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 The UK and transphobia |
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 7th April 2023, 05:44 PM
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#261
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 there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,256 User: 22,895 
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I don't totally disagree with Tara. Trans rights becoming a left vs right issue is unhelpful.
However, it's the Tories who have drawn that battle-line in order to try and dip into the hard right vote. They essentially are starting from the point that you can't be certain minorities & vote for them because they will do you in. Not unlike the tale of the frog & scorpion crossing the river. While I think pragmatism should rule the day (which Labour have thankfully FINALLY cottoned on to with attack ads on the Tories), the difference here with the UK is that the current government isn't seeking to maintain cis rights and not advance trans rights; it seeks to roll back existing trans rights. As such, trans people are angry and scared, and as such unable to not go all in or meet halfway. This is war, ideologically. |
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7th April 2023, 07:12 PM
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#262
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 #38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,216 User: 7,561 
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Apr 7 2023, 04:52 PM)  It's astonishing how much these critiques show up for every branch of progressivism, yet no conservative, transphobe or racist is ever hit with the same sort of step-by-step plan to get the public onside with them again. But yeah, exactly, I don't know how the needle could ever be moved by a few trans people at this point. It has to reach a broader crowd, but that won't happen by trans people being model citizens, more likely people think the conservatives talk about it too much - already there are signs in polls that this is the case, where it will actually start harming the electoral chances of conservatives. There are well documented studies which show that once you get to 25 % support/acceptance then there is a kind of ‘tipping point’ where it becomes the established view and the remainder of the population just falls into line - we have seen this with equal marriage where even those who were previously against it today claim that they were always in support of it. So the point I'd make here is that you do not need to convince the bigots or the transphobes, merely win support of the broader more empathetic part of the population, and you do that, not by collapsing to media/political pressure, but by challenging the dangerous rhetoric (see: Brianna Ghey) from the right that seeks to use fear and anger, taking extreme fringe cases, whipping up emotions, smearing and ultimately trying to erase a significant minority within our society. They should absolutely be called out for it, they are using it to build political power - we know from Lee '30p' Anderson that they will be using culture wars and trans debate to fight the next election, and to conflate that with the ongoing (and sometimes quite justified) concerns about the counterproductive actions of cancel culture is not right IMO. It's pretty obvious that GBeebies and the right-wing billionaire owned press are using the same attack lines that are being used in America, which is presumably having trouble cutting through when the 'moral crisis' of drag in front of children meets the immovable fact that pantomimes are a British Christmas tradition. I hate the way that in the same way that so-called 'Pro-Life' campaigners who obsess over the rights of a yet-to-be-born foetus couldn't actually care less about the horrific abuse that some children face, so-called feminists are OBSESSING over this whilst ignoring the fact that the Met Police have been found to be institutionally sexist or than 1 in 4 women experience physical, sexual, emotional, and psychological domestic abuse. |
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8th April 2023, 08:10 AM
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#263
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 BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 637 User: 18,962 
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Gay marriage was at 25% around 2000. Trans rights are certainly past 25% now. The theory is obviously wrong for politics. In fact, the magic number for politics seems to be 60%, rather than the 51% normally assumed, because of the inertia for change. Gay marriage only started to pass in many countries when the general level of support was around 60% in the West (which was around the mid 2010s).
