Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ EU Referendum Discussion

Posted by: princess_lotti Feb 20 2016, 08:07 AM

If there is a thread for this already feel free to merge/delete.

Cabinet are discussing the new UK-EU deal today, and afterwards we will be getting the date for the referendum.

Posted by: popchartfreak Feb 20 2016, 10:21 AM

was thinking of doing a thread for exposing wildly hyperbolic claims from rabid supporters of either Yes or No. I'll pop them on here instead. First off? It has to be Nigel Farage interviewed this morning practically frothing at the mouth. Apparently the EU is responsible for everything wrong in the UK and leaving it will make everything rosy and perfect, plus it'll get rid of those pesky immigrants coming over here and taking jobs away and living on benefits.

OK. most of our ills are caused by previous BRITISH governments and their policies, the EU doesn't tell us what to spend, how much to spend, and on what, we do that all on our own. The current crisis is not caused by foreigners, except for those ones working in banking. The rich ones from America and so on, who both are and are not part of the EU. The immigrant always gets blamed by rich toffs as a scapegoat. The rags pushing this anti-EU foreigner stance are owned by enormously wealthy foreigners who will pretty much have free-reign to buy an entire political party and power beyond their wildest dreams. This is hypocrisy. Foreigners are allowed to come over here and tell us what to do, buy up our houses, businesses, or marry us (hello Nigel hypocrite Farage) but not allowed to sweep floors and clean toilets, or slightly better jobs. The top jobs have already become subject to non-EU cushy deals which allows foreign firms to employ their own countryman and move over here.

Cameron has done a benefits deal, though this small fry in money terms, just like the overall loss of income is over-stated. Tinkering round the edges compared to, say, the volumes of cash owed by the banks still.

So, I shall declare myself very pro-EU and very frightened at the prospect of even more free-reign Toryism or Murdochism than there is right now. We will lose lots of benefits, and all the crap about being free to trade with the rest of the world instead is nonsense - we already are free to do that, in case anyone hasn't noticed we just gave China our contracts for nuclear power stations just as happily as we sold our power companies to France. The EU has no effect on these policies at all. If the China economy goes belly-up from it's bubble though, we will very much be affected as the Tory Party are putting all of it's financial bets on them, a country which has brand-new deserted cities and the biggest property-bubble of all-time.

So, happy days are here again. It's quite easy to argue the pro case cos the leave case is so full of BS rhetoric. tongue.gif

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 01:11 PM

I don't really get the pro-EU lot who treat it as a religion, but I think I'm pretty solidly In on the basis that it just makes zero sense to me to leave the club and still have to abide by most of its rules without getting a say on them - we aren't going to leave the EEA or EFTA, so why bother risking a load of jobs for the sake of 'sovereignty' that isn't sovereignty?

And as for the argument that if we leave we'll magically be able to strike up a load of free trade deals...I mean, it's pretty apparent these people professing to know all about our economic destiny have no idea about China's general economic strategy in the countries they're proposing we deal with instead.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 01:42 PM

I think it's fair to assume that some of the people who were most vocal in describing the SNP's plans for independence as "over-optimistic" or "vague" will, over the next few months, be making equally unsubstantiated claims for the UK's prospects outside the EU. Yet, as they are the ones advocating change, the onus is on them to make a convincing case.

My biggest worry is that a lot of people will cotton on to the fact that Cameron is a serial liar and will instinctively vote against him. There is also a danger that he will say something catastrophically stupid which will make people vote to leave just to spite him.

Posted by: poppet15 Feb 20 2016, 02:01 PM

Everyone blames European immigrants for our troubles. But what about all the immigrants from places such as Pakistan & Bangladesh that came over in hundreds of thousands over the last 20 or 30 years and claiming benefits.

There are millions more of them than EU immigrants. At least EU immigrants come to work and do jobs that we won't do unlike the economic migrants who just come to get all their kids kept.

I know which immigration I'd rather have if any of these.

Also I'd rather be with Europe than being a lapdog to America and becoming their 51st state.
Think about all the jobs that will be lost if we leave.

If we left the EU Scotland will soon be wanting another vote for independence as they would stand to really lose out if we left.

I'm Pro-European and proud of it. Better the devil you know!!!

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 02:20 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 20 2016, 01:42 PM) *
My biggest worry is that a lot of people will cotton on to the fact that Cameron is a serial liar and will instinctively vote against him. There is also a danger that he will say something catastrophically stupid which will make people vote to leave just to spite him.

Well it's not as if it's likely either of those things would become more of an issue after eleven years rather than ten.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 02:33 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 02:20 PM) *
Well it's not as if it's likely either of those things would become more of an issue after eleven years rather than ten.

The difference is that he has a large part of the tabloid press lined up against him on this.

Posted by: Iz~ Feb 20 2016, 02:34 PM

QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 02:01 PM) *
But what about all the immigrants from places such as Pakistan & Bangladesh that came over in hundreds of thousands over the last 20 or 30 years and claiming benefits.

There are millions more of them than EU immigrants. At least EU immigrants come to work and do jobs that we won't do unlike the economic migrants who just come to get all their kids kept.


How dare they invade, no, say, colonise our country and treat it like it's their own, eh?

QUOTE
Also I'd rather be with Europe than being a lapdog to America and becoming their 51st state.


I want America to hurry up and ascend Puerto Rico already so this 51st state nonsense at least gets a new number.

~~

Like, I'm up for staying very much because it would be an almighty step backwards to reduce our position in one of the strongest multi-state organisations on the planet. As far as I'm concerned the system is working well for us, we're stronger together than we are apart and there's no use taking the risk because some disgruntled right-wing nuts think we can just rebuild our economic ties like that.

Additionally, we are one of the states at the centre of the organisation, so leaving and taking up a Switzerland-like position would surely not go down well with the other big contributors. A Brexit would be disastrous to our relations with the rest of Europe.

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 02:53 PM

Also the whole 51st state thing is all a bit 2006 really. We haven't by any stretch of the imagination 'just done what America told us' for a while now.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Feb 20 2016, 03:47 PM

The demographic time-bomb that would result from us turning away migrants from other EU countries and them returning the favour doesn't bear thinking about. Easy decision for me. Less than amused that the vote will be while I'm at Glastonbury, but it gives us an excuse to buy an EU flag.

Posted by: poppet15 Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 02:53 PM) *
Also the whole 51st state thing is all a bit 2006 really. We haven't by any stretch of the imagination 'just done what America told us' for a while now.


Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 03:55 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Feb 20 2016, 03:47 PM) *
The demographic time-bomb that would result from us turning away migrants from other EU countries and them returning the favour doesn't bear thinking about. Easy decision for me. Less than amused that the vote will be while I'm at Glastonbury, but it gives us an excuse to buy an EU flag.

Just remember to arrange a postal vote!

It's also in the gap between the end of the group stage and the start of the last-16 in the Euros.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 03:56 PM

QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM) *
Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!

Iraq and Afghanistan were both before 2006.

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 04:10 PM

QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM) *
Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!

Iraq and Afghanistan were both before 2006. You also seem to have forgotten that we didn't go into Syria in 2013 when America asked - which had the added effect of America not doing so either. So no, we aren't 'on the verge' of becoming the 51st state.

Posted by: burbe Feb 20 2016, 05:16 PM

I don't understand why the SNP are so pro-EU, yet hellbent on being independent from the UK? I hope I'm not being stupid, but it just seems like a massive contradiction in their policy.

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 05:24 PM

QUOTE(burbe @ Feb 20 2016, 05:16 PM) *
I don't understand why the SNP are so pro-EU, yet hellbent on being independent from the UK? I hope I'm not being stupid, but it just seems like a massive contradiction in their policy.

YEP

Posted by: Brett-Butler Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM

The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 06:32 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM) *
The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.

Not to mention the part the EU played in allowing budget airlines to exist, thereby allowing more people to travel to a place where roaming charges are relevant.

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 06:50 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM) *
The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.

They already have!

Posted by: Harve Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM

At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU.

I'm torn between my identity as both a European and British person and the principle that the EU should be egalitarian with no special status membership (although of course the latter isn't entirely new). It's quite ironic that those who preach that the EU isn't a democratic organisation are indeed the biggest threat to the EU being fair.

Obviously I can't see myself voting Leave, but I guess I share the sentiments that many people outside the UK feel and are at this point wondering, only half-jokingly, why they don't have a referendum as to whether the UK is allowed remain a member of the EU. In any case I feel as though the damage is already done.

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 20 2016, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(Harve @ Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM) *
At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU.

Oh I can't lie, a part of me totally sympathises with this

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 20 2016, 11:17 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 10:08 PM) *
Oh I can't lie, a part of me totally sympathises with this

It's hard not to sympathise with it.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Feb 21 2016, 01:15 AM

QUOTE(Harve @ Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM) *
At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU.

I'm torn between my identity as both a European and British person and the principle that the EU should be egalitarian with no special status membership (although of course the latter isn't entirely new). It's quite ironic that those who preach that the EU isn't a democratic organisation are indeed the biggest threat to the EU being fair.

Obviously I can't see myself voting Leave, but I guess I share the sentiments that many people outside the UK feel and are at this point wondering, only half-jokingly, why they don't have a referendum as to whether the UK is allowed remain a member of the EU. In any case I feel as though the damage is already done.


So now you know how Northern Ireland, Wales and England felt about the Scottish independence referendum (which incidentally had it gone ahead would have left Scotland with a massive hole in their finances - price of oil now less than a 1/3rd the value that was costed into the SNP independence budget).

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 21 2016, 03:57 PM

That puffed up wanker has gone for Out, I see.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 21 2016, 03:57 PM) *
That puffed up wanker has gone for Out, I see.

Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does.

Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to

i) dithering;
or
ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions.

Posted by: popchartfreak Feb 21 2016, 08:20 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM) *
Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does.

Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to

i) dithering;
or
ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions.


possibly he failed to understand the question until someone showed him pretty pictures which clarified what each meant...

Posted by: popchartfreak Feb 24 2016, 02:08 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM) *
Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does.

Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to

i) dithering;
or
ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions.


article in "i" today suggests firmly that it's the latter, being as he's brought up in Brussels, has family and family pensions from the EU, married a Belgian and has always publicly supported the EU (and reportedly in private).

Either that or he's joining with farage in trying to get his wife chucked out of the country along with the 2 million Brits living in the EU being chucked out of those countries (no longer having a right to stay and all). Great, suddenly the UK will have 2 million returning countrymen to find houses for, jobs for, while all of our imports cost more and exports get taxed by our biggest market. The Out brigade seem to optimistically be under the illusion that we can negotiate new deals one by one. That will take years, and the likes of Norway have to pay through the nose to access the EU market while having no say.

Johnson has been described by the former leftish-of-centre Tory MP Jerry Hayes as a "copper-bottomed, hypocritical little shit". He was the amusing chap who also said he couldn't support New Labour as they were "too right wing". I do enjoy his quotes, he seemed to get right up the noses of the establishment. tongue.gif


Posted by: Suedehead2 Feb 24 2016, 03:48 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Feb 24 2016, 02:08 PM) *
article in "i" today suggests firmly that it's the latter, being as he's brought up in Brussels, has family and family pensions from the EU, married a Belgian and has always publicly supported the EU (and reportedly in private).

Either that or he's joining with farage in trying to get his wife chucked out of the country along with the 2 million Brits living in the EU being chucked out of those countries (no longer having a right to stay and all). Great, suddenly the UK will have 2 million returning countrymen to find houses for, jobs for, while all of our imports cost more and exports get taxed by our biggest market. The Out brigade seem to optimistically be under the illusion that we can negotiate new deals one by one. That will take years, and the likes of Norway have to pay through the nose to access the EU market while having no say.

Johnson has been described by the former leftish-of-centre Tory MP Jerry Hayes as a "copper-bottomed, hypocritical little shit". He was the amusing chap who also said he couldn't support New Labour as they were "too right wing". I do enjoy his quotes, he seemed to get right up the noses of the establishment. tongue.gif

Mondays headline in the Independent - Out For Himself - summed it up very well in just three words. Despite the fact that most of the press dutifully licked a certain part of Johnson's anatomy, one Tory MP tried to claim that he had been given a rough ride by the press since his latest publicity stunt.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 10 2016, 01:40 PM

Been a while since anyone commented as various headlines front the rag pages. Latest is the Queen is quoted as being anti-EU. This smacks of desperation from the anti-EU brigade on the grounds that there are many many statistics and examples coming out from many quarters, largely fairly sane opinions, of what could be problems and the consequences with a Brexit. There are as yet no concrete or sane examples of why it would be good for the country to leave the EU, just lots of bitter quotes about pro-EU propaganda from those trying peddle Brexit propaganda. Sort of like a spoilt child not getting their way.

If anyone can spot any examples that are being talked about with convincing reasons to leave the EU, and that will be of benefit to the vast majority of the people in the UK I'd be interested to see them. As far as I can see (so far) they tend to be:

a) we can control our borders against low-paid Europeans coming over here (plenty of low-paid non-Europeans around though, so I don't really see the logic). By borders they mean those with an EU passport, though that won't stop EU people coming over for English Language schools, working for EU companies (those that don't pack up and move) or any foreign companies (ditto) or filling a gap in the workforce (eg farm workers and cleaners).

Nigel Farage: I'm probably incorrectly paraphrasing here, but it seems to be "I don't want any foreigners coming over here (except for my wife and the rich ones)"

Boris: as above: "Harrumph, cough waffle, I'm totally against, harrumph, mumble, anything that stops me, harrumph, becoming, mumble, Prime Minister"

All posh rich Tories: "I'm utterly against anything that stops me getting richer (such as EU legislation that aims to protect low-paid workers and various right-wing legislation we have a much better chance of getting through while the opposition is a shambles"

b) Everything will be milk and honey once we are free to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms (which, of course, we already can do)

c) God Save The Queen, bloody foreigners, good old days, what, what, what, where's my monocle, bloody Poles taking all the jobs living on benefits, spongers, breeding like flies, stupid poor people, rich know what's best, I'm a bigot, I don't understand anything, I'm bitter and mad as hell about something and want someone to blame especially foreigners.

I think that sums it up. NO actual statistics needed....

Posted by: princess_lotti Mar 10 2016, 06:56 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Mar 10 2016, 01:40 PM) *
If anyone can spot any examples that are being talked about with convincing reasons to leave the EU, and that will be of benefit to the vast majority of the people in the UK I'd be interested to see them.


we've been discussing this today in politics! To clarify, I am pro-Europe but I can understand the actual case for exiting the EU, and there is of course a sensible case for it, even for our "younger generation!". HOWEVER, all I'm seeing in the media is pathetic attempts at scaremongering, I don't think I've had one article pop up which actually deals with the exit campaign in a sensible way.

This is the first political event myself and most of my friends will be able to vote on, but at the moment it really saddens me how little most of my peers actually know about the EU. Many of them think it's as clear cut as "do we want foreigners ( mellow.gif ) or "do we want easy trade".

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 10 2016, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Mar 10 2016, 06:56 PM) *
we've been discussing this today in politics! To clarify, I am pro-Europe but I can understand the actual case for exiting the EU, and there is of course a sensible case for it, even for our "younger generation!". HOWEVER, all I'm seeing in the media is pathetic attempts at scaremongering, I don't think I've had one article pop up which actually deals with the exit campaign in a sensible way.

This is the first political event myself and most of my friends will be able to vote on, but at the moment it really saddens me how little most of my peers actually know about the EU. Many of them think it's as clear cut as "do we want foreigners ( mellow.gif ) or "do we want easy trade".


It's good it's being discussed, that's impressive and positive! I think there's a whole section of the population young and older that are so used to Boris Johnson's scandal-mongering EU lies (and they were all made up) about EU daft legislation headlining the Rags year after year that they have come to believe the rubbish. Sadly, if you say something enough people start repeating it as fact, and the very rich owners of the press are very good at ongoing campaigns against anything that affects their profits and power.

Plus, a lot of people just switch off as soon as politics comes on and just find something more interesting to think about instead tongue.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 10 2016, 08:08 PM

The joke is that Iain Duncan Smith accused the In campaign of scaremongering, largely for committing the mortal sin of asking the Out campaign some questions and expecting answers. This is from a man whose party's election campaign last year spent two weeks doing little other than frightening people by warning about the possibility of the SNP playing a role in government. Just to add to his hypocrisy, he made this claim in an article in the Daily Mail. That would be the same Daily Mail that would struggle to fill a single page if they didn't have any scaremongering stories.

Posted by: burbe Mar 10 2016, 08:24 PM

Both campaigns are guilty of scaremongering, hyperbole, made up facts and generally operating a negative campaign. Why can't we have a sensible and POSITIVE campaign discussing the benefits of both being In and Out and way up which benefits Britain more? It's no wonder people don't care about politics when all the politicians do is bitch about each other and "warn" about how "dangerous" the other side is. It happened at the general election and it's happening again now.

Posted by: princess_lotti Mar 10 2016, 08:34 PM

YES it's so annoying seeing people my age already so disillusioned by politics and our politicians, when in reality it's really such an exciting and ever changing topic. I really hoped this referendum would make other people in the sixth form more excited about politics, but people just don't seem to care sad.gif Back in the general election, everybody only ever seemed to care about the new funny video of Miliband what had come out, no one ever discussed actual policy. This is probably a rant I need to save for another time/thread though tongue.gif

Back to the EU, I'm still laughing over the Sun claiming to have witnessed a "bust up" between the Queen and Clegg laugh.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 10 2016, 08:40 PM

The In side have every right to ask the Out side some pertinent questions. After all, the Outies are the ones advocating change. However, they should also concentrate on the positive side of being in the EU. They need to start listing the things the EU has given us. If they want to do it in a Python-style manner, that's fine.

Posted by: Qassändra Mar 10 2016, 08:50 PM

People talk about negative campaigning as if it's this awful thing with no redeeming attributes whatsoever. For all that everyone pisses on about 'Project Fear' in the Scottish referendum - well, were not all the claims screeched about as 'scaremongering' proven wildly accurate in the end? If something is going to make someone worse off and sticking with the status quo will leave them better off, that's a perfectly legitimate campaign to have. It's down to the other side to demonstrate why the fears are unfounded.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 10 2016, 09:20 PM

Which is why they have resorted to slagging off - there are few examples they can absolutely give where things would improve, so they don't even bother trying knowing they would look like laughing stocks. The BBC tried to do an impartial piece about science in the EU today (the UK has a net gain of 2billion a year for science from the EU) so they dragged out a scientist (no idea who he is or what he does) who thinks that leaving the UK would free up scientists to help the economy boom by allowing business to be free from red-tape. No actual example of this "red tape", nor how it stops investment in the UK, of course. Nor how not having red tape would magically create money from somewhere to put into new industry created by these new inventions that haven't yet been invented.

The words, straws, at and grasping spring to mind. That's a "scientist" for you (well at least one not agreeing with the Science Industry that gain billions from the EU, creates jobs for Brits and allows the UK to bring in EU scientists pretty easily and play a significant role in work for the mutual benefit of Mankind. Selfish bast*rds!)

Posted by: Doctor Blind Mar 10 2016, 09:23 PM

Pre-sactly. Scotland would be bankrupt - we have already seen the capitulation of the property market in Aberdeen now that the funny oil money has run out, and that is WITH government intervention. UK government, not the Scottish btw.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 10 2016, 09:35 PM

We constantly hear people whinging about "red tape", but we rarely hear them being challenged to give an example. On the odd occasion somebody has tried to determine where these people get their figures from, they have to include, for example, the cost of a statutory holiday entitlement. I'm sure most people would consider that to be a right worth having rather than unnecessary red tape.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 11 2016, 01:13 PM

Boris is at it again:
BBC:
Mayor of London Boris Johnson has said leaving the EU is a "win-win for all of us", urging those backing exit to "hold our nerve and vote for freedom".
Speaking in a factory in Kent, Mr Johnson said the EU was an anachronism which "costs us a huge amount of money and subverts our democracy".
He insisted there were no downsides from leaving the EU, joking the "only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

This is highly emotional language: "freedom" "nerve" "subverts" and the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, quoting (rather stupidly) a very leftwing US President socially. That country was in a huge depression, this one risks going into a similar one (we havent recovered yet from the last one) thanks to idiots peddling bullshit like Johnson. Things will be perfectly fine for the rich, of course, no matter what, because they are rich and their money is most likely stacked safe in tax havens. We, the not-rich, have plenty to fear if the economy goes belly-up, just as we've had our way of life go downhill over the last decade thanks to the last lot of greedy rich tosspots.

We are not shackled, we have greater freedoms in society than at any time in our history (trust those of us old enough to recall when we were persecuted based on who we fancy, or being the wrong colour, or wrong religion. In terms of cost, freedom isn't free.

part 2...

But in a further boost for the Leave campaign, the head of the Conservative group of MEPs in the European Parliament, Syed Kamall, has said he believes the UK "could forge a better life outside" the EU.
Mr Kamall, who also heads the pan-European ECR group, said he believed a "fair and balanced" immigration policy was only possible outside the EU.

the first quote is wishful thinking with no substance, the second is another way of saying "the right sort of immigrants". His party, of course, has appointed a governor from Canada, and Boris is singing the praises of Canadian foreign policy (which is with the EU, and which he wants to opt out of thinking the UK could get the same deal on its own - no it won't. The EU will not be co-operative, because to allow the UK to get off Scot-free would put the whole EU at risk if other nations thought they stood to gain from leaving and getting an improved deal).

So, apparently Canadians are the ideal sort of immigrants that we want more of (unless we want to marry them of course, Mr Farage and Mr Johnson).

Funny, Canada was a hugely popular destination for IMMIGRANTS!

T. T. S. A W.

(anagram).

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 11 2016, 01:46 PM

I love the way they follow the words "in a further boost for the Leave campaign" with something about a person almost nobody has heard of. I'd also like to know whether Syed Kamall's idea of a "fair and balanced" immigration policy would have allowed his ancestors to come here.

Posted by: Rooney Mar 11 2016, 08:52 PM

I think what worries me the most is a lot of older people will be swayed easily by Brexit once the campaigns step up. For me, a lot of pensioners are completely out of touch with how business works these days, and it's a completely different model to 15-20 years ago. Our economy would spiral massively if we left the EU. Not to mention the risk of jobs it would face. It's just bad for business in general. Very uncertain times ahead I think.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 12 2016, 10:30 AM

a problem with older folks is always the "rose-tinted-spectacles" syndrome where they have glowing memories of when they were young and everything was fresh and new (forgetting the crappy stuff) and hanker for the good ol' days when things were better (for them). When I was young the older generation were always banging on about the good old days. These good old days were the Second World War period.

I now have the pleasure of seeing people my own age rewriting their own personal history to create a magical fantasy land of milk and honey that never existed. It's called nostalgia, and we all have it for the good things we now miss, but I get very annoyed when people delude themselves with reality then and now (I don't suffer from rose-tinted-specs syndrome). Things are better for most people in 2016 than they were 40 years ago in almost every area, bar the environment. This is a fact.

Things are not as good as they were 10 years ago, for quite a lot of people. This is also a fact. People wish to blame the EU for that rather than bankers and politicians and people taking stupid debt risks they couldn't afford. Yes we have more people incoming but there's also a couple of million UK outgoing, a low birth rate until immigration happened (and we need workers to provide taxes for the old people and those on benefits who can't or won't work).

These are the sort of issues that need talking about sensibly and the Out brigade should be addressing the consequences of Brexit honestly (pro and con) rather than peddling vague nostalgic rose-tinted scare-mongering reality-distorting sound-bites.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 12 2016, 02:10 PM

Michael Gove has just been sound-bited not denying he was the one that outed the Queen's hearsay opinions, just waffling on that he doesn't know where the Sun got "all" of it's facts for the story, and pleading that it's not important and that we should concentrate on the facts. Presumably whoever leaked the story felt that facts about the EU weren't required.

Some sources report Michael Gove as a snivelling, hypocritical, talentless, policy-making disaster. I can't divulge where I got all of these hearsay opnions, but it's not important, it's far more important we have facts on why the EU is of benefit to the UK. I suggest listening to his own Tory leader if he's interested in learning more.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 14 2016, 10:31 AM

Boris is ranting about Obama's anticipated opinions in support of the EU/UK. Waffling about the non-right of non-EU countries to not have an opinion about it (when it will affect them in some small or large way) shows a massive fear of expert opinion on the matter. We NEED to hear how the rest of the world view it in order to make a balanced decision about it.

Boris, of course, didn't slag off his OUT pardner for putting words into the mouth of the Monarch, who may or may not have views on a topic that she is politically required not to publicly share. It's essential for our democracy (that he seems to think is so important and dear to him) that the Queen remain impartial. So, calling Obama hypocritical is a case of kettle calling frying pan.

Posted by: burbe Apr 7 2016, 02:55 PM

What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides.

Posted by: Virginia's Walls Apr 7 2016, 04:10 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Mar 14 2016, 10:31 AM) *
Boris is ranting about Obama's anticipated opinions in support of the EU/UK. Waffling about the non-right of non-EU countries to not have an opinion about it (when it will affect them in some small or large way) shows a massive fear of expert opinion on the matter. We NEED to hear how the rest of the world view it in order to make a balanced decision about it.

Boris, of course, didn't slag off his OUT pardner for putting words into the mouth of the Monarch, who may or may not have views on a topic that she is politically required not to publicly share. It's essential for our democracy (that he seems to think is so important and dear to him) that the Queen remain impartial. So, calling Obama hypocritical is a case of kettle calling frying pan.


Also their greatest supporters are Murdoch owned media, an Australian, so that smacks of hypocrisy.

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 7 2016, 06:07 PM

QUOTE(burbe @ Apr 7 2016, 03:55 PM) *
What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides.


Well, depends who's financing what really. I would be more prepared to call the Stay campaign more fact-based than the hysterically dumb Out campaign which the tabloid press swallow wholesale and push (for their own political reasons) so it's right the government of the day should get it's own version of events out. Today, frinstance, the Outers are quoting EU/UK tit-for-tat agreed recharges of hospital bills in each as if it were proof of foreigners carrying out health tourism under the Health Card thingy which I always carry with me in Europe - free medical services in the EU (and Norway and other non-EU states!) for British tourists, as the EU country recharges the NHS, while the NHS recharges EU citizens' home country. Trouble is....they don't quite understand that the NHS forking out £250 million to other countries is to the benefit of British living abroad, while the rather less £50m we charge should show:

a) UK citizens benefit when abroad, not the reverse

b) EU citizens can be recharged, that's the EU agreement.

So desperate for BS headlines they don't even carefully think about their own arguments. I'm not saying the NHS always recharge (not everyone will bother with the card cos they know they won't be refused admittance), but that's a management issue not the fault of the EU or the nursing staff. EU hospitals manage to recharge...




Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 7 2016, 07:40 PM

The lies told by the Out campaign would be laughable if not for the fact that so many people seem to believe them.

A couple weeks ago, the Mail led with a story about would-be immigrants found is the back of a lorry and claimed that it proved that we don't control our own borders. Of course, it actually proved the very opposite. It's because we control our own borders that it was possible to search the lorry. If the Mail want every incoming lorry to be searched, perhaps they could let us know what that will do to process as the transport cost suddenly goes up. Perhaps they could also tell us where all those lorries will be parked while waiting to be searched.

Then there was the nonsense about crimes committed by EU immigrants who already had a criminal record. What they haven't explained is how such people will be kept out if we leave the EU. Are they suggesting that all EU citizens will have to apply for a visa before visiting the UK? In any event, member states are able to exclude people with a criminal record if it is deemed to be justified. It is unlikely that any court would insist that the UK (or any other EU country) should be forced to admit a convicted murderer or rapist. If we leave the EU, it may be more difficult to get the information needed to exclude such people. It certainly won't be any easier.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 8 2016, 08:52 PM

No will get substantial votes because unlike the Scottish ref the majority of media/newspapers want to leave against the majority of MPs wanting to stay(not always a good thing)!

Hilarious how the Outers are disgusted at the gov propaganda because it's against their opinion whereas in Scotland in 2014 they happily encouraged it!

Posted by: Qassändra Apr 8 2016, 08:57 PM

Is it the majority of newspapers? I count Express, Mail and The Sun for Out, against The Times, The Guardian, The Mirror and the I for In, with the Telegraph probably going for Out in the end. The unspoken bias of the BBC and Channel 4 will be for In.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 8 2016, 09:00 PM

I assumed The Times would be an Outer, didn't realise Murdoch would let them be In. I say the Telegraph will certainly be Out as well.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 8 2016, 09:01 PM

Has the Times declared for In? You've left the Star off the list of papers for Out. If the Sun counts as a newspaper, so does the Star.

The Telegraph has published some vaguely pro-membership stories, so there is still a chance they could surprise us. Even so, the two papers with the biggest readership are firmly on the Out side.

Posted by: Harve Apr 8 2016, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 8 2016, 10:01 PM) *
Has the Times declared for In? You've left the Star off the list of papers for Out. If the Sun counts as a newspaper, so does the Star.

The Telegraph has published some vaguely pro-membership stories, so there is still a chance they could surprise us. Even so, the two papers with the biggest readership are firmly on the Out side.

Indeed. Boris Johnson has given the EU plenty of praise in his Telegraph column.

QUOTE
The choice is really quite simple. In favour of staying, it is in Britain’s geo-strategic interests to be pretty intimately engaged in the doings of a continent that has a grim 20th-century history, and whose agonies have caused millions of Britons to lose their lives. History shows that they need us. Leaving would be widely read as a very negative signal for Europe. It would dismay some of our closest friends, not least the eastern Europeans for whom the EU has been a force for good: stability, openness, and prosperity.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12145593/Voters-have-to-ask-Donald-Tusk-some-hard-questions-before-they-accept-his-EU-deal.html

Posted by: Andr00w Apr 10 2016, 08:02 PM

If the UK voted out and Scotland had voted in would it necessarily be a good thing for the SNP? Polls have shown support for the 'yes' side is still lower than the 'no' (No has 47% in the most recent poll, yes 40% and the rest undecided) and the SNP can only have another referendum if there's substantial demand for one (although they'd probably push for one anyway) and if No won again even after a Brexit it would be quite damaging to the SNP.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 10 2016, 08:44 PM

Yeh it would be a big moment if the SNP called a second referendum which is strange that they've put themselves in a position where it may be called in two months if the No campaign wins in June.

Posted by: Qassändra Apr 10 2016, 09:09 PM

I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Apr 10 2016, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(burbe @ Apr 7 2016, 03:55 PM) *
What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides.


I didn't get one sad.gif (I did one that said 'EU: The Facts', that had very few of them and was produced by Vote Leave)

The rhetoric of the entire campaign has been predictably driven by fear and scaremongering by both sides, and ultimately has driven my interest away from the debate. Basically the only reason we seem to be having this referendum in the first place is to settle some pathetic spat within the Conservative party that has little to do with bettering the lives of people in or out of Europe and essentially I just want it to go away.

