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Posted by: Smint 7th August 2021, 11:27 AM

Is anyone else worried about just how transphobic the UK is getting? I follow Owen Jones, the left wing Guardian journalist who was beaten up by a far right thug and he seems to be in a huge twitter war against the likes of Douglas Murray who claim he is trying to silence women on the issue of whether trans women should have rights. His writings about it here
https://owenjones84.medium.com/the-lies-of-anti-trans-rights-activists-need-to-be-rebutted-once-and-for-all-2780ad5f908

Week after week our newspapers (including prominently The Times which is generally regarded as one of the better right wing rags) publish relentless anti trans columns with virtually no actual trans voices or trans supporting voices in return.
The Government also deliberately stalls on gender self ID and healthcare for trans people with insufferably long waiting lists which effectively means going private or no treatment
Although transphobia exists worldwide, it seems to be the worst in the UK with it being compared with the US Republican right. Why can't the right wing of this country live and let live instead of dividing and demonising minorities? I'm cis myself but hear it's extremely unsafe for many trans people with their mental health being affected.

People say that the UK is one of the most tolerant societies in existence but we all know it's bullshit (apart from the youth who consistently have a progressive outlook). Not much different to the level of Poland and Hungary.

Interested to hear anyone else's opinions on here.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th August 2021, 11:52 AM

Yes. Absolutely. I follow Owen as well, and a number of other political figures who make constant pushbacks against this sort of thing, as well as a number of trans people, so I see this all the time, and Britain really has a bad reputation among developed countries for this sort of thing.

It's been shown that transphobia is a wedge issue for moving people with centre or even centre-left opinions on other issues into supporting traditionalist, right-wing rhetoric, and that really makes it bad. They're able to because of this entirely false and manipulative framing of the issue as one of women's rights.

Always the thing to remember is that trans rights are in effect the front-line of social issues, if they are pushed back, then gay rights, women's rights, whatever else are next.

On a personal level it does upset me, I want a society where all are free to be whatever they want, the UK does not meet that currently, I mean, if I tried saying I'm genderfluid in public (which I am more and more strongly considering myself to be), I'd certainly get a mixed reaction depending on what part of society it was when it really is not anyone's business but one's own.

Posted by: steve201 7th August 2021, 11:56 AM

I have to admit as a white straight male my understanding of the issue is pretty ignorant but I generally think people should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn’t effect others so if they are being discriminated against I will automatically be on their side if that makes sense.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 7th August 2021, 12:26 PM

I went to see Owen live in May 2015 after the frankly depressing 2015 General Election, it was the week that Ireland finally legalised gay marriage IIRC. Anyway he has spoken out really well on this and has challenged a lot of the false narratives that Iz mentions.

I hate the whole 'divide and conquer' approach that has been taken to incite hatred and split those progressives who traditionally support women's rights etc and are led to see trans rights as some kind of threat to this. The British press are absolutely behind much of the blame for this and we've seen as a result a huge increase in transphobic hate crime in 5 years. I think part of the problem is also social media and how some minorities or parts of society are seen as 'fair game' for character assassinations and generalisation - see also: GRT communities. We have tended also to build an online society and media that constantly strives for attention and accesses this by rewarding controversial, false and provocative views; this was covered really well in far better ways than I could explain in the Netlfix documentary The Social Dilemma.

I was watching an old documentary from 1998 the other day that followed people around in their daily lives, and it featured a transgender woman - it wasn't the first thing mentioned about her and it wasn't a major talking point. The viewer empathised with her and she came across well as a likable person. It makes me feel like we're going backwards rather than forwards in terms of tolerance and acceptance.

Edit- Douglas Murray is a CUNT.

Posted by: T Boy 7th August 2021, 02:55 PM

You don’t have to remain ignorant on the issue because you’re a straight white male. You seem tolerant and accepting generally, so why not educate yourself on the issue?

Unfortunately, I have very recently come to the realisation that my parents, in particular my mother, are pretty transphobic. Just one of the home truths I’ve discovered over the course of this pandemic. My dad admits ignorance but uses that as a reason why he shouldn’t discuss it-not exactly trying to better himself. My mum is stuck on how women’s rights are affected and so on. Really sucks.

My sister had a situation at work where she could see an issue involving transphobia (I can’t go into details here) and she almost asked my parents for advice on how to deal with it but luckily she care to me first.

Posted by: blacksquare 7th August 2021, 07:05 PM

What I find especially disturbing is how much journalists in the British press keep forcing a narrative that doesn’t really exist — yet.

Posted by: Quarantilas 7th August 2021, 08:28 PM

I think we’ve imported a dangerous culture war and this is just the start of a potentially dangerous path that will target the LGBT community as a whole. They’re trying to divide and conquer us and far too many of us are letting them


The UK does have a huge e-TERF problem and that is seeping through into the Media and thus into the Mainstream. They get platformed and emboldened by this and the snowball is rolling down that hill.

Gender self ID in Scotland has become a hugely toxic debate but primarily online. I don’t think it quite cuts through to being an issue that most people see the same way as the eTERFs make out. But the likes of that unionist cow JK Terfling and her nationalist counterpart (with a penchant for threatening defamation suits so I will not name this particular SNP MP we all hoped was f***ing off to the Alba Party when they went on „leave“ at a very convenient time but sadly came back although we did get them off our front bench. I’m quite sure y’all know who I’m talking about) gives it high profile backing and you end up with people getting funnelled into TERFdom like how the YouTube algorithm has an uncanny ability to radicalise lonely white boys into actual Nazis.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 7th August 2021, 09:07 PM

Sadly, it does seem to be a key part of this ongoing culture war and divisions we have going on. Media portrayal has historically never been particularly friendly towards trans people (just look at how many villains in films and TV were trans people or men impersonating women in the past, it's worrying) and there's still a long way to go and it doesn't help that prolific and influential names like JK Rowling and Graham Linehan have shown pretty clear transphobia recently, and then there's the continuous problem of constructive discourse leading to 'cancelling' and 'backlash' getting the most publicity and taking away from the issue at hand.

I just wish for once everyone would take a step back and see that the vast majority of trans people just want to be happy and respecting and understanding their wishes and gender dysphoria is the best we can do, rather than implying that this means sex isn't real or that woman are being victimised or related bullshit. If these non-issues continue to be emphasised over basic trans rights, we're never gonna make any progress as all people will see is a war to take a side with.

Posted by: J00prstar 8th August 2021, 04:08 AM

I find it very uncomfortable. I think it's being used as a wedge issue.

I think what a lot of younger and more sheltered people today don't realise is that this seriously is a step backwards. My dad worked with a trans guy in the 90s and no-one had an issue with it apart from people who were already actively bigoted. Homophobes have jumped on trans people as soon as it became socially unacceptable to be homophobic and have stirred the narrative that trans people were something new and a threatening trend. Transition medically has been around for decades and socially for probably all of human history.

As for JK Rowling, projection much? She's really shown her ass to be a hateful person. Let's not even get into the fact that she writes under a male pseudonym and has had plastic surgery out the wazoo to make herself look more traditionally feminine beauty standards.

What I will say is that I think a lot of people in the UK do innately accept trans people and differences out of politeness until the media stirs them into hate and prejudice by connecting things that don't naturally connect. Does anyone remember the story about a drag queen working in schools with kids that was fine with the local community until the media ran a piece implying that the queen in question was taking an adult-oriented burlesque act into schools, which wasn't the case at all.

Posted by: Iz 💀 8th August 2021, 05:43 AM

This has always been incredibly dodgy to me since discovering the pseudonym shares a name with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Galbraith_Heath who worked with conversion therapy. I think she's been in deep for a long while and has found a way to let her bigotry slip more regularly with her more recent callouts.

But all that aside I find it really interesting how while a "Gender Critical" woman is easy to spot (always has something along the lines of 'sex is real' or 'supporting real women' in their online bio and talks about NOTHING ELSE, brainworm-obsessed people), those stats do indicate transphobia is more prevalent among males and I think you do see it a bit more casually with men, who as ever are generally less progressive and more bigoted than women.

A fun recent thing that highlights their absurdities was how TERFs were all seething over Laurel Hubbard participating in Olympic women's weightlifting because 'she has a genetic advantage being born male, this will push women out of their own sport', and then when she failed to register a single lift effortlessly pivoted to 'she's taking the place of women who deserve it more' without a hint of self-awareness.

As to why it is coming up more, I think that trans people are becoming more visible, which is good, but conservative pushback is going to become more visible as a reaction, which is not, but reactionaries are sadly a constant of society.

Posted by: blacksquare 25th August 2021, 04:25 PM

"An important part of our responsibility is to ensure we remain impartial and independent at all times. Our commitment to supporting the rights and freedoms of LGBTQ+ people is as strong as ever", says the media regulator disassociating itself with an LGBTQ+ organisation for supporting the rights of trans people.

Posted by: Quarantilas 25th August 2021, 04:36 PM

You can’t make this shit up. If you pitched this stuff for a political satire show it’s be smacked back as unbelievable

Posted by: Iz 💀 26th August 2021, 05:17 AM

As ever, just after yet another prominent elite (Simon Fallow) had yet another interview in the times about 'the problems of militant trans activists' while never hearing from anyone who is actually trans.

britain is hellfire

Posted by: blacksquare 26th August 2021, 07:36 AM

Quite!

Posted by: J00prstar 27th August 2021, 12:25 PM

People who aren't trans calling 'cis' and 'terf' slurs seems to be the newest angle that the fun mob are taking :')

Managing to become offended by a term that means 'NOT TRANS' and a literal abbreviation like BBC or NASA is mental gymnastics at its finest.

I blame the whole both-sidesism that the media has run with for the last 10-15 years.

Posted by: chartfridays 28th August 2021, 08:04 AM

It's a wedge issue that goes far beyond transgender rights.

LGBTQ+ is about including everybody in society who is of a non-traditional gender or a non-traditional sexuality.

Going after trans people and framing the debate as between gay rights (LGB) and trans rights (T) doesn't just exclude trans people, it also takes Q+ out of the debate without actually saying anything about it.

Which is going to make the job so much easier when they want to come for LGB people,

Posted by: J00prstar 28th August 2021, 07:06 PM

And they do. The 'LGB Alliance' is just the latest case of a wolf calling itself a sheep. Like the 'Taxpayer's Alliance' which is literally a rightwing pressure group naming itself something that sounds wholesome.

Posted by: Smint 30th August 2021, 10:43 PM

Indeed and after Manchester Pride where someone in an LGB Alliance T shirt was ushered out of the event because they are in reality a hate group, the right wing media including GB News then says OMG This gay man is cancelled by a vicious trans right lobby when of course the right wing are the ones that would never have wanted gay rights in the first place.

Depressing that there are so many cis gay people who are very happy to demonise trans people and of course they are the ones (as well as terfs) who the media highlight saying that Trans people are trying to eradicate gay people and women. Not to mention the large number of right wing conservative gay people in the media who now they have rights that the left wing fought for in decades past, want to pull up the drawbridge.

And sadly hate crimes against all LGBT people is rising by a great deal over past few years meaning very difficult for them to hold hands with partners or to act their authentic selves in public but the right wing don't care about that at all do they. No its the evil trans people eradicating the gay people isn't it. As people say masterclass in 'Divide and Rule' and Gaslighting tactics.

Posted by: blacksquare 1st September 2021, 08:37 AM

Transphobic journalists really are just a vocal minority

Posted by: Quarantilas 1st September 2021, 08:56 AM

Honestly a little (pleasantly) surprised at Spain.


Sadly the vocal minority are quite vicious, David Paisley the Scottish actor and trans ally is having to leave Scotland for his safety such is the level of abuse that he gets.

The Scottish Gov needs to just strap it’s grown up pants on and get the GRA reform done and into law so we can stop having this „debate“ that is utterly toxic and harmful. Let’s just affirm people’s rights, get a progressive And freeing law on the books and start letting people live freely and honestly. I think the best way to cut the legs off this toxic crowd of trans- and homophobic bigots is to get it done And show once and for all that like with the arguments against legalising homosexuality and equal marriage that this is nothing but bigotry with no grounding in reality

Posted by: Frenchie 1st September 2021, 09:01 AM

Love to see Britain so high on those stats, although still progress to be made. I wonder how these stats would have been 20 years ago?

Posted by: Smint 1st September 2021, 09:26 AM

It would be great that Britain does respond so well in a poll (although you can't trust one poll as gospel truth). But if the experience for trans people in the UK is nothing but a living nightmare then it sadly doesn't mean much. The vocal minority are nothing but fascists.

Posted by: Iz 💀 8th September 2021, 05:44 AM

even our """"left-wing"""" (scare quotes very much intentional, the Guardian has shown their colours quite enough over the last half-decade) media is doing transphobia... you can read later in the thread that the interview appears to be from the Guardian US side, but the Guardian UK overruled them.

Posted by: Smint 8th September 2021, 09:02 PM

Heard about that. I do love the Guardian (by far the best UK paper) but they're not good on trans issues.

Posted by: Bdelita 9th September 2021, 06:37 AM

Spain And you do feel that regardless of the size of the town you’re in for sure.

Is Scandinavia slowly changing their stance on LGBTQ+?? Seems pretty low to me and I swear I saw higher numbers from those regions before.

Posted by: blacksquare 10th September 2021, 05:35 PM

Sigh.

Posted by: J00prstar 10th September 2021, 05:45 PM

All of these people don't understand self-ID

Once again, like privilege itself, I think it's a bad term for what it tries to convey. Incidentally, also what I think the ease of Brexit was - an easy word to get behind that seems like a clear definition.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 10th September 2021, 06:13 PM

The irony of course is that Rosie Duffield represents the incredibly marginal Canterbury constituency, one which she won through the support from people who are horrified about her quite obvious transphobic views. The blatant tropes coming out in her response I can't even be bothered to respond to. Just so tried of this BS.

Posted by: Bdelita 10th September 2021, 09:10 PM

That Rosie hoe even restricted the tweet so you can imagine how much of an echo chamber the comment section is. That’s TERFs for ya. I love how they claim to support queer people too. No thanks.

Posted by: Iz 💀 10th September 2021, 11:56 PM

Fortunately they've rescinded the investigation in light of noise being made about it, claiming it was started 'by mistake'. Uh huh. I'm always accidentally starting investigations into the chair of a Labour sub-unit for opposing transphobia, it's so easy to do.

Jess Barnard is being an incredibly good advocate for one of the few parts of Labour that hasn't been taken over by factional ideologues. See, I think that trans people are, just like Palestinians, being chosen as acceptable targets for the party to drop support of in a cynical calculation to appeal to the wider electorate. Or otherwise it's an excuse to get rid of those who would oppose Labour being turned into controlled opposition, like Barnard. Either way, f*** Duffield and anyone else in Labour who started this, it's a very concerning series of events.

Posted by: Smint 17th September 2021, 11:30 AM

Awful darling of the right Kemi Badenoch, who is an equalities minister refers to "transwomen" as "men" just 3 years ago. Might as well make Fred West minister for Children.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/09/17/kemi-badenoch-trans-lgbt-rights-tory/

Posted by: J00prstar 20th September 2021, 06:29 PM

Rosie Duffield has now expanded her target to Bi people. Clearly she's working her way up the acronym.

Posted by: dandy* 20th September 2021, 06:56 PM

We're having transgender and intersex awareness sessions at work which I think is a great step forward in our organisation. They're hosted by various people who fall under the trans umbrella and so far they've all been really well received

I thought I knew quite a lot about the subject but I must admit there was a lot that was new to me, really interesting and great to see it being discussed so openly and frankly.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st September 2021, 09:22 AM

That's good to hear Dandy*!

'I did not want to be the centre of attention' - she said to the national newspaper writing a story about her. OK surrrre.

Posted by: J00prstar 21st September 2021, 12:44 PM

In case anyone missed it, on her radio 4 interview she later expanded that the 'threats' she had had were simply in the form of people replying angrily to her on twitter, or taking issue with what she said.

That article is a disgrace. Was Trump 'fiercely abused' by activists who respect women after his comments, or was he rightfully critcised for the hateful words and actions he demonstrated and defended?

Posted by: dandy* 21st September 2021, 01:01 PM

That's a really good example of the things we were discussing in our work sessions yesterday. The hosts were talking about how the media and people who have difficulties with trans people often seem to think that trans people are open for debate as a concept. It's a fact that some people are born intersex and that some people can have lots of biological aspects to their makeup that are 'female' without actually having to have a specific feature - it's ridiculous to say that they're not female just because they don't fit an outdated dictionary style description.

(I must say that this was one of the things I learned more about just yesterday but, as I now know about it, why not PREACH!!!)

Posted by: Smint 21st September 2021, 01:50 PM

The Times and the Sunday Times are particularly nasty about trans people despite generally being seen on the more reasonable side of the right wing press compared to Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph. Not to say they aren't horrible to trans people either.

Posted by: J00prstar 21st September 2021, 07:52 PM

Yes good points both.

In principle I can KIND OF see where anti trans people's concerns COULD come from. But when it comes down to it, they are arguing hypothetical and very unlikely situations as significant enough to actively cause harm - which would likely lead to self-harm, addiction etc. - to a minority group who as it is, have existed among us already for hundreds of years with zero proof of any wrongdoing.

And in order to support their hypotheticals they selectively ignore so much reality. For example, that lesbians exist in the first place - and that many trend towards being more muscular and 'butch' than an average straight woman. A cis woman lesbian could already assault a straight woman in a bathroom. Or a cis man could follow her in. The idea that someone would go through a years-long process, getting surgeries and hormones just in order to be able to do that more easily is laughable, but there it is, a core TERF tenet.

Posted by: spiceboy 21st September 2021, 10:45 PM

Agree with every word!

Posted by: dan:G 22nd September 2021, 12:43 PM

Keir Starmer showing himself as a red Tory again … says trans women should be excluded from some “women only spaces”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3M_KyuvcBhuT_RapWD4U5HkCTFaQ75zfOQRtq8WIZgYDPHSOM5dcdUiGc#Echobox
=1632314241

Posted by: Iz 💀 23rd September 2021, 01:29 AM

As much as I'd love to criticise, Starmer for this, and I am in one sense, he's just reiterating the 2010 Equalities Act which guarantees the right to single-sex spaces. Which shows that that needs to be updated to take into account the needs of trans people. And that he's not calling for this and not sacking Duffield for her continued hate campaign is pretty shameful inaction.

Posted by: dandy* 23rd September 2021, 11:38 AM

Whilst I appreciate the equality act - our rules don't even add up in this space, that in itself should mean they need looking at again.

For example... for a trans or intersex person to have their gender corrected on their birth certificate, they have to be able to demonstrate that they have been living as the gender they are wanting it to be changed to and one of the tests in that is whether they have been using these 'safe spaces'!

Posted by: Smint 26th September 2021, 10:08 PM

Health secretary Savid Javid - who wanted the economy to go back irrespective of the COVID death toll now is covering bad news by tweeting transphobic shit about only women can have a cervix basically erasing transmen.

Bring bang Hancock with his sleaze and corruption anyday of the week.

Posted by: blacksquare 11th October 2021, 11:47 AM

Posted by: dandy* 11th October 2021, 11:52 AM

Wow someone punched her in the face at a restaurant table and nothing was done?!!! Jesus.

Posted by: Quarantilas 11th October 2021, 12:09 PM

It feels like it’s almost every other day my feed has News of a horrific phobic attack. Super depressing really


I wish that our government cared enough to do or say literally anything

Posted by: blacksquare 15th October 2021, 07:01 AM

Yes, this is a real trailer by the BBC.

Posted by: Smint 15th October 2021, 08:39 AM

Absolutely disgusting - but demonising trans people for theatre seems to work for ratings, or in the BBC's case being prominent in the Government's divide and rule strategy.

Posted by: mald487 15th October 2021, 08:44 AM

Absolutely vile.

Posted by: mald487 15th October 2021, 09:06 AM

I'm actually fuming about this, but not sure exactly what I should do.

Posted by: Quarantilas 15th October 2021, 09:43 AM

„Public service“ broadcaster.


Has been unfit for purpose for years now and it’s getting worse

Posted by: Doctor Blind 26th October 2021, 02:15 PM

The BBC are now into sharing transphobic articles apparently..

Posted by: Smint 26th October 2021, 02:32 PM

Worse than sharing, commissioning them. They'll add fuel to the fire - very dangerous when violent crime against LGBT+ people is going through the roof (which is weirdly hardly ever reported on the news).

Posted by: J00prstar 26th October 2021, 03:26 PM

The data in that article comes from...the leader of an anti trans organisation's survey of 80 of her friends/followers. Half of which said they'd never been coerced by a trans woman!

Posted by: Quarantilas 26th October 2021, 06:20 PM

There is something very seriously wrong with the BBC right now. We are on a path where people will die because of this

Posted by: tommie 27th October 2021, 10:13 PM

I'm sorry, but why is it suddenly cool to ignore women's lived experiences? Is it because it makes males and their pre-perceptions, once again, feel uncomfortable?

