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> The lovely discussion of all things EU and/or Brexit, Part V
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blacksquare
post 24th January 2019, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE(*Tim @ Jan 24 2019, 10:47 AM) *
And still no answer has been given


It never will.
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Popchartfreak
post 24th January 2019, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 24 2019, 06:23 AM) *
So in other words, you're not actually interested in knowing why I voted for Brexit - that's useful to know...


oh please, Ive been trying to get you to put forward genuine cases for Brexshit for 2 years in vain, you always resort to a huffy, "I'm entitled to my views" when I show up your claims for what they are - such as your rubbish VAT one which I clearly recall Phil correcting excellently not months ago, yet your memory is so poor you come back and repeat the same thing!

On other comments, yes I also agree with Dr Blind about please not making personal comments keep it to the issues - and I also have a sibling who voted opposite to me, and we have had two very loud arguments about Brexit, one of them in the street to the horror of the rest of the family who chose to record it all for posterity....

So we agree to disagree now and don't talk about it!

Re the EU, everything they have passed has been agreed democratically by the UK government, or we have opted out. It wasn't forced on us. We had a vote in 1975, I'm quite happy to keep with that one because we made up our minds then and there is no need for another vote even thoughsome were too young to vote then and loads of people who voted are dead - because that seems to be the argument against another vote. If people haven't changed their mind then why worry about asking them formally and making sure that everyone knows and got what they voted for?

Errr BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AND BREXITEERS KNOW IT TO BE TRUE.
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Silas
post 24th January 2019, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 24 2019, 11:00 AM) *
I said political *independence* - and besides, a comment like 'Political independence means absolutely F.A. - it’s a meaningless sound bite.' is disrespectful to all those people who died in various wars defending this country!

Let me be perfectly clear when I say this. I am from a military family, I was born in a military hospital on a military base during the military occupation of West Germany. Dragging them into your weak argument to try and add some weight to it is highly disrespectful

It is a meaningless soundbite because you and others who scream it at the top of your lungs can not define it or show evidence as to why you think we do not have it. Ergo a meaningless soundbite.
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crazy chris
post 24th January 2019, 02:35 PM
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Okay I lied. Not everyone I know said they voted out because of immigration. One dog-walker said he hates the EU rule that says we can't sell bent bananas or can only sell them as seconds. So that's why Adrian voted OUT. Would anyone like to take that point up then. I also don't care if they're straight or bent but the EU does. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Common Sense: 24th January 2019, 02:35 PM
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Suedehead2
post 24th January 2019, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jan 24 2019, 02:35 PM) *
Okay I lied. Not everyone I know said they voted out because of immigration. One dog-walker said he hates the EU rule that says we can't sell bent bananas or can only sell them as seconds. So that's why Adrian voted OUT. Would anyone like to take that point up then. I also don't care if they're straight or bent but the EU does. biggrin.gif

Except it doesn’t.
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vidcapper
post 24th January 2019, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(*Tim @ Jan 24 2019, 10:47 AM) *
And still no answer has been given


All of you Remainers must surely realise that, the more you dismiss Leavers reasons for voting Leave, the more fixed we become in our determination to make sure Brexit happens - in short, we deeply resent the implication that we are 'brainwashed simpletons'!

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*Tim
post 24th January 2019, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 24 2019, 04:08 PM) *
All of you Remainers must surely realise that, the more you dismiss Leavers reasons for voting Leave, the more fixed we become in our determination to make sure Brexit happens - in short, we deeply resent the implication that we are 'brainwashed simpletons'!

I am simply asking for your reasonig behind the statement that you want political independence. I fail to see how my questions have been dismissive. I have asked you several times, yet you have failed to give me an answer as to why you think the EU is limiting the political independence of the UK. This leads many to think that you indeed are brainwashed and will take loes for facts.

So once again. Enlighten me. Give me your arguments. Don't reply with a "I WANT THIS" but give me actual examples of the EU limiting the UK. I dare you


(Also "you remainers". As you may know I am from mainland Europe. We'll be fine with or without y'all. The union is stronger with y'all but still strong enough to overcome this setback with ease. The arguments of leavers are making me feel less sorry for the UK, cause in 90% of the time they hold no weight or truth to them.