Anyway I still think the remain will get enough of the status-quo votes to secure a reasonable win, whatever the result however: the entire thing will mostly go down as a complete waste of time/money.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Apr 10 2016, 09:16 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Apr 10 2016, 10:09 PM) *
I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable.


Good point - the whole we don't want to be ruled by Westminster mantra but perfectly happy to allow Brussels to have some control. I expect the SNP will be urging people to vote 'Leave' for this very reason.

The cult of SNP is a weird one indeed.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 10 2016, 09:27 PM

QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 10 2016, 10:11 PM) *
I didn't get one sad.gif (I did one that said 'EU: The Facts', that had very few of them and was produced by Vote Leave)

The rhetoric of the entire campaign has been predictably driven by fear and scaremongering by both sides, and ultimately has driven my interest away from the debate. Basically the only reason we seem to be having this referendum in the first place is to settle some pathetic spat within the Conservative party that has little to do with bettering the lives of people in or out of Europe and essentially I just want it to go away.

Anyway I still think the remain will get enough of the status-quo votes to secure a reasonable win, whatever the result however: the entire thing will mostly go down as a complete waste of time/money.

That's exactly why we're having it. Unfortunately, that seems to be influencing the coverage of the whole debate, meaning we rarely hear from Labour and the lib Dems about why we should vote to stay in the EU. After all, the Tory Inners are hardly going to shout about the workers' rights that come from the EU.

The biggest problem for the Tories is that, whatever the result, half of their parliamentary party will have lost the vote. That will stir up trouble within the party up to and well beyond their next leadership election. A referendum that was meant to settle the Europe question within the party may end up doing the very opposite.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 10 2016, 09:32 PM

QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 10 2016, 10:16 PM) *
Good point - the whole we don't want to be ruled by Westminster mantra but perfectly happy to allow Brussels to have some control. I expect the SNP will be urging people to vote 'Leave' for this very reason.

The cult of SNP is a weird one indeed.

Every SNP MP has declared their support for remaining in the EU. Your reason for suggesting they would do otherwise is just like questioning why so many former members of the Soviet bloc (and the Soviet Union itself) are now in the EU.

Posted by: Andr00w Apr 10 2016, 09:36 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Apr 10 2016, 10:09 PM) *
I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable.

Maybe, but I think with the collapse in oil price it'll still be a no.

Posted by: Qassändra Apr 10 2016, 10:13 PM

QUOTE(Andr00w @ Apr 10 2016, 10:36 PM) *
Maybe, but I think with the collapse in oil price it'll still be a no.

You'd think, but somehow that hasn't stopped support for independence staying exactly where it was 18 months ago, if not a little higher.

Posted by: Qassändra Apr 10 2016, 10:14 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 10 2016, 10:32 PM) *
Every SNP MP has declared their support for remaining in the EU. Your reason for suggesting they would do otherwise is just like questioning why so many former members of the Soviet bloc (and the Soviet Union itself) are now in the EU.

Much less applicable though, given they get a say in the EU whereas they absolutely didn't in the Soviet Union. Short of maybe Wings, Craig Murray and the most devoted of Cybernats, I'm not sure how many Nats would go so far as to suggest Scotland's under some Sovietesque thumb.

Posted by: Harve Apr 11 2016, 08:15 AM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Apr 10 2016, 10:09 PM) *
I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable.

If the UK goes as far as voting to leave, I'd strongly consider voting to leave the UK.

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 14 2016, 11:01 AM

Corbyn speaks! About bloody time. Ok he used the phrase "the Labour Party" a lot rather than "I" but his speech put up a decent case for staying in the EU. It also showed how hypocritical the Tories are and underlined how much worse we would be off giving the tax evading powerful rich even more power over those of us who are powerless. You cant trust people who are financed by the wealthy to do anything other than pay lip service and toss a few PR bones to the media in order to get re-elected.

One idiot labour out supporter was rambling on about higher education being unaffected by leaving the EU - well duuuuh! - and then managed to infer that young people needed persuading of the error of their pro EU opinions by older wiser people who know better. Dont know which parrallel universe hes been living in but i can recall perfectly clearly what life in the UK was like pre EU, post EU and now. It was a world of abject poverty for the poor compared to now. It was a world where racists were complaining about being swamped by foreigners - largely people from countries the UK invaded and took over - and now the children of immigrants are stupidly moaning ^the same tenuous arguments.

MORONS! We have a low birth rate and an ageing population. Foreigners always get the blame. Its what the rich do. Who caused all of our ills? Bloody British politicians for the most part. Especially those on their knees servicing the rich and powerful who bankrupted the world and have yet to even say sorry for doing it.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 21 2016, 03:13 PM

Great article in todays Guardian showing the Polish communities point of view -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/21/eu-migrant-uk-referendum-politicians-press

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 21 2016, 09:22 PM

good article. I work with EU nationals (they get employed because they are well educated and conscientious), I have EU friends working over here (they aren't on benefits, they work all the live-long day and evening to make a living to get by, often in jobs UK nationals turn their noses up at as beneath them, busy as they are sat at home watching daytime TV on widescreen TV's).

Employers love well-educated young EU nationals and chasing them out of the country isn't going to help, not least because the pension-age generation need young tax payers with young families, as do those on benefits living off the state by choice. Yes, they exist, know plenty of them too....all British funnily enough.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 21 2016, 11:15 PM

I work in the social housing sector and had to turn away a oldish(looked around 50) Bulgarian man because he had no proof of his employment during his years working in the uk and so wasn't entitled to help in the social housing sector more importantly for him tonight he had nowhere to stay and so without benefits couldn't stay in a decent hostel (if any hostels are really great) and had to just advise him to go to the local Salvation Army crash shelter which I hate advising people to do sad.gif

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 22 2016, 12:06 PM

So Boris thinks Obama expressing an impartial opinion on the UK EU vote is hypocritical?

OK, so the USA is nothing like the EU - one is a collection of member states with a single currency, and laws and legislation they govern themselves by, but with reference to basic human rights agreed by member states and a central court, while having one member state with a union jack flag who lives offshore from the rest of the mainland, and while many people in the member states complain about immigrants and the centralised decision-making powers castrating the individual states, some of whom are poorer and less populous than wealthier and more urbanised and populous states who nd to dominate.

The other one is the EU.

So no reason to believe Obama knows anything then and we should pay no attention to potential and actual important trading partners....

Johnson is another word for something else...

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 22 2016, 07:23 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Apr 22 2016, 01:06 PM) *
So Boris thinks Obama expressing an impartial opinion on the UK EU vote is hypocritical?

OK, so the USA is nothing like the EU - one is a collection of member states with a single currency, and laws and legislation they govern themselves by, but with reference to basic human rights agreed by member states and a central court, while having one member state with a union jack flag who lives offshore from the rest of the mainland, and while many people in the member states complain about immigrants and the centralised decision-making powers castrating the individual states, some of whom are poorer and less populous than wealthier and more urbanised and populous states who nd to dominate.

The other one is the EU.

So no reason to believe Obama knows anything then and we should pay no attention to potential and actual important trading partners....

Johnson is another word for something else...

We don't have a like button yet, so I'll just have to post verbal agreement biggrin.gif

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 23 2016, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 22 2016, 08:23 PM) *
w a bit about us
We don't have a like button yet, so I'll just have to post verbal agreement biggrin.gif

Thanks cool.gif

The leave brigade have turned on obama like the bitter racist nasty pack of hounds they are. Using their logic anyone who doesn't agree with leaving the EU is doing it out of hate for the old british empire. Yet they dont mention the white american ancestry of the president and the war of independance. Johnson was born in new york you would imagine he might know a bit about british history, plus check his facts about churchill bust's in the whitehouse. Desperate w*n**rs with no actual concrete arguments to put forwsrd so they go "ya boo hiss i hate you" instead

A town full of johnson' s and their reaction to a black sherrif...


Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 23 2016, 03:42 PM

How many of the people complaining about Obama's intervention were perfectly happy for EU leaders to tell Scottish voters that they couldn't expect instant membership if they voted to leave the UK?

Posted by: Silas Apr 23 2016, 06:05 PM

Those same people were lecturing Scotland 18months ago themselves. Their intervention in another counties referendum was fine but god forbid someone do the same thing to them. Hypocritical c**ts.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 23 2016, 07:20 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Apr 23 2016, 07:05 PM) *
Those same people were lecturing Scotland 18months ago themselves. Their intervention in another counties referendum was fine but god forbid someone do the same thing to them. Hypocritical c**ts.

In most cases I would say that countries should keep their noses out of other countries' elections and referendums, but there are exceptions. This is one of them, as was the Scottish referendum. Both decisions had / have a major effect on other countries, so it is hard to insist that they should keep quiet.

Posted by: Silas Apr 23 2016, 10:26 PM

Keeping the subject on Scotland, the Sunday Herald cover tomorrow is saying 75% of Scotland will be voting remain

Posted by: Qassändra Apr 24 2016, 10:06 AM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 23 2016, 04:42 PM) *
How many of the people complaining about Obama's intervention were perfectly happy for EU leaders to tell Scottish voters that they couldn't expect instant membership if they voted to leave the UK?

By the same token, how many of the people complaining about people having a say in what would happen to their own United Kingdom are perfectly happy for Obama to intervene and tell a totally different country what to do?

For the record, I'm chill with both.

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 24 2016, 09:55 PM

Obama didn't tell anyone what to do, he offered friendly advice on the likely repercussions on the Uk and on a country that would be indirectly affected by a No vote and therefore had preferences, but left voters free to make up their own mind. Far more factual than the frothing hyperbole of the Leave leaders on TV all day. All they had to do was calmly explain why Obama was wrong, and give examples (though Australia was mentioned as a Trade Agreement bunged together in under 12 months, I'd like to see facts on that one if anyone has them).

Instead they mostly made it personal, mostly because they had nothing to offer in reply other than "Make Britain Great again" (presumably by invading half the world, again), "stop the immigrants!" (except those they married) and "Let's make our own laws free from tyranny" (we agree to any laws passed by the EU).

They are all acting like spoilt children who don't get their own way. tongue.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 24 2016, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Apr 24 2016, 10:55 PM) *
Obama didn't tell anyone what to do, he offered friendly advice on the likely repercussions on the Uk and on a country that would be indirectly affected by a No vote and therefore had preferences, but left voters free to make up their own mind. Far more factual than the frothing hyperbole of the Leave leaders on TV all day. All they had to do was calmly explain why Obama was wrong, and give examples (though Australia was mentioned as a Trade Agreement bunged together in under 12 months, I'd like to see facts on that one if anyone has them).

Instead they mostly made it personal, mostly because they had nothing to offer in reply other than "Make Britain Great again" (presumably by invading half the world, again), "stop the immigrants!" (except those they married) and "Let's make our own laws free from tyranny" (we agree to any laws passed by the EU).

They are all acting like spoilt children who don't get their own way. tongue.gif

Even if they are right about the trade deal with Australia, the power balance is rather different. When negotiating with Australia we are in a far more powerful position than we are when negotiating with the USA. Besides, how did we do a deal with Australia? The Leave campaigners keep telling us we can't make our own trade deals.

Meanwhile, some Leave campaigners are claiming that there are plans within the EU to create some sort of superstate. As ever, the argument has serious flaws. Even if such a document exists, it is irrelevant. The creation of a superstate would need to be agreed by all member states. The chances of that happening are precisely zero. Even if governments agreed, some countries would require a referendum. One of those countries is the UK. The No vote in such a referendum would probably be so high that there would be no point in making a few tweaks and asking voters to have another go.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Apr 24 2016, 10:09 PM

Boris has shown his true colours, if only he'd done it eight years ago and London wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself (with respect to housing etc.)

Posted by: Silas Apr 24 2016, 10:36 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 24 2016, 11:08 PM) *
Even if they are right about the trade deal with Australia, the power balance is rather different. When negotiating with Australia we are in a far more powerful position than we are when negotiating with the USA. Besides, how did we do a deal with Australia? The Leave campaigners keep telling us we can't make our own trade deals.

Meanwhile, some Leave campaigners are claiming that there are plans within the EU to create some sort of superstate. As ever, the argument has serious flaws. Even if such a document exists, it is irrelevant. The creation of a superstate would need to be agreed by all member states. The chances of that happening are precisely zero. Even if governments agreed, some countries would require a referendum. One of those countries is the UK. The No vote in such a referendum would probably be so high that there would be no point in making a few tweaks and asking voters to have another go.

Think they are referring to the US-Aus Free Trade Agreement. Which was knocked up fairly quickly but I would imagine that it's rather heavily swayed in Americas favour. Which any agreement we had with them would be.


That's the thing that really grits my shit about the leave crew. They actually think an economy so vastly greater than ours will seriously treat us as an equal. We're nothing to them. Being part of the EU sways things in our favour. The free market is so absolutely vast and powerful that it's the only market that's bigger than the US and China. That's why staying in makes so much sense. We may be subject to some insane laws and the parliament may need a bit of a trim when it comes to red tape. However, that single market is just so incredible. Easily the best thing the EU has ever done along with free movement.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Apr 30 2016, 07:00 PM

Sir John Major has weighted in on the issue, telling Brexiters that if they want undiluted sovereignty in the modern world, they can go to North Korea because that's where they'll get it. biggrin.gif

Maybe if the referendum turns out to be "Remain" Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage will do just that (in my wildest dreams).

Posted by: Steve201 May 3 2016, 09:04 PM

Boris Johnson falling into the Brexit camp was a huge coup for him but it has def meant his chances of becoming Tory leader could be over IMO.

Posted by: Baytree May 4 2016, 12:04 AM

I have been turned off by the government's negative propaganda for IN. I've listened to/read all that kind of junk during the Scottish referendum.

At the moment it's like a tussle between ambitious Tories.

Maybe after the Holyrood elections, if Scottish politicians keep their word and run positive EU referendum campaigns, for and against, I may become more enthusiastic.

I think the media in the UK fails in its first duty - to inform the public and be objective. There are far too many subjective puff pieces cluttering up those politics and current affairs pages, which haven't been elbowed out by celebrity 'news' garnered from twitter.

I hope the EU referendum will do for the rest of the UK what the Scottish one did for Scotland - here politics is as much an everyday topic of conversation as the weather.

Posted by: popchartfreak May 4 2016, 01:18 PM

People don't have to pay any attention to anything any politician says if they think they are biased - there are plenty of opinions and facts from other organisations, other nations, the BBC is doing one each day, today it was fishermen (largely OUT inclined, of course, because they imagine they would be free to fish whenever, whatever and wherever they want - those of us that can recall the Cod Wars and have concerns about overfishing may hold a very different point of view, as we suddenly have to get warships patrolling to stop foreign fishermen who would be bound by no rules unless the EU can come to an agreement with the UK).

The Property Industry is overwhelmingly in favour of IN, on the other hand (like 95%) because they anticipate falling house prices, foreign investors Eu and non-EU both, not buying up assets to the extremes they have been, especially if there is a falling pound.

To those of us unable to afford our own house, that sounds like a good thing. To those with a mortgage it means negative equity for another long period of time. With no cheap labour being allowed in the country (eg for farming crops) that would mean either farmers increase wages (and therefore pass on costs to consumers) in order to convince the British unemployed to toil in fields on backbreaking physical jobs rather than claim benefits. Employers hoping to lower wages with no EU legislation (such as holiday, hours, basic pay) might suddenly find a labour shortage, just as there already is for nursing, ambulance response, some teaching subjects, and actually having to pay more, increasing prices, inflation, less competitive to exporters.

Now you can say this is all "might be" propaganda, but the OUT brigade just whine about propaganda and don't answer these sorts of questions. The IN brigade at least address them, even if they get accused of scaremongering and bias if they do. The reason neither side can provide facts is because there aren't any that can answer these sorts of concerns - it's a leap of faith from increasingly rabid supporters, one side worrying that we will as a nation be much worse off afterwards in our glorious world isolation, the other saying that we will be living in some rose-tinted heyday that never existed (except for the rich) and that everything will be fluffy kittens afterwards. They have no proof that things will be better at all, they only have faith, misguided or otherwise.

There are always consequences to every action - since they are proposing to change the status quo, it's down to the OUT lot to make convincing cases for every question that is thrown up - at the mo they amount to "we will be free to trade with the rest of the world" with nothing to back up claims that the UK will be able to negotiate advantageous trade deals (for us) with every other country in the world inside 2 years. This would be nothing short of a miracle without an army of bureaucrats and politicians with the power to sign us up without paying much attention to the fine print. Councils cock up big time rushing through tediously small legislation on piffling 25million pound contracts in 18 months that are stuck with huge gaping holes in them, so I have no trust that Boris and Nigel will have any talent for being Super-Negotiator-Man (just that they will blame whoever does rush it through as they demand).


Posted by: Qassändra May 4 2016, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(Baytree @ May 4 2016, 01:04 AM) *
I have been turned off by the government's negative propaganda for IN. I've listened to/read all that kind of junk during the Scottish referendum.

And given how much of it turned out to be true, what does that say about disliking 'negative' campaigning for the sake of it?

Posted by: Baytree May 4 2016, 05:45 PM

Such as, other than a global drop in the oil price due to SaudI Arabia trying to put pressure on the American shale oil industry?

Posted by: Qassändra May 4 2016, 09:15 PM

Seems a fairly big 'such as', given how much of the budget for a fairer Scotland was predicated on that one resource. The No campaign was correct that that wouldn't cover the costs, and correct on the economic havoc that would currently be being wreaked on an independent Scotland.

By much the same token, the Remain campaign really aren't scaremongering on how many jobs would be at risk if we left the EU. It just isn't in the interests of companies to keep their European headquarters in a non-EU country - hence, it's not really scaremongering to say those jobs absolutely are at risk. Arguing that the status quo isn't worth losing isn't a negative.

Posted by: Doctor Blind May 4 2016, 09:17 PM

Oil price is more a reflection of slowdown in global demand than OPEC trying to sabotage American shale. Bit of a strange tactic to employ given Saudi Arabia are now in DEFICIT.

Posted by: popchartfreak May 7 2016, 09:17 PM

Funny how the out brigade havent been slagging off trump for sticking his nose into uk affairs by saying he wants the uk to leave. Apparently it only applies to any politician that doesnt agree with them. Or maybe they didnt want to draw attention to his very detailed and persuasive case ("bloody immigrants" to summarise). Failing to point out of course that the REFUGEES are a direct result of uk and us policy in Iraq and subsequent lack of policy in Syria.

So all the EU's fault is that clear enough?

Posted by: popchartfreak May 23 2016, 09:05 PM

A voice of positive reason enters the debate. Thank you Nicola.

Posted by: Silas May 23 2016, 09:57 PM

She has a point. If you want to make a case that wins over the public, then state your case positively with hope and sell a vision. The carrot works far better than the stick.

Posted by: Soy Adrián May 24 2016, 07:56 AM

She knows exactly what she's doing. She wants to be seen as critical of the Remain campaign to avoid looking like a hypocrite when she inevitably starts talking up "Project Fear" again as soon as this is over and she can continue to campaign full time for a second referendum.

Posted by: Silas May 24 2016, 12:10 PM

The SNP have said all along they wouldn't stand shoulder to shoulder with the other parties, after spending 18 months killing labour with that line it'd be hypocritical. But yes I agree. She knows exactly what she's doing and i would be inclined to agree that there was one eye on indyref2 just in case Brexit wins and the machine has to start up overnight

Posted by: popchartfreak May 29 2016, 08:05 AM

OK, the OUTers have demonstrated quite clearly by now that this vote is about one issue only: Immigration. No other topic is pushed any more (as they have no convincing arguments) so this is the one that counts. The Leave papers have daily headlines about it.

So, my problem with the simplistic simple-minded Leavers that instantly stopping the flow of immigration will make everything hunky dory:

1) More than half of all immigrants are from outside the EU. The Leavers wish to develop stronger ties to the Commonwealth countries. Citizens of these countries, unlike the EU immigrants and the British living abroad, have a vote in the referendum. This is clearly insane, but is not viewed as a problem. There has been no attempt to explain how the 55% of immigrants coming into the country are going to be stopped. We already have the power, and these Tory politicians know perfectly well that they could have campaigned at any stage to bring in legislation to prevent non-EU immigrants entering the country which would have instantly halved the problem. They didn't. That suggests that is not going to change in any way, if anything the closer ties with the Commonwealth (assuming those ties have been turned off, as opposed to transformed into EU trade deals) may even increase immigration from outside the EU - that's what happened in the good old days of the "Great" Britain when the likes of the loathesome racist Tory Enoch Powell was making Rivers Of Blood speeches and lamenting the end of the British Empire and way of life. That didn't happen. Second generation immigrants become British.

2) They ignore the fact that there are more people working, bringing in more taxes to support the increasing older generation needs. Lose those jobs, those taxes, you have a bigger hole in the annual budget, so taxes go up on those still working.

3) Housing: Yes there is increased pressure on Housing. Build more houses. Building = more industry, more taxes, more jobs, lower house prices, less using British property as an investment return for wealthy foreigners. All governments in the last 20 years have ignored the problem. Back in the Thatcherite 80's and early 90's there were massive house-building programs. Right To Buy has effectively killed this, people get half-price houses for nothing (the tax payer pays, a Tory Party policy) and then sell-on to the usual suspects who rent out (also paid for by the tax payer). The basic housing policy has politically been f***ING INSANE for 20 years and that has caused the problem. Immigrants have made a bad situation worse, but they aren't the root cause of it. British politicians are.

Now answer those issues, Johnson & Gove, and explain how your policy is going to do anything to change that. You have no answers that I have seen.

UPDATE: Liam Twatty Fox is sounding all reasonable on Andrew Marr right now, but it's just fluff. He just said, and I paraphrase, that EU migrants are getting an unfair advantage over immigrants from Australia, canada and The USA. This, despite the FACT that MORE immigrants already come from outside the EU, and he reckons that immigration could be cut down to the 10's of thousands. This is utter blatant racist bullshit. The fact that he didn't name non-British white colonies speaks volumes. The fact that he failed to mention they could halve immigration in one fell-swoop with nothing to do with the EU referendum shows how hypocritical they are. It's all about racism.

Andrew Marr didn't pull him up on any of the gaping holes in his argument. More of a political broadcast than an actual grilling.

Posted by: Soy Adrián May 29 2016, 02:37 PM

As with every time someone tries to drag the housing crisis into a political argument about another issue, the best solution is just to build more houses. Always.

Posted by: Suedehead2 May 29 2016, 03:02 PM

I rarely bother to listen to broadcast interviews any more. I just get too frustrated when the interviewer seems to be afraid to ask any decent follow-up questions or challenge their interviewees "facts". Why haven't the outers been shamed into dropping their blatant lie about membership costing the UK £350m per week?

Posted by: popchartfreak May 31 2016, 07:30 AM

...and here I go again. I wish the Leave campaign wouldn't give me so much material to lay into them.

Gove, weasel-like, is on TV making outrageous claims about the EU being to blame (essentially) for VAT on fuels and that leaving would give us all £60 a year (using the current EU subsidy).

a) he's not in charge of making policy for his party

b) His party brought it in, and despite everything he claims, if HIS party wanted to they could give a rebate right now to all VAT payers. They haven't, they won't, it's not a party commitment. It's a brazen lie. If we leave the EU we COULD suddenly invent pink flying elephants to deliver sugar-free candy to all children. That won't happen either.

Desperate, much.

The newpapers meanwhile are scaremongering about Albanians coming into the country by boat as if this is the end of the world and just the tip of the iceberg surge.

a) people have been arriving by boat in this country for thousands of years, it didn't just happen.

b) Albania is not in the EU. It is however, a member of NATO and the WTO. Does this mean we can now expect the Leave EU supporters to start campaigning against member states of NATO and the WTO (which I believe they are in favour of) as a means of keeping immigrants out of the country, or can we expect them to confirm that the EU is to blame for legal immigrants into the UK, and also for non-EU illegal immigrants from the countries they wish us to have closer ties with?

c) There will never be enough warships and patrolling staff to stop people arriving by boat - there are barely enough staff to keep tabs on official ports and airports customs properly. if you want boats and patrols then it will cost us all as taxpayers. It CAN be done but it will be expensive and the EU will have nothing at all to do with it, leave or remain.

Dicks. Twats. Liars. Hypocrites. Rich self-interested bast*rds. Power-hungry Media Barons. So many words I could use....


Posted by: Suedehead2 May 31 2016, 07:48 AM

It's all part of their thoroughly deceitful campaign. They don't even need to say that leaving the EU will make any difference. Just by highlighting the issue in the middle of the campaign, they give the impression that it is somehow something to do with EU membership. Unfortunately, there seems to be little chance of anybody asking the Leave campaigners to explain how it is relevant to the referendum.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 5 2016, 10:47 PM

Anyone watch the 1975 EEC ref debates on BBC parliament all day today? The level of debate was much greater then!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 6 2016, 09:42 AM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jun 5 2016, 11:47 PM) *
Anyone watch the 1975 EEC ref debates on BBC parliament all day today? The level of debate was much greater then!!

I saw part of the results programme. There were plenty of comments on Twitter saying the same as you as well as lamenting the lack of politicians of the calibre of people like Barbara Castle and Roy Jenkins.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jun 6 2016, 12:15 PM

in fact the histrionic leavers in those days were the Hard Left, obviosuly concerned about the threat to the Eastern Block countries posed by democracy and the free market, and the loathesome racists. Happily Enoch Powell is dead so I can say what I like about him. He was an insane horrible racist and the world is a better place without him. I hated him as a teenager and I hate him still. Good riddance.

Politicians can't be that blatant these days, so they have to use other excuses for trying to bring back the British Empire from the dead when we had power over the lesser human beings, as they saw it, around the world. Nice country - we'll take it! Literally.....

Posted by: burbe Jun 8 2016, 09:32 PM

For those interested with such things, the election schedules have been revealed. BBC One begins broadcasting at 9:55pm on Thursday and ends on Friday at 1pm. ITV begins broadcasting at 10pm on Thursday and will end at 6am for Good Morning Britain - they also have another programme scheduled for 9:25-10:30am.

I'm surprised the BBC is starting at 9:55pm like in the general elections since there's no big 10pm exit poll reveal to happen.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 8 2016, 10:35 PM

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has switched sides and is now supporting the Remain campaign. She has said that the Leave campaign's infamous £350m per week claim "simply isn't true". I was rather surprised and disappointed when she backed Leave as I have always had a lot more respect for her than I have for most Tories.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 8 2016, 11:02 PM

Yeh she's more or less an independent in my eyes.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 8 2016, 11:03 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jun 6 2016, 10:42 AM) *
I saw part of the results programme. There were plenty of comments on Twitter saying the same as you as well as lamenting the lack of politicians of the calibre of people like Barbara Castle and Roy Jenkins.


Yeh the Oxford Union debates were like something from a 19th century upper class school with them all debating in tuxedos!

Posted by: Cremey Jun 16 2016, 05:03 PM

Absolutely devastating news about Jo Cox sad.gif RIP

Posted by: Qassändra Jun 16 2016, 06:11 PM

In total shock.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jun 16 2016, 08:26 PM

I arrived on holiday to get away from stress and also media hate. I find myself confronted by a horrible image of deperate people fleeing war caused by the fall out from british invasion of iraq, being used by a loathesome smiling racist inferring they are on the way to invade as hordes of rapist muslims.

I then find myself having to despair for the loss of an mp with social conscience being brutally murdered by one of the white racists beloved of nigel farage.

As i sit here on my holiday balcony, inside the eu, i am looking at a mosque not 30 feet away from me of muslims at prayer. Next door are gay bars frequented by people from all over the eu, gay and straight.

I hate nigel farage and his cronies. Not because of their lies, manipulations and complete selfish disregard for fellow human beings. Not because of the murderous predictable consequences of hate preachers. But because he has made me turn to hate too. For him.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 16 2016, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jun 16 2016, 09:26 PM) *
I arrived on holiday to get away from stress and also media hate. I find myself confronted by a horrible image of deperate people fleeing war caused by the fall out from british invasion of iraq, being used by a loathesome smiling racist inferring they are on the way to invade as hordes of rapist muslims.

I then find myself having to despair for the loss of an mp with social conscience being brutally murdered by one of the white racists beloved of nigel farage.

As i sit here on my holiday balcony, inside the eu, i am looking at a mosque not 30 feet away from me of muslims at prayer. Next door are gay bars frequented by people from all over the eu, gay and straight.

I hate nigel farage and his cronies. Not because of their lies, manipulations and complete selfish disregard for fellow human beings. Not because of the murderous predictable consequences of hate preachers. But because he has made me turn to hate too. For him.

Very eloquently put.

Posted by: Oliver Jun 17 2016, 11:29 AM

Switzerland have just withdrawn their suspended application to join the EU. With just a week before the vote I'm slightly worried that this could turn some fence-sitters to vote Leave, as if to ask "why have Switzerland cancelled their application, there must be a reason?".

Posted by: Silas Jun 17 2016, 12:24 PM

The Swiss have never really been serious about going through with it, I don't even think the EU counts them in the enlargement section. At least not like Iceland and the Balkans and states like Ukraine and Georgia

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 18 2016, 11:53 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jun 16 2016, 09:26 PM) *
I arrived on holiday to get away from stress and also media hate. I find myself confronted by a horrible image of deperate people fleeing war caused by the fall out from british invasion of iraq, being used by a loathesome smiling racist inferring they are on the way to invade as hordes of rapist muslims.

I then find myself having to despair for the loss of an mp with social conscience being brutally murdered by one of the white racists beloved of nigel farage.

As i sit here on my holiday balcony, inside the eu, i am looking at a mosque not 30 feet away from me of muslims at prayer. Next door are gay bars frequented by people from all over the eu, gay and straight.

I hate nigel farage and his cronies. Not because of their lies, manipulations and complete selfish disregard for fellow human beings. Not because of the murderous predictable consequences of hate preachers. But because he has made me turn to hate too. For him.


Well put - Michael Collins said this also - "I don't hate them because of their race, their religion or who they are...I hate them for making hate necessary"

Posted by: Qassändra Jun 19 2016, 04:42 AM

QUOTE(Oliver @ Jun 17 2016, 12:29 PM) *
Switzerland have just withdrawn their suspended application to join the EU. With just a week before the vote I'm slightly worried that this could turn some fence-sitters to vote Leave, as if to ask "why have Switzerland cancelled their application, there must be a reason?".

I appreciate the worry, but given half of all Labour voters say they don't know what the party's official line on the referendum is, I think it's unlikely that many people will hear about small technical story like tis or have their minds changed by it.

