Printable version of thread
Click here to view this topic in its original format
BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ Have your politics shifted?
Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 10th September 2022, 06:08 AM
This is the News and Politics forum so I think it should be appropriate here.
In the past decade, a lot has happened in the English speaking Western world, and people's opinions have shifted all over the place. I also have a feeling that the overall mood here has changed, compared for example to 2013 when I first joined. Back then, I did a poll here about people's politics, and if I remember correctly many of you said you were centre-left or 'Blairite'. I don't know if it's still true now.
Anyway, have you changed? If yes, then how?
Posted by: J00prstar 10th September 2022, 10:15 AM
Great topic! I will have to have a think about what to put & come back later.
Posted by: Izzy 💀☄ 11th September 2022, 07:30 AM
Yes - though if you described me as centre-left at any point you wouldn't be too far wrong*. I was very liberal with a peak in 2017, then I went more left over the course of 2019 as I broke with the idea that capitalism could ever be successfully reformed, and have stayed there since, though with a few minor course corrections to that I wouldn't say have moved my views away from far-left thought, but rather have coalesced into the most achievable means to enact leftist philosophy into achievable political policy.
*because, in most modern democracies, the predominant political left force is a social democratic party, not a party of true leftism, but having them in power is always preferable to a centre-right or right-wing continuation of capitalism, and prolonged periods of socdems in power is far more likely to lead to long-term popular acceptance of leftist ideals and the removal of capitalism, I do not subscribe to accelerationism in any form.
Why? Mostly engaging with political content online and seeing the long-term effects of neoliberalism and Western hegemony on other parts of the world. It also fits into the somewhat uncomfortable underlying thoughts I had about the system while studying for my IR masters, I have a more consistent and defensible worldview now and that's better for me. And it provides humane answers to the upcoming struggles that will be forthcoming with the climate crisis.
I might have been okay with describing myself as Blairite several years ago, not now. It's clear there needs to be more radical change to our system if it is to be fixed.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 15th September 2022, 09:58 PM
Great topic - thanks for starting it. : )
Hmm, well I have definitely changed over time. First I would like to say that changing your opinion / political stance is healthy, and people should not be ‘shamed’ or feel awkward having a different or contradictory opinion many years ago to the one they have now, the journey can be important and it makes sense to change or develop your view based upon new information- ultimately that’s how we progress. That is why I dislike so much of social media really but that’s a whole different topic altogether..
I would say that my journey has been pretty similar to Iz. Started out pretty politically unengaged but I guess would have described myself as socially very liberal but quite centre or centre right economically- essentially I was quite Lib Dem (hello Liz!) and voted for them when I first got the chance to vote but really didn't care that much about politics, until that is we had ‘I agree with Nick’ breaking the promise that they would scrap tuition fees… plus the GFC of 2008/2009 when I realised how much the whole entire system of capitalism was broken (crony capitalism rampant) and how this had worsened inequality in our society, this being accelerated further through the 2010s “lost decade”, and was something that the recent pandemic has shown a further light on IMO where we seem to value work inversely proportionally to its actual importance to society.
At the time (early 2010s) I had a friend at work who ended up having his weekly mental health support cut because of the Tory/Lib Dem coalition. I witnessed how much he was suffering as a result- ultimately he ended up unemployed, back living in a house share in Leeds and thoroughly depressed. I went up to watch the 2015 election result with him in the vague hope of getting Chaos with Ed Miliband, and distinctly remember his housemate shouting the F-word really loudly when the exit poll came in. That night was one of the most depressing of my life.
Straight after that election, I went to see Owen Jones in (‘The People’s Republic of’) Bury St Edmunds in May 2015 and started a full sub of Private Eye, both of which got me politically engaged and since then of course we had six years of chaos with .. er, well not Ed Miliband! I joined our union at work and started to engage with that, including become labelled as militant by engaging in strike action in February 2016 on equal pay. I lost a day of pay to travel to Westminster to march and then spend the afternoon in the HoC to lobby MPs. We did briefly get to speak to the MP for Exeter Ben Bradshaw who was excellent and got Jo Johnson (then head of BEIS) to take note of us.. a year later we won our strike action by getting the pay deal that allowed men and women meteorologists to be paid the same. I’ve also starting watching and supporting left media such as Novaramedia — basically Ash Sarkar has radicalised me! I’ve become much more economically left over time to the point, but only to where I feel like much of the public are now anyway, where I think nationalisation of rail, energy, water should be an immediate priority, especially as we need to rapidly decarbonise and head towards a more sustainable future and wealth should be much more heavily taxed.
