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> The UK and transphobia
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Dircadirca
post 18th February 2023, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Feb 18 2023, 12:04 PM) *
The Hogwarts Legacy debacle is another great example. So many people in the wider left do not understand the ideas of coalition building, sticking together, or meeting people where they are. Some treat it all as a social competition to see who can be the most progressive and cast out anyone who does not meet their standards. Blasphemy, basically.

It's the easiest thing in the world to see that impugning people for playing ~popular game~ is not going to be very popular. I was talking with a friend last night who wants me to play it - good luck getting me to buy a game so close to release which is the real reason - and you know, I gave him the spiel about how JKR's awful as well after he asked specifically and fair, he's used to that, but I think if I'd said specifically I'm not playing the game because of that, which I'm not, it would have come off crazy. I'm surprised anyone tries it but EVERY TIME there is a piece of media that you could see is morally dodgy for whatever reason it's like for some their witch hunt sense is activated. It never works. Stop doing it. Let people come to their own conclusions.

If I, an enlightened centrist looking for a new political ideology had the choice between 'the left', who want me to walk on eggshells and stop having fun, or 'the right' who seemingly don't care, which one looks more attractive?

I am rambling but god the left or progressives or whichever big movement you like that will actually make things better for people just needs to learn how to recruit people and not put them off. It should be so easy! But instead every time big publicised discourse over whether it's morally okay to eat at the same table as meat-eaters or something happens and we look crazy.

Too true! So often the rhetoric is so poorly considered that it feels like a PSYOP to tarnish the left's reputation. When you're looking out for the minority you can't draw such a stark line in the sand because at the end of the day, the 'them' is so much larger than the 'us'. Empathy comes from seeing oneself in another, not from belittling people in the odd expectation that it'll somehow make them agree with you in order to get their approval. Who here has ever gotten into a band or artist because they saw someone trashing someone you liked for being inferior to this better, more obscure artist?

Furthermore, even from a utilitarian stand point, boycotting wizard game or anything to the effect is honestly counter-intuitive. Most of us who don't like JKR already weren't going to play it even if she weren't what she is now, so it's impossible for me to take away a sale that never was going to exist*. On the other hand, the only time this sort of thing is effective is incidentally when it's targeting the work of marginalised folk who either slip up, are perceived to slip up, or associate with someone who did, since they're the ones with the proactive audience. From that it's hard to want to associate with anyone who's willing to toss you aside forever for the power trip of a witch hunt. Self-cannibalisation at its finest.

*That being said here is a donation link for Mermaids UK for no reason in particular.
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Hugh Janus
post 18th February 2023, 02:41 PM
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Agreed, Iz!!! The "woke brigade", as the right calls them, is HURTING the progressive cause, by being too aggressive in hounding people for engaging with things as innocuous as a Harry Potter game that J.K had no part in! Playing a popilar new game does NOT make someone problematic.
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p a v
post 18th February 2023, 04:40 PM
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The amount of people being offended by their own communities who want justice and acknowledgment of every single member is quite staggering. It’s so counterproductive and just goes to show we need to get our shit together first before we are able to fight for our rights. That’s why we can never get a f***ing break.
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Smint
post 20th February 2023, 11:03 PM
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Not sure whether to post this here or in the Scotland thread but out of the three SNP leadership candidates to replace Nicola Sturgeon no fewer than 2 of them (Kate Forbes and Ash Regan) are against the challenge of the Section 35 order (UK government blocking the approval of Scotland's Gender recognition reform bill). Only Humza Yousaf (who didn't actually vote for equal marriage in the end) has given full support to trans rights. He is the favourite to win although the LGBT community are fearful of the media honing on this single issue during the contest and stirring up anti trans sentiment. And they will - look at the way most politicians are asked the "What is a Woman" gotcha question when interviewed?

Although there was encouragement during the well attended vigils for Brianna Ghey over the UK for the trans community and allies (although the Brum one was gate crashed by some anti LGBT thugs) it's incredibly difficult times. ,Just today, the current most prominent trans campaigner in the media, India Willoughby received horrific death threats, hand delivered by a Far Right group. I don't know what the answer is really. It really has hit home today, how the progressive young have so little power or say in this country despite being a huge proportion amount of people I know.
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Doctor Blind
post 2nd March 2023, 09:34 AM
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Ash Sarkar: "if the very word penis is that distressing for you, I'd recommend standing for a different ward - one not named Cockfosters" laugh.gif
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J00prstar
post 2nd March 2023, 06:25 PM
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I made a second complaint to the BBC recently for another article that contained implicit transphobia by uncritically reporting JK Rowling's words with no context given.

