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Posted by: Brett-Butler 28th January 2020, 07:51 AM

General thread to talk about all things trains, a topic that is likely to be high on the agenda over the next few years due to the prospect of renationalisation, fares being a hot political potato, as well as the prospect of reversing the cuts imposed by my mortal nemesis, Dr Beeching.

To start things off, the government has announced today that they have created a £500 million fund to https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51272817 closed by the Beeching cuts in the 60s. Although as some have suggested, that amount is a drop on the ocean compared to the cost of properly reversing those cuts, and it's worth noting that one of the stations highlighted for re-opening, Fleetwood, does have a tram service, and isn't on the list of largest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_towns_in_England_without_a_railway_station.

Basically, I won't be satisfied until the number of towns on that list has at least halved before the end of this current government's term. Yes, I have no intention of visiting Gosport, Canvey or Dunstable, but it's the principle, darn it.

Posted by: vidcapper 28th January 2020, 08:17 AM

Four of Cheltenham's then five stations were closed, and the land the tracks occupied have been built upon, so re-opening is not an option here.

Posted by: coi 28th January 2020, 08:34 AM

I’ve been to both Gosport and Dunstable actually! And yes, I’d rather use a train than a bus link.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th January 2020, 09:11 AM

Scottish Government recently announced funding to open the Branch line to Leven, one of the largest catchments in central Scotland not to have a rail line. Campaigners have been trying to get the line to St Andrews reopened as well.

Generally I’m a fan of more transport infrastructure. The only way to effectively decarbonise our transport is through a robust, electrified, network of heavy and light rail.

The line to Inverness should be double track the whole way, and arguably triple track to allow for a freight line to remove trucks from the roads. HS2 is a matter of priority, all the way to Aberdeen, because it unlocks much needed capacity on over congested main lines and allows for an increase in service patterns. Privatisation is a failure in its current form, there is extremely little competition on routes and thus very little desire to compete on rail fares. Should be nationalised in my opinion but that’s more to do with my view that essential infrastructure should be state owned and operated on a non-profit basis (see NI Water or Scottish Water). We also need more ambitious funding of light rail and other rapid transit schemes.

Cheap, reliable and accessible public transport is essential to social mobility and regeneration. Big infrastructure projects are also great for helping stave off a recession

Posted by: Harve 28th January 2020, 09:46 PM

Leeds is the biggest city in Europe without a light rail/metro system.

Posted by: blacksquare 29th January 2020, 01:23 PM

The timing of this thread...

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 29th January 2020, 03:19 PM

Unbelievable how that's exactly what Labour were gonna do, and they got widely lampooned for it by the Tories.

You can't make it up.

Posted by: *Tim 29th January 2020, 03:22 PM

When I was in the UK I was highkey shook by the prices of travelling. O can pretty much travel from Amsterdam to Barcelona by train with some of the prices!

Posted by: Wall 29th January 2020, 03:29 PM

Dundee to glasgow is £25 one way. I got return flights for Budapest for £20 last week. It’s shocking .

Posted by: *Tim 29th January 2020, 03:32 PM

I can get through the whole of belgium for €6 :')

Posted by: *CENSORED* 29th January 2020, 03:55 PM

wasn't there a story about some guy travelling within the UK who paid less for a journey via PARIS than directly from point A to point B?

Posted by: blacksquare 29th January 2020, 03:57 PM

I'm sure they'll sell it for little profit again in the future — rather than seeing it as an example of privatised rail failing. It's ridiculous. Just how are they going to pay for it?



Similarly, I spent less on flights to Italy and an hour train in Italy than I did getting an hour train from London last week.

Posted by: *Tim 29th January 2020, 04:39 PM

I remember a story about a flght to mainland europe and back to get to work was cheaper lmao

Posted by: Klaus 29th January 2020, 04:49 PM

The state of our trains mean it's probably quicker to do that too...

Took me three hours on Sunday to go from A-B by train, when by car it would have taken just over an hour!!

