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Posted by: jupiter9 13th July 2006, 05:11 PM

Ok. Here's a really serious topic.

Hezbollah (sp?) are apparently set to transfer the kidnapped Israeli soldiers to Iran. I guess it's an understatement to say Israel will not take kindly to that.
Does anyone think this has the potential to really really escalate? ( as if things are not bad enough )

Any solutions to diffuse this situation?

Posted by: Ozzy Osbourne 13th July 2006, 05:38 PM

I think there should just be a war in the region between Israel and Palestine and other territories etc this tension has been building up for decades they should just sort out their problems once and for all, all this tit for tat stuff is just ridiculous really

Posted by: John 13th July 2006, 06:49 PM

Exactly, sometimes war is needed to find peace. It would clear the deck and settle things in my opinion.

Posted by: mushymanrob 14th July 2006, 05:20 PM

im very very bored of hearing about these people fighting, they will NEVER agree and live in peace, dispite their 'peaceful' religion.

so yes, i agree ozzy, just arm the mad bstds and let them kill eachother, but WITHOUT any interfereance from uncle sam... who will naturaly back isreal as the usa is run by people of isreali extraction!


seriously though, this is a problem that dates back decades, the deep seated, inherant hatred of eachother is not going to be 'sorted', it cant be, it wont.

the main concern to me is that it could easily be the catalyst that starts ww3. muslim nations backing the palestinians, america and the west backing isreal. its another crusade, christian vs muslim, both sides have 'gods' support of course

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 18th July 2006, 07:54 AM

You make some pretty good point there mate, but as far as I'm concerned the Zionists have caused nothing but trouble ever since they planted themselves there in the 1920s and actively sought to undermine the more controlled migration of Jews into Palestine from Europe that Britain and the French favoured... People seem to forget that it was Militant Zionists that started terrorism in the region, both against Arabs and against the British Mandate soldiers who were trying to protect Arabs in the 1940s...

When Britain and France were coerced to leave by the Americans (otherwise they'd've never gotten the much needed Marshall Plan aid...), the Zionists set about displacing the Palestinians off of their land in the most brutal fashion and basically making them refugees in their own country, forcing them to flee to Jordan, Syria, etc. This was effectively ethnic cleansing if you ask me.... In the 1970s, the UN itself declared that Zionism was another branch of Imperialism (which it is)...

The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers is just a feeble excuse (like the Gulf of Tonkin incident was an excuse for the US to plant itself in Vietnam) to attack and re-occupy South Lebanon, it's especially feeble when you take into account that Israel is illegally holding over 10,000 Arab prisoners - including women and children. The Israelis have no right to cry foul if their people are being kidnapped if you ask me... The Zionists have been planning this for years, ever since Hezbollah kicked them out six years ago. Hezbollah is situated in South Lebanon, and they play no part in Lebanese Govt policy-making, so what exactly is the justification for bombing Beirut, which is in the north of the country and is where the seat of Parliament is? The Lebanese Govt is Pro-West, I see absolutely no justification whatsoever for Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure and causing misery to the Lebanese people. All it will probably achieve is for Lebanese people who may not have been particularly sympathetic towards Hezbollah to just rally round them simply because their country is being attacked by an aggressive foreign power....

I suspect a revolution may occur in Lebanon and that the sh!t may really hit the fan...

Oh, and by the way mate, we already had WW3 - the proxy wars in Latin America, Asia and Indo-China/Cambodia which ran from the late 50s to the 70s were the WW3. I've been watching a really fascinating series on C4 called "War of the World" in which this Historian is putting across some really fascinating and pretty sound theories on the so-called "Cold War"....

Posted by: prettyinpink 18th July 2006, 01:41 PM

lets not forget who wrote the bible(old testement) what the bible is full of, and why. so the fight over that land has been going on for a good long time - it won't go away.

I cannot see how it can be resolved, but I am sure if Iran gets it's nuclear stuff uptodate, there could be a permanent solution

Posted by: John 18th July 2006, 04:40 PM

i saw that last night, it was very interesting

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 18th July 2006, 05:41 PM

Yeah, The Old Testament - written by Ancient Israelis so stands to reason that all this "promised land" guff would favour them; and this is the basis or all the Zionist's fanatacism... They're just as nutty as the Islamists....

When the Zionism movement started up in the late 19th Century it had honourable intentions in a similar vein to the US Black Civil Rights Movement and the NAACP in the 1950s and 60s, but somewhere, somehow, the religious nutters hijacked it and look at the sh!t's that occurred because of it....

Posted by: mushymanrob 18th July 2006, 07:49 PM

the 'promised land' given to 'gods chosen people'...... hmmm..... smacks of trouble.

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 19th July 2006, 06:34 PM

It's almost, well, ever-so slightly Nazi in its outlook really innit...? When you think about it I mean, Hitler went on about the Ayrians being the "Master Race", the Zionists go on about the Jews being "God's Chosen People". Jeeez, it's really quite frightening how similar these ideologies actually are in a way...

Quite a cruel irony innit...?

Oh dear, I'm gonna be accused of being Anti-Semitic now, aint I....?

Posted by: Danny 19th July 2006, 08:17 PM

Not at all - I'm part Jewish, and I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said.
I cannot get over how disgusting the Israelis are. It would be like us attacking Ireland and killing hundreds each time there was an IRA attack...

Posted by: mushymanrob 19th July 2006, 08:40 PM

i know, there is a rather spooky parallel, but with the wests backing i guess it goes unnoticed. how could it be otherwise when the sentate and parliament have a large jewish reprisentation.

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 19th July 2006, 09:04 PM

Thanks for saying so mate. I think I tried very hard to distinguish between the ordinary Jewish people and the tiny minority of Zionist fanatics who have hijacked the whole issue (and it seems the Israeli Knesset) and claim to speak for all the Jews in the world....

A good point you made about the IRA as well, even Thatcher would never have been able to justify British fighter jets going on a bombing raid in Dublin or the Falls Road area of Belfast..

The Israelis are just a bunch of murdering fukkin' fascists who pretend that they're the "civilised" ones in the region (yeah, cos treating their own Arab population like third class citizens in their own country, going so far as to even denying them Israeli nationality or walling them into Arab ghettoes is really fukkin' civilised innit....? ) , when in fact they're no better than the Iranians, Hezbollah or Hamas....

Posted by: mushymanrob 20th July 2006, 12:19 PM

........ same with muslims or even christians. its the fanatics, the hard liners who offend straight thinking peoples.

Posted by: Consie 21st July 2006, 04:39 AM

Interesting, can another Brit here confirm that there is a large Jewish presence in Parliament? I didn't know that. It's absolutely the sole reason that the US supports Israel (even its blatant terrorism)... despite the fact that there are more Arabs in the US, the Jewish people have a huge governmental presence, influence, and power.

In Chicago here there have been many protests. Sad how even in the West it's the Zionists marching pro-Israel and the Arabs marching pro-Islam.

Is there any more reason on earth that religion is ****ed up and only divides people and causes more violence and chaos than it prevents?

Posted by: mushymanrob 21st July 2006, 06:45 AM

EXACTLY!....

Posted by: Jake 22nd July 2006, 03:21 AM

Of course the routes of this whole problem goes back some 100 years. Jews have been the victim of persecution in Europe in various times throughout the 20th century, ultimatley accumilating in the creation of Israel which Britain especially plays a large part in the creation of. Of course history has re-written itself and Israel is right, Palestine is wrong. This the fundamental principles that news coverage bases itself upon here in the Uk even the neutral/left-leaning BBC positions itself in this way. Which is just another example of why the media is so difficult to trust for straight facts these days.

I simply see this as Israel exerting its might which is helped co-incidently through billions of dollars worth of loans from the US. No suprise that the US feels this conflict is acceptable, it stands to do very well from it a la early years of world war 2. Of course Roosevelt stepped in then on the basis of the oh-so predictable Pearl Harbour incident (another parellel to draw with the current conflict i.e. excuses to exert warfare).

As long as Israel, through its religious bckground is allowed special treatment (nuclear weapons, persecution of arabs etc) the region will continue to be unstable.

What will be interesting to watch will be if Syria and Iran become more involved. If they do in a mild way then the US will leave Israel to bomb etc independantly as it has Iraq/Afghanistan todeal with. IF and it is a big IF, israel struggles then i either see an oppurtunity for the first use of nuclear weapons since 1945 or American support. Neither of which are particularly probable but still possible all the less. This conflict certainly is far from through imo.

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 22nd July 2006, 10:26 AM

The Jewish Lobby certainly has the ear of the movers and shakers in Govt. But it's more to do with Blair and co just going along with whatever the Yanks decide, even if that meant jumping off the bloody Tower Bridge, Blair and his other pro-Yank poodles would probably do it.....

If an anti-Israel protest happened in London, I reckon you'd see a mixture of Muslims, Christians, Socialists/Leftists, many Jews who are against the Isreali Govt, and ordinary people, just like what happened with the Anti-Iraq war protests a few years ago. America is polarised into ethnic and racial groups in a way that UK is not... Despite the best efforts of the gutter press to drive a wedge between Muslim and non-Muslim peoples.....

Posted by: Ozzy Osbourne 22nd July 2006, 10:30 AM

Israel are acting in self defence, hundreds of rockets have been launched by Palestinians and Hezbollah into areas like Haifa killing dozens of Israeli civilians

Palestinians and Hezbollah TERRORISTS have a history of using human shields (usually women and children), say you are an Israeli field commander and intelligence points you to a building where the organiser of the rocket attacks is staying do you spare him on the grounds he might have human shields or do you raze the building to the ground thus reducing the security threat to Israel ??? there is no choice but to do the former even if it means wiping out the human shield

Just remember to yourself next time you hear of Israel killing 20 palestinian women and children that they were infact killing a terrorist but the terrorist had 20 women and children in the building being held hostage

I support Israel fully over this action

1) Palestine is not a nation, it is not recognised by the UN as a nation, it is simply a territory with a state assembly, bit like Wales or Scotland or something but Palestine is not a nation

2) The Palestinian people had the opportunity to elect the peace orientated Mahmoud Abbas in last years referendum but instead chose to elect Hamas a terrorist group that has in its mandate and philosophy the complete destruction of Israel and who over decades have been responsible for many terrorist atrocities against Israel and America, given the fact that the Palestinian people elected a terrorist organisation to represent them instead of Mahmoud Abbas they have every right to be treated as a terrorist state by Israel

3) Ariel Sharon's Roadmap To Peace which involved a pullout from Palestinian territory and the destruction of settlements on Palestinian soil was the biggest peacetime concession since the state of Israel was formed but how did the Palestinians greet that ? by blowing up buses killing innocent Israeli's, Sharon bent over backwards to help bring about peace and the Palestinians spat in their faces

4) Palestinian schools teach Palestinian kids to refer to the Israeli's as pigs, a whole generation is bought up on the ethos that Israeli's are pigs, the Palestinian education system is anti semetic and breeds terrorism

Israel is merely defending itself against terrorists who want to destroy the nation

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 22nd July 2006, 10:55 AM

And again, Craig, you defend Fascism.... Does it not occur to you that it's the Israelis that are the invaders on Arab soil and that they are merely defending themselves against a nation that has developed nuclear weapons illegally against every UN non-proliferation treaty....?

As far as I'm concerned the Palestinians are not acting any differently to the likes of William Wallace did against the English invaders or the Czech, French or Polish did against the Nazis. Or the Zapatistas, the Free Irish Army who defended their democratic constitution against the brutality of the "Black and Tans", the ANC who were represented the black majority against a brutal white minority regime, and countless other Freedom Fighting groups. So easy for people in the West in their arrogance to label the Palestinians as Terrorists simply because they didnt vote in the so-called 'right' way (in other words, the way that Bush and Blair wanted them to vote...)

And if we're gonna talk about body counts, let's just compare the amount of Palestinians and Arabs the Israelis have murdered over the years to the amount of Israelis the Palestinians have killed.. You wanna go there...?

And I notice you aint even mentioned one sodding word about Isreal's war-crimes against the sovereign state and democratically elected, Pro-West Govt of Lebanon, which has NOT declared war against Israel or given Israel permission to act on its soil.. What, even a Pro-Zionist cheerleader such as yourself cant even find an argument to back that play....?

Oh, and if we're gonna talk prisoners as a pathetic excuse for all this, let's talk about the 10,000 Arab prisoners (many of whom are women and children) that are being held ILLEGALLY and WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL in Israli prisons. Some of whom have been there for almost 25 fukkin' years!!! Just how patient do you expect people to be in the face of this sort of flagrant human rights abuse....? Hamas and Hezbollah have taken soldiers as prisoners in all cases, Israel have taken many ordinary people, who are not combatants....

Posted by: Ozzy Osbourne 22nd July 2006, 11:05 AM

I can't reply fully at the moment as have to go out shortly, I will reply fully later but with regards Lebanon Lebanon is in the pocket of the Syrians who along with Iran are the biggest threat to Israel in the region, the Syrians have missiles trained on Israel from the Golan Heights just ready to launch into Israeli cities, Syria sponsor Hamas and Hezbollah and use Lebanon for training camps for terrorists and provides accomodation for terrorists so Syria/Palestine/Lebanon are all working as one

I feel that Olmert has every right to flush out and destroy the terrorists on Lebanese soil, not long after Ariel Sharon's illness Olmert asked Lebanon to cease training camps and sheltering Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists and Lebanon did not listen and with the rocket attacks on Haifa that killed dozens of Israelis Olmert decided enough was enough and decided that if Lebanon did not sort out the terorists on its soil Israel would do it themselves which I think is the correct thing to do

I will reply fully to the rest later but just wanted to clarify my position on the Lebanon issue

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 22nd July 2006, 11:12 AM

WRONG!!!! In case you missed it mate, Syrian troops were kicked out of Lebanon last year, and Syria were NOT very happy about that.......

Even Bush and Blair dont see Lebanon as being a problem......

Can't believe you're falling for that Zionist tripe. The Govt in Lebanon has no dealings with Hizbollah, and Hizbollah itself does not take part in Govt, so bombing the c**p out of Beirut is gonna do nowt but cause havoc to ordinary Lebanese and destroys infrastructure which adversely affects the Lebanese Govt's ability to effectively run the country...

Posted by: mushymanrob 22nd July 2006, 01:47 PM

not sure of the history of the area, but i thought palestine was a country/state in biblical times....

as for the jews being hated for a hundered years? (mentioned previous), they have been hated for thousands of years. historically the jews (with or without justification) have always seemed to rub up other nations the wrong way..... time to start asking why?...lol.

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 24th July 2006, 06:20 PM

Well, there was the Persian Empire which ruled over the area known as Palestine for almost 400 years, but that was fellow Arabs, fellow Muslims, not outsiders and from all historical accounts the Persians allowed their satellite provinces a good deal of autonomy and freedom, certainly a hell of a lot more than Britain and France allowed its colonies....

The facts of this whole thing are that for decades the US (and UK as well..) has vetoed any and all resolutions passed by the UN which could censure or force Israel to change its ways, it's little wonder the Palestinians are pissed off and have totally run out of patience; the Palestinians feel - and with justification IMO - that the UN and the international scene in general, favours Israel no matter how many human rights abuses or war crimes it inflicts on the Arabs. If the UN and the international scene was seen to be punishing or exerting the same sort of economic and political sanctions it did on Iraq, Libya or South Africa, then I very much doubt you'd have event half the Islamic terrorist problem that exists now. By not punishing Israel in the same way we punished Islamic nations for perceived transgressions we have opened the door to the likes of Al Qaeda and Hamas to win spectacular propaganda coups. The West is seen as being hypocrits by the Islamists, and frankly, they have a point...

The Zionist lobby is incredibly powerful in UK, European and US politics, they buy politicians, Senators, Congressmen and MPs, they can buy themselves seats in Parliament ("Lord Levy" being one very obvious recent example...) and they use this influence and power-brokering to lobby for Pro-Zionist causes...

I dont really approve of suicide bombing or blowing up buses in Tel Aviv, but I sure as hell understand the frustration and anger that leads to it, and yes, Isreal has totally brought it on itself - you reap what you sow at the end of the day - Israel sowed decades of hatred and violence against the Arab people and made absolutely no attempt to treat their Arab neighbours as equals or even with any dignity or respect. Quite the opposite, they acted like the murdering Imperialist racist scum that they are and they expected the natives to actually be happy to be shat all over....

Personally, I hope someday Israel gets what's coming to it, the same way Britain got kicked out of India and Africa; the same way the French got kicked out of Algeria and Morocco...

Posted by: Ozzy Osbourne 24th July 2006, 06:25 PM

Palestine is not a nation or a country though, its not like Iraq invading Kuwait etc Palestine is not a country and is not recognised by the UN it is just a piece of land that some displaced nomadic arabs live on that has its own elected assembly

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 24th July 2006, 06:31 PM

And dont you think that's maybe the problem Craig...? The fact that the Palestinians do not have their own country and are being lorded over by a bunch of fukkin' outsiders who dont even attempt to understand their cultural heritage....?

It's the same mistake we made in Ireland in the 20s, splitting up the country, divide and rule, all that bullsh!t, Cheers Mr Lloyd fukkin' George.... The Brits actually expected the Free Irish to be happy about being some bloody devolved parliament and not the free elected Irish Parliament of 1919...

Posted by: Ozzy Osbourne 24th July 2006, 06:48 PM

Its a while since I have done history Scott and I really should know being of Jewish extraction but am probably wrong but didn't Palestine only come about because the Romans (Hadrian annexed Jewish territory and expelled the Jews from the region so if I am correct then historically that land belongs to the jews in the same way as historically the Falklands belongs to Argentina etc

I think the Roman emperor changed the name of that region from Judea to Syria Palestinia

Plus didn't the Arabs reject the UN partition plan and attack Israel when Israel accepted the partition ?

Posted by: mushymanrob 25th July 2006, 07:28 AM

oh well in that case blow the buggers to bits then

Posted by: GRIMLY FIENDISH 25th July 2006, 07:50 AM

Why the hell should the Arabs have accepted partition when they got the sh!t end of the stick out of it? Of course the Israelis accepted it because it totally favoured them, gave them all the best land for developing and farming, etc and the Arabs just got crapped on and displaced off land which they had had for almost 2000 years. Anyway, it was the Brits and the French that did most of the carving up of land in the Middle East under the European Mandate that ran from the 20s to the late 40s....

And just because some bloody Roman general did a dirty on the Jews over 2000 years ago doesn't give these Imperialist Zionist b/astards the right to do the same thing under the caveat of incredibly dubious Biblical references regarding "the promised land" to the Palestininans 2000 years later mate... Or do two wrongs make a right in your world? You cant compare this issue to the sodding Falklands Craig, everyone there is a British citizen and can easily come home to the UK...

Posted by: Stackin Them P'S 14th June 2013, 06:28 PM

Those of you that have Sky digital i would suggest that you watch Channel 4+1 at 8pm. There is an incredible documentary about a British man who became a Jihadist and fought in Syria.

Posted by: Sandro Ranieri 14th June 2013, 08:05 PM

What is going on in Syria is clearly dreadful but it is not our job to get involved, Iraq and Afghanistan has put us in the firing line for terrorism and Egypt and Libya 'liberation' have hardly been successes, extremists and tribes rule the roost now.

Even just supplying arms is going to cause us problems in years to come.

Assad, unsavoury though he is is a better bet than having Al Qaeda and other extremists have control over the country.

Hope Assad wins this conflict, not because I like him but the alternatives will make the region way more unstable.

Posted by: Kanduälska 15th June 2013, 06:03 PM

Libya and Egypt aren't ruled by extremists or tribes - get your facts straight. The people in charge of both countries are broadly moderate Islamist economic liberals - hardly extremist control (you may as well call Germany's Christian Democrats extremist), especially given the hardline Islamic parties didn't win the elections there. And given the governments were democratically elected, I'm not quite sure why you're adding apostrophes to liberation.

The alternatives to Assad will only make the region unstable if the hardline Islamists take control out of the various factions opposing him - by no means a certainty. Morally - given Assad is using sarin gas against his own people - I think the case for intervention is far too strong to ignore now.

*cue wanky Stop The War Coalition-style 'neo-imperialism!' argument from someone or the other*

Posted by: Sandro Ranieri 15th June 2013, 06:36 PM

Egypt is ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood, if they are not extremists I would hate to see what your definition of extremist is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood if you think Egypt is a better and safer place with these wackos in charge whatever floats your boat but these guys are only marginally better than the taliban.

Libya is hopelessly divided, remember the farce about Gadaffi's son and his arrest? one tribe refusing to hand him over to another, Libya is a very unstable place.

