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> The UK and transphobia
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Doctor Blind
post 29th August 2023, 12:06 AM
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I agree that discussions and debates online can struggle with nuance and can quickly polarise or lead to ppl getting the wrong impression, the instant reaction that any misjudged comment gets today can quickly blow-up out of proportion and the context lost. However, I get an uneasy feeling about this because she did pin (albeit temporarily) an explicitly transphobic comment/account which doubled down on what she appeared to say, using terms that are linked to a lot of the transphobic conspiracies that are propagated by Glinner et. al.

QUOTE(Colm @ Aug 28 2023, 07:40 PM) *
How can she be a TERF when nothing she said was about trans women? It was about puberty blockers and she termed trans young people as little mixed up kids.


It's obviously fine to have an opinion on something but why is it so important speak out on this particular issue when there are many other important issues affecting young people and wider society today? Those comments you've identified are completely ignorant - puberty blockers have been used safely for decades, not only within the context of those who have gender dysphoria, so she is wrong here. As for the comments about 'mixed up little kids' and 'transing away our gay youth', these are pretty offensive comments IMO, if not explicity transphobic per se. I think these would probably be somewhat consistent with having a generally negative opinion on the trans community. Then using the term 'big pharma' just rings all of the conspiracy theory loon alarms anyway. Yes the pejorative term 'TERF' does get bandied around far too easily and in these kind of debates we can risk pushing someone further into these conspiracies by not giving them space, understanding and the opportunity to discuss their genuine concerns.

Nobody has said anything about cancel culture in this thread, and I agree with you Dandy that it is awful, more I was just expressing sadness and disappointment but really we should be able to seperate the art from the artist.

Just to put this out there- I have no direct experience of ppl in the trans community, so I speak only from what I've read from those that are. I think it's important to hear their voices more than those we end up hearing from and I seek to understand purely on a human empathetic level and I will get things wrong, so I apologise if it comes across in any way insensitive.
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dandy*
post 29th August 2023, 04:19 AM
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Just to clarify, when I mentioned comments being an overreaction I meant the ones directly to Róisín on twitter, not on here from either you or blacksquare - but I do appreciate that it could have read like that, yet more problems with discussing things online haha. Some valid points are being made by the person on twitter but after a while the 20+ messages start to feel more like they are aimed at attacking her rather than just making positive arguments. Why not just respond directly where the ill informed comment was made on Facebook instead.


I too agree that it would be more helpful for the subject in general to hear more from trans people who have experience of using puberty blockers in their circumstances and how it’s helped them.
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J00prstar
post 29th August 2023, 05:49 PM
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I think the term 'kids' is itself loaded when talking about people transitioning at a younger age because it deliberately implies (and sometimes articles even conflate) pre-pubescent children, ideas of actual children dressing up as characters of another gender being used as evidence/grounds for irreversible surgeries, etc.

The 'kids' in these stories are nearly always teenagers for one thing, in most cases post-puberty and in some cases also over 16. When they are not yet able to access hormones and surgical changes their experience of 'transition' takes the form of generally changing their style of clothes, hair, and perhaps going by a different name in school and with peers and family. This to my mind is a far cry from the fearmongering stories and is something that when I was in school a lot of teens, in my school who WEREN'T trans would do generally around puberty.
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Colm
post 29th August 2023, 08:58 PM
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When I asked why she was being called a TERF I wasn't at all condoning what she said or even disputing that she is transphobic. It was the use of the term TERF to describe her that I questioned. I understand the term to mean a feminist who holds the view that transwomen are not women.

I'll be chatting to my trans and non-binary mates on Friday when I see them. It will be interesting to find out their view. They'll no doubt educate me on puberty blockers too.

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Smint
post 29th August 2023, 10:26 PM
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Roisin has done a kind of semi/non apology and said she's not going to say more about the subject....

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/08/29/rois...backlash-trans/


This post has been edited by Smint: 29th August 2023, 10:31 PM
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Doctor Blind
post 29th August 2023, 11:35 PM
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^ Don't worry Dandy, I didn't think you were - and that's surprising coming from me considering how paranoid and reactionary I am irl.

QUOTE(Colm @ Aug 29 2023, 09:58 PM) *
When I asked why she was being called a TERF I wasn't at all condoning what she said or even disputing that she is transphobic. It was the use of the term TERF to describe her that I questioned. I understand the term to mean a feminist who holds the view that transwomen are not women.


OK, sorry for misunderstanding you Colm. Yeah, I believe that was the original definition, but it has since broadened to include basically anyone who is anti-trans.

I fell down a rabbit hole last night reading about Graham Linehan, would not recommend. 😔
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Colm
post 30th August 2023, 06:20 AM
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Aug 30 2023, 12:35 AM) *
OK, sorry for misunderstanding you Colm. Yeah, I believe that was the original definition, but it has since broadened to include basically anyone who is anti-trans.


This is a perfect example of how things get polarised. I could have worded my post to be clearer but I didn't and I could well have been roasted alive for defending a transphobe, or even being transphobic myself. In turn, I'd be left with the impression that I couldn't have a civil conversation with someone about the comments left by Roisin Murphy and that the trans brigade is a zero tolerance, aggressive and unreasonable faction. And if I was a moderate right-winger I'd be picking sides pretty quickly.