Posted by: Harve 29th January 2020, 06:54 PM

wtfock they raised it from €5

Posted by: *Tim 29th January 2020, 06:56 PM

Yes! I was angry! About to start a riot!

Posted by: Iz~ 30th January 2020, 02:10 AM

I can get halfway across a Chinese province in times of health (each on average just a bit smaller than the UK) for 40 yuan (£4.40). Hopping on a fancy fast train to Beijing that's 80km away is still only 55.

Prices are only really ridiculous in the UK to my knowledge - and in Japan but by god they actually deserve it and it's still a little cheaper than the UK. What should have happened was that the UK should have done the same as Japan in the 60s (no excuses, it's an island country about the same size) and made huge investments in the train industry to create a well managed network that could either be managed by the government or given to well trusted companies - I don't know all that much about the details of Japan's privatization but it's clearly one country where doing that worked, as I said, the only really bad thing about them is that it's expensive but it's the best train service I've ever been on so it deserves that. It's more common in Japan for small towns to have a train station than it is in the UK and that makes it very easy to access. UK system feels archaic in comparison.

I do hope that more lines can be built and maintained, and that there is an effort to invest further in the train system to make it more usable. If the government were forward-thinking at all, they could make Northern Rail a shining example of efficiency in public control and then should it ever need to be privatised, the standard would already be there.

Posted by: Harve 30th January 2020, 03:12 AM

Good article from Stephen Bush https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2020/01/real-problem-northern-rail-government-not-train-companies, about why it is not necessarily train companies' fault when they deliver poor services.

It should also be added to the bold sentence that Network Rail, a subsidiary of the Department for Transport, and not the train companies, are responsible for track infrastructure, most station infrastructure and some station day-to-day management. And the most successful franchises are those that manage single lines, rather than complex, multi-line networks where one delay creates multiple knock-on delays - this is what can determine whether a railway is a failure or not.

Posted by: vidcapper 30th January 2020, 05:56 AM

'Leaves on the line'?
'Wrong sort of snow'?

Posted by: The S***e 31st January 2020, 05:30 PM

Obviously that's assuming Scotland is still part of the UK by then!

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 06:13 PM

The inevitable freedom for Scotland won’t stop the fact that people will need a fast and reliable connection to major cities in England, especially as we try to decarbonise travel

Posted by: Doctor Blind 31st January 2020, 10:49 PM

This from Lewis Goodall basically sums up my thoughts on trains in the UK.

Posted by: Steve201 1st February 2020, 02:38 AM

I'm from Ireland we don't do railways here.....

Posted by: Suedehead2 1st February 2020, 08:18 AM

The same applies to the electricity companies.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 1st February 2020, 10:58 AM

Don't I know it. Still annoyed that 3 of the 6 counties don't have rail links, and the links to the rest of the island are terrible unless you're going to the major cities. I might be at an event this month with our new Minister for Infrastructure. I will be sure to put in a word to her about my lovely ideas for trains.

Posted by: Steve201 1st February 2020, 12:48 PM

I take it you've saw the map of the best train journey to get from Derry to Sligo?

Posted by: Brett-Butler 1st February 2020, 02:50 PM

I did, and it broke my heart.

Posted by: Steve201 1st February 2020, 06:23 PM

Read an article about the closing of the County Down railway in 1950 the other week and how stupid a decision it was especially as it went all the way into east Belfast via Downpatrick & Comber and would have been hugely important for traffic heading into belfast today.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 10th February 2020, 10:14 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51443421

Posted by: *Tim 11th February 2020, 11:02 AM

Dutch power

Posted by: Silas EU Later 11th February 2020, 11:48 AM

I am keeping my fingers crossed. It’s too short and lacks HS1 and HS3 Integration but it is really needed


Don’t cheer too loudly, Abellio are not universally popular. Particularly in Scotland where the government has cut the franchise short

Posted by: Crazy Chris 11th February 2020, 04:00 PM

It's much cheaper if you travel off-peak, say after 9am and book online in advance though, even just a couple of days in advance. How many long-distance journeys are just spur of the moment after all? Haven't been on a train since my mum died in 2016 but used to pre-book London to Sheffield for about £25 return and to just travel on the day could be near £100.

