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> EU/Brexit Discussion Thread III, Here we go again.
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vidcapper
post May 24 2018, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 12:52 PM) *
2. Never blindingly obvious what your views are on any subject because you regularly say you have right to withhold them and not make any comments. Besides which you are consistently contradictory. See (1) above for an example. Or reading the daily mail a paper owned by an EU-dwelling billionaire, or supporting Farage, a public-school millionaire who keeps bankrupting himself through his own uselessness. Trusting millionaires seems to be a "thing"....


I don't get why Brexit is such a big deal to you anyway - according to your profile, you are 60, so it's not like you have long term career prospects depending on the EU? unsure.gif
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Popchartfreak
post May 24 2018, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 02:15 PM) *
I don't get why Brexit is such a big deal to you anyway - according to your profile, you are 60, so it's not like you have long term career prospects depending on the EU? unsure.gif


I don't get why you even bothered to vote it's not as if you'll be alive to enjoy it in 30 years when the economy recovers.

I'm still working thanks, and seeing my salary decline against inflation for a decade, while also caring for 2 parents with no state aid whatsoever, thanks and I have many many nephews nieces great nephews and great nieces who will suffer thanks to the selfish old gits who havent a clue about reality.

Plus, hey I'm not a selfish c**t, I do things because I think it'll be best for other people and how it affects me is of less importance.
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vidcapper
post May 25 2018, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 09:48 PM) *
I don't get why you even bothered to vote it's not as if you'll be alive to enjoy it in 30 years when the economy recovers.


touché

QUOTE
I'm still working thanks, and seeing my salary decline against inflation for a decade, while also caring for 2 parents with no state aid whatsoever, thanks and I have many many nephews nieces great nephews and great nieces who will suffer thanks to the selfish old gits who havent a clue about reality.
My parents are both gone, years ago, but to you I suppose they would've fallen into the category of 'selfish old gits who haven't a clue about reality'...

Also, I too have loads of nieces/nephews/great nieces/nephews - and their sake is one of the main reasons I voted *Leave*!

QUOTE
Plus, hey I'm not a selfish c**t, I do things because I think it'll be best for other people and how it affects me is of less importance.


That's sums up the motivation behind my previous sentence.
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Popchartfreak
post May 25 2018, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 06:56 AM) *
touché

My parents are both gone, years ago, but to you I suppose they would've fallen into the category of 'selfish old gits who haven't a clue about reality'...

Also, I too have loads of nieces/nephews/great nieces/nephews - and their sake is one of the main reasons I voted *Leave*!
That's sums up the motivation behind my previous sentence.


My parents would not and never have supported Brexit. Stop supposing what I would say about people who arent alive and how they would hypothetically vote. I'm talking specifically about those who had information at their fingertips and did it anyway, or the racists. The idiots who just didnt understand what was going on and got taken in by the lies and propaganda is much more forgivable.

You have a great way of showing support for a generation of young people who don't WANT you to speak for them and like me see their rights being taken away. Thanks, on their behalf, for believing you know what's good for them. You don't. I'm older than you, as you have pointed out, and much much wiser, sonny.

If you TRULY believed that a tanking economy, no deals, not much in the way of alternative national incomes and people struggling to make a living would be solved by voting for something that makes things much worse for an untold number of years you are self-deluded and using that reasoning as an excuse given the amount of evidence. Unless you DO actually realise now how damaging it has been, will be, and are trying to rewrite your reasons for voting for it (which you have claimed were just to be rid of the "undemocratic" EU political system, given you have never provided any evidence of any real way in which young people would benefit.

We have lots of young British people on Buzzjack. Please feel free to explain to them now how your vote has definitely made their future much brighter than it otherwise would have been, and let them have a right to reply to your suggestions. I will say nothing, just to be fair, being just as old and wizened as you.
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vidcapper
post May 25 2018, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 25 2018, 08:33 AM) *
My parents would not and never have supported Brexit. Stop supposing what I would say about people who arent alive and how they would hypothetically vote. I'm talking specifically about those who had information at their fingertips and did it anyway, or the racists. The idiots who just didnt understand what was going on and got taken in by the lies and propaganda is much more forgivable.


Well, I know my late mother would have voted for Brexit if she'd lived until 2016 - she expressed Eurosceptic views regularly, yet she was very far from being racist.

QUOTE
You have a great way of showing support for a generation of young people who don't WANT you to speak for them and like me see their rights being taken away. Thanks, on their behalf, for believing you know what's good for them. You don't. I'm older than you, as you have pointed out, and much much wiser, sonny.
They had the same chance to vote in the Referendum as I did.

QUOTE
If you TRULY believed that a tanking economy, no deals, not much in the way of alternative national incomes and people struggling to make a living would be solved by voting for something that makes things much worse for an untold number of years you are self-deluded and using that reasoning as an excuse given the amount of evidence. Unless you DO actually realise now how damaging it has been, will be,


Unlike you, I will wait for *facts*, not partisan Remainer speculation.

Also, perhaps you can show me a law which requires people to vote selflessly?