The goal therefore is to get trans rights to 60%. Which tells us what kind of people need to be convinced, i.e. moderate conservatives. It won't be easy, and it will require a massive change in strategy. We're certainly far from 60% on trans rights. So it's time to work hard to change people's minds. We can't afford to just preach to the converted. |
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8th April 2023, 08:46 AM
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#264
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 21 February 2021 Posts: 3,741 User: 124,514
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Polling suggests that even in the much more right wing USA, people are generally anti the flurry of anti LGBT bills in Red states although there are some concerns.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/08/repu...can-trans-poll/ That said their president is broadly speaking pro trans rights whereas the Republicans are completely anti. In UK Starmer has joined the Tories in broadly being against trans rights which is deeply worrying as some people will think 'Even Starmer doesn't support them' - ie moving the Overton window on this particular issue to the right. |
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8th April 2023, 09:03 AM
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#265
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 25 July 2016
Posts: 4,403 User: 23,471
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Apr 8 2023, 08:10 AM) It won't be easy, and it will require a massive change in strategy. We're certainly far from 60% on trans rights. So it's time to work hard to change people's minds. We can't afford to just preach to the converted. Ah, yes, trans people themselves are notorious for their inclusion in mainstream media. It’s almost as if 95% of the time their rights to exist are being discussed without them. They’re purposefully left to ‘preach to the converted’ during these discussions because the alternative would reveal the hypocrisy and deeply flawed arguments against them. Again, this is not on trans people and their poor strategising skills. |
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12th April 2023, 05:44 PM
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#266
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,216 User: 7,561
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Apr 8 2023, 09:10 AM) Gay marriage was at 25% around 2000. Trans rights are certainly past 25% now. The theory is obviously wrong for politics. In fact, the magic number for politics seems to be 60%, rather than the 51% normally assumed, because of the inertia for change. Gay marriage only started to pass in many countries when the general level of support was around 60% in the West (which was around the mid 2010s). The goal therefore is to get trans rights to 60%. Which tells us what kind of people need to be convinced, i.e. moderate conservatives. It won't be easy, and it will require a massive change in strategy. We're certainly far from 60% on trans rights. So it's time to work hard to change people's minds. We can't afford to just preach to the converted. You have made a lot of criticisms but not offered many solutions apart from 'oh well, just sit back and watch the transphobes destroy themselves' - what we need is more voices making the case for the protection and strengthening of trans rights and more representation from the trans community being given a platform to educate the wider public. The attacks from the right and the Tories need to be called out. Where have you got the 60% figure from? I've linked to the study which suggests it is around 25%. Even when you have a wider consensus in society there is always a minority who remain unconvinced no matter what. It strikes me as wild that as long ago as 2004 we had the Gender Recognition Act pass without fanfare or any fuss - the same year that a trans woman won Big Brother in the UK with over 70% of the general public vote. The far-right have been targeting trans rights for some time now, and the Conservative party (thanks to Kemi Badenoch mostly but also backed by the billionaire owned press) are leaning heavily in to this transphobic rhetoric as a way of distracting from the many failures of the last 13 years of Government because they are losing the argument and to cover for the fact that they have NO answers and nothing to offer as to how to improve the lives of people in this country. Starmer is so weak that he can't even stand up for his beliefs and instead collapses into the framing that the media and Government set out, and it depresses me personally. |
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12th April 2023, 07:46 PM
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#267
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
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Reading your last para there, reminds me of a piece I read on the BBC earlier from a journalist from the area about the rise of Homophobia in politics in Eastern African countries and how there was a pattern of this rhetoric rising to the top where the government could arguably have been deemed to have failed. And it is I think quite an interesting parallel. They did it to Europeans and the EU during the Osbourne triple dip recession and economic apocalypse that was the Austerity years, that lead to Brexit and now to distract from the catastrophe that is Brexit they need a new target to hide their failures behind
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12th April 2023, 09:38 PM
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#268
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 21 February 2021 Posts: 3,741 User: 124,514
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Indeed, these culture wars (where trans people and refugees will be top of the Tories' hitlist) are to distract from a complete absence of a positive message about the failure of capitalism here. Also, though they are a product of capitalism - social media companies have long amplified division by highlighting certain posts to users designed for outrage and clicks.
I'm not a big Twitter user myself but in the last week, apparently there has been a dramatic escalation in the visibility of anti trans content especially in the 'For You' feed. What with other sites promoting right wing content (because their backers have the largest purses) then what hope is there for any kind of fairness and equality for minorities? Yes many can see through the lies of the media and are getting better at it but so feels like swimming against the tide. 
This post has been edited by Smint: 12th April 2023, 11:04 PM |
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12th April 2023, 11:29 PM
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#269
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there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,256 User: 22,895
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I saw today that rightwingers are disputing the amount of trans people in the census, claiming that the only way there could be so many is from 'people misunderstanding the question'.
Honest to god you couldn't make it up. This from the same people talking about how trans people are such an all encompassing threatening tidal wave of people too! |
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15th April 2023, 06:00 AM
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#270
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 637 User: 18,962
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Twitter really feels more biased towards the right overall these days. I guess the problem is that too many left and center people quit when Elon Musk took over. I think that was a mistake.
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15th April 2023, 01:47 PM
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#271
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 21 February 2021 Posts: 3,741 User: 124,514
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Yes a lot of left leaning figures I look at have noticeably stopped posting in past few days on Twitter. Moving to Substack?