Posted by: Common Sense Jun 19 2016, 10:29 PM

Anyone planning to stay up on Thursday night? Result won't be announced until around 7-8 am but local councils declare their results throughout the night. Sunderland will be first and will give a good idea of what's going to happen. If leave can't win there then they apparently have no chance nationally.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 19 2016, 11:01 PM

If the result is close it could take until around 7am. Unless the polls are way out, the result certainly looks like being in doubt until around 4am at the earliest.

The pundits are saying that Leave need a lead of around six points in Sunderland to have a good chance of winning. However, it is all fairly imprecise as Thursday's figures cannot really be compared with anything. The figures the pundits are using are based on a poll taken across the country, but the number of voters asked in each local authority area is very small. They have taken those figures and then attempted to use information on the make-up of the population of each area to calculate a predicted local result if the overall result is a tie.

It could well be a nail-biting night. If the final result is very close, who knows what sort of legal challenges there might be?

Posted by: Virginia's Walls Jun 19 2016, 11:34 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jun 19 2016, 10:29 PM) *
Anyone planning to stay up on Thursday night? Result won't be announced until around 7-8 am but local councils declare their results throughout the night. Sunderland will be first and will give a good idea of what's going to happen. If leave can't win there then they apparently have no chance nationally.


Sunderland will give no indication as it is in the most anti EU region there is!!

Posted by: Liаm Jun 19 2016, 11:55 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Jun 19 2016, 11:29 PM) *
Anyone planning to stay up on Thursday night? Result won't be announced until around 7-8 am but local councils declare their results throughout the night. Sunderland will be first and will give a good idea of what's going to happen. If leave can't win there then they apparently have no chance nationally.

Yeah gonna stay up for a lot of it laugh.gif Not sure I'll manage it all, I'd say that I'd wait until it's clear but it could be a race to the very last second the way things are looking!

Posted by: Common Sense Jun 20 2016, 07:42 AM

QUOTE(Virginia @ Jun 20 2016, 12:34 AM) *
Sunderland will give no indication as it is in the most anti EU region there is!!



Well according to an expert I was reading yesterday, it will as the DEGREE that Sunderland votes out is important. If they vote out by say 3% then it'll be unlikely that Leave can win nationally but if they vote out by 6%+ then it's game on. The more results that come in, the more the broadcasters will have an idea.

Posted by: Common Sense Jun 20 2016, 07:52 AM

QUOTE(Liаm @ Jun 20 2016, 12:55 AM) *
Yeah gonna stay up for a lot of it laugh.gif Not sure I'll manage it all, I'd say that I'd wait until it's clear but it could be a race to the very last second the way things are looking!



On election night I laid on the settee (with the dog!) with snacks and energy drinks but kept dropping off for a nap but caught most of it then went to bed when wife had gone to work at 9am.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 20 2016, 10:11 PM

I went to bed last May after midday when the leaders had resigned.

I'd say after the first result the result will be clear. It was like that in Scotland in 2014!

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 20 2016, 10:12 PM

I'd love to stay up to watch the results as they come in, unfortunately as I've got a test the next day I'll have to make do with just catching the very start and the very end.

Posted by: Harve Jun 21 2016, 09:59 AM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jun 20 2016, 11:11 PM) *
I went to bed last May after midday when the leaders had resigned.

I'd say after the first result the result will be clear. It was like that in Scotland in 2014!

It will probably be closer than the 2014 though!

Posted by: LexC Jun 21 2016, 10:45 AM

I would say Essex and the military bases in South Hampshire are probably more likely to trend Leave (Portsmouth City Council has actually been the only council in the country to endorse leaving) than places like Sunderland.

Posted by: Qassändra Jun 21 2016, 11:01 AM

QUOTE(LexC @ Jun 21 2016, 11:45 AM) *
I would say Essex and the military bases in South Hampshire are probably more likely to trend Leave (Portsmouth City Council has actually been the only council in the country to endorse leaving) than places like Sunderland.

Havering Council have too, and I'd be shocked if Thanet Council (which is Ukip-run) hadn't either.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Jun 21 2016, 05:25 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Jun 20 2016, 10:12 PM) *
I'd love to stay up to watch the results as they come in, unfortunately as I've got a test the next day I'll have to make do with just catching the very start and the very end.

So will I.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jun 21 2016, 08:06 PM

SKY news doing a 10 minute piece on bournemouth with fervent old leavers on a tour: "out at any cost cos of the immigrants next door being loud" pretty much.

It was a fair item overall, but i had to splutter at the jobless denizens in boscombe blaming EU citizens for taking the jobs they dont want to do and spoiling the area. Boscombe, sweetie darlings, was a shit-hole 25 years ago and has marginally improved since. Back then it was Scousers (who incidentaļly i have great love for) who were advertised to come and claim benefits by the seaside by a social housing entreprenour, now a multi millionaire who owns huge quantities of tax-payer supported rental flats. Not the EU. The root cause of this was Right To Buy as literally half the council houses in bournemouth were sold at half price paid for by the tax payer. I, for my sins, get paid to provide running totals of council houses and this is a fact any FOI request will be confirmed (by me) tongue.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 21 2016, 08:13 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jun 21 2016, 09:06 PM) *
SKY news doing a 10 minute piece on bournemouth with fervent old leavers on a tour: "out at any cost cos of the immigrants next door being loud" pretty much.

It was a fair item overall, but i had to splutter at the jobless denizens in boscombe blaming EU citizens for taking the jobs they dont want to do and spoiling the area. Boscombe, sweetie darlings, was a shit-hole 25 years ago and has marginally improved since. Back then it was Scousers (who incidentaļly i have great love for) who were advertised to come and claim benefits by the seaside by a social housing entreprenour, now a multi millionaire who owns huge quantities of tax-payer supported rental flats. Not the EU. The root cause of this was Right To Buy as literally half the council houses in bournemouth were sold at half price paid for by the tax payer. I, for my sins, get paid to provide running totals of council houses and this is a fact any FOI request will be confirmed (by me) tongue.gif

I'm sure if you went back 200 years you would hear Bournemouth residents complaining about interlopers from Dorchester.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 21 2016, 08:22 PM

If Leave wins on Thursday, we may indeed see a reduction in immigration, but not for the reasons people might want. After all, if the economy crashes in splendid isolation, the UK will be a less attractive place for potential immigrants. It is the relative strength of the economy (plus the fact that a lot of Europeans learn English at school) that makes this country such a good place to come.

The i have been printing comments from readers saying how they will vote. One reader said that, having spoken to their grandchildren, they would be voting to Leave. They complained that the culture of this country has changed over the last forty years. Thankfully, they are right. It has changed. It is a lot easier to be gay in the UK than it was in the 1970s. There is a lot less blatant racism than there was. Any town of a reasonable size has a choice of restaurants of varying types. The days when "pub food" meant a cheese sandwich that looked as if it was made two days ago are gone. It is now possible to discuss the latest Swedish television crime drama with friends. So yes, the culture of this country has changed. For the better.

Posted by: Danny Jun 21 2016, 08:26 PM

No-one on the Remain side in this debate is doing anything to convince me why I should vote Remain, except Frances O'Grady on rare occasions.

No, Sadiq Khan, various big businesses who've never done anything for the country threatening to throw their toys out of the pram if we don't do as they say, is not convincing me.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 21 2016, 09:53 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jun 21 2016, 09:26 PM) *
No-one on the Remain side in this debate is doing anything to convince me why I should vote Remain, except Frances O'Grady on rare occasions.

No, Sadiq Khan, various big businesses who've never done anything for the country threatening to throw their toys out of the pram if we don't do as they say, is not convincing me.


I didn't watch it, but everyone tells me Leave won despite also having no credible answers to questions.

Personally, the debates have been a whole waste of time. At this point I think Brexit supporters believe we will be the central hub to the world if we vote to leave. And that money grows on trees. Had various discussions with people tonight who think shrinking our economy is good and will make wages go up for the working class. And also we were the 5th biggest economy in 1965 before the EU so everything will be fine. Mental.

Posted by: Danny Jun 21 2016, 10:15 PM

QUOTE(Rooney @ Jun 21 2016, 10:53 PM) *
I didn't watch it, but everyone tells me Leave won despite also having no credible answers to questions.

Personally, the debates have been a whole waste of time. At this point I think Brexit supporters believe we will be the central hub to the world if we vote to leave. And that money grows on trees. Had various discussions with people tonight who think shrinking our economy is good and will make wages go up for the working class. And also we were the 5th biggest economy in 1965 before the EU so everything will be fine. Mental.


But the problem is that, for a hell of a lot of people, the economy is already ruined. If there is no chance of a decent job with prospects on the horizon, and even the public services that were providing the most basic of help are being endlessly cut back by the politicians, what is there to lose by taking a risk??

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 21 2016, 10:34 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jun 21 2016, 11:15 PM) *
But the problem is that, for a hell of a lot of people, the economy is already ruined. If there is no chance of a decent job with prospects on the horizon, and even the public services that were providing the most basic of help are being endlessly cut back by the politicians, what is there to lose by taking a risk??

Given that the risk is handing control of the economy to some of the most enthusiastic supporters of reducing spending on public services and privatising the NHS, that's one hell of a risk. Believe me, there is an awful lot left to lose.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 21 2016, 11:10 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jun 21 2016, 11:15 PM) *
But the problem is that, for a hell of a lot of people, the economy is already ruined. If there is no chance of a decent job with prospects on the horizon, and even the public services that were providing the most basic of help are being endlessly cut back by the politicians, what is there to lose by taking a risk??


I've had this argument said to me as well. And I agree, there's so much to lose. People seem to think wages will go up and house prices fall. The latter, maybe, ever so lightly, but I cannot see the former happening at all. These problems are not EU based, although people find a way to link it back to the EU. Shrinking our economy means redundancies.

Posted by: Kath Jun 21 2016, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jun 21 2016, 11:34 PM) *
Given that the risk is handing control of the economy to some of the most enthusiastic supporters of reducing spending on public services and privatising the NHS, that's one hell of a risk. Believe me, there is an awful lot left to lose.


Got a Brexit leaflet through the door today and one of the points they were making out was "the £350m we spend on the EU could be used for the NHS" or words to that effect. Note though the word 'COULD' was used - not 'WILL'. Like someone put on FB - 'If you think the NHS is safe in the hands of Johnson, Gove and IDS .... I have some magic beans to sell you'.

The leaflet went in the bin after I let the cat play with it for a bit!

Posted by: Harve Jun 22 2016, 06:19 AM

https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/745385089069125633

(that emoticon has a link)

Posted by: Oliver Jun 22 2016, 08:35 AM

QUOTE(Kath @ Jun 22 2016, 12:15 AM) *
Got a Brexit leaflet through the door today and one of the points they were making out was "the £350m we spend on the EU could be used for the NHS" or words to that effect. Note though the word 'COULD' was used - not 'WILL'. Like someone put on FB - 'If you think the NHS is safe in the hands of Johnson, Gove and IDS .... I have some magic beans to sell you'.


That's what I've noticed with this the entire time. I don't think I've ever heard the Leave campaign say they WILL spend the money on this, they WILL spend it on that. It's all "COULD do this, COULD do that".

I COULD go and get in my car and mow 10 people down, doesn't mean I WILL do it. rolleyes.gif

"We COULD use the £350 million on the NHS" is exactly the same as saying "we COULD pocket the £350 million for ourselves". It's not giving a definite answer, which we need when people are wanting to change from what we're doing.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 22 2016, 09:02 AM

QUOTE(Kath @ Jun 22 2016, 12:15 AM) *
Got a Brexit leaflet through the door today and one of the points they were making out was "the £350m we spend on the EU could be used for the NHS" or words to that effect. Note though the word 'COULD' was used - not 'WILL'. Like someone put on FB - 'If you think the NHS is safe in the hands of Johnson, Gove and IDS .... I have some magic beans to sell you'.

The leaflet went in the bin after I let the cat play with it for a bit!

Can the Leave campaign explain to us why the EU would want to send us £100m per month (the rebate we get on our contribution) if we leave?

Posted by: popchartfreak Jun 22 2016, 09:20 AM

Brexit can say COULD to anything because they arent the government, this is not a general election and they have made no promises about anything that they can carry out. They just make it sound as though they can.

They are appealing to people who dont have much knowledge or interest in the complexities of the world and are angry. Angry people who react with no regard for consequences history shows is almost always a disaster for them and for everyone else.

Posted by: Silas Jun 22 2016, 11:39 AM

QUOTE(Harve @ Jun 22 2016, 07:19 AM) *
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/745385089069125633

(that emoticon has a link)

Now there's a real shocker!

I think that's a marker of them understanding, at last, that north of the border is both pro-eu and very apathetic to this farce of a referendum. Plus just how much of a risk Brexit is for the future of the U.K.

Posted by: Kath Jun 22 2016, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jun 22 2016, 10:02 AM) *
Can the Leave campaign explain to us why the EU would want to send us £100m per month (the rebate we get on our contribution) if we leave?

I'm getting quite concerned now about the outcome. Not so much for myself or people of my age - but for the younger generation(s). I just think to leave is absolute madness and I've been quite surprised at some of the people I know and come into contact with - who I felt sure had more sense - are going to vote out.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Jun 22 2016, 05:12 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-results-what-are-they-when-will-they-be-announced-latest-live-brexit-remain-leave-a7095441.html

The map shows that in the event of a tied result, Sunderland would vote 53-47 for Leave. The most anti-EU constituency would be Fenland, with a 69-31 vote for Leave. Hartlepool reveals at 01:30, and is indicated at 61-39 for Leave, so it could be a big indicator. The City of Edinburgh is the most pro-EU region, showing a result of 74-26 for Remain.

Also, Oxford and Cambridge both show results of over 70-30 for Remain. Just saying...

Posted by: popchartfreak Jun 22 2016, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(Kath @ Jun 22 2016, 05:47 PM) *
I'm getting quite concerned now about the outcome. Not so much for myself or people of my age - but for the younger generation(s). I just think to leave is absolute madness and I've been quite surprised at some of the people I know and come into contact with - who I felt sure had more sense - are going to vote out.

Same here. When you try to have a sensible conversation about facts background history and issues their eyes glaze over, thy mumble red tape, immigrants, freedom and have no concern about wht happens to young people, they genuinely dont care or just have faith based on someone telling them wht they want to hear. Others moan about lies, nd when i suggest they go online and do some research fr themselves, just make excuses and say tv should tell them the truth, thy havent got time.

I despair.....

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 22 2016, 07:20 PM

Slightly apropos of nothing, but I've just stumbled upon another Yes Minister clip regarding the EU which still has me in stitches every time. Might be a little bit close to the knuckle though (as I imagine it was even then).


Posted by: marcin Jun 23 2016, 01:24 PM

If the UK decides to leave the EU, it will be a disaster for all of us.
It will mean that the world isn't going in the right direction of peace, reunification and cooperation.
The question should be: do you prefer building bridges or walls.
I'm really hopeful the EU stays strong as it is.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 23 2016, 02:13 PM

QUOTE(marcin @ Jun 23 2016, 02:24 PM) *
If the UK decides to leave the EU, it will be a disaster for all of us.
It will mean that the world isn't going in the right direction of peace, reunification and cooperation.
The question should be: do you prefer building bridges or walls.
I'm really hopeful the EU stays strong as it is.

Some of us have done our best.

Posted by: popchartfreak Sep 6 2016, 12:18 PM

So no immigration points system, no extra NHS money (it's getting less), faremers & co are subsidised only until 2020, Obama has repeated his asserion that EU comes first, Japanese countries and the banks are still itchy about moving to Europe based on nothing whatsoever being talked about or reassured, the rest of the world still thinks we're mad, our touted deals with China are looking expensive and ridiculously naive, the EU is not keen to give way on anything in fear of Breaking Up if the Uk gets a sweetheart deal, and with elections and increasing racist rightwing politics in Europe and the USA to follow the British murdering MP's/murdering Polish people/attacking demonstrations against violence, farage has taken his vile politics to other elections in the world after criticizing at length American and European leaders for doing that, he still draws his EU salary, Johnson, Davies & co can't agree what Brexit Means Brexit or is it Biscuits Means Biscuits (presumably not the foreign-owned former-British Biscuits), the pound has still not recovered (and this will mean less money for everyone via inflation), interest rates are at an all-time historical (going back centuries) low and no sign of going up, just a threat of going negative, and Theresa May Not should be renamed, she's just trying to avoid a Tory split.

So, what part of Project Fear was a lie, and what part of Leave Campaigns wasn't a lie?

We haven't even left yet and the Glass Half Full idiots still merrily think all will be fine on the grounds that if they don't keep parroting it, and telling us to stop whineging about losing the referendum they will have to admit they are all morons for falling for the lies of Johnson Gove and Farage.


Posted by: popchartfreak Sep 7 2016, 08:27 PM

We have a positive Brexit story!

Australia wants to do a trade deal with the UK in 2 and a half years (after leaving the EU)!

fabulous! We can all rest assured our future is now secure! That means we can get pour hands on raw materials like lead and gold (along with China and the rest of the world) and presumably all the frozen lamb chops we can eat (cos we don't have sheep in the UK), and we can trade our goods like errr, well, whatever it is we have to sell to a few thousand people on the other side of the world to make up for losing 500 million customers.

Yay.......

(NB: Australia also says the UK deal will take place after the EU trade deal has been sorted, cos you know, 500 million vs 65 million, so that means we get a trade deal of unknown benefit after we would have gotten a better deal as part of a huge bloc)

Posted by: Suedehead2 Sep 7 2016, 08:39 PM

Think of all that kangaroo steak we can eat.

Posted by: popchartfreak Sep 10 2016, 09:45 AM

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-business-is-too-lazy-and-fat-and-prefers-to-play-golf-says-liam-fox-tbqpt5r97?shareToken=8efa3aa4dd77d391b6dcead39f6b772c

So, the questions are...

a) Is Fox trying to get himself sacked because he realises his job is impossible and he wants to be able to blame someone else?

b) How come he was saying the UK was a marvellous success and we could prosper outside the EU (5th biggest economy in the world) 3 months ago, and now according to those doing the deals (Brexit big knobs) UK trade is run by lazy arses and workers are lazy arses? 3 months is a pretty big about turn for such a key issue?

c) why has he not handed over the charity cash to servicemen that is currently "resting in his account" and being used as a personal credit card facility?

d) Has he been lying tosspot about many issues this year or he is just a completely useless greedy self-centred former-disgraced-Minister-Of-Defence-best-mates-on-foreign-business-pushing-their-firms-and-not-even-elected-to-be-in-on-UK-defence-ministry-secrets-and-contracts idiot who hasn't two brain cells to rub together enough to cause a spark of humanity sitting in his vast empty skull? Metaphorically speaking.

I can't make up my mind and would welcome clarity...

Posted by: Suedehead2 Sep 10 2016, 10:12 AM

And, in the meantime, going abroad could be about to get more expensive and involve more hassle, aka more of that fiendish "red tape" the Leave campaigners kept complaining about.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/09/britons-may-have-to-apply-to-visit-europe-under-eu-visa-scheme

Posted by: Silas Sep 10 2016, 04:17 PM

Now I'm seriously giving weight to the idea of learning German intensively, asking work for a secondment to the German firm and jumping through the necessary hoops to get my hands on that passport.

Posted by: popchartfreak Sep 10 2016, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 10 2016, 11:12 AM) *
And, in the meantime, going abroad could be about to get more expensive and involve more hassle, aka more of that fiendish "red tape" the Leave campaigners kept complaining about.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/09/britons-may-have-to-apply-to-visit-europe-under-eu-visa-scheme


that would be a pain in the arse. The reason I switched to Spain as my holiday destination of choice is the wave yer passport easy option, from plane to bus stop inside 25 minutes. Florida travel became a bloody nightmare, advance tedious forms to fill in, credit card fees, long flight then ages standing in line to get past grim-faced suspicious customs officers, getting fingerprinted, photographed and bending over to get an internal examination before going to collect luggage.

One of those items is not true, the rest are.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Sep 11 2016, 09:07 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Sep 10 2016, 08:04 PM) *
that would be a pain in the arse. The reason I switched to Spain as my holiday destination of choice is the wave yer passport easy option, from plane to bus stop inside 25 minutes. Florida travel became a bloody nightmare, advance tedious forms to fill in, credit card fees, long flight then ages standing in line to get past grim-faced suspicious customs officers, getting fingerprinted, photographed and bending over to get an internal examination before going to collect luggage.

One of those items is not true, the rest are.

Finger printing I presume, thought they'd switched to iris scanners.

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 9 2016, 09:07 PM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/europe/for-britains-brexit-bunch-the-party-just-ended.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/wILuCnrhPN

so, according to intelligent people in the rest of the world, the UK is deluded and f***ed. And every single word said in the Leave Brexit campaign was a lie. Not even one thing was true.....

Altogether now...

"Always Look On The Bright Siiiiide of Life"

Posted by: Doctor Blind Oct 9 2016, 09:17 PM

Brexit means Breakfast... !


Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 9 2016, 09:46 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Oct 9 2016, 10:07 PM) *
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/europe/for-britains-brexit-bunch-the-party-just-ended.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/wILuCnrhPN

so, according to intelligent people in the rest of the world, the UK is deluded and f***ed. And every single word said in the Leave Brexit campaign was a lie. Not even one thing was true.....

Altogether now...

"Always Look On The Bright Siiiiide of Life"

And we have a PM who thought the same thing a few short months ago, but has now changed her mind so completely that she now wants as little to do with the EU as possible. We also have a leader of the opposition whose first reaction to the referendum result was to say that the PM should invoke Article 50 immediately, thereby making it more difficult to ask her about her dramatic volte face.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Oct 9 2016, 09:56 PM

The whole thing's a mess. I'm going to crawl under a mattress with a packet of Battenberg until everything blows over. Thankfully, I've learned that despite its name, Battenberg is a British cake, so Brexit can't take that away from me.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Oct 9 2016, 10:00 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 9 2016, 10:56 PM) *
The whole thing's a mess. I'm going to crawl under a mattress with a packet of Battenberg until everything blows over. Thankfully, I've learned that despite its name, Battenberg is a British cake, so Brexit can't take that away from me.


Unfortunately as Battenberg is also a town in Germany Amber Rudd will call round tomorrow to destroy all any Battenberg's you have in your storage cupboards and existing stock will be expunged. Anybody caught eating one will be put on a list and sent to Milton Keynes.

Posted by: Qassändra Oct 9 2016, 10:04 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 9 2016, 10:46 PM) *
And we have a PM who thought the same thing a few short months ago, but has now changed her mind so completely that she now wants as little to do with the EU as possible. We also have a leader of the opposition whose first reaction to the referendum result was to say that the PM should invoke Article 50 immediately, thereby making it more difficult to ask her about her dramatic volte face.

Oh as if she ever thought the same.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Oct 10 2016, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 9 2016, 11:00 PM) *
Unfortunately as Battenberg is also a town in Germany Amber Rudd will call round tomorrow to destroy all any Battenberg's you have in your storage cupboards and existing stock will be expunged. Anybody caught eating one will be put on a list and sent to Milton Keynes.


Fortunately, the Cake Lobby anticipated such a situation arising, and enacted Emergency Protocol 50, which states that if a foreign sounding cake is in danger from Rudd's Pantry Raids, its name will be Anglicized in order to avoid unfair destruction. Unfortunately, the alternative name it christened the cake with, The "British Puke Window", failed to capture the public's imagination.

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 10 2016, 06:36 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 9 2016, 10:46 PM) *
And we have a PM who thought the same thing a few short months ago, but has now changed her mind so completely that she now wants as little to do with the EU as possible. We also have a leader of the opposition whose first reaction to the referendum result was to say that the PM should invoke Article 50 immediately, thereby making it more difficult to ask her about her dramatic volte face.


I look forward to PM May getting the traditional Pres Trump greeting he reserves for ladies and grabbing her by Mrs Slocombe's cat. That should secure those extra trade deals teresa.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 10 2016, 07:06 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 10 2016, 07:31 PM) *
Fortunately, the Cake Lobby anticipated such a situation arising, and enacted Emergency Protocol 50, which states that if a foreign sounding cake is in danger from Rudd's Pantry Raids, its name will be Anglicized in order to avoid unfair destruction. Unfortunately, the alternative name it christened the cake with, The "British Puke Window", failed to capture the public's imagination.

Didn't the Cake Lobby split following the 2016 Bake Off Crisis?

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 12 2016, 05:35 PM

170 questions from Labour to Tories about Brexit.

Shame they are 6 months too late, that Corbyn failed to pose them before the referendum, and that he offers no answers to any of the questions should he on the very very remote chance become Prime Minister.

Anyone can ask a question. How about actual policy statements on what Labour would DO.

The Tories meanwhile have already stated Brexit means hard Brexit and they have no intention of taking advice from anyone else, or telling the voters what they will do, or let the elected members of the public have a say in it.

May, in fact, has questioned the citizenship of anyone who feels themselves members of the Planet Earth, and the press have now singled out pro-EU politicians for the same presumable treatment as Jo Cox. Teresa May said nothing during the brexerendum fairly obviously because she was more froth-mouthed Brexit than Farage and was biding her time....

I actually miss democracy, such fond memories of being able to express an opinion without being labelled a traitor and shot.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 12 2016, 06:04 PM

The Leave campaigners kept telling us that the referendum was about "taking back control" for the UK parliament. They didn't tell us that it would be a uniquely Tory interpretation of taking back control whereby the biggest post-referendum decision wouldn't be made by parliament at all.

Of course, it gets worse. May has announced hew "Great Repeal Bill", a typically naff American-style name just to show people how we aren't European any more. The intention is that all European legislation will be incorporated into UK law. So far, so reasonable. The plan is that individual pieces of legislation can then be repealed. However, it has been suggested that the government won't actually do anything as vulgar as allowing parliament to discuss which pieces of legislation will be repealed. Instead they will be repealed by the stroke of a minister's pen.

Perhaps Ms May could let us know exactly what "control" parliament will have taken back.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Oct 12 2016, 06:47 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Oct 12 2016, 05:35 PM) *
I actually miss democracy, such fond memories of being able to express an opinion without being labelled a traitor and shot.

Yes, those were the good old days. Still, it's better to be a traitor than to be an idiot, I suppose.

Posted by: Silas Oct 12 2016, 07:04 PM

The fall out of this referendum has been particularly vicious and nasty. I think a lot of it is because of the nature of the 'debate' that occurred that has been fanned by the far right press. We've ended up with a referendum on immigration and not on the facts.

Every time I think about this referendum, the media, the government (westminster), UKIP and the bigotry that has gripped this country I get unspeakably angry and ashamed to be British. Honestly disgusted by this country since this referendum started.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Oct 12 2016, 07:18 PM

During parliament, Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, a Brexiteer, was reminded by Labour MP Chris Bryant that his constituency of North East Somerset had voted to remain in the EU. Here is what he said:

QUOTE
You should check the record. Unfortunately north east Somerset was not counted separately. We were infected by the votes of people in Bath. I’m pretty confident that the wise people of rural Somerset voted to leave whilst the urbanites in Bath voted to remain.


"Oh yes, we're all wise Brexiteers but those remainer Bathonians are a virus on the rest of Brexiteer North East Somerset. My constituency would have voted leave if it weren't for those filthy infectious Bathonian urbanist remainers."

Idiot.

Posted by: Silas Oct 12 2016, 07:31 PM

What a cuntwaffle.

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 12 2016, 08:08 PM

Never liked the little weasel politically. He can occasionaly be amusing, but then so can johnson and farage. He is a spoilt rich upper class chinless cliche

Posted by: Qassändra Oct 12 2016, 08:46 PM

So, that whole food prices thing is happening a lot sooner than I thought it would. Albeit, in a roundabout way to begin with, but give it time.

QUOTE(FT)
The plummeting pound is threatening UK households’ supplies of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream and Marmite spread, as Tesco, the country’s biggest supermarket, pulled dozens of products from sale online in a row over who should bear the cost of the weakening currency.

Unilever has demanded steep price increases to offset the higher cost of imported commodities, which are priced in euros and dollars, according to executives at multiple supermarket groups.

But Tesco signalled it would fight the rises, removing Unilever products from its website and warning that some of the items could disappear from shelves if the dispute dragged on. Other supermarkets have warned that they could follow suit.

Britain’s biggest grocer is led by Dave Lewis, a former Unilever “lifer” who ran the Anglo-Dutch company’s personal care business, overseeing brands that include Dove soap, Signal toothpaste and Tresemmé shampoo.

He had been seen as a potential successor to Paul Polman, chief executive of Unilever, before he jumped ship to Tesco two years ago.

The pound has fallen 17 per cent since Britain voted to leave the EU. Officials cautioned ahead of the June 23 referendum that a vote for Brexit would cause food prices to rise, a warning that Eurosceptic MPs have dismissed as “scaremongering”.

Mr Lewis signalled last week that he was limbering up for a fight with suppliers that tried to use the fall in sterling to push through price increases.

He said many of them had failed to pass on currency benefits to consumers when sterling was on the way up, and that he was “uncomfortable” with efforts to raise prices on the way down.

“That’s the way you have to negotiate,” said Bruno Monteyne, an analyst at Bernstein. “You have to draw a line in the sand and say, ‘OK, we’re going to delist you.’”

An executive at another British supermarket group said Unilever had threatened to cut off its entire supply unless it agreed to an across-the-board price increase of 10 per cent. He said the retailer would consider banishing Unilever products from its stores rather than comply with the ultimatum.

Unilever declined to comment on its negotiations with supermarkets.

Tesco said in a statement: “We are currently experiencing availability issues on a number of Unilever products. We always work to ensure customers get the best possible prices and we hope to have this issue resolved soon.”

An executive at another consumer goods manufacturer said Unilever would probably regard Tesco’s action as a negotiating tactic rather than a serious threat.

Mr Monteyne agreed that, while Tesco’s size gave it a strong negotiating position, the grocer would ultimately be forced to reach a compromise.

“Unilever is very big and Tesco can’t get around not working with them,” he said. “Dave Lewis might be wanting to show he’s not shying away from his former employer, but really, there’s much more at stake.”


Oh god, I can't believe we're about to go through all of this just to stop Polish people coming over here to work in sectors that already have massive skills and recruitment shortfalls.

Posted by: Silas Oct 12 2016, 08:51 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 12 2016, 08:04 PM) *
Every time I think about this referendum, the media, the government (westminster), UKIP and the bigotry that has gripped this country I get unspeakably angry and ashamed to be British. Honestly disgusted by this country since this referendum started.

I stand by this earlier comment in light of Tesco's news.

We've utterly destroyed our future for an illusion of control.

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 13 2016, 10:19 AM

QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 12 2016, 09:51 PM) *
I stand by this earlier comment in light of Tesco's news.

We've utterly destroyed our future for an illusion of control.