Posted by: *Tim 11th February 2020, 04:13 PM

What kind of logic is that though? Why do prices rise? Last minute travelling should also be encouraged

Posted by: Crazy Chris 11th February 2020, 04:17 PM

I don't know to be honest. Just perks for people who can book in advance. The further in advance you book the cheaper the tickets are too. You can get some great bargains. The only time I paid full was my dad was dying so had to get there fast one Friday morning at peak-time. Cost a fortune.

Posted by: Silas EU Later 12th February 2020, 06:37 AM

Not being funny but Dundee to Glasgow is hardly a long trip that needs a lot of pre-planning. None of the central belt cities are particularly far apart and Dundee is at the edge of the Glasgow and Edinburgh commuter belts. Like the absolute edge but it’s still possible. It is totally reasonable to turn up on the day and expect not to be fleeced for Intra-Scotland travel. Especially within the central belt

Posted by: Crazy Chris 12th February 2020, 08:09 AM

Yes I agree.

Posted by: PeteFromLeeds 12th February 2020, 06:03 PM

Genuinely devastated at the decision on HS2, no amount of fast trains can bring back the wildlife and green areas that are going to be destroyed in the process.

Posted by: Silas EU Later 12th February 2020, 06:11 PM

The alternative is Car or Plane. How many trees and wildlife will they kill?

Posted by: coi 12th February 2020, 06:12 PM

Or just a longer train journey

Posted by: PeteFromLeeds 12th February 2020, 06:19 PM

The fact that people are quite happy to tear down ancient woodlands, dig up acres of green land and tear right through the middle of nature reserves for the convenience of a few hours less on the train really shows what a selfish generation I live in. Organisations like the RSPB are doing their very best to preserve what little we have left (we've lost over 40 billion birds since 1966) and then the government just come and bulldoze over all of it with this terribly thought through plan. I despair.

(It's taken me a day to get over this and this post has completely riled me up again, please don't provoke me because this is the one issue above all I have VERY strong opinions on even if I don't have a particularly elegant way of backing it up)

Posted by: Harve 12th February 2020, 08:35 PM

A lecturer when I was at uni commuted Dundee-Glasgow by train every day (or maybe 4 times per week) and I just don't know why you'd torture yourself like that.

Posted by: Silas EU Later 12th February 2020, 08:40 PM

I had a mate who commuted from Fife to Aberdeen each day for well over a year. I think we’re just wired weirdly same friend also did mid-Fife to Stirling daily for a while as well.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th March 2021, 09:36 PM

This follows Wales taking their network back into public ownership last month: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54635421

I've always argued for renationalisation, now we can put that argument to the test.

Posted by: Quarantilas 18th March 2021, 07:43 AM

Been expecting that since they announced that the break clause would be used and the contract terminated early. Good to see. Now if we can get network rail on our side of the border handed over to us too, along with the relevant cash, we’d really be cooking with gas. Finally the line to Aberdeen could be electrified

Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th November 2021, 06:08 AM

With HS3 being cancelled, and part of HS2 dropped.. the UK not likely to improve this statistic much in the next few decades:

Posted by: Rooney 19th November 2021, 09:18 AM

It's a joke, people accept the substandard train lines we have. The fact is, the majority of the lines were built in a different time and are not fit for purpose in todays climate. Yes it is expensive, time consuming and will piss off a load of villages, but it's for the good of the country. The new plans yesterday were really poor and they don't go any way to fixing how do you truly connect the east and west of the North through the Pennines.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st November 2021, 08:53 AM

It's not all doom and gloom though- the Dartmoor line from Exeter to Okehampton (or SOAKhampton as the locals call it...) officially reopened yesterday with a 2 hr'ly service reinstated 7 days a week. More of these Beeching cut lines to reopen please!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-59358794

Exeter will also get a SEVENTH train station with the opening of Marsh Barton next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Barton_railway_station

Posted by: Quarantilas 21st November 2021, 12:05 PM

That is great news. I understand that the track was still laid so it was a fairly easy branch to reinstate in comparison some of the others that have now been constructed on and such like.