The fault was my own, Dr. B. sad.gif


This post has been edited by Colm: 30th August 2023, 06:23 AM
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J00prstar
post 30th August 2023, 09:46 AM
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Tbh I think with this subject that is another (possibly side) issue as well; people starting off with academic or specialised language in a certain context, then other people either misunderstanding it online or in conversations irl (or it being misrepresented in news media articles) with the result that people end up talking past each other and each coming away with a completely different understanding of their conversation or the topics.
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ta-ra*el~la
post 12th September 2023, 06:14 AM
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Cancel culture type activism actively harms the causes it supposedly supports. This is why it should be rejected. Remember, marriage equality was not won this way.

Seriously, the past decade has been a disaster from the view of progressive political strategy. It has produced nothing but support for Trump, DeSantis and people like them. Let's just rewind 7-10 years and begin again from there.
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T Boy
post 12th September 2023, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE(ta-ra*el~la @ Sep 12 2023, 07:14 AM) *
Cancel culture type activism actively harms the causes it supposedly supports. This is why it should be rejected. Remember, marriage equality was not won this way.

Seriously, the past decade has been a disaster from the view of progressive political strategy. It has produced nothing but support for Trump, DeSantis and people like them. Let's just rewind 7-10 years and begin again from there.


Cancel culture only doesn’t work because it doesn’t exist. Roisin Murphy allegedly cancelled looking at her best chart position in decades. Those who claim to be cancelled and silenced are extremely loud.
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Hassaan
post 13th September 2023, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(T Boy @ Sep 12 2023, 05:37 PM) *
Cancel culture only doesn’t work because it doesn’t exist. Roisin Murphy allegedly cancelled looking at her best chart position in decades. Those who claim to be cancelled and silenced are extremely loud.
I would respectfully disagree.

It doesn't work on powerful people who have big fanbases or whatever.

It does, however, affect the ordinary person who gets sacked from a job because of a tweet they wrote as a child (for example).
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dandy*
post 13th September 2023, 01:26 PM
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I'm intrigued by that as I'm not sure I can think of any examples where an ordinary person has been affected by cancel culture. Do you have any situations in mind?


I can definitely think of situations where an ordinary person is held accountable for the way they've acted at the time within their employment etc but I wouldn't really count that as being the same as 'cancel culture'
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Hassaan
post 13th September 2023, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE(dandy* @ Sep 13 2023, 02:26 PM) *
I'm intrigued by that as I'm not sure I can think of any examples where an ordinary person has been affected by cancel culture. Do you have any situations in mind?
I can definitely think of situations where an ordinary person is held accountable for the way they've acted at the time within their employment etc but I wouldn't really count that as being the same as 'cancel culture'
I'm mainly thinking of those people who have been sacked from a job for an old tweet rather than simply being given a talking to (and the person is clearly not the same person as they were). It has happened to the odd soap actor too (not ordinary in that sense but hardly big names either).

I think we haven't really found that line between holding someone accountable and 'cancelling' them.

The problem with these Twitter pile-ons, regardless of whether or not the person actually deserves it, is that I don't believe anything is gained. The person on the other end of it is not going to learn much from thousands of people screaming at them, and may make them more resentful instead. It doesn't matter how genuinely apologetic they might be, they'll still get ripped to shreds.


This post has been edited by Hassaan: 13th September 2023, 02:21 PM
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Dobbo
post 13th September 2023, 02:48 PM
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I've never heard of any regular person getting sacked from a job because an old tweet. I'm sure they'd have ample sources of recourse especially if it clearly had no bearing on their performance.
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T Boy
post 13th September 2023, 05:13 PM
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I do remember there was a soap actor who was sacked for racist tweets from years ago but these also hadn’t been deleted and despite it being years ago, people were still able to view them. And it’s not exactly cancellation but an employer deciding to let them go due to a badly kept social media. That is something you get warned about before entering the world of work. And it definitely isn’t cancellation if people weren’t aware of you anyway.

Cancelling is not a real thing. It’s a celeb made construct to deflect from the awful things some of them are saying and doing. Why is it some people always focus on ‘how’ someone expresses their disappointment and less on the actions of the bigoted?
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Eric_Blob
post 13th September 2023, 06:30 PM
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In my opinion you should allow DNA testing for children in advance of puberty blockers. If a young boy has gender identity issues, and we find out he actually has XXY or XXXY chromosomes or something like that, then there'd be a LOT less controversy over him getting puberty blockers and maybe eventually transitioning. You can't argue with biology and an actual DNA test. People would understand it a lot more if it's someone who has an actual biological condition. If it's a "normal" kid people are worried they've been manipulated into it.

And if it's found out that they have usual chromosomes then there should be mental health evaluations first before going to transition. A shockingly high amount of trans people have been victims of sexual abuse in early childhood, and it's at a MUCH higher rate than non-trans people. So that suggests being a victim of sexual abuse as a young child may cause gender identity issues in the victim. Correlation does not equal causation, but the correlation is there, so that needs to be addressed, it's harmful to ignore this fact, people out there are struggling and need help. And accidentally transitioning someone who temporarily thinks they might trans when they're really not will cause even more suffering to an already damaged person.