What gives me hope is that talking to many of the younger generation coming through now at work (those born post 1996) they seem to be fairly politically engaged already and seemingly share a lot of the same political views, so at some point the demographics must become favourable for a more socially liberal and economically left government to be elected but just not right now sadly. After all, this whole 'you become more right wing with age' thing isn't really holding anymore, nor did it ever (see below).
So yeah, I’ve been on quite a political journey in the past 12 years - a different direction to our current PM tho.
Posted by: slowdown73 16th September 2022, 09:27 AM
I voted leave in Brexit but deeply regret this. I think Brexit was a massive mistake which will cost us dearly. I still despise the Tories but more than ever since the Johnson era. However, I am more disillusioned with the position of the Labour Party presently. They have so much opportunity right now to wipe the floor with the Tories but sadly I fear by the next GE we will remain stuck with the Tories being the biggest party.
Posted by: Jessie Where 16th September 2022, 11:02 AM
Hmmm, I don't know really. When I voted in my first election at the age of 18 I voted Labour despite knowing nothing whatsoever about politics, simply because it was the opposite of what my Dad believed in and knew it had to be the right thing. 
I've definitely became a lot more engaged and interested since 2010 though, and it's just been constant heartbreaking disappointment since then unfortunately.
Posted by: JackTheeStallion 16th September 2022, 11:19 AM
This is the exact same as me, I've always voted Labour religiously and probably will continue to do so. I would actually say I agree with Green's policies more but unfortunately that will always feel like a wasted vote which we can't afford.
Posted by: Jade 16th September 2022, 12:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I've considered myself left wing for as long as I can remember. The earliest influence I can recall was taking an interest in my mum's tabloid of choice, The Daily Mirror, as a kid - which was a rare left-leaning one. I forget how young I was but it was definitely single-digit age. I was very into the news and wanted to read whatever I could get my hands on. I eventually broke away from that and turned my attention to the internet more instead, where I often found myself identifying with left circles. I think I've felt strong-minded about progressive stances for a very long time. Studying the world around me in the news and sociology in general helped to form my voting intentions when I was old enough. I was still 17 for the 2015 election, so voting to stay in the EU was my first experience at the polling station and I've voted Labour since. The current era is hardly the most inspiring, although as Jack says it often feels like a two-party system, so they're usually the logical choice for where I live.
Posted by: Steve201 16th September 2022, 05:07 PM
Hmm, well I have definitely changed over time. First I would like to say that changing your opinion / political stance is healthy, and people should not be ‘shamed’ or feel awkward having a different or contradictory opinion many years ago to the one they have now, the journey can be important and it makes sense to change or develop your view based upon new information- ultimately that’s how we progress. That is why I dislike so much of social media really but that’s a whole different topic altogether..
I would say that my journey has been pretty similar to Iz. Started out pretty politically unengaged but I guess would have described myself as socially very liberal but quite centre or centre right economically- essentially I was quite Lib Dem (hello Liz!) and voted for them when I first got the chance to vote but really didn't care that much about politics, until that is we had ‘I agree with Nick’ breaking the promise that they would scrap tuition fees… plus the GFC of 2008/2009 when I realised how much the whole entire system of capitalism was broken (crony capitalism rampant) and how this had worsened inequality in our society, this being accelerated further through the 2010s “lost decade”, and was something that the recent pandemic has shown a further light on IMO where we seem to value work inversely proportionally to its actual importance to society.
At the time (early 2010s) I had a friend at work who ended up having his weekly mental health support cut because of the Tory/Lib Dem coalition. I witnessed how much he was suffering as a result- ultimately he ended up unemployed, back living in a house share in Leeds and thoroughly depressed. I went up to watch the 2015 election result with him in the vague hope of getting Chaos with Ed Miliband, and distinctly remember his housemate shouting the F-word really loudly when the exit poll came in. That night was one of the most depressing of my life.