Good lucking booking them trade deals they're speaking off though. I'm sure the months if not years of WTO negotiations will do the UK well and get y'all better trade deals than with the EU)
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Silas
post 24th January 2019, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jan 24 2019, 03:35 PM) *
Okay I lied. Not everyone I know said they voted out because of immigration. One dog-walker said he hates the EU rule that says we can't sell bent bananas or can only sell them as seconds. So that's why Adrian voted OUT. Would anyone like to take that point up then. I also don't care if they're straight or bent but the EU does. biggrin.gif

Utter rubbish like that is the reason for this blog: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdo.../euromyths.html
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T Boy
post 24th January 2019, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 24 2019, 03:08 PM) *
All of you Remainers must surely realise that, the more you dismiss Leavers reasons for voting Leave, the more fixed we become in our determination to make sure Brexit happens - in short, we deeply resent the implication that we are 'brainwashed simpletons'!


And yet you said we’d been ‘brainwashed’ by PC universities so even if what you’re saying is true, you’re doing that same thing.

Digging your heels in just because someone disagrees with you is a child like tactic. You’ve basically said you stick to your views harder because people dismiss them, again with really explaining them. This suggests you no longer know what you really want and just that you want it.
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Suedehead2
post 24th January 2019, 06:27 PM
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The attitude of so many Leave voters (not just here) just helps to illustrate what a stupid idea the referendum was in the first place. In a parliamentary democracy MPs are accountable to the electorate. We can find out how they voted and ask them to explain why they voted the way they did. If we don't like their answer, we can vote against them.

By contrast, voters in a referendum are accountable to nobody. They can choose whether to explain their vote. If they wish, they can simply toss a coin to decide how to vote. If we don't like the way they voted, we can't do a lot about it. Decisions of this magnitude should be made by people who are accountable and who are at least under some obligation to explain their vote.
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TheSnake
post 25th January 2019, 12:55 AM
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I disagree, I think it was right that the issue was put to a referendum, but if opinion is shown to have changed considerably; ie. if all opinion polls show a clear Remain majority higher than the 4% difference in the first referendum, then there should be a second referendum.

This post has been edited by The Snake: 25th January 2019, 01:00 AM
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Iz 🌟
post 25th January 2019, 03:22 AM
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It was always wrong to put the issue to a referendum. I’ve held this opinion ever since Cameron announced the policy, but back then it was very hard to express why it was such a bad idea, as surely more democracy is good, right? Wrong, there’s a reason why most functioning democracies rarely make use of direct democracy and it is embarrassing that my birth country fell for the trap so hard while still insisting that actually the spikes at the bottom make for a comfortable reclining position.

Now there’s mountains of evidence as to why direct democracy is bad from the sheer fallout and clusterf*** that has been the Brexit victory. I only look to a second referendum as a possible way the country can haul itself out of this mess, and I’m not sure I can trust it to do that. I support the notion, but only because we’re in this deep.
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vidcapper
post 25th January 2019, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 24 2019, 06:27 PM) *
The attitude of so many Leave voters (not just here) just helps to illustrate what a stupid idea the referendum was in the first place. In a parliamentary democracy MPs are accountable to the electorate. We can find out how they voted and ask them to explain why they voted the way they did. If we don't like their answer, we can vote against them.

By contrast, voters in a referendum are accountable to nobody. They can choose whether to explain their vote. If they wish, they can simply toss a coin to decide how to vote. If we don't like the way they voted, we can't do a lot about it. Decisions of this magnitude should be made by people who are accountable and who are at least under some obligation to explain their vote.


There is some merit in your argument, but as long as we are stuck with FPTP, voting against them on issues where their views differ greatly from the population is pointless, as they just close ranks, sad.gif

QUOTE(The Snake @ Jan 25 2019, 12:55 AM) *
I disagree, I think it was right that the issue was put to a referendum, but if opinion is shown to have changed considerably; ie. if all opinion polls show a clear Remain majority higher than the 4% difference in the first referendum, then there should be a second referendum.


The problem with that is - polling just before the referendum suggested a Remain win, so how can we trust polls?