Extremists get a foothold in Syria post Assad then god help the region, Al Qaeda or Hezbollah suddenly deciding to fire some of those missiles Syria has on the Golan Heights at Israel would cause severe problems, Assad unpleasant though he is is unlikely to attack Israel, the extremists would in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Stackin Them P'S 15th June 2013, 06:59 PM

This is the documentary i was talking about. It was on the Channel 4 news programme yesterday:

Posted by: Kanduälska 15th June 2013, 07:30 PM

What, just like those so-called Egyptian 'extremists' have attacked Israel in a heartbeat? Oh.

My idea of extremist would be the Salafist al-Nour Party. The Freedom and Justice Party - related to the Muslim Brotherhood, not the same thing as the Muslim Brotherhood (it's like saying the Labour Party and trade unions are one and the same - close links, but not quite) - has no massive truck with women's rights (though not exactly ideal on them, thinking a woman shouldn't run for President), the free market or Christians, and supports the Israeli peace treaty. Far more than just 'marginally better' than the Taliban. The best comparison between al-Nour and the Freedom and Justice Party would probably be the same relationship between UKIP and the Conservatives, except in Islamist terms. I think it says it all that Israel's relations with Egypt have by and large remained smooth since the transition.

Unlike you, I prefer to base my assessment of Libyan politics on more than just one or two cherrypicked examples. Someone by the same token could've gone 'remember those riots the other year? That and that guy getting beheaded in the middle of a street, the UK must be a proper unstable mess at the moment' if they applied the same logic. It's not perfectly stable - find me many places that are two years after a wholesale revolution - but it's democratic and on the road towards modern liberal democracy rather than hardline Islamism as you imply. That's a damn sight better than the situation under Gaddafi.

Posted by: Danny 15th June 2013, 07:46 PM

Do we even really know that Assad is using chemical weapons though? Didn't one of the top UN officials say a few weeks ago that she believed it was actually the opposition who was using them? And even if it was proven that the opposition winning would be "a good thing", it's still hard to see how anything the West could do would help them anyway. Any intervention still looks like it would be insanity.

Posted by: Sandro Ranieri 15th June 2013, 08:37 PM

I am not an apologist for middle eastern dictators, shed no tears when Hussein and Gaddafi were executed or Mubarak arrested nor will I shed any if Assad is killed or arrested but ultimately it is not our business to get involved, we should let these nations sort their problems out themselves. We poke our nose into Syria then we are a sitting duck for homegrown extremists to attack us again.

7/7, 21/7, Glasgow, the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby were as a direct result of us getting involved in nations that are not our business and last thing we need is Assad loyalists letting off bombs in the UK.

We should stay well out of Syria even as an arms supplier.

Posted by: Kanduälska 16th June 2013, 11:29 AM

I'd broadly trust the French government on this one, given there's no clear reason why they would wish to intervene.

In any case - need the obvious parallel with Libya of a no-fly zone (or even going further and deploying targeted air strikes on Syrian regime military installations) be cited as something we could obviously do to help?

Sandro - make your mind up: are the extremist Islamists on the rebel side or the pro-Assad side? There's not really much of a record of loyalists to a regime launching a terror attack on any nation after that regime was toppled, or even the threat of it. (Hey, I suppose we should be keeping an eye open for those Gaddafi loyalists then, eh?)

Posted by: Sandro Ranieri 16th June 2013, 12:27 PM

Lockerbie, the murder of WPC Fletcher, they have already happened, incidents where Gaddafi loyalists have caused terrorism on British soil, these happened while he was alive but for example the Lockerbie bombing was a revenge attack for America bombing Tripoli 2 years before Lockerbie.

We weren't involved in the bombing of Tripoli by Reagan but were seen as Americas closest ally so double whammy, USA airliner blown up over British mainland, so we had associates of a mad dictator letting off bombs in revenge for attacking him so what is to say it won't happen again with Syria if we get involved in stuff that is not our business?

I have 2 concerns with Assad being toppled.

1) Extremists taking control who want a conflict with Israel
2) UK being attacked by Syrian agents in revenge for bringing down Assad, you deny it will happen but Lockerbie showed it could

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th June 2013, 07:11 PM

Ah yes, Lockerbie. The incident that was initially blamed on Syria until Assad père sided with the US over the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Then, in a move remarkably reminiscent of 1984, the blame suddenly switched to Libya and the Syrian connection was instantly forgotten.

As for the bombing of Tripoli by Reagan, the planes took off from the UK which required UK agreement. That fits my definition of being involved.

Posted by: Kanduälska 17th June 2013, 12:20 AM

You are able to distinguish between the actions of a regime and the actions of loyalists, right?

Lockerbie, the Berlin discotheque bombings, the murder of WPC Fletcher -> actions ordered by the Gaddafi regime, not actions autonomously conducted by Gaddafi loyalists. There has never been an attack on the West by loyalist agents of a toppled non-hardline Islamist regime.

Egypt and Libya have shown that 1 isn't really a given, given democracy will likely result if the rebels succeed as it has in Libya and Egypt (especially after the effort we'll have gone to to support the rebels - we wouldn't let democracy not be an option if we got involved. The only case where a rebellion like this has led to Islamist theocratic corruptions have been revolutions where the West didn't back the rebels, because hardline Islamism is more likely to prevail autonomously when we haven't invested in the outcome) and any country with sense knows Israel will thrash the hell out of them with American support. 2 has never happened.

Posted by: Danny 27th July 2014, 07:21 PM

Probably should have an active thread to discuss current events...

Summary of the past couple of weeks:

Posted by: Michael! 27th July 2014, 07:25 PM

If that were the case, then why does Hammas keep breaking ceasefires with more rockets?

Neither party is innocent here.

Posted by: Rooney 27th July 2014, 07:52 PM

Reading between the lines, I think Hamas probably want Israel to keep firing rockets. Right now I don't believe that any of the attacks are actually killing any of the militants, it's just innocents. This looks great for Hamas, and awful for Israel. The more Israel attack, the more likely Western intervention is. Although I can't really see that happening, I think Israel are too important in the wider picture, and I'm not sure American really want to rest the resolve of their relationship on a major level. But the more it carries on, the more likely the West is going to have to make a decision.

Posted by: Cassandra 27th July 2014, 08:05 PM

Yep. A hideously malign organisation that have done more than any other to hurt ordinary Palestinians.

Posted by: Suedehead2 27th July 2014, 08:17 PM

With the rather obvious exception of successive Israeli governments. The Palestinians have regularly made concessions only for Israel to ask for more. That attitude was directly responsible for the rise of Hamas.

The only country in any position to try to resolve matters is the USA. Without their backing Israel would be finished. It's about time they used that power to get the Israeli government to engage with Palestinian representatives in good faith. At the moment that means having to talk to Hamas among others but that's life. After all, in order to bring some sort of peace to Northern Ireland, British governments had to talk to the IRA.

Posted by: Cassandra 27th July 2014, 08:26 PM

An organisation that reacts to the one big opening towards the peace process (disengagement from Gaza) with more rocket attacks has no interest in peace. All that has done is secure the idea in the minds of Likudniks (who realistically would need to be on board with any peace process) that liberalisation with Palestine is counterproductive in terms of their safety. But then, Hamas are more interested in delegitimisation of Israel than peace and a two-state solution.

Posted by: Rooney 27th July 2014, 08:51 PM

Isn't the major reason why the US are so reluctant to get involved because they're such an ally. They're practically the West's eyes in the Middle East, providing information about potential terrorist attacks etc. I'm not sure the USA would be willing to risk losing support of Israel, and potentially putting the country and severe risk. Obviously I'm sure there are many other reasons, and I'm not particularly glued up on the situation apart from both Israel and Hamas are at fault here. Sadly it's the innocents that are being affected her.

Sure I read somewhere last night that the missing Israeli teenagers had nothing to do with Hamas too? Israel just used that as an excuse to attack.

Posted by: Suedehead2 27th July 2014, 09:01 PM

What disengagement from Gaza? Israel controlled the supply of gas, electricity and water. Israel controlled the airspace. Israel controlled the coastline. That's a very odd idea of disengagement. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel must bear a lot of responsibility for their rise.

Israel, reasonably enough, insisted the the PLO drop the part of its constitution that called for the destruction of Israel. The PLO eventually did that but that ended up bringing a solution no nearer. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that a new group calling for the destruction of Israel (Hamas) gained in strength. Israel and the US called for elections in the Palestinian territories. When Hamas won elections in 2006 the reaction of those two countries was along the lines of "Yes, we wanted you to have elections but only if you voted for our favoured candidates. You didn't so we won't talk to you any more".

Posted by: Suedehead2 27th July 2014, 09:06 PM

I haven't read that about the teenagers but it wouldn't surprise me. I have read that Israel knew from the very beginning that they were dead but I have seen no evidence to support that.

Yes, Israel are, to some extent, the west's eyes in the region. However, perhaps the US could consider why the risk if terror attacks from that part of the world is considered to be so high. Perhaps the occupation of areas such as the Golan Heights (part of Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan) might have something to do with it. Maybe the building of settlements in the occupied territories (illegal under international law) could possibly be a factor.

Posted by: Danny 28th July 2014, 12:26 AM

That's right, but Israel is less innocent.

You can't expect the Palestinians to just sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the Israelis to finally be nice enough to treat them decently. Sure, we in the west in our comfortable positions can see that Hamas firing rockets is not productive or fair to any innocent Israeli civilians who potentially could get caught in the crossfire (though, the Israeli defence systems are so sophisticated that their civilians very rarely die). But if you've lived in the Gaza Strip all your life, been treated like dirt by the Israeli government, had food and basic supplies deprived from you, had the Israeli army come and deliberately bomb your family and friends constantly (since the Israeli government always deliberately target civilian areas despite their "defending themselves" bullshit), you probably wouldn't be viewing the situation rationally and dispassionately - you'd be mad as hell and wanting to get "revenge", you wouldn't be thinking about the big picture.

If I was in the shoes of a Palestinian, I'd probably be cheering Hamas on tbh (though a Lib Dem MP who made comments to that effect was condemned for "endorsing terrorism!!!!!111" this week by people who themselves were apologists for the Israeli military's terrorism and war crimes).

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 01:25 AM

Don't get me wrong, Sharon has a lot of blame to bear for humiliating Fatah at every step and working to propagate a religiously based faction to negotiate with (which has backfired INSANELY), but the Gazan disengagement was a step in the right direction by any account. Reacting to that step in the right direction and that freedom with rockets is about as counterproductive a move possible if peace is the ultimate aim. As it very clearly isn't for Hamas - not when you fire rockets from hospitals and schools, or use the concrete that you've requested to build shelters to instead build tunnels into Israel with the intent of kidnapping and killing Israeli citizens. Hamas's actions at every step send the message to Israeli people that liberalisation in Palestine is something that endangers them - and who ultimately pressures the government's actions on these things?

It's just a horrifying tragedy on all fronts. It could have been avoided if it weren't for Yigal fucking Amir or for Sharon not getting incapacitated just as he decided to use his influence to pursue peace.

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 01:27 AM

To be accurate, he said he'd fire rockets himself in that position. Which is quite literally endorsing terrorism. Did he think that rocket would've hit Netanyahu?

Posted by: Danny 28th July 2014, 01:44 AM

I didn't interpret his comment to mean he himself approved of or would encourage Palestinians to fire rockets. I interpreted it to mean that, if he was in the Palestinians' position he would probably resort to it, which is slightly different.

And how are Hamas's actions any more terrorism than the Israeli government/armed forces' actions? It's always hard to not be suspicious when people condemn Hamas's "terrorism" while simultaneously defending Israel, that underlying their argument is a (usually unconscious) belief that it's worse to kill white people than it is to kill "brown" people.

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 02:48 AM

There's a difference between firing a rocket which hopes to hit civilians and firing a rocket at an area rockets are being fired from. It's just disgusting that a lot of the time those rockets are purposefully fired from places with a lot of civilians.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th July 2014, 07:57 AM

Ah yes, the tunnels. Wouldn't it be simpler - and legal - just to block the tunnels at the Israeli end?

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th July 2014, 08:00 AM

Gaza is one of the most crowded places on the planet so there are a lot of civilians just about anywhere. Oh, and what about the Israeli Defence Forces? Where is their headquarters? It's rather close to a school and a medical centre.

Posted by: popchartfreak 28th July 2014, 11:58 AM

I don't support terrorism of any kind by any party, killing people who have nothing to do with a cause one way or the other just creates an ongoing series of terrorist attacks and entrenched mindsets.

That said, I have little sympathy for Israel for all of the reasons listed by Suedehead2. They could resolve some of the Hamas problem by at least trying to help their neighbours instead of treating them like potential enemies.

The USA deserves a lot of blame, kowtowing to the enormously rich and powerful Jewish lobby in the States, which has inflence far beyond the 2% of the population it occupies might suggest. Hollywood for a start, forms part of the propaganda machine, look at World War Z for instance and the welcoming and prepared Israel state to it's Arab neighbours zombies. As if they'd be invited in, the very idea!

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 06:32 PM

Which I presume is already being done. My point was more to illustrate that Hamas don't act in good faith at any step of the way during the peace process though, and this works to make peace even more unlikely. If you were an Israeli citizen, what reaction would you have if your government even tried to reach out a hand given Hamas are trying to exploit absolutely every concession they get from the Israelis?

Posted by: Danny 28th July 2014, 07:32 PM

If you were a Palestinian, what reaction would you have if a government was keeping you in a prison camp, not giving you basic resources, constantly wrecking your neighbourhoods and killing your friends and family?

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 07:34 PM

Funny how rare it was they had that reaction until Israel started disengaging. This isn't ordinary Palestinians, it's Hamas.

Posted by: Danny 28th July 2014, 07:37 PM

Do you also not realise how contradictory your stance on this is considering that (iirc) you wanted the Ukrainian rebels to succeed and were appalled at Russia's actions? The Ukrainian rebels have done nothing different to what Hamas do ("one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" yada yada yada), and it is quite easy for Russia to make the same kind of bullshit argument that Israel makes, that these rebels/so-called "terrorists" pose a threat to them and therefore they have the right to do whatever they want to supposedly "defend themselves".

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 07:39 PM

Eh? Last time I checked, those protesting against Yanukovych weren't firing rockets into Russia. They weren't digging tunnels into Russia to kidnap Russian citizens. They were protesting peacefully against a president, who then reacted to that by setting armed police on them. The mirror image would be Palestinians protesting against Abbas and Israel intervening and occupying the Gaza Strip as a result.

Posted by: Cassandra 28th July 2014, 07:41 PM

This still doesn't answer the question of exactly how peace is realistically supposed to come about when Hamas work to make every Israeli action to move towards it look counterproductive. If a government oppressing me made moves towards conciliation and peace, I wouldn't throw it back in their faces at each opportunity if I wanted peace. Hamas do not want peace.

Posted by: Danny 28th July 2014, 07:52 PM

But they did kill Ukrainian civilians. My point was that rebels fighting against an unfair status quo, and terrorism, are two sides of the same coin.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th July 2014, 08:20 PM

What concessions? They are still building illegal settlements in the occupied territories. They still have total control over Gaza. The more belligerent Israel are, the more support for Hamas grows.

Posted by: popchartfreak 28th July 2014, 09:26 PM

One might have said the same about the IRA and the British Government. Some of us are old enough to have lived through decades of bombings and murders in our own country, and still carry out a dialogue with the organisation responsible. Point being, peace is the only way forward, and talking is the only long-term solution short of attempted genocide. Which, I believe, the Jewish people have been on the receiving end of, and it wasn't Muslims who tried to carry that out. One would imagine they might have some degree of sympathy for a downtrodden people the majority of whom aren't actually members of a terrorist organisation. Presumably peace is what Jesus (who seems to be quite admired in rather a lot of religions originating from that area) would have been in favour of. I wonder if anyone's ever pointed that out to all concerned?

Apparently not...

Posted by: blacksquare 14th May 2021, 09:36 AM

Am I missing a thread or has there been no discussion about Israel and Palestine since 2014?

I don't know where to even start with what is happening right now.

Posted by: Smint 14th May 2021, 10:16 AM

Guess it's not been so bad between 2014 and now where things are really quite scary. During a deadly pandemic as well.

Posted by: Iz 💀 14th May 2021, 11:50 AM

Oh my yes, it's so sad what's happening right now there

(There may have been discussion about happenings in other threads - we had one for Soleimeni's assassination but outside of the similarly awful and horrendously ignored situation in Yemen, it has been relatively quiet since the height of ISIL)

In that there is only one side with the power to end it, only one side that's had the upper hand and has nearly 2 million people in a glorified open-air concentration camp, and that's the IDF.

Posted by: Iz 💀 15th May 2021, 12:42 PM

Israel has just levelled the press offices in Gaza, where Al-Jazeera and the BBC report from, amongst others. Will be interesting to see how they report on a direct attack on their activities.

I wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu is going to take this opportunity to just unilaterally declare more of the Palestinian territories annexed.

Posted by: Quarantilas 15th May 2021, 01:24 PM

The Israelis are committing war crimes.

For too long the US has propped up a hyper aggressive genocidal regime. The government of Israel are a major threat to global security and must be removed. Preferably to a jail cell at The Hague.

Very carefully wording this as Israel’s gov. Because there seems to be a determination by the Israeli state to crush any and all criticism of it as anti-semitism. And while yes there’s defo antisemites leaping into the debate on the side of the Palestinians and hijacking it, that does not mean that all critique is antisemetic nor that it is antisemetic to point out the regime is committing war crimes.

Posted by: blacksquare 15th May 2021, 03:06 PM

I won’t be expecting any press solidarity today.

Posted by: steve201 15th May 2021, 03:08 PM

Yeh was gonna say are we allowed to be critical or Israel or are we being anti-Semitic?

Posted by: Iz 💀 15th May 2021, 03:23 PM

As long as you do not conflate the actions and desires of the state of Israel with Jewish people, I would not say so. Make sure when you speak on this, you are getting your information from a variety of sources, what I've read about it, I've read media from different sources, listened what to a number of people have said, some of whom are Jewish themselves.

There has been an effort within Israel to create this siege mentality of being under attack, there are right-wing extremist groups within Israel, perhaps not encouraged by the government but not discouraged either, who would happily see Palestinians bombed back to the stone age and sent out of the country, I've seen studies that suggest a majority of https://www.jta.org/2019/04/10/israel/not-ready-younger-right-wing-voters, and consider their ethnic group standing against the outside world, I really fear for the future of that country and I would call it an apartheid state the way it treats its Arabic communities and the Palestinians right now.

Very aware that while some political figures in countries will condemn the violence on both sides, Israel is the most disproportionately armed and well-funded military state relative to its size. It clearly has the advantage here, and the casualty numbers on each side unfortunately are reflecting that.

Posted by: steve201 15th May 2021, 03:43 PM

Yeh I’ve never met a Jewish person to my knowledge but I don’t get why anyone would judge anyone by their religion anyway and I’m from N.Ire lol. I just don’t get it. But I do get why people hate Israel as it’s due to its actions and how it’s country was formed.

Posted by: NoBrasNoPanties 15th May 2021, 03:45 PM

I constantly hear from my partner about bomb sounds and sirens and having to go hide several times a day as he lives between TLV and Gaza so it’s difficult for me to stay unbiased here. He doesn’t even like the Israeli government and totally thinks this is their fault. However, the violence is just out of control at this point.

Posted by: steve201 15th May 2021, 04:16 PM

That’s the thing the government doesn’t even represent the views of all the people but it’s hard to not take sides I guess when it’s all around you.

Posted by: blacksquare 15th May 2021, 04:30 PM

This does tend to get twisted — especially by non-Jewish people who refuse to separate the two and speak on behalf of us, or those acting in bad faith from the right.

There is unfortunately some truth to that study. Have you seen the way the IDF use social media like they're influencers?

View this post on Instagram

View this post on Instagram

I'm not sure people realise the additional propaganda it takes to prepare all kids for military service — of course there is going to be misplaced pride and a feeling of duty to serve when Israel is taught to be so important to Jewish identity. I'm just really glad my parents moved abroad before I was born.

I have also found left-wing Jewish voices in Israel (and elsewhere) are purposefully ignored, silenced, ridiculed, and there is a definite fear of speaking out or going against the status quo. I mean, look at how left-wing British Jews have been made to feel over the past few years. It's really heinous.

Posted by: Smint 16th May 2021, 10:46 AM

Well Biden has tweeted unconditional support of Israel's actions so guess that's that then in terms of any actions on the International stage and more dead Palestinians.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th May 2021, 12:27 PM

^Thanks for providing that background blacksquare. It's a difficult debate to contribute to because obviously it has become so heavily loaded and framed in a certain way that it becomes difficult to engage in. I support there being a two state settlement and it saddens me that something that looked increasingly possible in the late 1990s with Yasser Arafat at the helm, looks increasingly impossible today. The British and the abysmal treatment of all those living in the region through their weasley betrayal written in the Balfour declaration 100 years ago have a lot to answer for, and should be making a lot more effort to bring about a peaceful resolution.