I think that kind of thing is what annoys me the most about the current wave of media transphobia - the fact that those who are paid to inform the public and be an authoritative voice are neglecting to include all kinds of information while still claiming to be 'neutral' or impartial.

When JK Rowling - or any like her - makes a claim that 'X bill will have Y result' an article about that shouldn't just repeat it uncritically as if that were true - if it isn't!

That is no better than reporting on celebrities' claims from yesteryear that vaccines will cause autism or that all gay people are child molesters, without providing any context whatsoever that that is extremely unlikely to be the case.

You don't get to claim to be impartial if the article just doesn't outright support a certain view, it only strongly implies it is correct. Grrrr.
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ta-ra*el~la
post 5th March 2023, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE(Smint @ Feb 20 2023, 11:03 PM) *
I don't know what the answer is really. It really has hit home today, how the progressive young have so little power or say in this country despite being a huge proportion amount of people I know.


If you're frustrated, let me offer this honest opinion: progressives should not have alienated liberals (broadly speaking, people who put freedom first) in the first place. Now's not too late to mend the relationship. Only with the support of liberals can LGBT rights be protected.
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Hugh Janus
post 5th March 2023, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Mar 5 2023, 05:32 PM) *
If you're frustrated, let me offer this honest opinion: progressives should not have alienated liberals (broadly speaking, people who put freedom first) in the first place. Now's not too late to mend the relationship. Only with the support of liberals can LGBT rights be protected.


WAT THR ACTUAL f*** NO!!!!

WROOOONG!!!

Neolibs PLAYING at politics are a joke. We need real leftists and progressives ro make change - and a LARGE part of that is economic and systemic - and not have the neolibs throw us a few bones now and then from their egregious eating piles.
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ta-ra*el~la
post 5th March 2023, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE(Amanda Hugginkis @ Mar 5 2023, 05:52 PM) *
Neolibs PLAYING at politics are a joke. We need real leftists and progressives ro make change


Look, I'm sincere about wanting liberals and leftists to be able to work together, at least to some extent. Without this happening, we will all get destroyed by Ron DeSantis and others like him. There's a lot at stake here.

And liberal doesn't mean neoliberal. I'm not too keen on capitalism, to be honest. I just don't like postmodern critical theory.


In other words, I don't have a problem with Bernie Sanders. I have a problem with the ideas of Foucault.


This post has been edited by ta-ra*el~la: 5th March 2023, 07:11 PM
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Hugh Janus
post 5th March 2023, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Mar 5 2023, 07:05 PM) *
Look, I'm sincere about wanting liberals and leftists to be able to work together, at least to some extent. Without this happening, we will all get destroyed by Ron DeSantis and others like him. There's a lot at stake here.

And liberal doesn't mean neoliberal. I'm not too keen on capitalism, to be honest. I just don't like postmodern critical theory.
In other words, I don't have a problem with Bernie Sanders. I have a problem with the ideas of Foucault.


So then why on earth would you support a centrist over Bernie Sanders?! Why?!
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ta-ra*el~la
post 6th March 2023, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE(Amanda Hugginkis @ Mar 5 2023, 07:48 PM) *
So then why on earth would you support a centrist over Bernie Sanders?! Why?!


Honestly it was because of Bernie's supporters. Bernie wasn't into postmodern theory but many of his supporters were, and I was a bit worried. Postmodern theory isn't compatible with free speech and freedom of conscience, and is therefore a dealbreaker for me. If the left would drop the postmodernism, I think us liberals (at least those not too keen on capitalism) would have a better relationship with the left.
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Iz 🌟
post 6th March 2023, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Mar 6 2023, 10:52 AM) *
Honestly it was because of Bernie's supporters. Bernie wasn't into postmodern theory but many of his supporters were, and I was a bit worried. Postmodern theory isn't compatible with free speech and freedom of conscience, and is therefore a dealbreaker for me. If the left would drop the postmodernism, I think us liberals (at least those not too keen on capitalism) would have a better relationship with the left.


I don't think you know what postmodern theory is, or at least whatever you've been told it is not the reality.

The relationship between liberals and the left is somewhat fraught of course, but obviously things tend to go better when one of the groups is in charge.
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Hugh Janus
post 6th March 2023, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Mar 6 2023, 10:52 AM) *
Honestly it was because of Bernie's supporters. Bernie wasn't into postmodern theory but many of his supporters were, and I was a bit worried. Postmodern theory isn't compatible with free speech and freedom of conscience, and is therefore a dealbreaker for me. If the left would drop the postmodernism, I think us liberals (at least those not too keen on capitalism) would have a better relationship with the left.


