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> OCC: "We will look into the way charts are compiled"
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The Hit Parade
post 14th March 2017, 10:24 AM
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In the interests of balance, I did think this was one of the better articles, even if I don't agree with it all (be warned, it includes a close-up photo of Chris Evans) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39265093
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sammy01
post 14th March 2017, 11:04 AM
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I think the solution is just to make it so that people can only count 1 streaming sale to a song each year. So yes we might still get a mass influx like this week but unless a whole bunch of new people streamed Ed's album the next week they would all be gone from the chart. It would make the charts move fast again and would put emphasis back on an 'impact date' for a single, the week you want everyone to count their first and only streaming sale towards the singles chart.

Keep the album chart as is, so after people have used their 1 stream for a song, unless it is a stand alone single all the streams for it from that person then count towards its album streams.
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365
post 14th March 2017, 12:15 PM
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I think 1 stream sale max is a bit much, but I think they should change the cap to 10 a week instead of day.
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Bjork
post 14th March 2017, 12:36 PM
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Even better
Stop counting once you reach the
Equivalent to 1 sale
(Not sure how many streams is that)
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Davidson
post 14th March 2017, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE(Bjork @ Mar 14 2017, 12:36 PM) *
Even better
Stop counting once you reach the
Equivalent to 1 sale
(Not sure how many streams is that)


I like that idea tbh but I don't think it would make much of a difference seeing as 100 streams = 1 sale. I'm guessing most people haven't streamed a single Ed album track 100 times yet so he would still be doing as well as he is.
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danG
post 14th March 2017, 12:46 PM
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remember it's 150 streams to the sale now.

I doubt it would make any noticeable difference as most people don't stream songs that many times.
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Popchartfreak
post 14th March 2017, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE(The Hit Parade @ Mar 13 2017, 03:01 PM) *
...How would you do that without reading people's minds?


as in playlist listens that Spotify etc create. They have the technology to split the listens if they had the will. Everybody knows it's a passive listening experience just like radio, something in the background while you cook or do homework. That isn't a measurement of "popularity" in any sense any more than listening to the buzzjack song contest tracks is a measurement of popularity (at least initially until one playlists them oneself) it's a measurement of curiosity... ohmy.gif
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danG
post 14th March 2017, 12:58 PM
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It's not in Spotify's interests so remove so-called passive listens of their curated playlists from the chart, so I very much doubt that will happen.
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Popchartfreak
post 14th March 2017, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE(sammy01 @ Mar 14 2017, 11:04 AM) *
I think the solution is just to make it so that people can only count 1 streaming sale to a song each year. So yes we might still get a mass influx like this week but unless a whole bunch of new people streamed Ed's album the next week they would all be gone from the chart. It would make the charts move fast again and would put emphasis back on an 'impact date' for a single, the week you want everyone to count their first and only streaming sale towards the singles chart.

Keep the album chart as is, so after people have used their 1 stream for a song, unless it is a stand alone single all the streams for it from that person then count towards its album streams.


I agree. People who spend money (like myself) have to keep buying the same song week after week for the same impact. When spotify measures the listening habits of people who pay nothing at all it just distorts the charts into the monoculture turgid mess that it's become. As I've said before, least varied charts ever, slowest moving charts ever, and it becomes self-fulfilling that interest generally wanes. Once the Ed hooha dies down, a shortlived boost, it'll be back to usual "meh"....
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Brightest Blue
post 14th March 2017, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(danG @ Mar 14 2017, 12:46 PM) *
remember it's 150 streams to the sale now.

I doubt it would make any noticeable difference as most people don't stream songs that many times.