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20th April 2023, 05:52 PM
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#272
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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Really heartened by what Caroline Nokes said on LBC this week - a shame that some of her colleagues (*cough* Penny Mordaunt *cough*) have the same views but don't dare air them - or worse - deliberately tack against them - because of the fear that being true to their actual opinion and feelings will crash their career. I will also admit that I've said some awful things about Kirstie Allsopp in the past (mainly because of her tacit support of the housing crisis that has completely priced out my generation from ever being able to own a home) but it's great to see her post this today: This all stems from the attacks by the right against the WI, apparently because of a petition which was protesting against allowing transwomen to join the WI (the HORROR) - despite the fact that they've had this policy in force since the 1970s and formalised it in 2015. Just like every moral panic instigated by the right on this issue, it has been completely manufactured but it looks like this time it may have backfired and actually created a larger coalition against them. |
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20th April 2023, 05:59 PM
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#273
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there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,256 User: 22,895
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I didn't expect to have such support for Kirstie Allsop tbh!
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20th April 2023, 06:03 PM
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#274
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there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,256 User: 22,895
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Any excuse to share the latest Contrapoints excellently tearing apart the fact that this whole trans panic is literally a moral panic that is being spearheaded by uncritically platforming and legitimising people who falsely claim to 'just have concerns' and to 'just want to talk' about things that are already legally granted to trans people.
It's long but I would recommend at least the first two 'chapters' of the video for consideration: firstly the story of an anti-gay bigot in the 1970s and how she protested about gay people having any rights and how we view that as bonkers today; and secondly how that person's story could be framed sympathetically as 'one woman's struggle' - and how that framing is exactly how the likes of JK Rowling are being framed now by the mainstream media. One woman who has 'legitimate concerns' when she is anything but. |
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22nd April 2023, 04:51 AM
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#275
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 January 2009
Posts: 7,064 User: 8,073
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Maybe those horrible "transphobes" had a point about it being a bad idea to give puberty blockers to mostly autistic children? Hey, maybe... |
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22nd April 2023, 05:32 AM
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#276
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,609 User: 12,929           |
No, they're still horrible transphobes.
Reading that study, the only thing it really says (ignoring the editorialised tweet, it is from one of the authors but the study itself makes no such recommendation), emphasising it over and over again, is that because of the really low number of studies, making any concrete statements about its effects is not recommended and more long-term research should be done. Which crucially does not mean taking it off the table because the minimal evidence we do have suggests side effects are minor, the positive effects are welcomed, and waiting for effective results takes YEARS (assuming a medical system that isn't ideologically captured by transphobes into suppressing research, which... well...). |
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22nd April 2023, 05:41 AM
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#277
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 January 2009
Posts: 7,064 User: 8,073
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Apr 22 2023, 05:32 AM) No, they're still horrible transphobes. Reading that study, the only thing it really says (ignoring the editorialised tweet, it is from one of the authors but the study itself makes no such recommendation), emphasising it over and over again, is that because of the really low number of studies, making any concrete statements about its effects is not recommended and more long-term research should be done. Which crucially does not mean taking it off the table because the minimal evidence we do have suggests side effects are minor, the positive effects are welcomed, and waiting for effective results takes YEARS (assuming a medical system that isn't ideologically captured by transphobes into suppressing research, which... well...). Is this the definition of cope Finally you have something tangible about "trans kids" and it just doesn't go your way. Love that for you. |
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22nd April 2023, 06:21 AM
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#278
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,609 User: 12,929 |
No, I'm reading the study (where the main conclusion is that there is nothing tangible), not reacting to a tweet headline.
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22nd April 2023, 06:27 AM
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#279
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 January 2009
Posts: 7,064 User: 8,073
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Apr 22 2023, 06:21 AM) No, I'm reading the study (where the main conclusion is that there is nothing tangible), not reacting to a tweet headline. lmao is it worse than those "1%" studies, or are those absolute facts? |
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22nd April 2023, 06:36 AM
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#280
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,609 User: 12,929 |
? It's the article linked in the tweet, which doesn't represent the article effectively. It examines a bunch of studies, 24 specifically, as they were 'relevant', noting a variety of effects for patients taking specific hormones but makes pains to emphasise at every point that the volume of data is still far too low to make credible medical consensus on the subject - particularly given the lack of control groups.
Why does this mean that trans people shouldn't receive care? |
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