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> EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June
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Popchartfreak
post 26th January 2017, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 23 2017, 12:43 AM) *
I suppose the good thing is that the economic turmoil hasn't been as bad as it could've been so far and doesn't look to be a huge disaster for the future.


There are economists saying there's a feel-good factor going on (which actually makes sense) as those voting to leave feel pretty good about it all, and optimistic, despite the fall in the pound. As the higher prices and lower wage hikes, and job losses start to kick in though, things won't look quite so rosy. A Tax Haven country is doomed for one as large as us, so that is just idle threats. No country as large as ours can sustain the loss of revenue - the tax-dodging companies actually contribute little, that's why they are dodging off to offshore islands who can afford a tiny bit of tax to keep them going. The Eu will just hammer us if we try it (on the grounds they already have tax-havens in the Netherlands, Luxembourg etc and it will be a race downwards to pay zero corporation tax and everyone loses - except the giant internationals)
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Steve201
post 26th January 2017, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Jan 26 2017, 08:39 PM) *
I'm sure that many Labour MPs will show the three line whip for this vote the same respect that Jeremy gave it when he was a backbencher.


In fairness to Jezza he voted for legislation that was progressive and opposed legislation that he felt was regressive, fair play to him!
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Soy Adrián
post 26th January 2017, 11:39 PM
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Well on face value, the Article 50 rebels will be doing the same thing?
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Steve201
post 27th January 2017, 12:42 AM
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I know which is why I raised the issue about why he is having a 3-line whip!

Diane Abbot spoke well (for once) on QT arguing well that they were trying to respect the referendum result.
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Popchartfreak
post 27th January 2017, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 26 2017, 11:39 PM) *
Well on face value, the Article 50 rebels will be doing the same thing?

Absolutely they will, especially if they represent an area that voted. 100% of the country didnt vote for Brexit so why Corbyn is so obsessed with attempting to show 100% of MP's should vote for it is bizarre when it can be argued it's vital for the nations interest to get it right.

Either way they will piss off a legion of Labour voters, and Labour Leavers are more likely to vote UKIP and Tory than Labour Remoaners likely to vote for parties other than Labour. Of course, Corbyn DID actually want Brexit, and that's what he campaigned for in the many times he had opportunities to slag off the EU pre-Leader.

So he should do what's right not what is expedient, partly his fault we are in this mess in the first place with his piss-poor 6 or 7 out of 10 half-hearted low-key support for Remain, late in the day. Even the assassination of one of his own MP's couldn't get him to fire up about the lying Leave campaigners.

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Silas
post 27th January 2017, 01:11 PM
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The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that
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Steve201
post 27th January 2017, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jan 27 2017, 12:41 PM) *
Absolutely they will, especially if they represent an area that voted. 100% of the country didnt vote for Brexit so why Corbyn is so obsessed with attempting to show 100% of MP's should vote for it is bizarre when it can be argued it's vital for the nations interest to get it right.

Either way they will piss off a legion of Labour voters, and Labour Leavers are more likely to vote UKIP and Tory than Labour Remoaners likely to vote for parties other than Labour. Of course, Corbyn DID actually want Brexit, and that's what he campaigned for in the many times he had opportunities to slag off the EU pre-Leader.

So he should do what's right not what is expedient, partly his fault we are in this mess in the first place with his piss-poor 6 or 7 out of 10 half-hearted low-key support for Remain, late in the day. Even the assassination of one of his own MP's couldn't get him to fire up about the lying Leave campaigners.


66% of Labour voters voted to remain - the ones who voted Brexit are hardly all Corbyns fault!
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Steve201
post 27th January 2017, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM) *
The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that


BLAME CAMERON!!
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Long Dong Silver
post 27th January 2017, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM) *
The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that


100% THIS!
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Long Dong Silver
post 27th January 2017, 09:39 PM
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Just we will re-enter with diminished power and respect and also the inability to pick and choose as we have right now. We literally had the best of both worlds in the EU and led it along with France and Germany.
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Silas
post 27th January 2017, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 27 2017, 09:33 PM) *
BLAME CAMERON!!