Oh don't be so melodramatic. You're talking as if Brexit's World III or something. rolleyes.gif Everything will be fine and our new great PM will see to that. She'll make sure they don't sell us short. It's the best decision we ever made and I'm proud to have voted to leave.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 13 2016, 10:24 AM

Our great new PM? Has Theresa May resigned already?

Posted by: Qassändra Oct 13 2016, 10:28 AM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 13 2016, 11:19 AM) *
Oh don't be so melodramatic. You're talking as if Brexit's World III or something. rolleyes.gif Everything will be fine and our new great PM will see to that. She'll make sure they don't sell us short. It's the best decision we ever made and I'm proud to have voted to leave.

January is going to hit you like a truck.

Posted by: Silas Oct 13 2016, 10:49 AM

Shame it's just metaphorical. Real one might knock some sense into him.

The SNP have confirmed they will vote against the repeal bill, as they should given that every single area of Scotland voted remain, and their red line is Single Market access.

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 13 2016, 11:47 AM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 13 2016, 11:19 AM) *
Oh don't be so melodramatic. You're talking as if Brexit's World III or something. rolleyes.gif Everything will be fine and our new great PM will see to that. She'll make sure they don't sell us short. It's the best decision we ever made and I'm proud to have voted to leave.


Ha! Who's the one being melodramatic...! WW3 as if.

Everything will be fine if you dont have to buy groceries on a budget. Otherwise you will be struggling. Exactly HOW does FrankenMay have control over what private companies charge? Is she going to privatise them all? Of course not, don't be ridiculous, they can and will charge exactly whatever it takes to make a profit, and that means prices going up in the UK. Just bought some euros for holiday - airports now charging LESS than a euro to the pound.

Everything's fine then....and we havent done single thing, triggered anything, negotiated anything, agreed anything.

Glad you're proud. I'm proud I have the capacity to reason and think for myself rather than let a load of rich tories & foreign billionaires do it for me. As long as you're happy having less money to spend, though.

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 13 2016, 04:00 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Oct 13 2016, 12:47 PM) *
Glad you're proud. I'm proud I have the capacity to reason and think for myself rather than let a load of rich tories & foreign billionaires do it for me. As long as you're happy having less money to spend, though.



They had nothing to do with me voting out though. I can think and reason things out for myself too. The reason I and all other people I know around here voted out was because we can see all the East European immigrants that have come here to East London, mainly from Poland and Romania, in recent years. Some are living 10-15 to a house. It has to stop as it's such a strain on our services. It's not racist either as most are white people. I actually know a family through walking my dog. Nice people but we can't do with them all here.

Posted by: Silas Oct 13 2016, 04:15 PM

FOR THE LAST f***ING TIME. MIGRATION ALONE IS NOT A STRAIN ON PUBLIC SERVICES. THESE MIGRANTS CONTRIBUTE MORE TAX TO THESE SERVICES IN A DAY THAN YOU EVER HAVE IN YOUR WHOLE f***ING LIFE. PUBLIC SERVICES ARE UNDER PRESSURE BECAUSE SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS HAVE UNDERFUNDED THEM.


Urgh. Stop believing the utter lies of the right wing press. Yes our services are strained, but they're strained because of austerity and chronic underfunding. This problem pre-dates the 2004 expansion of the EU and will continue after we leave the EU. Leaving the EU will not solve our problems because it's the bogeyman, the fall guy and not the cause. It's not even the symptom.

Posted by: Silas Oct 13 2016, 04:16 PM

And google xenophobia. It's what you call inter-race racism and is just as bad as racism.

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 13 2016, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 13 2016, 05:15 PM) *
FOR THE LAST f***ING TIME. MIGRATION ALONE IS NOT A STRAIN ON PUBLIC SERVICES. THESE MIGRANTS CONTRIBUTE MORE TAX TO THESE SERVICES IN A DAY THAN YOU EVER HAVE IN YOUR WHOLE f***ING LIFE. PUBLIC SERVICES ARE UNDER PRESSURE BECAUSE SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS HAVE UNDERFUNDED THEM.



No need to shout. Did I say it was the only strain? Yes, public services need more money but the more people needing to use them is of course a strain. That's common sense.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 13 2016, 04:33 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 13 2016, 05:25 PM) *
No need to shout. Did I say it was the only strain? Yes, public services need more money but the more people needing to use them is of course a strain. That's common sense.

And who do you think is providing those services? If you meet an immigrant in a hospital, they are probably a member of staff.

Posted by: Silas Oct 13 2016, 04:50 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 13 2016, 05:25 PM) *
No need to shout. Did I say it was the only strain? Yes, public services need more money but the more people needing to use them is of course a strain. That's common sense.

Apparently there is because you don't listen otherwise.

It's 👋 only 👋 A 👋 strain 👋 because 👋 we 👋 don't 👋 invest 👋 in 👋 line 👋 with 👋 population 👋 growth

Posted by: PeaceMob Oct 13 2016, 04:53 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 13 2016, 05:33 PM) *
And who do you think is providing those services? If you meet an immigrant in a hospital, they are probably a member of staff.

That's why we have British-trained nurses and doctors having to find work in Australia or Canada rather than the NHS putting British workers first.

Posted by: Silas Oct 13 2016, 05:02 PM

Those workers seek work abroad because of the low pay and truly horrendous conditions they work under because there isn't enough staff because the government won't pay for enough staff. Did the junior doctors strike just pass you by entirely or were you too busy reading the mail and express?

Posted by: Doctor Blind Oct 13 2016, 05:47 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 13 2016, 05:00 PM) *
It has to stop as it's such a strain on our services.


The irony here is that on our health service in particular the strain is being taken NOT caused by immigrants.

Many (Across the UK, EU immigrants make up 10% of registered doctors and 4% of registered nurses) of which provide the vital health cover needed to treat our rapidly ageing population which is increasingly obese and prone to preventative diseases such as diabetes because we have such poor diets. Whereas those coming here are often young, fit and healthy and provide little or no burden on the NHS.

Of course that inconvenient fact wouldn't fit with your narrow and ignorant world view Chris.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 13 2016, 06:05 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 05:53 PM) *
That's why we have British-trained nurses and doctors having to find work in Australia or Canada rather than the NHS putting British workers first.

No, they're going because life as a doctor in Australia is rather easier than it is here. And, of course, most Australians have the good fortune not to know who Jeremy Hunt is.

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 13 2016, 07:36 PM

...and I'd add the Australians and Canadians don't moan about all the foreign doctors and nurses (ie UK citizens) coming over and taking all their jobs - they want them, just as we in the Uk want trained staff who are willing to work for what we are prepared to pay for, despite being slagged off and hard pressed because we have a government that wont pay enough.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 14 2016, 07:36 PM

An open letter to the Mail and Express posted by someone on Facebook...

QUOTE
Dear Daily Mail & Daily Express,

Come and silence me. Come and literally silence me.

I'm university educated, I'm a professional, I have a basic understanding of several foreign languages. I don't wear glasses yet, but if it helps to satisfy your desire for a Cambodian-esque genocide any more, I'm more than happy to borrow some.

But much worse than any of these failings, I have the audacity to disagree with you.

What could be more deserving of being silenced?

On the other hand, you represent literally everything this country has stood against in living memory. You are vile, you are despicable.

You stir up hatred and pander to the lowest common denominator. You attempt to suppress democracy and the rule of law. You aim to subvert the sovereignty of the UK's parliamentary democracy.

You alienate and vilify valuable members of British society, and you actively pursue the decimation of the British economy.

You are against everything and everyone, and you are FOR nothing.

You, and all of your staff, are the embodiment of the malevolent fascism and evil despotism that this country has fought to destroy.

You are the enemy within. There is nothing in this country less British than you. There is nobody more worthy of being "silenced" in this country than you.

And yet those of us that you want to silence have the honour, the self respect and the integrity to know that your vile ideas cannot be truly silenced. They must be engaged and defeated. Time after time.

You are just a sad relic of the Britain we learnt about in History. The parts of Britain that we have always been ashamed of and never want to repeat.


I agree with him totally.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Oct 15 2016, 08:59 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 14 2016, 07:36 PM) *
An open letter to the Mail and Express posted by someone on Facebook...
I agree with him totally.

That letter is brilliant. I like how he/she demonstrates his/her anger while restraining him/herself at the same time.


Posted by: Taylor Jago Oct 16 2016, 08:08 AM

Now, I'll try my hand at writing a response to the Daily Mail:

"Dear Daily Mail

First, let me introduce myself: my name is Taylor Jago, I am 15 years old, I was born in Northampton, I live in a small village in Seine-Maritime and I go to high school in Dieppe.

Young, I hear you say! Living in France, I hear you say! Pursuing education, I hear you say! He is not British! A Britishman has never left these isles.

But that's where you're wrong, Daily Mail. While I may hold the Citoyenneté française, I am as British as you are.

As you may have guessed by the information about me that you know, I was, and still am, very much in favour of the United Kingdom remaining in the European Union. That, according to your recent headline, makes me whingering and unpatriotic.

No, I am not whingering. No, I am not unpatriotic. One of my friends is excited for Brexit because he can't wait for the UK to commit economic suicide. If I was unpatriotic, I'd be agreeing with him. After all, since I am a dual national, I will keep my EU citizenship and every benefit that the British will soon lose. I could simply not care. But I do care, because I love this country. And it is precisely because I am patriotic that I am against Brexit. And if that makes me contemptuous, then so be it. If that makes my voice and opinion "infect on the will of the British people", then so be it.

I never wanted Brexit during the referendum campaign. I didn't accept Brexit on June 24th. I have never, and will never accept Brexit, and I am far from the only one. Because I am European. Every person in Britain is European, whether you like it or not.

But just remember this, Daily Mail: my generation is the generation which didn't believe your lies. My generation is the generation which believes in an united Europe. While we may have lost a battle, we have not lost the fight. And one day, our voice will be louder, and we will be able to undo the idiotic decision you and others misled 17 million people into making.

When that day comes, I'll take the weekend off and drive up north to the city of Brussels. I'll dine in a nice restaurant, and sleep in a nice hotel. The Brexiteers's defeat will be a moment to celebrate.

But until then, we'll see our country fall into disarray, because of you. And then, we'll pick up the pieces. We'll mend our relationship with Europe. It will take time, but it will be all worth it in the end.

Make no mistake, Daily Mail: there will be not Brexit flag upon our door, we're Europeans, always will be."

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 16 2016, 09:51 AM

QUOTE(Taylor Jago @ Oct 16 2016, 09:08 AM) *
Now, I'll try my hand at writing a response to the Daily Mail:

"Dear Daily Mail

First, let me introduce myself: my name is Taylor Jago, I am 15 years old, I was born in Northampton, I live in a small village in Seine-Maritime and I go to high school in Dieppe.

Young, I hear you say! Living in France, I hear you say! Pursuing education, I hear you say! He is not British! A Britishman has never left these isles.

But that's where you're wrong, Daily Mail. While I may hold the Citoyenneté française, I am as British as you are.

As you may have guessed by the information about me that you know, I was, and still am, very much in favour of the United Kingdom remaining in the European Union. That, according to your recent headline, makes me whingering and unpatriotic.

No, I am not whingering. No, I am not unpatriotic. One of my friends is excited for Brexit because he can't wait for the UK to commit economic suicide. If I was unpatriotic, I'd be agreeing with him. After all, since I am a dual national, I will keep my EU citizenship and every benefit that the British will soon lose. I could simply not care. But I do care, because I love this country. And it is precisely because I am patriotic that I am against Brexit. And if that makes me contemptuous, then so be it. If that makes my voice and opinion "infect on the will of the British people", then so be it.

I never wanted Brexit during the referendum campaign. I didn't accept Brexit on June 24th. I have never, and will never accept Brexit, and I am far from the only one. Because I am European. Every person in Britain is European, whether you like it or not.

But just remember this, Daily Mail: my generation is the generation which didn't believe your lies. My generation is the generation which believes in an united Europe. While we may have lost a battle, we have not lost the fight. And one day, our voice will be louder, and we will be able to undo the idiotic decision you and others misled 17 million people into making.

When that day comes, I'll take the weekend off and drive up north to the city of Brussels. I'll dine in a nice restaurant, and sleep in a nice hotel. The Brexiteers's defeat will be a moment to celebrate.

But until then, we'll see our country fall into disarray, because of you. And then, we'll pick up the pieces. We'll mend our relationship with Europe. It will take time, but it will be all worth it in the end.

Make no mistake, Daily Mail: there will be not Brexit flag upon our door, we're Europeans, always will be."

The tragedy is that, even if nobody who voted in June changed their mind, a referendum in ten years' time would probably have supported Remain simply because your generation would have made the difference. A referendum that is so reliant on timing is not a away to make such an important decision for the future of the country.

Posted by: Taylor Jago Oct 16 2016, 10:40 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-cleese-says-the-brexit-doom-mongers-have-been-proven-wrong_uk_57fb6d4ee4b04e1174a50f4f

It's weird now to think that I liked John Cleese at the beginning of the year. What an imbecile.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Oct 17 2016, 07:44 AM

The government have now revealed how much of the mythical £350m per week will be going to the NHS. The answer is precisely nothing. Not a single penny. If anyone is surprised by this they haven't been paying attention.

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 17 2016, 08:00 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Oct 10 2016, 06:36 PM) *
I look forward to PM May getting the traditional Pres Trump greeting he reserves for ladies and grabbing her by Mrs Slocombe's cat. That should secure those extra trade deals teresa.gif


Oh noooo laugh.gif

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 17 2016, 08:01 AM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 17 2016, 07:44 AM) *
The government have now revealed how much of the mythical £350m per week will be going to the NHS. The answer is precisely nothing. Not a single penny. If anyone is surprised by this they haven't been paying attention.


Amazing people believed these lies.

Posted by: PeaceMob Oct 17 2016, 12:20 PM

Euro founder is predicting the Euro to collapse and could take down the EU too.

QUOTE
The Euro currency project is unworkable in its current form and at the risk of “collapse”, its principal architect has warned.

Professor Otmar Issing, the European Central Bank’s first chief economist who helped create the single currency at the turn of the century, has warned that the Euro cannot survive in its current form.

He said the ECB had become dangerously overextended as it tries to manage the 19 economies using the single currency.
from The Independent news website.

Posted by: Qassändra Oct 17 2016, 01:22 PM

Mario Draghi rather famously said something about that.

Posted by: Silas Oct 17 2016, 01:53 PM

I haven't seen that on the Independent but what I did see was a story on the warning that Standard & Poor's gave that it was likely that the Sterling would cease to be a reserve currency if we don't keep single market access.

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 17 2016, 04:15 PM

QUOTE(skankhunt42 @ Oct 17 2016, 09:01 AM) *
Amazing people believed these lies.



Well I certainly did and that's what we were told. I shall be writing this evening to Theresa May and marking it "Personal" and will let you know what her hand-written reply says. If true it's outrageous.

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 17 2016, 04:17 PM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 17 2016, 04:15 PM) *
Well I certainly did and that's what we were told. I shall be writing this evening to Theresa May and marking it "Personal" and will let you know what her hand-written reply says.


And we told YOU that experts are experts for a reason and Gove and other posh Etonians just follow the power and don't give a shit about people like you. They are safe for life. Believing these lies was idiotic and shows lack of critical thinking to go along with what the raga said.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Oct 17 2016, 04:22 PM

In the light of Chilcot, the expenses scandal of 2009 and numerous other examples - did you really think anything the politicians were saying was in any way true? On both sides of the argument!

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 17 2016, 04:27 PM

Well yes and I know a couple of people who voted for Brexit solely because of the NHS promise and not immigration. I think many people will like me feel angry about this. Could be an uprising. So where's the saving going to be spent then?

My sister, an electrical engineer, and my nephew, 18, are both fuming still with the Brexit decision and with me for voting out. I've assured them that everything will be okay.

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 17 2016, 04:29 PM

There ARE no savings. More than 10 years of EU contribuyions were wiped off the economy in the 24 hours following the vote. The pound is in the gutter. Business will drop out. The economy will fall even further in Brexit and the country will be a lot poorer. Thete never were any savings to be made. Just more cuts and more poverty.

Posted by: Silas Oct 17 2016, 05:52 PM

Anyone who actually believed that NHS lie and then voted leave purely on the back of that should be rounded up, put on a cruise ship with no lifeboats and then cast off in the direction of the nearest iceberg. Utter f***ing cretins.

You were told f***ing repeatedly that it was a complete and utter pack of shite from the second they first started saying it. There was never anywhere near that much money going anywhere near the bloody EU in the first place.

The more leave voters that come out with this "we were not told this, this isn't what we voted for" (you were and it was), the more I start to think dictators have things right & democracy is overrated because the great British public are clearly a shower of dribbling f***ing morons who can't even be trusted with something as simple as a public vote on the X Factor never mind something as serious as the EU membership and the future of our country.

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 17 2016, 06:05 PM

For that reason it should NEVER have been put to a public vote as the public are NOT economists and will believe any ol jingoistic shote spouted out by the Murdoch papers.

Posted by: Common Sense Oct 18 2016, 07:25 AM

QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 17 2016, 06:52 PM) *
The more leave voters that come out with this "we were not told this, this isn't what we voted for" (you were and it was), the more I start to think dictators have things right & democracy is overrated because the great British public are clearly a shower of dribbling f***ing morons who can't even be trusted with something as simple as a public vote on the X Factor never mind something as serious as the EU membership and the future of our country.



I have never voted in a TV reality show.

Posted by: skankhunt42 Oct 18 2016, 07:33 AM

Hopefully in 20 years and post inde Scotland our generation cam get us back IN the EU

Posted by: Silas Oct 18 2016, 10:24 AM

QUOTE(Common Sense @ Oct 18 2016, 08:25 AM) *
I have never voted in a TV reality show.

Yes because that was the real take home message from my post

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 19 2016, 10:40 AM

Human nature: tendancy to believe messages charlatans tell because the message is appealing and they dont understand complex situations.

Tendancy to prefer optimistic messages, however ludicous, over realisn.

Tendancy to not trust experts because smart people make them nervous and they cant tell the difference between honest smart people and manipulating smart or dumb people.

Posted by: Silas Oct 19 2016, 10:51 AM

Travis Perkins have cut 600 jobs and the effects of Brexit are being blamed.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Oct 19 2016, 12:52 PM

I find that hard to believe - we haven't even left the EU yet so to blame that seems a bit... ott and convenient. I suspect it is more to do with the woeful lack of housbuilding over the past 6 years and completely fucked housing market in the UK.

Posted by: Qassändra Oct 19 2016, 03:00 PM

QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 19 2016, 01:52 PM) *
I suspect it is more to do with the woeful lack of housbuilding over the past 6 years and completely fucked housing market in the UK.

Not really true currently though, in the sense that housebuilding has gone up over the last eighteen months, and where they have been building houses they will have made a pretty solid profit on them.

Posted by: Silas Oct 25 2016, 09:48 PM

Oil price hasn't rocketed back up lately but fuel is up 7p since Brexit, about 5%, due to the fall in the Sterling. Imagine we will be back above £1.20 before November is out. Rising fuel prices means less cash for joe pleb and high haulage costs which puts even more pressure on food prices.

Calling Brexit economic suicide would be underselling it.

Posted by: Harve Oct 26 2016, 02:17 AM

Without wanting to underestimate the difficulties it will cause, I don't feel as though the economic effects will be obvious or immediate enough or even be actually blamed on the vote for the country as a whole to establish a consensus that the vote was a bad idea. In case you're considering what I'm considering - do you think swing voters in rUK will turn against the current Tory government a few years down the line or 2014 No voters will end up turning against the union? I ain't so sure.

That and a not-significant proportion of the electorate would https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/u12mloq9ox/PolicyExchangeResults_160907_Authoritarianism_UK.pdf (obviously not synonymous with Brexit as a whole, but let's be real, it was in the back of most voters' thoughts and defined the campaigns). I interpret it as showing that even if voters recognise the broad economic benefits that immigration to the UK has brought over the last few decades, many of them don't care about whether or not they're taking all our jobs, are a drain on public services or what have you. Excluding Don't Knows, two thirds of Leave voters would choose to be personally worse off as long as it meant the country had fewer immigrants. Worrying...

Posted by: 👻 Booliver 👻 Oct 26 2016, 02:41 PM

I wouldn't dare pay any of my income to reduce immigration. I get paid little as it is! laugh.gif

Posted by: Silas Oct 26 2016, 03:41 PM

That depresses me. BRB seeking asylum somewhere that loves immigration

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 26 2016, 05:11 PM

that's a loaded survey. specifying low percentages of income and large numbers of immigrant cuts.

If they'd chosen more realistic figures

eg 15% of your income to cut numbers to 100,000 (they can cut immigration figs in half at the stroke of a pen by not allowing non-EU non-refugees into the country) but the woman in charge has failed to do so in 4 years and counting, I see nothing coming up begging the rest of the non-EU world to invest in the UK is going to stop that trend.

10% cut to 150,000

5% cut to 200,000

I think the outcome would have been very different. The final cost may well be 25% and a lot of dead people from NHS cutbacks, higher taxes, less jobs for their kids. The notion that immigration could be zero is just ludicrous and it shouldnt even be on a serious questionnaire. Phrase the questions differently.....

Posted by: popchartfreak Oct 31 2016, 07:28 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-worst-performing-currency-world-brexit-a7388821.html

ha ha ha, oh how the Brexiters still deny reality. Should be really fun when they finally trigger article 50.

Everyone, book your holidays abroad before March and make sure you pay for them upfront!

Posted by: Qassändra Nov 1 2016, 10:46 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Oct 26 2016, 05:11 PM) *
that's a loaded survey. specifying low percentages of income and large numbers of immigrant cuts.

If they'd chosen more realistic figures

eg 15% of your income to cut numbers to 100,000 (they can cut immigration figs in half at the stroke of a pen by not allowing non-EU non-refugees into the country) but the woman in charge has failed to do so in 4 years and counting, I see nothing coming up begging the rest of the non-EU world to invest in the UK is going to stop that trend.

10% cut to 150,000

5% cut to 200,000

I think the outcome would have been very different. The final cost may well be 25% and a lot of dead people from NHS cutbacks, higher taxes, less jobs for their kids. The notion that immigration could be zero is just ludicrous and it shouldnt even be on a serious questionnaire. Phrase the questions differently.....

How is it loaded? Putting aside the idea that many people at all would see their income slashed by a quarter because of immigration being cut, the findings show just how significant things are: 62% of the population say they wouldn't give up a penny of their income to cut immigration at all. That's a huge finding, and shows up the justification behind Brexit hugely: people didn't think they'd lose out economically.

Posted by: popchartfreak Nov 1 2016, 01:23 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Nov 1 2016, 10:46 AM) *
How is it loaded? Putting aside the idea that many people at all would see their income slashed by a quarter because of immigration being cut, the findings show just how significant things are: 62% of the population say they wouldn't give up a penny of their income to cut immigration at all. That's a huge finding, and shows up the justification behind Brexit hugely: people didn't think they'd lose out economically.


I'm arguing it's on the cautious side and that the real results would be much more of a landslide for Remaining if they had chosen more realistic immigration cuts figures and more realistic wage losses, as in not likely to be significant immigrant cuts anyway, and very likely the majority of people will be far worse off than the poll was saying.

Posted by: Silas Nov 2 2016, 10:36 AM

Inflation to hit 4% next year. f***ing yay.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Nov 2 2016, 10:44 AM

Inflation was over 5% for most of 2011!

We have been near zero for the majority of 2015 which was the only thing seemingly increasing disposable income, and consumer spending has been equally the only thing buoying the crippled UK economy. Fun times ahead...

Posted by: Suedehead2 Nov 2 2016, 08:16 PM

The attempt by the government and other Leave campaigners to rewrite the dictionary continues apace.

We already know that the dictionary according to Theresa May is even less sophisticated than Baldrick's definition of a dog ("not a cat"). May's dictionary just defines a dog as "a dog".

We have heard various people on the Leave side describe the referendum result as overwhelming. Their use of the word "overwhelming" is not one with which I am familiar. It has been estimated by some people that the change in the electorate (new voters coming on to the register as they reach 18 and the proposed extension of the franchise to all expats) would lead to a majority for Remain in as little as two years even without any June voters changing their minds. In other words, there will be a majority for Remain by the time we are due to leave. That doesn't fit any definition of overwhelming in my dictionary.

The verb "punish" has also been redefined. The suggestion that the EU will treat the UK just the asme as any other non-member is being described as "punishment" in many quarters. Now we have Tim Martin, the boss of Wetherspoons, redefining "bullying". According to him, if his suppliers increase their prices to adjust for the collapse of the pound, that is "bullying". In the past that would have been described as "commercial reality" or "capitalism".

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/02/wetherspoon-boss-eu-leaders-brexit-talks-tim-martin?CMP=fb_gu

I look forward to his customers refusing to be bullied the next time his pubs increase their prices.

Posted by: blacksquare Nov 3 2016, 10:28 AM

So the government just lost their Article 50 court fight.

Good news? It should at least slow the process down.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Nov 3 2016, 10:35 AM

It is good news - for UKIP that is, if it goes before the parliamentary vote and they vote to stall Brexit.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Nov 3 2016, 10:38 AM

It's good news although it should be seen as just an interim judgement. It is almost certain that the government will take it to the Supreme Court.

The consequences of a government victory (if that is what ultimately happens) should be worrying. We know that a lot of Leave-supporting Tories were planning to attempt to dump Cameron if Remain won and replace him with a Leave supporter. If the government wins this case in the Supreme Court (or the European Court of Justice if goes that far), the implication would be that the new Leave-supporting PM in that scenario could have simply triggered Article 50 anyway.

I'm not a legal expert, but the government's case seems largely to be based on the referendum result. However, the referendum was advisory, not binding. The decision on whether to act on the result is a political one, not a legal one.

Posted by: Qassändra Nov 3 2016, 11:10 AM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 3 2016, 10:38 AM) *
However, the referendum was advisory, not binding. The decision on whether to act on the result is a political one, not a legal one.

In this day and age, that's for all intents and purposes a technicality.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Nov 3 2016, 11:27 AM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Nov 3 2016, 11:10 AM) *
In this day and age, that's for all intents and purposes a technicality.

The law often is about technicalities. That's why people get paid a lot of money for knowing about it.

Posted by: Qassändra Nov 3 2016, 11:28 AM

My point is more that if it were rejected on the basis that it was merely advisory, it probably wouldn't end well with the public.

Posted by: Silas Nov 3 2016, 11:30 AM

The pound actually surged upon this news based on the fact that Remain holds a majority in parliament.

Posted by: Qassändra Nov 3 2016, 11:37 AM

How stupid are these traders? Do they really think Theresa May is going to respond to a vote against activating Article 50 in Parliament with anything other than a snap general election that ends in a Remain massacre?

Posted by: popchartfreak Nov 3 2016, 12:42 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 2 2016, 08:16 PM) *
The attempt by the government and other Leave campaigners to rewrite the dictionary continues apace.

We already know that the dictionary according to Theresa May is even less sophisticated than Baldrick's definition of a dog ("not a cat"). May's dictionary just defines a dog as "a dog".

We have heard various people on the Leave side describe the referendum result as overwhelming. Their use of the word "overwhelming" is not one with which I am familiar. It has been estimated by some people that the change in the electorate (new voters coming on to the register as they reach 18 and the proposed extension of the franchise to all expats) would lead to a majority for Remain in as little as two years even without any June voters changing their minds. In other words, there will be a majority for Remain by the time we are due to leave. That doesn't fit any definition of overwhelming in my dictionary.

The verb "punish" has also been redefined. The suggestion that the EU will treat the UK just the asme as any other non-member is being described as "punishment" in many quarters. Now we have Tim Martin, the boss of Wetherspoons, redefining "bullying". According to him, if his suppliers increase their prices to adjust for the collapse of the pound, that is "bullying". In the past that would have been described as "commercial reality" or "capitalism".

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/02/wetherspoon-boss-eu-leaders-brexit-talks-tim-martin?CMP=fb_gu

I look forward to his customers refusing to be bullied the next time his pubs increase their prices.


well said!

I'll add "Remoaner": someone who uses their democratic right to argue against government policy, for example, anti-EU propagandists for the last 25 years. We didn't give them a handy new catchy name for moaning and droning on and on about the EU year after year, let alone after 3 months. If we had I would have chosen, say, "Brexeracisters" or "Whinegingtwatters", but sane people have to remain civil, unlike the mouth-frothy Hitler-loving beer-swilling, foreign-affairs-nose-sticking, hypocritical, callous, bankrupt-businessey-and-morally employed-by-the-EU-and-on-a-huge-pensioney two-faced in-out-leader-of-a-useless-political-party...

Or "detailed": deailed means detailed. No further explanation or consultation of either the British voting public or Parliament required.

At the rate the government NHS-battering is going on the lead should also have been lost pretty much within 2 years just from old people dying and being unable to register an opinion.


Posted by: Qassändra Nov 3 2016, 12:48 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Nov 3 2016, 12:42 PM) *
If we had I would have chosen, say "Whinegingtwatters"

...catchy.

Posted by: popchartfreak Nov 3 2016, 07:40 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Nov 3 2016, 12:48 PM) *
...catchy.


appropriate too today as Farage is back in whine mode big time laugh.gif

We have Boris Johnson saying Brexit is going to be as huge as the Titanic (oops watch out for that huge iceberg!)

we have, as someone on twitter kindly pointed out re farage re-brexit-moaning, the sight of a man who wants Britain to take back control of it's own government complaining that a British Court Of Law has upheld the centuries-old established principle of the sovereignty of Parliament when it comes to removing previous Acts Of Law from the books. The Government of the day cannot do this, only Parliament can.

We finally have British Law taking control away from the EU and all he does is moan about it! Bet he insists on taking it to the European Parliament, being such a massive hypocrite and all!

Posted by: Silas Nov 5 2016, 11:16 PM

No single market and Labour oppose Brexit process/deals et al.


This is how Armageddon starts isn't it

Posted by: Taylor Jago Nov 21 2016, 06:57 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 2 2016, 09:16 PM) *
We have heard various people on the Leave side describe the referendum result as overwhelming. Their use of the word "overwhelming" is not one with which I am familiar. It has been estimated by some people that the change in the electorate (new voters coming on to the register as they reach 18 and the proposed extension of the franchise to all expats) would lead to a majority for Remain in as little as two years even without any June voters changing their minds. In other words, there will be a majority for Remain by the time we are due to leave. That doesn't fit any definition of overwhelming in my dictionary.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/21/support-for-the-eu-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-even-in-the-uk?CMP=fb_gu
The Bertelsmann Foundation, which in March did a survey showed 49% of those asked were favourable to remaining in the EU (pretty much spot on with the referendum result) and conducted a new version of the same poll in the UK and other EU countries.