Straight after that election, I went to see Owen Jones in (‘The People’s Republic of’) Bury St Edmunds in May 2015 and started a full sub of Private Eye, both of which got me politically engaged and since then of course we had six years of chaos with .. er, well not Ed Miliband! I joined our union at work and started to engage with that, including become labelled as militant by engaging in strike action in February 2016 on equal pay. I lost a day of pay to travel to Westminster to march and then spend the afternoon in the HoC to lobby MPs. We did briefly get to speak to the MP for Exeter Ben Bradshaw who was excellent and got Jo Johnson (then head of BEIS) to take note of us.. a year later we won our strike action by getting the pay deal that allowed men and women meteorologists to be paid the same. I’ve also starting watching and supporting left media such as Novaramedia — basically Ash Sarkar has radicalised me! I’ve become much more economically left over time to the point, but only to where I feel like much of the public are now anyway, where I think nationalisation of rail, energy, water should be an immediate priority, especially as we need to rapidly decarbonise and head towards a more sustainable future and wealth should be much more heavily taxed.
What gives me hope is that talking to many of the younger generation coming through now at work (those born post 1996) they seem to be fairly politically engaged already and seemingly share a lot of the same political views, so at some point the demographics must become favourable for a more socially liberal and economically left government to be elected but just not right now sadly. After all, this whole 'you become more right wing with age' thing isn't really holding anymore, nor did it ever (see below).
So yeah, I’ve been on quite a political journey in the past 12 years - a different direction to our current PM tho.
Very eloquently put DB!
Can I ask why on Earth do male and female meteorologists get different pay in the first place??
Posted by: Harve 16th September 2022, 05:10 PM
I don't think my views have changed so much but my attitude definitely has. While I see flaws with distance, I really liked Nicola Sturgeon as FM when I lived in Scotland but Scottish politics has a limited sphere of influence and there's nobody equally likeable and powerful in France or England. Now that anyone whose views chime with mine feels quite irrelevant, I feel a lot more jaded with the mainstream. A lot of it is to do with Keir Starmer and I just don't trust a government of his to make life better for someone like me (always a question I am wondering as I weigh up whether to stay in France), even if an election of a Labour government feels more likely than is normally the case.
Posted by: Chez Wombat 16th September 2022, 05:36 PM
I wouldn't say my politics have shifted, but in my mid-teens, I was pretty woefully misinformed, went along with media headlines or relied on my family's views. I have always ensured to keep informed and understanding of the issues. I think it's extremely important for people, especially younger, to take an interest in politics, form their own opinions of events, and crucially, vote. Sadly, I can see how some can be disheartened with the current system we live in. I've moved from a safe Labour seat to a safe Conservative seat so saying 'your vote matters' or getting any meaningful change in this case can be a little hard to convince. I really want to vote for a party whose policies align with my own like the Green Party, but instead, I feel like I have to go with an average Labour side just because the alternative is hellish.
I would identify as liberal/socialist in many aspects, but I do hate how politics is such a toxic and reactionary thing these days, there's no room for middle ground or debate anymore, just left vs right, everyone on the other side is against you. Maybe it was always like this and I was just too young to notice, but I feel politics is really missing a bit of nuance and empathy these days.
Posted by: Silas 16th September 2022, 06:17 PM
Like many other I started my life as a LibDem voter. I backed mighty Ming as he was generally seen as an excellent local MP. After they shacked up with the Tories and ahead of Holyrood when I was still a unionist, I did one of those political alignment quiz things and found out that what I really believed was probably closer in line with the SNP, so while still voting LibDem on the constituency ballot, the nationalists got my list vote. Should add that I grew up in a daily mail house. All of this should be viewed through that lens. My folks voted no, leave and for the Tories.
Like basically everyone my age who grew up in Scotland 2014 was my political awakening. As the campaign went on I believed more and more of the future that was being laid out by the SNP. While I would have preferred at the time to vote for Devo Max, I ended up voting Yes but it was a tough choice. 2014 and the events that followed radicalised me into a full blooded nationalist and Europhile - to the extent that faced with a choice of leave the EU or leave the UK I chose to say f***itybye to the UK and I have a countdown on until the day when I can submit my application for citizenship (and I will give up my UK Citizenship to get it if I need to). I generally come down quite to the left on the majority of items and would probably identify as a social Democrat and the progressive centre-left platform.