QUOTE
We have lots of young British people on Buzzjack. Please feel free to explain to them now how your vote has definitely made their future much brighter than it otherwise would have been, and let them have a right to reply to your suggestions.


What we have here is a self-selecting group of people who are far more interested in politics than the general public - on that basis you cannot prove they are representative of young people in general though.


This post has been edited by vidcapper: May 25 2018, 08:50 AM
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Popchartfreak
post May 25 2018, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 08:50 AM) *
Well, I know my late mother would have voted for Brexit if she'd lived until 2016 - she expressed Eurosceptic views regularly, yet she was very far from being racist.

They had the same chance to vote in the Referendum as I did.
Unlike you, I will wait for *facts*, not partisan Remainer speculation.
What we have here is a self-selecting group of people who are far more interested in politics than the general public - on that basis you cannot prove they are representative of young people in general though.


Never claimed your mother was anything. My mother loves people, even with advanced alzheimers she still loves people and warmly welcomes everyone. My dad didnt believe a word of the liars who lied about Brexit. He's 81 and was one of the older generation who overwhelmingly voted to join the Common Market for safer more prosperous Europe. Mission accomplished, but taken for granted by their stroppy children.

They were outvoted (just) due to lies and propaganda and illegal activity from the Leave campaign. Now the older generation has popped off over the 2 years since we can have another vote on the final deal minus all the lies and propaganda and see for sure what everyone wants. Given your comment about waiting for facts (the failing economy and other evidence since the day after the referendum obviously having passed you by) I look forward to your support on a final vote on whether to accept the final deal or remain in Europe. Based on FACTS.

Never claimed young people here were representative of anything. If your case for voting for them on their future behalf (which I note you have failed to do for at least 2 years) because you know whats best for them, then it should be a piece of piss to provide evidence to that effect. And if your evidence is strong then it should stand up to scrutiny.

Of course if your argument is based on "cos I said so" then excuse me for thinking you have no case whatsoever and just enjoy repeating the same old non-arguments endlessly.

While steadfastly refusing to give anyone a final vote once we have FACTS. If FACTS are irrelevant to anyone looking into the future well-being of the UK, then that person is not interested in democracy, they are only interested in getting their own way. For one, I'm perfectly happy to abide by a final vote on the final deal free from lies and propaganda, with no more moaning whingeing or couldabeens because everyone will have had an informed concrete thing to vote on. Not vague wishful thinkings.

How about you?

Thought not.



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vidcapper
post May 25 2018, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 25 2018, 09:52 AM) *
They were outvoted (just) due to lies and propaganda and illegal activity from the Leave campaign.


I've never denied there were lies & propaganda involved - but that has probably been the case in every voting campaign since the ancient Greeks first invented democracy! tongue.gif

My contentions are that,

1. The Remain campaign wasn't as squeaky clean as they's like us to believe.

2. Thay any chicanery was not enough to change the overall result.

QUOTE
Of course if your argument is based on "cos I said so" then excuse me for thinking you have no case whatsoever and just enjoy repeating the same old non-arguments endlessly.
Since you've already made that prejudgement about me, nothing I could say would change your mind.

QUOTE
While steadfastly refusing to give anyone a final vote once we have FACTS. If FACTS are irrelevant to anyone looking into the future well-being of the UK, then that person is not interested in democracy, they are only interested in getting their own way. For one, I'm perfectly happy to abide by a final vote on the final deal free from lies and propaganda, with no more moaning whingeing or couldabeens because everyone will have had an informed concrete thing to vote on. Not vague wishful thinkings.


What sort of 2nd vote did you have in mind - a repeat of the original question, or an accept/reject one on the deal?
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Suedehead2
post May 25 2018, 02:45 PM
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Meanwhile, the government are still busily filling the "You couldn't make it up" files.

Several years ago the EU decided to develop its own sat-nav system rather than relying on the Americans. You might call it taking back control. The UK government wasn't particularly keen (after all, we wouldn't want to upset the Americans) but eventually agreed to it. However, the UK government did insist that rules were put in place to restrict access for non-EU members. Guess what? The UK government now wants to have full access to the system even if we leave the EU. They have even threatened to develop a separate British system if the EU don't play ball. I think we can imagine how that might work out.

And there's more. Some people in the Remain camp warned that the UK's participation in the European Arrest Warrant scheme (under which hundreds of alleged criminals have been returned to Britain to face trial and hundreds of others have gone in the opposite direction) might be endangered if we leave. That, of course, was dismissed as part of Project Fear. Guess what? The EU are reminding the UK government that the EAW is specifically an EU scheme.

As others have pointed out, after years of being an EU member with a whole load of opt-outs, the UK now wants to be a non-member with a whole load of opt-ins (even though Mayhem had said that Leave meant leaving all EU bodies).

Oh, and there's another one. The EU are currently taking action against the UK government for failing to apply air quality standards. Gove and Hunt have responded by saying that, outside the EU, we should strict standards. Leaving aside the fact that there is nothing to stop the UK (or any other EU state) adopting standards that go beyond the EU minimum, wouldn't it be a good idea to make sure we abide by the current standards first?
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vidcapper
post May 25 2018, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 25 2018, 03:45 PM) *
Meanwhile, the government are still busily filling the "You couldn't make it up" files.