I am really looking forward to more lines reopening and being reconnected to the network. It was a tragedy that so much of the network was decimated to the extent it was

Posted by: Doctor Blind 11th June 2022, 06:20 PM

Ash Sarkar -as always - doing the lords work on Good Morning Britain. *.*
'Every single person in this country has benefitted from rights which have been secured by trade unions.' - a talking point rarely had in the British media sphere when strikes take place.

Posted by: Steve201 11th June 2022, 11:37 PM

^^This!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 12th June 2022, 08:53 AM

One of the many heated discussions about Brexit I had with left-leaning pro-Brexit supporters back in 2016/7 was that I knew it would lead to economic hard times and Right-wing nutjob attacks on rights of workers and the less-well-off. The EU were regarded as the enemy, where I believed the Tory Party were the main danger and we'd all be worse off. To which the response was, and I quote, "I DON'T CARE!".

And so we are where we are. That's what you get when you believe the propaganda of billionaires and their lap dogs and the lies. I've watched Council Union membership shrink to very minor rates since the 80's. We never get RPI wage rises and never manage to do anything about job cuts (inevitably disastrous results and truth twisting subsequently). Hmmm, maybe there's a link....

Posted by: Smint 12th June 2022, 09:12 AM

One of the ironies of the Brexit votes is that the constituencies which voted for Brexit (Northren and Midland towns) will do far worse than Remain hubs like London. Mind you the evidence was there and repeated ad nauseum- they chose to believe the populist charlatan and buy into the Mail/Express/Sun nonsense.

Posted by: Rooney 20th June 2022, 02:28 PM

I don't support all strikes, but equally I think unless you are in the 1%, there are some strikes you should be supportive of.

Now reading between the lines this has been pitched as all about pay, but it appears it's only a small part. The worst bit about this strike for me is how the Government are using this to turn worker vs worker. I am not sure what percentage increase the Union is asking for, but being such a big union I don't think they would be asking for 10-11%. The private sector looks to have settled on 4-5%.

Just think the Government have got to do something to get ahead of this, otherwise come September there will be other strikes. But part of me does think they actively want strikes to turn the people against the Unions.

Posted by: T Boy 20th June 2022, 03:24 PM

Out of interest, which strike actions do you not support?

Posted by: Izzy 💀☄ 21st June 2022, 09:27 AM

Yep, and they'll always do that. It's incumbent upon all workers who need better pay due to the cost-of-living crisis to support the rail strikes. Even with minor inconvenience. The government have been working in tandem with business to try and frame this as the workers being selfish for demanding better pay.

I hope that the fact that everyone knows they need it, that the RMT are being as clear as possible that this isn't about high-paid train drivers (very few of whom are in the RMT from what I've read), will have public support high and galvanize other unions to threaten strike action until the government does do something.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 30th June 2022, 01:06 AM

On the rail strikes - public support has actually increased over the past week. Mick Lynch is a fantastic communicator, a complete breath of fresh air!

I wish we had some politicians that could speak as clearly and directly as he has, cutting through all the tired media attack lines.

Posted by: cider man 3rd July 2022, 05:38 PM

Train fares have rocketed. I used to book a couple of weeks in advance return from London to Barnsley via Sheffield and could get for £23. Could even get £15 by booking more in advance. Haven't been since mum died in early 2016 though. Now it's £55 minimum, some days £80 return.

The coach is just £7.50 return but takes 5 hours and you can't take dogs. Always took Evie to my mum's.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st July 2022, 09:12 PM

It's not only expensive, it's very confusing. There are so many different rules and permutations of tickets (Advance/Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak) and then pricing itself is constantly inconsistent with people travelling on the exactly the same train at the same time paying widely varying prices. The whole thing needs to be completely ripped up and restarted.