Posted by: Iz 💀 28th October 2021, 01:43 AM

Stop dogwhistling and come out and say it. Whose women's experiences? What did they experience? Women are on average less transphobic than men. It's a loud vocal minority who makes trends on Twitter that you can see are transphobic a mile off and they should be ignored like the bigots they are.

Absolutely disgusting BBC article, I cannot believe that got printed. The bias is palpable and it's going to cause great harm in the future.

Posted by: tommie 28th October 2021, 03:00 AM

Yes, you're saying it - a "minority" of women. But is it? You don't even dare to confront a fact.

And by the way - if women are less transphobic than men, how comes that women are the ones that are reporting this?

By the way: where the f*** is the women?

Posted by: Iz 💀 28th October 2021, 05:05 AM

It is a fact, as borne out by data collected in polls (that anti-trans people are this numerous is sickening and entirely the result of a media that is filled with the same homophobes who've switched focus to transphobia, but even with that, it is still a minority).

This + further examples in the thread all support that:

Posted by: J00prstar 28th October 2021, 08:09 AM

The article is designed to make any issue it identifies seem much larger and more commonplace than it is.

Assumptions that it makes include:

* All trans women are attracted to women

* Anybody can pressure anyone into sex and no-one can oppose that

* Having certain body parts makes someone a woman. But let's just ignore that if someone born with those body parts has had them removed for non-gender-related medical reasons we'll still consider them a woman. E.g. anyone who had a masectomy or lower surgery

* The fact that the current transition framework in the UK requires someone who wants to to live as that gender full-time for a year BEFORE they are allowed to access hormones or surgeries - guaranteeing that someone pre-transition surgery will identify as e.g. a woman while still having a penis

* Ignoring the fact that female hormones interrupt the normal working of a male reproductive system, making a sexual assault very unlikely to succeed purely from a physical reality standpoint

* and finally, misrepresentation of sources in that article.

I actually wish trans issues COULD be talked about in media openly and honestly. Instead major news media in the UK insists on publishing these kinds of one-sided and suggestive articles where words like 'some', implications and omissions are doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Posted by: tommie 28th October 2021, 08:15 AM

Lol no, but you need to talk about this shit however. It's not fair to spring lesbians with this shit. Come on, you know this, I know this. Why is it suddenly complicated?

Posted by: Bdelita 28th October 2021, 08:34 AM

How very cis&white&male of you to speak and get offended on behalf of women.

Posted by: Quarantilas 28th October 2021, 08:48 AM

Wtf are you on about?????

Posted by: blacksquare 28th October 2021, 10:51 AM

Massive yikes

Posted by: Smint 28th October 2021, 03:40 PM

And the Daily Mail (well known in its history for being supportive of lesbian rights of course ) have published an even worse article, again based on hearsay from a lesbian from the LGB Allaince, saying that trans women are trying to pick up girls as young as 14 in clubs. Won't link to it for the hits but getting unbelievably nasty.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 28th October 2021, 04:47 PM

Thankfully, the BBC article is getting appropriate backlash, it's even being reported in The Times and has a letter that's been signed 10,000 times.

Honestly, where I work in education, I work with several students that identify as 'they' are have even undergone a sex change and gender-neutral toilets and no one bats an eyelid. It's a shame our journalists must keep using their platform to fuel these intolerant views.

Posted by: dandy* 28th October 2021, 08:19 PM

Those articles are awful.

Yes it is wrong if you have a 14 year old being pressured into having sex and yes it is wrong if someone who is trans pressurises them into doing so - but it's so worrying that people can't see how dangerous it is to attribute that so generally to a whole section of society. And to argue that people who object to that don't care about the 14 year olds is ridiculous - of COURSE we don't want 14 year olds to be subjected to that but the message should be that 14 years olds shouldn't pressurised by ANYONE regardless of whether they are straight/gay/lesbian/trans etc.

People need to imagine how they would feel if such blatantly nasty associations were being put on aspects they identify as by the media to make society as whole more scared of them.

Posted by: Smint 28th October 2021, 08:28 PM

Yes those sensationalist articles certainly do the job of moving the minds of people who are neutral/unsure about how they feel regarding trans people more down the sceptical/hostile scale. Exactly how it was for gay people in the 80s.

Posted by: Quarantilas 28th October 2021, 09:02 PM

The second bbc article about the backlash somehow manages to be worse than the first. *insert something about putting shovel down before their hole reaches lava*

Posted by: J00prstar 29th October 2021, 01:37 AM

Great to hear from some of our folk who work in education.

I will say myself as someone who used to work in a university I detest the argument "university is a place for debate" that is always pulled out as to why trans people who are students or staff at university should expect to be disrespected.

Firstly...it isn't. It's a place of work and studying. A debate society is a place for debate, where everyone going in is aware of the rules of engagement and isn't putting their true feelings on the line.

(As some of you will probably have seen that professor Kathleen whatever has now resigned and the media is falling over itself to paint her as a victim while hiding that she is a trustee for that evangelical charity and also apparently writes articles for https://quillette.com!) No doubt she will have a book out soon or be angling for a media career that's less hassle than her academia job and a bit of controversy will help get her name shortlisted.

Posted by: Smint 2nd November 2021, 04:38 PM

And although I would have no doubt that Kemi Badenock (equalities minister for f**cks sake) would think this privately, she has only pubically gone out and defended anti-trans former Sussex University professor Kathleen Stock, insisting: “She is probably in step with the majority of the population.”

And yes expect a Times or Telegraph column for Stock within a month tops.

Posted by: Quarantilas 2nd November 2021, 04:45 PM

Dickhead. She should get her head out of Tory land and into the real world where polling suggests quite firmly the opposite


Tho the why they’re going about things with their pals at the bbc and the print media it won’t be long until it’s actually true.

Posted by: Smint 2nd November 2021, 04:52 PM

That is completely the case sadly - a horrific war on trans people by Tory run government and Tory owned media, in some cases as it's what they believe due to their old fashioned, closed mind views other times a useful culture war weapon in order to guarantee Tory governments going forward. Divide and Rule x 1000.

Posted by: tommie 4th November 2021, 06:18 AM

Ah yes.

Let's remember the greatest hits:

Posted by: Iz 💀 4th November 2021, 06:39 AM

I don't think those people were featured in a BBC report that aimed to legitimize their hatred of a group.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 4th November 2021, 11:02 AM

^Exactly. The BBC is not platforming those people quite rightly, and yet they've given a voice to a violent and dangerous rapist who has literally called for genocide of a minority group (bad enough) WITHOUT even acknowledging it.

BBC News. An utter, utter shitshow rn

Posted by: J00prstar 4th December 2021, 06:51 PM

Latest story in the Telegraph today follows ex-professor Jo Phoenix's quest to get her legal fees paid to sue the Open university for making her feel uncomfortable.

Ms Phoenix set up a 'gender critical' society at the uni and lobbied anti current trans laws, but presents herself as a victim. She wants 100k on her GoFundMe and claims that she is being victimised for private opinions.

Predictably the British media are falling over themselves to defend her to the extent that googling her name + trans or bully only brings up reams of pages of how nebulous trans people have bullied HER. Her, the founder of an anti-trans society at her workplace, a public instutution.

Posted by: Quarantilas 4th December 2021, 08:21 PM

Ok well I ain’t paying the open uni until she’s off the payroll. Fick that

Posted by: spiceboy 17th January 2022, 12:56 PM

That is just vile!

Posted by: Cdelita 17th January 2022, 01:54 PM

Spain is VERY socially progressive. Far more open-minded and progressive than Little England!

Posted by: J00prstar 10th February 2022, 06:25 PM

Slightly irritated/upset by this today.

BBC Radio seems to have an obsession with trans people and my parents are starting to pick up on it. "Did you know J00ps that actually trans people CAN'T compete in sport because it's not fair on women? The radio explained it all".

It's not like the BBC doesn't know that for years its been trusted as a conveyor of multiply-checked facts. "We're just showing balance" alright fair enough but you KNOW that a certain percent of your listeners are going to take whatever you say as gospel rather than just one speaker's opinion.

Posted by: blacksquare 25th March 2022, 01:59 PM

...I would never show my face again

Posted by: Bustin Jieber 25th March 2022, 03:08 PM

That really speaks volumes...

Posted by: dandy* 25th March 2022, 03:56 PM

Quite. If I shared any opinions with him then it would make me seriously reflect on whether I should be rethinking

Posted by: Smint 17th May 2022, 11:06 PM

After the Times posted a very dodgy anti trans story today and Owen Jones tried to find more information about it he got more harrasment on twitter. This inspired this wonderful monologue from him advocating the right ot trans people till he dies.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1526669272654745602

Posted by: J00prstar 19th June 2022, 05:37 PM

Trans women barred from competing in swimming with cis women. Talk of creating a 'third category'.

Amusingly (darkly), in the decision, the swimming association said that no trans person who had not fully transitioned by age 12 would be allowed to compete in the women's category, seemingly accidentally supporting full transition for preteens or at the least, the use of puberty blockers - something that transphobes tend to be vehemently against.

This is international but will affect UK competitors and no doubt the Guardian 'feminists' are itching to write about how thrilled they are.

Posted by: Mack. 20th June 2022, 09:54 AM

Cycling's governing body, the UCI, has toughened its rules on transgender eligibility by doubling the period of time before a rider transitioning from male to female can compete.

Previous regulations required riders to have had testosterone levels below five nanomoles per litre (nmol/L) for a 12-month period prior to competition.

The UCI has changed the permitted level to 2.5 nmol/L for a 24-month period.

It says the new rules have been brought in following "new scientific studies".

The UCI's transgender policy had been under review after being brought into the spotlight by British rider Emily Bridges, one of cycling's most high-profile transgender competitors.

Posted by: Silas 20th June 2022, 10:15 AM

That FINA has not entirely thought through the consequences of their actions is just peak FINA. Useless shower of c**ts

Posted by: Mack. 20th June 2022, 11:15 AM

Indeed typical FINA. Hasn't Sharron Davies been the most vocal in regards to trans woman being banned from completing against woman?

Posted by: Mack. 20th June 2022, 07:52 PM

World Athletics president Lord Coe has hinted the sport could follow swimming in banning transgender women from elite female competitions, insisting "fairness is non-negotiable".

Swimming's world governing body Fina voted on Sunday to stop trans athletes from competing in women's elite races if they have gone through any part of the process of male puberty.

The landmark decision set swimming apart from almost all other Olympic sports, with most using testosterone limits as a basis for inclusion.

But Lord Coe has now revealed that World Athletics is set to discuss adopting a new eligibility policy, and welcomed Fina's move.

Posted by: Mack. 21st June 2022, 03:15 PM

Transgender players have been banned from women's internationals while rugby league's governing body does further research on its inclusion policy.

International Rugby League (IRL) said it wanted to "balance the individual's right to participate... against perceived risk to other participants".


Personally I don't have any problems with transgender people taking part in women's sport at all.

Posted by: Mack. 28th June 2022, 11:16 PM

Nadine Dorries has told the heads of UK sporting bodies that "elite and competitive women's sport must be reserved for people born of the female sex".

Dorries met representatives from 15 sports including football, cricket, rugby, tennis and athletics plus UK Sport and Sport England bosses.

Swimming's world governing body Fina recently voted to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite events if they have gone through any part of the male puberty process.

Britain's Olympic diving champion Tom Daley has said he is "furious" at Fina's decision.

Posted by: dandy* 29th June 2022, 04:31 PM

My gut view is that this feels less black and white than most trans rights issues. Most are hatred and ignorance but I don’t know whether this one is actually based on science or not? I guess it’s possible simply because the original theory is that men and women were originally separated by potential genetic capabilities for sport. A blanket ban doesn’t feel right at all though.

I wouldn’t be personally bothered if I were in a sport as I’d treat everyone equally as people who were likely to beat me

Posted by: J00prstar 29th June 2022, 07:08 PM

I don't agree with banning it until testing has been done.

It feels like sour grapes that as soon as ONE trans competitor in ONE sport starts doing well, the cis world gets cold feet.

It feels like then they only made trans participation accepted in the first case under the assumption that it would never actually occur in life, which feels incredibly mean spirited.

Posted by: Mack. 29th June 2022, 10:34 PM

I don't want to see a blanket ban in all sports either

Posted by: Izzy 💀☄ 29th June 2022, 11:09 PM

Unfortunately an issue that transphobes can use to their advantage as unlike most transphobia, there's a few aspects to the sporting issue that do bear consideration. Having gone through male puberty does make a difference (and hence puberty blockers should be more widely available but as if transphobes would be that thinking or considerate).

However, it's not just puberty though, lowered testoterone levels make a difference, the fact that trans people are a huge minority compared to cis people makes a difference (and even more of a minority in sports than their population proportion would suggest; somewhat unsurprisingly, the HRT process doesn't exactly lend itself well to a life of training to be top in a sport).

It's like, an advantage that would be the same as any athlete being stronger than another. Maybe on a macro level trans women tend to be above average for women in strength but that's a very different thing to them actively taking part in a sport.

Going too hard on the issue also opens up the issue of 'how do you check?' which is very open to abuse especially at lower levels of sport. That's happening in American red states right now. :/

Posted by: dannjohn 6th September 2022, 04:18 PM

There's been a hugely popular #YoungGCWomenUnite hashtag on Twitter and James Dreyfus has agreed...

There seems to be an ongoing commentary about Trans issues, certainly in the UK. Do we know why that is?

Posted by: Envoirment 6th September 2022, 06:24 PM

Most likely due to JK Rowling's tweet in 2020 about menstruation which has snowballed in a number of ways since.

Posted by: Silas 8th September 2022, 10:10 AM

The vacuum of intelligence that is the new PM has decided that a major priority will be to blow up the UKs current constitutional arrangements by trying to torpedo a bill within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. The population of Scotland overwhelmingly support this, all but the Tories at Holyrood support this bill (a super majority), and talk about inflaming separatist sentiments by imposing ideology from London that is contrary to the stated will of the people…from a person with 0 mandate from the people of Scotland. The Tories just keep gifting us more and more reasons for independence and so so so much free campaign material

Posted by: blacksquare 8th October 2022, 12:02 PM

Impressive stuff by Sturgeon here — I wish more politicians (Labour...) had this clarity and conviction when discussing trans people.

Posted by: Silas 8th October 2022, 12:28 PM

Just watched that on twitter the now. I think she makes the case extremely clearly and strongly. This isn’t changing anyone’s rights. It’s altering a Bürokratischen process (it’s says something that I can spell that word in German but not English) and that’s it. It’s a life changing alteration for those who need to use the process but it doesn’t magic them new rights or remove any safe guarding or protections or whatever other strawman arguments the terfs let dribble out

Posted by: J00prstar 8th October 2022, 12:46 PM

JK Rowling is such a useful idiot.

Even if she doesn't want cis women to share spaces with people with penises or who 'look manly'... she hasn't got the awareness to realise that opposing trans people's access to hormones & surgery creates that exact situation.

Posted by: T Boy 8th October 2022, 05:32 PM

So eloquently spoken and hitting the point right there.

I’ve just been educating my transphobic parents this afternoon. I’ve dispelled a lot of the myths they believe by using my own experience of working with trans students and to be fair they were listening. I also happened to make them realise that JK Rowling is dangerous. My dad had been under the impression that people were cancelling her over one comment but I showed him her recent tweets and he acknowledged that she’s causing damage.

I’ve got a long way to go and may never get there but it’s always good to see progress.

Posted by: J00prstar 15th October 2022, 06:37 PM

This was a really great breakdown. Wow!



Basically this well-researched piece shines a light on exactly how fake and misleading a lot of the people JK Rowling stands with now are, and that while they claim to be 'just against SOME trans people or ALL trans people in defence of womens rights', in actuality they are funded by American conservatives and religious zealots who have goals like imprisoning lesbians, banning gay marriage and women working, and getting rid of abortion rights etc. etc.

They simply claim when they're interviewed to only care about women's rights, but in their actions, publishing and other talks go into more of the other content.

Posted by: Iz Truss 16th October 2022, 03:18 AM

^That's a very good piece going through all of the most notorious TERFs on Twitter and I'd also like to add this one that I watched last night, all about the 'reasonable just-asking-questions' that the media do with regards to the trans debate. In that they get clicks for asking people like Labour MPs questions about 'the trans debate' and watch them squirm. It is despicable.



It's this that is one of two reasons* why people saying 'The Guardian is ridiculously left-wing' feels completely at odds with my experience with them, same with The New Statesman, both among the better media outlets this country has, but still exemplifying this polite liberal transphobia.

*the other reason is their pro-system bias that leads them to be against any proper left-wing force but that's not the topic here

Posted by: Silence of the Wombats 16th October 2022, 12:41 PM

Both of those guys are great from their other videos, will make sure to watch these!

Shaun also did a video on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1iaJWSwUZs, it's not specifically about JK herself (or indeed transphobia), but you can see through the deeper meanings he goes through how the signs of this bigotry were there all along. It's a long one, but it's worth it.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 18th October 2022, 10:36 PM

Well the irony-o-meter has really just blown up in the last few days now that Graham Norton has been 'cancelled' by those complaining about 'cancel culture'.

I think he made a pretty good point about how we should when discussing trans issues maybe listen and talk to the trans community.

Graham 'bin fire' Linehan getting involved as well- the man has descended into complete 100% transphobia and hatred, destroying his life, and for what? Absolutely beyond deranged.

Posted by: TheInvisibleMan 19th October 2022, 08:03 AM

The Graham Norton thing is truly bizarre. I mean seriously? All he did was suggest we should be asking and listening to trans people for their views and not random celebrities. It’s appalling

Posted by: Silas 19th October 2022, 08:40 AM

He said like literally nothing. In the best way. He didn’t take the bait and said let’s refocus the lens on someone who can actually give an input of value. How is that controversial like at all?? Personally I thought his answer was really measured and respectful and considerate

Posted by: Axe Wound 19th October 2022, 09:44 AM

https://www.aol.co.uk/entertainment/graham-norton-deletes-twitter-jk-134517743.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKGozKRz_n9c7fGi839Dm-T3kJ_TpCac4kShpqkWqrq7kLoIY5ZYUwzCgUKYUswsAHRtay4wHUT50DuCYRWm6b7vQ3OXOhJQLexa_I
7jKmRcsUwAi17DeoRRB_7HtyjcQbvcCAkmypUquqFTIH85OGluI39TrFyTeUo8JTqZl0Xs

I like how this article puts it - that she saw it as an attack on herseld, as the anti-trans hysteria relies on celebrity voices and abstract hysteria. Add in real people and voices, and the celebroty and their opiniond lose their clout.

Her reply to the situation, though, my god! "I get lots of money so I don't care! Hur hur."

Posted by: כן 19th October 2022, 10:37 AM

The whole thing is drenched in irony, hypocrisy and sheep behaviour to say the least. People who are voicing TERF opinions are doing the exact same thing as cishet men in power trying to control women and their reproductive rights, as an example. It's ridiculous that everyone seems to conveniently ignore the fact that the media is still predominantly controlled by rich men with anti-liberal agenda. They always be against the progress and women's rights, yet TERFs are siding with them instead of actually listening to trans people without using the same tired examples of the cases of abusive transwomen that are blasted everywhere for one reason only - create panic and demonise the trans community.

Talking on behalf of trans people even happened to me here in Berlin when a male and a femme queer in a bar started going off about us (cis queers, even though I'm not) dancing on stage that is supposed to be exclusively for trans performers. Although there were plenty of other people there, the drag show was already over and not a single trans person actually voiced their own opinion or discontent in regards to the issue. It's all with good intentions, I hope, but still it's appalling that even within the LGBTQ+ community we are faced with this wedge.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th October 2022, 10:54 PM

^Exactly - I agree with all of the above. It's insane to me that there can be any other conclusion as to what Graham said there (unless being disingenuous)- which was to put a very restrained, articulate and succinct point across without seeking to drive further division. The people that moan loudest about being 'cancelled' for their 'wrong' opinion are the ones that never seem to stop going on about it and become fixated and obsessed with the topic because they cannot accept that the general consensus of the population disagrees with them, and they do this to the point where it becomes the ONLY thing that they use their platform for. Yet despite this, they are essentially freely able to spout their horrible, hateful, transphobic garbage. However, the point that Graham Norton made was that there is accountability for what they say, free speech is a right but it has limits, universally acknowledged and accepted like incitement, hate speech, libel etc. The consequences that come as a result: court cases for libel, fewer book sales, fewer public bookings, increased hostility etc. are I'm afraid something that cannot be shouted away - the opinions can and should be heard and debated in a free society, but I am sick of a minority being thrown under the bus because of people's ignorance and prejudice disguised under an ulterior motive.