I have backed SNP in every election since except when I was in manc in 2017 and voted Labour because anything else was pointless. Tho I did vote green instead of Burnham for mayor (he was my second preference but the green actually had better plans for metrolink).
Still working out my exact home in German politics, probably the SPD, but I have a couple of years to work that out. Hoping that I will be able to vote in the next Federal election in 3 years time. So fingers crossed please y’all that the new citizenship laws actually get sorted and come into effect early next year as planned
Posted by: dandy* 16th September 2022, 06:17 PM
I think I have shifted over the years. From my teens until about my mid 30s I passionately supported anything that felt fair and as such was always on the left side of politics. I still feel I'm left of centre, however I've grown much more aware of how difficult it can be to change things and how it is important to actually focus on something that feasibly can make a real difference. I now feel that people with (what I would think of as) sound moral values are split across lots of issues and consequently get smothered by the traditional people who benefit from how things are.
I've also learnt just how horrendous the media is and how much it emphasises and encourages a state where the rich continue to benefit at the expense of everyone else. But then I also find myself equally despairing at social media and the way it literally gives anyone a voice. Politics is no different to any other career path to me, it is genuinely best commented on by those who have studied it and I would rather trust a select few who are impartial yet correctly informed to make decisions rather than have everything thrown out to the general public - I think Brexit has taught us the pitfalls with letting everyone and anyone have a voice about things they have no concept about.
I've also come to realise that a lot of the views of the left are really great in principle... however they are also pretty idealistic and often almost impossible to get through because of the sheer power of the people who are against them for their own benefit. I guess I've become a little bit disheartened - both in terms of the power of the few, but also the generally awful views of many people in the UK on most social subjects.
Posted by: JulianT 18th September 2022, 06:21 AM
I don’t know if I’m genuinely one of the only right leaning people on here or if, like me, most of the others are too scared to post about politics on here very often. But I’ve made the (not particularly unusual) journey from Lib Dem to libertarian conservative since I hit 30. Like dandy* I think life does tend to turn you from an idealist into a pragmatist, wherever that takes you.
Posted by: Smint 18th September 2022, 07:27 AM
I grew up in a conservative family and for most of my teenage years was very pro Tory as believed what they said were correct but when I went to university and met more left wing people I started a journey of getting more progressively left (with the odd bump on the way where I had sympathies for right wing policies which happened to coincide with a low point in my personal life) and now absolutely despise the Tories for their cruelty, the way they try and denigrate minorities and oh their policies just don't work (apart from a small minority). More than any Tory politician I think the worst cancer on society is our foreign owned press namely The Mail, The Express, The Telegraph, The Sun and despite the occasional worthy piece of journalism The Times.
That said with regard to voting I am pragmatic than idealistic and favour proportional representation and voting Lib Dem where necessary to get the Tories out - also like their policis about drug legalisation. Although Starmer is disappointing in that he tends to dance to the right wing tune on many issues and in a very patronising way, I think he is our only hope to overcome the worst PM of all time we currently have who is pushing through damaging divisive authoritarian policies.
In my personal life I am considering getting more involved with Climate activism as that is the most important policy that affects us all and our future. Currently I plan to do non-arrestable actions but I fully admire those who do get arrested. They are the real heroes of our generation and maybe one day I will join them.
Posted by: Izzy 💀☄ 18th September 2022, 07:46 AM
I would hope this isn't the case. Anyone and everyone is welcome to speak up, besides, any form of silent majority is undefined until they speak. Any right-wingers that do speak up must be treated nicely. They're not the enemy, the people at least. The politicians are a different matter.
~
Separate to that, seeing as how it's a common theme in this thread to speak of pragmatism over idealism, I myself did the same, it's worth saying that the most effective form of pragmatic politics that you can personally take part in in order that what is idealistic now can eventually become possible is convincing others to your views - effective advocacy. Somehow this is often framed as being something you Should Not Do ("everyone's entitled to their views"), but that's nonsense, convincing people is the whole point of politics. That's not evil or surreptitious, that's how demagogues like Farage wormed their way into political relevance, that's what the media is always doing, we should do it too.