That 49% of British people wanting to remain in the EU has gone up to 56%, and that was in August. In fact we're even ahead of France and Italy in the August poll for wanting to remain in the EU.

Considering this data, the claim that public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of one option due to one result when it seems to have already shifted to the other option is nothing short of nonsensical.

Posted by: popchartfreak Nov 28 2016, 09:53 PM

This summary of Mrs May's god-driven belief in herself is illuminating...

(don't recall The Bible saying the poor should go to foodbanks, and strangers should be treated like enemies, tho)


Reasons2Remain
Yesterday at 00:18 ·
→ My 15-minute encounter with the Prime Minister – Please share
LOUISE TRETHOWAN -v- THERESA MAY
This month I paid a visit to my Member of Parliament at her Maidenhead constituency office. She’s Theresa May, the Prime Minister, writes Louise Trethowan.
I’m an Australian who’s been living in Britain for 18 years, so I can vote in elections here as a qualifying citizen of the Commonwealth. I voted for Theresa May and I voted for Remain.
But after the EU Referendum, I emailed Mrs May to say how concerned I was about the Brexit decision, and my worries about the impact on my small business, a bistro in Poole.
She wrote back to say, “We’re going to bang the drum for Britain!” – yes, she really did write that. I replied that this was a most unsatisfactory response. She then invited me to meet her at her constituency surgery.
I was to have 15 minutes with the Prime Minister.
My first impression was that she seemed very cold for someone who relies on votes to keep her job. Really, she could do with going to charm school.
I opened with my concerns about racism at the top of government. She refuted this robustly. But I reminded her of statements such as, “British jobs for British workers” and “British doctors would be better for the NHS” and of course Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary, calling for companies to produce lists of their foreign workers.
Mrs May went on about wanting to ensure that UK companies were investing in UK workers. But I replied, “If I advertised for a British employee, I’d be very rightly on the sharp end of the Equality Act.” She had to agree with that.
I then presented Mrs May with a copy of the EU Referendum ballot paper. “Where on here does it say we were voting to reduce the number of EU citizens in the UK?” I asked. “Well it doesn’t,” she replied. “But the government has reports that the level of immigration is a concern.” I asked for references, which she couldn’t provide.
Then, I produced an infograph showing that EU workers added more to the economy than they cost. She didn’t appear impressed, but then the mood changed.
She emphasised, not just strongly but crossly, that “the British people have voted for Brexit and the government is committed to making it happen” and started pointing at my face across the narrow desk.
I asked her to please not point at my face as I considered it rude. “People point at me all the time,” she replied. “Indeed,” I responded, “it’s rude, so please refrain.”
I then presented her with a pie chart with voting numbers showing that only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit, which was not the majority of “British people”. She didn’t really have an answer for that. I told her that I shouted at the tele when I heard her say that “the British people have spoken” when it was really only 37%.
She asked me if I accepted the result of the Referendum. I replied, “Certainly not!”
We then spoke about my personal concerns about Brexit. In addition to my day job as a Human Resources Manager, my husband and I own a bistro with an EU citizen chef. She could not, however, guarantee EU citizens’ the right to remain in Britain after Brexit.
I emphasised my concerns about the increased costs of food and wine for my bistro following the fall in the value of the pound. She started talking about exports, but I replied that I couldn’t export the steak and frites we cook in the bistro. I needed assurances from the Prime Minister. “We will ensure a strong economy” was all she could do.
She said, “We’re going to get the best deal.” I said, “That’s a hope, not an action.”
I gave the analogy that the Brexit “best deal” rhetoric was like me saying I want the “best holiday” without knowing where I was going, how much it would cost, how I’d get there or where I’d stay. Mrs May replied that the government would not give details of their negotiations.
I reminded her that Donald Tusk, President of the EU Council, said there’d be either “hard Brexit or no Brexit” and I was inclined to agree. Mrs May responded, “I am sure I have more experience in negotiating in Europe than you do!” I said that arrogance was not helpful.
I then showed her a screen shot of Boris Johnson’s speech the day after the Referendum when he said that we could still live, work, study and retire in the EU. Could she clarify the Foreign Secretary’s comments as clearly this was not going to be true. She blustered and said, “He wasn’t Foreign Secretary then”. But I wasn’t sure what difference that made..
By this point I knew we’d probably never be friends. I asked her that given Maidenhead had voted overwhelmingly for Remain, would she vote against Brexit should she lose in the Supreme Court case? She replied that she was a representative and not a “delegate” and was not obliged to be the voice of her constituents.
I said the people of Maidenhead may find this interesting in the next election. She said anyone who didn’t understand this didn’t understand the role of an MP. I said I thought there were many who didn’t understand this.
Time was up. I finished by telling her there was a huge groundswell of opposition to Brexit.
But I don’t think she’s listening. She’s arrogant and extremely defensive. She also looked very tired. In my years of ‘people watching’ as an HR Manager, I’d say she is very much out of her depth.
I don’t think I’m on her Christmas card list.
• Louise Trethowan is Australian who moved to the UK in 1998 and was granted indefinite leave to remain in 2003. Louise is a human resources specialist for a large social care organisation that supports people with learning disabilities and autism. She also runs a bistro with her husband and an Hungarian chef.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Nov 28 2016, 10:03 PM

Given all the FAKE NEWS around recently, I'd strongly call that particular social media share (which I've seen barricading around the more liberal users on Twitter etc.) a likely candidate for being untrue.

Posted by: popchartfreak Nov 29 2016, 12:29 PM

QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Nov 28 2016, 10:03 PM) *
Given all the FAKE NEWS around recently, I'd strongly call that particular social media share (which I've seen barricading around the more liberal users on Twitter etc.) a likely candidate for being untrue.


could well be right, it's just too delicious, the coldness, the aloofness, the vagueness, the unsympathetic nature, the pigheadedness are all exactly as I view her. So as a work of fiction (if it is) it's brilliant. Given the lies of the Brexit mobs though, it would also be totally "serves ya right".

Given the handwritten memo leaks today of the cabinet meeting (all denied of course, despite it being in black and white in the hands of someone who was there) and the utter and total lack of transparency towards keeping the citizens informed, the likelihood of a hard Brexit, the disregard for those who will be hit economically hard, and the knee in the groin for industry, thoughI'm inclined to give the artcile credibility in spirit if not in fact (which it May well be).


Posted by: Brett-Butler Nov 29 2016, 06:12 PM

I'm just disappointed that the leaked memo didn't mention the "quiet bat people".

Posted by: Doctor Blind Nov 29 2016, 06:57 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Nov 29 2016, 06:12 PM) *
I'm just disappointed that the leaked memo didn't mention the "quiet bat people".



It does reek of a total setup as per The Thick Of It !

Posted by: Suedehead2 Dec 7 2016, 01:42 PM

The government has a plan. Here it is in the words of the Prime Minister herself.

QUOTE
"People talk about the sort of Brexit that there is going to be – is it hard or soft, is it grey or white. Actually we want a red, white and blue Brexit: that is the right Brexit for the UK, the right deal for the UK.


Of course, there are a few flaws with this plan, not least the fact that it is utterly meaningless drivel. You have to assume that this was not just an off-the-cuff remark. Somebody, somewhere thought it was a good idea. Others, including Theresa May, agreed. This is not just post-truth politics, it's post-English politics.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Dec 7 2016, 01:52 PM

I don't think I've cringed at a politician any more this year than at the "Red, White & Blue" Brexit line. And it's confusing anyway, when I think of the "red, white & blue", I think of either France or the United States first, not the UK. And I'm not too sure that they are two countries that we especially want to emulate.

There's a vote in the commons tonight regarding something Brexit-y. I've been led to believe that there's an amendment that has been tabled that would make the current Supreme Court case regarding parliament's need to trigger Article 50 unnecessary. I've heard conflicting views, so does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

Posted by: popchartfreak Dec 7 2016, 06:16 PM

the right-wing side of the party is going apoplectic, IDS is inciting the End of the British legal and political system going back centuries because he doesn't agree with judges having a say on a fine point of legality. The man is a massive fool, as even his close Tory colleagues realise, he's thick as a plank. In a vote for Most-stupid MP, it'd be a toss-up between him and Liz Truss.

meanwhile a Tory millionaire with his finger in non-environmentally-friendly industries and health-harming ones sees an opportunity to increase his wealth:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

In a contest to fins out the biggest MP manipulator of policies to promote their own wealth and interests, Mogg would be in the running along with the likes of Amber Rudd.

The Labour motion is an attempt to catch May off-guard out of the country while she's arse-licking anti-democratic middle-eastern regimes trying to drum up some business when she should be concentrating on sorting the mess over the EU first. Clearly she still expects a very very hard Brexit. If she gives any indication of a plan I'll be shocked, as her leading men are all contradicting one another constantly. She may give Labour a minor bit of appearing to be doing something by saying she'll give a bit of info on a plan:

"I have a plan: Brexit still means Brexit and I will get some cake and eat it and it will be delicious."

Ultimately though, whatever she says or does, Labour will shoo-in any Bill to trigger Article 50 because they fear for their political life if they don't. Or if they do.


Posted by: Taylor Jago Dec 7 2016, 06:55 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Dec 7 2016, 02:52 PM) *
I don't think I've cringed at a politician any more this year than at the "Red, White & Blue" Brexit line. And it's confusing anyway, when I think of the "red, white & blue", I think of either France or the United States first, not the UK. And I'm not too sure that they are two countries that we especially want to emulate.

When you think of France, you don't think "red, white & blue", you think "blue, white & red" (bleu, blanc, rouge) because the colors appear in that order on the flag.

Posted by: popchartfreak Dec 26 2016, 02:57 PM

I see old merv, former governor if the Bank of Englnd has been suggesting a hard Brexit is the wy to go. Just popped on with a personal messge to him:

Piss off you useless old fool and keep your pathetic opinions to yourself. You had one job: dong let the UK economy go tits up, dont let housing overheat and make sure that megabanks which could ruin the country didnt lie, deceive and borrow in dangerous ways. You were utterly useless, so no one cares what you think, any advice from you is worthless, so crawl back under your peerage rock and shut your mouth.

Love and kisses.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 15 2017, 11:21 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38626293

chit chat that May is about to call on the UK to unite around her doing what she thinks best on Brexit and stop arguing about it.

That's not how democracy works you fool. On behalf of the majority of the country who DIDN'T vote for Brexit (and a good proportion of those who did and didn't think it was a vote for a hard Brexit), can I just say f*** Off you arrogant woman and get used to people having a say in OUR future. We are not going to go quietly sinking into our premature death coffins, we see what you are already doing to the NHS and local government (and many of us struggle with the consequences of it every hour of our difficult lives) and your Tory vision for the UK is a bloody right-wing nightmare vision. You weren't elected, and neither were your policies voted for.

Love and Kisses.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 15 2017, 02:38 PM

So we should support what she's doing even though she won't tell us what it is.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 17 2017, 01:13 PM

...and she's confirmed at long last she likes it hard. Really hard! "Clean" seems to be the new media-friendly word. A Clean brexit. It will be anything but clean. It will be dirty and hard, very dirty. Obviously how Mrs M prefers it as TINA, as Mrs T used to put it, to getting down and dirty and hard.

This innuendo could just run and run.

So, we are likely to end becoming an tax exile, which makes sense, we can just merge with our island territories and stop pretending that rich people will have to pay any tax at all. Just poor people paying for their own declining way of life.

Well, don't blame me, I wasn't stupid enough to vote for it....

Posted by: Envoirment Jan 17 2017, 02:28 PM

Thersea's speech was quite good and did what it was meant to do. Obviously implementing her 12 point plan isn't going to be at all easy, but finally having some clarity on it should help bring about some stability. Financial markets are responding quite strongly with the pound making its largest daily gains in many years. Of course it's still a long way from where it was - but it'll hopefully be more stable and less prone to big drops now. It's managed to do better than forecast over the last couple months and if it keeps doing so that may help prevent inflation from rising too high.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 17 2017, 02:43 PM

I think now is a suitable time to remind people that the Tory manifesto included a pledge to remain part of the single market regardless of the result of the referendum. Claiming that people voted to leave the single market is a massive lie. After all, the words "single" and "market" were nowhere to be seen on the ballot paper and many Leave campaigners insisted that we could remain part of the single market. Unfortunately the Labour party have, so far, done precisely nothing to highlight this.

Posted by: Envoirment Jan 17 2017, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 17 2017, 02:43 PM) *
I think now is a suitable time to remind people that the Tory manifesto included a pledge to remain part of the single market regardless of the result of the referendum. Claiming that people voted to leave the single market is a massive lie. After all, the words "single" and "market" were nowhere to be seen on the ballot paper and many Leave campaigners insisted that we could remain part of the single market. Unfortunately the Labour party have, so far, done precisely nothing to highlight this.


But didn't both David Cameron and George osbourne outline that a vote to leave would be a vote to leave the EU and the single market during the campaign? And a lot of those voting to leave were likely doing so because of immigration, in which being a member of the single market wouldn't allow control of, as EU leaders were very clear about accepting free movement to remain part of it. But I agree that there should have been more clarity over that - as different leave campaign groups were saying different things. But the government (well David/George) were quite clear about a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market as well. Not to mention there didn't seem to be any real plan incase of a leave win, especially with David Cameron stepping down, so the manifesto is somewhat obsolete in regards to what it aimed to do (as it assumed we'd remain in the EU). Just a shame we couldn't have a general snap election with new manifestos taking into account the brexit vote. But that might've made things worse.

Posted by: Oliver Jan 17 2017, 03:05 PM

I nearly screamed at the TV when she said that it wasn't in the national interest to have a running commentary about what her government is doing for Brexit.

Erm, I'm sure there are 16 million people who would love to know exactly what is happening each step of the way. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Taylor Jago Jan 17 2017, 05:48 PM

I can't believe I once thought that woman was going to be reasonable. Unfortunately it seems inevitable that the rights of EU citizens to work and live in the UK (and vice versa) will be destroyed, and this country is about to crumble apart. Well done Mayhem!


Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 17 2017, 06:56 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 17 2017, 03:01 PM) *
But didn't both David Cameron and George osbourne outline that a vote to leave would be a vote to leave the EU and the single market during the campaign? And a lot of those voting to leave were likely doing so because of immigration, in which being a member of the single market wouldn't allow control of, as EU leaders were very clear about accepting free movement to remain part of it. But I agree that there should have been more clarity over that - as different leave campaign groups were saying different things. But the government (well David/George) were quite clear about a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market as well. Not to mention there didn't seem to be any real plan incase of a leave win, especially with David Cameron stepping down, so the manifesto is somewhat obsolete in regards to what it aimed to do (as it assumed we'd remain in the EU). Just a shame we couldn't have a general snap election with new manifestos taking into account the brexit vote. But that might've made things worse.



errr no dont think so - and in any case everything The Reami campaign said was casullay tossed as "Project fear". The Leave campaign lied through their teeth throughout about it, and about everything else, and that's what swayed people to vote Leave:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

Posted by: PeaceMob Jan 17 2017, 07:16 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 17 2017, 03:01 PM) *
But didn't both David Cameron and George osbourne outline that a vote to leave would be a vote to leave the EU and the single market during the campaign? And a lot of those voting to leave were likely doing so because of immigration, in which being a member of the single market wouldn't allow control of, as EU leaders were very clear about accepting free movement to remain part of it. But I agree that there should have been more clarity over that - as different leave campaign groups were saying different things. But the government (well David/George) were quite clear about a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market as well. Not to mention there didn't seem to be any real plan incase of a leave win, especially with David Cameron stepping down, so the manifesto is somewhat obsolete in regards to what it aimed to do (as it assumed we'd remain in the EU). Just a shame we couldn't have a general snap election with new manifestos taking into account the brexit vote. But that might've made things worse.


You're right.


Posted by: PeaceMob Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM

I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 17 2017, 07:45 PM

The 27 will act in their own interest, which will leave us with a shit deal. We don't have enough to offer to them to get a deal whereby manufacturing and the financial sector can operate without tariffs, meaning we'll have to give businesses a glorified bung in order to keep them here.

Many universities have recently announced that they'll be raising their tuition fees to £10k a year by 2020. I dread to think what that'll be once EU funding disappears and the international students stop coming.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 17 2017, 08:06 PM

absolutely right. To summarise: megabanks (who ruined us) will be given shitloads not to move to Europe, but we depend on 10's of billions annual tax from them to not have an even more massive black hole in our annual deficit, and many will go anyway. Big EU subsidized industries like farming will suddenly find they cant survive which will mean food prices rocket, along with the UK trying to find other food producers to undercut our own expensive produce - that means our current high-standards for food will drop and shitty GM/pesticide-sprayed/third-world-labour will start to dominate the shops.

Places like India wont send foreign students without free student movement (we have nothing but brains to offer to sell - apart from weapons of destruction, the ongoing British "gift" to the rest of the world, apart from banking). We still need doctors, nurses, scientists, even with them hacked at (which will happen even more than it is already) so the nonsense that "controlling" our borders means no more foreigners is pure bullshit, just as much as it has been bullshit for the 5 years Teresa may was in charge of immigration and failed spectacularly to reduce non-EU immigrants numbers.

Basically, the rich and powerful have masterminded a campaign that idiots fell for, and they now have utter power to rewrite British society in their own image.

Still, gotta laugh at people's stupidity, the one commodity that will never go out of fashion....

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 17 2017, 08:12 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

The EU will act in the interests of its members. That's what it's for. If that is not in the interests of the UK as a soon-to-be ex-member that isn't petty and spiteful.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 17 2017, 08:19 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".


They have said time and again that they will look after their own interests. To do otherwise is to invite the end of the EU. To give the UK a good deal would be mass suicide, chaos in the eurozone countries and other countries demanding (as they have said) "cherry-picking" and I entirely support their right not to be taken down by one uppity country manipulated by right-wing rich powerful interests and anti-foreigner sentiment. We will end up with No Deal, because the EU has nothing to lose with that option. If the UK does well out of Brexit they have EVERYTHING to lose.

The UK government knows exactly what is coming, and they will try and blame the EU for whatever happens as far as limited agreement goes on anything, and on what happens to our economy (if it goes tits up - if it somehow improves then they will claim all the credit for themselves), during after and decades down the line. The Daily Mail won't stop blaming the EU because we have left because they will still need a scapegoat for all the ills in society...other than, say, poor people on strike getting above their station, and experts who tell the truth.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jan 17 2017, 08:35 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 17 2017, 08:12 PM) *
The EU will act in the interests of its members. That's what it's for. If that is not in the interests of the UK as a soon-to-be ex-member that isn't petty and spiteful.


Oh really, if the EU acts in the "interests of its members" then they really should do a good deal with the UK considering the EU has one of the largest economies in the world on their doorstep to export to, they have a large defence commitment from the UK and a free security service GCHQ, and as an added bonus the EU has easy access to London's financial institutions. But this is the EU we're talking about so I won't be surprised to see them cut off their nose to spite their face, especially when one of its presidents (Juncker) is openly saying he wants to "punish the UK" to discourage other countries from leaving, now what does that say about them.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 17 2017, 08:52 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 08:35 PM) *
Oh really, if the EU acts in the "interests of its members" then they really should do a good deal with the UK considering the EU has one of the largest economies in the world on their doorstep to export to, they have a large defence commitment from the UK and a free security service GCHQ, and as an added bonus the EU has easy access to London's financial institutions. But this is the EU we're talking about so I won't be surprised to see them cut off their nose to spite their face, especially when one of its presidents (Juncker) is openly saying he wants to "punish the UK" to discourage other countries from leaving, now what does that say about them.

The defence commitment has more to do with NATO than the EU. As for the financial institutions, Frankfurt and Paris will be itching to grab as much of that as they can.

Posted by: Harve Jan 17 2017, 09:11 PM

QUOTE(Taylor Jago @ Jan 17 2017, 05:48 PM) *
I can't believe I once thought that woman was going to be reasonable. Unfortunately it seems inevitable that the rights of EU citizens to work and live in the UK (and vice versa) will be destroyed, and this country is about to crumble apart. Well done Mayhem!

And what a GREAT time for me to graduate with a degree that's inherently internationally orientated.

f*** the UK srsly. I want the right to work in other European countries whose languages I've spent 10 years mastering without having to qualify for a visa and get 'sponsored'. Eww.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 17 2017, 08:52 PM) *
The defence commitment has more to do with NATO than the EU. As for the financial institutions, Frankfurt and Paris will be itching to grab as much of that as they can.

That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.

Posted by: princess lotita Jan 17 2017, 09:31 PM

QUOTE(Harve @ Jan 17 2017, 09:11 PM) *
And what a GREAT time for me to graduate with a degree that's inherently internationally orientated.

f*** the UK srsly. I want the right to work in other European countries whose languages I've spent 10 years mastering without having to qualify for a visa and get 'sponsored'. Eww.


i'm a first year german nd politics student and i'm already feeling devastated by this sad.gif sad.gif my year abroad has been promised but i'm terrified it's the last easy chance i'll get to work or study in another country

Posted by: Oliver Jan 17 2017, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.


laugh.gif wow...

Posted by: Rooney Jan 17 2017, 09:35 PM

Well it was to be expected really. As much as I am not a huge fan of Teresa May and her stance, her hands are pretty tied. I'd love us to stay part of the single market as I believe it's a necessity for our country in the short term. But people voted because of immigration, so the Brexit hardliners would be absolutely crazy. I think this would just send people more to UKIP, when really as a party they should become pretty defunct now.

It's going to be really challenging for a lot of big companies who rely on the talents of foreign workers. The skillset for certain roles is just not available in the UK.

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 17 2017, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 07:20 PM) *
I thought Theresa May's speech was absolutely brilliant. She said pretty much everything I hoped she say. Now the ball is in the EU's court, do they want to do a good deal with the UK or not, because if they are going to be petty and spiteful then the UK will not be afraid to just walk away, like Theresa May said "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Which would hurt us far more than it would hurt any of the EU27 individually. Saying "we trade with the EU more than it trades with us" is about as persuasive of an argument to the EU to go out of their way to give us a good deal as "we get a net economic benefit from immigration" is to individual voters in the UK. It may well be the case collectively. But the sum benefit on an individual level is completely gulfed by how much more damaging it would be for their economies for the EU to be dismantled piecemeal.

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 17 2017, 09:57 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.

How is it clueless and ignorant? Berlin is literally running ad vans around the City of London encouraging financial institutions to move.

Posted by: Envoirment Jan 18 2017, 12:01 AM

I'm hoping there'll be some form of transitional deal over a period of about 5-8 years and that a decent trade deal that benefits both sides can be met during that time. There's going to be a lot to sort out at just 2 years doesn't seem enough time to do all that.

I suppose a positive is that there are multiple countries willing to strike trade deals as soon as we've left. If May and her team are on it, they'll begin drafting up deals and plans with those countries whilst brexit talks are ongoing, ready to implement/sign them as soon as we've left. Certainly isn't going to be easy.

Posted by: Danny Jan 18 2017, 01:05 AM

QUOTE(Rooney @ Jan 17 2017, 09:35 PM) *
Well it was to be expected really. As much as I am not a huge fan of Teresa May and her stance, her hands are pretty tied. I'd love us to stay part of the single market as I believe it's a necessity for our country in the short term. But people voted because of immigration, so the Brexit hardliners would be absolutely crazy. I think this would just send people more to UKIP, when really as a party they should become pretty defunct now.

It's going to be really challenging for a lot of big companies who rely on the talents of foreign workers. The skillset for certain roles is just not available in the UK.


Surely, then, the onus should be on those companies to actually train British workers themselves so that they have the skillset for those jobs? That's what they always used to do before the 1980s.

Posted by: Danny Jan 18 2017, 01:11 AM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 18 2017, 12:01 AM) *
I'm hoping there'll be some form of transitional deal over a period of about 5-8 years and that a decent trade deal that benefits both sides can be met during that time. There's going to be a lot to sort out at just 2 years doesn't seem enough time to do all that.

I suppose a positive is that there are multiple countries willing to strike trade deals as soon as we've left. If May and her team are on it, they'll begin drafting up deals and plans with those countries whilst brexit talks are ongoing, ready to implement/sign them as soon as we've left. Certainly isn't going to be easy.


I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 18 2017, 10:34 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jan 17 2017, 09:28 PM) *
That there has just told me how clueless and ignorant you are.


I'm visiting Suedehead in his hospital bed later today. I'm sure we'll have a joint laugh at the comment. Trust me, Simon is anything but clueless and ignorant about politics, used to be involved in politics.

The EU countries involved have already made statements intending to take away huge financial institutions from London, and the likes of JPMorgan (a huge employer in Bournemouth) have already said they will move if they don't get EU passporting deal services. Teresa May has chosen a very very hard Brexit, so there will be no banks passporting deals on the table. End of.

Being in denial of facts as they have been stated does not make them cease to be facts. There's a film out at the mo, called La La Land....


Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 18 2017, 10:42 AM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:05 AM) *
Surely, then, the onus should be on those companies to actually train British workers themselves so that they have the skillset for those jobs? That's what they always used to do before the 1980s.


May has already started giving (undisclosed) financial tax-payer-supported sweeteners to companies looking to relocate. There is no way in hell that foreign-owned companies (which is most of 'em) wishing to bring in skilled foreign workers will be stopped from doing that - they dont want to pay for training, they want already trained available workers. May has had 5 years to stop skilled non-EU workers come into the country and has done nothing about it. That won't change. Only the lower-paid jobs will be affected.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 18 2017, 10:48 AM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:11 AM) *
I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.


You're assuming the anti-EU mob will actually be aware of our economy being controlled by USA/China (China fyi already has big contracts to control part of our energy supplies as does the EU) and that parts of the NHS aren't already in the process of being privatised. Now, if low-paid Chinese workers suddenly start appearing in fields in Lincolnshire under a dual-freedom-of-movement deal (The USA wont' be doing that) then the angry man in the street might notice and complain, and if his mum dies on the way to hospital after waiting 4 hours for an ambulance, he might notice, but otherwise he will remain blissfully ignorant as always....

Posted by: Envoirment Jan 18 2017, 01:24 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 01:11 AM) *
I really doubt the public are going to stomach these "global free trade deals" May has been banging on about. One of the main reasons Leave pulled in a lot of working-class voters was precisely because people felt our economy was being controlled by "Brussels"/Germany -- they're not going to agree to have our economy controlled by the US/China/whoever, as would be inevitable with the kind of "deals" that are being talked about. Apart from anything else, it would raise the risk of parts of the NHS being effectively privatised.


Agreed to a certain extent - it's likely going to be a mix of positives and negatives (probably more negative). I'm hoping that they've seen the response to deals such as TTIP and CETA and do not go that way... It would be an absolute disaster. But then again it's a Tory government.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 18 2017, 02:19 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 18 2017, 01:24 PM) *
Agreed to a certain extent - it's likely going to be a mix of positives and negatives (probably more negative). I'm hoping that they've seen the response to deals such as TTIP and CETA and do not go that way... It would be an absolute disaster. But then again it's a Tory government.

And a Tory government that was the biggest supporter of TTIP in the EU.

Posted by: burbe Jan 18 2017, 02:40 PM

One thing that bugs me about Theresa's headline in her speech, she says no deal is better than a bad deal. But under Article 50, both the UK and EU HAVE to conclude an agreement for both its withdrawal and future relationship. It's also really not in the interests of either party to end up needing to use paragraph 3. It will cause so much instability for both the UK and EU. Please can we just get a quick and amicable deal done. Yes the EU doesn't want to make it easy for us to leave, since it will create a precedent, but making it difficult for us will just strengthen the populist movement across Europe.

As someone who voted Leave, it's a very wrong move to reject the EEA. The strength of the Remain vote should also have been taken into account. Adding both the Leave voters who support the EEA but not the EU and Remain voters surely would give an easy majority for staying in the single market. If anything, I'd now like a second referendum on whether we stay in the EEA because I'm quite convinced Remain would win. They're over estimating the power of the leave vote / UKIP, imo.

Posted by: burbe Jan 18 2017, 03:16 PM

#let'sgoladies

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168935

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 18 2017, 04:10 PM

Not saying this is relevant to you, but the events that have transpired since the referendum have been a rather good rebuke of Lexit as a valid political idea.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jan 18 2017, 07:55 PM

The Leave brigade's optimism about trade deals makes no sense. The countries who are supposedly keen to do trade deals are generally counties who will be negotiating from a position of strength. It's not as if we can present the USA with a proposed deal and expect them to say "We won't bother reading it. Where do we sign?". Any deal proposed by Trump is bound to be a very one-sided one.

The EU and US have been trying to negotiate a deal for years. One reason it has taken so long (with no sign of an agreement any time soon) is that the EU can negotiate from a position strength. The UK will have no such luxury. Ultimately, the US can (if they so choose) get to the point where they say "This is our final offer. Take it or leave it".

The same applies to any deal with the EU. They, as I said earlier, will have the upper hand and will act in the interests of its members. Each member state will consider their own interests with little or no regard for the UK's interests. As all 27 member states (and the European Parliament) will need to agree any deal, it's not going to be as simple as many people seem to think. Of course, many of them are well aware of this but will continue to behave as if a deal should be simple so that they can blame the EU when it isn't.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jan 18 2017, 08:09 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 18 2017, 04:10 PM) *
Not saying this is relevant to you, but the events that have transpired since the referendum have been a rather good rebuke of Lexit as a valid political idea.


Are you referring to Paul Mason?

I must admit I did sympathise with the idea initially - there are certain things like state aid (ref- the steel industry) and the treatment of Greece as well as the complete and utter shambles that is the (ongoing) refugee crisis that did make me want to vote to leave the EU, though I reluctantly voted to remain because IMO the benefits still outweigh these rather annoying cons and perhaps some serious reform could be initiated from within, plus of course, and this is a much bigger factor in my decision ultimately... Britain outside the EU with the Conservatives in power will be a VERY bad thing indeed.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 18 2017, 08:12 PM

QUOTE(burbe @ Jan 18 2017, 02:40 PM) *
One thing that bugs me about Theresa's headline in her speech, she says no deal is better than a bad deal. But under Article 50, both the UK and EU HAVE to conclude an agreement for both its withdrawal and future relationship. It's also really not in the interests of either party to end up needing to use paragraph 3. It will cause so much instability for both the UK and EU. Please can we just get a quick and amicable deal done. Yes the EU doesn't want to make it easy for us to leave, since it will create a precedent, but making it difficult for us will just strengthen the populist movement across Europe.

As someone who voted Leave, it's a very wrong move to reject the EEA. The strength of the Remain vote should also have been taken into account. Adding both the Leave voters who support the EEA but not the EU and Remain voters surely would give an easy majority for staying in the single market. If anything, I'd now like a second referendum on whether we stay in the EEA because I'm quite convinced Remain would win. They're over estimating the power of the leave vote / UKIP, imo.