Anyway, Owen Jones gave a pretty good and passionate speech tonight on the topic...

Posted by: dannjohn 26th October 2022, 07:45 AM

Trans week of visibility is coming up and i'm personally a bit nervous about how that's going to be for trans people - on and offline

Posted by: Smint 26th October 2022, 11:34 PM

I'm guessing pretty horrific, sadly, although they do have a lot more people in favour of trans rights than against, it's just a very loud foul minority. An example being this ghastly Tory MP Lee Anderson who made these comments about potential Labour candidate Eddie Izzard. Playground bully aptly describes him.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/oct/26/tory-mp-under-fire-for-transphobic-comments-about-eddie-izzard

Posted by: dannjohn 27th October 2022, 07:55 AM

A lot of mainstream is very "hybrid" against trans rights (BBC for example pictures trans rights in a debate). GB News, Daily Mail and TalkTV are very right wing.

Posted by: Scary Spiceboy 27th October 2022, 08:15 AM

Lee Anderson is disgusting wouldn’t want to follow that ugly transphobic into the toilets either so he can stfu. Facts, homophobic, sexist and transphobic people should not be allowed to be MPs it’s just not an even playing field if so… then again when is it ever?

Posted by: dannjohn 27th October 2022, 08:44 AM

i'm not sure there's that many people in parliament who are fully pro-trans

Posted by: Scary Spiceboy 27th October 2022, 09:13 AM

It’s not even about being pro-trans rather than not being outright anti-trans.

Posted by: Jessie Where 27th October 2022, 09:17 AM

Indeed, and that new appointment for Equalities Minister is seriously alarming.

Posted by: Rizhi Sunak 27th October 2022, 10:07 AM

yeesh I had overlooked Badenoch right where she shouldn't be. Like Dorries as culture war secretary, but worse, because now it's Badenoch as the war on equality minister (presumed and covert - expect to see a lot of references to white working-class males).

Posted by: Doctor Blind 27th October 2022, 11:33 AM

So I think what Lee Anderson is saying, is that he'd usually follow female MPs into the toilet, right?

peak gammon.

Also - latest Private Eye has some interesting insights about him. Thoroughly unpleasant person.

Posted by: Smint 27th October 2022, 10:43 PM

To be fair there's quite a lot of pro trans MPs in the commons, obviously mainly in opposition parties but even some Tories are fully pro trans - Caroline Nokes is the most prominent but several others (Theresa May wanted to make life easier for trans people don't' forget). Yet Sunak pick someone who despises trans people as equalities minister. Like putting Rosemary West in charge of childcare say. I don't even think most Tory MPs are really anti trans personally - but it's the type of prejudice that people get away with because it's an easy target which enrages a small amount of the people with very little if any fightback from the trans people themselves (and they don't have lobby groups protecting them). And when their policies are failing, they bring out the culture wars card. Grim.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 22nd December 2022, 03:33 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64066938

The Scottish government have passed by a majority of 86 to 39 the Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which will makes the process of applying for GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) much less intrusive and distressing for people and ultimately make the lives of trans people slightly better.

Been following this thread live-tweeting from the gallery, which has some choice moments:

Posted by: Smint 22nd December 2022, 03:44 PM

Of course Scotland way in front of the rest of the UK in equal rights despite the Tories doing their best to wreck the motion. Great news!

Posted by: Silas 22nd December 2022, 04:52 PM

I was also following their threads! They were quite detailed I thought.

Very happy to see this finally pass. It’s been on the cards for years and is the most consulted on bill in Scottish history. Things have gotten so viciously toxic around this bill. I am glad that despite the best attempts of the Tories and some phobes in other parties and the gov itself, that it has made it through relatively unscathed. Hoping now when it becomes law the debate calms down and things detoxify as the GRCs move onto another country with their hysterical make believe bullshit

Posted by: J00prstar 22nd December 2022, 05:56 PM

I kinda think the arguments around toilets fall apart as soon as you point out that most loos in premises that aren't single cubicle now warn that 'both male and female attendants clean here'.

Surely the easier job is to dress as a cleaner than trying to feign being trans.

Posted by: Smint 23rd December 2022, 01:56 AM

Heard the evil Tories may refuse to give this Royal assent and try to block it which will cause a bit of a constitutional crisis and further strengthen independence case. But will probably succeed in distraction from the horrific economic climate the country is in.

Posted by: JSG 23rd December 2022, 07:57 AM

The replies to this news on Twitter is horrendous. I am very proud to be Scottish though, yesterday was a great day for the trans community.

Posted by: blacksquare 16th January 2023, 05:53 PM

Does cross party support in Scottish parliament and democracy mean anything, or…

Posted by: blacksquare 16th January 2023, 05:54 PM

Union of equals, remember!

Disgusting.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 16th January 2023, 05:59 PM

Jesus, the first ever use of Section 35 and it's to stop a law making life easier for a marginalised group of people.

Disgraceful.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th January 2023, 06:03 PM

Shameful.

Oh well, the United Kingdom is over. Rise Scotland rise. I'm too angry to formulate a proper response rn.

Posted by: JSG 16th January 2023, 06:12 PM

The UK government has no shame. At all. The lengths they'll go to to make life harder is unreal. This in particular is just pure shite. Honestly just shite.
This had cross party support from every party in Scotland, even some conservatives were on the side of this being a good thing then just for the UK government to do it's usual and bulldoze democracy to smithereens.

Posted by: dandy* 16th January 2023, 06:15 PM

Interesting. I wonder if they knew that this was likely to happen before passing the bill? I don't know if they would typically get a sense of this but I would imagine it's likely that Westminster and Hollyrood would be aware of the likely views of the other.

Regardless, I'm sure that the SNP are delighted as it will definitely further the cause for independence - they must have seen it as a win/win situation really. The only thing I'm not sure of is actually what the Scottish people think of trans rights - is there a majority among the people in Scotland for this to happen? I've seen a pretty balanced set of opinions from Scots online reacting to the news with just as many in favour as against. Difficult to know whether that translates in to the feelings of the wider nation or not though.

Posted by: JSG 16th January 2023, 06:31 PM

I think the feeling is split down the middle, mich like independence that this bill should have went ahead. The majority I see for reasons against it is that it is making life unsafe for women and children and easier for rapists and paedophiles. Personally I fall on the side of making life a little bit easier for an already victimised minority. This law is already present in many countries with no advers effects so I'm not quite sure why the UK government seems to hate this bill so much.

Posted by: dandy* 16th January 2023, 06:51 PM

Oh I don't understand why they've decided to use powers on this one... I mean even if they're totally against it in the other nations then they had a chance to let it play out in Scotland to make a more informed decision about the rest of the UK later. I guess maybe they were scared it would pan out absolutely fine (which I do think it would, don't get me wrong) - but even then it's a bizarre decision.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th January 2023, 06:56 PM

I think that's exactly why, the same legislation was introduced in Germany last year for example- they (the Tories) need to keep these culture wars alive to help them politically keep together their voter coalition, and they don't care about who it ultimately harms.

It'll be a tetchy #Tyskysour tonight...

Posted by: T Boy 16th January 2023, 07:11 PM

The United Kingdom needs to end. Not only is blocking this particular bill horrifically inhumane but why should a nation not have it’s own power to do these things without threat of the bigger bullying nation intervening?

Posted by: Silas 16th January 2023, 07:28 PM

TERFs are an overrepresented vocal minority online, the actual polling of Scotland is generally in favour of the reform but the screeds of misinformation coming from the likes of the Daily Hitler etc do not help matters and the debate has become weaponised and needlessly toxic by confusing it with what it aims to do (streamline a process) with a whole mountain of things it has absolutely zero impact on. It makes no changes to what you need a GRC to do, or what you can do with/without one, just alters the process on how to get one to be a process that is less medicalised and less expensive and degrading.


There is far far far too much misinformation around this entire issue. There is a growing list of countries that have already introduced these reforms without issue. Indeed, the GRR (Scotland) Act 2023 is nowhere near international gold standard. It is an improvement for those whom it directly impacts but it is very much a compromise position





The Section 35 order has been incorrectly applied. If there was a concern about the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament then it would have been addressed via existing other mechanisms. This is a very big gamble by the UK Gov and all it does is add another brick in hadrians wall. Demographically speaking the Union is already on its death bed, this won't do anything to reverse the slide. It aint even giving palliative care, this is a placebo for unionists and nothing more.

Posted by: Suedehead2 16th January 2023, 09:06 PM

The fact that similar legislation has been passed elsewhere has been almost totally ignored in all coverage of this issue. People could be forgiven that the Scottish legislation is revolutionary and unprecedented.

Posted by: Herbs 16th January 2023, 09:17 PM

Such sad news that the Government are just openly being transphobic now.

You'd think Sunak would want to start off without something like this so early into his tenure.....

Posted by: Smint 16th January 2023, 09:49 PM

Sunak has shown already he is a spineless, opportunist, charlatan who exists to protect the wealthy and has no principles of his own. He knows exactly what he is doing - trying to get the nasty press, UKippers on side and very happy to use trans people as collateral. The attack on Sturgeon is just a juicy bonus. The even more depressing thing is that Starmer is. playing that game too to a certain extent.
Whether it is enough to aid independence greatly on its own, I'm not too sure. Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't see this as a hill that Scottish people would die on. But it would be used as an example of England's bullying and arrogance.

Coming after the Tories have introduced legislation to ban even more types of peaceful protest this is yet more dark days for the UK. People say "It can never happen here" about the Nazi Germany but my God, it's beginning - even though the exact destination may be different, the language against minorities, the corrupt Government, the divide and rule during hard financial times for all, it's all there.

Although the ones I REALLY hate for all of this is the fascist 5 newspapers - Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Times. Thousands of trans articles posted every year - all of them negative, never including trans voices.

For what it's worth, I do think the good will out and trans will finally get freedom and experience trans joy in the UK but my God it's not going to be pretty in the meantime.

Posted by: JSG 17th January 2023, 01:02 AM

The main thing I keep seeing is that it's harms women's rights and is dangerous to children, as I keep reading on Facebook. This it's implying that it's men transitioning to women that are the issue.

What about women transitioning to men? How is that any different? Why isn't it a problem?

My other issue is why the f*** are the Tory party so hell bent on A- trying to do whatever they can to piss off the Scottish electorate and B- acting as if we're back in the 1500's and blocking progress on a bill that has already been passed in multiple other countries without issue?

Posted by: J00prstar 17th January 2023, 02:59 AM

Liars, the lot of them. The sheer amount of bad faith and misquoting in this discussion is absolutely infuriating.

This is just what political discussion seems to look like now in the UK. Let's not talk about what legislation ACTUALLY means, but what (unimformed and uneducated) people THINK it means...

Posted by: J00prstar 17th January 2023, 03:01 AM

You would be forgiven for thinking lesbians don't exist either.

The discussion of sexual and also general assaults the way its framed always STRONGLY implies there is NO WAY any woman could pose any kind of threat to any other woman.

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th January 2023, 04:19 AM

And in addition to what J00p says, ignores the safety of trans women themselves.

It's also in no way a harming of women's rights or is a danger to children. It advances the freedom of people to choose - doesn't detract from what cis women are, and makes it less likely trans children will be harmed, not more. What it IS is a threat to traditional society and so people get concerned about 'degeneracy'.

As for the Tories, this is absolutely not what the union needs to survive and the sooner they stop speaking for England by running roughshod over devolved parliaments the better.

Posted by: JSG 17th January 2023, 06:41 AM

Yes, I maybe should have included the first bit. Also, I just want to make it clear that what I said in my post was based on what I've been reading as the main sentiment towards the hostility of this bill and that I know that there's no harm to women's rights or the safety of children. I'm not sure if you were telling me that it doesn't do any of those things because you thought I did or if you were agreeing with me.

And yes that is exactly right about the union. I'm not a unionist by any means and I reckon Independence could be a brilliant thing for Scotland but it really is starting to feel like the Tory government are trying to drive up anti-engkish sentiment from Scotland at the moment. I wonder if maybe they're for seperating the union as well but don't want to go ahead and shout that everywhere and so underhandedly push support for independence. Like I know that's a crazy theory but anything is possible these days right?

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th January 2023, 11:41 AM

Oh yeah, I just felt like re-emphasising and debunking those claims against it, because while they are baseless, read at face value some, not you, could argue that they have some basis in fact.

So I don't think that the Conservative government is doing this with any desire to make the independence case move in one direction or the other, nor was it the idea of the SNP with this bill, despite baseless claims I've seen to the contrary elsewhere on the internet. Though it may lead to further consequences. What's far more likely is that the Conservatives have gotten high on their own supply once again, judged our incredibly transphobic press to be the mood of the country, and gone for stamping out any pro-trans bills so that come election time hacks can write thinkpieces on how Conservatives protect women and Labour are the real danger to women's rights. Transphobia completely destroys people's brains.

Fun thing is that none of the screeching tabloids, at least UK-wide, have really backed them on it, it's only a second line in the more serious papers and it didn't even make The Times front page, there's not really a way they can sell 'threatened the state of the union over an improvement to the Equality Act' in big scary lettering plus it's not Boris doing this.

Posted by: J00prstar 17th January 2023, 12:22 PM

It's just wild to see it come to this.

Go back 20 years and a trans woman won Big Brother, voted for by the British public as the one they liked the best. Cher's son came out as trans roughly 15 years ago and there was no suggestion that this was perverse or any kind of threat to anyone. Dana International won Eurovision in the 90s while (gasp) being trans.

The 'general public mood' on trans people hasn't shifted organically to the negative as much as people have been whipped up to have fear and prejudice towards trans people by a few bad faith actors in the media and the political sphere looking for a quick win and not caring if that actually harms REAL HUMAN people as part of it.

Posted by: Smint 17th January 2023, 10:33 PM

Well of course Eurovision is being hosted by the UK in just a few months where there will likely be trans representation I guess (I watch it but don't follow the build up so can't guarantee) - will really highlight how bad things are for them at the moment. Of course in the USA, for which a lot of our far right like to mimic, they have, in several states banned any drag or cross dressing performance where there is a risk that a child can see, even if it is completely non sexual - like reading stories to them.
Anyway the blocking of the Scottish Parliament decision passed with a grand total of 11 Labour MPs voting against. Very disappointing.

Posted by: Jessie Where 17th January 2023, 11:17 PM

So many TERFs in the Labour party, it's not exactly surprising.

Posted by: כן 18th January 2023, 09:45 AM

No better way to get absolutely f***ing triggered and have your day ruined than to see new replies in this thread in the morning.

These conservative fascist governments need to be stopped.

Posted by: Smint 18th January 2023, 09:53 PM

Seen a lot of commentators and people on twitter saying that Labour are picking their battles carefully and that they don't want to be dragged into culture war issues. Which I can understand in some circumstances (drug legalisation, going full on for rejoining the EU), I can't agree with on this particular issue. Firstly, these are vulnerable people's lives at stake and these policies and the reporting around it furthermore drives up casual hatred against trans people, effectively making it open season. Secondly, I would want a Labour government that stood up against the horrific right wing media that has for decades cast poison and division in this country. If not now, when?

Would I still vote for Labour though, despite all that - and my local MP is not on the list of people who voted against - I would, you have to go for the best option running and hope that the worst of Labour is better than the best of the Tories.

Posted by: J00prstar 21st January 2023, 02:34 PM

I went to the protest in Glasgow today. Solidarity. Although I did think some of the chants will give Tories & conservatives ammunition against the queer community unfortunately.

Also met Lawrence Chaney!

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 5th February 2023, 05:41 PM

Did anyone see QT with India Willoughby on it? Truly harrowing stuff - India made a lot of valid points but was shouted at and belittled with very little support and the audience applauding transphobia!

I knew it was getting bad but not THAT bad. I really need to get involved with more protests and action because the state of transphobia within this country is astounding and I hold JK Rowling accountable for a lot of it, a vile horrid witch of a woman who needs to be burnt at the stake.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 5th February 2023, 05:48 PM

The rich always rile people up against one scapegoat or another. They whipped up MASSIVE xenophobia over Brexshit, and MASSIVE mass hysteria over the EU, when people just didn't care before it now they are doing the same over trans people and allies. Looking throughout history, we can see people can be fed hatred and respond with mass hysteria - witch trials, homophobia, sexism, VERY conservative morals, etc... It doesn't surprise me that the audience is like this, espexially with BBTory purposefully searching doe right wingers for QuestionTime to influence, even more, the Overton Window.

Posted by: Smint 5th February 2023, 10:25 PM

Yes rally today run by Posie Parker - a completely hideous Nazi collaborator TERF in Glasgow, although they were met by a counter protest singing disco classics! Does mean Pride parades this year could be interesting now that there is a becoming a huge mainstreaming of hatred against the LGBT community.

Posted by: T Boy 11th February 2023, 06:39 PM

I’ve just been to visit my parents who I currently have a better relationship with now that their Covid madness has subsided but we ended up discussing the trans community and it just sucks how transphobic my parents are. They seem to take umbridge with the community for ‘not being tolerant of people who struggle to understand’ which is of course one of the biggest hypocrisies I’ve ever heard. Their take seems to be basically assume the younger generation are being ageist by not accepting older people not being accepting of the trans community. I did argue this with them but it’s fruitless. I do worry that this is something that will happen to me with age.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th February 2023, 09:18 AM

Absolutely tragic.



The British media is truly beyond repair.

Posted by: J00prstar 13th February 2023, 09:32 AM

British people in online spaces are so angry. Very little emotional intelligence. It's quite disturbing to be honest.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th February 2023, 09:39 AM

This entire story and how the media has responded to it has really enraged me — the poor girl.

Posted by: blacksquare 13th February 2023, 09:40 AM

What are they saying?

Posted by: Iz 💀 13th February 2023, 11:19 AM

Desperately sad story. And the media reporting on it, downplaying the fact she was trans while they highlight it when the story is about an unsympathetic person. Awful.

These are the consequences of dehumanising trans people.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 13th February 2023, 10:51 PM

I haven't stopped thinking about Brianna's tragic death all day, absolutely vile and heartbreaking. She had her whole life ahead of her, from what I've seen she had a bit of a Tik Tok following and was so brave in being her true self when Britain is disgustingly transphobic.

The way various media outlets are reporting about her by her deadnamed, miagendering or just referring to her as a "transgender girl" is quite frankly disgusting. I'm seeing comments all over Twitter saying utter hateful nasty shite that I won't repeat on here in fear of triggering anyone.

This has to stop, JK Rowling, the far right media and the Tory party have blood on their hands with this. When will it stop?! Leave trans people alone and stop this absolutely absurd fake narrative that people are trans to invade women's spaces! It is a myth and just frankly doesn't exist.

I think for me it's not enough to not be transphobic, people (myself included) need to be anti transphobic and show up for trans people. Trans lives matter and trans women are women and trans men are men no matter what the media and the ugly disgusting TERFS suggest otherwise.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 13th February 2023, 11:10 PM

I read an article last night, as the death of a 16 year old in a park is shocking, and then I read the comments... The press really can rile up hate in this country

Posted by: Jessie Where 14th February 2023, 08:46 AM

Such a heartbreaking story, and I can't believe the Times actually deadnamed the poor girl.

(Actually, on second thoughts I can believe it of them)

Posted by: Silas 14th February 2023, 08:58 AM

I think the worst aspect of this for me is that the „alleged“ perpetrators are just 15. Which means they’re probably her classmates. The thought of doing such a horrid thing is vile, but at that age? Exactly where did they learn that hatred from is the question plenty of people in the media and right wing should be asking themselves. Especially from influential people like JK Terfling who plenty of young kids do look up to as the author of Harry Potter.


A senseless and needless loss of life.



I did see something on twitter about the local authority and local police having a history of minimising and dismissing serious bullying. Had they actually taken this seriously, perhaps Brianna might still be alive

Posted by: J00prstar 14th February 2023, 10:04 AM

I don't know how I feel about the vigils. I hope the family take some comfort from them. It feels to me a bit gruesome as well.

Posted by: J00prstar 14th February 2023, 10:07 AM

I was explaining recently to my sibling how trans rights have in many ways gone backwards in this country. Go back 20 years and there was more joking at trans people's expense, yes, but also much less hysteria and outright vitriol directed in the direction of trans people specifically.

There was a trans kid at my highschool 10-15 years ago and even in our religious community nobody was actually intimidated by the concept. It was looked on as a curiosity, but ultimately something private like a medical issue.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 14th February 2023, 03:07 PM

I think it's important for the trans community and people who knew of her to deal with their loss across the country and showing solidarity with trans people.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 14th February 2023, 04:20 PM

Brianna's murder is now being investigated as a hate crime.

Posted by: spiceboy 14th February 2023, 04:40 PM

The whole thing about it not being a hate crime initially did not sit right with me. Two teenagers murdered her it’s very likely they knew her already. My heart breaks for her and her family I cannot believe she will be misgendered in death. My cousin is 15 and trans and I cannot bear the thought they could do that to her too. It’s f***ing disgusting!