Also, you guys can pretend to misunderstand what I'm saying all you want. But I'm not going to check this thread again (at least not for a few weeks), so ridicule me all you want. I know there will be people reading who will understand what I mean, that's what's important, and how we can resolve this issue.


This post has been edited by Eric_Blob: 13th September 2023, 06:33 PM
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T Boy
post 13th September 2023, 07:19 PM
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‘Pretend to misunderstand’ yeah, whatever you say.

Just bound into the thread, say something you know might not be the shared view amongst the majority and then run out again declaring you won’t return because it’s our problem if we don’t agree with you.

This is my issue with anti-trans people. They don’t want to understand, they don’t even want to talk. They just want to shout and then my shielded from the response/criticism.
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Liаm
post 13th September 2023, 07:35 PM
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Why do people act like hormones and puberty blockers are handed out like sweets laugh.gif It’s a long waiting list to even get an appointment with a gender specialist, and then a diagnosis is needed. People are piling on a hot button issue that the media are pedalling is “cool” to be against yet they don’t seem to have any idea of what’s actually going on. Which is perfectly characteristic of the demented anti trans mob who are just obsessed with spewing bile. It really makes me sick, I can’t fathom living your life purely driven by such hatred for something that doesn’t even affect you.
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JosephBoone
post 13th September 2023, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE(Eric_Blob @ Sep 13 2023, 07:30 PM) *
In my opinion you should allow DNA testing for children in advance of puberty blockers. If a young boy has gender identity issues, and we find out he actually has XXY or XXXY chromosomes or something like that, then there'd be a LOT less controversy over him getting puberty blockers and maybe eventually transitioning. You can't argue with biology and an actual DNA test. People would understand it a lot more if it's someone who has an actual biological condition. If it's a "normal" kid people are worried they've been manipulated into it.

And if it's found out that they have usual chromosomes then there should be mental health evaluations first before going to transition. A shockingly high amount of trans people have been victims of sexual abuse in early childhood, and it's at a MUCH higher rate than non-trans people. So that suggests being a victim of sexual abuse as a young child may cause gender identity issues in the victim. Correlation does not equal causation, but the correlation is there, so that needs to be addressed, it's harmful to ignore this fact, people out there are struggling and need help. And accidentally transitioning someone who temporarily thinks they might trans when they're really not will cause even more suffering to an already damaged person.

Also, you guys can pretend to misunderstand what I'm saying all you want. But I'm not going to check this thread again (at least not for a few weeks), so ridicule me all you want. I know there will be people reading who will understand what I mean, that's what's important, and how we can resolve this issue.

I can't believe what I've read here. I'm not here to "ridicule" you and I don't believe people on Buzzjack stoop that low, so I assume you're just not happy to read any backlash to a post as outlandish as this. This framing of transitioning as a solution to sexual assault is alarming, no matter what the statistics say. If someone who has previously been sexually assaulted wants to transition, so what? Why is that an issue? Why are some people allowed to be trans by your suggestion and not others? Why should trans people beckon to the vocal minority who are anti-trans? We can resolve the issue by increasing trans visibility in media, having laws that recognise trans people as equal citizens to cis people, and have people in positions of power speaking up to support the trans community, as well as the continued impact of pride parades and the like. Deciding who can and can't transition takes away free will from people and dehumanises trans people.

"Accidentally transitioning" is not a thing btw. Transitioning is a long process and starts long before any actual procedures or even before hormones/puberty blockers are prescribed. Some people de-transition but that's a *tiny* amount going by statistics online. It's not an overnight thing, nor is it "temporary." People may change how they feel and identify but that is not representative of all trans people and you can't tar all with the same brush, it's simply not fair.

In future, I'd suggest you think before posting if you're just going to drop a post and then run off, scared of the blowback. It suggests you're not here to debate or listen to alternative opinions, you just want people to accept what you say as gospel and truth. Save yourself (and us) the effort in future.
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J00prstar
post 13th September 2023, 09:15 PM
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For what it's worth I do think genetic testing or screening might be helpful for a lot of issues, speaking as someone with a late diagnosed genetic condition that could have been managed years earlier if only someone had looked for it.

Sadly though regarding chromosomal differences although logically you might think thay would open the door for medical practicioners to discuss gender and variances, instead in many places the prevailing medical attitude is that instead they need to OVERcorrect and pull out all the stops to help your external body match a gender stereotype, instead of letting it be an entry way to discussion of how the patient feels.

There has even been cases of trans women with cancer being accused of faking it in order to move up the list for bottom surgery. It's really gross and an attitude that I hope will change in this country, to take a 'fixing you' approach rather than a 'what do you feel' approach.

Re sexual assault that is another more complex issue which I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on. I think it's a tough subject at the best of times and drawing a link like that could certainly be construed as problematising trans identity as something that could be fixed through prevention instead of something that could occur naturally in the human brain or body.
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