This. For example I've had Lorde's 'Green Light' on repeat since release and there is no way that I've streamed it 100 times, let alone 150.
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Popchartfreak
post 14th March 2017, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE(danG @ Mar 14 2017, 12:58 PM) *
It's not in Spotify's interests so remove so-called passive listens of their curated playlists from the chart, so I very much doubt that will happen.


oh they would fight it tooth and nail because they still don't make a profit and are desperate to increase income before they go onto the stock market (which keeps getting put back each year), far too powerful for what they actually DO for the music biz (which is nothing, except give a lump sum to the majors to keep them happy).

radio is far more important and has zero say on the charts in the way Spotify does, even though 20 million tune in to the BBC alone and they are in the biz of publicising new acts and records (so that people can buy them), and not to mention the charts themselves.
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soundman
post 14th March 2017, 01:49 PM
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A potential way to resolve the problem with the chart:

Introduce a new album tracks chart. The album tracks chart will list the most popular streaming album tracks. For example, all of Sheeran's album tracks will be at the top of that chart. However, his single release - Shape of You - won't be in that chart, it will be in the official Top 40 Singles chart.

Spotify will also introduce a new album tracks chart so Spotify users can see what album tracks are popular.

If the OCC and Spotify were to agree on this new album tracks chart I think the singles chart can retain its legitimacy. The record industry, the OCC and Spotify (and other major streaming apps) would need to come up with a strict rule regarding what is a single. And the single would not be eligible for the album tracks chart. For example, Shape of You would never chart in the album tracks chart.

You should end up with a pure singles chart and a new album tracks chart. Depending on your preference you can choose to follow the singles chart or the album tracks chart or both.


This post has been edited by soundman: 14th March 2017, 01:55 PM
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howiet1971
post 14th March 2017, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE(soundman @ Mar 14 2017, 01:49 PM) *
A potential way to resolve the problem with the chart:

Introduce a new album tracks chart. The album tracks chart will list the most popular streaming album tracks. For example, all of Sheeran's album tracks will be at the top of that chart. However, his single release - Shape of You - won't be in that chart, it will be in the official Top 40 Singles chart.

Spotify will also introduce a new album tracks chart so Spotify users can see what album tracks are popular.

If the OCC and Spotify were to agree on this new album tracks chart I think the singles chart can retain its legitimacy. The record industry, the OCC and Spotify (and other major streaming apps) would need to come up with a strict rule regarding what is a single. And the single would not be eligible for the album tracks chart. For example, Shape of You would never chart in the album tracks chart.

You should end up with a pure singles chart and a new album tracks chart. Depending on your preference you can choose to follow the singles chart or the album tracks chart or both.


Finally.... someone with a great idea!!!!! cheer.gif
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danG
post 14th March 2017, 03:01 PM
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but then you'd have the situation of Galway Girl, the 2nd most popular song in the UK right now, not being in the chart because it's not an official single.
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Tombo
post 14th March 2017, 03:02 PM
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Sorry, that is awful. We don't need that chart.

I think capping 4 abum tracks per album to be chart eligible.

Or renaming the chart the "trending" chart as it shows what tracks are trending
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Supercell
post 14th March 2017, 04:08 PM
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I always thought limiting a stream to 150 then not being counted again on an individual basis was a good idea but I doubt many people would listen to a song 150 times and even if they did it would take weeks. So they'd have to drastically reduce that number for it to reflect peoples listening habits.

That BBC article suggests adding airplay, if they think its bad now adding airplay will make it a million times worse.

I think from the sounds of it they should be looking at some of the methods that are used in countries where streaming is virtually the sole contributor to the charts and how they differentiate album streaming as opposed to individual tracks. The OCC imo have been lazy about the whole streaming scenario and seems like they are scared of having weekly single sales fall to the depths they were in the 2000s and are propping them up with inflated streaming sales. If anywhere needs any extra sales being pumped into it, its the albums market.

Also I think with playlists they should only be counted in two ways. Firstly individual playlists that people have created for their own personal use should be counted, Secondly the only other playlist that should count should be the Hot Hits playlist which is updated with new songs every week. All other playlists shouldn't be counted towards the chart and streaming should be merited from the artist's page/catalogue.


This post has been edited by Supercell: 14th March 2017, 04:14 PM
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Tombo
post 14th March 2017, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(Supercell @ Mar 14 2017, 04:08 PM) *
I always thought limiting a stream to 150 then not being counted again on an individual basis was a good idea but I doubt many people would listen to a song 150 times and even if they did it would take weeks. So they'd have to drastically reduce that number for it to reflect peoples listening habits.