Posted by: J00prstar 14th February 2023, 05:03 PM

I also think there's a bit of a question mark over the hate crime thing that some people are jumping on.

The fact she is dead is awful either way. But the fact that she was trans doesn't necessarily suggest that she was murdered BECAUSE she was trans, and I do feel to an extent that there's some bad faith behind suggesting that there would be a miscarriage of justice if that didn't turn out to be the case.

By all means, investigate all angles, of course. I just think if I was murdered by some nutter, say because they wanted to steal my phone or something and got carried away, it wouldn't necessarily be a hate crime just because I'm a minority. I want the focus of the case to stay on Brianna herself, not the beliefs of the perpetrators - until that is proved to be relevant directly.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 14th February 2023, 06:21 PM

I don't think people are getting carried away with saying it's a hate crime at all, and is now being investigated as one! A lot of her friends/family have reported she was bullied for being trans which largely went unnoticed and ignored by the police and could have been prevented which makes me so mad

Posted by: Jade 14th February 2023, 06:26 PM

Shame on the media reporting.

What an upsetting incident - I think being reminded that she was born in 2007 really hammers home how young she was...

Posted by: dandy* 14th February 2023, 06:44 PM

I'm not sure I think it's gone backwards. The hatred and fear has always been there, the people simply didn't have the multiple platforms to express it so easily without facing up to the people involved. Most of the people who spout hatred online wouldn't say a word in real life, which doesn't make it any better of course but it doesn't mean they weren't saying the same things in their social groups years ago. I've known trans people for many years and their lives 15-20 years ago were far worse than they are now in terms of acceptance. It's a sign of how accepted they have become in a lot of communities that we're getting this vocal backlash from scared right wingers - honestly years ago my friend would be actively shouted at, spat at and threatened on a regular basis when we were out and it would stem from a whole range of different people. These days the looks are still there but it's rare that she hears anything directly targeted at her.



And on this specific instance, I do think it's important that people show their support and actively challenge the way some people are talking about the situation. The vigils are appropriate imo and I think it's actually quite a natural reaction to show support for any child who has been brutally killed like this. I know it could be the case that this crime was as a result of some other thing but carrying a knife suggests a pre-meditated reason which most of those aren't - and realistically (and sadly) history has taught us that it is likely to have been that the perpetrators were transphobic. I've been kinda reassured a little today at work that a lot of my colleagues were talking about how awful it was and how inhumane it has been that people have been using the death as an excuse to discuss pronouns etc - there was a real sense of disgust about those who have been doing that.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 14th February 2023, 07:20 PM

It's horrible that even a cold-blooded murder of a trans person is still something that some people feel a need to debate over, this is a simple horrific crime that clearly had hateful motivations if nothing else, and warrants further investigation in order to identify motives. The fact some people/media have such an issue labeling it as so is telling.

Such a horrible thing to happen. I do feel trans rights are at a good place in the UK that many young people feel confident enough and make decisions for themselves about their gender, we have many of these students in our college and no one bats an eyelid, but sadly it has meant there's been a big rise in covert transphobia particularly with our current politicians and renowned celebrities commenting on it, as well as tabloid rags looking for some bullshit to stoke a moral panic. It's just egging on hateful individuals like these so they can't feign surprise when it happens, I can't comment of course, but I'd be surprised if these two weren't influenced by this in some way.

Posted by: J00prstar 14th February 2023, 07:33 PM

I'm not opposing btw, I just don't want it to be taken over by a misleading cause and then that causes the perpetrators to get off.
I kinda assumed it was a given the cops would examine all possible angles.

As for the vigils, respect to anyone that takes comfort from them. For me that kind of thing would just upset me so I wouldn't go along to it. Likewise for the one for Sarah Everard.

Tbh I'm really upset by all of this. It's just wicked when a child dies or is the victim of a crime. The family will never be the same.

Posted by: dandy* 14th February 2023, 08:53 PM

Didn't think for a second you were opposing Joops x

And yes, I agree, it is just really upsetting and horrific. I don't think I'd ever get over it if anything happened to my nephew, nevermind about the poor families who lose a child.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 14th February 2023, 09:13 PM

Yes, exactly the reason that I was so angry when the UK Government blocked the Scottish Parliament for a few points in the polls. Surely this can only make the pain for the friends and family even worse than it already is. Can only echo the points made in this thread about how tragic and disturbing this has been.

I'm not sure that I entirely accept your point about things not getting worse or going backwards Dandy*. For me the conversation has been made so toxic in recent years, partly by those who have a large platform and should know better spending all of their time vilifying the trans community, amplified by a print and social media which rewards clicks and shares - ultimately fuelled by heightening the anger and fear responses everyone has. Hard to believe that Nadia Almada got 75% of the vote to win Big Brother at the height of its popularity in 2004, and I remember a BBC documentary in the late 90s (Paddington Green?) where they followed a trans woman's daily life and there was barely any mention of the fact that she was trans. What have we become?

Posted by: dandy* 14th February 2023, 09:39 PM

I'm not really saying it can't go backwards or become worse... I'm more saying that on a day to day basis, things are not as bad in society for trans people as they were about 20 years ago. I'm really happy to hear the contrary from people who are trans but the ones I know would definitely not swap how things are now for what it was like back then. I think people can take our own exposure to media stories around it, high profile influencers etc as being a reality but it's more that they just have a more public platform - which is the point I was making around it being more visible to us all. ie the issues faced by trans people are more in our faces now than they were twenty years ago.

I think Nadia won because of her personality and her story - and she lost her popularity in a series a few years later for the same reasons haha! I think that could still happen again just as easily now, the support is more than there in society for something like that to happen. There are a lot of tolerant, kind and understanding people who support trans people and their rights.


Also, and it may just be an age thing here that's the difference between our views, but I guess I have lived experience of what it's like to be LGBTQ+ back then too and I know that the community was nowhere near as accepted. In the late 90s / early 00s it was still common for gay people to be shouted at on the streets, for trans people it was even worse. I'm not saying at all that the media reactions etc these days aren't concerning or that it's bad for people to be worried about it - my main concern around it is whether or not younger people are being influenced by it or not. I'd rather hoped that the generations would continue to become more tolerant as each one passes, the incident around this killing does make me more fearful that actually that may not be the case - but again, it's difficult to know whether that's true and I really hope it is just a one off tragic happening.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 14th February 2023, 10:58 PM

That actually makes a lot of sense, and I really hope you are correct. The studies of public opinion seem to contradict this however with last year YouGov's UK poll suggesting: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights. Often the stories that lead the news agenda can manipulate public opinion, moreso social media since the 2010s, and all it is ever used for is political gain at the expense of persecuted minorities. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, though like Sophie Ellis-Bextor sang in the late 1990s.. 'A pessimist is never disappointed'. 😔

Posted by: Smint 14th February 2023, 11:13 PM

I think the level of targeted hate towards trans women (not so much trans men for various reasons, namely they're not seen as a threat) is off the scale compared with a decade or two ago. This tragic incident has caused an outpouring of grief and sympathy but the press will resume targeting trans women mercilessly before too long. Very few prominent people speak out especially politicians south of the border.

Posted by: J00prstar 14th February 2023, 11:14 PM

I would say from my own perspective it feels like acceptability of gay men and women, and rejection of trans people (and to an extent other queer identities that are perceived to challenge overall social norms more broadly) has come in hand in hand.

Suggesting that in some aspects it's not actually that society (macro) has changed to be largely more accepting; but that gay couples have been accepted so long as they broadly present or behave like straight couples and have become part of social fabric; while other queer people have taken on the psychological 'threat'/bogeyman space.

Funnily enough its only in the last circa 5 years I would say I have myself been on the receiving end of what feels like queerphobia FROM gay men.

Posted by: J00prstar 15th February 2023, 11:10 AM

UK reddit has now decided the solution to transphobic posters is to ban all discussion of any trans person on the site... real big brain moment there.

Posted by: dandy* 15th February 2023, 11:21 AM

I think that yougov poll isn't quite as bad as it may appear. There hasn't been a huge shift in anything other than the sport issue - which tbh I think even I am minded that it is potentially unfair to include trans women in sport, I'm definitely not for it so I would be undecided at best. The results continue to demonstrate that the younger generations are supportive and that the key factor is whether people know trans individuals or not - that to me shows the more trans people are represented and visible in society then the more we'll see a positive shift. We can't ignore that it is difficult for people to change their mindsets and habits - especially when it comes to things like changing rooms etc where it is ingrained in everyone since birth that they are male/female from a visual point of view and anything that challenges that concept is always likely to divide and push some people who are pretty neutral on the wider subject to question things... but even having some people influenced into negative views is better than what it was like before - where frankly it just wasn't socially acceptable at all. It is more difficult to comprehend that people can differ from the birth male/female split that we've all been conditioned to understand - it feels like a scientific fact that people are challenging and that's not the same as an attraction to a gender etc which is much more fluid in concept to begin with. I think it would be really helpful to have more of the science discussed in the media as in my opinion a lot of people simply don't understand that it really is scientifically possible for people to be born without being entirely male or female. Plus, as you say, it's had a really huge media push that allowing trans women into spaces traditionally thought of as being for cis women isn't okay and that has demonstrated a shift in the results for that question, but it's not had such a drastic effect as I may have feared it would - if I'm reading it right then it's had an effect on some of the people who hadn't really thought about it before, which is to be expected given those people probably don't care that much and would be easily influenced by sensationalist stories.

I think I'm maybe just the opposite to your last sentence haha, I like to try and see the positives in what is happening and I think we're essentially just going through the typical process to change - it never was going to go completely smoothly.

Posted by: Smint 15th February 2023, 06:27 PM

That doesn't surprise me from what I see and hear but really sorry to hear about the abuse you get from within the LGBT community. I know some cis men and women claim that sexuality and gender identity are completely separate and even though I disagree with that surely basic kindness and care should stop them from joining in with the transphobia.

Of course, those individuals are being self sabotaging as once you feed prejudice it gets bigger and hungrier and will start demonising the cis gay men and women.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 16th February 2023, 12:48 PM

J.K Rowling has now said she will "get off her pedestal" about trans views. We'll see. It seems she has realised that peddling rhetoric like that can cause harm to trans people.

Posted by: dandy* 16th February 2023, 01:03 PM

That’s interesting. I don’t think I was expecting anything from her so a retraction in her position is welcome

Posted by: dandy* 16th February 2023, 01:12 PM

Hmmm she hasn’t really retracted much from what I can find available to read, seems like she was saying that she was never uncomfortable talking about these things rather than any acknowledgment that she’s been harmful

Posted by: J00prstar 16th February 2023, 01:32 PM

Quite. Its what makes me so incredulous to see the likes of lesbians with short hair and no makeup on insisting that trans women shouldn't be allowed to use their toilets, women's shelters etc.

Who do you think will be NEXT if you ally yourself with conservatives for this?

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th February 2023, 03:51 AM

I thought about the last posts in this thread, about LGBT groups fighting it out when I saw this, the unfortunate, real-world consequences of a Twitter post blown up into a round of discussion over whether it's appropriate to use a common three-word hashtag for the murder of a teenager. And promoted by a bunch of Americans deciding they can speak for what people do over in Britain too.

Progressivism is one voice. It needs to be to have any chance of succeeding against conservatives. Gay people, lesbians, trans people, white people, non-white people, to promote humanity when a tragedy befalls one group doesn't detract from another group MY GOD.

Posted by: Iz 💀 17th February 2023, 03:58 AM

Though somewhat more positively it looks like the actual vigils were very well attended.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/queued-row-after-row-mourners-26250622

Posted by: Calvin Maxwell 17th February 2023, 04:21 PM

I do understand the sentiments of “Say Her Name” being more tied to the BLM movement and it possibly taking away a chance to amplify Black voices (especially on Black History Month which is kinda sus), but what makes this irritating is that Americans have a tendency to inject the darkness of American history onto other countries whenever something messed up happens. It’s giving colonizer lowkey 🙄

I do think it can be altered though just to keep everyone happy - say “Her Name Is Brianna” or something to that extent.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 17th February 2023, 04:30 PM

Exactly! People are way too meek and weak vs any counter discussion these days too, immediately backing down. We're all in it against the right ansld against violence. If we use the same phrase as others in this fight, that's fine. It does not detract from anything.

Posted by: J00prstar 17th February 2023, 06:24 PM

Honestly that is ridiculous. Americans (no offence to board users) seem to be utterly obsessed with going all or nothing in on things.

Something like 'say her name' is a generic statement. Besides, even if the root IN THIS CASE is of a crime against a black woman, shouldn't it be a good thing if that inspiration is being taken more widely because the sentiment is shared?

Did MLK and Malcolm X ever suggest that the concept of standing up for your rights and protesting should be limited to black people only? The entire point of movements like that is meant to be to inspire everybody to join you, no? Or as many as possible at least.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 17th February 2023, 07:03 PM

100%!

Posted by: Envoirment 17th February 2023, 09:41 PM

I would say using the phrase "Say Her Name" would be a good thing? Enhancing the meaning of the chant outside of the US to help create awareness of other injustices. Not to mention black trans women are some of the most marginalised group of people so connecting the phrase to trans women as well could make the statement even more powerful as a cross-issue chant?

I saw some interesting view points recently regarding trans rights. One of which, relating to the recent Harry Potter game and the bombardment of people online having issues with people streaming the game etc, was that you have to create apathy or a sense of "this won't affect me" in regards to those who are the majority and voting. A lot of people got accused of being transphobic or given a lot of hate for playing the Harry Potter game/streaming it due to J.K. Rowling's stance on trans women. This obviously left a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouths (particularly with Harry Potter being a beloved franchise) and just generated a lot of push back from what I could see.

It's a very fine line/balance in getting people to understand trans issues (particularly regarding trans women) and helping to progress them vs completely off putting those you are trying to get to support them or at the very least having them in a state of apathy whereby progressive laws etc can be passed without much resistance.

I have no lived experience of being trans or any trans friends etc, but from growing up the UK during the 90s/2000s, attitudes regarding gay men/women have come a long way. And in general a lot of slurs I used to regularly hear being used when growing up (not just for gay people but also for ethnic minorities/women etc) have faded out of use and I haven't heard most used in a long time - that's one thing I do like about the more PC culture we have nowadays. Although that could also be the fact that as an adult it's much easier to choose your circle of friends etc as opposed to having to put up with people in school etc. Although the more recent generations seem to be the most progressive yet so don't think that's necessarily the case!

Posted by: Silas 17th February 2023, 10:24 PM

So apparently Finland just passed self-Id laws without any of the absolute insanity that happened in the UK/Scotland. Scotland is generally a very tolerant nation and has a lot in common with the nordics.

So I wonder how much of the variation in reaction is down to the fact that Finnish is an absolute bitch to learn given that it’s mainly American neo fascist hyper Christian alt right movements that’s funding these culture wars (along with Russia who presumably are too busy focusing on anti-NATO rhetoric in Finland atm to stoke this particular fire)

Posted by: Iz 💀 18th February 2023, 04:04 AM

Arguably it's even better applied in this instances because both 'HER' and 'NAME' are relevant due to the misgendering Brianna received. An appropriate hashtag. But in all likelihood, it's even stupider than that, it was likely just people using those three words normally in their tweets rather than a hashtag because that's how twitter works.

And yeah of course, successful progressive movements didn't do this shit, start devolving into meaningless arguments over who's hurt more but half I've seen on Twitter now is new takes on discourse rather than solidarity.



The Hogwarts Legacy debacle is another great example. So many people in the wider left do not understand the ideas of coalition building, sticking together, or meeting people where they are. Some treat it all as a social competition to see who can be the most progressive and cast out anyone who does not meet their standards. Blasphemy, basically.

It's the easiest thing in the world to see that impugning people for playing ~popular game~ is not going to be very popular. I was talking with a friend last night who wants me to play it - good luck getting me to buy a game so close to release which is the real reason - and you know, I gave him the spiel about how JKR's awful as well after he asked specifically and fair, he's used to that, but I think if I'd said specifically I'm not playing the game because of that, which I'm not, it would have come off crazy. I'm surprised anyone tries it but EVERY TIME there is a piece of media that you could see is morally dodgy for whatever reason it's like for some their witch hunt sense is activated. It never works. Stop doing it. Let people come to their own conclusions.

If I, an enlightened centrist looking for a new political ideology had the choice between 'the left', who want me to walk on eggshells and stop having fun, or 'the right' who seemingly don't care, which one looks more attractive?

I am rambling but god the left or progressives or whichever big movement you like that will actually make things better for people just needs to learn how to recruit people and not put them off. It should be so easy! But instead every time big publicised discourse over whether it's morally okay to eat at the same table as meat-eaters or something happens and we look crazy.



Nice. Anglos always have seemed quite susceptible to foreign influence and most of our transphobia is coming through our media so it makes sense that a difference in media makes a difference. Finland also has an election in less than 2 months too with the right-wing rising in the polls, I think if that was our Labour in charge they'd have never had the balls.

Posted by: Dircadirca 18th February 2023, 05:36 AM

Too true! So often the rhetoric is so poorly considered that it feels like a PSYOP to tarnish the left's reputation. When you're looking out for the minority you can't draw such a stark line in the sand because at the end of the day, the 'them' is so much larger than the 'us'. Empathy comes from seeing oneself in another, not from belittling people in the odd expectation that it'll somehow make them agree with you in order to get their approval. Who here has ever gotten into a band or artist because they saw someone trashing someone you liked for being inferior to this better, more obscure artist?

Furthermore, even from a utilitarian stand point, boycotting wizard game or anything to the effect is honestly counter-intuitive. Most of us who don't like JKR already weren't going to play it even if she weren't what she is now, so it's impossible for me to take away a sale that never was going to exist*. On the other hand, the only time this sort of thing is effective is incidentally when it's targeting the work of marginalised folk who either slip up, are perceived to slip up, or associate with someone who did, since they're the ones with the proactive audience. From that it's hard to want to associate with anyone who's willing to toss you aside forever for the power trip of a witch hunt. Self-cannibalisation at its finest.

*That being said https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/donate for Mermaids UK for no reason in particular.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 18th February 2023, 02:41 PM

Agreed, Iz!!! The "woke brigade", as the right calls them, is HURTING the progressive cause, by being too aggressive in hounding people for engaging with things as innocuous as a Harry Potter game that J.K had no part in! Playing a popilar new game does NOT make someone problematic.

Posted by: p a v 18th February 2023, 04:40 PM

The amount of people being offended by their own communities who want justice and acknowledgment of every single member is quite staggering. It’s so counterproductive and just goes to show we need to get our shit together first before we are able to fight for our rights. That’s why we can never get a f***ing break.

Posted by: Smint 20th February 2023, 11:03 PM

Not sure whether to post this here or in the Scotland thread but out of the three SNP leadership candidates to replace Nicola Sturgeon no fewer than 2 of them (Kate Forbes and Ash Regan) are against the challenge of the Section 35 order (UK government blocking the approval of Scotland's Gender recognition reform bill). Only Humza Yousaf (who didn't actually vote for equal marriage in the end) has given full support to trans rights. He is the favourite to win although the LGBT community are fearful of the media honing on this single issue during the contest and stirring up anti trans sentiment. And they will - look at the way most politicians are asked the "What is a Woman" gotcha question when interviewed?

Although there was encouragement during the well attended vigils for Brianna Ghey over the UK for the trans community and allies (although the Brum one was gate crashed by some anti LGBT thugs) it's incredibly difficult times. ,Just today, the current most prominent trans campaigner in the media, India Willoughby received horrific death threats, hand delivered by a Far Right group. I don't know what the answer is really. It really has hit home today, how the progressive young have so little power or say in this country despite being a huge proportion amount of people I know.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 2nd March 2023, 09:34 AM

Ash Sarkar: "if the very word penis is that distressing for you, I'd recommend standing for a different ward - one not named Cockfosters"

Posted by: J00prstar 2nd March 2023, 06:25 PM

I made a second complaint to the BBC recently for another article that contained implicit transphobia by uncritically reporting JK Rowling's words with no context given.

I think that kind of thing is what annoys me the most about the current wave of media transphobia - the fact that those who are paid to inform the public and be an authoritative voice are neglecting to include all kinds of information while still claiming to be 'neutral' or impartial.

When JK Rowling - or any like her - makes a claim that 'X bill will have Y result' an article about that shouldn't just repeat it uncritically as if that were true - if it isn't!

That is no better than reporting on celebrities' claims from yesteryear that vaccines will cause autism or that all gay people are child molesters, without providing any context whatsoever that that is extremely unlikely to be the case.