May knows exactly what she's doing, she's always been essentially not a fan of the EU and avoided saying anything of consequence in the referendum so she could swing whichever way the wind went afterwards. A new referendum would absolutely give a different result now people have seen what it involves without all of the lies that were told in the campaign (as regards what politicians said they would do vs what they actually have done) which is why it's never gonna happen in a million years. Same reason there won't be Gen Election. Don't need one. They have power, they won't give it up because that might mean we don't leave the EU.

May has already had meetings with Rupert Murdoch, and given interviews (exclusive) on Sky, and hasn't given key vital speeches in Parliament where MP's might ask some rather awkward questions she can't answer. She tried to get the Bill through by ignoring UK law, she isn't giving Parliament a final say on the EU agreement (It's consultative only, and no doubt too late to to come up with Plan B some time in 2019) because again she won't get what she wants. She runs a government who weren't elected, with policies that weren't voted for.

In short, the most undemocratic government of the last 70 years in the UK, under the sway of foreign billionaires (why the f*** is she even meeting media billionaire foreigners while she has so much vital to sort out with the EU, if it wasn't because she either is working with them, or frightened of them).

Still at least she's not the unstable, dumbass racist mess that Trump is, looking on the bright side. A cold, calculating two-faced speechifying-drivel robot is at least better than that.


Posted by: Danny Jan 18 2017, 09:08 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 18 2017, 07:55 PM) *
The Leave brigade's optimism about trade deals makes no sense. The countries who are supposedly keen to do trade deals are generally counties who will be negotiating from a position of strength. It's not as if we can present the USA with a proposed deal and expect them to say "We won't bother reading it. Where do we sign?". Any deal proposed by Trump is bound to be a very one-sided one.

The EU and US have been trying to negotiate a deal for years. One reason it has taken so long (with no sign of an agreement any time soon) is that the EU can negotiate from a position strength. The UK will have no such luxury. Ultimately, the US can (if they so choose) get to the point where they say "This is our final offer. Take it or leave it".


This was the main reason I voted to Remain -- because, as shite as the EU is, and as infuriating and offensive as I found the Remain campaign, having all the European countries on the same page in a big club atleast offered the chance of SOMEDAY forcing the biggest countries and big companies who run the global economy and global trade arrangements to change their ways.

I still think a campaign along those lines, with a message along the lines of "let's stick with the biggest gang in the playground so that we can get our way over China, Putin and Trump" would've had a much better chance of success, present those other countries who we'd be vulnerable to after Brexit as a greater evil than the EU. Instead, the genius Remain strategists somehow thought it would be a great idea to run a campaign with a message of how great the economy was during the middle of a living-standards Depression, and how bad it would be if some selfish rich big businessmen and bankers decided they didn't want to grace our shores with their presence anymore, topped off with regular doses of a US President thinking he's entitled to give instructions to us on how we should vote -- all of which combined to present a Leave vote as the only way to stick up for national pride and for the "little guy".

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 19 2017, 09:03 AM

This is what happens when Lynton Crosby runs a campaign with most of the press not on his side, in essence.

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 19 2017, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 19 2017, 09:03 AM) *
This is what happens when Lynton Crosby runs a campaign with most of the press not on his side, in essence.

Lynton Crosby didn't do anything on the EU referendum.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 19 2017, 12:09 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Jan 19 2017, 12:03 PM) *
Lynton Crosby didn't do anything on the EU referendum.

I was under the impression that there was a lot of pressure from Cameron's group to run the campaign along his usual lines.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 19 2017, 12:25 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 18 2017, 09:08 PM) *
topped off with regular doses of a US President thinking he's entitled to give instructions to us on how we should vote


err poor obama, one sentence about trade talk realities, at the behest of cameron, and he gets slagged off by the press and everyone else. sad.gif

as opposed to farage, who actually went and campaigned for Trump, and Trump who keeps sticking his nose in the referendum beforehand, Scottish affairs, political trade appointees in the UK, and European affairs generally.

Trumps; front of the Q, by the way, will be front of a great deal for the USA around about 2022, assuming he's still in office then...or unless he has plans on making the UK the next state of the USA...

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 19 2017, 12:37 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 19 2017, 12:09 PM) *
I was under the impression that there was a lot of pressure from Cameron's group to run the campaign along his usual lines.

Oh definitely, but Lynton stayed out and apparently the campaign was weakened a lot from being run as almost a parody of what a Crosby campaign is supposed to be. In the words of Mandelson, "as one of the so-called proponents of focused messaging, even I never ran it to the stage where it meant literally talking about one thing over and over and saying absolutely nothing else". And of course as you say, it's impossible to run an 'economy is safer this way' campaign without the media onside.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 19 2017, 12:44 PM

Ultimately I suppose it came down to how the two sides managed the contrasting ideologies and messages of their constituent parts. Leave did a better job of pitching to voters who wanted stricter immigration / more "sovereignty" / less regulation without putting off those who were turned off by one or more of them, than Remain did trying to balance economic security / protection of progressive reforms / liberal Europhilia (the last one is a bit clunky but I couldn't really think of another way to put it).

Posted by: Danny Jan 19 2017, 01:45 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jan 19 2017, 12:25 PM) *
err poor obama, one sentence about trade talk realities, at the behest of cameron, and he gets slagged off by the press and everyone else. sad.gif


Whether it was "reality" or not, it was still horrible politics. The whole tone of what he said sounded arrogant and presumptuous, reminding people of the humiliation when Britain was seen as "America's poodle" in the Blair years (something which was never just confined to lefties). Hence why, from that day on, Leave being the "patriotic" choice became MUCH more widespread belief than it had previously, to prove to ourselves that we don't just do what we're told by other countries.

Posted by: Danny Jan 19 2017, 01:50 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Jan 19 2017, 12:37 PM) *
Oh definitely, but Lynton stayed out and apparently the campaign was weakened a lot from being run as almost a parody of what a Crosby campaign is supposed to be. In the words of Mandelson, "as one of the so-called proponents of focused messaging, even I never ran it to the stage where it meant literally talking about one thing over and over and saying absolutely nothing else". And of course as you say, it's impossible to run an 'economy is safer this way' campaign without the media onside.


The Tories completely misunderstood why they won the 2015 election. It wasn't because of "economic security" at all -- it was because, just like most of the successful campaigns of recent years, they pointed to some villains (in the Tories' case, the villains were immigrants, welfare claimants, and most importantly, the "uppity Scots") and implicitly made the message "if we take something from those villains, there'll be more for People Like You". A happy-clappy "centrist" message of "we can all be winners" as peddled by Clinton and Miliband just can't compete (whereas a Bernie Sanders-style campaign of identifying different villains - namely greedy rich people, banks and big multinational companies - would atleast have a chance of beating the populist right at their own game).

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 19 2017, 07:28 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Jan 19 2017, 01:45 PM) *
Whether it was "reality" or not, it was still horrible politics. The whole tone of what he said sounded arrogant and presumptuous, reminding people of the humiliation when Britain was seen as "America's poodle" in the Blair years (something which was never just confined to lefties). Hence why, from that day on, Leave being the "patriotic" choice became MUCH more widespread belief than it had previously, to prove to ourselves that we don't just do what we're told by other countries.


and you're right, Leavers don't want to hear facts and, yes, reality (trade deals take years, those that don't are badly-written for one side - "whatever you want Mr Trump, yessirreeee that'll do for us no prob") from one of the smartest, well-meaning and most reasonable world politicians of my lifetime, they want a spot of brainless flag-waving pumped up by a load of lying rich right-wingers.

Soon find out how much we are not going to be told what to do by other countries when we want their trade, raw materials and goods and they want our...errr....weapons of mass destruction? tongue.gif

Posted by: Silas Jan 21 2017, 11:52 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/20/nissan-review-sunderland-plant-competitiveness-post-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=209518&subid=18315705&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Turns out those assurances that Theresa May gave Nissan might not be up to much scratch after all. CEO of Renault-Nissan admitted this week that post-Brexit a 'competitiveness review' would be done on Sunderland.

It's worth keeping in mind that while Nissan is still technically an independent entity: it shares a CEO with Renault, Renault own over 40% of the shares in Nissan with voting rights (Nissan's 30% Renault stake has no voting rights) and most importantly the largest shareholder in Renault that has voting rights is the French Government at just under 20%. A French government that regardless of who is in power backs it's motor industry to the nth degree, in return for assurances on factories in France. During 2008 crisis when both PSA and Renault SA got hit by major sales collapses, neither shut a single factory in France and got some nice loans from the French state in return...

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 21 2017, 02:48 PM

So even with a sweetener (undisclosed, the usual government/local gov Get Out OF Jail Free card "financial confidentiality" - with OUR tax payer money!) Nissan may leave anyway if Brexit goes tits up and they can't sell cars in Europe without hefty tax hikes.

Pound at it's lowest in decades, and we haven't yet left, or negotiated a thing, and the only reason the conomy hasnt plummeted too so far is due to the BoE support measures (the UK has been on BofE life support for nearly a decade now).

Yet things look warm and glowing to idiots believing Tory press headlines....

Shock on the way down the line...

Posted by: Envoirment Jan 23 2017, 12:43 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jan 21 2017, 02:48 PM) *
So even with a sweetener (undisclosed, the usual government/local gov Get Out OF Jail Free card "financial confidentiality" - with OUR tax payer money!) Nissan may leave anyway if Brexit goes tits up and they can't sell cars in Europe without hefty tax hikes.

Pound at it's lowest in decades, and we haven't yet left, or negotiated a thing, and the only reason the conomy hasnt plummeted too so far is due to the BoE support measures (the UK has been on BofE life support for nearly a decade now).

Yet things look warm and glowing to idiots believing Tory press headlines....

Shock on the way down the line...


I suppose the good thing is that the economic turmoil hasn't been as bad as it could've been so far and doesn't look to be a huge disaster for the future. A lot of businesses will likely reshuffle themselves to either move to a country in the EU or move part of their activities there (like banks rellocating some employees/jobs to the EU). Consumer spending has been keeping the economy afloat a good degree as well, and with inflation rising we'll see how long that'll last - although wage growth was outpacing inflation at the end of last year, it may fall behind it this year. The government are set to spend more on infrastructure than previously (when Cameron was PM) and are pumping more money into R&D. Both of those things could help the economy, although the benefits of the big infrastucture projects - HS2, Hinkley Point & Heathrow's third runway, won't be seen for another decade or so (if they do make a positive impact). Which isn't a bad thing as investing in the future, as they seem to being doing, can be very beneficial.

In the short term Brexit is going to cause a lot of uncertainty and slow growth, but long term it may not cause too much damage if a decent deal can be made and the government spend accordingly. Although I'm hoping they will avoid making the UK a tax haven and focus on maintaining/increasing living standards for most people instead of lining the pockets of a few. A conservative government doesn't give me too much hope about that last bit though.

P.S: The pound may go either way - the more clarity on brexit and negotiations the less likely the pound will suffer and it may just stagnate at around its current value for the next year or two. If a good deal is reached, it'll likely rise a bit. If a bad deal is reached or we just leave without a deal, I'd expect the pound to drop significantly. In saying that Trump's in office now and a lot of what he does and its effects on the dollar (which is overvalued and there may be efforts to devalue somewhat) will also determine the pound's value. As well as interest rate rises in the US and possibly in the UK.

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 26 2017, 08:13 PM

I see Jezza has put a three line whip on the Article 50 vote - such a strange thing to do IMO!

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jan 26 2017, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 26 2017, 09:13 PM) *
I see Jezza has put a three line whip on the Article 50 vote - such a strange thing to do IMO!


I'm sure that many Labour MPs will show the three line whip for this vote the same respect that Jeremy gave it when he was a backbencher.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 26 2017, 09:45 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jan 23 2017, 12:43 AM) *
I suppose the good thing is that the economic turmoil hasn't been as bad as it could've been so far and doesn't look to be a huge disaster for the future.


There are economists saying there's a feel-good factor going on (which actually makes sense) as those voting to leave feel pretty good about it all, and optimistic, despite the fall in the pound. As the higher prices and lower wage hikes, and job losses start to kick in though, things won't look quite so rosy. A Tax Haven country is doomed for one as large as us, so that is just idle threats. No country as large as ours can sustain the loss of revenue - the tax-dodging companies actually contribute little, that's why they are dodging off to offshore islands who can afford a tiny bit of tax to keep them going. The Eu will just hammer us if we try it (on the grounds they already have tax-havens in the Netherlands, Luxembourg etc and it will be a race downwards to pay zero corporation tax and everyone loses - except the giant internationals)

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 26 2017, 11:21 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Jan 26 2017, 08:39 PM) *
I'm sure that many Labour MPs will show the three line whip for this vote the same respect that Jeremy gave it when he was a backbencher.


In fairness to Jezza he voted for legislation that was progressive and opposed legislation that he felt was regressive, fair play to him!

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 26 2017, 11:39 PM

Well on face value, the Article 50 rebels will be doing the same thing?

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 27 2017, 12:42 AM

I know which is why I raised the issue about why he is having a 3-line whip!

Diane Abbot spoke well (for once) on QT arguing well that they were trying to respect the referendum result.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 27 2017, 12:41 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 26 2017, 11:39 PM) *
Well on face value, the Article 50 rebels will be doing the same thing?

Absolutely they will, especially if they represent an area that voted. 100% of the country didnt vote for Brexit so why Corbyn is so obsessed with attempting to show 100% of MP's should vote for it is bizarre when it can be argued it's vital for the nations interest to get it right.

Either way they will piss off a legion of Labour voters, and Labour Leavers are more likely to vote UKIP and Tory than Labour Remoaners likely to vote for parties other than Labour. Of course, Corbyn DID actually want Brexit, and that's what he campaigned for in the many times he had opportunities to slag off the EU pre-Leader.

So he should do what's right not what is expedient, partly his fault we are in this mess in the first place with his piss-poor 6 or 7 out of 10 half-hearted low-key support for Remain, late in the day. Even the assassination of one of his own MP's couldn't get him to fire up about the lying Leave campaigners.


Posted by: Silas Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM

The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 27 2017, 09:31 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jan 27 2017, 12:41 PM) *
Absolutely they will, especially if they represent an area that voted. 100% of the country didnt vote for Brexit so why Corbyn is so obsessed with attempting to show 100% of MP's should vote for it is bizarre when it can be argued it's vital for the nations interest to get it right.

Either way they will piss off a legion of Labour voters, and Labour Leavers are more likely to vote UKIP and Tory than Labour Remoaners likely to vote for parties other than Labour. Of course, Corbyn DID actually want Brexit, and that's what he campaigned for in the many times he had opportunities to slag off the EU pre-Leader.

So he should do what's right not what is expedient, partly his fault we are in this mess in the first place with his piss-poor 6 or 7 out of 10 half-hearted low-key support for Remain, late in the day. Even the assassination of one of his own MP's couldn't get him to fire up about the lying Leave campaigners.


66% of Labour voters voted to remain - the ones who voted Brexit are hardly all Corbyns fault!

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 27 2017, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM) *
The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that


BLAME CAMERON!!

Posted by: Queen LeQueefa Jan 27 2017, 09:38 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM) *
The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that


100% THIS!

Posted by: Queen LeQueefa Jan 27 2017, 09:39 PM

Just we will re-enter with diminished power and respect and also the inability to pick and choose as we have right now. We literally had the best of both worlds in the EU and led it along with France and Germany.

Posted by: Silas Jan 27 2017, 10:28 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 27 2017, 09:33 PM) *
BLAME CAMERON!!

There's a special place in hell for that snivelling pig-shagging c**t.

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 27 2017, 10:51 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 27 2017, 12:42 AM) *
I know which is why I raised the issue about why he is having a 3-line whip!

Diane Abbot spoke well (for once) on QT arguing well that they were trying to respect the referendum result.

There's no way he'd have stuck to that line if the referendum had been on welfare.

I can't say I envy him the decision, but Labour wouldn't be in anywhere near as perilous a position if they'd had an at least vaguely regarded leader to begin with. It's the combination of his diabolical reputation with the public and the (very admittedly) brutal cleaving of the electorate that's got it to this stage.

----

I'm absolutely not a fan whatsoever of David Miliband and think he was exceptionally overrated, but christ - we wouldn't be here if only the aloof prick had deigned to talk to a few more backbenchers personally for second preferences. I don't think he'd have won in 2015, but there's a very good argument that the SNP surge wouldn't have happened (ironically for "branch office" reasons - there's no way DM would have allowed Iain Gray to lead Scottish Labour into the 2011 election. Just enough seats to prevent an SNP majority = no independence referendum = no SNP surge in 2015 = minority Tory or Labour government now. I'd take that.)

(sorry, it's one of those evenings.)

Posted by: Silas Jan 27 2017, 11:16 PM

You forget that the Green's are Pro-Indy and have more than a single token seat in Scotland. Like now, being just under a majority would still get indyref through with Green support.

Posted by: Queen LeQueefa Jan 27 2017, 11:18 PM

I am a huge Corbyn fan, but with the media on his case, unless we're getting massively OFF opinion polls and coming for another Trump-style win, then we are in a One Party State.

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 28 2017, 11:07 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 11:16 PM) *
You forget that the Green's are Pro-Indy and have more than a single token seat in Scotland. Like now, being just under a majority would still get indyref through with Green support.

They only had two seats in 2011 though. A lot of SNP constituency gains in 2011 were with narrow majorities - Labour would've only needed to hold on to about 800 votes against the SNP in this scenario in each of about eight or nine seats (when accounting for recompensating gains for the SNP on the list as a result of the losses) for there to have not been a pro-independence majority.

Posted by: Silas Jan 28 2017, 11:27 PM

The constituency vote for Labour was only off 0.5% v 2007

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 29 2017, 12:44 AM

Corbyn is leader that's the fact and until you understand the reasons why it's Come to this centrists will never get back to where they were in 2007!

Posted by: Qassändra Jan 29 2017, 07:06 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 28 2017, 11:27 PM) *
The constituency vote for Labour was only off 0.5% v 2007

Yes, that doesn't really change that only a relatively small number of votes needed to be held by Labour vs the SNP for the pro-independence parties to not get a majority though. The constituency vote was only 0.5% down, but it was in part because the shift of voters from Labour to the SNP was disguised by the number that went from the Lib Dems to Labour. Similar to how Labour's vote in 2015 actually went up because of Lib Dem converts (who were distributed unevenly across the country), which disguised that a lot went to Ukip and the Tories.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 29 2017, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 29 2017, 12:44 AM) *
Corbyn is leader that's the fact and until you understand the reasons why it's Come to this centrists will never get back to where they were in 2007!


Corbyn won't make the next election as leader. The Unions are already making noises about his crap performance since the "Blairites" shut their mouths and they had no-one to villify. Grassroots Remoaners are also criticising and begging him to do the decent thing. To coin an old phrase, being criticised by Corbyn is like being savaged be a dead sheep.

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 29 2017, 10:54 PM

I wasn't talking about Corbyn being leader I was talking about centrists vs the left - whether Corbyn or another is leader it doesn't matter.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jan 30 2017, 12:33 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 29 2017, 10:54 PM) *
I wasn't talking about Corbyn being leader I was talking about centrists vs the left - whether Corbyn or another is leader it doesn't matter.


an effective leftist leader is better than an ineffective one, but there hasn't been a hint of a leftist government elected in England for, what, 43 years (just barely) and I'd argue not since the Second World War ended when the country was in utter dire straits, so it doesn't exactly look rosy for any non-centrist Labour party getting elected at a time when the Far Right is mopping up the working class white votes.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Jan 30 2017, 01:29 PM

I'd say that's a simplistic argument, although Corbyn isn't really doing much to disprove it.

Posted by: vidcapper Jan 30 2017, 02:48 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Jan 27 2017, 01:11 PM) *
The Article 50 bill is an outrageous farcical heap of shite and should be voted down. It's not even an A4 page!!!

I think MPs should vote in line with their constituencies. They put them in office to represent their views after all. 58/59 Scottish MPs will. The other being that rancid twat Mundell who said last week it wasn't his job, as Secretary of State for Scotland, to advocate in cabinet for Scotlands interests.

The whole brexit thing is pointless. Within 2 decades the brexiting old will all be dead blissfully unaware of the pain they've caused with their bigoted selfishness and the millennials will finally be taking over the halls of power and well just go back in. Why leave when we're just going to return anyway. Pro-EU sentiment among the under 35s is up in the 70's. It f***s us over the most and we're the ones most in favour of remaining!!! f*** respecting the vote. It was built on lies and murder. f*** Farage. f*** Gove and most certainly c**t off May. Bloody thing was advisory and so narrow. Yet she's acting like every single voter voted leave. f*** that


But that's how FPTP elections work - winner takes all.

Posted by: Steve201 Jan 30 2017, 09:59 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Jan 30 2017, 01:29 PM) *
I'd say that's a simplistic argument, although Corbyn isn't really doing much to disprove it.


I look at Corbyn as a George Lansbury figure and an Atlee will follow after a few years. Let's hope Donald Trump doesn't lead to world war 3 between that!!

Posted by: burbe Feb 1 2017, 07:49 PM

498 - 114 for the vote sad.gif

I knew the government would always win but I didn't think by that much. Very disappointed with that.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Feb 1 2017, 10:35 PM

The SNP, Lib Dems, and a Ken Clark voted against the motion, as well as 47 Labour MPs. Ironically, 3 Labour whips voted against the whip that it was their job to maintain.

Posted by: Silas Feb 1 2017, 10:46 PM

The Scottish Labour MP voted with the SNP. Only the spineless Tory didn't. You should have a moral obligation to your constituents over your party. You're elected to represent the people of the Scottish Borders, not the ideology of Theresa May.

Posted by: Danny Feb 2 2017, 03:46 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Feb 1 2017, 10:46 PM) *
The Scottish Labour MP voted with the SNP. Only the spineless Tory didn't. You should have a moral obligation to your constituents over your party. You're elected to represent the people of the Scottish Borders, not the ideology of Theresa May.


By the logic of being bound by your constituents, the SNP MP for Banff & Buchan should (probably) have voted for Brexit tongue.gif

Posted by: Qassändra Feb 2 2017, 03:56 PM

QUOTE(Danny @ Feb 2 2017, 03:46 PM) *
By the logic of being bound by your constituents, the SNP MP for Banff & Buchan should (probably) have voted for Brexit tongue.gif

Ha. Is it estimated to have voted Brexit at constituency level?

I don't really have much truck with the constituent rep/national rep argument either way. It's a representative system, not a delegate system - take your position and fight your election on it.

Posted by: Danny Feb 2 2017, 04:00 PM

QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 2 2017, 03:56 PM) *
Ha. Is it estimated to have voted Brexit at constituency level?

I don't really have much truck with the constituent rep/national rep argument either way. It's a representative system, not a delegate system - take your position and fight your election on it.


Yeah. Some elections expert produced estimates for every constituency, based on demographic data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wTK5dV2_YjCMsUYlwg0l48uWWf44sKgG8uFVMv5OWlA/edit#gid=893960794

B&B was the only Scottish constituency estimated to vote Leave, although Caithness and Moray were both very close.

Posted by: Silas Feb 2 2017, 04:27 PM

I was always surprised to see Moray vote remain. Fishing dominates the local economy

Posted by: Steve201 Feb 3 2017, 10:41 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Feb 1 2017, 10:35 PM) *
The SNP, Lib Dems, and a Ken Clark voted against the motion, as well as 47 Labour MPs. Ironically, 3 Labour whips voted against the whip that it was their job to maintain.


Don't forget the SDLP and Green!!

Posted by: Brett-Butler Feb 3 2017, 10:59 PM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 3 2017, 11:41 PM) *
Don't forget the SDLP and Green!!


Yes, I really shouldn't have forgotten the SDLP. Given that Northern Ireland voted Remain overall, notable that only 17% of our MPs voted that way in parliament (I think - I'm assuming that the two UUPs & Lady Sylvia either voted for it or didn't vote, and of course Sinn Fein don't take their seats).

Posted by: Steve201 Feb 5 2017, 01:35 AM

Yeh Sylvia voted to remain!

Posted by: popchartfreak Feb 26 2017, 11:04 PM

Turns out there was a huge media elitist political secretive conspiracy. farage was right all along, and he should have known better than anyone......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

just lied about who was behind it. Suddenly everything makes much more sense - what seems to be a worldwide grassroots movement spontaneously erupting is nothing of the kind....

Posted by: Brett-Butler Feb 27 2017, 08:35 PM

Well, isn't this just great. With the way the Brexit negotiations are going, http://sluggerotoole.com/2017/02/27/new-brexit-bombshell-irish-citizen-rights-to-enter-great-britain-may-change-within-a-month-even-for-northerners-the-answer-so-far-take-out-a-british-passport-if-you-can-quick/ that I could be "deported" to the Republic of Ireland once the UK leaves the European Union, even though I am from Belfast, as I have an Irish passport, which superseded my British passport. Hopefully the Brexit negotiations will sort out this quirk, but for it even to be possible is a trifle troubling.

Posted by: burbe Mar 1 2017, 06:56 PM

The House of Lords proving its worth on the Brexit bill *.* They've made an amendment to protect EU citizens' rights, thankfully.

Posted by: Silas Mar 2 2017, 05:46 PM

Oh the House of Lords is so getting abolished *.* Shame that it's gonna come at a time when they've arguably been continually acting in the public interest more than the government for the past 20months

Posted by: Queen LeQueefa Mar 2 2017, 05:51 PM

Amazing that it is the status quo right wing Conservstives who will be doing rh Abolishing! laugh.gif

Power is addictive and these Eton lot will never relinquish it after having it for centuries. They will turn Little England into a one pary state with no balances after Ref 2. For the MAJORITY of us who don't vote Tory it will be little better than a dictatorship.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 2 2017, 06:50 PM

For the first time ever the Tories are having to endure what every Labour government is history has faced, a lack of a majority in the House of Lords. Suddenly they have decided that they don't like it. Funny that.

When the Leave campaign ran with the slogan "Take back control", they somehow forgot to mention that they wanted that control to be in the hands of one person rather than parliament.

Posted by: Silas Mar 2 2017, 08:55 PM

I always thought it was deeply ironic that everyone reciting of by heart the lies about the EU being undemocratic and unelected were perfectly happy with the House of Lords. The undemocratic and unelected upper house.

Posted by: burbe Mar 2 2017, 09:43 PM

I like the Lords apart from the hereditary aspect of it, it proves usefulness in protecting us in situations like this.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Mar 2 2017, 11:05 PM

I still like my idea of having the members of the House of Lords chosen at random by an annual draw.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Mar 3 2017, 08:48 AM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Mar 2 2017, 11:05 PM) *
I still like my idea of having the members of the House of Lords chosen at random by an annual draw.

House of Ords?

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 3 2017, 12:58 PM

If the current "What I say goes regardless of hundreds of years of democratic principle" unelected woman running the country goes to show it's that a Second House is vital to the effective guarding of Democracy. Now I'm not in favour of hereditary peers, and I would prefer the chamber to be elected 2 years after the last election if we go that route - but the current system has at least the advantage of a skillset available that elected potential third-rate farage's lack.

A single Parliament is a very bad idea, they rush through half-arsed legislation at the drop of a hat and with little planning and forethought as it is.....

Posted by: Envoirment Mar 12 2017, 02:59 AM

Article 50 could be triggered next week if the Brexit bill passes through the commons on Monday.

Posted by: bad gal lotita Mar 21 2017, 02:18 PM

29th March. can we call this the blackest day.

i'm still f***ing terrified about what brexit means for me. pls just let all of these rumours about european citizenship for any brits who want it to be true

Posted by: Silas Mar 21 2017, 02:48 PM

Scottish Government found out from BBC News mellow.gif

Posted by: Suedehead2 Mar 21 2017, 03:19 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ Mar 21 2017, 02:48 PM) *
Scottish Government found out from BBC News mellow.gif

But all four nations will be full involved at all stages in the process. It must be true, Mrs Mayhem said so rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap Mar 21 2017, 05:38 PM

QUOTE(bad gal lotita @ Mar 21 2017, 02:18 PM) *
29th March. can we call this the blackest day.

i'm still f***ing terrified about what brexit means for me. pls just let all of these rumours about european citizenship for any brits who want it to be true


My hope against hope sad.gif

Posted by: Silas Mar 21 2017, 06:09 PM

I will sell my soul to keep EU citizen rights

Posted by: Klaus Mar 29 2017, 11:45 AM

The letter has been sent. It is starting.

Posted by: Same Ol' Andrew Mar 29 2017, 03:57 PM

What a sad sad day for the UK.

Posted by: Klaus Mar 29 2017, 05:11 PM



'For ten years, the Mail has campaigned for this day. We have not wavered in our conviction that Britain's best and brightest future is with Europe'




(yes there's been a change in the EU's position today but this is actually hilarious!!)

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap Mar 29 2017, 05:21 PM

Crap.

The interviwws of people on the news shows how ignorant and uninformed and brainwashed by the press a lot of voters were.

This should never have gone to a vote.

And the scant 'majority' should never have led to Brexit. This is just to stop the Tories losing any voters to UKIP. Disgusting.

Posted by: Rooney Mar 29 2017, 07:19 PM

I must admit, it's quite a sad day.

Quite scary to think of many aspects of our economy and business that will be greatly affected. Going to be major talent gaps for certain areas.

Posted by: popchartfreak Mar 29 2017, 07:21 PM

Brexiters still remain utterly convinced that the EU will roll over and do what we want, and that even if we leave without a deal it wont really affect anything much.

Oops. If they are right I will humbly admit that I, all credible experts, most politicians, and the bulk of most countries are wrong, and experts really don't know jack shit.

If it all goes pear shaped I am never going to stop reminding anyone who voted for it what they have done to the country.

Because you can be 100% certain if it goes right they will be bullying everyone to never offer up a democratic alternative opinion and will crow and crow and crow, just as they constantly harp on already about remoaners after a mere 9 months of alternative viewpoints (we've had 2 decades plus to endure of them). So what goes around comes around...


Posted by: Envoirment Mar 29 2017, 10:16 PM

The EU have seemingly softened their position a bit at least. I do think a win-win situation can be achieved, but it'll take a lot of work. We'll have to see how the French presidential election goes first though - if Le Pen manages a "surprise" win that could throw a spanner in the works.

Posted by: Emperor Silas Mar 29 2017, 11:37 PM

The utter hypocrisy is mind blowing. Scotland can't vote until Brexit has been well implemented coz it's unfair to vote on something we don't really know about but we can get pulled out of the EU by a lying red f***ing bus?!?!

9 months later we still have no actual plan. There's no idea of the consequences of a disorderly exit, nor planning for what will happen without transitional arrangements. It's a farce.