There isn't even a functioning government in Israel at this point (Netanyahu failed to form a coalition once again), you could be right that the increased tensions short of a full scale war will be helpful for him in his effort to try and forge a working majority and continue his spell in power.

Posted by: Quarantilas 16th May 2021, 02:19 PM

Thanks for this! Very interesting to see the IDFs use of Instagram in particular



Lot of reporting in Germany is overtly pro–Israel, still somewhat haunted by the German atrocities of the past. The idea that Germany can’t be in anyway critical of the Israeli gov because of the holocaust is quite pervasive. The conflation those Tweets mention is very pervasive in even left wing circles in Germany. There’s been coverage of pro–Palestine protests here in Germany that, well to say they’ve been hijacked by antisemites would be an understatement, huge crowds chanting anti–Jewish hate and flying Palestinian and Turkish (???) flags. Further conflates the viewpoint in Germany that to express solidarity with the people of Palestine is to be an antisemite.


This is a topic I struggle to articulate myself well on. 😔

Posted by: sn👠ke 16th May 2021, 08:49 PM

The fast vaccine rollout in Israel and lockdown easing would surely be much more of a boost to his popularity though?

Posted by: Voodoo 16th May 2021, 09:50 PM

Watch & educate yourselves before you make such unfounded claims:

Posted by: Rooney 16th May 2021, 10:42 PM

So I get the point, but I feel a lot of people in this thread probably feel this way too- you can have sympathy for Palestinians and be against Hamas, I don't think the two are mutually inclusive. I'm not sure it's been mentioned in the recent pages but I've long suspected both the Israeli State and Hamas use the media and the war to further their own agenda. While I can appreciate the photo, the root cause of a lot of the trouble is the Israeli State making claim for land.

But this is also where things get sketchy as when people support Hamas from the "woke left" rather than the plight of the Palestinian people, then quickly biases can quickly begin to rear! Both anti-semitic and anti-muslim biases quickly begin to show.

Posted by: diva thin muffin 16th May 2021, 11:08 PM

Personally I just think both Hamas and the Israeli government are self-serving idiots and the innocent people of both nations are suffering for their unwillingness to meet in the middle and find a peaceful compromise. The situation at hand isn’t really the fault to begin with of anyone currently alive as it started a long time ago but these two nations could easily live in peace if there was true will from both sides but any time one of them seems to be ready to call it quits the other one starts firing missiles or murdering innocent teenagers and feeding their civilians propoganda to fuel the hate for the other side. This war needs mediation, compromise from both sides and a realistic end goal, not a victor as we all know how that will end: with further unnecessary civilian deaths on both sides.

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th May 2021, 03:44 AM

Quite - not to mention saying a complex situation can be summed up with one photo is obviously incredibly wrong. I have vastly more sympathy for the suffering in Gaza, Hamas though, no sympathy with their cause at all. I've not seen a single person in my circles showing solidarity with them. As much as the IDF are a bunch of militaristic hotheads who are perpetuating race hatred; Hamas are too, it's just the former have far more resources and power, and a more mixed reputation among people where we are, in the West we are far more receptive to Israeli propaganda like that Instagram post painting themselves as just acting in self-defence - ludicrous of course, as the existence of Gaza as it is is entirely due to Israel.

I'd be for a one-state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians can share power, it's the only long-term solution. I can't see two-state ever working out peacefully with the power imbalance that occurs when you put them both into the international state system and the more interventionist and powerful countries like the US choose one over the other, but with the propaganda in both these states amping them up against each other that's a long way off.

Posted by: NoBrasNoPanties 17th May 2021, 11:21 AM

i obviously haven't experienced none of this so take this as an outsider's perspective but from the deep convos I've had with someone close to me who's lived in Israel his entire life and who is half-Arab the propaganda from both sides still seems super strong and isn't dying down at all. while a lot of leftists in Israel and elsewhere see through the propaganda there are still many cases of young people buying into the feud like it's extremely black-and-white. my partner had an incident when he was chatting to someone in a bar in Germany and as soon as he said he's from Israel the person just replied "You should stop killing Palestinians" and left. Not sure if this is the most rational way to respond without knowing a single thing about someone. he also felt that his relationship with a few of his Israeli Arab-friends has become somewhat more tense because of the recent events which further shows that on some level there's still a lot of resentment which digs deep.

Israel's conservative government (which cannot even have an election to stick, that kind of says it all really) goes backwards and erases all the progress while Hamas is pouring all of its money into weapons instead of trying to better the Gaza region / using civilians as human shields, I mean their buildings as bases, completely contradicting that they want what's best for their people. Both sides are kind of... actively terrible? Sadly I fear nothing will change until Israel has a change of government who would be willing to listen.

Posted by: Voodoo 17th May 2021, 11:53 AM

Hamas is to blame. Not the Israeli government.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th May 2021, 09:00 PM

That's a ridiculously simplistic attitude - as it would be to lay all the blame on the Israeli government. The Hamas leadership and Netanyahu are both far too stubborn to contemplate accepting a compromise.

Posted by: NoBrasNoPanties 17th May 2021, 11:44 PM

Just to clarify in case my point came across in a different way, I don't believe that Hamas are willing to work for a compromise at this point in time. The Israeli government will have to make a first move towards peace because there's no way in hell Hamas are doing that hence my last comment.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th May 2021, 12:03 PM

What a ridiculous way to behave, I can't stand people like that. I mean at least he didn't go into a lecture about the IDF but to just completely dismiss someone because of where they are from is incredibly stupid.

Totally agree that it is far too complex and deeply rooted to be solved easily, but the discourse surrounding it definitely needs to change and there has to be international pressure on the government of Israel (as well as that already on Hamas) to stop provoking and making tensions even more heightened than they already are. It concerns me deeply that legitimate criticism of Israel and its government so quickly can morph into hatred targeted at Jewish people (as seen in various social media clips over last weekend), and the conflation serves only to benefit bad actors and those who wish to stifle any debate as well as any progress towards a two state settlement.

Posted by: steve201 19th May 2021, 01:05 PM

Does anyone think one state power sharing would be a way forward or would it be impossible to get both parties to agree to this?

Posted by: Voodoo 19th May 2021, 06:10 PM

Posted by: Suedehead2 19th May 2021, 07:02 PM

I've always felt that one state would be the ideal but that the chances of it happening are about as close to zero as you can get. A two-state solution is the only realistic one.

Posted by: Dill Doe 20th May 2021, 08:35 PM

So the day after Biden calls for a "significant deescalation, both sides agree to a ceasefire. It is clear that America has a lot of influence, which it can use to get more dialogue going.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 20th May 2021, 08:51 PM

Good to finally see some positive news relating to this (though I don't imagine that will be the end of it by a long shot). This was a truly tragic situation and seeing people have a black and white view of who's in the right was even worse, I could barely even look at the stories, it made me so sad.

Posted by: Quarantilas 20th May 2021, 09:40 PM

Heard that Russia had more influence than the Americans. Whatever it was it is welcome to see.

Still expecting someone to break it almost immediately

Posted by: Iz 💀 21st May 2021, 02:21 AM

It's not going to bring an end to the suffering in Gaza, and I have no long held hope that the ceasefire will last. However, at least it has stopped for now, and I hope this renewed attention to the situation will bring more focus into ending the Palestinian suffering.

Posted by: Voodoo 21st May 2021, 08:01 AM

People in Israel suffer as well!

Posted by: Iz 💀 21st May 2021, 08:16 AM

No need to eyeroll me. Under ceasefire conditions, Israel is a normal, developed country. Gaza is a blockaded and poverty-stricken strip of land where nearly half of the 2 million population are children, most are not free to leave due to the Israeli blockade and what governance they have is dictated by extremists. Many Palestinian civilians die in times of 'peace' too. That it continues to exist and relevant world leaders are happy to let this horrific status quo go unresolved is a tragedy.

Posted by: Dill Doe 22nd May 2021, 04:12 PM

I think a one state solution is more lilely to succeed over a two state solution, especially given how small both are, with Israel unlikely to cede much control over Gaza because of how threatened they feel with some neighbouring countries that are hostile towards them, namely Iran. However, it is such a complicated topic that there is no absolute answer. In fact, I was reading one article the other day that said a one state solution could result in an apartheid state, like what South Africa was.

Posted by: Voodoo 24th May 2021, 07:35 PM

Posted by: Quarantilas 24th May 2021, 07:53 PM

What part of that was supposed to be funny?

Posted by: Dill Doe 24th May 2021, 08:38 PM

Hilarious??

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 24th May 2021, 08:48 PM

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you?

Posted by: Chez Wombat 24th May 2021, 10:09 PM

If you're gonna keep posting in here, then do it properly and actually back up your points rather than posting nonsense like that and brief, provocative statements. Any more will be removed. This is a sensitive topic, have some decency.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th June 2021, 08:49 PM

Netanyahu has finally been toppled as Israeli PM despite his Trump-like efforts to hold on. My hopes for the new government are not exactly high but let's hope I'm proved wrong.

Posted by: Quarantilas 13th June 2021, 09:29 PM

Bye bitch.


Sadly I think he will be back in rather a short amount of time, unless he’s actually found guilty and jailed before this fragile coalition collapses

Posted by: Bré 13th June 2021, 11:10 PM

The nature of the new coalition should, in theory, prevent it from doing anything too radical. If Bennett really tries to be even worse than Netanyahu as some are warning it only takes one of the more left wing / Arab parties to withdraw their support and the coalition collapses again.

It's very strange to see a government being formed between parties who really have absolutely nothing in common besides hating Netanyahu. Hard to see it lasting very long but I hope it can somehow bring some more stability.

Posted by: sn👠ke 13th June 2021, 11:22 PM

The fast vaccine rollout didn't help Netanyahu much then?

As you say though Bre its good that the nature of the coalition helps keeps things from becoming too radical.

Posted by: Iz 💀 15th June 2021, 11:30 PM

2 days after a new government installed and the ceasefire hasn't held, Gaza is being bombed again.

Posted by: Voodoo 15th June 2021, 11:35 PM

Of course you failed to mention that Hamas flew baloon bombs first.

Posted by: Iz 💀 16th June 2021, 01:52 AM

Because as ever, it's not a proportional response. The balloons have caused fires in fields, the airstrikes are levelling places where people live. If we want to go to who started it, there was a highly publicised Jerusalem Day flag march in Israel very recently where Jews chanted 'death to Arabs'. Neither side is blameless.

Posted by: Bdelita 16th June 2021, 07:32 AM

Hardly anyone here has any bias in this except you.

Posted by: Smint 7th October 2023, 11:00 AM

All kicking off here - again. Hamas have launched surprise terrorist attack, killed at least 22 Israelis and taken hostages. Of course Israel's retribution will be likely very brutal and a lot of innocent civilians will end up dead.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th October 2023, 11:44 AM

Very hard to see this ending without more deaths on both sides and a worsening of the situation overall, f*** Hamas.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th October 2023, 04:18 PM

Over 100(!) Israelis were murdered today, whereas hundreds were injured. Tens were kidnapped by Hamas terrorists.

Posted by: Smint 7th October 2023, 05:01 PM

Some are saying Iran was behind the attack by Hamas. This is a very dangerous situations - well over 100 Palestinians killed today in retaliation and Israel have barely started.

Which of course will lead to increased tensions between Muslims and Jews in the UK too, as has always been the case when there has been a particularly bloodthirsty episodes between Israel and Palestine.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th October 2023, 05:35 PM

Yeah I don't want to do the counting thing but very telling of the living situations of both groups that the numbers of Palestinians killed in the retaliation was so quickly a higher number. Tragic deaths on both sides of the conflict.

Which doesn't change the idea that Hamas are clearly the least excusable group in all of this, very disheartening that I've seen a bunch of generally left-leaning people who are mostly good at calling out Israeli apartheid seem almost gleeful at this catching the IDF off guard. That isn't going to help the victims in all of this and there's real bloodshed going on out there and makes people who like to think of themselves as more moralistic look monstrous to wrap it up in 'the colonisers are getting what they deserve' language.

On the opposite token, also disheartening that Corbyn's 'let's get to the root of the problem and solve peace' tweet got Conservative MPs and commentators firing off various versions of 'disgusting. everyone who supported this man to become PM should be excised from public life' once again. His refusal to condemn Hamas isn't great (and by the same token, Starmer/Sunak's full-on assertion that Israel is 100% in the right isn't great - both statements have their strengths and weaknesses) but it's better than his foreign policy views on Ukraine, at least in this scenario peace doesn't mean capitulating to extremists, because there is no world in which a peaceful resolution involves Hamas.

as ever with this subject, a lose for anyone who follows political discourse and likes nuance.

Posted by: Rooney 7th October 2023, 06:22 PM

Yeah, I don't see how this ends well now. The problem is I don't think Hamas really want any peace and the people who suffer on all this is the Israreli & Palestinian individuals. I think, whatever people's views are on the conflict and how Israel operate - Hamas are the by far the worst party involved here. Not sure they care about Palestinian people or their land, they will just do anything for whoever pays the most.

Looks really poor in the Israeli government too, some serious intelligence failings here.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th October 2023, 08:04 PM

Gal Gadot has just posted:

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Smint 7th October 2023, 08:29 PM

I agree about lack of nuance and of course there's a lot of gung-ho "Israel get rid of Palestine" crap on social media. I've seen a lot of rubbish too saying "Oh Hamas were forced into this by endless Istaeli aggression."

But parading naked women in the streets, taking children prisoners etc is not the way to do.it plus in.this case, Israel are too strong. Only diplomacy and pressure could have solved it and now there's no chance and it's going to be fecking gruesome.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th October 2023, 09:12 PM

Posted by: steve201 7th October 2023, 09:43 PM

An American president supporting Isreal, there’s a surprise!

Posted by: Voodoo 7th October 2023, 10:13 PM

View this post on Instagram

View this post on Instagram

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: steve201 7th October 2023, 10:26 PM

Stop posting propaganda please.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th October 2023, 10:29 PM

Don't tell me what to post. This is not propaganda. This is about people's lives. You are rude! Shame on you.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: steve201 7th October 2023, 10:31 PM

There’s people from all sides being butchered you only seem to think one side have the right to defend themselves and have a right to nationhood hence why your posts are propaganda and I will call it out if I want.

Posted by: Rough_edges 8th October 2023, 06:33 PM

Agreed

Posted by: Smint 8th October 2023, 09:05 PM

Apparently over 250 bodies were recovered at that music festival, ironically for peace. How horrific.

One of my friends is part of a Palestinian charity and has a lot of friends there. He contacted several of them today. One not replied and others have lost family members and neighbours. Just devastating.

Posted by: Voodoo 8th October 2023, 09:44 PM

No. Hamas murders innocent civilians. The Israeli army kills the terrorists of Hamas. There is no symmetry whatsoever.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 8th October 2023, 09:54 PM

You are clearly not following this story well if you think there weren't many, many innocents on both sides that were slaughtered. Hamas are evil scum but they do not represent all of Palestine. Any more of these social media posts will be deleted as this is bordering on misinformation and you've been warned about this before.

Posted by: Voodoo 8th October 2023, 09:59 PM

Oh... I didn't know Madonna was spreading "misinformation".

Posted by: blacksquare 9th October 2023, 08:10 AM

Yes, there is https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties#/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/18/mapping-israeli-occupation-gaza-palestine

Hamas are an evil fascist group killing and subjugating both Palestinians and Israelis and they should always be condemned for murdering civilians. However, they're a terrible symptom of a root cause, and nothing is going to change until the occupation and sheer ongoing cruelty from Israel and the IDF (the IDF have a lot more blood on their hands, significantly more) are addressed.

Posted by: Sour Candy 9th October 2023, 08:16 AM

The conflict has been going on for decades and decades. Israel could've prevented it from escalating many times if they wanted but they still chose to dehumanize Palestinians.

Posted by: The Haunted Hole 9th October 2023, 02:21 PM

Has anyone seen the rumour about Trump and this?? It was on Twitter The rumour is the reason why Hamas knew their way around the Ieon Dome is that Russia gave rhem the info, ans that they got the info from Trump. No idra if it's legit or not.

Posted by: Smint 9th October 2023, 02:29 PM

Trump being anti Israel then and aligning fully himself with Putin? Well it's a theory...although Trump's family are very close to the Israeli regime.

Anyhow, the facist dictator in Israel is applying illegal collective punishment against Gaza, stopping electricity, food and all water. Genocidal maniac.
Of course, the West would say 'Israel has to defend itself' - Sunak has implied may send troops. It's all getting very dangerous.

Meanwhile, in the UK, Jewish business have been vandalised already.

Posted by: The Haunted Hole 9th October 2023, 04:03 PM

Some online think Russia and/ or Iran instigated this somehow to get attention off Ukraine, but there's no evidence for that.

Posted by: Rooney 9th October 2023, 07:01 PM

This was always going to happen & Hamas likely knew it. Hamas don't care about Palestinian people and they know Israel will go all out. Then Hamas know whatever happens, they will be able to get more people to join their cause. For all of the shit Israel has given Gaza, Hamas could have built way better infastructure inside etc. if they wanted. Plus Israel's intelligence failed miserably, so they will go all out to meaning the likelihood is those hostages will all be slaughtered. Hamas helped turned Gaza in to hell on the earth. Hamas is not a group which wants peace, for all the crap Israel have done, to my knowledge they ahven't committed mass rape, kidnapped babies & the elderly and parded bodies to be spat on.

I don't know a situation how this descalates, which is very worrying.

Posted by: JamBlade 9th October 2023, 07:02 PM

Hamas are going to see the consequences of their evil. Israel should take the entire Gaza strip under their control and all Hamas terrorists should be killed. I want peace but tbh this was only going to go one way and that is war. Israel have managed to build a civilised country and deserve our hope and prayers that they win this war.

Posted by: Voodoo 9th October 2023, 07:13 PM

Why do you spread lies? He is not a facist and isn't a dictator. He is the chosen Prime Minister of Israel, which is the ONLY democratic state in the Middle East. Is Biden a facist dictator, too?


Exactly.

Posted by: Rough_edges 9th October 2023, 07:32 PM

What are the chances of either using Nuclear? Seen theories of Israel using

Posted by: Rooney 9th October 2023, 08:19 PM

They're daft if they do not. Not only is it right on their doorstep, it's one thing to target Hamas bases and targets, it's a completely different proposition to drop a nuclear bomb condeminng millions of innocent people to death. I think Israel would find their allies distance themselves very quickly..

Posted by: steve201 9th October 2023, 08:24 PM

Isreal is a democratic country? You are aware of how the state was formed aren’t you?

Posted by: Voodoo 9th October 2023, 08:35 PM

Yes. Israel is a democratic country. It is a fact. Is this news to you? If so, educate yourself.

In contrast, since Hamas won the elections in Gaza in 2006, there have been NONE since.

Posted by: steve201 9th October 2023, 08:50 PM

Read your history and see how the state was formed to see how democratic it is.

That’s like saying N.Ireland is a democratic country…..

Posted by: Doctor Blind 10th October 2023, 08:18 PM

Interesting that Haaretz place the blame for this horrific disaster firmly at Benjamin Netanyahu's door.

Crazy to think that he is still Prime Minister, yet was first elected as PM in 1996 (yes, before Putin). How many other democracies have the same PM nearly 28 years later?

Posted by: steve201 10th October 2023, 10:11 PM

^^THIS!

Posted by: Voodoo 10th October 2023, 10:27 PM

Haaretz is an anti Israeli publication, so no surprises there whatsoever.


LMAO. You make it sound like he has been Israel's PM for 28 consecutive years, which is simply NOT the case.

He lost the elections in 1999, and only won again in 2009.

Angela Merkel served as chancellor of Germany from 2005 to 2021 and I didn't see anyone implying she was a "dictator".

Posted by: No Sleeep 11th October 2023, 04:19 AM

I’ve decided to come off Twitter for a while due to this. It’s really disturbing - I’ve seen some videos from that festival and it’s hell on earth, the total lack of empathy from some people (some fairly prominent people at that) is frightening. Where are we headed when a terrorist attack like this on innocent civilians is almost celebrated?

Posted by: Iz 💀 11th October 2023, 07:18 AM

clearly weren't looking in the same places re: Merkel, I saw plenty of that.

His stranglehold over Israeli politics is quite un-democratic, Likud essentially is the Netanyahu party and ever since 2009, those short periods when he was out of power only served to eventually put him back in again, in the same manner as Putin. He's not an anti-democratic figure but someone who takes advantage of democracy, and pushes it to its limits in order to hold onto power and his way of doing things (keeping Palestinians oppressed).



don't get me wrong I think they're idiots and play into the Israeli far-right's hands by conflating Hamas with all Palestinians but there will always be idiots, just ignore them.