You don't get to claim to be impartial if the article just doesn't outright support a certain view, it only strongly implies it is correct. Grrrr.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 5th March 2023, 05:32 PM

If you're frustrated, let me offer this honest opinion: progressives should not have alienated liberals (broadly speaking, people who put freedom first) in the first place. Now's not too late to mend the relationship. Only with the support of liberals can LGBT rights be protected.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 5th March 2023, 05:52 PM

WAT THR ACTUAL f*** NO!!!!

WROOOONG!!!

Neolibs PLAYING at politics are a joke. We need real leftists and progressives ro make change - and a LARGE part of that is economic and systemic - and not have the neolibs throw us a few bones now and then from their egregious eating piles.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 5th March 2023, 07:05 PM

Look, I'm sincere about wanting liberals and leftists to be able to work together, at least to some extent. Without this happening, we will all get destroyed by Ron DeSantis and others like him. There's a lot at stake here.

And liberal doesn't mean neoliberal. I'm not too keen on capitalism, to be honest. I just don't like postmodern critical theory.


In other words, I don't have a problem with Bernie Sanders. I have a problem with the ideas of Foucault.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 5th March 2023, 07:48 PM

So then why on earth would you support a centrist over Bernie Sanders?! Why?!

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 6th March 2023, 10:52 AM

Honestly it was because of Bernie's supporters. Bernie wasn't into postmodern theory but many of his supporters were, and I was a bit worried. Postmodern theory isn't compatible with free speech and freedom of conscience, and is therefore a dealbreaker for me. If the left would drop the postmodernism, I think us liberals (at least those not too keen on capitalism) would have a better relationship with the left.

Posted by: Iz 💀 6th March 2023, 11:20 AM

I don't think you know what postmodern theory is, or at least whatever you've been told it is not the reality.

The relationship between liberals and the left is somewhat fraught of course, but obviously things tend to go better when one of the groups is in charge.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 6th March 2023, 01:31 PM

Okay, this is all starting ro sound a bit Glass Onion-y. Why are you repeating "postmodern theory", but giving no suggestion of why it is even RELEVANT? I assume you just did a lecture on Foucalt in uni? And puhhlease. That old "Bernie supporters" thing was rubbish spouted by MNBC journalists in an effort to diacredit his grassroots movement. Next!

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 6th March 2023, 07:20 PM

I'n still just AGOG at the brainless attempts at using postmodernism to attack leftism. This might be the dumbest rhing I've seen online all year - and I bet by December, this will STILL be top tier dumbf***ery! In the ssme post, she goes on to show how she swallowed MNSBC propaganda r.e his grassroots movement hook, line and stinker as well I CANNOT!

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 6th March 2023, 07:23 PM

How DARE the Bernie bros challenge neolibs online and want free healthcare for all What SCOUNDRELS!

Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th March 2023, 08:36 PM

I thought that liberals were, because of the name containing the actual word, socially liberal.

I agree that we need to put aside differences of opinion on many other issues to condemn the attacks on trans rights, but I fail to see how progressives have alienated liberals. It is the inaction and lack of a policy agenda on all of the issues that face our society from liberals that cause a lot of the anger and frustration that gets callously routed towards the most vulnerable minorities and feeds the culture wars that liberals baulk at.

Starmer's inaction is what is giving us the frankly disgusting Tory policy on immigration atm, as they look to distance themselves and put clear water between the two parties to pick up a few extra votes. They don't care that it mobilises and emboldens the far-right.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th March 2023, 09:39 AM

Let's not start a fight over liberals vs leftists. My point was that leftists should not see liberals as the enemy, and liberals should not see leftists as the enemy, because we have a real enemy in the authoritarian culture warrior Right. For example, while I criticize postmodern theory, I don't see leftists as the enemy. I accept that leftists will criticize the liberal worldview too, but please don't see us as the enemy.

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 7th March 2023, 01:09 PM

I'll bite. What is postmodern theory to YOU

Posted by: Smint 7th March 2023, 11:16 PM

There's a lot of terms used in this thread which I'm not 100% sure what is meant, especially as some comments refer to the USA which is different to the UK (they have a very pro LGBT President for starters although life is horrific in the red states) In the UK, it's obvious that progressive people who look after minorities do not have the raw numbers and more importantly the power (in terms of money, media outreach - trans or trans friendly voices are hardly ever in the media and in terms of getting their votes to count, they build up extra votes in big cities, university towns but that leads loads of 'red wall' towns with socially conservative views). If by liberals we mean centrists, it's pretty clear that they are not going to go out on a limb for trans people (Starmer has made that adamant) and some are down right hostile. Anyhow even if people did care, hardly anyone protests in the UK anyway (and if they try now they'll end up in jail). Scotland and Sturgeon was the shining outlier but that's all gone now.

Again I don't know what the answer is. I read India Willougby (who ironically was fairly right leaning a few years back, she was originally on GB News) tweets and often regularly tweets stuff like this Now is the toughest time in history to be trans. They are trying to make life SOOO uncomfortable for us that we stay in the closet. They genuinely want to legislate trans people out of existence. And yes, it is scary. Sending ❤️ to your daughter xxx

What with Rishi Sunak's ghastly 'Send back the boats' lectern, it's fascism happening in real time whilst the rich get even richer.

Posted by: J00prstar 8th March 2023, 12:09 AM

Since it hasn't been raised in the thread yet and is relevant and you might not be aware of it...

The phrasing used in a lot of the proposed anti-drag bills in the US (and parroted in anti-drag protests now coming here to the UK) goes beyond drag.
It is actually phrased as 'wearing clothing or having the appearance of not your birth sex'.

Essentially it is establishing a purity test for clothes.
It will be used against trans men and trans women, queer people, and anyone who is gender nonconforming. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. The people that support this believe in a vision of a world where women are bound into dresses, and being housewives and mothers. It's a fiction of a world that never existed except for the very wealthy, a fantasy.

This is what we are up against and why it sickens me to see lesbians and so called 'feminists' (TERFs) chomping at the bit to 'protect the children'. Ma'am, you wearing jeans with a cropped haircut, you are also in their sights. Protect yourself!

Posted by: Amanda Hugginkis 8th March 2023, 12:26 AM

Soo they are coming for our liberty to dress how we see fit now?! My god, this moral panic is INSANE!

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 8th March 2023, 03:33 PM

Basically,
liberal = freedom comes first, pro-science, pro-objectivity
postmodern = everything is about power, speech/discourse/knowledge is power relations, science/medicine skeptical (because of the power thing), also skeptical of objectivity (again due to the obsession with power)

Sometimes, you just have to take a 'what you see is what you get' attitude to life, and stop thinking that power and oppression are hidden everywhere. Science and medicine, in particular, are not out to oppress anyone. There is no such thing as Biopower (as Foucault described). The very idea is an attack on science and medicine. It sounds similar to anti-vax theories to me.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 8th March 2023, 03:43 PM

My take is, the next few years are crucial, but the 'progressive left' won't have the numbers to block bad things from happening. The liberals and centrists are the swing vote here, and winning them over is crucial.

In the US, Biden is pro-LGBT, so as long as he wins in 24, nothing bad will happen federally. The red states are probably beyond saving at this point, and trans people might have to flee. By 28, hopefully the moral panic will have subsided, or at least the Republicans will have stopped nominating people like Trump and DeSantis. If not, then we just have to continue to fight.

In the UK, the conservatives probably won't have enough time and capital to do anything bad before the election. As long as Starmer wins, nothing bad will happen for 5 years. However, it could be a stalemate for a while. The moral panic should die down within Starmer's 1st term. This means there might be room for trans rights reforms to begin again in Starmer's 2nd term in the early 2030s (most governments get a second term).

In Canada, trans rights guarantees are pretty strong, so less worry there. However, the conservatives might win the next election, so a little bit of worry there. Similar situation in NZ.

In Australia, the topic seems to not be part of the general political consciousness yet. Therefore the future is uncertain. But the current PM is generally pro-LGBT.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 8th March 2023, 03:52 PM

By the way, is India Willoughby right-wing? From what I see, I don't think so. I think Caitlyn Jenner is a Republican and she is the only prominent example of a right-wing trans person I know of. Are there any others (besides YouTubers that 99% of the general public don't know anyway)?

Posted by: Iz 💀 9th March 2023, 01:44 AM

This is a false equivalence. Postmodernism is an academic theory of discussion. It, like other academic theories, are worth exploring, not everything it explains bears out but it makes good explanations for why things work the way they do. Challenging liberalism as a dominant theory is important to see if there are better ways to organise our society.

It's worth saying I don't tend to agree the postmodern rejection of objectivity much (and it's a nightmare to derive true meaning out of) but it's something to consider when approaching topics of oppression and who holds power where. It's certainly not something to get wrapped up in conspiracy theories that it's why every leftist hates liberals. Because that makes you look like every fool who fell for the 'critical race theory, a degree-level academic theory to apply critical thinking to race issues, is being taught in kindergarten as a way to get kids to hate white people' ploy, or any other sort of 'cultural Marxism' dogwhistle. Academic theories are analysis tools, not political ideologies.

For a pertinent example that goes with this thread, applying postmodern theory to trans people is actually pretty damn relevant because it allows for an easy rejection of 'traditional culture', that trans people are valid according to their own identity. So if transphobes get a hold of postmodernism, which does sound like the sort of scary academic theory to unjustifiably put a scapegoat on, they can (and do) blame it and trans people as part of the 'rejection of truth'. But I would counter that, on a postmodern bent, with 'does 'your truth' have any validity to it? If so, substantiate it with the claims of the world around you and you get institutionalised transphobia and rejection that validates the argument that it isn't trans people who have power'. And then any claims about a 'trans lobby' are meaningless.



I do question the validity of "nothing bad will happen" as long as the centrists-masquerading-as-leftists win because that hasn't played out historically. Of course it's the preferable option but that's an optimistic way of looking at it.

Though actually the main line of difference between the USA and the UK is that centrist Dems are actually pretty strong and stalwart on defending trans rights and it's quite okay for them to mainstream trans people's validity. Where as the Labour Party's centrists are abject cowards in thrall to our monstrous press on the subject.

Conversely, the Republicans are making far more genocidal noises than the Tories. But that doesn't mean the Tories won't quietly roll back trans rights and Labour after them if they're pressured enough.

Posted by: Iz 💀 9th March 2023, 01:50 AM

I don't even think postmodernism is a particularly leftist theory, actually! It's about seeing the world in new ways that don't have to jive with objective reality but leftism already has the advantage when you apply reality to the picture!

Posted by: Liаm 9th March 2023, 12:24 PM

Initially she did seem to get booked on TV in a Caitlin Jenner type way, so that shows could say they consulted a trans person but she would be one who would adhere to their thoughts against trans people more than say Paris Lees might. She did also compare drag to blackface before around the time she was on Big Brother but in the past 5 years since she has definitely gone the other way and seems far more left wing. She has spoken up a lot around JK Rowling and the general transphobia swathe we’ve seen of late, so I think she has probably learned from being in the public eye as a trans person and come to the right conclusions.

Posted by: Smint 9th March 2023, 12:28 PM

Just looked at India's Wiki entry. It used to say that she described her views as 'right of centre' but that is removed. She definitely takes left wing views.

Incidentally, looking at the edit history for her is painful as extremely often she is dead named which has to be corrected.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 9th March 2023, 03:02 PM

I actually have to disagree that postmodernism has been helpful for trans people. The case for trans acceptance can rest on medical science alone. Postmodernism has only served to confuse things and allow the right wing to trivialize trans issues and paint trans identity as unscientific.

Trans people were doing fine before people started arguing whether gender is a social construct (which is not necessarily relevant to trans people).

More generally speaking, postmodernism is bad for social justice and good for right wing propaganda against necessary reforms.

The fact is, you have to look at what's effective at changing things in real life, and old school liberalism still has the best track record. It was an old school liberal coalition that got marriage equality done, for example. Postmodernism would have made a mess of it.

As a supporter of social justice and reformism, I feel like postmodern theories have often stood in our way, and provided ammunition for the right.

Posted by: Iz 💀 9th March 2023, 03:57 PM

Yeah I wasn't saying it was helpful overall, I was offering an ad hoc justification through a postmodern lens. Which has been done in a far more skilled way by sexologists, gender theorists etc. In fact I don't agree with keeping trans people squared within medical science (even though their position there is of great help for their own validity), because trans people are not defined purely medically, they are defined socially as well. Through their gender. That's the relevance.

But you're still confusing academia and philosophy, postmodernism, even liberalism, with political advocacy (though liberalism is understandable as it is both an academic theory and an ideology, postmodernism, crucially, is NOT the latter and continuing to reference it as such makes me think you are using it as a perjorative for leftism which is just inaccurate). It's true that taking theories from an academic classroom and putting them up in a political space isn't always a great strategy. What's not true is that theories are what drives any of political policy, voting, or any sort of ideology in a political sense. Postmodernism has had a minute effect on transphobia's proliferation. It's not the main conservative line of attack by any stretch, nor would it matter if it was, they would find something else.

You cannot dismiss ideas because the right will attack them, that's nonsense that will always lead towards conceding territory to the right. The worst people in politics always fight for what they believe in and get it too, and they convinced their most abundant opponents, liberals, that fighting for what you believe in is bad because it'll make them worse or something.

I mean though, forgive me if the Cameron-Clegg coalition isn't exactly my favourite example of liberalism (understatement of the century). Marriage equality is one of those things that would have happened anyway and the timing is slightly unfortunate such that a bad government can claim credit for it. Any equivalent for trans people from British liberals seems unlikely at best. JKR was a massive Blairite back in the day, I doubt she is now, but TERFs are quite prominent among our centrists and liberals too.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 9th March 2023, 08:20 PM

I don't use 'postmodern' to attack the left like right-wing people do. I differentiate between postmodern leftists and economic (class focused) leftists, for example. I tend to call the former postmodernists and the latter socialists. In the context of the 21st century West, socialists generally aren't involved in cancel culture, but postmodernists are, for example.

I don't dismiss ideas because the right will attack them. Postmodernism is uniquely bad because its anti-science and anti-objectivity (which are bad things anyway) makes it an easy target for the right. Therefore if advocacy for a minority group is sometimes wrapped in postmodernist rhetoric, it is essentially an own goal.

The marriage equality example wasn't specifically meant to refer to the UK. The movement was also led by liberals in America, Canada and Australia. Indeed, the far left almost put it in danger towards the end in Australia (which didn't get it done until late 2017).

As for why there are so many TERFs across the political spectrum in Britain, I don't know. It doesn't appear to be that way in America, Canada or Australia. Keep in mind that most Blairites didn't turn out like JKR, though. And many Corbynites are really transphobic too, meaning it's not a left vs centrist thing. Perhaps it means that trans rights must be achieved through a broad coalition across the political spectrum in the UK (rather than relying on one party as in the US). This means the British trans rights movement actually has to be more moderate than their American counterparts in practice, as a result. A change of tactics is certainly needed for trans rights in the British context, given the recent failures.

Posted by: Iz 💀 10th March 2023, 04:36 AM

A better and more accurate term would just be social progressivism. There's no need to inaccurately bring in a tangentially related academic theory.

It's always important to look at postmodernism and other academic theories for its utility as an explanatory tool, NOT make judgements on it based on the values you think it espouses. That's not why it exists. It exists as a reaction to modernism, and it's entirely fair and proper for it to do so. Because if things cannot be questioned, they don't hold value as axioms. Though as I said before and agreed with you on, it isn't great political advocacy a lot of the time. Doesn't mean it has no value in other contexts in furthering our understanding of sex and gender.



Fair, the coalition reference made me tend towards UK. But none of these countries have distinct left movements outside of liberalism, I'd say it's more accurate that the centre or centre-left party in power there caused it to happen... in the UK it was centre-right - with liberals involved in all cases, but progressives involved in all cases too. In many cases here those aren't that distinct.



The reason Britain has so many TERFs is the media latching on to it as a scare story and building from there, it was not like this 20 years ago. Nor will it be a vote winner, thank god, most studies show it's almost exclusively a media bubble issue (unlike in the USA where the Republicans have mainstreamed trans fear). But now almost exclusively, the further right you go, the more you find these dogwhistles on women's rights - see Rosie Duffield's question to Sunak in PMQs this week for an example. The SNP has TERFs, the Labour centre has TERFs (or are cowards who refuse to support), the Tories had a whole leadership contest competing to see who could be the most transphobic.

that line that 'Corbynites are transphobic' is really confusing, I don't think I've ever seen someone on the Labour left be transphobic, that's normally the one bastion of trans rights advocacy left in our political spectrum and in fact when Corbyn was leader I remember a lot of people saying that Labour was TOO concerned about trans rights, apparently not foreseeing our media's machinations.

Posted by: blacksquare 10th March 2023, 09:59 AM

The reactions I have seen to this... disturbing.

Posted by: Iz 💀 10th March 2023, 11:00 AM

Surely the more pertinent sadness of that speech is how long it is and how empty the chamber is. But no, a trans girl was included in the list so now Phillips isn't doing a good thing. I cannot stand the hatred and lack of compassion of these people.

Posted by: Smint 10th March 2023, 08:41 PM

The transphobes pretend to care about women but don't speak out against the woeful conviction rates for sexual assaults on women.
They pretend to care about children but they don't care about changing the law when gunmen shoot down children in schools (US) or more generally cut school budgets to the bone
They pretend to care about lesbian and gay people - although most of them were pro Section 28 and anti gay marriage at the time
They pretend to care about free speech but they are protected by a vicious well-funded media who amplify transphobe voices and silence actual trans voices. Any people who tries to challenge gets death threats and their past raked over for skeletons.
I call these people one word - evil.

Posted by: blacksquare 1st April 2023, 08:17 PM

Bleak.

I don’t really know what to say anymore. There is no future to look forward to in the UK right now. Bigots and liars everywhere.

Posted by: Iz 💀 2nd April 2023, 04:52 AM

Some key bits from that article (source:reddit, screw newspaper paywalls):

he ain't been captured by 'a vocal minority' (nice dogwhistle) on anything, that man is focus group given life.



Even f***ing Blair's government got rid of Section 28 at a time when https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-attitudes-section-28. I thought Starmer wasn't a populist.



Horrendous, evil framing of the issue by the newspaper, as if Duffield is a squeaky-clean fighting-for-women feminist who somehow isn't on a burning crusade of hate:



Headline's a bit sensational but that's all the Times can ever do, stir up outrage with headlines because of their paywall.

Observer line on the same interview is 'Turning trans issues into a ‘toxic divide’ doesn’t help, says Keir Starmer' which isn't great, but just comes across as annoying spineless centrist fare.

so basically, score one for Britain's evil media, Starmer still deserves to be on the hook for being taken where the wind blows and also tacitly indicating that he won't help trans people in government because the right-wing rags will shout him down about it.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 2nd April 2023, 05:33 PM

I'm still not convinced that Starmer isn't pro-trans (or that Corbyn or anyone else would be any better). The problem here is this is a Times interview, and the Times is a transphobic paper.

Posted by: T Boy 2nd April 2023, 06:44 PM

I honestly couldn’t tell you Starmer’s actual stance on Transgender people but he sure is dogwhistling for all the transphobes and this isn’t just based on that article. And if he is pro trans, that makes everything he’s doing or saying even worse.

Posted by: Silas 3rd April 2023, 06:13 AM

Hes so full of shit. The Scottish changes enjoyed majority support from the public and from the parliament. The only thing that’s eroded public support is literally every media outlet in the UK turning both barrels on trans folks with hideous non-stop rancid bullying. This wasn’t a problem until the media made it one to sell papers

Posted by: Doctor Blind 5th April 2023, 01:10 PM

I can't say I'm disappointed. To do so would suggest that I believe Stamer had any morals or prinicipals that he wouldn't be willing to drop, oh maybe except https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1641334570350964736. Great leaders are able to shape public opinion and change their minds through convincing arguments against even unpopular opinions, weak leaders collapse at the first sign of political difficulty and bend to pressure deliberately used by the elite and the media to distract from the many political failings and huge issues that face our society. I'll likely still end up voting for them because of the way our voting system is structured, but it won't be with any enthusiasm, or hope, or any feeling in particular really apart from deep sadness about where things are going.

That makes it even worse, surely? To deliberately adopt a position, signal for and campaign against something that you actually support, in order to win political support and makes things easier for yourself. I can think of a few words to describe someone like that, I'll be polite.. most of them would be starred out here.

Posted by: blacksquare 5th April 2023, 01:20 PM

Tragic.

Posted by: J00prstar 5th April 2023, 01:59 PM

Ironically establishing a purity test for being feminine-looking enough to use women's spaces is only going to hurt women in the long run.

I can barely think of anything more anti feminist. I hope Germaine Greer and JK Rowling are happy...

Posted by: J00prstar 5th April 2023, 02:04 PM

Besides that I am honestly furious at what I do perceive as government & media collusion to suppress public knowledge of what rights trans folk already have by law in this country & have had for decades. (E.g. that before being allowed hormones or surgeries they have to start presenting as the new gender and use those facilities... meaning that people 'suddenly' outraged now have likely already shared facilities & didn't realise...)