A blatant power grab by Cameron has destroyed our future economic prosperity, bitterly divided the country and will lead to the break up of the UK and the reunification of Ireland. I hope history remembers him as the desperate opportunistic weasel he is.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 2 2017, 08:54 AM

According to the Sunday Express (meaning it might be complete rubbish) the blue passport is to return at a cost of half a billion quid. Even 50p to do something so utterly pointless would be a waste of money.

Posted by: Steve201 Apr 2 2017, 06:26 PM

QUOTE(Emperor Silas @ Mar 30 2017, 12:37 AM) *
The utter hypocrisy is mind blowing. Scotland can't vote until Brexit has been well implemented coz it's unfair to vote on something we don't really know about but we can get pulled out of the EU by a lying red f***ing bus?!?!

9 months later we still have no actual plan. There's no idea of the consequences of a disorderly exit, nor planning for what will happen without transitional arrangements. It's a farce.

A blatant power grab by Cameron has destroyed our future economic prosperity, bitterly divided the country and will lead to the break up of the UK and the reunification of Ireland. I hope history remembers him as the desperate opportunistic weasel he is.


Well the reunification of Ireland would be a great event and undo a great injustice of the past!

Posted by: Brétt-Butler Apr 3 2017, 05:17 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 2 2017, 09:54 AM) *
According to the Sunday Express (meaning it might be complete rubbish) the blue passport is to return at a cost of half a billion quid. Even 50p to do something so utterly pointless would be a waste of money.


Ironically (if what I've read is true), the United Kingdom could've changed the colour of the passport back to blue even if they were within the EU. The EU recommends that its countries use the red passport, but it is not required. Croatia's is black, for example.

Posted by: BuzzzJack Apr 4 2017, 11:53 AM

QUOTE(Brétt-Butler @ Apr 3 2017, 06:17 PM) *
Ironically (if what I've read is true), the United Kingdom could've changed the colour of the passport back to blue even if they were within the EU. The EU recommends that its countries use the red passport, but it is not required. Croatia's is black, for example.


Lmao!

Posted by: Emperor Silas Apr 4 2017, 12:26 PM

Is Croatia's black because it only joined in 2013 and their new passport may be Burgundy whenever they issue it?

Interesting if it is the case though. Another example of EU regulations that Brexiteers are crying about that is actually a result of the UK improperly applying the law. See the rules on Free Movement that haven't been fully applied by both parties since it came into force.

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 4 2017, 09:03 PM

Back with policies and official government statements:

May has announced (while selling weapons in the Middle East, where Trump is busy bombing and assisting a regime gassing children) that there will be NO trade deal before the 2 years of Brexit is up, just the divorce itself and a vague outline of what may be talked about for some undisclosed length of time after that.

May has also said the number of immigrants into the UK may go UP after Brexit.

The 350m pounds a week for the NHS pushed by those doing all the trade and divorce talks is being spent on the divorce (and then some many billions more), which is being hacked at, along with Councils and social services.

The pound hasnt shot up and wildly returned to it's pre-referendum status, and the only reason it hasnt sunk lower is the Bank Of England increased debt bailing out (ie increasing national debt that has yet to be paid back from the banking crisis)

Spain can turn down any deal if the British get pissy about Gibraltar.

The EU can get pissy about the British current soft border in Ireland, and do in a trade deal.

Scotland may vote to break up the UK.

So, to all the rosetinted Leavers as we sit here 2 weeks after triggering A50, us Remoaners would like to know exactly what parts of Project Fear have turned out to be lies, and what parts of all the promises that were made by the lying gits now running the country about sunshine, lollipops and roses lying ahead have actually turned out to be true.

"Let's get positive" say the twots, oblivious to reality, "and focus on the bright future ahead".

So give us some positive definitive good news that we can point to as a success? Just one example will do, not much to ask.....

Posted by: Doctor Blind Apr 10 2017, 05:01 PM

I mean you've probably already seen this on your timelines/feeds but it is so worth another watch IMO:



The Jeremy Corbyn bit had me in stitches!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Apr 17 2017, 10:38 AM

You couldn't make it up part 351,073

The EU has, perfectly reasonably, started thinking about where to move UK-based institutions so that they remain based in the EU. Some Leave supporters are outraged, describing it as "punishment".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-voters_uk_58f47aefe4b0da2ff8619ddb?

Posted by: Emperor Silas Apr 17 2017, 11:05 AM

Brexiteers are the most delusional people. Like of course the EU bodies aren't going stay in a country that will soon be out of its borders. What kind of utter moron thinks they would??? Oh yeah, an idiot who voted for Brexit.


It's a shame we no longer have an empire, a penal colony would come in handy right now.

Posted by: popchartfreak Apr 17 2017, 02:47 PM

Yes, we can expect years of these 'EU plotting" delusional headlines pushed by The Right-wing rags and their idiot supporters looking for propaganda victories as they try and blame everyone except themselves. It's not as if the fools weren't warned about it all before the vote: they chose to dismiss it all as "Project Fear" and the more they protest about it all coming true the more dumb and sulkingly vitriolic they look. SHOCK HORROR: The EU are doing exactly what they said they do before the referendum, and were accused of scare-tactics because they need our business (they don't).

They complain about anyone pointing out facts before the referendum that they didn't agree with, they complain about anyone pointing out what is happening now, complain about anyone pointing out what is going to happen, have complained for 20 years about the EU, complain about anyone not holding their rose-tinted foolhardy viewpoint (insisting we should all snowflake remoaner shut up and stop reminding them how thick - or what lying gits - they are). Moan moan moan.

I have yet to have one offer of a goodnews post-Brexit fact taken up. Not even a tiny little one (and I can think of a couple of small teeny tiny upsides, all on my own).

Posted by: vidcapper May 16 2017, 10:11 AM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ Apr 2 2017, 07:26 PM) *
Well the reunification of Ireland would be a great event and undo a great injustice of the past!


But in undoing one, it would create another...

QUOTE(Emperor Silas @ Apr 17 2017, 12:05 PM) *
Brexiteers are the most delusional people. Like of course the EU bodies aren't going stay in a country that will soon be out of its borders. What kind of utter moron thinks they would??? Oh yeah, an idiot who voted for Brexit.
It's a shame we no longer have an empire, a penal colony would come in handy right now.


Given that Brexiters are in the majority that might not be the best idea... teresa.gif

Posted by: Silas May 16 2017, 11:09 AM

Well you lot keep saying we're "full" so kicking 17 million of you out will relieve a lot of pressure on our NHS and Education system....

Posted by: Silas May 16 2017, 11:10 AM

How would the reunification of Ireland create an injustice??

Posted by: popchartfreak May 16 2017, 11:44 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 16 2017, 11:11 AM) *
But in undoing one, it would create another...
Given that Brexiters are in the majority that might not be the best idea... teresa.gif


Sounds like a Nazi threat there, how nice and cosy. I think you'll find they were in the majority too and managed to murder, ooh, tens of millions.

being in the majority, and in power, does not mean you are necessarily right. Gloating instead of listening to people with genuine concerns also does nothing to persuade people of any reasoned arguments you might have - not that I have seen any of course teresa.gif

Posted by: vidcapper May 16 2017, 02:33 PM

QUOTE(Silas @ May 16 2017, 12:10 PM) *
How would the reunification of Ireland create an injustice??


Because half the population of NI consider themselves British, and would not be happy at possibly losing that identity!

Posted by: vidcapper May 16 2017, 02:35 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ May 16 2017, 12:44 PM) *
Sounds like a Nazi threat there, how nice and cosy. I think you'll find they were in the majority too and managed to murder, ooh, tens of millions.


Talk to 'Emperor Silas' about that - *he* was the one who suggested penal colonies...

Posted by: Silas May 16 2017, 03:59 PM

Very flippantly

Posted by: vidcapper May 17 2017, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(Silas @ May 16 2017, 04:59 PM) *
Very flippantly


My comment was flippant too, hence my use of teresa.gif

Posted by: Steve201 May 21 2017, 12:27 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 16 2017, 03:33 PM) *
Because half the population of NI consider themselves British, and would not be happy at possibly losing that identity!


I'm pretty sure they could still keep their identity in a reunified Ireland.

The only injustice was the lose of the unionist argument through increased democracy in the last 19th century in Ireland and when they lost the argument they changed the rules by drawing an imaginary artificial border on the island to create a polarised sectarian state. (With the threat of violence by the UVF and threat of treason by members of the Tory Party!)

Posted by: vidcapper May 21 2017, 09:23 AM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ May 21 2017, 01:27 AM) *
I'm pretty sure they could still keep their identity in a reunified Ireland.


Do you mean joint citizenship?

Posted by: Steve201 May 21 2017, 11:02 AM

It's the same in NI now as people can get a Irish or British passport. Also politically in an all-Ireland parliament they would have a huge say due to the nature of the voting system and for example would most likely be in coalition with Fine Gael right now!!

Posted by: vidcapper May 23 2017, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(Steve201 @ May 21 2017, 12:02 PM) *
It's the same in NI now as people can get a Irish or British passport. Also politically in an all-Ireland parliament they would have a huge say due to the nature of the voting system and for example would most likely be in coalition with Fine Gael right now!!


It''s hard to say how NI voters would realign, given the political split has been between unionist & nationalist for so long, rather than the left/right of the British mainland.

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 17 2017, 11:23 AM

Two very different articles in the media today...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/majority-of-brexiters-would-swap-free-movement-for-eu-market-access

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4701874/Tony-Blair-s-poll-says-Britons-want-Hard-Brexit.html

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 17 2017, 11:49 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 17 2017, 12:23 PM) *
Two very different articles in the media today...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/majority-of-brexiters-would-swap-free-movement-for-eu-market-access

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4701874/Tony-Blair-s-poll-says-Britons-want-Hard-Brexit.html


Most people accept the ref result (even though it was all lies) so thats why figures are high for leaving the EU. The real problem for the Brexiteering froth-mouthers is that most of the country doesn't want to go down the economic plughole as a result, and that must happen with a hard Brexit. The likes of Davies, Johnson, Gove, Farage and may just look like complete lying morons as reality bites. As they always did to people who were never fooled by the lies and blagging. Just look at how haggard Davies looks in the photos today compared to the fresh-looking EU reps. He knows he is going to look like the fool that he is.

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 17 2017, 02:13 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 17 2017, 12:49 PM) *
Most people accept the ref result (even though it was all lies) so thats why figures are high for leaving the EU. The real problem for the Brexiteering froth-mouthers is that most of the country doesn't want to go down the economic plughole as a result, and that must happen with a hard Brexit.


A claim I must've heard hundreds of times in the last year, but with no more evidence to support it than any of the other scaremongering of Project Fear...

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 17 2017, 02:45 PM

The staged pictures of the two sides at the start of the negotiations spoke volumes. The EU27 people had a whole load of papers in front of them; Davis had nothing. Clearly both sides had come armed with a summary of their plans.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 17 2017, 02:45 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 17 2017, 03:13 PM) *
A claim I must've heard hundreds of times in the last year, but with no more evidence to support it than any of the other scaremongering of Project Fear...

Falling pound, rising inflation, slowing growth. Do you need any more?

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 17 2017, 07:58 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 17 2017, 03:13 PM) *
A claim I must've heard hundreds of times in the last year, but with no more evidence to support it than any of the other scaremongering of Project Fear...


I will echo Suedey, and challenge you to go look up the figures (not that you will take it up you never do), so a pound that has plummeted and stayed plummeted (inflation is a thing, people are already worse off), the lowest growth in the EU (lower than Greece FFS) and the lowest in the G7 is Project Fear? Businesses issuing warnings, German car manufacturers stating they will support the EU position, companies moving to the EU is just Project Fear? You are SO self-deluded and ill-informed. The UK has no plan, never has had a plan, Leave never expected to win. They were shuffling for PM jobs and were willing to put the economic well-being of everyone who isnt rich into the roulette wheel for the sake of their egos. That includes Corbyn and May who both took a profile so low they were basically horizontal, despite being nominally "Remainers" (they are both Leavers through and through, all that differs is the degree of Leave)

I remind you that WE ARE STILL IN THE EU AND THE ECONOMY HAS ALREADY TANKED! It will be much much much worse when we leave, unless we take years to do it properly and gradually.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 17 2017, 10:58 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 17 2017, 03:13 PM) *
A claim I must've heard hundreds of times in the last year, but with no more evidence to support it than any of the other scaremongering of Project Fear...


I'm surprised the Remoaner crybabies are still trying the scaremongering and Project Fear tactic, it didn't work when George Osborne was Chancellor and it isn't gonna work now.

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 18 2017, 05:27 AM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 17 2017, 03:45 PM) *
Falling pound, rising inflation, slowing growth. Do you need any more?


All of the above have happened before, without any connection to Brexit.


QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 17 2017, 08:58 PM) *
I remind you that WE ARE STILL IN THE EU AND THE ECONOMY HAS ALREADY TANKED! It will be much much much worse when we leave, unless we take years to do it properly and gradually.


The above just proves that being in the EU is no protection. wink.gif

The original Remainer claim was that everything would go to hell the instant we voted out, but since that hasn't happened, they've since engaged in a constant goalpost-moving exercise...

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 18 2017, 05:37 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 17 2017, 11:58 PM) *
I'm surprised the Remoaner crybabies are still trying the scaremongering and Project Fear tactic, it didn't work when George Osborne was Chancellor and it isn't gonna work now.


At least the more pragmatic ones have now accepted the inevitability of Leaving - I suspect the others have fallen for the PC brainwashing that everything Britain ever did as an independent entity was 'evil' - I guess they never watched 'The Life Of Brian' and the 'What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us' scene.

Besides, Britain did nothing that any of the other colonial powers weren't also doing to the native populations - we also offered them political stability, which they didn't have before or after the colonial era.

Posted by: Harve Jul 18 2017, 05:55 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 17 2017, 11:58 PM) *
I'm surprised the Remoaner crybabies are still trying the scaremongering and Project Fear tactic, it didn't work when George Osborne was Chancellor and it isn't gonna work now.

I mean it's not a tactic, it's a depiction of what's actually happening. No the sky hasn't fallen in, but sectors-in-need are having their skills shortages compounded, such as nursing, which has seen a 96% annual fall in recruitment from the EU. Growth has slowed, imports are more expensive, inflation has risen and our wages are worth less, all while 2017 has been the Western economy's best year since the financial crisis.

Screeching "Scaremongering Remoaner crybabies!" won't change reality.

Posted by: Harve Jul 18 2017, 05:57 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 18 2017, 06:27 AM) *
All of the above have happened before, without any connection to Brexit.

Interestingly it's the very first UK slowdown which has occurred in the era of globalisation that doesn't have a partial global element to it. Entirely homemade.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 18 2017, 11:40 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 17 2017, 11:58 PM) *
I'm surprised the Remoaner crybabies are still trying the scaremongering and Project Fear tactic, it didn't work when George Osborne was Chancellor and it isn't gonna work now.


Osbourne was making predictions based on not being in the EU (we were expected to have begun the day after, not 12 months later). The current mailaise started the day after the referendum. This is an inconvenient fact to those going LaLALaLanotylisteningIknowIwaswrongButICan'tAdmititLalalalal...

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 18 2017, 11:51 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 18 2017, 06:27 AM) *
All of the above have happened before, without any connection to Brexit.
The above just proves that being in the EU is no protection. wink.gif

The original Remainer claim was that everything would go to hell the instant we voted out, but since that hasn't happened, they've since engaged in a constant goalpost-moving exercise...


all economy downturns have causes, they dont just magically happen out of thin air. Being in the EU has helped avoid things being worse, though of course you would never agree that is the case. Also, UK has always made it's own mistakes and been buffered by having EU advantages. Banking Crisis could have been avoided with proper oversight and regulation and the last 10 years wouldn't have happened. That was a UK decision, not the EU (though they also made the same mistakes, as did the USA).

Refer to my post above, re "instant we voted out" that wasn't what anyone was saying (apart from the instant fall in the pound, which was a fact, and the delayed knock-on effects, which are also a fact, and a shock to the stock market - if anyone apart from wealthy people care about that and that it is a temporary blip).

We live in world where people are proud to be dumb, and criticise anyone who isn't and has the ability to put out warnings they don't want to hear. You can tell who these people are, they are intolerant, incoherent in argument, lacking in sympathy for others well-being as long as they get their own way, and use words like "remoaner", "snowflake" and "liberal establishment" that theyve picked up from other whiny, right-wing propaganda pushers (eg Fake News biased agendas like The daily mail, Breitbart, Fox, Trump).


Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 18 2017, 12:00 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 18 2017, 06:37 AM) *
At least the more pragmatic ones have now accepted the inevitability of Leaving - I suspect the others have fallen for the PC brainwashing that everything Britain ever did as an independent entity was 'evil' - I guess they never watched 'The Life Of Brian' and the 'What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us' scene.

Besides, Britain did nothing that any of the other colonial powers weren't also doing to the native populations - we also offered them political stability, which they didn't have before or after the colonial era.


sounds like a rose-tinted romantic notion to bring back crucifixion to me.....

FYI I adore The Life Of Brian, a film about how easy it is to pull the wool over the eyes of fools, who are quick to follow idiots based on nothing whatsoever except empty promises (be it a holy shoe or a holy gourd) while the overlords still stay in power while they squabble. The overlords are rich British (and foreign-owning squillionaires) who carry on regardless while the Leaver/Gourd-worshippers squabble over how to best follow the Brexit Gods, Hard Gourd or soft shoe. tongue.gif

The British Empire offered much: slavery, war, wiping out of indigenous populations, spread of intolerance, decimation of wildlife, homophobia, women knowing their place, ah those were the good ol' days if you were rich. saying "well we weren't the only ones doing it" doesnt make it right: "well everyone else was kicking the baby in the head so that's not my fault" won't wash in court....

These, as I say often, are facts.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 18 2017, 12:29 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 18 2017, 12:40 PM) *
Osbourne was making predictions based on not being in the EU (we were expected to have begun the day after, not 12 months later). The current mailaise started the day after the referendum. This is an inconvenient fact to those going LaLALaLanotylisteningIknowIwaswrongButICan'tAdmititLalalalal...


You're the one in denial, not me. The UK is leaving the EU, and it's going to be a nice, clean Brexit, no halfway in halfway out "soft" Brexit.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 18 2017, 03:34 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 18 2017, 01:29 PM) *
You're the one in denial, not me. The UK is leaving the EU, and it's going to be a nice, clean Brexit, no halfway in halfway out "soft" Brexit.

Not in denial ta. There was no referendum on hard or soft and all the lying twats now having the responsibility claimed it would be cuddly and soft. Feel free to review all the tv interviews of the time. None of them claimed it would be hard or difficult I'm any way.

As for what type we get come back in 12 months and we will see...

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 18 2017, 07:14 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 18 2017, 04:34 PM) *
Not in denial ta. There was no referendum on hard or soft and all the lying twats now having the responsibility claimed it would be cuddly and soft. Feel free to review all the tv interviews of the time. None of them claimed it would be hard or difficult I'm any way.

As for what type we get come back in 12 months and we will see...


Leaving the single market is considered "Hard Brexit", and yet Remainers will repeatedly say the British people didn't know what they were voting for, but what's this, the former Prime Minister and former Chancellor informing the British people before the referendum that to vote leave is to vote to leave the single market. I guess the British public really did know what they were voting for ohmy.gif biggrin.gif


Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 18 2017, 08:16 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 18 2017, 06:27 AM) *
All of the above have happened before, without any connection to Brexit.
The above just proves that being in the EU is no protection. wink.gif

The original Remainer claim was that everything would go to hell the instant we voted out, but since that hasn't happened, they've since engaged in a constant goalpost-moving exercise...

The reason the pound has merely fallen sharply rather than falling off a cliff is that the Bank of England spent billions on making sure that didn't happen.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 18 2017, 08:17 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 18 2017, 06:37 AM) *
At least the more pragmatic ones have now accepted the inevitability of Leaving - I suspect the others have fallen for the PC brainwashing that everything Britain ever did as an independent entity was 'evil' - I guess they never watched 'The Life Of Brian' and the 'What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us' scene.

Besides, Britain did nothing that any of the other colonial powers weren't also doing to the native populations - we also offered them political stability, which they didn't have before or after the colonial era.

But Your Honour, I wasn't the only one going around murdering people.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 18 2017, 08:22 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 18 2017, 08:14 PM) *
Leaving the single market is considered "Hard Brexit", and yet Remainers will repeatedly say the British people didn't know what they were voting for, but what's this, the former Prime Minister and former Chancellor informing the British people before the referendum that to vote leave is to vote to leave the single market. I guess the British public really did know what they were voting for ohmy.gif biggrin.gif



I don't really see how that is a valid argument. While I have accepted the fact we are leaving, I imagine if you did a survey of every single person who voted Leave, a large majority would not even know what the single market is.

Can't wait until everyone starts kicking off that they can't walk through to Benidorm anymore. That's when the real fun will begin.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Jul 18 2017, 08:25 PM

52 v 48.

I don't think that tiny percentage on one day is enough to pull us all out based on all this uncertainty, along with the fact that 2/4s of the nations AND Gibraltar all voted to stay in. Ia this a UNION or what England says, goes?

Posted by: 360Jupiter Jul 19 2017, 11:23 AM

Quite honestly it makes a mockery of 'The United Kingdom'. The vote was called by an English person and spearheaded by two of the most English English people in existence (BoJo and Farage). Now the whole country is being led by another incredibly English English person (Mrs May).

Where is my United Kingdom? That's how it feels nowadays. Like the rest of us will just be shafted and screw us for thinking we had a right to an opinion, a vote, or any influence in the first place.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 19 2017, 01:40 PM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 18 2017, 08:14 PM) *
Leaving the single market is considered "Hard Brexit", and yet Remainers will repeatedly say the British people didn't know what they were voting for, but what's this, the former Prime Minister and former Chancellor informing the British people before the referendum that to vote leave is to vote to leave the single market. I guess the British public really did know what they were voting for ohmy.gif biggrin.gif



you can't have it both ways, make up your mind - either the Remainers were telling the truth (clue: they were) about leaving the single market and it wasn't Project fear after all, or else they were lying about it and The Brexiteers were right that it's as easy as piss to stay in the single market and have all of our cake and eat it too. I know plenty of people who believed all the Brexiteer lies, so you can't make assumptions that evryone who voted Leave was in on the mass-delusion just nodding knowing winks at each other....

Otherwise, if nobody cared about Brexit lies, why did they make them? Why not just agree with The Remainers and say people don't care about that, a price worth paying (you know, the sort of arguments that frothing Brexiteers make NOW after the event, but not before)...?

Why not? Because they would have lost the referendum that's why. Pure logic.


Posted by: vidcapper Jul 19 2017, 03:35 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 18 2017, 01:00 PM) *
The British Empire offered much: slavery, war, wiping out of indigenous populations, spread of intolerance, decimation of wildlife, homophobia, women knowing their place, ah those were the good ol' days if you were rich. saying "well we weren't the only ones doing it" doesnt make it right: "well everyone else was kicking the baby in the head so that's not my fault" won't wash in court....

These, as I say often, are facts.


My point is - there's no reason to think we made the colonies *worse* off than before we took them over, and how many have proved to be virtually ungovernable since the gained their independence?


QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 18 2017, 09:16 PM) *
The reason the pound has merely fallen sharply rather than falling off a cliff is that the Bank of England spent billions on making sure that didn't happen.


Which they would have done had the pound fallen for *any* reason - that's their job.


QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Jul 18 2017, 09:25 PM) *
52 v 48.

I don't think that tiny percentage on one day is enough to pull us all out based on all this uncertainty, along with the fact that 2/4s of the nations AND Gibraltar all voted to stay in. Ia this a UNION or what England says, goes?


The 2 out of 4 idea doesn't work unless you have an electoral college - and that's far from ideal too, just look at the US Presidential election...

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 19 2017, 06:24 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 19 2017, 04:35 PM) *
Which they would have done had the pound fallen for *any* reason - that's their job.

It is also the job of government to minimise the chances of such action being necessary.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 19 2017, 07:15 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 19 2017, 04:35 PM) *
My point is - there's no reason to think we made the colonies *worse* off than before we took them over, and how many have proved to be virtually ungovernable since the gained their independence?


My point is...ask the Native Americans and aboriginal Australians and New Zealand Maoris if they feel happy about genocide and second citizen status. Ask those Africans cast into slavery if they feel happier about it - or their descendants. The British have a habit of sticking their nose into a situation and making it worse (hello Iraq) and the after-effects get felt for generations. If the British hadnt come over all high and mighty and pompous and treated the actual populations of the world as equals rather than lackies they can rob blind, then they might be held in higher regard than they are today - and that is much higher than they deserve, rather surprisingly (mostly, it must be said, in countries colonised successfully by the British).

So, bit hypocritical to moan about immigrants when the British Empire was the ultimate batch of immigrants - except we didn't adapt to the local culture, we took it over.

Saying genocide is fine because British descendants are happy with history and democracy (which did turn out to be beneficial in many ways in the long run, or none of us would be here to comment on it) is to make excuses. Saying some countries are worse off than they were under British rule (prove that with facts) does not make it a good thing that they were minions or slaves. That just shows how bad politicians are who crave power, not that British power-mad politicians were/are any better...

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Jul 19 2017, 08:34 PM

No there are NOT people here arguing FOR British colonial rule!!
I have only ever seen that one time from posh twats from public schools. Disgrace.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Jul 19 2017, 08:38 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 19 2017, 03:35 PM) *
My point is - there's no reason to think we made the colonies *worse* off than before we took them over, and how many have proved to be virtually ungovernable since the gained their independence?
Which they would have done had the pound fallen for *any* reason - that's their job.
The 2 out of 4 idea doesn't work unless you have an electoral college - and that's far from ideal too, just look at the US Presidential election...


It HAS to work, or there is no point in being a Union, 360Jupiter is right.

Otherwise, England, with the FAR greater population, chooses everything and the other nations get dragged along against their will. This is no union. It is colonialism.

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 21 2017, 05:30 PM

Some good news is that a transitional deal looks more and more likely. Should mean disruption from leaving the EU will be less and give time for businesses/public services/border control etc to adjust and implement whatever post-brexit deal/infrastructure is done and needed.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 21 2017, 08:54 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jul 21 2017, 06:30 PM) *
Some good news is that a transitional deal looks more and more likely. Should mean disruption from leaving the EU will be less and give time for businesses/public services/border control etc to adjust and implement whatever post-brexit deal/infrastructure is done and needed.


Yes, at last reality bites and another Brexit lie is confirmed. Ruining the country's businesses was never going to be a good way to get yourself elected ever again - especially not when they pay for your own political party...

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 21 2017, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 21 2017, 09:54 PM) *
Yes, at last reality bites and another Brexit lie is confirmed. Ruining the country's businesses was never going to be a good way to get yourself elected ever again - especially not when they pay for your own political party...


We're seeing both the UK & EU's posturing coming to an end as things get serious and a pragmatic approach is needed. Still a long way to go in terms of talks, but things don't look as grim as they did not too long ago.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 22 2017, 08:18 AM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jul 21 2017, 10:14 PM) *
We're seeing both the UK & EU's posturing coming to an end as things get serious and a pragmatic approach is needed. Still a long way to go in terms of talks, but things don't look as grim as they did not too long ago.


The EU has never postured, they have a unified position amongst 27 nations (which is pretty much impressive, given recent historical problems like Greece) and have always stated openly what the rules are. The Brexit mob are the ones who have been living in fantasy land, and any agreement is down to them accepting reality not the EU changing it's rules or modifying - any trade agreement is welcome as long as rules are stuck to, eg Norway, switzerland, and recently Japan.

Any trade deals we get will never be as generous as those from within the EU, except with those countries with dodgy politics like Saudi Arabia. That is our new future, dealing with undemocratic countries and helping them along as long we turn a blind eye to human rights outrages. Still, at least we wont be getting involved in any more wars, can't afford to piss off customers for our weapons of death - the UK will be even more like a seedy backstreet mobster selling weapons to anyone for whatever reason...

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 22 2017, 08:52 AM

The EU has remained steadfast in its position. This is just Tory doners finally kicked their bought and paid for MPs hard enough for them to start understanding that a hard Brexit will be catastrophic for businesses and thus catastrophic for the Tories 2022 election fund.

They're probably also starting to realise that a transition period allows them to enter the next election with everything basically status quo in terms of trading and financial services which gives them a better chance at another term of government

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 22 2017, 04:06 PM

To say the EU haven't been posturing is a bit of a blinded view. Of course they haven't been doing it to the extent of the UK (well the Tory party) and have generally stuck to their guns. However things such as the "divorce" bill being stated at ludicrously high amounts without a cost-checked list being published and the way in which they have come across as wanting to "punish the UK for leaving" are examples of that.

Of course I understand the EU doesn't want to make leaving look good, but they've come to realise that a pragmatic approach is needed (as have our politicians, finally). Not to say we'll "have our cake and eat it", but the tone from both sides has been less harsh now that talks have began. I'm hopeful that common sense will rule and the UK will have a transitional deal which'll prevent the cliff edge and allow both sides time to adjust.

In terms of a transitional deal giving them a better chance at being elected for the next government - I'm not entirely sure it will. In fact it could backfire on them as a lot of people who voted leave may not have liked the Tory approach and how long it's taken to leave the EU - in spite of it being an obvious way to leave without the cliff edge. The next few years will certainly be interesting to say the least.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 22 2017, 04:08 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Jul 22 2017, 05:06 PM) *
To say the EU haven't been posturing is a bit of a blinded view. Of course they haven't been doing it to the extent of the UK (well the Tory party) and have generally stuck to their guns. However things such as the "divorce" bill being stated at ludicrously high amounts without a cost-checked list being published and the way in which they have come across as wanting to "punish the UK for leaving" are examples of that.

Of course I understand the EU doesn't want to make leaving look good, but they've come to realise that a pragmatic approach is needed (as have our politicians, finally). Not to say we'll "have our cake and eat it", but the tone from both sides has been less harsh now that talks have began. I'm hopeful that common sense will rule and the UK will have a transitional deal which'll prevent the cliff edge and allow both sides time to adjust.

In terms of a transitional deal giving them a better chance at being elected for the next government - I'm not entirely sure it will. In fact it could backfire on them as a lot of people who voted leave may not have liked the Tory approach and how long it's taken to leave the EU - in spite of it being an obvious way to leave without the cliff edge. The next few years will certainly be interesting to say the least.

They've only come across as "wanting to punish the UK" in the eyes of the Tory press. All they are doing is looking after the interests of the member states which is, after all, what the EU is for.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 22 2017, 06:08 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 22 2017, 05:08 PM) *
They've only come across as "wanting to punish the UK" in the eyes of the Tory press. All they are doing is looking after the interests of the member states which is, after all, what the EU is for.