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vidcapper
post 25th January 2019, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jan 25 2019, 03:22 AM) *
It was always wrong to put the issue to a referendum. I’ve held this opinion ever since Cameron announced the policy, but back then it was very hard to express why it was such a bad idea, as surely more democracy is good, right? Wrong, there’s a reason why most functioning democracies rarely make use of direct democracy


Because if adopted widely, people would realise there is no longer any need for politicians? teresa.gif

As for whether we needed a Brexit referendum - refusing one would not have made the issue go away, and in all likelihood would have strengthened UKIP even further.
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crazy chris
post 25th January 2019, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE(The Snake @ Jan 25 2019, 12:55 AM) *
I disagree, I think it was right that the issue was put to a referendum, but if opinion is shown to have changed considerably; ie. if all opinion polls show a clear Remain majority higher than the 4% difference in the first referendum, then there should be a second referendum.



So if we have an election and a party wins and forms a majority goverernment but a year later the main opposition party is leading in the opinion polls should we re-run the election? NO. Of course not.
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Iz 🌟
post 25th January 2019, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 25 2019, 07:20 AM) *
Because if adopted widely, people would realise there is no longer any need for politicians? teresa.gif

As for whether we needed a Brexit referendum - refusing one would not have made the issue go away, and in all likelihood would have strengthened UKIP even further.


You are actually an anarchist? What successful nations have gotten by without politicians? Come on now. Deciding on democratic initiatives takes experience and expertise and as hopeless as the current government is, ostensibly that's their job. This situation couldn't be less of an advertisement for the success of direct democracy.

Quite, and if UKIP got enough support to get into Parliament and make it their mission statement to explore avenues of leaving the EU, fine. Let them do that. Let them spend years preparing and come up with a reasoned directive for leaving the EU that doesn't harm us.

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jan 25 2019, 09:18 AM) *
So if we have an election and a party wins and forms a majority goverernment but a year later the main opposition party is leading in the opinion polls should we re-run the election? NO. Of course not.


Snake's somewhat incorrect, that's not why we should run a referendum, just because Remain is leading in the polls. It's not as simple as polls can be misleading although they certainly can, but it isn't enough. To stretch your analogy, we have elections when the government has lost confidence of Parliament (ignoring the relatively new Fixed Term as it's just proving to be full of exceptions). So when MPs have lost confidence in their ability to deliver Brexit, they should not default to no deal but should, in the absence of any other option, put it to the people again, asking 'is this what you really want? We have failed to negotiate a deal that will pass Parliament. Do you want us to take this current deal that Parliament has voted down, or should we cancel it?'.
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vidcapper
post 25th January 2019, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jan 25 2019, 10:26 AM) *
You are actually an anarchist? What successful nations have gotten by without politicians? Come on now. Deciding on democratic initiatives takes experience and expertise and as hopeless as the current government is, ostensibly that's their job. This situation couldn't be less of an advertisement for the success of direct democracy.

Quite, and if UKIP got enough support to get into Parliament and make it their mission statement to explore avenues of leaving the EU, fine. Let them do that. Let them spend years preparing and come up with a reasoned directive for leaving the EU that doesn't harm us.


My comment on direct democracy was not meant to be taken entirely seriously, hence the smiley - but I do feel that one of the main problems with the democratic process is that it is SO BLOODY SLOW! sad.gif

As for UKIP getting into parliament and making a difference, that's almost impossible under the FPTP system - yet another aspect of the two-party system specifically designed to thwart change. Hence UKIP took the only course open to them - effectively circumventing parliament and appealing directly to the people.
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crazy chris
post 25th January 2019, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jan 25 2019, 10:26 AM) *
. Do you want us to take this current deal that Parliament has voted down, or should we cancel it?'.



I think MP's should have voted for the deal that May negotiated. It's not that bad. They'll regret not voting for it if we crash out with no deal.


This post has been edited by Common Sense: 25th January 2019, 12:17 PM
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vidcapper
post 25th January 2019, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jan 25 2019, 12:16 PM) *
I think MP's should have voted for the deal that May negotiated. It's not that bad. They'll regret not voting for it if we crash out with no deal.


They think they can bluff her into, either renegotiating, or holding a 2nd referendum - but it's a game of Russian Roulette they're playing!
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crazy chris
post 25th January 2019, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 25 2019, 02:38 PM) *
They think they can bluff her into, either renegotiating, or holding a 2nd referendum - but it's a game of Russian Roulette they're playing!



So how do you personally think this will end Vid. Do you think we'll crash out with no deal? I can see her asking the EU to extend A50. Can you? The Chancellor, speaking to Sky News this morning, seemed to suggest that no deal's a real possibilty now though.
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