The push to seed the narrative that trans people are new & that the British public oppose them is completely astroturfed and is picking up momentum simply by the daily repetition that "its what everyone thinks". We used to make fun of crazy American traditionalists for this kind of thing.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 5th April 2023, 02:55 PM

This is making me so angry, why can't they just let people be happy?



So, are they suggesting that trans men should be able to participate in women's sports? Galaxy brain stuff here.

Posted by: Smint 5th April 2023, 07:11 PM

They aren't happy inside- they see everything as a competition and always have to put people down rather than acknowledge their own issues.

Re: bathroom bills. Some trans men are very masculine so are they supposed to use women's toilets? Ludicrous

Posted by: J00prstar 6th April 2023, 06:11 PM

Interesting (if depressing) thread here:

It seems, incredibly, that people proposing these laws actually haven't thought through the logical ramifications on the 300k trans people in the country of what will ACTUALLY happen to those peoples' rights if they do go through. Just like with so many other things members of the government are acting as if they think they're playing an RPG about hypothetical situations.

Posted by: spiceboy 6th April 2023, 07:57 PM

Honestly I am so down about it all, why the f*** are we as a human race utterly despicable. Our entire histories are littered with attempting (and often succeeding) to hurt people.

They make me sick!

Posted by: Smint 6th April 2023, 10:13 PM

Anyway just signed this Government petition so they don't remove the rights of trans people from the Equality Act.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/627984?fbclid=IwAR0jMmrGz6S5F9Y0CICfeacdJg82hjPSjFIjBe9r6dM1plJHbkqEsguuURw

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th April 2023, 12:21 PM

As someone who actually fought for marriage equality (in the US and Australia it was a very hard fight unlike in the UK), and now wants to advance trans rights, my concern is the activists are doing it very wrong at the moment. The trans rights narrative looks nothing like the gay marriage narrative did, and I'm concerned that it is harming the cause. We have a proven successful model (almost every Western country has gay marriage now) but we are not following it.

If Keir Starmer is right about something, it's that trans rights needs a reset. The whole movement probably needs to be rebuilt, from the ground up. The leadership probably needs to be completely changed too.

I'm increasingly convinced that things went very wrong ever since the so-called trans tipping point (2014). Whoever is actually pro-trans, but said no to the current model back in 2015-18 or so (and there are many trans people in this category actually), should be given a chance to lead the movement out of its current wilderness. I think it would be best if the new leadership was solely made up of people who were already involved in trans issues in some way before 2013, to get rid of the recent baggage.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th April 2023, 12:45 PM

No, absolutely not. It's not the fault of any activists, it's the fault of media deciding that now's the time to use them as a laser focus to distract from people's economic issues, while column space is taken up by 'what is a woman' it's not shining a light on the failures of capitalism.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th April 2023, 12:56 PM

How long have you been following this issue, and how closely?

(Also, while I respect your socialist politics, please don't lump this issue in with capitalism. It has nothing to do with capitalism, and this distraction is not needed.)

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th April 2023, 01:40 PM

Capitalism is always relevant.

It is all conservative pundits and politicians can talk about, to the exclusion of all else, because that's the ideological bankruptcy of conservatism, no solutions for people, just endless reactionary politics of new groups to attack, I've seen enough normal men just get casually consumed with the idea that the 'alphabet people' have gone crazy. That stems from somewhere. Conservative thought leaders desperate to find scapegoats for the inequality they create.

I have been following it for long enough to be aware of trans history and how they were treated decades ago, as well as personally following increased acceptance in the 2010s that started to increase the numbers of trans people. I hope you're not presuming to tell me what I can speak on. This isn't something I'm new at. And the attention economy is a very important point to make on this issue when it takes up so many column inches yet continues to rank at the bottom of issues people are concerned about.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th April 2023, 01:46 PM

Basically these are the problems with trans activism as it currently exists:

1) too much philosophy, too little practical reality (and this is an issue with what I call the 'theory left' in general too)

2) too much cancel culture, too little negotiation

3) too little focus on actually educating people about trans issues

4) failure to represent the whole spectrum of views within the trans community

5) too much weird jargon, too few attempts to find common ground with regular people

6) too often represented by radicals who are trying to sell something more unpopular alongside trans rights

This might sound harsh, but change is certainly needed.

(Just imagine if Labour or the Democrats lost an election, and this was the post-election review)

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th April 2023, 01:52 PM

Don't believe the 'progressive' media hype. Things have only gone downhill for trans people since ten years ago.

Posted by: blacksquare 7th April 2023, 03:38 PM

It's nonsense rather than it is harsh. Such a small community are not at fault.

Trans people are a great distraction from current failures and no 'radical leadership rebuilding' will change that — whatever that means. Trans people and their allies could be doing everything right and it wouldn't matter. Iz is absolutely correct.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th April 2023, 03:46 PM

So what if a trans person was cringe somewhere? They're being attacked for their right to exist. None of these supposed problems with trans activism have any evidence backing them up. any evidence that they exist at scale among trans people as opposed to their opposites (I've seen just as much negotiation, education, populism etc from trans people if not more than these claims), whereas there is reams and reams of evidence of conservatives frothing at the mouth that people aren't living as their birth gender. Why on earth is your solution to blame the victims?

Any 'change' to become more docile, which to be QUITE FAIR they already are because the media has effectively already forced them to be so, is just telling them to shut up and accept their lot. Anyway this whole comment stinks of JKR making up 'trans activists' out of thin air to paternalistically make a point about the 'failures of progressivism' on a few individuals. Activists aren't the centre of this story, the transphobes are, and they're making it the trans community's problem.

(similarly if a left-wing political project loses an election the correct post mortem is not 'blame Becky the feminist who yelled in a Nazi's face a few times', that's literally what conservatives (friends with the Nazi) say the problem is. Why would you ever listen to those people?)



I would think that based on representation, constant anecdotal stories and more coming out and acceptance, that this is actually far from being the case. More people know a trans person now - and that's the sort of visibility that breeds long-term acceptance.

Posted by: Iz 💀 7th April 2023, 03:52 PM

It's astonishing how much these critiques show up for every branch of progressivism, yet no conservative, transphobe or racist is ever hit with the same sort of step-by-step plan to get the public onside with them again.

But yeah, exactly, I don't know how the needle could ever be moved by a few trans people at this point. It has to reach a broader crowd, but that won't happen by trans people being model citizens, more likely people think the conservatives talk about it too much - already there are signs in polls that this is the case, where it will actually start harming the electoral chances of conservatives.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 7th April 2023, 04:07 PM

Perhaps look at Australia, where anti-trans forces have developed a bad reputation since April last year, when they forced the trans issue into an election where it had no relevance. Letting the transphobes destroy themselves could be a good strategy indeed.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 7th April 2023, 04:37 PM

Sitting back and doing nothing is not gonna do anything though when the UK media are determined to use it to fuel the culture wars, and these newspapers are in high circulation and people can be very easily influenced, and even less so when their protection on the Equality Act is at stake. It's fortunate that the majority of polls published show the UK public generally doesn't see this as an issue, but that won't stop politicians and tabloids from using it as a distraction to the economic turmoil they've put us in. Look at what happened recently to the Youtuber, SophieFromMars after an encounter with a Tory councilor and the ensuing disgusting Daily Mail article that followed, as a case in point as to who is actually fanning the flames here.

I agree with Iz that I don't think it's all negativity that's happened to trans people in the last ten years either, visibility and awareness of gender dysphoria is much higher, a lot of high profile names using gender-neutral pronouns have increased awareness and from my experience, so many younger students are confident to come out and explore their gender certainly more so than when I was their age. Indeed, I think it's because of these positives that the bigots up top are trying to whip up a moral panic.

Posted by: J00prstar 7th April 2023, 05:44 PM

I don't totally disagree with Tara. Trans rights becoming a left vs right issue is unhelpful.

However, it's the Tories who have drawn that battle-line in order to try and dip into the hard right vote. They essentially are starting from the point that you can't be certain minorities & vote for them because they will do you in. Not unlike the tale of the frog & scorpion crossing the river.

While I think pragmatism should rule the day (which Labour have thankfully FINALLY cottoned on to with attack ads on the Tories), the difference here with the UK is that the current government isn't seeking to maintain cis rights and not advance trans rights; it seeks to roll back existing trans rights. As such, trans people are angry and scared, and as such unable to not go all in or meet halfway. This is war, ideologically.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 7th April 2023, 07:12 PM

There are well documented studies which show that once you get to https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/how-behavior-spreads/201905/the-25-percent-tipping-point-social-change then there is a kind of ‘tipping point’ where it becomes the established view and the remainder of the population just falls into line - we have seen this with equal marriage where even those who were previously against it today claim that they were always in support of it.

So the point I'd make here is that you do not need to convince the bigots or the transphobes, merely win support of the broader more empathetic part of the population, and you do that, not by collapsing to media/political pressure, but by challenging the dangerous rhetoric (see: Brianna Ghey) from the right that seeks to use fear and anger, taking extreme fringe cases, whipping up emotions, smearing and ultimately trying to erase a significant minority within our society. They should absolutely be called out for it, they are using it to build political power - we know from Lee '30p' Anderson that they will be using culture wars and trans debate to fight the next election, and to conflate that with the ongoing (and sometimes quite justified) concerns about the counterproductive actions of cancel culture is not right IMO.

It's pretty obvious that GBeebies and the right-wing billionaire owned press are using the same attack lines that are being used in America, which is presumably having trouble cutting through when the 'moral crisis' of drag in front of children meets the immovable fact that pantomimes are a British Christmas tradition. I hate the way that in the same way that so-called 'Pro-Life' campaigners who obsess over the rights of a yet-to-be-born foetus couldn't actually care less about the horrific abuse that some children face, so-called feminists are OBSESSING over this whilst ignoring the fact that the Met Police have been found to be institutionally sexist or than 1 in 4 women experience physical, sexual, emotional, and psychological domestic abuse.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 8th April 2023, 08:10 AM

Gay marriage was at 25% around 2000. Trans rights are certainly past 25% now. The theory is obviously wrong for politics. In fact, the magic number for politics seems to be 60%, rather than the 51% normally assumed, because of the inertia for change. Gay marriage only started to pass in many countries when the general level of support was around 60% in the West (which was around the mid 2010s).

The goal therefore is to get trans rights to 60%. Which tells us what kind of people need to be convinced, i.e. moderate conservatives. It won't be easy, and it will require a massive change in strategy.

We're certainly far from 60% on trans rights. So it's time to work hard to change people's minds. We can't afford to just preach to the converted.

Posted by: Smint 8th April 2023, 08:46 AM

Polling suggests that even in the much more right wing USA, people are generally anti the flurry of anti LGBT bills in Red states although there are some concerns.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/08/republican-trans-poll/

That said their president is broadly speaking pro trans rights whereas the Republicans are completely anti. In UK Starmer has joined the Tories in broadly being against trans rights which is deeply worrying as some people will think 'Even Starmer doesn't support them' - ie moving the Overton window on this particular issue to the right.

Posted by: blacksquare 8th April 2023, 09:03 AM

Ah, yes, trans people themselves are notorious for their inclusion in mainstream media. It’s almost as if 95% of the time their rights to exist are being discussed without them. They’re purposefully left to ‘preach to the converted’ during these discussions because the alternative would reveal the hypocrisy and deeply flawed arguments against them. Again, this is not on trans people and their poor strategising skills.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 12th April 2023, 05:44 PM

You have made a lot of criticisms but not offered many solutions apart from 'oh well, just sit back and watch the transphobes destroy themselves' - what we need is more voices making the case for the protection and strengthening of trans rights and more representation from the trans community being given a platform to educate the wider public. The attacks from the right and the Tories need to be called out.

Where have you got the 60% figure from? I've linked to the study which suggests it is around 25%. Even when you have a wider consensus in society there is always a minority who remain unconvinced no matter what.

It strikes me as wild that as long ago as 2004 we had the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004 pass without fanfare or any fuss - the same year that a trans woman won Big Brother in the UK with over 70% of the general public vote.

The far-right have been targeting trans rights for some time now, and the Conservative party (thanks to Kemi Badenoch mostly but also backed by the billionaire owned press) are leaning heavily in to this transphobic rhetoric as a way of distracting from the many failures of the last 13 years of Government because they are losing the argument and to cover for the fact that they have NO answers and nothing to offer as to how to improve the lives of people in this country. Starmer is so weak that he can't even stand up for his beliefs and instead collapses into the framing that the media and Government set out, and it depresses me personally.

Posted by: Silas 12th April 2023, 07:46 PM

Reading your last para there, reminds me of a piece I read on the BBC earlier from a journalist from the area about the rise of Homophobia in politics in Eastern African countries and how there was a pattern of this rhetoric rising to the top where the government could arguably have been deemed to have failed. And it is I think quite an interesting parallel. They did it to Europeans and the EU during the Osbourne triple dip recession and economic apocalypse that was the Austerity years, that lead to Brexit and now to distract from the catastrophe that is Brexit they need a new target to hide their failures behind

Posted by: Smint 12th April 2023, 09:38 PM

Indeed, these culture wars (where trans people and refugees will be top of the Tories' hitlist) are to distract from a complete absence of a positive message about the failure of capitalism here. Also, though they are a product of capitalism - social media companies have long amplified division by highlighting certain posts to users designed for outrage and clicks.

I'm not a big Twitter user myself but in the last week, apparently there has been a dramatic escalation in the visibility of anti trans content especially in the 'For You' feed. What with other sites promoting right wing content (because their backers have the largest purses) then what hope is there for any kind of fairness and equality for minorities? Yes many can see through the lies of the media and are getting better at it but so feels like swimming against the tide.

Posted by: J00prstar 12th April 2023, 11:29 PM

I saw today that rightwingers are disputing the amount of trans people in the census, claiming that the only way there could be so many is from 'people misunderstanding the question'.

Honest to god you couldn't make it up. This from the same people talking about how trans people are such an all encompassing threatening tidal wave of people too!

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 15th April 2023, 06:00 AM

Twitter really feels more biased towards the right overall these days. I guess the problem is that too many left and center people quit when Elon Musk took over. I think that was a mistake.

Posted by: Smint 15th April 2023, 01:47 PM

Yes a lot of left leaning figures I look at have noticeably stopped posting in past few days on Twitter. Moving to Substack?

Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th April 2023, 05:52 PM

Really heartened by what Caroline Nokes said on LBC this week - a shame that some of her colleagues (*cough* Penny Mordaunt *cough*) have the same views but don't dare air them - or worse - deliberately tack against them - because of the fear that being true to their actual opinion and feelings will crash their career. I will also admit that I've said some awful things about Kirstie Allsopp in the past (mainly because of her tacit support of the housing crisis that has completely priced out my generation from ever being able to own a home) but it's great to see her post this today:





This all stems from the attacks by the right against the WI, apparently because of a petition which was protesting against allowing transwomen to join the WI (the HORROR) - despite the fact that they've had this policy in force since the 1970s and formalised it in 2015. Just like every moral panic instigated by the right on this issue, it has been completely manufactured but it looks like this time it may have backfired and actually created a larger coalition against them.

Posted by: J00prstar 20th April 2023, 05:59 PM

I didn't expect to have such support for Kirstie Allsop tbh!

Posted by: J00prstar 20th April 2023, 06:03 PM

Any excuse to share the latest Contrapoints excellently tearing apart the fact that this whole trans panic is literally a moral panic that is being spearheaded by uncritically platforming and legitimising people who falsely claim to 'just have concerns' and to 'just want to talk' about things that are already legally granted to trans people.



It's long but I would recommend at least the first two 'chapters' of the video for consideration: firstly the story of an anti-gay bigot in the 1970s and how she protested about gay people having any rights and how we view that as bonkers today; and secondly how that person's story could be framed sympathetically as 'one woman's struggle' - and how that framing is exactly how the likes of JK Rowling are being framed now by the mainstream media. One woman who has 'legitimate concerns' when she is anything but.

Posted by: tommie 22nd April 2023, 04:51 AM

Maybe those horrible "transphobes" had a point about it being a bad idea to give puberty blockers to mostly autistic children?

Hey, maybe...

Posted by: Iz 💀 22nd April 2023, 05:32 AM

No, they're still horrible transphobes.

Reading that study, the only thing it really says (ignoring the editorialised tweet, it is from one of the authors but the study itself makes no such recommendation), emphasising it over and over again, is that because of the really low number of studies, making any concrete statements about its effects is not recommended and more long-term research should be done. Which crucially does not mean taking it off the table because the minimal evidence we do have suggests side effects are minor, the positive effects are welcomed, and waiting for effective results takes YEARS (assuming a medical system that isn't ideologically captured by transphobes into suppressing research, which... well...).

Posted by: tommie 22nd April 2023, 05:41 AM

Is this the definition of cope

Finally you have something tangible about "trans kids" and it just doesn't go your way. Love that for you.

Posted by: Iz 💀 22nd April 2023, 06:21 AM

No, I'm reading the study (where the main conclusion is that there is nothing tangible), not reacting to a tweet headline.

Posted by: tommie 22nd April 2023, 06:27 AM

lmao is it worse than those "1%" studies, or are those absolute facts?

Posted by: Iz 💀 22nd April 2023, 06:36 AM

? It's the article linked in the tweet, which doesn't represent the article effectively. It examines a bunch of studies, 24 specifically, as they were 'relevant', noting a variety of effects for patients taking specific hormones but makes pains to emphasise at every point that the volume of data is still far too low to make credible medical consensus on the subject - particularly given the lack of control groups.

Why does this mean that trans people shouldn't receive care?

Posted by: tommie 22nd April 2023, 06:53 AM

Nowhere did I say this. I said "trans kids" are a newly created phenomena and should probably be checked for autism.

Actually, anyone who is trans should be checked.

Posted by: Iz 💀 22nd April 2023, 07:12 AM

The tweet implied stopping of trans care.

But as to the autistic point, we already tend to know that there is some overlap between transness and autism, more than you'd expect, though certainly not every trans person. Possibly due to autistic people not caring as much for societal norms. But that doesn't mean we should question the diagnosis of autistic people or stop them if they are both.

Posted by: tommie 22nd April 2023, 08:15 AM

Or you know, due to how many autistic peeps tend to have special interests and how they end up masking.

But what do I know!

There's, for some reason, a record amount of "trans people" these days. Have no idea why!

Posted by: Silas 22nd April 2023, 08:28 AM

Theres also record amounts of the rest of the alphabet mafia too.

It’s no longer illegal, people don’t have to hide who they have always been, society is more accepting && many many more reasons why there’s more of all of us

Posted by: danæ 26th April 2023, 11:53 AM

Torygraph are angry today because a trans woman finished… 6160th in the London Marathon women’s category

Posted by: Harve 28th July 2023, 08:28 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/wes-streeting-apologises-to-labour-mp-rosie-duffield-who-felt-ostracised-due-to-gender-views

Not voting for this party, see ya

Posted by: T Boy 28th July 2023, 08:41 PM

Oh god the next election is going to be an unneeded shambles. Why are Labour taking the shittiest stance on everything? Why are the bigots in this country always pandered to more than anyone?

Posted by: Jade 28th July 2023, 08:54 PM

It's frustrating, the Tories have been in power for exactly half of my life and a change I've been hoping for is finally very likely on the horizon, yet with the current obvious faults of the Labour party including the noted transphobe above the most enthusiasm I can muster up right now about a turning of the tide in power is "well at least it's not the Tories"... sigh

Posted by: J00prstar 29th July 2023, 11:46 AM

I wiuld still vote for them in the hope this is a ploy to get votes bc lesser of two evils but... I seriously think both parties overestimate the amount of people who are transphobic. Women especially! I literally don't think I know any transphobic women. Even my mum who doesn't like drag queens!

On another note. Amused to see arch transphobe Kathleen Stock recently u-turning as soon as she was actually negatively affected by her allies. Apparently when it comes to lesbian rights, I quote: "sometimes biological reality isn't everything"! What a hypocrite!

Posted by: blacksquare 27th August 2023, 12:37 PM

This one really hurts.

One of my favourite artists of all time and queer icon, Róisín Murphy, had some https://twitter.com/joannacuddle/status/1694324286301831173 on Facebook about puberty blockers and her anger about potentially being labelled a TERF. Absolutely no word from her until this morning when she pinned a https://www.instagram.com/thedevilsinthedetail7/ to her Instagram about how the trans lobby is 'transing away our gay youth' — truly disappointing. I don't understand how this happens to someone so heavily involved in the queer community, who has borrowed from and had support for literal decades. Unbelievable.

https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1694406197833568449 and other right-wing transphobes who had no interest in her and didn't know she existed until this weekend have now come to her defence.