Several years ago the EU decided to develop its own sat-nav system rather than relying on the Americans. You might call it taking back control. The UK government wasn't particularly keen (after all, we wouldn't want to upset the Americans) but eventually agreed to it. However, the UK government did insist that rules were put in place to restrict access for non-EU members. Guess what? The UK government now wants to have full access to the system even if we leave the EU. They have even threatened to develop a separate British system if the EU don't play ball. I think we can imagine how that might work out.


I'm assuming some of our money is invested in this, so we should either get access to it, or a refund.
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Suedehead2
post May 25 2018, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 03:54 PM) *
I'm assuming some of our money is invested in this, so we should either get access to it, or a refund.

Why? The government has chosen to walk out of the EU and its projects. Leave means leave as the hardliners constantly remind us.
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Anita Hanjaab
post May 25 2018, 03:55 PM
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Surely whatever a red white and blue Brexit is means that the UK will have its own British systems and not EU ones? Not very efficient, I know, but then neither is a tiny island outside a continent-wide club all by itself relying on Donald Trump and arms sales to the mideast
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Silas
post May 25 2018, 08:10 PM
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Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"
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Suedehead2
post May 25 2018, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 25 2018, 09:10 PM) *
Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"

I suggest you follow Tom Brake o Twitter. He does this every day.
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vidcapper
post May 26 2018, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 25 2018, 04:14 PM) *
Why? The government has chosen to walk out of the EU and its projects. Leave means leave as the hardliners constantly remind us.


I'll tell you why - they're expecting a 'divorce' settlement from us on the basis of lost income, so why shouldn't our settlement allow for our investment in ongoing projects that we will now get no benefit from? Neither side can both have their cake & eat it.

On a side issue, it should be pointed out that even EU countries are split on the issue of the EU sat-nav system - some of them support us.


This post has been edited by vidcapper: May 26 2018, 06:04 AM
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vidcapper
post May 26 2018, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 25 2018, 09:10 PM) *
Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"


Well there's the 'slight inconvenience' of ongoing public support for Brexit, which is not going to go away - and we have numbers on our side unless/until proven otherwise.

IF you think the gov't is unpopular *now*, just imagine what it would be like if they reneged on the result of a vote that they themselves called!

Maybe some of you might think the resulting civil unrest would be worth the price, but IMO that would be worse than any conceivable fallout from Brexit!
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Silas
post May 26 2018, 08:19 AM
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That is the funniest thing you’ve ever posted! Civil unrest. Loooooooooool sure jan.

They’d get over it once the conditions that lead to their vote were rectified (harsh austerity cuts to education and local services giving a false impression that we’re full or that migration is breaking us)
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vidcapper
post May 26 2018, 09:27 AM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 26 2018, 09:19 AM) *
That is the funniest thing you’ve ever posted! Civil unrest. Loooooooooool sure jan.


Who is Jan? unsure.gif

You seriously think we Leavers will sit back & do nothing if the gov't pissed all over our democracy? huh.gif

QUOTE
They’d get over it once the conditions that lead to their vote were rectified (harsh austerity cuts to education and local services giving a false impression that we’re full or that migration is breaking us)


And you think *I'm* naive?
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Silas
post May 26 2018, 09:49 AM
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Yes i do. Gamon doesn't protest, they have heart attacks on question time
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vidcapper
post May 26 2018, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 26 2018, 10:49 AM) *
Gamon doesn't protest, they have heart attacks on question time


I have no idea what that means? unsure.gif
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Popchartfreak
post May 26 2018, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 11:36 AM) *
I've never denied there were lies & propaganda involved - but that has probably been the case in every voting campaign since the ancient Greeks first invented democracy! tongue.gif

My contentions are that,

1. The Remain campaign wasn't as squeaky clean as they's like us to believe.

2. Thay any chicanery was not enough to change the overall result.

Since you've already made that prejudgement about me, nothing I could say would change your mind.
What sort of 2nd vote did you have in mind - a repeat of the original question, or an accept/reject one on the deal?


1. Then give examples. I can give shitloads of lies as examples from almost everything claimed by all of the leading Brexiters during the campaign, after the campaign, and even now with the facts staring them in the face.

2. Important decisions should not be decided by who tells the best lies. That way lies insanity and disaster.

3. Clearly lies and corruption did influence the result, it was very close, and if telling the truth would have been more than enough to win the argument then the Leave campaign would have been satisfied to do that. Your logic as usual is flawed and self-contradictory. We can resolve this argument (ie your flawed opinion) by having another referendum on the final deal. You don't want to because you know LIES DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE RESULT. Stop pretending otherwise, or just accept the logic of another vote to prove once and for evermore that lies don't make any difference.

4. I don't need to make pre-judgements about you. I have many many many previous examples of the exact arguments you consistently use. And those you vacillate between when it suits you.

5. You know exactly what sort of vote I mean Ive said it dozens of times and this thread specifically says not to repeat previous arguments. Is your memory really THAT bad? (Cos that would explain quite a lot about how you view the world)
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