However, see the total lack of empathy from nearly every corner of the media when they interview Palestinians and play down the appalling conditions in which many more of them have died over the years.



Like this for example. See how the interviewer always pivots to asking the ambassador to condemn Hamas and to talk about Hamas, the simple moralistic bent that is important to people watching media right now, which, dreadful though it is, he shouldn't and doesn't focus on that. He wants to provide the answer that is important to him, that his people are in a constant state of systemic suffering due to the control Israel has over their land. He's not a Hamas defender or agent, he's part of the group of Palestinians that is in opposition to them. But the media refuses to listen to systemic explanations about the conflict because that would reveal that Israel's government and military is the more oppressive power and the only one with the power to end the suffering.

Posted by: No Sleeep 11th October 2023, 07:22 AM

This might be a stupid question, but where else were Jewish people supposed to go after World War II exactly?

Posted by: Davidson 11th October 2023, 12:14 PM

It is definitely not a stupid question. It is a very valid one in fact. That is why they decided that the only way to be safe is to have one country in the world where they were not a minority. Throughout history, whenever Jewish people were the minority they were persecuted, murdered violently or made refugees. It is such a complex history of thousand of years of persecution.

This does not mean I am condoning Israeli settlement policy. This does not mean I support Netanyahu's right wing government. But you have to understand where it comes from and that is the basic need to survive against all odds throughout history.

Now yet again we have almost 50% of the world's whole Jewish population being attacked from all angles. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan all are raising their heads to say that Israel should not exist. Jews have seen this before, and that is why sadly they have had to surround themselves with such massive military might.

Hamas do the Palestinian people no good either. They have in their 1988 charter:
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

This is what they believe... people on the left want to shout about how this is nothing to do with 'religious hatred' but for Hamas, it is. In black in white in their own words, they believe they have to kill Jewish people in the name of Allah. It is such a shame that people are supporting them and the Palestinians chose a terrorist group who's hate for Jews actively puts Palestinians at danger of even worse living conditions and even more horrible bombing by Israel. But you cannot negotiate with a terrorist organisation who just want the second holocaust.

Posted by: JamBlade 11th October 2023, 01:09 PM

I believe it's Hamas that is really oppressing the Palestinian people in Gaza, look at what Hamas has brought to the people in Gaza. Hamas have completely taken advantage of them with help from the evil regime in Iran, and don't think all people in Iran support the Palestinians in this, a lot of Iranians know they are being manipulated by their regime over who's right and who's wrong between the Palestinians and Israel.

I would use the example of the secular Palestinians in East Jerusalem as the way forward for Israel and Palestinians. There are cases where Israel has successfully managed to help Palestinians integrate and assimilate as part of Israel whilst still holding onto their Palestinian identity but without wanting to destroy the country Israel. I'm not saying it's perfect and you do have clashes there, but it is improving rapidly by having both Palestinians and Israeli Jews live and work together, it's becoming normalised. There are even Arabs Israelis in Israel's parliament.

Sometimes walking on eggshells and just talking all the time doesn't work, sometimes you just have to force things through to move things forward.

Posted by: Iz 💀 11th October 2023, 04:04 PM

What Davidson said above is mostly correct. However, doing it the way it was done, completely ignoring the people already living in the land they took over, is what has led to today's unfortunate situation. It would have been better if they had been able to push for a single state with power-sharing agreements between both Jews and Arab peoples - though of course given the long historical anguish between both peoples that may have also been too hopeful, but that is the only way the violence can end today.

Effectively the British Empire took a part of their empire, gave it over to another group to rule over, and you have effectively what used to be Palestine ruled over in a fashion akin to old colonial policy, with two different classes of citizens, those who are Jewish and those who are Arabic. It wasn't the right way to do it then, what would have been the right way, hard to say, but the mistakes of history doesn't mean we should reverse it, anyone calling for all Jews to leave Israel is anti-semitic, Israel will and should remain a country with a large Jewish population. But they should have respected those people who had been living on the land for generations and let them take part in the state too, and instead they've corralled them behind walls and blockades.

also the Palestinian election that let Hamas take control of their government is nearly 2 decades old and given that Gaza's population in particular unfortunately skews so young, that result can't be taken as a Palestinian endorsement of Hamas.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 11th October 2023, 08:08 PM

I didn't say dictator, that was your choice of term.. which is, interesting. Although for the record Putin did have a gap of 4 years between terms from 2008 to 2012.

But by silencing the moderates and kowtowing to the extremists in order to cling to power, he has made a pretty volatile and dangerous situation much much worse for the region. Climate breakdown and associated mass migrations in the following decades will only exacerbate this problem and I really don't see any peaceful resolution or way forward now sadly.

Posted by: Voodoo 11th October 2023, 11:10 PM

You didn't, but Smint did.

Also, I'm sure you know what the meaning of the word "imply" is.

Posted by: Rooney 12th October 2023, 03:08 PM

Hamas have created an ugly situation. Must say I am very uneasy at what is happening in Gaza and how Israel have gone about things, but the caveat to this is Hamas took the hostages and they knew Israel would do whatever it took to get them back. For all their planning of the terror attacks, they must have factored how Israel would respond as well. But is has to be as soon as Israel recieve their hostages, they need to restore basic human rights to the people of Gaza - this is very quickly where I think the world may distance themselves within the next 48-72 hours depending on how the rescue goes.

Posted by: The Haunted Hole 12th October 2023, 03:36 PM

Biden said they are beheading children!!! Vile.

Posted by: J00prstar 12th October 2023, 04:51 PM

Admittedly this is one of the stories I mostly haven't followed because it's so intense but...

I've come across multiple different reports now claiming that some of the things claimed to have happened, namely the parading of a captive and the execution of babies, now have doubt cast on if they actually happened...?

Sorry but when did journalists stop actually getting evidence for things before reporting them as fact, not even alleged or 'reports of'?

Posted by: Smint 12th October 2023, 05:25 PM

Netanyahu has been criticised often this year and had multiple protests for being anti democratic plus he clearly treats Palestinians and lower class citizens, easily expandable. Certainly deep on the road to being a fascist dictator in my book.

Posted by: The Haunted Hole 12th October 2023, 07:58 PM

Biden said he had seen the intelligence on that.

Posted by: Voodoo 12th October 2023, 08:02 PM

Seriously?! Social media is full of evidence.

The following tweets contain. very graphic images. That's why I do not embed them here. Do NOT click if you are sensitive:

https://twitter.com/giladerdan1/status/1712145038442893540

https://twitter.com/raz_sauber/status/1712452624035844505

Posted by: Smint 12th October 2023, 09:43 PM

There is some encouraging news that Israeli people are furious with the Government for not keeping their people safe - whether deliberately (there is that astonishing claim, confirmed by the US that Netanyahu ignored warnings from Egypt a few days before). Yes Hamas are grotesque barbarians but that was priced in. That sounds the biggest scandal if true.

Horrible stories of hate crime against both Jewish and Muslim communities here too - some Jewish schools are being closed for own safety. And both main parties' leaders here are showing no nuance whatsoever.Not going to be nice in our cities here either.

Posted by: Rough_edges 12th October 2023, 10:07 PM

The news coming out today is really making me uneasy about Israels approach and our country's support

Posted by: steve201 12th October 2023, 10:07 PM

Why would they not listen to the intelligence - arrogance?

Suppose it was similar in 1941 before Pearl Harbour was attacked!

Posted by: Rooney 12th October 2023, 10:29 PM

As the Israeli people have every right to be furious. A government should be keeping their people say, Hamas have failed terribly and the Israeli government have failed miserably too. The retric seems to be "let's have war, then judge us later" - it's a populist move and when the dust settles (hopefully) the Israeli intelligence will look very silly.



Who knows, there were all sorts of conspiracy theories at the weekend (which I don't prescribe to), but there has to be some serious questions about the intelligence recieved and the general response to the crisis. The government and defence was clearly underprepared and it does appear as if there was valid intelligence, Hamas were planning something. There was an anniversary the day before wasn't there? I have some inkling it was down to that and probably pure complacency.

Posted by: J00prstar 12th October 2023, 11:05 PM

I haven't looked deliberately because I have no interest. I don't understand why people look at such things.

But what I heard was that one of the women who had supposedly been assaulted was perfectly fine and not where they said she was at all. As for the executing babies thing I don't even know why someone would do that. It sounds fantastical.

Anyway. Generally I don't have an opinion on this apart from opposing terrorism and not really seeing the point of any of it. It's not my community to have any further opinion on really.

Posted by: The Haunted Hole 12th October 2023, 11:55 PM

It's about genoxide. That is what Hamas wants.

Posted by: Iz 💀 13th October 2023, 07:30 AM

This is not to say that X horrific incident didn't happen, quite possibly this all did happen, but there is a lot of misinformation going around out there. Some of the claims of atrocities and evidence is from old photos, or AI-generated photos, or they misattribute who committed the atrocities, or whatever else. The fog of war is deep soon after the fact and I would be very wary about using any image evidence as proof that something happened.

Anyway, I am very concerned about the Israeli warning to citizens to get out of North Gaza, there is no way that people can evacuate in time; it is contravening international law if what it sounds like they're planning comes to pass - the UN has already asked them to step back.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th October 2023, 07:35 AM

It's a scary time on the internet going forward during crises when social media (Twitter/X especially) has become such an https://www.wired.com/story/x-israel-hamas-war-disinformation/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-israel-hamas-war-disinformation-x/ https://www.wired.com/story/x-community-notes-failures/ and is drowning in misinformation — and of course, the constant demonisation of reputable news sources isn't making things better.

Ordering more than one million civilians (including a significant child population) to leave their homes in 24 hours is logistically impossible — and that doesn't take into consideration the amount of injured, the unrestrained destruction of Gaza they're supposed to traverse through, or even Hamas preventing civilians from leaving. I don't really know what to say anymore — watching the entire Western political establishment back this in the name of defence as civilians are caught in the middle is inexcusable.

Posted by: Rough_edges 13th October 2023, 07:52 AM

This is going very ugly very quickly. Surely the west need to stop backing thus soon?

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 07:59 AM

Excuse me? Israel has EVERY MORAL RIGHT to defend itself. Hamas & Gaza must pay for what they did.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th October 2023, 08:29 AM

How is withholding water and electricity from a population of 2 million+ and displacing hundreds of thousands of children in the next 24 hours morally acceptable? It goes beyond defence when you're using https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon or dropping https://twitter.com/IAFsite/status/1712484101763342772 in one of the most densely populated areas in the world — that is https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-seeks-end-hamas-gaza-war/ in less than a week than the US was dropping in Afghanistan in a year. The entire destruction of a civilian population is not self-defence.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 08:36 AM

The local population of Gaza supports Hamas. They should have thought about that before choosing to launch a brutal attack on Israel.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th October 2023, 09:32 AM

Voting records and imperfect politics (especially in dire circumstances) should not equate to killing civilians — anywhere. Palestinians are not collectively responsible for what Hamas do, just as Israelis are not collectively responsible for their government. There is no moral case for justifying atrocities. Sorry.

Posted by: J00prstar 13th October 2023, 09:43 AM

I get the feeling a lot of people (governments included) think they are playing an RPG on this issue.

Coming from a place with a civil war in recent memory...

Let's take a second here. 'Israel has the right to defend itself' etc.

Israel isn't a person. What you mean is the government of Israel, the leadership, has the unilateral right to act on behalf of every person in the country and strike the people of Gaza/Palestine, because by virtue of being from there, the same place as the Hamas terrorists, they must equally share all of the blame for what was done.

In the same breath as saying the civilians that died in the Hamas attack were a tragic loss and unforgivable you'd essentially line up the Gaza civilians to be shot one by one or taken out all in one by a bomb or simply starved to death by inaction, just in case they supported that or in case THAT might hurt the Hamas leadership. And you don't see any kind of moral issue there? Sorry Voodoo that's taking your comment as a jumping off point but I intend that toward everyone on that position. Like just to clarify what we're actually talking here.

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2023, 11:02 AM

I agree with your last couple of posts entirely. We are beyond war crimes and into genocide here. This just feels to me so much like Israel wanting to wipe Gaza off the map once and for all. And that absolutely terrifies me, because there are so many people and governments willingly cheering it on. Of course the world would be a better place without Hamas, but that cannot come at the expense of 2.2 million innocent Palestinians. You can’t deprive 2.2m people of their basic and most fundamental rights.


It was always obvious that Israel would retaliate against Hamas and that the retaliation would be a thousand times stronger than what hamas did, that’s just how Israel’s playbook here works, but this is a whole different level of cruelty.




What’s particularly interesting to me right now is the governments lining up to support Israel as they starve Gaza of water, power, food and medicine - who rightfully went after Russia so strongly last winter for destroying Ukrainians energy infrastructure.

Posted by: Rough_edges 13th October 2023, 11:23 AM

Mark my words this is messier than Ukraine and Russia, I dont see this ending with just Israel and Hamas. Really feeling for all the civilians of both sides. This shouldn't be a destory all.

Posted by: Rough_edges 13th October 2023, 11:24 AM

I see you're point but you need to look at what Israel is now doing. They should defend themselves but this has absolutely no care for humanity

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 03:04 PM

Oh, please. This is war. Israel gotta do what it has gotta do. When Britain bombarded Dresden, German civilians got killed. When Ukraine fights back Russia, Russian civilians get killed. What do you expect exactly?

The Hamas terrorists use civilians in Gaza as human shields. Terrorists hide in schools & hospitals. Israel has asked civilians to leave. They got enough notice.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th October 2023, 04:25 PM

War crimes are war crimes no matter the country — they are indefensible.

No, https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142282 enough notice and it's foolish to suggest otherwise. It's justification for their deaths when they fail to do the impossible.



A reminder, according to the EU commission, https://neighbourhood-enlargement.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/C_2022_8279_F1_ANNEX_EN_V1_P1_2333429.PDF are under 14 years old. This rhetoric — unfortunately one you seem to share — is unhinged and genocidal.

Posted by: Iz 💀 13th October 2023, 04:29 PM

It being war is not an excuse to commit war crimes. Most of the civilians trapped in Gaza have no say in the matter. Those that manage to leave will become refugees.

And now, certain UK politicians, particularly the leaders of both major parties, have gone full-throttle on supporting Israel, meaning that when Israel commits war crimes, our leaders will have effectively endorsed that bombing. I know they are doing this in part to give their support and solidarity for the Jewish population in the UK but I don't and never want to believe that the Jewish population of anywhere endorses widespread killing of an oppressed people.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 13th October 2023, 04:45 PM

Yes, absolutely agree. Using a nebulous concept of 'self-defence' as justification for breaking the Geneva convention is completely wrong and a slippery slope. It's also counter-productive, just as the actions of Hamas were last weekend. It will simply generate just more bad feeling, create yet more martyrs and support the murderous propaganda that Hamas spout.

9/11 was a provocation which America took the bait for. It doesn't have to be like this, the cycle can and must be broken.

Posted by: spiceboy 13th October 2023, 07:40 PM

You are clearly blinded by one view on this argument as you never once express a single shred of remorse for innocent Palestinians. As someone who has no ties to either side, there is no denying that a huge injustice was done to the Palestinian's by the west intervening in the first place and has continued to be a huge injustice as “Israel” continue to steal more and more land from the Arabs. For a race so persecuted through history they have no issue doing the same to another. Hamas of course is a terrorist organisation, however they would not have risen to power in the way they have were it not for the abuse of power of the side of Israel. They are not innocent by any shred of the imagination in this conflict, and the blind support by the US and the U.K. continues to be disgusting.

Quite frankly they have no right whatsoever to order Palestinians to leave at all never mind within 24 hours.

Posted by: Rough_edges 13th October 2023, 07:44 PM

You are coming across ignorant, ill educated, and simply idiotic. The views you are holding are simply shallow, I suggest you read up before you make statements that are quite clearly wrong. Whoever you are I would suggest any further comments like that should get you banned.

Posted by: J00prstar 13th October 2023, 09:48 PM

The whole thing is a shambles. Forcibly settling people on a land where people already lived and encouraging them to establish an ethnostate... well, it's literally what happened in Ireland already and that didn't end well.

Posted by: Smint 13th October 2023, 10:22 PM

This whole situation feels as big (if not bigger) than 9/11 moment, where the retributions from the victims of the terrorism attack were completely overblown and targeted the wrong victims, which lead to huge resentment and more division, terrorism and violence. Only difference is that this timescale is much much faster.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 10:58 PM

Israel's response isn't a war crime. It's what every other country would do if 1400 civilians were killed in a terror attack.

War crimes are kidnapping, beheading and slaughtering women, kids & elderlies and launching rockets on civilians - what Hamas did & still do.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 11:01 PM

The fact that you refer to Israel as a thief says a lot.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Please educate yourself on the matter. Israel has no control on Gaza since 2006.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th October 2023, 11:05 PM

That's rich coming from you. Didn't you admit you don't know a lot on the subject just a few pages ago?

Why are you so worked up? Because I reminded that Britain bombarded Dresden and killed thousands of German civilians?

I wonder what Britain would do if 1300 civilians were murdered in a single terror attack.

What Douglas Murray says sums up my thoughts exactly:

Posted by: steve201 14th October 2023, 07:22 AM

No control? Apart from controlling the water supply food supply and movement in and out?

Posted by: Doctor Blind 14th October 2023, 08:21 AM

Btw Voodoo, just FYI: Douglas Murray is a well known Islamaphobe, I wouldn't share or take anything he says seriously, he said something like 'Europe is being snuffed out by hordes of Muslim immigrants'. He's got popular from his controversial takes, but he lacks critical thought and makes very sloppy arguments IMO.

Posted by: Voodoo 14th October 2023, 09:08 AM

Would you supply food & water to your enemy? I don't think so.

What's more, just to remind you, Gaza also has a border with Egypt.


It doesn't matter what he is known for. What matters is that he is absolutely right in this case about people expecting Israel's response to be so-called "proportional".

If we want to talk about "proportions", then watch this for comparison:

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Iz 💀 14th October 2023, 10:12 AM

The border with Egypt is a limited border, not equipped to deal with people who mostly live in the north of the strip anyway.

Israel's response should not be proportional, it should be restrained. He is saying that people are asking Israel to consider a proportional response and then laying out the evil of what that means, and then that it is of course absurd to ask Israel to execute such. But you and he seem to then be advocating for complete destruction which costs yet more lives of Palestinians and is more evil.



These painful statistics are the human cost of the conflict. Apply those comparisons your Instagram makes between Israel and the US and then apply them again to Palestine. It's just so dreadfully disappointing that Western leaders are okay with allowing this to continue and will ignore thousands of Palestinians dying to support Israel.

Posted by: Voodoo 14th October 2023, 10:30 AM

Most of the Palestinians that got / get killed are Hamas terrorists. IDF doesn't seek out to kill civilians, unlike Hamas. IDF does everything it can to warn before it makes a strike.

Israel's call for everyone in the northern region of Gaza to go to the southern region is a way to spare thousands of lives. But it was called "forced displacement of populations" and "ethnic cleansing".

The humanitarian corridor is being impeded by Egypt, which does not want a refugee camp on its border.

Egypt has not received 1% of the attacks from the Western mob.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Rooney 14th October 2023, 10:43 AM

It’s right that the IDF are not purposely targeting civilians, but their current stance seems to be as of now, if they are in the way.. they are just casualties. As much as I support Israel in their quest for revenge and how much people are hurting, there has to be a better way? Thousands of innocent people are going to be killed and as well as the impact in the Middle East, you can clearly see tensions bubbling worldwide as well and people being asked to pick a side. Personally, I think Western leaders have probably seen something different to what is known to the public or some forms of intelligence which is allowing them to support the stance of Israel, has to be the only logical explanation.

Posted by: Voodoo 14th October 2023, 11:55 AM

This isn't about getting a revenge. Israel's purpose is to prevent Hamas from doing it again. People in the south of Israel have been living under Hamas' threat since the IDF left the Gaza strip in 2005. How are the Israeli civilians expected to return to their houses when Hamas still launches hundreds of rockets every day? Would anyone in Britain be willing to live in a city that can be targeted by rockets and terrorists that cross the border in a quest to murder as many innocent people as possible? That is not normal. There's no other way other than stop Hamas from ruling & ruining Gaza, and that's why the Western leaders side with Israel. And if the people of Gaza can't or don't want to stop Hamas, then Israel will do it for them. This sick situation can't continue like this.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Iz 💀 14th October 2023, 03:37 PM

That doesn't stack up with the casualty reports that I am seeing - the Palestinian authorities are giving death tolls in civilians, including women and children, much the same as the Israeli death tolls, although the Israeli death tolls also include soldiers. I don't think most of them are secret jihadists.