The railway could be utilised so much more effectively to improve our society, help meet our net zero commitments, and it would command strong public support and yet very little progress has been made sadly. You get those absolute MELTS moaning about how the railways have to be subsidised but they are a public good benefitting us all indirectly or directly, which you cannot put a price on. It's like the road network and you don't get people moaning about the roads failing to make a profit.

Anyway our lovely government have just changed to law to allow something that they criticised P&O Ferries for doing only a few months ago, impacting on those who only want to see their wages match the increases in cost of living. Fuck the lot of these absolute goons.

Posted by: Popchartfreak 22nd July 2022, 09:19 AM

If it was a criminal offence to go on strike then Tories would be rounding everyone up and bunging them in prison, ahead of bringing in the end of democracy and a one-party state.

Of course, that also assumes there are hordes of unemployed workers just on the edge of their seats waiting for the call to learn some skilled job in 20seconds flat. Which, thanks to Brexit, is not the case. I'm sure Quasi Farting would wish that were the reality, but it's more of a threat thing and playing to the fanbase than something that is going to happen. Threat being: You Peasants will do as you are told and gratefully accept a drop in wages to make us more competitive because we have f***ed that up with Brexit and we have no other answers on how to deal with it.

Bankers dont go on strike cos they tend to pay RPI and annual bonuses for screwing the Peasants. Plus the staff just move to another bank. There's loads of 'em, tax-payer supported as it turns out. Oh that's right, rich Right-wingers are in favour of saving banks if they go tits up....not that it would worry them though, their cash is mostly stuffed in Tax havens or property...

Posted by: Brett-Butler 11th May 2023, 07:39 AM

The government has nationalised another rail service by proxy - the TransPennine Express has lost its contract for the North of England and parts of Scotland.

Posted by: Smint 11th May 2023, 11:21 AM

Rail privatisation a rounding success isn't it - why the hell can't Labour back nationalisation?

Posted by: Silas 11th May 2023, 02:58 PM

TPE has long been one of the worst services in the UK. Second only to Northern

Posted by: dandy* 11th May 2023, 06:10 PM

One of the few times I've tried to use the TPE I was in Manchester waiting to catch it across to Leeds when it was announced that it wouldn't be arriving due to the train accidentally going to the wrong station in Manchester.

Posted by: Rooney 11th May 2023, 07:08 PM

Northern has got a lot better. Transpennine is absolutely shocking though, their fleet of trains are shocking and the trains are always way over crowded.

Scrapping HS3 was a massive joke as the whole service between Manchester-Leeds should be way more quicker and efficent than it is. It's a joke that it's actually quicker to drive that route than get the train.

Posted by: Smint 11th May 2023, 07:28 PM

I feel sorry for the Northerners as living in London transport is excellent (albeit pricey but that's Tory Britain for you) - moving further afield I regularly get the train down to Surrey, Bristol, Brighton etc too and never really have trouble (apart from the strikes). Real North/South divide there.

Posted by: steve201 11th May 2023, 07:34 PM

Does the London mayor not affect train prices in London though?

Posted by: Smint 11th May 2023, 07:41 PM

He does the best he can with the budget he can. Sadiq Khan has tried to keep prices down and there has been some good holds but at the end of the day if the Government grants are low then it will have to come from fares. Covid would have decimated those from 2020 onwards and still not back to full capacity nowadays with the hybrid/Work from Home arrangements.

Posted by: dandy* 11th May 2023, 09:37 PM

Travel in general has become so much more difficult since COVID. Before the pandemic I used to get a bus to Nottingham that ran hourly and took about 40 minutes.
Now we have a bus that takes about 75 minutes. I’m getting to the office about 3 hours after my alarm went off which is just ludicrous - but I do understand that it must be difficult to keep transport running at all now so many work from home, myself included part week.