Okay, this is all starting ro sound a bit Glass Onion-y. Why are you repeating "postmodern theory", but giving no suggestion of why it is even RELEVANT? I assume you just did a lecture on Foucalt in uni? And puhhlease. That old "Bernie supporters" thing was rubbish spouted by MNBC journalists in an effort to diacredit his grassroots movement. Next!
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Hugh Janus
post 6th March 2023, 07:20 PM
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I'n still just AGOG at the brainless attempts at using postmodernism to attack leftism. This might be the dumbest rhing I've seen online all year - and I bet by December, this will STILL be top tier dumbf***ery! In the ssme post, she goes on to show how she swallowed MNSBC propaganda r.e his grassroots movement hook, line and stinker as well rotf.gif I CANNOT!
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Hugh Janus
post 6th March 2023, 07:23 PM
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How DARE the Bernie bros challenge neolibs online and want free healthcare for all sad.gif What SCOUNDRELS!
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Doctor Blind
post 6th March 2023, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Mar 5 2023, 05:32 PM) *
If you're frustrated, let me offer this honest opinion: progressives should not have alienated liberals (broadly speaking, people who put freedom first) in the first place. Now's not too late to mend the relationship. Only with the support of liberals can LGBT rights be protected.


I thought that liberals were, because of the name containing the actual word, socially liberal.

I agree that we need to put aside differences of opinion on many other issues to condemn the attacks on trans rights, but I fail to see how progressives have alienated liberals. It is the inaction and lack of a policy agenda on all of the issues that face our society from liberals that cause a lot of the anger and frustration that gets callously routed towards the most vulnerable minorities and feeds the culture wars that liberals baulk at.

Starmer's inaction is what is giving us the frankly disgusting Tory policy on immigration atm, as they look to distance themselves and put clear water between the two parties to pick up a few extra votes. They don't care that it mobilises and emboldens the far-right.
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ta-ra*el~la
post 7th March 2023, 09:39 AM
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Let's not start a fight over liberals vs leftists. My point was that leftists should not see liberals as the enemy, and liberals should not see leftists as the enemy, because we have a real enemy in the authoritarian culture warrior Right. For example, while I criticize postmodern theory, I don't see leftists as the enemy. I accept that leftists will criticize the liberal worldview too, but please don't see us as the enemy.
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Hugh Janus
post 7th March 2023, 01:09 PM
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I'll bite. What is postmodern theory to YOU laugh.gif

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Smint
post 7th March 2023, 11:16 PM
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There's a lot of terms used in this thread which I'm not 100% sure what is meant, especially as some comments refer to the USA which is different to the UK (they have a very pro LGBT President for starters although life is horrific in the red states) In the UK, it's obvious that progressive people who look after minorities do not have the raw numbers and more importantly the power (in terms of money, media outreach - trans or trans friendly voices are hardly ever in the media and in terms of getting their votes to count, they build up extra votes in big cities, university towns but that leads loads of 'red wall' towns with socially conservative views). If by liberals we mean centrists, it's pretty clear that they are not going to go out on a limb for trans people (Starmer has made that adamant) and some are down right hostile. Anyhow even if people did care, hardly anyone protests in the UK anyway (and if they try now they'll end up in jail). Scotland and Sturgeon was the shining outlier but that's all gone now.

Again I don't know what the answer is. I read India Willougby (who ironically was fairly right leaning a few years back, she was originally on GB News) tweets and often regularly tweets stuff like this Now is the toughest time in history to be trans. They are trying to make life SOOO uncomfortable for us that we stay in the closet. They genuinely want to legislate trans people out of existence. And yes, it is scary. Sending ❤️ to your daughter xxx

What with Rishi Sunak's ghastly 'Send back the boats' lectern, it's fascism happening in real time whilst the rich get even richer.
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J00prstar
post 8th March 2023, 12:09 AM
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Since it hasn't been raised in the thread yet and is relevant and you might not be aware of it...

The phrasing used in a lot of the proposed anti-drag bills in the US (and parroted in anti-drag protests now coming here to the UK) goes beyond drag.
It is actually phrased as 'wearing clothing or having the appearance of not your birth sex'.

Essentially it is establishing a purity test for clothes.
It will be used against trans men and trans women, queer people, and anyone who is gender nonconforming. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. The people that support this believe in a vision of a world where women are bound into dresses, and being housewives and mothers. It's a fiction of a world that never existed except for the very wealthy, a fantasy.

This is what we are up against and why it sickens me to see lesbians and so called 'feminists' (TERFs) chomping at the bit to 'protect the children'. Ma'am, you wearing jeans with a cropped haircut, you are also in their sights. Protect yourself!
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