Considering that the numbers from the UN include displacements in the hundreds of thousands, there is no conceivable way that they can get to the southern region in time, and the IDF knows this with the short timescales they've given. Civilians are acceptable targets, essentially. There's proper procedure to follow in these times. Evacuate surrounding parts of Israel, give time for civilians to be moved, have the IDF hold the line, do not be the aggressive party.

But no, instead, they're talking about ground offensives in to what is supposedly another state - it's because Palestine has been left in this quasi-state Israel-blockaded limbo that has enabled Hamas to take root and thrive.

Posted by: J00prstar 15th October 2023, 09:45 PM

Just as a sidenote, why is this all over news everywhere with everyone having an opinion on it? It really feels like everyone all over the world is trying to stick their oar in. I am finding it a bit weird that it seems every day we have new thinkpieces and things about it. I don't remember that happening for Ukraine when that all kicked off.

Posted by: Rooney 15th October 2023, 10:21 PM

Ukraine and Russia was a little more black and white in the West (e.g. an illegal war in Ukraine), but the Israel vs Hamas conflict is a lot more complicated and goes back hundreds of years, linked with the perseccution of Jews across multiple points of history and the conflict stokes up people's personal view points on who is right vs who is wrong. Iz did a great post a few pages back.

Posted by: Smint 15th October 2023, 11:32 PM

Also this conflict has more of a religious element then Russia vs Ukraine and so a lot of sympathy is based on religious grounds - some would say racial too.

Posted by: J00prstar 16th October 2023, 12:30 AM

That's a good point I hadn't considered. How complex... why can't people just live and let live?

Posted by: Davidson 16th October 2023, 11:17 AM

Whilst I absolutely agree that the death toll for the Palestinians is horrendously high when compared with Isreal, I do feel like these numbers are often branded about without the context they exist within. They are used without understanding why this is so.

1. Isreal only ever includes number of civilians killed in conflict. Gaza famously reports their own numbers including Hamas terrorists who have been killed in strikes against their terrorist infrastructure. Many of these numbers will include thousands of direct deaths of Hamas extremists.

2. Hamas is known for keeping it's own people as human shields. As well as building underground tunnels, they hide their weapons in schools, hospitals and civilian homes deliberately so that the death toll is as high as possible on their side. They have even been known to keep Gazan family's hostages in their own home so they cannot escape bombfire from Israelis.

3. The death toll has been historically low in Israel due to the Iron Dome defence system. Over 3,000 rockets were aimed DIRECTLY at Isreali civilian homes last weekend alone. Could you imagine if the Iron Dome was not there to intercept them? There would be tens of thousands of Israeli citizens dead in one single day. I do not condone all the Isreali strikes against Gaza in any way, but they have never in their history tried to aim as many rockets at that aimlessly at Gaza, without at least trying to aim for terrorist bases. The Iron Dome is the ONLY reason there has been so few Isreali deaths before last Saturday. It does not indicate restraint from the other side in the slightest. Anything but.

Posted by: Iz 💀 16th October 2023, 05:42 PM

Even allowing that Gaza death counts include extremists, they are still going to be a minority of those deaths. There just are not that many extremists in Gaza. As per



approximately half of the death count (2800 at the moment) inside of Gaza is women and children, and then a good number of the adult male casualties will have not been extremists either. I would put an upper bound of 25% of Palestinian casualties being Hamas terrorists and even that is extremely unlikely given the indiscriminate nature of missile attacks and that this figure doesn't include Israel's current claim of about 1,000 militants killed inside of Israel itself.

I am not sorry about Hamas members dying and I certainly don't think that Hamas fighters have been restrained, but the reason why this figure is so high compared to Israeli deaths is clear, right? Palestine doesn't have an Iron Dome, their infrastructure and protection is that of a poor country with crumbling buildings, because they've been left to rot by Israel blockading their lands, and Hamas has been able to take control in these conditions. The power disparities are huge here - Israel can wipe Gaza off the map if it chooses to, and unfortunately it's looking like they will, after uprooting about a million people from what homes they have and making them effective refugees too. Israel has the power to not cause all this harm, and yet it will.

Posted by: Rooney 16th October 2023, 06:45 PM

I think the wider point that often gets missed (and Davison stated) is that Hamas deliberately uses human civillians as human shields, often in the most vulnerable places. Now there's the argument that civillians should not be dismissed like this, but this point often gets missed by the other side of the argument. Hamas knows what it is doing and treats the majority of it's people as human shields. You now have examples of Hamas political leaders claiming that the rapes and murders weren't all done by Hamas.. they were done by Palestinian civillians. Now, two wrongs don't make a right here but it shows what type of terrorists we're dealing with here.

For what it's worth, I don't think Israel will wipe Gaza off the map, but I suspect the north will be. I suspected Israel would have gone in on the ground by now - whether they have intelligence to wait, or whether the international community is telling Israel to hold back, who knows.

Posted by: Voodoo 16th October 2023, 10:01 PM

IMO, Alyssa Farah, who is an Arab-American and The View co-host, has summed up the situation very well:

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: steve201 17th October 2023, 06:59 AM

But for me I ask WHY do a extremist organisation like Hamas appear in a place like Gaza?

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th October 2023, 07:37 AM

I would feel really reassured if had I been at a peaceful protest and heard I'd gotten associated with being a Hamas supporter by the BBC. :/

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th October 2023, 07:42 AM

Yes, they will do this, use civilians as human shields. But it does not seem like Israel has a problem with treating civilians as collateral damage, nor do they seem to take any precautions in targeting their air strikes and bombs into Gaza with the intent of just eliminating extremists.

And as Steve implied, this is a situation where Hamas have been allowed to thrive by these conditions being allowed to exist in Gaza.

Posted by: Davidson 17th October 2023, 02:04 PM

This is the kind of framing which is looking for a justification of terrorism. Hamas, who clearly state that on their charter their main aim is religious warfare and a day of "final judgement" where they "kill all Jews", if you think this kind of rhetoric is just based on bad and divisive Isreali policies then we definitely have a massive blind spot here. It based in deep routed antisemitism. This is not just calling for Isreal to give up more fair settlements, it is not calling even just for the end of Israel, it is killing for the massacre of every Jew in the world (all 7 million in Israel and 7.5 million outside Israel).

The fact is that sadly the extremists connected to the Muslim Brotherhood have had a massive problem with antisemitism for a VERY long time, very much outdating the 1948 state of Israel. It is well known that the leader of the Palestianian movement Amin Al-Husayni actually advised the Nazi's back in 1933 before Israel was created.

This obviously does not mean that all of the Arab civilian population around Israel is antisemitic, I am not suggesting that. But with the current Iranian regime chanting 'death to Israel' in their actual parliament. To suggest Hamas is alone as a terrorist organisation fighting for "resistance" is to both ignore the conjoined efforts of multiple extreme Jihadi regimes in the Middle East to rid Isreal from the map, whilst also ignoring that sadly antisemitism massively outdates any of the debates about land settlements in the area.

Posted by: steve201 17th October 2023, 04:59 PM

I am not framing it to justify any terrorism by Hamas. I oppose Hamas and their ideology wholeheartedly but I also understand why more extremist elements in states like Palestine and other Middle Eastern states exist and thrive in a place like Gaza which as you admit above, Israeli government policies and the estbablishment of a state in Palestine has caused great hardship to the local Palestinian population.

The debate can oppose Hamas but still support the Palestinian rights. Just like you can oppose right wing Israeli government policies and still not be anti semetic.

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 17th October 2023, 06:17 PM

A DAMN HOSPITAL! (Think I read it's 500 people...)

Posted by: Voodoo 17th October 2023, 06:58 PM

^ It's NOT necessarily Israel who did it. This could be caused by a failed launch of a rocket from within the hospital itself.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 17th October 2023, 07:22 PM

What's your source for that? And don't give me a social media post.

Absolutely awful :/

Posted by: Voodoo 17th October 2023, 07:27 PM

What's the problem with a "social media post"? Did Tafty not embed a social media post that you took as The Truth?

As a policy, Israel does NOT attack hospitals, although it knows fully well they are used by Hamas.



Update:

Israel has now officially denied it:

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th October 2023, 07:47 PM

All major news outlets that I can see are reporting the airstrike as an Israeli strike.

This is exactly what I meant when I said this was indiscriminate from Israel, without care or concern for human lives. This is ethnic cleansing and genocide from both the IDF AND Hamas - and the language downplaying and making excuses for both sides is exactly the same sort of language that has always been used to condone or make excuses in the past. But with Israeli defenders significantly louder in defending war crimes I must note.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 17th October 2023, 07:48 PM

Because I prefer to get news from verified, unbiased sources, and most of those are reporting that it's a Palestinian hospital that's been bombed by an Israeli airstrike. There is no way you can say with the information available this was Hamas entirely without jumping to conclusions or resorting to bias (and that's the same for linking this to the IDF). Unproven conspiracy theories are dangerous and don't help matters.

And it's a clear encapsulation of the issue that there is clearly massive issues on both sides and yet it's the innocent civilians on either side that are suffering for it.

Posted by: Silas 17th October 2023, 07:51 PM

Israel explicitly warned a hospital in Gaza to evacuate earlier today. Is that the same one that was hit?

Posted by: Voodoo 17th October 2023, 07:54 PM

BBC and other news outlets are simply quoting "Palestinian sources". They have no way to verify the information, certainly not within 3 hours.

Posted by: Voodoo 17th October 2023, 07:55 PM

No, it did NOT. This was tweeted by Al Jazeera and later removed. Fake news.

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th October 2023, 08:01 PM

True, the IDF claim that it was a militant rocket that misfired is now on the BBC.

The huge loss of life in any case is tragic regardless and I'd have hoped international leaders would have been encouraging deescalation rather than going fully behind Israel. At least Sunak, SUNAK, has changed tack and is making sure that Britain provides aid to Palestinian authorities too.

Posted by: Envoirment 17th October 2023, 08:45 PM

Very sad.

One of the things I really hate is what a cesspit of misinformation social media has become (not helped by Elon taking over twitter of course). Lots of conflicting posts about who is responsible for the bombing on the hospital with people using old videos and images to claim it was Hamas or Israel. Based on what I can gather, it's looking more likely it was a strike by Israel but I'll wait until things become clearer. I'm sure images of the hospital in the morning will be able to better inform whether it was an air strike or a "misplaced" Hamas rocket.

Posted by: Smint 19th October 2023, 11:21 PM

I know it's a relatively tiny thing compared to this horrific loss of life but I'm thinking would the Olympics 2024 be OK with all this tension around the World plus being held in Paris of all places which is a bit of a hotspot for terrorist attacks.

Several events have started to be cancelled like the MTV Europe event in Paris, again.

Posted by: Dobbo 24th October 2023, 01:21 PM

Can't imagine there'd be any issues with the Olympics. The security would be ramped right up, and there's been Olympics in the past which have taken place during highly tense ongoing global conflicts.

Posted by: Smint 28th October 2023, 10:28 AM

So Israel are really stepping up their attack, cutting off electricity and internet in Gaza and doing a full scale bombing attack last night. Gazans can't call for help or be taken to hospital safely. The UN has unequivocally condemned Israel's action and has called for ceasefire but Israel are having none of it. Very few countries are supporting them but USA and their poodle the UK are (despite the public being overwhelmingly for a ceasefire). I'm not the kind of person who is looking for footage of what it is like for the inhabitants of Gaza right now but needless to say it's going to be horrific and genocidal.

There's going to be massive demonstrations today in the UK in solidarity with the Palestinians, for which even the tiniest bit of inevitable hijacking by bad actors/extreme Islamists will be used to denounce the valid views of the demonstrators and to smear all of them as antisemites. But there's too many of them who have very strong feelings (including several of my friends who are going) that I'm sure they will continue every weekend for the foreseeable future, until there is a ceasefire. And Bravermann and co might moan about it but there's nothing they can do about it!

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 11:06 AM

Fantastic! It's about time. Hamas must be destroyed ASAP.

229 men, women, elderlies, children and babies are STILL being held hostage by Hamas.

Posted by: Iz 💀 28th October 2023, 05:31 PM

^and way more than 20 times that number of Palestinians killed in the IDF's retaliation. Which isn't going to destroy Hamas either, the Israeli disproportionate response will radicalise enough of the surviving Palestinians to keep them alive.

I'm starting to notice the more moral of our politicians start to break ranks and show concern. What's happening in Gaza is inhumane, the last 24 hours where the IDF have cut off all communication inside the strip so Palestinians can't stay in contact with their families have been particularly sickening. This isn't how you get justice.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 05:46 PM

According to estimations, there are over 40,000 Hamas terrorists in Gaza.

Posted by: Iz 💀 28th October 2023, 06:10 PM

3,000 of the Palestinian death toll is reported to be children. And for every adult killed who leaves a child behind, that child will hate the Israelis for murdering their parents. Violence breeds more violence.

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands wounded or displaced with their homes and livelihoods destroyed, unable to contact their families. There is no moral case for what the IDF are doing at this point. It's just waiting, like with Russia over in Ukraine, to do the ground invasion and actually occupy Gaza.

Israel is ignoring the UN secretary-general's calls for a ceasefire, along with a huge number of countries all across the world. They are not in the right.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 06:32 PM

The Ministry of Health in Gaza is 100% controlled by Hamas. I don't believe them and neither does Biden, as he himself said this week. They inflate numbers for their propaganda.

And I haven't even started talking about the infamous Palywood industry:

Posted by: Iz 💀 28th October 2023, 07:29 PM

Half of the population of Gaza is children. It’s sadly not an unbelievable statistic at all. What’s your interpretation, that every Palestinian killed is a terrorist? Because that’s what you seem to be dancing around saying and it’s obviously not true.

UK MP Layla Moran there. Her and Humza Yousaf have stood steadfast throughout this as much of the UK and US political establishment give implicit permission for the places where their families live to be bombed.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 07:46 PM

No, but many of them are terrorists. Since Hamas use civilians as human shields it's unrealistic to expect that no civilian will be killed. This is war.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 07:53 PM

What do you think will be the predominant response of Palestinians whose homes have been destroyed, along with the possessions they had to leave behind? Will it be

a) "Well done Israel"
b) "It's a bit of a blow, but life goes on"
c) "I hate Israel and I'm more determined than ever to get them to leave the Occupied Territories"
d) "I hate Israel and I want to see it wiped off the face of the Earth"?

I suspect the predominant feeling will be c). However, a significant number will go for d) which is a route to further suffering and disaster.




Which leaves approximately 2.3 million people (including 1 million children) who are not Hamas.



Previous figures from the ministry (which are accompanied by lists of the dead) have been accepted as broadly reliable by, among others, the UN.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 08:01 PM

First of all, Gaza is not an occupied territory.

Secondly, how did you expect Israel to react to the murder of 1400 Israelis on October 7th? Should it just wait for the next terror attack?

Hamas is responsible for what it's happening in Gaza. Hamas started this war. The people of Gaza support Hamas. End of.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 08:05 PM

I didn't say that Gaza was an occupied territory. However, Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory helped to lead to the disaster that is Hamas.

Israel's response amounts to collective punishment. That is a war crime and will only serve to increase Palestinian resentment against Israel. If an election had been held in the Palestinian territories last month, Hamas may well have been defeated. Now they would probably win a landslide.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 08:18 PM

No, it is NOT a war crime. Unlike Hamas, Israel is operating according to the international law. The USA, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, etc. fully support Israel in its fight against Hamas.

As for your second statement, it's simply not true. There's a reason why Abu Mazen refuses to hold elections:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-72-of-palestinians-support-forming-more-armed-groups-in-west-bank/

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 08:54 PM

Collective punishment IS a war crime. Both sides in this latest conflict have committed numerous war crimes.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 09:01 PM

Are you a judge? This is not a collective punishment.

There is no symmetry here. Hamas is the aggressor.

Posted by: steve201 28th October 2023, 09:45 PM

It’s a war crime according to the UN Charter to administer collective punishment on a people because of the actions of their side. This is FACT!

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 10:05 PM

It doesn't matter who is the aggressor. War crimes are war crimes.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 10:06 PM

^ LMAO! So you are suggesting that the US, the UK, Germany, Italy, France, etc. are supporting "war crimes"? As if!

Posted by: steve201 28th October 2023, 10:10 PM

Yes they are, western governments are notoriously hypocritical my friend incase you failed to notice that!

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 10:14 PM

In what way do you think collective punishment is not a war crime?

BTW, you haven't addressed my original question.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 10:18 PM

The only hypocrisy I notice is coming from some people in this thread, who are basically repeating the messages of Iran, Russia, Turkey, etc.

I'll ALWAYS side with the west, rather than with an entity that oppresses women, LGBTIQA+, Jews, Christians, etc.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 10:20 PM

It is not a collective punishment. It is not for you to decide.

You still haven't said what Israel's response to Hamas' attack should have been. How do you suggest Gaza can be freed from Hamas?

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: steve201 28th October 2023, 10:39 PM

Well then you simply don’t have enough critical thought to think further than the black and white ways you look at these issues when these are complex geopolitical issues. You believe because I am critical of the west and it’s foreign policy I clearly side with the views of Iran, Russia and Turkey which shows how simplistic your thoughts are on these issues. It’s also dangerously anti democratic because you want to close down debate by defaming another legitimate point of view which is surely what you are arguing against in your views which you say are pro democracy and freedom?

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 11:00 PM

Destroying homes regardless of who occupied them is collective punishment.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 11:03 PM

This is simply untrue. Headquarters that are used by Hamas are destroyed.

Posted by: Suedehead2 28th October 2023, 11:10 PM

I want to have a civilised debate. However, that is difficult of you cannot accept that destruction of innocent people's homes amounts to collective punishment.

Posted by: Voodoo 28th October 2023, 11:14 PM

They are not "innocent people's homes" if they are used by Hamas.

Do you want Hamas to continue ruling Gaza?

Posted by: steve201 29th October 2023, 12:13 AM

Why do you equate being worried about the deaths of people in Gaza with support for Hamas it’s not one and the same thing.0

Posted by: Cow-aki 29th October 2023, 05:56 AM

Won't be surprised if Israel doesn't get banned by UEFA and Eurovision (and ends up winning it). 🤐

Posted by: Iz 💀 29th October 2023, 08:14 AM

Actually this not happening, as I don't think it will, is a very good test for showing why this is different from Russia/Ukraine and why it's wrong, in this instance, to back the Western-backed country. Unlike Ukraine, Israel is not under imminent threat from its opponents, its opponents are an oppressed people, not a powerful nuclear state, Israel is moving its army and bombardments into foreign territory, and is killing civilians and uprooting hundreds of thousands of ordinary lives, assuming they all have phantom terrorists hiding under their floorboards. Ukraine has always been strictly on defense, and that what garners sympathy.

All of this combined means much less implicit support from the public for Israel compared to Ukraine against Russia. We didn't have hundreds of thousands of people marching for protests for Russia, thank god.

The West isn't always right, and neither are the likes of China and Iran always wrong in who they support - certainly to suggest states like those are fundamentally evil is very worrying. In this case, a state aligned with them is under threat from a state aligned with the West. That's just geopolitics and doesn't have any bearing on the moral case. But much of the Global South is with Palestine on this one, because of the constant oppression and poverty that much of their populations fall into so that rich Westerners can live good lifestyles.

incidentally in the past, particularly in 2019, there was a big push from the anti-imperialist left to boycott Eurovision because Israel is participating and because of what they continually do to Palestinians. I expect those calls to be very very loud next year, especially if the Israeli participant can in any way be connected with the IDF like Noa was last year - so I'm actually hoping Israel withdraws to save us all of that - the EBU likely won't ban them although they might face calls to if their Gazan campaign gets any worse.

Posted by: Silas 29th October 2023, 09:01 AM

Your lack of understanding of the definition of collective punishment does not mean that it’s not what’s happening. Cutting water, power, food, medicine etc to the entirety of Gaza because of the actions of 40k out of 2.3m *is* the literal definition of a collective punishment.

Your bias is clouding your ability to use basic English

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 10:53 AM

ROFL! Expecting Israel to get banned equates to expecting Ukraine to get banned.

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 10:55 AM

Yes, it is. You couldn't be more wrong. It is surrounded by hostile countries. Iran is close to getting nuclear weapon and constantly threats to abolish Israel.

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 10:59 AM

But that's not what's happening. They have EVERYTHING you mentioned. Humanitarian aid crosses Gaza's border with Egypt every day.

Posted by: Suedehead2 29th October 2023, 11:44 AM

No they don't. And the amount of aid being let in is a small fraction of what is required.

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 11:59 AM

Yes, they do. They still fire hundreds of rockets every day, which means they have everything they need.



What about humanitarian aid for the 230 Israelis who were kidnapped by Hamas? They haven't even seen the Red Cross yet!

