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> EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June
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Suedehead2
post 17th January 2017, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

The EU will act in the interests of its members. That's what it's for. If that is not in the interests of the UK as a soon-to-be ex-member that isn't petty and spiteful.
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Popchartfreak
post 17th January 2017, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".


They have said time and again that they will look after their own interests. To do otherwise is to invite the end of the EU. To give the UK a good deal would be mass suicide, chaos in the eurozone countries and other countries demanding (as they have said) "cherry-picking" and I entirely support their right not to be taken down by one uppity country manipulated by right-wing rich powerful interests and anti-foreigner sentiment. We will end up with No Deal, because the EU has nothing to lose with that option. If the UK does well out of Brexit they have EVERYTHING to lose.

The UK government knows exactly what is coming, and they will try and blame the EU for whatever happens as far as limited agreement goes on anything, and on what happens to our economy (if it goes tits up - if it somehow improves then they will claim all the credit for themselves), during after and decades down the line. The Daily Mail won't stop blaming the EU because we have left because they will still need a scapegoat for all the ills in society...other than, say, poor people on strike getting above their station, and experts who tell the truth.
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PeaceMob
post 17th January 2017, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 17 2017, 08:12 PM) *
The EU will act in the interests of its members. That's what it's for. If that is not in the interests of the UK as a soon-to-be ex-member that isn't petty and spiteful.


Oh really, if the EU acts in the "interests of its members" then they really should do a good deal with the UK considering the EU has one of the largest economies in the world on their doorstep to export to, they have a large defence commitment from the UK and a free security service GCHQ, and as an added bonus the EU has easy access to London's financial institutions. But this is the EU we're talking about so I won't be surprised to see them cut off their nose to spite their face, especially when one of its presidents (Juncker) is openly saying he wants to "punish the UK" to discourage other countries from leaving, now what does that say about them.
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Suedehead2
post 17th January 2017, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 08:35 PM) *
Oh really, if the EU acts in the "interests of its members" then they really should do a good deal with the UK considering the EU has one of the largest economies in the world on their doorstep to export to, they have a large defence commitment from the UK and a free security service GCHQ, and as an added bonus the EU has easy access to London's financial institutions. But this is the EU we're talking about so I won't be surprised to see them cut off their nose to spite their face, especially when one of its presidents (Juncker) is openly saying he wants to "punish the UK" to discourage other countries from leaving, now what does that say about them.

The defence commitment has more to do with NATO than the EU. As for the financial institutions, Frankfurt and Paris will be itching to grab as much of that as they can.
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Harve
post 17th January 2017, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(Taylor Jago @ Jan 17 2017, 05:48 PM) *
I can't believe I once thought that woman was going to be reasonable. Unfortunately it seems inevitable that the rights of EU citizens to work and live in the UK (and vice versa) will be destroyed, and this country is about to crumble apart. Well done Mayhem!

And what a GREAT time for me to graduate with a degree that's inherently internationally orientated.

f*** the UK srsly. I want the right to work in other European countries whose languages I've spent 10 years mastering without having to qualify for a visa and get 'sponsored'. Eww.


This post has been edited by Harve: 17th January 2017, 09:12 PM
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PeaceMob
post 17th January 2017, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 17 2017, 08:52 PM) *
The defence commitment has more to do with NATO than the EU. As for the financial institutions, Frankfurt and Paris will be itching to grab as much of that as they can.

That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.
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lotita
post 17th January 2017, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE(Harve @ Jan 17 2017, 09:11 PM) *
And what a GREAT time for me to graduate with a degree that's inherently internationally orientated.

f*** the UK srsly. I want the right to work in other European countries whose languages I've spent 10 years mastering without having to qualify for a visa and get 'sponsored'. Eww.


i'm a first year german nd politics student and i'm already feeling devastated by this sad.gif sad.gif my year abroad has been promised but i'm terrified it's the last easy chance i'll get to work or study in another country
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Oliver
post 17th January 2017, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.


laugh.gif wow...
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Rooney
post 17th January 2017, 09:35 PM
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Well it was to be expected really. As much as I am not a huge fan of Teresa May and her stance, her hands are pretty tied. I'd love us to stay part of the single market as I believe it's a necessity for our country in the short term. But people voted because of immigration, so the Brexit hardliners would be absolutely crazy. I think this would just send people more to UKIP, when really as a party they should become pretty defunct now.

It's going to be really challenging for a lot of big companies who rely on the talents of foreign workers. The skillset for certain roles is just not available in the UK.
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Qassändra
post 17th January 2017, 09:50 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Which would hurt us far more than it would hurt any of the EU27 individually. Saying "we trade with the EU more than it trades with us" is about as persuasive of an argument to the EU to go out of their way to give us a good deal as "we get a net economic benefit from immigration" is to individual voters in the UK. It may well be the case collectively. But the sum benefit on an individual level is completely gulfed by how much more damaging it would be for their economies for the EU to be dismantled piecemeal.
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Qassändra
post 17th January 2017, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.

How is it clueless and ignorant? Berlin is literally running ad vans around the City of London encouraging financial institutions to move.
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Envoirment
post 18th January 2017, 12:01 AM
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I'm hoping there'll be some form of transitional deal over a period of about 5-8 years and that a decent trade deal that benefits both sides can be met during that time. There's going to be a lot to sort out at just 2 years doesn't seem enough time to do all that.