That means reasoned and fair discussions with people, letting them talk and showing them that your way is correct by finding what it is they most care about. Some people can't be reasoned with, but many can. The way to a better government is through that happening on a mass scale and I would encourage you all to be thinking about what activism you can take part in for the next election, if you're not already doing so.
endnote: posting online is the least effective form of advocacy and on a wider scale so many of the loudest and biggest political accounts seem to be so bad at it.
other endnote: do not mistake pragmatism for overcautiousness
Posted by: Smint 18th September 2022, 08:11 AM
Although I see that posting online in itself is a weak form of advocacy if that is the only thing one does, I do find it useful to be informed and hear the arguments about certain issues I wouldn't normally hear from the media as those voices are often silenced. It often helps when posting to clarify one's owns thoughts about a particular issue.
One thing should do (and must make a resolution to do this) is to write to MPs about issues that I care about as that in some cases seems to make a difference - ie Partygate, the Owen Patterson rule change. I always live in Labour seats but still it's the principle of political engagement that is important.
Posted by: Liаm 18th September 2022, 11:43 AM
I suppose in a way some parts of my engagement and passion have changed, I don't think my actual views have changed, I've always been pretty left-wing, I did sociology for 7 years across school and uni and I think that helped shape me a lot too and cemented me in my ways a bit more, learning about the world and how systematic a lot of injustices are. I have always voted Labour (since the 2015 election when I was old enough) but I am definitely more disillusioned with them of late. There isn't a suitable alternative for me really, Lib Dem I have increasingly thought fit me more, but it's difficult to waste a vote on them at least where I live where they are nowhere near overtaking our Conservative MP. Oddly I think kind of the more disillusioned I am with the the actual party I identified with, and the more unsure I feel about what my alternative would be, I have become more and more passionate and involved and switched-on with what's going on, I guess because being disillusioned is such a frustrating feeling that fans a flame in you to want things to change.
Had Jeremy Corbyn gone down better, I would feel different, it's his kind of Labour I want not a so far centre he's almost right leader in Kier Starmer
Posted by: dannjohn 18th September 2022, 04:11 PM
i do honestly think we should abolish parties like Tory and Labour as it feels like nowadays that we seem more alligned with a singular individual (like Boris) than the party at a whole.
And as times have passed, the policies of each party changes and slightly becomes more alligned. Like realistically what is the difference between Labour and Conservative at this point? Aside from Corbyn, I feel most of Labour would shift to Tory if given the opportunity.
Posted by: Scary Spiceboy 19th October 2022, 06:49 PM
Not really in terms of voting, I voted Labour the first time I could and I have continued to vote them ever since. I did consider voting Lib Dems when Nick Clegg was running as I liked their manifesto the most but I felt it would be a wasted vote and have always been hugely anti-tory, also I was one of the few (it seems) who actually liked Gordon Brown and thought he could have done a good job given a proper chance.
I would probably say I lean more towards Green Party now but again I feel they are a wasted vote, sadly I cannot stand Starmer but Labour will still get my vote. I was a big Corbyn supporter and the way the media treated him was utterly disgusting, I did think he got it a bit wrong though pushing free wifi for everyone as one of his promises, it wasn't exactly something which made people go "must vote him!"
Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th October 2022, 10:30 PM
Sorry Steve, I meant to reply sooner!
It's less to do with different pay for the same role, but essentially was part of an archaic government mandated pay progression scheme, which essentially rewards length of service over contribution. This penalises those who take either part-time work due to caring commitments or maternity leave- which disproportionately affects women. Gender pay gap is not just about that but also about the proportion of those in more senior roles and how unbalanced that has become, with shift work (nights etc.) tending to filter out women before they reach the Chief Meteorologist role - I think there has only ever been 2 women working at that level in over 150 years (!) Though we do now have a woman as Chief Exec.- Penny Endersby..
Posted by: Steve201 20th October 2022, 09:33 PM
Ah I see, like most job especially in government then, thanks for the clarification. I mean it’s not like it’s a woman’s fault they are child bearers (mainly) but then a work place has to function so needs a reliable employee, it’s a difficult thing. At least we are in a better position than 30/40 years ago.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 30th December 2022, 04:45 PM
Good to have ppl here with differing views - always welcome to this forum!
Interesting that both you and Dandy* have made the political journey of becoming more conservative with time. It appears that this traditional link may have been broken since Gen X (see interesting chart from John Burn-Murdoch). I'd be interested in your opinion on why that might be? I have some theories, but it is an interesting development that I've noticed..