There's a special place in hell for that snivelling pig-shagging c**t.
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Qassändra
post 27th January 2017, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 27 2017, 12:42 AM) *
I know which is why I raised the issue about why he is having a 3-line whip!

Diane Abbot spoke well (for once) on QT arguing well that they were trying to respect the referendum result.

There's no way he'd have stuck to that line if the referendum had been on welfare.

I can't say I envy him the decision, but Labour wouldn't be in anywhere near as perilous a position if they'd had an at least vaguely regarded leader to begin with. It's the combination of his diabolical reputation with the public and the (very admittedly) brutal cleaving of the electorate that's got it to this stage.

----

I'm absolutely not a fan whatsoever of David Miliband and think he was exceptionally overrated, but christ - we wouldn't be here if only the aloof prick had deigned to talk to a few more backbenchers personally for second preferences. I don't think he'd have won in 2015, but there's a very good argument that the SNP surge wouldn't have happened (ironically for "branch office" reasons - there's no way DM would have allowed Iain Gray to lead Scottish Labour into the 2011 election. Just enough seats to prevent an SNP majority = no independence referendum = no SNP surge in 2015 = minority Tory or Labour government now. I'd take that.)

(sorry, it's one of those evenings.)
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Silas
post 27th January 2017, 11:16 PM
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You forget that the Green's are Pro-Indy and have more than a single token seat in Scotland. Like now, being just under a majority would still get indyref through with Green support.
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Long Dong Silver
post 27th January 2017, 11:18 PM
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I am a huge Corbyn fan, but with the media on his case, unless we're getting massively OFF opinion polls and coming for another Trump-style win, then we are in a One Party State.
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Qassändra
post 28th January 2017, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 11:16 PM) *
You forget that the Green's are Pro-Indy and have more than a single token seat in Scotland. Like now, being just under a majority would still get indyref through with Green support.

They only had two seats in 2011 though. A lot of SNP constituency gains in 2011 were with narrow majorities - Labour would've only needed to hold on to about 800 votes against the SNP in this scenario in each of about eight or nine seats (when accounting for recompensating gains for the SNP on the list as a result of the losses) for there to have not been a pro-independence majority.
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Silas
post 28th January 2017, 11:27 PM
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The constituency vote for Labour was only off 0.5% v 2007
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Steve201
post 29th January 2017, 12:44 AM
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Corbyn is leader that's the fact and until you understand the reasons why it's Come to this centrists will never get back to where they were in 2007!
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Qassändra
post 29th January 2017, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 28 2017, 11:27 PM) *
The constituency vote for Labour was only off 0.5% v 2007

Yes, that doesn't really change that only a relatively small number of votes needed to be held by Labour vs the SNP for the pro-independence parties to not get a majority though. The constituency vote was only 0.5% down, but it was in part because the shift of voters from Labour to the SNP was disguised by the number that went from the Lib Dems to Labour. Similar to how Labour's vote in 2015 actually went up because of Lib Dem converts (who were distributed unevenly across the country), which disguised that a lot went to Ukip and the Tories.
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Popchartfreak
post 29th January 2017, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 29 2017, 12:44 AM) *
Corbyn is leader that's the fact and until you understand the reasons why it's Come to this centrists will never get back to where they were in 2007!


Corbyn won't make the next election as leader. The Unions are already making noises about his crap performance since the "Blairites" shut their mouths and they had no-one to villify. Grassroots Remoaners are also criticising and begging him to do the decent thing. To coin an old phrase, being criticised by Corbyn is like being savaged be a dead sheep.
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Steve201
post 29th January 2017, 10:54 PM
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I wasn't talking about Corbyn being leader I was talking about centrists vs the left - whether Corbyn or another is leader it doesn't matter.
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