That BBC article suggests adding airplay, if they think its bad now adding airplay will make it a million times worse.

I think from the sounds of it they should be looking at some of the methods that are used in countries where streaming is virtually the sole contributor to the charts and how they differentiate album streaming as opposed to individual tracks. The OCC imo have been lazy about the whole streaming scenario and seems like they are scared of having weekly single sales fall to the depths they were in the 2000s and are propping them up with inflated streaming sales. If anywhere needs any extra sales being pumped into it, its the albums market.

Also I think with playlists they should only be counted in two ways. Firstly individual playlists that people have created for their own personal use should be counted, Secondly the only other playlist that should count should be the Hot Hits playlist which is updated with new songs every week. All other playlists shouldn't be counted towards the chart and streaming should be merited from the artist's page/catalogue.


but isn't hot hits where people pay for their song to have a high position??

What do they actually do in countries where streaming is high?
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howiet1971
post 14th March 2017, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE(danG @ Mar 14 2017, 03:01 PM) *
but then you'd have the situation of Galway Girl, the 2nd most popular song in the UK right now, not being in the chart because it's not an official single.



Uh yep! Please read what he said..... it would go into an album tracks chart.
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danG
post 14th March 2017, 05:27 PM
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I don't like the idea of album tracks having their own chart personally. Galway Girl is selling many downloads and streams as a single even though the label haven't officially declared it a 'single', that should be reflected in the singles chart. Similarly with Ed's other popular album tracks.
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DanChartFan
post 14th March 2017, 06:23 PM
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I do see what the OCC people mean though. Look at this week's sales chart, or the download chart, and you'll see that Ed's tracks are being downloaded individually enough times to enter the top 50, so even if we go back to a pure sales chart there would still be a sort of mini invasion anyway. If you define a single as only the tracks that have been paid for individually enough times, and only add streaming to those (with perhaps a separate album tracks chart, or just all other streams counting to the album chart), then the invasion would only get stronger, even if you attempt to minimise streaming's impact by not counting individual track streams from a complete stream of an album. In any case I suspect that only a relatively few people streamed the entire album from start to finish, just as people who buy a CD album don't necessarily play the whole thing every time they listen to it (and even if they started off doing so may well routinely skip a track or tracks once they get to know the album and what they do/don't like).

I also don't think that those playlists are the entire problem, as they are just the industry trying to control what gets into the chart in the same that it did with prominent walls of discounted new entries in the 90s, or multiple formats or free gifts for a physical release etc, though admittedly those were eventually tackled in the chart rules, but they didn't make new chart rules for them as soon as the first instance of heavy discounting, excessive multi-formatting or overly generous gifting was noticed.

I don't like the idea of forcing the record companies to nominate a small or fixed number of tracks to be singles, but I do wonder if it should maybe it should be the case that the album tracks have to be paired up, since lesser tracks would be the b-sides in the olden days. If record companies had to tell the OCC which tracks went with which I think that would allow the record company some flexibility to change the official singles to reflect any unforeseen popularity of an album track, whilst preventing a flood of tracks. The trick for the record company would be to ensure that they either paired up the ones they expect to be most popular with ones they thought wouldn't do so well, in order to ensure each of the better tracks can chart separately, or else if they think that only a couple of tracks would ever be popular (or the artist does not have the material for a full album) then they could pair them together as one single to maximise the one single's chart impact but thereby lose the possibility of marketing that second popular track as a separate chart-eligible single. I think this pairing up of album tracks would actually hark back to the early days of the album, when it was literally a paper album (think photo album or whatever) into which multiple shellac discs (i.e. singles) would be bound, yet it could also be a better way of defining what a single is in the modern download and stream led era. I think no-one would be able to complain about unfair advantages as all tracks would be part of a pair and all artists/labels would have had the chance to decide their pairing strategy in the first place, to either try for multiple hits from the album, or maximise the impact of the best 1 or 2 tracks instead.


This post has been edited by DanChartFan: 14th March 2017, 06:28 PM
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