Posted by: Silas 29th October 2023, 12:29 PM

I guess I missed the memo about how to feed a family of 4 with a 32mm shell. 🤷🏼‍♂️



The freed hostages have reported that they were well taken care of, with food, water, and medical care. Which is more than normal Palestinians are getting right now as a result of the collective punishment blockade

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 12:35 PM

LMAO! So you are willing to get replaced with them?

They got ONE meal every day. Is this what you call "taken care of"?

Posted by: Iz 💀 29th October 2023, 12:38 PM

I know it is surrounded by hostile countries. Hostile, not belligerent. It is not equivalent to Ukraine in the sense that there are not literally lines of soldiers (in this case, Iranian or some other powerful local hegemon) on its borders about to wipe it out save for the IDF. In fact, that is what the IDF are indicating they wish to do to Gaza.

For all Iran may be funding Hamas, it does not appear as if a ground invasion of Israel is at any point on the cards and it is hyperbolic and insulting to those who have died defending Ukraine to insinuate they are under the same threat.

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 12:45 PM

Hamas invaded Israel on October 7th, so a ground invasion is very much relevant. Iran is funding & arming both Hamas & Hezbollah. It is close, more than ever, to getting a nuclear bomb. Is this not enough of a threat for you?

Posted by: Iz 💀 29th October 2023, 12:51 PM

sorry sorry, a ground invasion by an organised military state that has the ability to meaningfully dismantle another state - as Russia does in Ukraine.

The attack from Hamas was repelled, and Gaza is being carpet bombed into oblivion. Which the IDF do not need to do. They've already had their victory against Hamas, they've manned the border, that terrorist group isn't getting a win anytime soon. Yet they continue.

Of Israel's immediate neighbours, Egypt and Jordan are relatively friendly towards Israel as Arab countries go, Syria is still a disorganised mess, and so any existential threats to Israel come from Hamas and Hezbollah in Gaza and Lebanon respectively.

And as much as Iran does funnel money towards those, Israel's clearly armed enough to hold them off, as we are seeing. The urgency in this crisis isn't about Israel facing a threat to its survival, because effectively, it doesn't here. The urgency now is only about them inflicting misery on a civilian population, the vast majority of whom are not Hamas fighters.

Posted by: Voodoo 29th October 2023, 01:15 PM

Why not? Hamas still stands. The IDF should'nt stop until it destroys Hamas. Hamas' fate should be as ISIS' and Al Qaeda's.

The vast majority of the people in Gaza are Hamas supporters. If they want it to end, they should get rid of Hamas and release all 230 hostages immediately. Very simple.

Posted by: spiceboy 29th October 2023, 11:30 PM

You think Israel doesn’t oppress women, LGBTQ+ and other religions? You are utterly deluded if so, they were all too happy to pass laws saying people can choose not to hire or serve LGBTQ+ based on their religious

When they took Palestine and made it into Israel in the first place they went against their own teachings in the Torah which is that Jewish people will not occupy their own land they will live in exile, as stated by god supposedly. Yet LGBTQ+ is still a grave sin… pick and choose as always what suits them.

Posted by: Voodoo 30th October 2023, 12:53 PM

Since you are a teacher, I didn't expect you to be that ignorant on this subject. Watch & learn a very basic history lesson:

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Voodoo 30th October 2023, 12:56 PM

^ FYI, the punishment for being gay in Gaza, assuming your family doesn’t kill you first to protect their "honor" ( ), is being thrown off a high roof. So yeah, "Free Palastine!!!!!!!1"

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Iz 💀 30th October 2023, 02:58 PM

A claim that cannot be backed up, is exceedingly likely to be false given Hamas' undemocratic rule over Gaza the past 2 decades, and even if it were true does not give them the power to control the actual members of Hamas nor morally saddle the citizens of Gaza with receiving collective punishment for crimes they did not commit.



And this is an especially reductive history lesson. Anything that talks about ethnic groups in that manner will always be, and the point about Palestine never being a state in its own right prior to the 20th century is especially braindead as very few states in our modern conception of the term existed prior to the 20th century at all.

The fact is that for the past 2000 years, there have been both Jews AND Arabs living in the region of Palestine/Israel. Most of that time, Arabs were the majority, ruled by a succession of Muslim kingdoms (and at times, Christian crusader states). Palestinians would have just as equal a claim to the land as say, Slovakia does to the area of Slovakia. Slavs moved into the area of Slovakia around the 3rd-7th centuries, was variously controlled by differing Christian kingdoms, and then eventually got self-determination after WW1, splitting from their partner Czechia. Just they didn't happen to have, say, the Visigoths, come back in the 20th century, claim it's their ancestral homeland, not the Slovaks, and push them out into the corners of the country and get backing from the most powerful military power on the planet to do it.

Saying there was 'no state of Palestine' is historically illiterate and relies on a very deliberate reading of what a state is, essentially. Was Mandatory Palestine not an area within the British Empire designated as Palestine? Did Arabic people not live for centuries in that area of the world under the Ottoman empire, whatever the Ottoman choice of administrative subdivision was (eyalet, but that isn't relevant)? Most European families, if they go back that far, will find ancestors working on peasant lands without much geographical movement, and it's much the same in the Levant. Except in 1948 lots of Palestinian peoples were hugely displaced just as they had begun to develop a national identity at the same time as many other states under former colonial rule across the world.

Again, that is not to say Israelis should move. Many have been there just as long, those that moved when Israel was created have now been there 3 generations at least. But the historical claim to the land for Jewish people in 1948 who weren't already there was more of an emotional connection. Now it's a generational one. But it was generational for the Palestinians who were there and their rights back then were superseded by Israelis.

The terrorism would not be occurring if Israel had not established such military control and therefore poverty over the borders of the tiny corners of what was previously Palestine that they shuffled the Palestinians into. Now though, it seems that tanks are entering those corners with the long-term aim of pushing ethnic Palestinians out of their homeland altogether.

Israel is not doing any favours for Jews worldwide either. Those horrific scenes in Dagestan last night what with people rushing to find Jews. The actions of the state of Israel are being conflated with the actions of Jews. That's really not good.

Posted by: Voodoo 30th October 2023, 06:09 PM

Yes, it can: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

Most of the residents in Gaza & the West Bank support Hamas, according to surveys.

There has never been a Palestinian state. Before 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt, whereas the West Bank was part of Jordan.

Egypt *refused* to take back control of Gaza 10 years later, when it signed a peace agreement with Israel.

Speaking of Jordan, most of the Jordanians identify as Palestinians, so Jordan is the real Palestine.

As for what we witnessed in Dagestan last night, there's no need to find new excuses or justifications. It happened because of pure antisemitism.

Posted by: Iz 💀 30th October 2023, 09:59 PM

I feel like you're not reading what I wrote, so I'll put it again for you:

and even if it were true does not give them the power to control the actual members of Hamas nor morally saddle the citizens of Gaza with receiving collective punishment for crimes they did not commit.

In any case that article admits itself that support for Hamas fluctuates as as they fail to deliver change and it is a small majority in a single poll taken 2 years ago in the immediate aftermath of another clash where Hamas comparatively 'got away with it'. Not good, but similar polls across the world show support for awful causes. Doesn't mean you bomb civilians.



Again, you're not reading what I write.

very few states in our modern conception of the term existed prior to the 20th century at all.

However there clearly are a Palestinian people - not Jordanians, while the two groups are similar there's enough differences between the two that they're generally regarded as different ethnicities. There's never been a Kurdish state either, doesn't mean that there aren't Kurds in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq (and god willing one day the four corners of those 4 nations will become Kurdistan) . Just as there clearly is an Israeli people.

You just seem to be making a lot of very simplistic statements that seem to be aiming to rubbish any idea that Palestinians are a legitimate people of their own.



Yes, those scenes are fundamentally unjust. Just like what Israel is doing to Palestinians is fundamentally unjust. You can oppose both, I do oppose both. And it's horrific that every time Israel's far-right government starts more hostility towards Muslims, we see across the world a rise in antisemitic incidents in general. The fortunes of Jews shouldn't be linked to the whims of a state in which they may not even live, but they are.

Posted by: Voodoo 30th October 2023, 10:20 PM

Again, this is not collective punishment. This is absolutely necessary in order to free Gaza from Hamas. Do you have a better way to free Gaza? I think not.

The people of Gaza support the crimes committed by Hamas. They celebrated the massacre in the streets on October 7th. They are not "innocent civilians" like you try so hard to portray them.

Posted by: spiceboy 30th October 2023, 11:06 PM

When did I say that Palestine was tolerant towards LGBTQ? You said you’d always side with those supporting the rights of women, lgbtq+ etc and I said they don’t which isn’t a lie.

Posted by: Voodoo 30th October 2023, 11:14 PM

You couldn't be more wrong.

For example, gays in Israel are allowed, by law, to use a surrogate. They can also donate blood. There are dozens of Prides in cities all across Israel, including Jerusalem, with the one in TLV being the biggest.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 31st October 2023, 06:11 AM

Ooh, if only the IDF were as adept at tapping phones for this evidence to enable them to find out in advance of, oh I don't know, a terrorist attack on 7 October 2023.

Also - absolutely do not get the collective amnesia of those on the right to how anti-progressive they and their causes have been over the past few decades when it comes to gay rights, and just to conveninently align with them when it suits their cause to relieve their conscience over support for indiscriminately bombing innocent ppl, only to drop them under a bus again when it doesn't. It's grotesque.

I would have thought that thinking all people whose political and social views don't align with your own deserve to die would have been a basic no no when it comes to free speech and a free society to libertarian obsessed melts, but apparently not.

Posted by: J00prstar 31st October 2023, 12:45 PM

This thread is quite the rollercoaster D:

What does everyone think about "from the river to the sea?"

There seems to be a lot of discourse that it means from a specific river to the sea, the land should be a Palestinian ethnostate with any Israelis or Jewish people eliminated? But I don't know enough to judge if that's a reach or it's a dogwhistle.

Posted by: Smint 31st October 2023, 02:13 PM

It is a saying with many interpretations - some antisemitic, some not. IMO it would achieve more if the protestors who I agree with overall do not use that saying going forwards as it is weaponised by the media and detracts from the horrors actually happening in Palestine.

Posted by: Voodoo 31st October 2023, 02:53 PM

I think it exposes the real & dangerous intentions of those protesting in support of Gaza & Hamas.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 31st October 2023, 03:08 PM

I'd agree that it has racist connotations, it's unhelpful at best for it to be used (even if the intentions are for both Israelis and Palestinans to live together freely and peacefully), and as above can be interpreted as threatening by being construed as removing or denying the Jewish right to self-determination.

Fully agreed.

Posted by: Iz 💀 31st October 2023, 05:06 PM

As others have said, not the best idea to use it due to a history of a small minority of pro-Palestinians using it in that ethnostate sense.

The phrase doesn't inherently mean Israel is wiped out, because it just describes the territory under dispute, between the sea and the river Jordan, the massacring and abolishment of Israel isn't baked into the phrase by default though certainly sometimes it is as a dogwhistle.

But then we have the way Labour MP Andy MacDonald meant it in his recontextualisation of the phrase yesterday:



It would take someone really disingenuous to argue that he used it there in an antisemitic sense. Still lost the whip over it and it probably was a bad idea to try and reclaim it as a Labour politician (a good idea as a protest leader though), Starmer still is refusing to call for a ceasefire.

But away from Labour psychodrama, the phrasing MacDonald uses is what everyone should want. Because that's the only long-term solution where there is peace and no longer killing, a single state that is specifically not an ethnostate of either Israelis or Palestinians but one that like other contentious regions with different groups potentially hostile to each other (Bosnia, N Ireland, neither are the best example but...) has a system of power sharing. Or the Oslo Accords that Rabin and Arafat tried to negotiate back in the 90s. That was a high point for Israeli-Palestinian relations and it's a wonder that Western politicians aren't trying to lead Netanyahu's government towards that sort of stance again. The standard line of Western politicians for 'two-state-solution, can't support ceasefire', isn't going to lead to long-term peace, if it leads to peace at all.

Posted by: Iz 💀 31st October 2023, 05:35 PM

Incidentally, a couple of points that were raised earlier, the FT on the accuracy of the Gaza's Health Ministry figures (in the past):

https://www.ft.com/content/4668c628-9a5d-48d2-989f-90773ac2e25b

good, balanced article, the FT editorial board braver than the troops (and certainly Keir Starmer) in calling for a ceasefire while not minimizing the horrors that Israel endured earlier this month.

and as we did get into history:



If the Israeli state had held onto its socialist origins and didn't get suckered into this far-right Likud nationalism that stirs up hate between groups, we'd be seeing a lot less problems.

As I have often said, events have happened and we can't undo them, but Palestine's claim to the land is still a valid one, as is now the Israeli claim.




From an Israeli-perspective essay in a book I have that asks historians to conceptualise a summary of their nation (Histories of Nations, ed. Peter Furtado, this essay by Colin Shindler, 2012). You can see the threads of how this conflict has gotten worse here. And yes, the Islamism is also at fault. But it is not the only fault.

Posted by: Smint 1st November 2023, 01:51 AM

I hate to say it but Andrew bloody Tate (who remains disgustingly misogynistic on other issues) has a more moral stance on Palestine than the leader of the Labour Party.
Piers Morgan also raising objections against Israel - mind you he has been pretty good on certain things (Covid) in the past.

Posted by: steve201 2nd November 2023, 08:11 PM

Craig Mokhiber UN Human Rights expert: ‘This is a textbook case of genocide. The governments of the US, U.K. & much of Europe are wholly complicit in this…Not only refusing to meet their legal obligations, but giving political & diplomatic cover for Israel’s atrocities.’

Posted by: Voodoo 2nd November 2023, 08:54 PM

The word 'genocide' is used too loosely these days...

View this post on Instagram

Still want a ceasefire with Hamas? That's like calling for a ceasefire with Hitler.

Posted by: p a v 2nd November 2023, 09:42 PM

And here comes the hitler mention and arguing about semantics and whether or not something qualifies as a genocide. Does the death toll need to be higher? Or do these people have to actually be considered as humans in the eyes of others?

Posted by: Voodoo 2nd November 2023, 09:44 PM

Both Hitler and Hamas want/ed to inflict genocide on the Jewish people. I've just provided a proof.

As for the talk about the "death toll":

Posted by: J00prstar 2nd November 2023, 09:52 PM

Mate these takes are getting to be a lot.

Just come out and say you think Israelis are the only people in this conflict. Dressing it up saying it's not genocide etc. while everything else you say has you perfectly happy to see every single Palestinian shot or blown up isn't the win you think it is.

Like if that's your belief, own it. Don't weasel word out of it on technicalities and trying to play high moral ground.

Posted by: Voodoo 2nd November 2023, 10:21 PM

^ Just come out and say you don't think Israel has a right to defend itself, that Palastine should be from "the river to the sea" and that Israel shouldn't exist. Like if that's your belief, own it. Admit it, like these people in the video below.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: T Boy 2nd November 2023, 10:25 PM

How does one get ‘you don’t want Israel to exist’ when people are literally saying they’re against genocide and want the killing to stop? There’s blinkered and then there’s that.

Posted by: Smint 2nd November 2023, 10:48 PM

But the genocide is happening right now from Oct 7th so the growth in numbers before the genocide is not relevant. The Israelis have killed 10000 civilians in just a few weeks, not to mention destroyed Gazan infrastructure. That's pretty genocidal.

Posted by: steve201 2nd November 2023, 10:55 PM

Worryingly this happened today in 1917:

Today in 1917 the UK issued the Balfour Declaration- ambiguous support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine
Britain would seize Ottoman territory, with an overwhelmingly Palestinian population & give some of it to the Jews (while assuming that Brits would maintain overall control)

What could go wrong…..

The f***ing Brits are the cause of all the worlds conflicts I swear they have a lot to answer for!

Posted by: Voodoo 2nd November 2023, 10:59 PM

Did it also happen in WW2, too, as 2 million Germans were killed?

Israel is killing terrorists. Yes, there are also civilians that get killed, but what can you do if they are used as human shields by Hamas?

Posted by: J00prstar 2nd November 2023, 11:48 PM

Point me anything I've said in the thread that even vaguely implies that please.

I'll wait.

Posted by: Voodoo 2nd November 2023, 11:50 PM

Instead of trying to counter my arguments, you accused me of being "perfectly happy to see every single Palestinian shot or blown up". That is very low.

Posted by: J00prstar 3rd November 2023, 12:25 AM

What else do you possibly mean by putting things like "death toll" in inverted commas as if it doesn't count?

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 08:30 AM

Because it is superficial and shallow to look at the number of casualties without putting context to it.

Russia’s military casualties are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which estimates put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.

Oh, Russia's death toll is so much higher than Ukraine's. According to your logic, we must be siding with Russia.

Posted by: Iz 💀 3rd November 2023, 09:45 AM

The Russians in Ukraine are soldiers and invaders, combatants in the conflict. The people in Palestine are civilians living on Palestinian land. International humanitarian law makes this distinction no problem.

Like, the IDF have admitted to targeting refugee camps with their strikes. That's not targeting enemy Hamas combatants or doing everything they can to minimize civilian casualties. They've targeted the south of Gaza with strikes after telling all civilians to move out of the north for their own safety.

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 10:08 AM

The people in Dresden were civilians on German land.

Israel has better morals than the UK. Israel uses roof knocking before it attacks a Hamas HQ. Poor civilians in Germany were killed without a warning. Israel's target is killing terrorists only.

Posted by: Iz 💀 3rd November 2023, 10:40 AM

It's pretty well-established that WW2 horrors from the Allied side were also bad.

And this is the thing. Israel claims this. But then it goes ahead and does bombing that very clearly is not about killing terrorists only, in places that civilians have not been told to evacuate from.

At this point, and as I've said above that we can trust the figures from the Gaza Health Ministry to be somewhere within the realms of reality, 9000 Palestinians have been killed, 3000 children. That's not all from attacking Hamas HQs.

Posted by: Iz 💀 3rd November 2023, 10:45 AM

And in any case, great pivoting to swing directly from using Russian casualties to try and justify to using WW2 civilian casualties. Almost as if you don't care and are just trying to justify Israeli attacks however you can with whatever 'whataboutist' claim that comes to mind.

Posted by: J00prstar 3rd November 2023, 10:56 AM

I don't want to tag team on this but Voodoo, this was my point earlier.

If you aren't distinguishing between civilian deaths and combatant deaths, and if you generally are in favour of either happening in order for the conflict to end, then what you are advocating for literally is for anyone in Palestine to indiscriminately be wiped out, just in case they might be Hamas or otherwise pose some kind of threat.

I think this is also where we have a point of difference when you bring in other conflicts, were these civilian deaths justified, were those? In my opinion, no. None of them were justified. It's not to me a case of least worst here - once you get to targeting civilians with bombs, once you get to looking at everyone as a target - then what ever way you justify it to yourself, you have crossed a line morally in my view.

If you want to look at Russia and Ukraine, we'll look at it. I don't think any of those deaths were justified. I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Violence like this only begets more violence, breeding a desire for vengeance.

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 02:26 PM

Hamas wants as many as possible civilians in Gaza to be dead. It's good for its propaganda and suits its narrative, whereas Israel tries to minimize civilians casualties.

You cannot kill terrorists without civilians getting hurt, too. That's the strategy of Hamas. It operates from within schools, hospitals, mosques, etc.

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 02:49 PM

In my view, whataboutism is quite a useful rhetorical method to expose hypocrisy and double standards.

Why nobody in the West seems/ed to care for the German / Russian civilians that were killed? Why is only Israel not allowed to defend itself in a war that it didn't start?

Hamas declared that it would repeat the October 7th attacks as many times as necessary, until Israel is eliminated.

Israel cannot co-exist with Hamas on its borders.

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 02:59 PM

Then what is your suggestion for freeing Gaza from Hamas? Unless you think Hamas terrorists should contine ruling Gaza and making millions of people suffer.

Posted by: p a v 3rd November 2023, 03:27 PM

MomJusticeUS, the official Palestine-Israel relationship news source.

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 04:12 PM

It was reported by many sources. Look it up. Don't bury your head in the sand.

Posted by: Iz 💀 3rd November 2023, 07:21 PM

apropos of nothing, mods, you have free reign to remove any sources from people's posts if they're of especially poor quality. It's a tough balance to get right with so much misinformation around but questionable info from unsourced social media post or tabloid rag is just going to waste our time.

Israel minimising civilian casualties has been proven to be false by now. Let's not pretend that that's the case.

I want political discussion here to be based in reality and when 65% of the horrifically huge total of casualties is women and children then to say the side that caused them is minimising civilian casualties is insulting and conspiratorial.

Israel would be going about this in an entirely different fashion if that was their aim.