Posted by: Jade 27th August 2023, 12:45 PM

Oh yes, I fell into a wormhole about this after noticing that her Popjustice thread had transphobe in its title... really disappointing.

It's disturbing that so much fear-mongering about children is being used as an angle to suck people in.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 27th August 2023, 05:05 PM

You've summed up how I feel about this, I tried to draw on huge amounts of copium to make sense of it by thinking it was perhaps a one-off misguided comment coming from a place of ignorance, but the doubling down (although apparently she has now un-pinned this transphobic comment) with no explanation seems to betray it as her genuine strongly and deeply held opinion. It's very sad and heartbreaking to now see this mask slip, especially given as you say she is a hugely influential and respected artist and an icon in the queer community.

It feels like we've lost Róisín, lost her to the monsters that inhabit Glinner and all the other transphobes who spend basically all of their time and oxygen on hatred and division. I hope she is given the chance to reflect on this and at the very least distances herself from those awful people.

Posted by: dandy* 28th August 2023, 04:17 PM

I think this is a slight overreaction tbh. I’m not a fan of condemning people for mistakes and I do think that it’s understandable why perfectly caring individuals could consider puberty blockers as worrying, it doesn’t instinctively feel like a good thing to do and there isn’t a lot out there at the moment about the potential positive effects of using them.

Cancel culture is awful really and reflects the very worst of social media in my opinion. Things should be kept in perspective and people should be given chance to learn more without being expected to get everything right from the off. I’m willing to wait and see what she does from here on in - the overdramatic response can be more damaging. People can be right about things but bombarding their own viewpoint in a shouty kinda way doesn’t help - I read some of the replies and just think they are more off-putting to people who haven’t made up their mind on issues.

Posted by: Colm 28th August 2023, 06:40 PM

How can she be a TERF when nothing she said was about trans women? It was about puberty blockers and she termed trans young people as little mixed up kids.

Posted by: Colm 28th August 2023, 06:48 PM

I agree 100%. But maybe that's my cis privilege showing.

Posted by: dandy* 28th August 2023, 07:23 PM

Yeah maybe so, it can be difficult to be that self aware sometimes - although I do hope not as I think how people behave on social media when someone says something either ill informed or that they don't agree with is a problem across all issues, I wouldn't just say it's only a problem with this particular topic.

Posted by: Colm 28th August 2023, 07:35 PM

I didn't mean to accuse you of having cis privilege.

Posted by: dandy* 28th August 2023, 07:40 PM

lol you didn't! I was just agreeing that it was a possibility! And realistically I do have that privilege, it's just difficult to know at times whether that influences your views or not on an issue.

Posted by: Colm 28th August 2023, 07:49 PM

I generally think that social media and the internet in general is an inadequate platform to discuss contentious issues because body language and tone of voice aren't taken into account. All it takes is a slightly misjudged comment and both sides become polarised and it's all over.

Posted by: Smint 28th August 2023, 09:01 PM

Social media and the internet sadly is where most of discussions take place nowadays and such debates are leading lots of topics (not just this one) to very dark places.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 29th August 2023, 12:06 AM

I agree that discussions and debates online can struggle with nuance and can quickly polarise or lead to ppl getting the wrong impression, the instant reaction that any misjudged comment gets today can quickly blow-up out of proportion and the context lost. However, I get an uneasy feeling about this because she did pin (albeit temporarily) an explicitly transphobic comment/account which doubled down on what she appeared to say, using terms that are linked to a lot of the transphobic conspiracies that are propagated by Glinner et. al.

It's obviously fine to have an opinion on something but why is it so important speak out on this particular issue when there are many other important issues affecting young people and wider society today? Those comments you've identified are completely ignorant - puberty blockers have been used safely for decades, not only within the context of those who have gender dysphoria, so she is wrong here. As for the comments about 'mixed up little kids' and 'transing away our gay youth', these are pretty offensive comments IMO, if not explicity transphobic per se. I think these would probably be somewhat consistent with having a generally negative opinion on the trans community. Then using the term 'big pharma' just rings all of the conspiracy theory loon alarms anyway. Yes the pejorative term 'TERF' does get bandied around far too easily and in these kind of debates we can risk pushing someone further into these conspiracies by not giving them space, understanding and the opportunity to discuss their genuine concerns.

Nobody has said anything about cancel culture in this thread, and I agree with you Dandy that it is awful, more I was just expressing sadness and disappointment but really we should be able to seperate the art from the artist.

Just to put this out there- I have no direct experience of ppl in the trans community, so I speak only from what I've read from those that are. I think it's important to hear their voices more than those we end up hearing from and I seek to understand purely on a human empathetic level and I will get things wrong, so I apologise if it comes across in any way insensitive.

Posted by: dandy* 29th August 2023, 04:19 AM

Just to clarify, when I mentioned comments being an overreaction I meant the ones directly to Róisín on twitter, not on here from either you or blacksquare - but I do appreciate that it could have read like that, yet more problems with discussing things online haha. Some valid points are being made by the person on twitter but after a while the 20+ messages start to feel more like they are aimed at attacking her rather than just making positive arguments. Why not just respond directly where the ill informed comment was made on Facebook instead.


I too agree that it would be more helpful for the subject in general to hear more from trans people who have experience of using puberty blockers in their circumstances and how it’s helped them.

Posted by: J00prstar 29th August 2023, 05:49 PM

I think the term 'kids' is itself loaded when talking about people transitioning at a younger age because it deliberately implies (and sometimes articles even conflate) pre-pubescent children, ideas of actual children dressing up as characters of another gender being used as evidence/grounds for irreversible surgeries, etc.

The 'kids' in these stories are nearly always teenagers for one thing, in most cases post-puberty and in some cases also over 16. When they are not yet able to access hormones and surgical changes their experience of 'transition' takes the form of generally changing their style of clothes, hair, and perhaps going by a different name in school and with peers and family. This to my mind is a far cry from the fearmongering stories and is something that when I was in school a lot of teens, in my school who WEREN'T trans would do generally around puberty.

Posted by: Colm 29th August 2023, 08:58 PM

When I asked why she was being called a TERF I wasn't at all condoning what she said or even disputing that she is transphobic. It was the use of the term TERF to describe her that I questioned. I understand the term to mean a feminist who holds the view that transwomen are not women.

I'll be chatting to my trans and non-binary mates on Friday when I see them. It will be interesting to find out their view. They'll no doubt educate me on puberty blockers too.

Posted by: Smint 29th August 2023, 10:26 PM

Roisin has done a kind of semi/non apology and said she's not going to say more about the subject....

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/08/29/roisin-murphy-responds-terf-comment-backlash-trans/

Posted by: Doctor Blind 29th August 2023, 11:35 PM

^ Don't worry Dandy, I didn't think you were - and that's surprising coming from me considering how paranoid and reactionary I am irl.

OK, sorry for misunderstanding you Colm. Yeah, I believe that was the original definition, but it has since broadened to include basically anyone who is anti-trans.

I fell down a rabbit hole last night reading about Graham Linehan, would not recommend. 😔

Posted by: Colm 30th August 2023, 06:20 AM

This is a perfect example of how things get polarised. I could have worded my post to be clearer but I didn't and I could well have been roasted alive for defending a transphobe, or even being transphobic myself. In turn, I'd be left with the impression that I couldn't have a civil conversation with someone about the comments left by Roisin Murphy and that the trans brigade is a zero tolerance, aggressive and unreasonable faction. And if I was a moderate right-winger I'd be picking sides pretty quickly.

The fault was my own, Dr. B.

Posted by: J00prstar 30th August 2023, 09:46 AM

Tbh I think with this subject that is another (possibly side) issue as well; people starting off with academic or specialised language in a certain context, then other people either misunderstanding it online or in conversations irl (or it being misrepresented in news media articles) with the result that people end up talking past each other and each coming away with a completely different understanding of their conversation or the topics.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 12th September 2023, 06:14 AM

Cancel culture type activism actively harms the causes it supposedly supports. This is why it should be rejected. Remember, marriage equality was not won this way.

Seriously, the past decade has been a disaster from the view of progressive political strategy. It has produced nothing but support for Trump, DeSantis and people like them. Let's just rewind 7-10 years and begin again from there.

Posted by: T Boy 12th September 2023, 04:37 PM

Cancel culture only doesn’t work because it doesn’t exist. Roisin Murphy allegedly cancelled looking at her best chart position in decades. Those who claim to be cancelled and silenced are extremely loud.

Posted by: Hassaan 13th September 2023, 12:14 PM

I would respectfully disagree.

It doesn't work on powerful people who have big fanbases or whatever.

It does, however, affect the ordinary person who gets sacked from a job because of a tweet they wrote as a child (for example).

Posted by: dandy* 13th September 2023, 01:26 PM

I'm intrigued by that as I'm not sure I can think of any examples where an ordinary person has been affected by cancel culture. Do you have any situations in mind?


I can definitely think of situations where an ordinary person is held accountable for the way they've acted at the time within their employment etc but I wouldn't really count that as being the same as 'cancel culture'

Posted by: Hassaan 13th September 2023, 02:17 PM

I'm mainly thinking of those people who have been sacked from a job for an old tweet rather than simply being given a talking to (and the person is clearly not the same person as they were). It has happened to the odd soap actor too (not ordinary in that sense but hardly big names either).

I think we haven't really found that line between holding someone accountable and 'cancelling' them.

The problem with these Twitter pile-ons, regardless of whether or not the person actually deserves it, is that I don't believe anything is gained. The person on the other end of it is not going to learn much from thousands of people screaming at them, and may make them more resentful instead. It doesn't matter how genuinely apologetic they might be, they'll still get ripped to shreds.

Posted by: Dobbo 13th September 2023, 02:48 PM

I've never heard of any regular person getting sacked from a job because an old tweet. I'm sure they'd have ample sources of recourse especially if it clearly had no bearing on their performance.

Posted by: T Boy 13th September 2023, 05:13 PM

I do remember there was a soap actor who was sacked for racist tweets from years ago but these also hadn’t been deleted and despite it being years ago, people were still able to view them. And it’s not exactly cancellation but an employer deciding to let them go due to a badly kept social media. That is something you get warned about before entering the world of work. And it definitely isn’t cancellation if people weren’t aware of you anyway.

Cancelling is not a real thing. It’s a celeb made construct to deflect from the awful things some of them are saying and doing. Why is it some people always focus on ‘how’ someone expresses their disappointment and less on the actions of the bigoted?

Posted by: Eric_Blob 13th September 2023, 06:30 PM

In my opinion you should allow DNA testing for children in advance of puberty blockers. If a young boy has gender identity issues, and we find out he actually has XXY or XXXY chromosomes or something like that, then there'd be a LOT less controversy over him getting puberty blockers and maybe eventually transitioning. You can't argue with biology and an actual DNA test. People would understand it a lot more if it's someone who has an actual biological condition. If it's a "normal" kid people are worried they've been manipulated into it.

And if it's found out that they have usual chromosomes then there should be mental health evaluations first before going to transition. A shockingly high amount of trans people have been victims of sexual abuse in early childhood, and it's at a MUCH higher rate than non-trans people. So that suggests being a victim of sexual abuse as a young child may cause gender identity issues in the victim. Correlation does not equal causation, but the correlation is there, so that needs to be addressed, it's harmful to ignore this fact, people out there are struggling and need help. And accidentally transitioning someone who temporarily thinks they might trans when they're really not will cause even more suffering to an already damaged person.

Also, you guys can pretend to misunderstand what I'm saying all you want. But I'm not going to check this thread again (at least not for a few weeks), so ridicule me all you want. I know there will be people reading who will understand what I mean, that's what's important, and how we can resolve this issue.

Posted by: T Boy 13th September 2023, 07:19 PM

‘Pretend to misunderstand’ yeah, whatever you say.

Just bound into the thread, say something you know might not be the shared view amongst the majority and then run out again declaring you won’t return because it’s our problem if we don’t agree with you.

This is my issue with anti-trans people. They don’t want to understand, they don’t even want to talk. They just want to shout and then my shielded from the response/criticism.

Posted by: Liаm 13th September 2023, 07:35 PM

Why do people act like hormones and puberty blockers are handed out like sweets It’s a long waiting list to even get an appointment with a gender specialist, and then a diagnosis is needed. People are piling on a hot button issue that the media are pedalling is “cool” to be against yet they don’t seem to have any idea of what’s actually going on. Which is perfectly characteristic of the demented anti trans mob who are just obsessed with spewing bile. It really makes me sick, I can’t fathom living your life purely driven by such hatred for something that doesn’t even affect you.

Posted by: JosephStyles 13th September 2023, 07:43 PM

I can't believe what I've read here. I'm not here to "ridicule" you and I don't believe people on Buzzjack stoop that low, so I assume you're just not happy to read any backlash to a post as outlandish as this. This framing of transitioning as a solution to sexual assault is alarming, no matter what the statistics say. If someone who has previously been sexually assaulted wants to transition, so what? Why is that an issue? Why are some people allowed to be trans by your suggestion and not others? Why should trans people beckon to the vocal minority who are anti-trans? We can resolve the issue by increasing trans visibility in media, having laws that recognise trans people as equal citizens to cis people, and have people in positions of power speaking up to support the trans community, as well as the continued impact of pride parades and the like. Deciding who can and can't transition takes away free will from people and dehumanises trans people.

"Accidentally transitioning" is not a thing btw. Transitioning is a long process and starts long before any actual procedures or even before hormones/puberty blockers are prescribed. Some people de-transition but that's a *tiny* amount going by statistics online. It's not an overnight thing, nor is it "temporary." People may change how they feel and identify but that is not representative of all trans people and you can't tar all with the same brush, it's simply not fair.

In future, I'd suggest you think before posting if you're just going to drop a post and then run off, scared of the blowback. It suggests you're not here to debate or listen to alternative opinions, you just want people to accept what you say as gospel and truth. Save yourself (and us) the effort in future.

Posted by: J00prstar 13th September 2023, 09:15 PM

For what it's worth I do think genetic testing or screening might be helpful for a lot of issues, speaking as someone with a late diagnosed genetic condition that could have been managed years earlier if only someone had looked for it.

Sadly though regarding chromosomal differences although logically you might think thay would open the door for medical practicioners to discuss gender and variances, instead in many places the prevailing medical attitude is that instead they need to OVERcorrect and pull out all the stops to help your external body match a gender stereotype, instead of letting it be an entry way to discussion of how the patient feels.

There has even been cases of trans women with cancer being accused of faking it in order to move up the list for bottom surgery. It's really gross and an attitude that I hope will change in this country, to take a 'fixing you' approach rather than a 'what do you feel' approach.

Re sexual assault that is another more complex issue which I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on. I think it's a tough subject at the best of times and drawing a link like that could certainly be construed as problematising trans identity as something that could be fixed through prevention instead of something that could occur naturally in the human brain or body.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 14th September 2023, 04:41 AM

This is the problem that many won't acknowledge. And it is helping people like Trump and DeSantis win. Which is why we need to fix this problem.

Posted by: ta-ra*el~la 14th September 2023, 04:47 AM

I actually agree with your observation, to a large extent. But this is also a problem for us to fix. We, the ones who want reform, need to encourage a healthy and productive dialogue, and we need to find a way to achieve that urgently. Too many activists are just happy to say that we're right and they're wrong, and we're not changing anything, while LGBT rights are being taken away as a result of the failure of such activism. This is not good enough!

Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st September 2023, 07:13 PM

5-fold increase in Daily Mail articles on trans people (the majority of which are framed negatively) and look what happens in the British Social Attitudes Survey

Depressing.

More here: https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/09/09/transphobia-uk-press-media-negative-coverage/

Posted by: Envoirment 21st September 2023, 07:26 PM

Very sad. I can't see things improving until the current government is no more (really hoping they are wiped out at the next general election).

Posted by: Moby Dick 21st September 2023, 07:38 PM

No surprise - Tories have been using trans peoplr as a wedge culture war issue. Not that long ago a trans woman won Big Brither!! Imagine that happening today :/

Posted by: J00prstar 21st September 2023, 08:05 PM

The fact its gone from a majority to a minority in just six years is bad enough, but what I find even more frustrating is the internet loons creating a false narrative that it was never higher, that trans people are new etc.

I've even seen claims that the pandemic made people trans! Come the f on. Lots of disingenuous 'gay is fine but trans is too far' arguing too - as if that didn't used to be the other way round!

Posted by: Chez Wombat 21st September 2023, 08:51 PM

The celebrity rhetoric/'cancel culture' bullshit with regards to the conversation certainly hasn't helped, it can also make right wing figures look 'progressive' given the whole caring about women angle, and this government have nicely picked it up as a non-issue to dog whistle at when they want to distract attention. But it seems even so called 'progressives' can't agree on it with it being framed as simple "concern" around women and children and 'accepting your gender' and whatever. I hear murmurs of it at work from colleagues and they all work in learning support which has many students which are trans...

It's really sad, it seems the one minority that the bigots can hold onto still persecuting and it being acceptable, hopefully a new government will bring a less openly transphobic equality minister but then Labour haven't exactly been outspoken about their trans support...:/

Posted by: Smint 21st September 2023, 11:02 PM

The increase in transphobic opinion is depressing, although I like to remind myself it isn't an issue that the majority of people wake up in the morning worrying about compared to say cost of living, health or even immigration. The Tories' obsession with it (helped all the way by our disgusting media) isn't exactly giving them a big lead in the polls.

That's of no consolidation to the trans people, their allies (and let's not forget trans appearing people) who suffer abuse and discrimination on a more frequent basis.

Posted by: Moby Dick 25th September 2023, 12:05 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66910604.amp

Transphobia splits up Eternals

Posted by: Hassaan 25th September 2023, 02:24 PM

I don't understand what the endgame is for all of this from the Tories' perspective.

I know there's using it as a distraction and everything else but it's like they don't even care about the fact they're playing with people's lives. I know they're Tories but still.

Posted by: J00prstar 25th September 2023, 03:20 PM

Honestly so many Tory policies in the last few years have come off like they DON'T realise they have real world impacts, and they are just RPGing with hypotheticals.

Posted by: J00prstar 29th September 2023, 07:16 AM

I'm sure everyone will be thrilled to know JK Rowling has released a new detective book...

in which an autistic teenager is coerced into joining a dangerous religious cult where anyone who criticises it is cancelled. Inside the cult everyone is made to have sex with each other, even if they are lesbians or gay they are made to have sex with people with bodies they aren't attracted to. This is in no way indicative of Rowling's views about any group of people...

Luckily the hero of the book is able to infiltrate the cult by dyeing her hair blue.

Oh, and it's 900 pages long. Remember this used to be an award-winning author famed for her creativity and imaginativeness?

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/09/28/jk-rowling-cormoran-strike-the-running-grave-review-lgbtq-trans/

Posted by: T Boy 29th September 2023, 08:30 PM

My god has this woman no self awareness at all?

Posted by: Moby Dick 29th September 2023, 10:41 PM

J.K, this isn't it!!!!!

Posted by: Hassaan 30th September 2023, 09:16 AM

Why does it have to be an autistic teenager too? I'm autistic and I'm not sure if she's basically mocking us for being easily led (which may be true but still).

Posted by: Danæ 30th September 2023, 10:05 AM

I'd hope them being autistic isn't a huge plot point but one of the gender critical talking points does seem to be about the link between being autistic and being trans so that's probably why

my mum had of course already read half the book already before I'd heard of its existence lol

Posted by: blacksquare 3rd October 2023, 01:48 PM

Ah yes, this is the current issue with the NHS.

This does nothing to improve patient care, let alone women's health. I'm so bloody tired of trans people being continuously used as a dog whistle.

Posted by: J00prstar 3rd October 2023, 04:41 PM

The darkly amusing thing that I take from this besides the obvious impacts is:

You Tories have been in power for THIRTEEN YEARS and for TWELVE YEARS AND ELEVEN MONTHS you had zero issue with trans women being on women's wards, otherwise you would have raised it sooner.

Why is it SUDDENLY an issue?

Posted by: Smint 3rd October 2023, 05:32 PM

And now a long standing gay London Assembly member was removed by the police from Suella Braverman for, very gently, commenting out loud about her latest Hitler-style anti-trans rant.

But we ain't seen nothing yet sadly. What a depressing time we live in.

Posted by: T Boy 3rd October 2023, 06:18 PM

This is so worrying, I just despair. Why aren’t they concerned for the dignity of trans women? Or trans men for that matter?

Posted by: spiceboy 3rd October 2023, 07:40 PM

Truly sickening the way they are targeting trans again. She also made a dig when talking about preventing sec offenders from changing their names saying they would stop them changing names and gender to sexually attack others… because people are changing gender to sexually attack people aren’t they. Going through all that just so they can be a predator. She is utterly VILE!

Posted by: dandy* 3rd October 2023, 07:40 PM

As Conservatives, we know what a woman is. Yes, it's one of those things you get rid of after 49 days.