Posted by: Jessie Where 11th May 2023, 10:11 PM

This made me properly laugh (although I'm sure that wasn't the intention!)

Posted by: Harve 11th May 2023, 11:42 PM

I hate to gloat* from a different country but it's not doomed to be bad - despite so many strikes, I feel like it's improved where I am locally? My city's bus network has improved leaps and bounds in the 5 years since I was first here with better frequency (every 10 minutes on three lines so it's just a case of turning up and waiting), a useable app with GPS tracking, ease of buying tickets, buses from 6am-1am, €1.50 fares taking you an hour out around the lake and into the surrounding mountains. Oh and everything is free in July and August. The public cycle scheme is amazing too. We're talking about a city of 130,000 with 30+ lines for the surrounding agglomeration and I think a UK city of that size wouldn't have much, and you'd end up needing a car. It's quite depressing as people will build their lives around cars in the absence of good transport, so even if the will and resources to improve things is there, the demand might not be.

Regional transport is still poor though.

*(actually I like it a bit)

Posted by: dandy* 12th May 2023, 11:41 AM

Oh no it totally was meant to - I think I even laughed at the time because of how ludicrous it was



And Harve - I suspect it's because I have to travel across the county. Things are generally okay in cities I feel, it's more when you have to travel to your nearest city for work but don't actually live there that the problems seem to start to have arisen again due to a lack of demand. The strikes haven't really impacted at all for me, it's just a change in culture since the pandemic with more people working from home and less people needing to use the public services. Private operators just can't make the routes pay sadly.

Posted by: J00prstar 12th May 2023, 11:53 AM

Tangentially, I'm on a 3h train ride today!

As for round my way, its the buses that have dropped off since lockdown. Now much pricier and reliably unreliable 🤡

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th May 2023, 04:44 PM

Agreed that TPE is woeful, the one time I used it to get from Leeds to Manchester it was, like you say, horrendously overcrowded and incredibly slow.

If the Tories and Johnson really were serious about 'levelling up' beyond the gimmicky soundbite that it was, then they would have prioritised HS3 and actually made the Manchester-Leeds high speed rail connection the one that was completed first, and also worked on the Manchester-Sheffield link. The economic benefits would be realised much sooner and I'd argue it would do a lot more for economic growth than the high speed link from London to Birmingham that might be completed by the end of the 2030s (if we're lucky..)



The UK railway network has always generally been unprofitable, there are routes that generate a profit but these are heavily subsidising the lesser used routes that can often be much more expensive to maintain but which you could argue are maybe even more vital to those that do use it- that's been true whether publicly owned or in this public/private franchise hybrid model that we currently have. I'd make the case that something that is a public good shouldn't be run on the basis that it must always make a profit. What is irritating is that a lot of the franchises that run our rail network are really just foreign state-owned companies that use our government subsidy to subsidise rail travel in their own countries and not to actually invest in our railways.

This subsidy was given out throughout COVID - when running pretty much empty trains (I was the only passenger on the King's Cross to Cambridge train at lunch on 23 March 2020!) - and is continued to be given out on strike days so there is little to no incentive for these companies to improve the service nor improve the pay/wellbeing of their staff. They still get paid, on-time.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 25th April 2024, 12:59 PM

Policy spotted in the wild this morning from the Labour Party, and it's a very good and https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-train-operating-companise-be-brought-back-into-public-ownership, even among Conservative voters.
Now to extend that to water and energy please. x

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68889345

Posted by: Smint 25th April 2024, 05:40 PM

Wow that's a very rare actually decent policy from Labour. Most of Europe has nationalised rail and its fine and much cheaper than the UK. Maybe there's something to be said for not giving millions of public money to wealthy shareholders for essential services rather than investing, eh? Not that I expect prices to tumble but what a step in the right direction.

And very little right wing pushback. They know they've lost this one.

Posted by: Envoirment 29th April 2024, 11:47 PM

Hopefully we'll see more of these policies as the election comes closer. A very good policy to begin with that many people will agree to!