Allegedly there were Hamas commanders in this camp. That does not mean the lives of all the refugees there should be forfeit. No moral case can be made for that. Jupiter said it right, once you are bombing civilians, you have crossed a line morally. The ends don't justify the means, especially these ends; Israel may kill all current Hamas commanders, but violence is an especially poor way to eradicate extremism from a population.



Yeah, that's quite telling with how you're engaging here. Most of the time what that style of arguing tends to do is to waste time by bringing up cases that are not relevant because of wildly different circumstances ('but what about this? how about in this case?' is exhausting to read and to deal with), also ignoring that, in this case, I would make the exact same argument each time. Civilian casualties caused by violent actors are bad, no matter who they are.

I could also pretty fairly say that Palestine can't co-exist with the Israeli far-right on its borders. Obviously they aren't quite the same brand of brutal evil as Hamas but they're still causing untold death and destruction to normal Palestinian people. The current leaders on both sides are what led to this.

Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd November 2023, 09:02 PM

The Geneva Conventions post-date WWII. They were established as a response to events such as the Allied bombing of Dresden.

Posted by: Voodoo 3rd November 2023, 09:21 PM

Like what? Doing nothing in response to the most deadly terror attack in its entire history?


No. There was a ceasefire on October 6th. Who violated it? Hamas. Only Hamas. There is no symmetry.

By the way, Hamas attacked Israel even when the latter was led by a left government, so there's no need to give excuses.

Posted by: Iz 💀 3rd November 2023, 09:57 PM

When the UN has serious concerns and even the allies who initially came out gung ho for 'Israel has a right to defend itself' are having concerns that the response is disproportionate, it's obvious that they are going too far. It's a crazed mess of an assault, suddenly necessitating the eternal destruction of Hamas (despite tolerating their continued existence and rule over Gaza for years) no matter who they kill in the process and their response has cost more in human lives than said most deadly terror attack.

It isn't justified when America does it, it's not justified when Israel does it.



You know and I know, and you're even referencing it here, that the conflict did not start a month ago. You could even go back to the founding of Israel and that given the original peace plan, Palestine was originally to have far more land, such that the division would be a real two-state solution (though Palestinian leaders reneged on claiming anything but Gaza/West Bank since Oslo I). Or the founding of Hamas, or Israeli settlements on occupied land in the West Bank, or the unlawful Israeli blockade of Gaza, or the failures of the PLO such that Islamists took over.

I mention far-right politics because it drives up nationalism, making tensions rise and leading both peoples towards the idea that they cannot tolerate the other side to live. That is what is most dangerous as it leads towards genocide and it's why this specific conflict has been as violent as it has. If the Palestinians had a strong moderate leader and the Israelis did not have someone like Netanyahu in charge, it wouldn't be so pressing. Right now I am very concerned, as are quite a lot of international observers, that the current direction of travel is leading to a truly tragic situation where Palestinians have to leave Gaza permanently, lest they be killed by the Israelis. That's why we need a ceasefire and a cooling of the conflict.

Posted by: Voodoo 4th November 2023, 12:15 AM

The fact is that the Arabs REJECTED the UN Partition Plan and declared war. That is basic history.

The Arabs want Palastine from the river to the sea, Jews-free. They say it out loud, but I see that some people on here refuse to acknowledge this fact.

Posted by: steve201 4th November 2023, 09:52 AM

The Irish conflict is similar violence leads to more violence and just leads to the opposite outcome of what the IDF want here. Look at NI - fighting the IRA what did that lead to? The IRA basically as the Prime Minister of modern day NI!

Posted by: Iz 💀 4th November 2023, 10:47 AM

I do wish that Voodoo would exhibit basic reading comprehension, read the entirety of what I write and not respond to a portion of a single sentence, the excluded portion of which gives an acknowledgement that those Palestinian state lines are no longer the case, and the excluded paragraph as a whole is not in fact talking about the legitimacy of any of those claims but rather describing other such transgressions in history like this month's atrocities that the conflict could go back to.

Anyway, Tories having fun over here with the prospect of banning protests for peace on Armistice Day. That's fun and certainly not Orwellian.

Posted by: Suedehead2 4th November 2023, 11:56 AM

“Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

That comes from the founding charter of Netanyahu's Likud party.

Posted by: spiceboy 4th November 2023, 02:08 PM

It’s well documented that both sides of the forces in WW2 committed atrocities. Just as USA are criticised for dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima despite the Pearl Harbour attack Then both the US and U.K. got tons of criticism for going into Iraq after Sept 11th. Plenty of people in here have said Hamas are at fault for their attack however most people can see Israel are also to blame for their own attacks both current and in the past, you however are totally blind to that fact, blinkered by it.

Posted by: Voodoo 4th November 2023, 02:25 PM

If the West didn't commit those atrocities (as you call them) then none of us would be able to sit here in 2023 and discuss music and charts. If England had lost WW2, it would have been under a Nazi regime until this day.

Posted by: T Boy 4th November 2023, 03:33 PM

And that has what to do with this issue? Does the huge loss of life mean nothing to you? I’m sure most people are grateful to be here whilst simultaneously recognising that it wasn’t good that innocent people had to be killed in order for this to be the case.

Posted by: Voodoo 4th November 2023, 03:42 PM

It was unfortunate but still very much necessary in order for WW2 to end and to finally beat the Nazis. It actually saved many more MILLIONS of lives of people that could have been killed if the war hadn't ended in 1945.

Posted by: T Boy 4th November 2023, 03:49 PM

‘Sorry you lost your loved ones, it’s unfortunate but necessary’ isn’t going to make people feel better about anything. You’ve clearly chosen a side but perhaps stop criticising posters for being human and having compassion.

Posted by: Voodoo 4th November 2023, 06:16 PM

It's the cold hard truth though, and truth hurts sometimes.

Sorry for not having a lot of compassion to a nation that has chosen terror and is supported, armed & funded by what is widely known in the West as the "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil": Iran, Russia & China.

Posted by: T Boy 4th November 2023, 06:22 PM

The compassion I refer to is towards people and lives, not nations. But you appear to believe people are dispensable so I think holding any kind of discussion with you is a waste of time. I guess it’s lucky that you’re so unlikely to be any kind of collateral damage yourself, you can afford to write of thousands of deaths that way.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 5th November 2023, 12:15 PM

Björk has entered the chat x

Posted by: Voodoo 5th November 2023, 12:57 PM

Eurovision winner & LGBTIQA+ icon, Dana International, has entered the chat:

View this post on Instagram

Posted by: Voodoo 5th November 2023, 01:38 PM

Posted by: blacksquare 5th November 2023, 01:50 PM

I wish I had the patience some of you have when your posts are continuously contorted and everything is met with disdain and bad-faith arguments.

Posted by: steve201 5th November 2023, 02:13 PM

Is it weird the first person I thought of was our BJ Bjork?

Posted by: Iz 💀 5th November 2023, 03:54 PM

I have seen a few twitter accounts, not just that one, saying that Bjork's map is false and I would disagree, it's just simplified in order to make the simplified point that Palestinians used to be living in a far larger part of the country and have over the years been pushed into smaller and smaller corners of the land. Which is true.

That Egypt/Jordan occupied the Palestinian territories until 1967 for example is a fact that is missing there, but it's also not relevant? When saying that Palestinians have a right to live on these territories, that is, as they did throughout those occupations.

It does perhaps give an outsized prominence to the 1947 UN Peace Plan as something that never saw reality, but that peace plan did exist before it was rejected by the Palestinians of the time, probably because they were suddenly being asked to give away a large part of what was they saw as their territory to a Jewish population that at that time was half of the Palestinian population.

Posted by: steve201 6th November 2023, 09:04 PM

Isreal is breaking rule 14 of the Geneva Convention which ‘prohibits loss of civilian life which would be excessive’ in relation to the military advantage of attacks. 10,000 deaths in Gaza now surely breaks this convention set out AFTER WW2 so that the broken rules by both sides wouldn’t occur again.

Posted by: Voodoo 6th November 2023, 09:57 PM

^ Interesting. Now which rules is Hamas breaking? Can you list them all?
______

13 million views in less than a day. Wow!

Posted by: steve201 6th November 2023, 10:27 PM

It is interesting, why don’t you counter the statement I posed instead of just answering a question with a question?

Posted by: blacksquare 6th November 2023, 10:31 PM

They're not going to.

Posted by: Voodoo 6th November 2023, 10:36 PM

You didn't ask a question.

Now will you answer my question?

I can start:

Posted by: Suedehead2 6th November 2023, 10:49 PM

Both sides are breaking international law. The fact that Hamas broke international law multiple times on October 7 doesn't excuse Israel doing the same in response. That's before we look at Israel's multiple breaches before October 7.

Posted by: p a v 7th November 2023, 01:16 AM

There are stupid videos with much more views. Also nothing wrong with having a normal conversation without constantly using random Twitter videos and photos from American mom society accounts.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 11:59 AM

Do you have a problem with the truth being shared?

Oh, and it's not an "American mom society" account. It's clear you didn't even bother to check it out and read the bio.

15.7 million views and counting...

Posted by: J00prstar 7th November 2023, 02:45 PM

Voodoo I'm sorry but every post you make in this thread seems to have the undertone "here's why Israel bombing Palestine to shit is actually a good thing xx" when everyone else in the thread is pretty much of the opinion the whole thing is just a tragic loss of life and conflict all around.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 03:17 PM

The two point of views you described do not contradict each other.

Posted by: steve201 7th November 2023, 06:09 PM

Most of those types of tweets don’t deal with the cause of the tragedy namely the discrimination of the Palestinian people by the Israelis over many years now!

Posted by: Chez Wombat 7th November 2023, 06:24 PM

Ben Shapiro is not and never will be a credible voice in an argument x

Posted by: p a v 7th November 2023, 07:01 PM

That’s the problem. You calling everything you carelessly share ‘truth’. No matter from which transphobic homophobic racist people (hi Ben!). Believing everything and repeating everything they say like a parrot doubling down on sensationalist fake news from known homophobic idiots.

I did not expect to see another deeply disturbing Crazy Chris incel/troll case on this forum honestly but here we are.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th November 2023, 07:33 PM

Isn't that the same Ben Shapiro who has this infamous tweet on the subject

yeah I'm sure he's an authoritative, informative voice on the conflict

And yeah that is some of the issue. Lots of these sources that Voodoo is sharing are Israeli. Which isn't to say they can't be sharing what's really happening or have good or bad news reporting but it's quite likely that they have an underlying bias in their reporting. And then there's just the tweets of some random influencer which have very little bearing on anything.

Watch dispassionate news sources where they don't have bias - or heavily, heavily use critical thinking if you avoid that advice. E.g. I watched some BBC news reporting on the conflict yesterday and the interviewers were more interested in truth and listening to people from both sides, both on the aftermath of the hostage situation and the humanitarian crisis now in Gaza. Sadly their Israeli/IDF interviewees were very reticent when questioned about why, if they truly did regret the loss of life and plight of the citizens of Gaza, they did not seek to stop their bombing runs.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 08:45 PM

What "discrimination"? Gaza has been independent for 18 years.

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 08:46 PM

Why not? Because he isn't woke / progressive?


Who are you referring to? The Palestinians in Gaza? Yet people on here support them. How weird.

Violence warning:

Posted by: steve201 7th November 2023, 09:15 PM

Exactly hardly a two state solution is it!

Posted by: steve201 7th November 2023, 09:17 PM

At least Crazy Chris was tongue in cheek and supported the tories domestic policies bad as that was!

Posted by: Suedehead2 7th November 2023, 09:19 PM

Israel controls what goes into and comes out of Gaza. Israel controls the supply of essentials such as power and water. That doesn't fit into my definition of "independent".

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 09:24 PM

The Palestinians aren't interested in such a solution. Wake up.

Posted by: steve201 7th November 2023, 09:26 PM

So it all began in 1947 by trying to partition another country, this never ends well my friend!

Posted by: Voodoo 7th November 2023, 09:27 PM

Israel doesn't have to supply anything to its enemy. Gaza has a border with Egypt, too. They get whatever from them, including thousands of rockets. It's more important for them than food.

Posted by: Suedehead2 7th November 2023, 09:39 PM

So you haven't addressed my point at all.

Posted by: Suedehead2 7th November 2023, 09:42 PM

Or, to summarise, "Israel withdraws from territory it invaded".

Posted by: uhsting 7th November 2023, 10:24 PM

jeez have we stooped that low to quote Ben Shapiro's tweets dfsjlhjkfsjldkfjlsdfsjlk

Posted by: Silas 7th November 2023, 10:25 PM

Comes under special skills on the British empires resume

Posted by: No Sleeep 8th November 2023, 06:55 PM

Why do you think that came about? What happened in the decade prior?

Posted by: steve201 8th November 2023, 09:07 PM

Does that mean you partition another country though?

It also had its origins long before the disgusting events of the 1940s.

Posted by: p a v 9th November 2023, 02:04 AM

No, Ben Shapiro. A racist transphobe who you quoted.

Posted by: Voodoo 9th November 2023, 02:05 PM

Yes.


What origins?

Posted by: J00prstar 9th November 2023, 05:20 PM

Well what is your solution for the Palestinian, non Jewish people who currently live in that area? That really is the crux of the matter, not what name the land has, no?

Posted by: steve201 9th November 2023, 05:39 PM

So in conclusion it’s fine to partition another state and Palestine never existed even when officially the British mandate was called Palestine and the cultural and social context of the land had developed over many centuries which pointed to it being a state of the Palestinians.

Posted by: Voodoo 9th November 2023, 09:05 PM

To just live their life without murdering Jewish people, perhaps?


It has NEVER been "a state of the Palestinians". Your ignorance is shocking.

Watch this and educate yourself:

Posted by: J00prstar 10th November 2023, 07:49 AM

Ok so in that case you agree with the majority of the posters here then? So I don't get where this positivity for the bombing campaigns etc. comes from if you don't in fact want the end result to be a Jewish ethnostate established in that space with all Palestinians forcibly made to leave and, idk, either die or become refugees or whatever.

Just because that's what it comes off like you actually would prefer to happen.

Posted by: Iz 💀 10th November 2023, 05:11 PM

which most do, the dead in Gaza have not, for the most part, killed anyone. And of course living their lives would be much easier if Israel didn't have a blockade of Gaza going on even in peacetime and didn't have settlers slowly encroaching on Palestinian territory in the West Bank. You know, if it really is going to be a two-state solution, actually treat it like 2 independent states where infringing on the ability of the other to operate is a diplomatic no-no.



dear god that's not what Steve said. His implication was that if this had been any other area of the world it would have gotten self-determination from European empires like countless countries in Africa and Asia and would have been called Palestine with a good population of both Jewish and Muslim people. Regardless, Gaza/West Bank is supposed to be a 'state of the Palestinians' so... what are you suggesting here? (might be that it's just the whole of the land under discussion, but within this land there is a Palestinian state, just one that needs to be recognised)



So on today's events, entirely in agreement with this quote from the UN, the cycle of violence is well on its way to continuing, sadly.

Israel seems to have focused on hospitals for today's Hamas hideouts, and the four-hour pauses that Israel had supposedly agreed seem to being taken as more of a guideline than an actual rule, looking at today's activities. As the reports come out that hospitals are being targeted, I'm sure Voodoo will come in to interject that they're all Hamas hideouts and need to be focused on relentlessly until the single terrorist sheltering in the basement is reduced to ashes as hundreds of civilians lie dead around him, we should also focus in on a new statistic that each Israeli airstrike this conflict has caused on average 10.1 civilian deaths, a number sadly far higher than in previous conflicts, more on that https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/civilian-death-rate-in-israeli-airstrikes-higher-than-in-past-conflicts-study-finds and more warnings that the number of civilian casualties is sadly likely to be an underestimate.

Posted by: steve201 10th November 2023, 07:24 PM

It’s all very sad and no surprise that many neutral people no longer feel sorry for Isreal after the horrible events of last month but think they’ve went too far.

Another pointer about Iz point is that as well as creating a new generation of agreeved Palestinian Hamas fighters the attacks have created a more extremist Israeli population and government with the left voices in Isreal moving to the right in their response to the events.

Posted by: Voodoo 10th November 2023, 09:29 PM

Again, Gaza has a border with Egypt. They can get whatever they want from Egypt, so it's not a "blockade" by any means.

As for a "two-state solution" - there won't be one since the Arabs aren't interested in it. It's very clear.

Posted by: Suedehead2 10th November 2023, 09:55 PM

Israel controls supplies of water, electricity and other essentials. It is a blockade.

Netanyahu has no interest in a two-state solution. He wants to do everything he can to ensure it never happens.

Posted by: Iz 💀 10th November 2023, 09:57 PM

Egypt aids and abets the blockade, for its own reasons, chiefly, not recognising Hamas, they're not friends. The border with Egypt is if anything more restrictive, no commercial goods through there. It is a blockade that makes it incredibly difficult for Gaza to be a normal place to live. Again, half the population in Gaza are children, which is a sign of immense poverty.

Two-state, one-state, whatever the solution, both sides need to work towards a solution where they can tolerate each other to live and not let this go unresolved, because into the gap comes more violence and deaths of civilians. Israel's government isn't working towards a solution either at this point.

Posted by: Iz 💀 11th November 2023, 02:51 PM

Touch wood, the Armistice day march for Palestine appears to be peaceful and orderly so far, I've got it live on the BBC in the background and I don't know what they're expecting to happen, it's just quiet marching with the occasional 'Free Palestine' chant.

The extra attention on it from Suella and the goons kicking off about it being on Armistice Day might have helped actually.

seeing some chat about 'river to the sea' chants on Twitter, which aren't ideal but they aren't appearing in the main coverage as far as I can hear.

A bunch of counter protesters (read: far-right thugs) have been arrested near a pub on the protest march route while also causing aggression near the Cenotaph - the right causing all the trouble again, quelle surprise.

Posted by: steve201 11th November 2023, 08:27 PM

Wonder if Suella will come out and complain about them?

Posted by: Suedehead2 11th November 2023, 10:29 PM

I won't be holding my breath.

Posted by: Smint 12th November 2023, 11:07 AM

Most of the coverage in the press and the uttering if Tory MPs will be about the few offensive placards and chants from the Pro Palestinian marches.

They don't give a monkeys about the mass slaughter of innocent children in Gaza. We live in a country ruled by evil people.

Posted by: Voodoo 12th November 2023, 12:48 PM

#NoJewsNoNews

Posted by: T Boy 12th November 2023, 03:54 PM

After more than 24 hours, Suella decided to tweet thanking the police for their work yesterday, briefly mentioning counter protesters in one sentence and then just ranting about how disgustingly antisemitic all of the peace march protesters are. They really are trying to drum up a narrative that both sides behaved equally awfully yesterday.

Posted by: Voodoo 12th November 2023, 05:04 PM

Are you serious?

Posted by: Iz 💀 12th November 2023, 05:19 PM

even the government (minus our swivel-eyed Home Sec) is calling it a peace march and admitting that the vast majority of those who were there had only peaceful intentions, bore off. 300,000 people aren't going to be united by the thought of more violence.

Posted by: T Boy 12th November 2023, 06:16 PM

Lol nice try. Do you think the counter protesters were right to behave in the manner they did?

Ideally I’d like some sort of human response, rather than some robotic Twitter links.

Posted by: spiceboy 12th November 2023, 08:53 PM

I mean for every example you show there are plenty of them for the counter protesters.

Posted by: Suedehead2 12th November 2023, 10:10 PM

The majority of people arrested yesterday were right wing nutjobs protesting g near the Cenotaph. That is despite the fact that the peace marchers overwhelmed them by a huge margin. Well over 99% of the peace protesters marched peacefully and caused no trouble. The same cannot be said of the counter-protesters near the Cenotaph. The latter group are the ones who showed a total lack of respect on a solemn weekend.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th November 2023, 11:20 AM

People on here just refuse to open their eyes. The truth is out there.

Peaceful protest? What a sad joke. It was a "protest" full of HATE.

Posted by: Davidson 13th November 2023, 11:23 AM

I don't think it is helpful to anyone to claim that only one side had bad apples.

It is true that most of the violent disorder came from the far-right EDL types who used this situation for their own racist agenda. The police are right to arrest and deal with them thoroughly.

It is also not helpful for our fearful London Jewish community to say there were no problems at the Palestine march. Of course the majority of people were peaceful but 150 protesters had to held by police for attacking them with fireworks. There are pictures all over the internet of antisemitic posters, with the Star of David turned into a swastika, Jews and Western leaders depicted as devils with horns and chants from the crowd to destroy Israel. Also some protesters going outside a synagogue and letting off flairs and Jewish people being subjected to "Death to all the Jews" shouted at them in the middle of Waterloo station.