Posted by: Envoirment 3rd October 2023, 09:50 PM

Being used as a distraction/scapegoat. Rishi expected to announce the scrapping of HS2 from Birmingham to Manchester tomorrow. He was also on the news today saying the #1 reason for NHS waiting lists being at record highs was due to doctors strikes

They're going all out to try and blame/use whatever they can as scapegoats for their terrible track record over the last 13 years. I am very much hoping this will massively backfire and the conservatives will get annihilated at the next general election.

I feel so sad for Trans women. All these non-issues previously being made into issues for the sake of a political party trying to hide its absolute incompetance.

Posted by: T Boy 4th October 2023, 12:14 PM

And the prime minister has literally come out as a huge transphobe in his speech. He makes me sick.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 4th October 2023, 02:02 PM

I just can't get my head around it - they only thing they have left is to appeal to inherently transphobic people which unfortunately is "popular" to hate on now. It's disgusting, if anyone really thinks trans people are legitimately an issue for anyone they need to seek therapy.

I absolutely despair for this country. It's an embarrassment and I'm so ashamed to be British. I would hope this would turn the tides but I'm not so sure, I can't really imagine a time were not under Tory Nazi dictatorship.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 4th October 2023, 04:07 PM

On a similar theme, it's interesting to me that there are those who claim to have "genuine concerns" and feel the need to speak out over the safety of children/adolescents wrt puberty blockers, yet also have absolutely nothing to say over those same people who are suffering from suicidal thoughts due to their gender dysphoria. It doesn't come from a place of love that they believe or want you to believe it does. Sadly it is because they are framing everything through their transphobia and conveniently only listening to and raising concerns when they support their own bigotry, their own stupidity induced confirmation bias.

The speech yesterday from Suella was horrific, and that Tory politician being kicked out by the Police for merely disagreeing with her was incredibly worrying to see.

The whole unhinged moral panic, just sick of it.

Posted by: Envoirment 4th October 2023, 07:03 PM

Those same people are also likely those who stayed muted after the discovery of the extent of child abuse that occurred by the church.

They only "care" when there is some sort of political or personal gain.

If they really cared about young children using pubery blockers then maybe they would care to help raise funds for better mental health support and have counselling freely available and regular for those children that need it.

I really give up with this country sometimes.

Posted by: Slayer 4th October 2023, 07:20 PM

The conservatives make me sick.

Posted by: Smint 4th October 2023, 09:52 PM

The thing is that although, tragically, people are in general less accepting of trans people since all these ridiculous, relentless scare stories, all the evidence is that it is not a vote winner as trans issues comes very low on people's priorities at election time. Yes it is a distraction/scapegoat but I think, sadly, the main reason the Tories go for trans people is that they are bullies and enjoy causing misery to people's lives. Especially, as despite this ridiculous assertion of an all-powerful trans lobby that unlike, arguably, some other minorities, trans people have absolutely no way of coming back against the aggressors. A statement I hear regularly in recent times is 'The cruelty is the point'.

Posted by: blacksquare 8th October 2023, 07:56 AM

No worries, change is coming.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/07/starmer-warns-labour-dont-get-giddy-over-prospect-of-election-victory?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Posted by: T Boy 8th October 2023, 09:39 AM

It’s so depressing. I have already had to deal with the fall out of Sunak’s speech as there were a couple of transphobic incidents at school at the tail end of last week. Starmer is surely not helping and I’m actually not even sure now that I could even vote Labour just to get the Tories out as I’m not sure my moral compass could allow it.

Posted by: Smint 9th October 2023, 10:46 PM

I understand although Labour overall as a party will be much more sympathetic to LGBT rights and the Tories will get much worse and sadly there isn't any other party that will form government apart from Labour (although I pray and hope for a Lib Dem explosion in the blue wall/South of England and a coalition - know that they excel in by elections though)

Labour have just announced a no exceptions total ban on conversion therapy which the Tories have dropped completely from this Government, purely because Sunak is a nasty, repellant homophobe.

Posted by: Hassaan 10th October 2023, 10:39 AM

It feels like Labour are positioning themselves as a nicer version of the Tories purely to win votes, and they may roll back on a lot of the stuff if they get elected.

Not sure they're necessarily acting as the opposition in that case but I'm not as clued up on this sort of thing.

Posted by: ~1^∞ 13th October 2023, 09:03 PM

Starmer and many other Labour members are shit, but I hope that the change to a more progressive party allows for more supportive Labour members to make local changes at the very least, here's to hoping we only go up from here

Posted by: spiceboy 14th October 2023, 06:39 AM

Starker is just as horrendous as Sunak I hate him. Miss the days of corbyn leading Labour but the country fell for the ridiculous propaganda about him. Utterly heartbreaking the utter shambles our country is in.

Posted by: J00prstar 19th October 2023, 05:54 PM

Seems Rowling has gone mask off: https://deadline.com/2023/10/jk-rowling-prison-time-transgender-views-1235577768/

Posted by: blacksquare 28th November 2023, 08:40 AM

The https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-67543984 coming out of the Brianna Ghey trial is truly https://twitter.com/jessothomson/status/1729078401166881158. Of course, some journalists are deadnaming in their reports.

It's hard not to feel like this is the result of the constant dehumanisation of trans people, and how transphobic hate has essentially become both socially accepted and mainstream.

Trigger warning — this text by one of the boys has really stuck with me, "I want to see if it will scream like a man or a girl"

Vile, evil stuff.

Posted by: dandy* 28th November 2023, 12:51 PM

at the bit you spoilered :/

Posted by: J00prstar 28th November 2023, 04:25 PM

I'm avoiding much of it because it's upsetting, but one element that I did come across -

When they chose to murder her, this was the second time they tried. They previously tried to kill her by poisoning her with an overdose of pills that they managed to slip her. I didn't see how it failed but, jesus christ.

They had also planned on murdering a boy they knew and gruesomely, keeping some of the body parts.

Truly disgusting. I can't understand what possesses a person to think such things. These people had torture on their minds and the way that Brianna lost her life is just too sad with multiple wounds.

Posted by: Smint 28th November 2023, 05:34 PM

They seem to be a truly evil couple of children. I'm guessing they just love the idea of killing like a young Fred and Rose West.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 29th November 2023, 05:40 PM

I see that having incited the hatred, and arguably created the conditions that led to her death, the Fail are now apparently running a podcast to follow the murder trial. It's also called 'Brianna Ghey: The Trial' when she's not on trial at all. Grim.

Likewise I've tried to avoid this, I did tho manage to persuade someone at work who is usually quite progressive but was anti the GRA reforms that the Scottish Government tried to bring in last year, to bring them around by explaining that had they existed already they would have prevented the final injustice to Brianna, which is of course being misgendered on her death certificate.

Posted by: Smint 29th November 2023, 11:28 PM

I'm wondering whether all this publicity over Brianna's murder may actually create more sympathy and understanding of trans people ith the general public than the other way round. Out of something so horrible maybe there can be some good.

Posted by: Jessie Where 22nd December 2023, 12:24 PM

Brianna Ghey's killers have been found guilty, the judge has lifted reporting restrictions and they'll be named publically when sentenced on 11th February.

Posted by: JackTheeStallion 22nd December 2023, 12:37 PM

It hasn't, it's actually invited more transphobia which is absolutely baffling - so so many hateful nasty comments under every post of Brianna's. It is so horrid to see, I can only imagine how her family and friends are feeling .

Posted by: Smint 22nd December 2023, 09:46 PM

Twitter is an absolute cesspit - I would say that it would be great if people just moved to Threads but Meta has it's own problems (like shadowbanning pro Palestinian content). Just hope offline people are a bit more sympathetic.

Posted by: J00prstar 5th January 2024, 08:45 PM

The Telegraph and other media outlets are currently throwing a shit fit about Munroe Bergdorf, a trans woman celebrity, being given a role to work/represent the organisation as a UK Woman's Ambassador.

The article and some online commentators have somehow managed to twist the definition of represent (i.e.: appear on behalf of) to suggest that the UN is putting her up as the ONLY POSSIBLE representation (i.e: visual appearance/physical existence) of women and thus erasing cis women or otherwise threatening them.

The fact the entire argument is based on what's being kind,a basic misunderstanding, seems to be completely irrelevant. So much for facts being more important than feelings as they love to claim...

I mean it totally falls apart when you bring up any other facts about people who represent any kind of law or authority in the country. The King represents the UK on the world stage... but he's not a woman, gasp, so how can he represent women?!

Posted by: JosephBoone 18th February 2024, 04:47 PM

"Disappointed but not surprised" springs to mind. Gross.

Posted by: J00prstar 18th February 2024, 07:10 PM

Power corrupts

Posted by: Smint 18th February 2024, 09:19 PM

The Telegraph used to be thought of by many as "sensible, reasonable conservatism". There's no doubt it's pure fecking evil nowadays. Don't agree with a single thing it writes.

Despite Brianna Ghey's murder, there's utterly hysteria about trans people at the moment. I hadn't heard about the Bergdorf/UN thing but there's loads about an internal John Lewis staff magazine posting trans- inclusive content with wishes of "Go woke Go broke" and they're trying to stop Park Run as they count trans women in the female results section, despite it overwhelmingly being a bit of fun.
Grim.

Posted by: Suedehead2 18th February 2024, 10:31 PM

The Telegraph, of course, also used the name Brianna was given at birth in early reports of her murder. The right-wing press as a whole has been a major contributor to the hatred that was one of the motives for this appalling crime.

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 19th February 2024, 12:06 AM

The Telegraph is a joke at the moment. It has taken the hard right talkin poitns = no to workin from home, no to prioritising heslth and mental well-bein over work, no to trans equality, yes to tax cuts, yes to Liz Truss' "growth" shit, no to Richi Rich, and keeps campaigning for all its political points in the form of shitty articles. Horrendous "jorusnlism". It is just trying to lesd the Tories from behind.

Posted by: Silas 19th February 2024, 02:31 PM

She could do so much with her wealth, and used to! She supported a research lab at a hospital in Edinburgh for example. To fund things like this is a conscious decision on her part to do bad things and spread hate. She’s been at it since she donated a million to better together back in the indyref (that’s when I cut off any and all engagement with her IP) and she’s continually funded worse and worse things and nastier and nastier people.

Buying licensed HP merch, buying her books, streaming the movies, watching the movies when they’re on TV etc etc etc all contribute to her wealth pile, all result in your hard earned cash being used to support shitty people and their shitty causes.

Disengage. Buy used copies of movies/games from charity shops. Don’t feed the monster

Posted by: Silas 19th February 2024, 02:39 PM

I loved Park Runs reaction to this of simply just deleting records in general and doubling down on „this is just for fun, get a grip“ and then undeterred and still outraged the media went to try and find supporters for their cause and everyone they spoke to went „this is just for fun, get a grip“


The public’s reaction is a reminder that It’s always good sometimes to take a step back and remember that the TERFs are just a viciously vocal internet minority with an insignificantly tiny percentage of the population behind them. The absolute majority of people couldn’t give a f*** what someone else does with their own life/body

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 19th February 2024, 03:35 PM

Buying second hand is a good idea. The only thing is, so many people go to Warnerland etc that buying some pens, etc, would be a drop in the ocean.

Posted by: Hassaan 19th February 2024, 04:42 PM

The thing I don't get with JK is why the whole thing is such an obsession for her. It seems like the only thing she ever talks about.

Posted by: Smint 19th February 2024, 09:15 PM

These things can be like a cult - bash a target to make one feel better for their miserable lives. Genuinely happy people don't have to fond a target like that - and not saying that people who aren't happy are prejudiced. And Internet is like lighter fluid to.this way of thinking to make it spread like wildfire.

I remember when there was a shooting by a woman in a church In USA (where else)recently, people were spreading rumours that it was a trans assailant with no evidence whatsoever.

Posted by: Smint 21st February 2024, 01:09 PM

Depressing news - transphobic and homophobic intimidation and bullying work in 2024. John Lewis cancel their
LGBT+ exhibition after relentless media/social media harassment. And when the monster gets fed it doesn't lay off instead it goes hungry for more.


https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/21/john-lewis-exhibition-lgbtq-cancelled-trans/

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 23rd February 2024, 04:36 PM

No one mentioning Liz Truss over in the US, blaming trans activist civil servants for "sabotaging" her far right libertarian late stagw capitalism "growth" "leadership"? Ahw's also acreaming she would vkte for nappy-wearing Trump...

Posted by: Jessie Where 23rd February 2024, 06:30 PM

Because everyone's seeing a mad cow with no relevance, credibility or intellect.

Posted by: Anita Hanjaab 23rd February 2024, 06:31 PM

Posted by: J00prstar 27th February 2024, 03:57 PM

Famous transphobe Helen Joyce who claims that any interaction between trans people and children is sexual and wrong has been spotted reading pornographic Harry Potter fanfiction featuring underage characters on a train in plain sight: https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1b1b11u/someone_on_twitter_caught_heen_joce_reading_harry/
https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/comments/1b199gv/welcome_to_the_best_twitter_thread_youll_read/

She has already claimed having been called out that this was 'for research'...

Posted by: dandy* 27th February 2024, 05:34 PM

lol that sounds like a parody!!!! 🤣

Posted by: T Boy 2nd April 2024, 06:31 PM

All this JK Rowling crap with the new Scottish Hate Crime bill has gotten me so depressed about the state of the UK. Twitter has been horrendous for transphobia.

Honestly it really upsets me so much. I work and have worked with many trans children and I just hope they’re not reading the stuff that I have.

Posted by: Smint 2nd April 2024, 09:24 PM

And she's been splashed on the front page of the Daily Heil approvingly as a hero. So depressing for trans people.

Posted by: J00prstar 2nd April 2024, 09:33 PM

Once again I bloody wish the reporting on the story would be honest!

All of the articles are framing it as a hypothetical, "if JK said XYZ would it be a crime" etc. - ignoring the fact that what she actually did was made a ton of transphobic statements, literally called named trans women men including basically doxxing people who weren't public figures and putting them in the same box as criminals, and only THEN cheerily said "arrest me if you don't like it".

Frankly she's a horrible piece of work. Who does that? She's just bullying at this stage, this had gone beyond quietly believing certain things.

Posted by: Chez Wombat 2nd April 2024, 10:39 PM

Yeah if you read beyond the clickbait, you'll see that what she was saying was never actually going to get her arrested, they even used it as an example, and anyway, the law states that it's down to the police discretion anyway and as if that would even be considering for someone that powerful without clear evidence. The fact this is given breaking news status alongside a school shooting and aid workers being assassinated in Gaza is so bloody depressing, yet more culture wars bullshit to distract from the government's failings which they will of course openly jump on.

Sadly, JK is still held in quite high regard with people I speak to (funny how her recent implict denial of treatment of transgender people in the Holocaust wasn't widely reported at all...) and any discussion of trans people are almost always framed negatively, I hate this world sometimes...

Posted by: Silas 2nd April 2024, 11:04 PM

Yeah but i was one of probably many who reported that holocaust tweet and now it's banned in Germany under the German hate crime bill that states holocaust denial is a crime. The person who has a tweet reported and withheld under German law actually gets notified. Funny how she never mentioned that, just the SNP law (which is from 2021, and errrr is a light update of the old law, and errrrr is broadly the same as the one in England and Wales, but lets not let facts get in the way of SNPBad)

Posted by: Popchartfreak 3rd April 2024, 10:29 AM

sticking with facts here, a "light update" of an existing law that already protected everybody, and instead cherry-picked some oppressed parts of society (I'm twice-covered under the new SNP act, being old and gay) and ignored others, and was so vague and undefined as to what constititutes Hate Speech was always going to need to be tested as a potential attack on freedom of speech and the protected right to have opinions and to offend. Hurt feelings is not a crime (and I've had my feelings hurt on BJ more than once), or else we would all be taking everybody to court claiming "Hate!". It's now been very clearly defined what will be wasting police time and what won't.

What Rowling did was a master-stroke of timing - it's effectively shown the act up to be a waste of time and resources (with a limp promise that sex-based rights will come "at a later date"). Had Rowling been taken to court it would have given a global stage to the nuttier beliefs and demands of some trans activists which I've commented on before (as in not science-based and illogical and self-contradicting) and been a huge coup against Trans Rights. So you might say that's a huge bullet dodged.

Gay people very much depend on sex-based rights BTW, particularly men, think cruising bars and saunas - gay, bi males and same-sex attracted transwomen have always been welcome and similarly gay, bi females and same-sex attracted transmen in equivalent spaces. That has now ended in Australia where biological reality has been superceded by the opposite-sex-attracted demanding that gay people stop being gay (and straight people stop being straight) and which means anyone can now claim to be whatever they want, so the traditional gay rights have effectively been lost there (barring future court cases to get them back). That might not bother most people in stable relationships (lucky you) but Stonewall is not addressing this loss of gay rights in Australia, indeed their silence must be taken as approval and the eventual intent globally. So Stonewall must also be letting out a massive sigh of relief that they can sweep it all under the carpet as usual and keep a low profile rather than make very clear statements that they support existing gay rights.

How about clarification Stonewall? Does same-sex-attraction exist? Are our rights to be same-sex-attraction absolute in your current agenda as it is in law (NOT same-gender attracted which means I have to stop being gay)? If so, why aren't you criticising the Australian legislation?

I support everyone's rights to be who they want to be, but not if it means losing my rights.

Posted by: T Boy 3rd April 2024, 11:55 AM

JK didn’t have to be a nasty bully even if what she said wasn’t technically evil. She dog whistled some hateful people to join her in cruelly bullying a minority group. She’s a terrible person and has moved far beyond ‘standing up for women’s rights’ which always was a weak cover for her bigotry.

I see the after effects of this behaviour. I speak to trans children who have had to suffer equally vicious comments from other children at school who parrot what their parents say which is parroted from the likes of JK who knows exactly what she’s doing. It’s hard enough being a child without having to cope with all of that on top of it.

Perhaps if she wasn’t so full of hate, she wouldn’t have to to test her own personality out against a hate crime law.

Posted by: Harve 4th April 2024, 10:02 AM

?

Posted by: J00prstar 4th April 2024, 04:04 PM

I'm exhausted to see people online keeping giving her the benefit of the doubt. Reddit is bad and some other forums too.

People are actually using the defence "well, she isn't transphobic because she said she isn't in her 2020 essay" as if someone's claim for whether or not they believe themself to be prejudiced should hold more weight than THEIR ACTIONS EVERY DAY WHICH COME FROM A PLACE OF PREJUDICE...

Posted by: Calum 4th April 2024, 09:53 PM

This post - the final sentence in particular - is a master-stroke of timing in telling us all what a massive bellend you are.

So what you're really saying, in summary, is 1) if anybody had the energy to dig deep enough we'd probably find you on some backward corner of the internet posting on an LGB Alliance forum feeding into the vitriol and hatred akin to that of Rowling & Co, and 2) you're more than happy to see trans people erased and continually denied the right to exist and live authentically and happily because there's more chance of your own rights as a gay man being left gleefully in tact (something trans people, for so many years, have fought with us to have in the first place)?

Those who wake up in the morning and their mission is to make life as difficult as possible for trans people and try to strip or deny every single right aren't just going to stop there if or when they get their way. Your/our rights will be their next target. Your paragraph about what's happening in Australia (can you cite some sources to provide more context please?) indicates you have concerns about your own rights now, so what leads you to believe there would be no correlation between trans people losing or never having the rights they deserve and the same happening to you, a gay man, at some point?

Personally, I'd be a lot more concerned about my rights as a gay man if the world continues down the path of relentless attempts at erasure and succeeds with an empty void left to fill, as opposed to sitting back and allowing it to happen knowing that at some point we will be sitting ducks saying 'well at least we weren't the first ones hit'. Insanity.

Posted by: J00prstar 20th May 2024, 10:43 PM

Another case in Scotland where 'woman worker wins gender rape group row' is being heavily misrepresented in the media and it's just exhausting.

What the situation actually is:

* A social worker who was consistently transphobic towards her trans and non-binary colleagues and had a grievance raised against her argued that her 'gender-critical' views were a protected characteristic

* Her employer didn't do quite a good enough job of definitively keeping open records on this and has been done essentially for mismanagement

How it's being described:

* Firstly, as if she worked at a medical centre where trans woman medics were physically investigating cis woman patients to their distress and the social worker was alarmed - complete fiction as the workplace was simply a counselling service

* Secondly as if cis women were being forced to take trans woman therapists - none are mentioned in the story either

* As if transphobia doesn't exist at all - despite accepting that this woman disliked and disrespected her trans colleagues and believed herself to be gender-critical, which is essentially an analogue for transphobic

* As if women were routinely being turned away from the centre after being screened to see if they accepted trans people or not

* And just generally people being totally incurious about the actual details of the case and using it as a jumping off point to confirm their existing biases.