I suppose a positive is that there are multiple countries willing to strike trade deals as soon as we've left. If May and her team are on it, they'll begin drafting up deals and plans with those countries whilst brexit talks are ongoing, ready to implement/sign them as soon as we've left. Certainly isn't going to be easy.
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Danny
post 18th January 2017, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Jan 17 2017, 09:35 PM) *
Well it was to be expected really. As much as I am not a huge fan of Teresa May and her stance, her hands are pretty tied. I'd love us to stay part of the single market as I believe it's a necessity for our country in the short term. But people voted because of immigration, so the Brexit hardliners would be absolutely crazy. I think this would just send people more to UKIP, when really as a party they should become pretty defunct now.

It's going to be really challenging for a lot of big companies who rely on the talents of foreign workers. The skillset for certain roles is just not available in the UK.


Surely, then, the onus should be on those companies to actually train British workers themselves so that they have the skillset for those jobs? That's what they always used to do before the 1980s.
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Danny
post 18th January 2017, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 18 2017, 12:01 AM) *
I'm hoping there'll be some form of transitional deal over a period of about 5-8 years and that a decent trade deal that benefits both sides can be met during that time. There's going to be a lot to sort out at just 2 years doesn't seem enough time to do all that.

I suppose a positive is that there are multiple countries willing to strike trade deals as soon as we've left. If May and her team are on it, they'll begin drafting up deals and plans with those countries whilst brexit talks are ongoing, ready to implement/sign them as soon as we've left. Certainly isn't going to be easy.


I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.
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Popchartfreak
post 18th January 2017, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.


I'm visiting Suedehead in his hospital bed later today. I'm sure we'll have a joint laugh at the comment. Trust me, Simon is anything but clueless and ignorant about politics, used to be involved in politics.

The EU countries involved have already made statements intending to take away huge financial institutions from London, and the likes of JPMorgan (a huge employer in Bournemouth) have already said they will move if they don't get EU passporting deal services. Teresa May has chosen a very very hard Brexit, so there will be no banks passporting deals on the table. End of.

Being in denial of facts as they have been stated does not make them cease to be facts. There's a film out at the mo, called La La Land....

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Popchartfreak
post 18th January 2017, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:05 AM) *
Surely, then, the onus should be on those companies to actually train British workers themselves so that they have the skillset for those jobs? That's what they always used to do before the 1980s.


May has already started giving (undisclosed) financial tax-payer-supported sweeteners to companies looking to relocate. There is no way in hell that foreign-owned companies (which is most of 'em) wishing to bring in skilled foreign workers will be stopped from doing that - they dont want to pay for training, they want already trained available workers. May has had 5 years to stop skilled non-EU workers come into the country and has done nothing about it. That won't change. Only the lower-paid jobs will be affected.
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Popchartfreak
post 18th January 2017, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:11 AM) *
I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.


You're assuming the anti-EU mob will actually be aware of our economy being controlled by USA/China (China fyi already has big contracts to control part of our energy supplies as does the EU) and that parts of the NHS aren't already in the process of being privatised. Now, if low-paid Chinese workers suddenly start appearing in fields in Lincolnshire under a dual-freedom-of-movement deal (The USA wont' be doing that) then the angry man in the street might notice and complain, and if his mum dies on the way to hospital after waiting 4 hours for an ambulance, he might notice, but otherwise he will remain blissfully ignorant as always....
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Envoirment
post 18th January 2017, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:11 AM) *
I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.


Agreed to a certain extent - it's likely going to be a mix of positives and negatives (probably more negative). I'm hoping that they've seen the response to deals such as TTIP and CETA and do not go that way... It would be an absolute disaster. But then again it's a Tory government.


This post has been edited by Envoirment: 18th January 2017, 01:24 PM
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Suedehead2
post 18th January 2017, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 18 2017, 01:24 PM) *
Agreed to a certain extent - it's likely going to be a mix of positives and negatives (probably more negative). I'm hoping that they've seen the response to deals such as TTIP and CETA and do not go that way... It would be an absolute disaster. But then again it's a Tory government.

And a Tory government that was the biggest supporter of TTIP in the EU.
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Botchia
post 18th January 2017, 02:40 PM
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One thing that bugs me about Theresa's headline in her speech, she says no deal is better than a bad deal. But under Article 50, both the UK and EU HAVE to conclude an agreement for both its withdrawal and future relationship. It's also really not in the interests of either party to end up needing to use paragraph 3. It will cause so much instability for both the UK and EU. Please can we just get a quick and amicable deal done. Yes the EU doesn't want to make it easy for us to leave, since it will create a precedent, but making it difficult for us will just strengthen the populist movement across Europe.

As someone who voted Leave, it's a very wrong move to reject the EEA. The strength of the Remain vote should also have been taken into account. Adding both the Leave voters who support the EEA but not the EU and Remain voters surely would give an easy majority for staying in the single market. If anything, I'd now like a second referendum on whether we stay in the EEA because I'm quite convinced Remain would win. They're over estimating the power of the leave vote / UKIP, imo.
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