To deny these things happened, just because they were in the minority, is not helpful. You downplay real antisemitism. If your protest is really about human rights and doing the right thing, you should be calling out antisemitism and not standing alongside these kind of things without challenging it. Even if you are not holding these signs yourselves, if you are fine with walking beside them without saying a single thing, you are part of the problem.

Posted by: steve201 13th November 2023, 11:26 AM

Stop confusing him with facts SH 😅

Posted by: Iz 💀 13th November 2023, 01:03 PM

It's also exponentially less helpful to spuriously claim as a certain other poster is doing, that it was a protest of hate.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that it was entirely trouble-free. But let's keep this in the wider context of what this march stands for when evaluating what's helpful.

Consider that almost certainly the vast majority of people in that march are decent, ordinary people, appalled that our government is tacitly supporting genocidal actions from a foreign government, Israel, towards another people, Palestinians. That's why most of them were there. Then consider the numbers involved. Hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom would not have seen anything untoward in the march. Those isolated incidents are just that. From reports, it would be generous to suggest that even 1% of the march were being antisemitic. Compare that to almost all of the counter-protesters that we know were there getting involved with police and disrupting the Cenotaph in exactly the same way that the former Home Secretary had insinuated a peaceful protest would, and it's quite easy to take a look at that and say that obviously the far right thugs are less sympathetic. Doesn't mean that those antisemitic people on the march can be excused, but MOST of the people marching for the Palestinian cause were entirely fine and their cause is the right and just one, asking to stop people from being killed. If the march was demanding a pogrom then I would say so and I would call it out. But I just don't see any widespread risk of that.

I get that Jews may be feeling uncomfortable and I dearly wish that the Israeli government wasn't doing what it is doing, because its actions are causing people to conflate Israel with Jewish people. Which means unfortunately that these antisemitic elements will exist in small amounts when people come together to criticise Israel on a wider scale. There's little anyone can individually do about that when a protest has to have huge numbers to be noticed, you just have to hope that law enforcement will deal with those people and it seems as though they are looking to identify the troublemakers there. And consider also that Palestinians and Muslims more generally will also be feeling very uncomfortable that their relatives or countrymen or fellow believers are being murdered by a foreign government and the British government is supporting it, while also making them out to be hateful when marching to demand that the government change its view.

Posted by: T Boy 13th November 2023, 01:38 PM

I don’t think anyone here has downplayed antisemitism. I criticised Braverman for saying the protest was ‘full of hate’ when we know that though there was antisemitism present, it was largely protesters for peace, if anyone is aiming it at me.

Posted by: Voodoo 13th November 2023, 11:28 PM

He has always been antisemitic, so I'm not surprised that he supports a terror organisation. Could he stoop any lower? I guess not.

Posted by: Suedehead2 14th November 2023, 10:12 PM

There were hundreds of thousands of marchers on Saturday. Inevitably, there were a few idiots, including those displaying vile anti-semitic slogans. Those few idiots were not representative of the vast majority.

Posted by: Voodoo 14th November 2023, 10:50 PM

^ IMO, they are more than representative.

__________________________

Very much on point.

Posted by: steve201 15th November 2023, 08:19 AM

So basically there’s a few repeated Twitter posts stating there were maybe certain few incidents of antisemetism on the March and you chose to believe they are all like that or that is the majority?

Posted by: steve201 15th November 2023, 12:10 PM

So you tar everyone with the same brush? If a minority on the March (130 arrests out of 300,000 strong marchers) then the majority are protesting about the genocide in Palestine. I don’t take the arguement that you don’t March beside this minority or you call them out - east to say on a social forum like this maybe a bit harder to do in real life and that doesn’t mean you aren’t going to March if you are passionate about the real reason for the marches.

Posted by: Iz 💀 15th November 2023, 02:10 PM

Reminder, and those involved know who they are, once again, that moderators are watching this topic and will delete posts, including content that is shared within those posts, if they cross the line.

Posted by: blacksquare 15th November 2023, 04:28 PM

My post was deleted?

It wasn’t my intention, it’s just a frustrating thread.

Posted by: Iz 💀 15th November 2023, 04:46 PM

Only because we deleted the post that you were referring to (sorry, it was a good point but lacks the context now).

and that post was deleted because it was reposted after being deleted once.

Posted by: Suedehead2 15th November 2023, 08:51 PM

Would you care to back up your assertion with some evidence?

Posted by: Voodoo 15th November 2023, 09:14 PM

You are welcome to ask each and every one of the participants.

I didn't see one participant who condemned the hate.

Posted by: J00prstar 15th November 2023, 10:03 PM

Were you there?

Posted by: T Boy 15th November 2023, 10:26 PM

Of course you didn’t, but then it’s often difficult to find something if you don’t want to see it. It’d ruin your biased narrative.

Posted by: steve201 15th November 2023, 11:21 PM

Hard watching the Ch4 News tonight with images of premature babies all lying on one incubator crying because the energy has gone on the hospital.

Posted by: Iz 💀 24th November 2023, 08:27 AM

Encouraging news (in as much as there is encouraging news about this conflict) in that a pause in fighting has started and both Israel and Hamas are releasing prisoners/hostages to the other side. Hopefully a pause that will become more permanent but I'm not expecting it yet.

Posted by: Smint 27th November 2023, 11:12 PM

It's been extended by 2 days although even if no more Israeli attacks were done the horrific loss of life and carnage in Gaza is just a tragedy.

There was a big 'March Against Anti Semetism' yesterday which in reality for the most part was an Israel propaganda rally with lots of Israeli flags. There's no acknowledgement of the huge loss of Palestinian life, rightly condemned by the UN and most NGOs as textbook genocide by the Campaign against Anti Semetism, the head of the Holocaust education Trust, most of our front bench politicians on both sides and most of our ghastly media. I feel like I'm living in a horrible world where the highest people in our society blatantly ignore elephants in room (see also Climate Emergency)

Posted by: Cow P 28th November 2023, 01:16 AM

Meanwhile the police has arrested Jason Eaton, shooter of the 3 Palestinian students in Vermont, US.

Posted by: Cow P 9th December 2023, 01:32 AM

Shame, but not surprised, on US vetoing UN for a ceasefire in Gaza. Meanwhile UK has chosen 'abstain'.

Posted by: IT IZ COLD 9th December 2023, 08:05 AM

13/15 of the Security Council voting in favour. Embarassing for the USA and UK in trying to negotiate for a peace now. And despite their obvious hypocrisies when calling for peace, China and Russia get to look good here too.

It seems that the principle reason the USA and UK are stating in not voting for because the resolution does not condemn Hamas, which seems almost like a cruel joke at this point given the number of dead Palestinians is well over 17,000 with the rest of the Gaza population herded into increasingly small areas of land that won't be safe for long - there's no possibility of any repeat of October 7 at this point.

Posted by: Smint 10th December 2023, 02:44 AM

Well I know it's a bit late but Labour are now stepping up their rhetoric against the intolerable killings by Israel. Pleased at this change in tone and hopefully isolate the Tories on being 100% behind them.

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 13th December 2023, 03:28 PM

!!!???

HOW DANGEROUS??

Posted by: Smint 13th December 2023, 11:20 PM

The "Hitler was actually not too bad/Nazis were misunderstood" line has been making a bit of a appearance recently including in the Jewish Chronicle of all places....hmmm

Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th December 2023, 08:54 AM

I see that the weathercock has swung RIGHT in to the wind, so predictable.

Key point on the recent UN security council vote delay...
the US is misunderstanding the scale of disillusionment in the Global South over US perceived hypocrisy in calling out Russian war crimes in Ukraine, but finding a multitude of reasons to justify the large scale killings of Palestinians in Gaza.

Posted by: Christmasteve201 29th December 2023, 12:03 AM

What western foreign policy is hypocritical? No way!!

The Starmer views on foreign policy really annoy me too!

Posted by: Christmasteve201 31st December 2023, 09:45 AM

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/29/steinberg-weaponizing-antisemitism/

Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 2nd January 2024, 04:38 PM

Reported your post for libel. He is not and has never been antisemetic.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 2nd January 2024, 04:48 PM

That poster is now banned btw, no need to bring it back up x

Posted by: Christmasteve201 3rd January 2024, 05:55 PM

Thank god for that!

Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 3rd January 2024, 06:26 PM

Oh right

Posted by: Smint 12th January 2024, 04:11 PM

So we're getting involved in another war by bombing Yemeni Houthis in the Gulf and aligning ourselves with Genocidal Israel. Hmmm, can't see this going well at all.... And funny how we can find money for war but not for NHS, helping business, councils etc etc

Posted by: Rooney 12th January 2024, 04:23 PM

Don't know what else could be done? Admittedly I'm not an expert, but you've got terrorists affecting civilians and impacting international trade. I don't think either sides want this to escalate further and yes, I do think this is what the likes of Russia/Iran want but there's a fine line between appeasement and taking action.

Posted by: Smint 12th January 2024, 04:35 PM

Because every time the West gets involved in Middle East affairs it all goes catastrophic - Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. With the current tensions in the region, it is a very reckless action to take.

Posted by: Steve201 13th January 2024, 11:09 AM

Hard to know who your talking about here - Isreal or the Houthis?

As Smint said always £££ for bombings and restrictions for public services. The hypocrisy!

Also embarrassing that the Brits always fall behind America with these things and contribute like 4 planes 🤣

Posted by: Iz 🧊 13th January 2024, 11:17 AM

Stopping indiscriminate piratical attacks on international trade (afaik very few if any of the ships the Houthis have attacked were related to Israel) is one very valid use of the military.

the one bugbear I have is the circumventing of Parliament/Congress to approve the actions in the UK and USA but the action itself is fine and the Houthis aren't a very well-liked group in the region anyway, only Iran funds them and that's only to get Saudi Arabia's nose bloody. It's unlikely it goes to any wider conflict.

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 13th January 2024, 12:11 PM

100% this

Posted by: Smint 19th January 2024, 12:09 AM

So Netanyahu himself has now said "In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river to the sea." Which of course means that he wants to abolish Palestine and the one state solution. That would be via genocide and breaking every International law going. Clear as crystal.

Yet both of our two main political leaders will give mealy mouth deflections and "Oh I'm not an international expert" hand shrugging if asked about it and are not going to withdraw support to Israel. And we'll be bombarded with endless propaganda about the (undeniably awfully treated) Israeli hostages but the 25000 and rapidly rising number of Palestinian deaths, not to mention famine coming their way will not be spoken about.

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 26th January 2024, 01:41 AM

This video is currently living in my head rent free right now...

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 26th January 2024, 12:27 PM

Promising!

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 26th January 2024, 12:56 PM

Posted by: Smint 26th January 2024, 01:16 PM

Although they haven't called for an immediate ceasefire - a ruling that both sides can find something positive out of and certainly not going to affect Netanyahu's slaughter campaign (although even calls for a ceasefire would have fell on deaf ears there).

Posted by: Steve201 26th January 2024, 05:49 PM

Was great from Stephen Flynn in PMQs on Wednesday when he made sure he got Sunak to not be able to answer the question of whether the shooting of a Palestinian man holding a white flag the previous night was by the IDF was a war crime or not.

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 27th January 2024, 09:31 PM

Posted by: Steve201 28th January 2024, 10:07 PM

Really disgusting the US and Uk stopping funding to the UN agency and then having the audacity to post about their solidarity on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Posted by: Smint 2nd February 2024, 11:11 PM

Oh oh. USA now bombing Syria and Iraq in retaliation for 3 US servicemen dying in deadly drone attacks. When will they learn to stop interfering in that part of the world? All it does is breed more terrorists.

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 2nd February 2024, 11:20 PM

It's attackin Iranian militias, not Iraq or Syria, to get Iran to dial back its attacks. A missile came within 3 seconds of hitting a US warship today... Now THAT would have been escalation.

Posted by: Smint 3rd February 2024, 12:17 PM

Well Iraqi government are furious about the US actions claiming it undermines their sovereignty and risking destabilising the region. They should know - the US has form in that country especially. What with arming and supporting Israel's horrific actions I don't trust anything the USA does in that region anymore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/03/us-strikes-will-have-disastrous-consequences-for-region-warns-iraq

Posted by: Steve201 3rd February 2024, 02:10 PM

Well that’s just fine then just bomb another state if they want!

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 3rd February 2024, 02:13 PM

Ok, let them just sit back and do nothing and lose warships, embolden Iran, which could trigger a massive war in ME, and allow global shipping to collapse?? Oh, the Repubs would use it to have Donald Trump win too... You were alañso against them degrading Houthi missile abilities, right??

Posted by: Steve201 3rd February 2024, 02:19 PM

Yes they only care about themselves and their capitalist system they are defending. If they bomb targets like this without following international law then it’s a free for all that will certainly lead to more wars! Have they learned nothing from Iraq?

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 3rd February 2024, 02:34 PM

Again, if they don't respond, it makes them look weak, which destabilises the ME, ans would upend global shipping!! Not to mention Trump would win, qhich would cause even MORE instability and potenrial wars.

Posted by: Steve201 4th February 2024, 02:03 AM

Weak? It’s thousands of miles from America they have no right having any say in!

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 4th February 2024, 05:13 PM

It's GLOBAL shipping, and if thdy didn't rrspond, they would be seen as weak GLOBALLY, too, whoch would precipitate conflict

Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th February 2024, 08:05 PM

Shames us all.

Posted by: Iz 🧊 10th February 2024, 09:03 AM

Gaza residents surviving off animal feed and rice as food dwindles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68239320

f***ing hell, there’s no excuse for any military force to be perpetuating such barbarity

Posted by: Tafty³³³ 23rd March 2024, 11:43 AM

This shit is so disturbing and sad!

*viewer discretion advised*

It’s insane to me how many people are still in support of Israel.

Posted by: Smint 25th March 2024, 07:54 PM

UN Security council now finally (because of US changing their Veto to an abstention) demands an immediate ceasefire from Israel. Even Donald Trump is now saying that Israel should stop the war. But we know that Israel will only stop their genocide at the very last opportunity sadly.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 25th March 2024, 09:04 PM

I see that Netanyahu has thrown his toys out of the pram by cancelling an Israeli delegation for talks at the White house about Rafah, and Ben-Gvir calling the UN 'antisemetic' - the absolute clarion call for 'I've lost the argument'.

Cry harder bitch/

Posted by: Steve201 25th March 2024, 09:46 PM

I know apparently the US are now Hamas supporters 😴😴😴

Posted by: Smint 4th April 2024, 03:38 PM

Well, the tragic thing is the USA are still selling billions of dollars of weaponry to Israel, despite criticising them.

It's like telling an arsonist off for burning down buildings but quietly slipping them matches and lighter fluid the next day. Biden, especially, seems to have no real interest in stopping the conflict despite his protestations. Scumbag (and I don't use that lightly and have previously praised his record overall).

Posted by: Smint 13th April 2024, 09:24 PM

And more grim news - Iran has started to attack Israel (in retaliation for Israel striking the Iranian consulate in Syria earlier this month) Really scary stuff.

Posted by: Long Dong Silver 13th April 2024, 09:49 PM

Drones first. That won't get a retaliation from US. However, now cruise missiles have been spotted over Iraq, so they're on their way. That is basically a declarstion of war. HOWEVER, Iran used cruise missiles against the US under Trump, and Trump didn't retaliate, so pergaps this won't turn into overt war.

Posted by: Long Dong Silver 13th April 2024, 11:07 PM

US, UK and Jordan ans France helped Israel intercept drones and missiles. Massive attack, using sametactics as Russia va Ukraine when it uses Iranian drones. They're definitely working v closely together militarily. I reckon that with most things intercepted thanks to thr combined effort, Israel will retaliate by degrading Iranian proxies in Lebanon and Syria, avoiding a direct attack on Iran.

Posted by: uhsting 13th April 2024, 11:16 PM

Hope this is not a run-up to WWIII

Posted by: Long Dong Silver 13th April 2024, 11:28 PM

Mm I don't think so. The fact that the UK, Jordan and USA made sure nothing shows they really wanted to avoid any escalation. No one wants a wider war - not even Putin, who needs Iranian drones.

Posted by: Steve201 14th April 2024, 01:21 AM

The condemnation of Tehran from western governments will sound pretty hollow given events of that last 6 months!

Posted by: Rooney 15th April 2024, 06:57 PM

Feels like nobody wants a war, but we're going to get one. Can't see either of Israel or Iran backing down, think a lot will depend on how much China or Russia potentially back Iran.

Posted by: Long Dong Silver 15th April 2024, 08:26 PM

This won't spiral into a war. Russia in east europe, due to its imminent defeat of Ukraine thanks to buying American far right politicians, namely kingpin Trump, and the South China Sea flashpoint/ a Chinese preenptive strike on US to invade Taiwan, are where to look.

Posted by: Rooney 15th April 2024, 09:04 PM

I don't think Russia or China want a war either, but we have Israel and Iran who don't seem to want to de-escalate. When Israel fight back, who knows how Iran will respond next. I think that's going to be the turning point, it's what Iran does when Israel retaliates.

Posted by: Long Dong Silver 15th April 2024, 11:05 PM

They'll just launch a few attacks at Iranian proxies.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 26th April 2024, 04:13 PM

BERN.

Someone call the Fire Dept.

Posted by: Smint 9th May 2024, 10:03 AM

So looks like (and 30000+ innocent Palestinian deaths, mass injuries and famine, not to mention the destruction of entire cities too late) Biden has finally found a bit of a backbone and said that he would not keep sending offensive weapons to Israel. There will be a huge amount of pressure for him (including the worst kind of accusations) to keep supplying, including several politicians and donors but it would make a noticeable shift in fortunes.

Plus on a much, much smaller scale but significantly, it seems that Trinity University Dublin have agreed to stop investing in Israel, following protests by students there. Hope UK institutions follow suit if the pressure is kept on.

Posted by: Iz 🌟 10th May 2024, 05:07 PM

A step towards good news as the UN has in principle agreed to push forward into making Palestine a member state. Security Council will still veto it via the US so it's not a done thing but as a member of the UN that'd go some way towards legitimising their state.

Posted by: Cow P 15th May 2024, 05:19 AM

Israel's starting to go all-out on their Rafah invasion now.

Posted by: uhsting 20th May 2024, 05:47 PM

Iranian president dead after helicopter crash

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpwwql21747o

Posted by: Chez Wombat 20th May 2024, 08:58 PM

The bombshells keep coming, the ICC is seeking arrest warrants for Yahya Sinwar and Benjamin Netanyahu for war crimes. Apparently, Putin has this too and he's still sitting pretty so may not mean immediate action, but pretty significant that an official institution has put them on the same level.

Posted by: Steve201 20th May 2024, 10:12 PM

If he visits Washington can they arrest him or will the Americans protect him??

Posted by: Liam sota 21st May 2024, 08:45 AM

The odds of America arresting him probably a trillion to 1 but it could make it difficult for him to get anywhere else

Posted by: Jessie Where 21st May 2024, 11:38 AM

What a headline

Posted by: Iz 🌟 21st May 2024, 04:21 PM

Biden's 'Outrageous' at the ICC makes America far too much of a friend to Israel here, pretty much proving the worst that the left has to throw at him for aiding and abetting a genocide.

Iranian President dying is nothing to mourn but I suspect it's just an accident unless Mossad have really been upping their game at seeding fog clouds (reader: they have not been doing that).

Posted by: Suedehead2 21st May 2024, 06:03 PM

The Americans are not signed up to the ICJ, so the obligation to arrest him doesn’t apply in the USA.

Posted by: Steve201 21st May 2024, 06:48 PM

Really? Thought they’d have been signatories!

Posted by: Silas 24th May 2024, 09:36 AM

God no, aside from the fact that they truly believe they are above all and won’t acknowledge a jurisdiction that is supranational, they’d be in line for so many war crime prosecutions that they’ll never sign up to it

Posted by: Steve201 27th May 2024, 11:01 PM

Copied and pasted statements by the shadow cabinet on the Rafha attack isnt a good look Keir Starmer.

Even the Israeli government calling it a tragedy. The cynic in me thinks he’s watching what he’s saying after the last week!

Posted by: Popchartfreak 28th May 2024, 12:56 PM

Iran meanwhile continues to execute gay people, young people, rappers, mothers, students (see latest news, young rapper and young girl sentenced to death) who say something wrong or wear the wrong clothes; continue to finance terrorism across the region and are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of (mostly Muslim) people, and are intent on the destruction of Israel, democracy and execution of all gays, and subjugation of all women into being birth machines and sex toys and home keepers for men. Iran are not the good guys, and Muslim countries seem uninclined to be doing a thing for the Palestinian homeless while some leaders live abroad in luxury in the oil states.

If you want to keep an eye on what they are up to (because the media never reports it) Omid Djalili is up to speed on X...

Posted by: Steve201 28th May 2024, 02:03 PM

I didn’t once say I supported Iran or Hamas mate it’s isn’t one and the same opinion!