Yes and my understanding of the figures quoted for the divorce bill would that it would based on figures actually on paper for existing and future commitments and was always going to need to be written in black and white. The figure of 100 million was speculation from a couple of countries pounced on with glee by the mail Sun express telegraph as if it were factual proof of a determination to punish us.

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 23 2017, 06:00 AM

The EU's problem is that it's never been very good at documenting its own finances, so they'll find it hard to back up any figure they demand in the 'divorce' settlement.

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 23 2017, 08:41 AM

That's so much of a lie it's hard to know where to begin. I used to work for a University in Research Finance, the EU grants were audited regularly (unlike research funding from the UK Gov which was never audited) and they were very well controlled by the EU. We had a dedicated team for EU grants as they had a lot of administrative requirements but that meant money was carefully accounted for and always went to the purpose it was granted for. Even switching €100 from your travel budget to buy some more consumables would require justification and pre-approval from the contact at the EU.

It's not just University funds they track closely. The EU has fined member states for misappropriation of EU funds or for poor record keeping.

The EU is more clued up on its financial affairs than the U.K. Government is about its own budget.

You can brainlessly parrot lies from the anti-EU media all you want, but unlike you I've worked with EU funding and experienced first hand how they account for and manage finances.

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 23 2017, 06:54 PM

..and happily Nigel Farage has to pay back 80k to the EU for misappropriating it for the Referendum. UK gov investigations into mis-use of funds for elections and referendums always seems to fizzle out....

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 25 2017, 09:12 PM

In an article in the Times a Tory minister was quoted as saying

QUOTE
We are stuck in a ‘damned if we do, damned if we don’t’ bind. If we try to cancel exit we destroy ourselves; if we go ahead with it we destroy the country.

People voted for a fantasy.


Obviously the minister is unnamed but they speak the truth.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 25 2017, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 25 2017, 10:12 PM) *
In an article in the Times a Tory minister was quoted as saying
Obviously the minister is unnamed but they speak the truth.


So now an unnamed Tory minister is being quoted. Wow the desperation from Remoaners is so deep I can almost smell it.

Meanwhile whilst the anti-British, anti-democratic Remoaners continue with their disingenuous scaremongering, more good news came out, foreign investment in the UK is now at an all-time high and today companies such as Easyjet, BMW, and Amazon has announced an expansion in the UK and more jobs being created here.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Jul 25 2017, 11:26 PM

As the economy drops to its worst levels since 2008 and the pound now offers 78 Euro cents hahaha.

Undemocratic? 2/4s of the union plus Gibraltar voted to atay in. 48% on one day on an ADVISORY vote and less than 65%. It is not enough to be demoxratic. It is undemoceatic and anti Union and pro Little England t drag us out. Don't be so ignorant, Little Englander.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 26 2017, 12:18 AM

QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Jul 26 2017, 12:26 AM) *
As the economy drops to its worst levels since 2008 and the pound now offers 78 Euro cents hahaha.

Undemocratic? 2/4s of the union plus Gibraltar voted to atay in. 48% on one day on an ADVISORY vote and less than 65%. It is not enough to be demoxratic. It is undemoceatic and anti Union and pro Little England t drag us out. Don't be so ignorant, Little Englander.


The UK's GDP growth rate (percentage terms) in 2016 was 1.8%, this year the IMF and the Treasury are predicting it to be 1.7%. Whoopdeedoo, it's dropped by 0.1% and btw in 2012 when the UK was busy hosting the Olympic Games, our GDP growth was 1.3%, so you can forget that "economy drops to its worst levels" nonsense.

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 26 2017, 07:33 AM

Ah yes, the Leavers favourite passion. Selective reading! Shall we have a bit more of an in-depth look at said investment shall we?


BMW's "investment" is the automotive equivalent of the spare change down the back of the sofa. BMW themselves have said the investment would be small and the only investment would be to make the necessary adaptations to the production line to be able to add in an Electric powertrain that will be fully manufactured in Germany.


BMW have started Mini production in The Netherlands to reduce Brexit impact on their business


Easyjet are a British firm so any investment in the UK is not FDI because they're not foreign.... (they're also investing in Austria to set up there and their EU operations will be run on an Austrian Air Operators Certificate so they still have access to the Open-Skies agreement because the UK Gov/Brexiteers has been suuuuper silent on that.)


Amazon's continued expansion is not a surprise with the launch of Prime Now and Prime 2 Hour delivery. As this continues to grow, along with their main UK business this requires more UK Warehouses where they use agency workers who are treated abysmally. I would know, I have worked for them. The UK investment is for the internal UK market and does nothing for boosting trade. Yay for minimum wage agency jobs where you get treated like total shite!!! (Most of them will be done by East-Europeans too because unemployed Brits aren't interested or fail the drug test you have to under take to work with the agencies)

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 26 2017, 08:34 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 26 2017, 12:15 AM) *
So now an unnamed Tory minister is being quoted. Wow the desperation from Remoaners is so deep I can almost smell it.

Meanwhile whilst the anti-British, anti-democratic Remoaners continue with their disingenuous scaremongering, more good news came out, foreign investment in the UK is now at an all-time high and today companies such as Easyjet, BMW, and Amazon has announced an expansion in the UK and more jobs being created here.


Remoaner = anti-British, anti-democratic. This is a lie. We are just not stupid fools and know what is coming. Using terms like Remoaner is an attempt to bully and ridicule. There is precious little political support for speaking the truth, as bullying and US-style Trumpish falsehoods take over the political system.

It's called DEMOCRACY. If you can't handle alternative (and factually supported) viewpoints then you are a supporter of fascism of one xtreme or another.

Let's turn it around - Bexiter-froth-mouthers live in a fantasy world where they think they can bully everyone to their small-minded, nationalistic, utterly unsupported by facts and evidence POV(we are still in the EU, non-EU immigrants still merrily come over here no reductions at all, bar students going somewhere cheaper), and want to curtail democracy by bullying and helping rich people get total control over the country. Anti-British! Anti-democracy!

See - easy to say offensive stuff to belittle anyone you disagree with. If you can't make make sensible comments, don't bother with any.

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 26 2017, 08:43 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Jul 26 2017, 09:34 AM) *
Remoaner = anti-British, anti-democratic. This is a lie. We are just not stupid fools and know what is coming. Using terms like Remoaner is an attempt to bully and ridicule. There is precious little political support for speaking the truth, as bullying and US-style Trumpish falsehoods take over the political system.

It's called DEMOCRACY.


I remember that - from Jun 23rd 2016...

Posted by: vidcapper Jul 26 2017, 08:55 AM

QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Jul 26 2017, 01:18 AM) *
The UK's GDP growth rate (percentage terms) in 2016 was 1.8%, this year the IMF and the Treasury are predicting it to be 1.7%. Whoopdeedoo, it's dropped by 0.1% and btw in 2012 when the UK was busy hosting the Olympic Games, our GDP growth was 1.3%, so you can forget that "economy drops to its worst levels" nonsense.


One thing that the Remainer doomsayers pointedly ignore, is that the positive aspects of Brexit can't kick in until we've actually left...

e.g. being relieved of our large net contribution
Being able to strike trade deals with whoever we want
Taking back control of our borders

to name three.

Posted by: PeaceMob Jul 26 2017, 09:38 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jul 26 2017, 09:55 AM) *
One thing that the Remainer doomsayers pointedly ignore, is that the positive aspects of Brexit can't kick in until we've actually left...

e.g. being relieved of our large net contribution
Being able to strike trade deals with whoever we want
Taking back control of our borders

to name three.


True. But also businesses have accepted Brexit is going to happen and are already planning ahead, hence the record levels of investment, so already the UK is feeling the positive effects of Brexit.

All the Remoaner lot have now is disingenuous scaremongering, it's not going to work though.

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 26 2017, 09:58 AM

For the last time




WE. HAVE. AND. HAVE. ALWAYS. HAD. FULL. CONTROL. OF. OUR. BORDERS.


Repeating the lie doesn't make it any less of a lie.

We are not in the Schengen area. To enter the CTA you must produce a passport. Successive failures by government to correctly implement EU law on Free Movement isn't an EU problem. It's a UK problem. When will you accept this simple and basic fact and stop mindlessly parroting Dacre & Farages bullshit?

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 26 2017, 10:10 AM

Our NET contribution to the EU for the 2015-16 FY was £8.6bn pounds.

In 2015-16 the U.K. Government spent £762.3bn. So 1.3% of our total spend was on the EU membership

We exported £240bn of goods to the EU in that year. At an average tarrif of 10% our business saved £24bn in costs before we consider the impact on business of having to complete customs declarations.

The average cost of a declaration is £30 per declaration. The tiny EU member fee saves our economy as a whole a truly substantial amount.


I work for a Big4 firm in Indirect Tax and have actually built an model measuring the impact on businesses. So come at me Brexiteers because unlike y'all I have actual facts on my side


Posted by: vidcapper Jul 26 2017, 10:28 AM

You are presenting only the economic arguments - what about the political, cultural & social ones?

Posted by: Bairlas Jul 26 2017, 11:00 AM

I was responding to your economic argument. That tends to be how a back and forwards discussion happens.

Political: the EU is not transparent about how it operates but once you take the time to understand how all the various bits work together you find that it is democratic. The EU commission that people have issue with for being "unelected" is appointed by governments. The UK member of this body is appointed by the U.K. Gov and UK gov only in the same way that they appoint their cabinet. Are we going to start complaining of a democratic deficit when members of the lords are appointed to cabinet??? Major changes to EU rules are done either by consensus or qualified majority and even then you can seek an opt out if you really don't agree. For example VAT is an EU wide tax and the UK VAT law is based on the HMRC/UK Gov interpretation of the EU VAT Directives - so EU law isn't directly pushed into UK law here. To change the directive all countries must agree to the change. This is why despite the objective of the EU when VAT was first established in the 70's to have a single rate paid across the whole continent (amaze for consumers and super clear for businesses) has never happened. It's also why the 0% rate of VAT is still permitted despite being lower than the lowest rate allowed by EU law. We have to agree to stop using it before the EU can ban it, and we don't agree so it stays!

The UK enjoys many opt outs. The UK is Queen of the opt outs!


Social/Cultural: I'm not sure what the pro-Brexit arguments are here. But the Erasmus programme is amazing for EU students of all countries allowing them to absorb culture and knowledge from across the continent. Free movement is amazing for us socially and culturally. The ability to travel visa/fuss free across Europe is amazing. If you're referring to British culture then you're talking about a country where the best selling dish is Chicken Tikka Masala, an Indian dish we invented. We're already an amazing melting pot of cultures from the Empire days. Adding a few more to the mix does us no harm

Posted by: popchartfreak Jul 27 2017, 12:22 PM

I think it's telling that informed people like Silas can offer helpful advice and opinion on the current situation and future likely situation, and others can only offer the already-failed and ridiculed "Remoaner doom-merchant" Brexit party-line with no actual evidence to support facts (no matter how often asked for) - clearly following the same crew of incestuous tweeters or papers parroting the same old drivel and cliched phrases over and over.


Posted by: Bairlas Aug 1 2017, 06:19 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=237436&subid=20615353&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Finally someone fully explains in the media what I've been saying all along. We have full control that we do not fully apply EU rules is not the fault of the EU but the failure of successive governments of both colours.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 1 2017, 06:30 AM

I can't believe Mad May is still forcin this through

Posted by: Suedehead2 Aug 1 2017, 08:06 AM

QUOTE(Bairlas @ Aug 1 2017, 07:19 AM) *
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=237436&subid=20615353&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Finally someone fully explains in the media what I've been saying all along. We have full control that we do not fully apply EU rules is not the fault of the EU but the failure of successive governments of both colours.

Yet Leave supporters continue to spout this nonsense on radio and television without being challenged. It happened again with Jack Mogg this morning.

Posted by: 360Jupiter Aug 1 2017, 05:35 PM

I find the 'strike deals with whoever we want' thing a little disingenuous.

We already have deals with the US and EU member countries as well as others, I'm sure.

The fact is, how many first world countries are not already in the EU? America. Australia. Canada. Russia. Japan. Is that it? Great, wonderful to cut off access to 20 plus for greater access to an extra five, now negotiating not as part of a population comparable to that of the US, but as a tiny island with a population equivalent to one US state, with zero transport links by road and our only airspace access being via the remaining EU countries unless by long transatlantic flight.

I could understand this more if we were geographically located more like Germany, or France, or even the Nordic countries. But we're not, the UK is completely isolated by location.

I stick by my earlier points. This is a colonialistic English fantasy that has caught the public's imagination, and has left those of us who aren't in fact English feeling very precarious about our place living here.

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 2 2017, 07:00 AM

Good article. May was useless in her previous job and is useless in her current one. Border control in the uk is understaffed and under resoourced. I can land at local airports with zero customs checks bar getting the passport scanned. Going to spain you have to fill in details for entering the country online ehich then check you out on leaving. Getting into spain itself is piss easy, flash your passport. Thats it.

Getting out is harder if you have failed to fill it in, oops as i found out last year!

Uk govs love to have the eu to blame. Guaranteed they will still try to do the same in decades to come but it wont wash once we have left and immigration is still high, but the economy stagnates and declines.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Aug 2 2017, 02:32 PM

Now the Leavers are getting their knockers in a twist again. Why? Because stricter border controls have been introduced meaning, to the surprise of nobody with half an active brain cell, that it takes longer to go through security at airports. Naturally the Mail are insisting that Britons have been singled out. Er, no. The restrictions apply when travelling in and out of the Schengen area. We are not in the Schengen area - largely because no government dared upset the Daily Mail - ergo, the restrictions apply when entering and leaving the UK.

Posted by: Bairlas Aug 2 2017, 05:22 PM

This is also the same group of people (I refuse to call it a newspaper) who insisted that you couldn't control borders as an EU member state and are up in arms at EU member states... controlling their borders. Honestly I don't know if I should laugh or cry in despair these days.


Leave voting farmers are furious because they've finally realised that CAP is going to stop and won't be replaced. (no shit Sherlock, another check for the 'scaremongering' is actually coming true column)



I've got a 65 minute connection in München later this month, let's hope German efficiency reigns supreme at the border!

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 4 2017, 09:35 AM

4th month of falling car sales.


SMMT laying the blame firmly at brexits door

Posted by: Brett-Butler Aug 4 2017, 12:16 PM

And the problem is? If less cars are being sold, then there will be less noxious CO2 emissions, therefore ensuring that the air is a lot less full of pollutants, which given the horrific standard of air, especially in the big cities like London, is a real godsend. Three cheers for Brexit!

Gosh, if I ever had a consciencectomy, I'd make a rather brilliant spin doctor.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 4 2017, 12:41 PM

New car sales tend to be an indicator of consumer confidence at making big long term purchases. The fact that we're into 4 consecutive months show this wasn't just a front loading of sales before the VED changes and is a bit of a warning sign for the health of the economy. Thanks to lead times this is showing us that with inflation spiking at the start of the year and wages falling further in real terms our economy is in big trouble. Especially when taken with the news of a cool off in the housing market.

If people aren't feeling confident about making a long term or big purchase like a car or a house it's only a matter of time before it starts filtering down through the economy.

The other bad news from SMMT is that the number of cars we are making is falling. Showing that the Brexiteers proclamation that a weak pound is good for exports is a pile of w***. Our Automotive Manufacturing sector is heavily dependent on exports. The majority of the output from every factory in the U.K. Is sold abroad. So the slow down of this puts jobs at risk with the manufacturers themselves and through the supply chain. It also weakens our overall export picture, increasing our trade deficit.

All of which are grim signs for the health of the economy


Tl;dr - car sales are important indicator of consumers long term confidence in the economy and it's looking grim. We also making remarkably less vehicles. Given our Automotive Manufacturing sector is set up on an export model this puts jobs at risk and hurts our trade deficit












(The product mix in the U.K. Has swung massively back to Petrol and there is record levels of Hybrid and Electric vehicles being sold. Also keeping in mind that newer vehicles have lower CO2 Emissions and better fuel economy new car sales are a good thing as they push older more polluting vehicles out of the chain and into a scrapyard - thus having a smaller impact on the environment than the vehicles that they replace.)

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 4 2017, 01:19 PM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 4 2017, 10:35 AM) *
4th month of falling car sales.
SMMT laying the blame firmly at brexits door


How long before Remoaners start blaming bad weather on Brexit... teresa.gif

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 4 2017, 01:29 PM

Never. The things that are being blamed on Brexit are actually Brexit's fault like we told you ...

You were fooled by billionaires and their press.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Aug 4 2017, 01:42 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 4 2017, 02:19 PM) *
How long before Remoaners start blaming bad weather on Brexit... teresa.gif

I think the Express have already blamed the EU for that.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 4 2017, 02:00 PM

Who had "Wheeling out 'remoaners' when a Brexiteer is confronted with facts that show the alleged project fear is project fact and the economy is suffering as a result of the referendum decision" on their bingo card??

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 4 2017, 02:07 PM

It will be hard for Little Englanders to hide the fact they were fooled by cleverer men and that they voted for Brexit this time thanks to social media, article sharing, arguments, etc. So, like Vidcapper, they will double-down and blame everything on us, decry us undemocratically as 'remoaners' - a tag which is DANGEROUSLY undemocratic and stifling of democratic debate - and blame the RU, like they did recently in that UNBELIEVABLE DailyMail article.

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 4 2017, 05:11 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 4 2017, 02:19 PM) *
How long before Remoaners start blaming bad weather on Brexit... teresa.gif

Hmmm, either you were duped or you knew the leave campaign lied and went along with it anyway...

Which was it?

Still waiting for those promised instant new trade deals, the eu falling over itself to sell us theircars and a fab new prosperous world where british people work all the shitty jobs that banned immigrants used to do. Including making everyone on benefits forced to work in lidls or wait on tables till midnight...

Fab times ahead, eh?

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 5 2017, 02:50 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 4 2017, 06:11 PM) *
Hmmm, either you were duped or you knew the leave campaign lied and went along with it anyway...

Which was it?

Still waiting for those promised instant new trade deals, the eu falling over itself to sell us theircars and a fab new prosperous world where british people work all the shitty jobs that banned immigrants used to do. Including making everyone on benefits forced to work in lidls or wait on tables till midnight...

Fab times ahead, eh?


It's hypocritical to blame everything negative on Brexit, while ignoring the fact that the benefits of it cannot manifest themselves until after we have left.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 5 2017, 03:07 PM

What benefits?? laugh.gif

You are living in a jingoistic fantasy.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 5 2017, 04:34 PM

QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Aug 5 2017, 04:07 PM) *
What benefits?? laugh.gif


Did you read my post *at all*??

By definition, the potential benefits of Brexit cannot occur until *after* we have left the EU.

It is absurd to declare there will be no benefits before we've even had a chance to find out! wacko.gif

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 5 2017, 04:35 PM

But there are no benefits!

There really aren't. Sorry, not sorry.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 5 2017, 06:08 PM

Please do enlighten us on the benefits we will get by leaving the European Union and how they compensate for that which we lose?

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 5 2017, 07:35 PM

Well, we get to control our borders! I mean, we already do, but not to the level the EU do - that is TOO much, but before it wasn't enough! And how DARE they subject UK citizens to the same checks? ohmy.gif

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 6 2017, 08:52 AM

QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Aug 5 2017, 05:35 PM) *
But there are no benefits!

There really aren't. Sorry, not sorry.


That's your opinion, not a fact.

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 5 2017, 07:08 PM) *
Please do enlighten us on the benefits we will get by leaving the European Union and how they compensate for that which we lose?


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-what-next-reasons-to-be-positive-eu-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-a7104016.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/23/complaining-brexit-economic-benefits-government-cost-of-living-multinationals

Posted by: Envoirment Aug 6 2017, 05:03 PM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 4 2017, 10:35 AM) *
4th month of falling car sales.
SMMT laying the blame firmly at brexits door


Isn't it due to tax changes implemented from April 1st? They made buying new cars even more expensive. Some rates of tax went up quite a lot.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 6 2017, 06:17 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Aug 6 2017, 06:03 PM) *
Isn't it due to tax changes implemented from April 1st? They made buying new cars even more expensive. Some rates of tax went up quite a lot.

That was my first reaction but the SMMT say no. So there was a spike in sales at the start of the year as people pushed to have cars registered under the old tax bands but SMMT say the average lead time for vehicles is 6 months so we're yet to really see that negative impact fully filter through.

The UK VED bands being f***ed up by Osbourne doesn't impact exports which are also slowing down

Posted by: Doctor Blind Aug 6 2017, 08:42 PM

The car market is joining the housing market as being gamed by dodgy lending:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GMrrhinIRB4J:www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/14/drivers-face-car-loan-crackdown-avoid-new-financial-crisis/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

QUOTE
The amount of money being borrowed to buy new cars has trebled over the past eight years to more than £30bn and there are growing concerns over the lack of financial checks made on potential borrowers.

Motorists can be offered loans worth more than their own salaries in a growing scandal which has echoes of the sub-prime mortgage boom which helped spark the global financial crisis.


I'm sure it's all under control though.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 6 2017, 10:10 PM

Yeah I'm on my third PCP deal laugh.gif

The difference between this market and mortgages is that it's not vulnerable to interest rate rises so it's standard bad debtors they have to be worried about. Although it certainly needs more regulation. I've gone through credit checks each time but the main issue imo is that unlike mortgages there's no consideration given to affordability. You can say the same about payday loans, credit cards and loans tbh.

These deals are typically underwritten by the car manufacturers. Any Renault-Nissan deal worldwide goes through RCI Banque which is a bank fully owned by Renault SA. That's the common practice. So if it goes bust it hurts the car companies, not the wider financial services sector. (My current deal is with BMWs finance company. I've had ones with Volkswagen Finance and Banque PSA when I had a Citroën - this racket is 100% the automotive industry's internal mess)

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 7 2017, 10:51 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 6 2017, 09:52 AM) *
That's your opinion, not a fact.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-what-next-reasons-to-be-positive-eu-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-a7104016.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/23/complaining-brexit-economic-benefits-government-cost-of-living-multinationals

Yeah not really facts just maybe benefits if we create industry - How? - and as it says making wages less exploiting workers etc etc. There are no actual real proposals for any gov support for the former and the latter would not get voted for. How about refusing yo pay benefits and forcing people to work for peanuts sweeping streets instead that would be popular...


Posted by: vidcapper Aug 7 2017, 03:10 PM

My underlying analogy for Brexit is - where would America be now if they'd been too timid to fight for *their* independence...

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 7 2017, 03:20 PM

You've just compared a blueberry to Pluto.


Brexit and the 13 colonies gaining independence are not even remotely comparable things

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 7 2017, 04:18 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 7 2017, 04:10 PM) *
My underlying analogy for Brexit is - where would America be now if they'd been too timid to fight for *their* independence...

Given the current administration, maybe not the best time to ask that question.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 8 2017, 05:19 AM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 7 2017, 04:20 PM) *
You've just compared a blueberry to Pluto.
Brexit and the 13 colonies gaining independence are not even remotely comparable things


I beg to differ - both involved a centralized power undermining autonomy, and both were overseas powers over whom influence was very limited.

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 7 2017, 05:18 PM) *
Given the current administration, maybe not the best time to ask that question.


I was thinking economically, rather than politiclally. wink.gif

On a side issue, given the choice between Clinton & Trump, I would have had to have chosen the latter, as the slightly lesser of two evils,

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 8 2017, 09:18 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 8 2017, 06:19 AM) *
On a side issue, given the choice between Clinton & Trump, I would have had to have chosen the latter, as the slightly lesser of two evils,

Jesus, what exactly do you imagine Clinton would have done with her first 6 months? Nuked the moon?

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 8 2017, 10:12 AM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 8 2017, 10:18 AM) *
Jesus, what exactly do you imagine Clinton would have done with her first 6 months? Nuked the moon?


Has Trump done so? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 8 2017, 11:45 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 8 2017, 06:19 AM) *
I beg to differ - both involved a centralized power undermining autonomy, and both were overseas powers over whom influence was very limited.
I was thinking economically, rather than politiclally. wink.gif

On a side issue, given the choice between Clinton & Trump, I would have had to have chosen the latter, as the slightly lesser of two evils,


The Eu is an institution largely defined and created by the UK, as was the Americas, an imperialist invasion of a foreign land (the native Americans were NOT reclaiming America for Americans, chucking out the immigrants - the UK WERE the immigrants). The colonies were under the powers of the UK, the EU (apart from some legislation which benefits all) is not "ruled" by a foreign power, it's a mutual democratic arrangement for trade and peace amongst democratic countries. That's what Churchill and Thatcher saw it as. The EU didn't make us go to war with Iraq or The falklands, that was purely a British decision, as was the electorate decision to reduce the power of batty May. Nothing alike whatsoever.

Trump is a nutjob who lies in every breath, can't string a sentence together and cares about no-one but himself and his own family. Pretty much says it all that he is prepared to put the whole planet at risk as long as he gets richer himself. Clinton isn't and wasn't in politics for her own welfare, her husband already is rich. Doing it for the less powerful. Magnanimous reasons, however one might view her ability to do that. I think she is very smart, and Trump very very very very very dumb.

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 8 2017, 11:46 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 8 2017, 11:12 AM) *
Has Trump done so? rolleyes.gif

avoiding the question yet again...

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 8 2017, 02:35 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 8 2017, 12:45 PM) *
Trump is a nutjob who lies in every breath, can't string a sentence together and cares about no-one but himself and his own family. Pretty much says it all that he is prepared to put the whole planet at risk as long as he gets richer himself. Clinton isn't and wasn't in politics for her own welfare, her husband already is rich. Doing it for the less powerful. Magnanimous reasons, however one might view her ability to do that. I think she is very smart, and Trump very very very very very dumb.


Then what does it say about here that she *still* couldn't win...


QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 8 2017, 12:46 PM) *
avoiding the question yet again...


I merely responded to a sarcastic comment, with one of my own.

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 8 2017, 02:55 PM

That she lives in an extremely sexist society?

Posted by: Brett-Butler Aug 8 2017, 03:07 PM

Goodness, we're still talking about Trump/Hilary more than half a year on? In a thread about the EU? If we could TRY to bring this discussion back on topic, that would be most excellent.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 9 2017, 06:11 AM

QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Aug 4 2017, 03:07 PM) *
It will be hard for Little Englanders to hide the fact they were fooled by cleverer men and that they voted for Brexit this time thanks to social media, article sharing, arguments, etc. So, like Vidcapper, they will double-down and blame everything on us, decry us undemocratically as 'remoaners' - a tag which is DANGEROUSLY undemocratic and stifling of democratic debate - and blame the RU, like they did recently in that UNBELIEVABLE DailyMail article.


I can assure you that I have been an opponent of the EU for a long time - long before social media even *existed* in fact!

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Aug 8 2017, 04:07 PM) *
Goodness, we're still talking about Trump/Hilary more than half a year on? In a thread about the EU? If we could TRY to bring this discussion back on topic, that would be most excellent.


It kinda drifted once I drew an analogy between Brexit, and the American Revolution.

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 9 2017, 09:45 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 9 2017, 07:11 AM) *
I can assure you that I have been an opponent of the EU for a long time - long before social media even *existed* in fact!


and ive been a supporter since we joined as it heralded peace in Europe after decades of war and misery and mass death, and the stark and poverty-stricken UK pre-EU has become relatively affluent as part of the EU. This is not a co-incidence. Nor is the fact that very right-wing Hitler-lovers hate the EU with a passion. Especially rich ones and racist ones.

And, no I'm not suggesting everyone who loathes the EU is the above. Most of them just haven't got a clue about politics and the real world and what lies ahead for a nation as unprepared for reality as this one. No plan one year-on, and with 12 months left to cram 5 years worth of trade talks and skilled vital industry relationships into.
Not. A. Chance.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 9 2017, 11:18 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 9 2017, 10:45 AM) *
and ive been a supporter since we joined as it heralded peace in Europe after decades of war and misery and mass death


Oh really, I wasn't aware that WW2 ended in 1973... rolleyes.gif



QUOTE
and the stark and poverty-stricken UK pre-EU has become relatively affluent as part of the EU. This is not a co-incidence.
Nor was the oil crisis that was happening in the early 70's...

QUOTE
Nor is the fact that very right-wing Hitler-lovers hate the EU with a passion. Especially rich ones and racist ones.


We know why *they* hate it, but they have never been more than 1-2% of the UK population, and the referendum was won by a larger margin than that.

QUOTE
And, no I'm not suggesting everyone who loathes the EU is the above. Most of them just haven't got a clue about politics and the real world and what lies ahead for a nation as unprepared for reality as this one. No plan one year-on, and with 12 months left to cram 5 years worth of trade talks and skilled vital industry relationships into.
Not. A. Chance.


But ask yourselves *why* we were unprepared.

Because the arrogant establishment had ignored growing euroscepticism for decades, and didn't believe that voters were strong enough to resist the constant pro-EU inculcation.

Their misreading of the public mood is why we were unprepared, and I don't believe that would have made *any* difference if that had been known in advance - politicians & civil servants are *paid* to sort out problems like this, it's about time they earned their overinflated salaries!

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 9 2017, 07:47 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 9 2017, 12:18 PM) *
Oh really, I wasn't aware that WW2 ended in 1973... rolleyes.gif
Nor was the oil crisis that was happening in the early 70's...
We know why *they* hate it, but they have never been more than 1-2% of the UK population, and the referendum was won by a larger margin than that.
But ask yourselves *why* we were unprepared.

Because the arrogant establishment had ignored growing euroscepticism for decades, and didn't believe that voters were strong enough to resist the constant pro-EU inculcation.

Their misreading of the public mood is why we were unprepared, and I don't believe that would have made *any* difference if that had been known in advance - politicians & civil servants are *paid* to sort out problems like this, it's about time they earned their overinflated salaries!


Oh where do I start...

WW2 may have ended in 1945 but UK misery didn't. Nor did wars or "conflicts" it was involved in. You might want to try Wikipedia for a handful of the many results - admittedly outside Europe, cos you know Churchill & co were trying to make a lasting peace there (successfully).

The oil crisis has nothing to do with this thread, it was cartels rationing. None of them European.

My Hitler-ref was more aimed at farage, who y'now, was a major persuader in the referendum and a decade before leading up to it..

The UK is unprepared as a nation. That applies specifically to the Leavers who lied. Lied totally. They said it would be easy and it isn't. Remainers are not obliged to make the case or do anything to make it a success, as they are not involved in the process. The responsibility lies totally with Leavers. If it fails it's their fault. If they haven't done their homework (which the EU itself has told them get down to for the last 13 months) no-opne else is to blame. They are.

You are over-simplifying the specialist knowledge required for all aspects of national life which we don't have because IT'S ALL BEEN DONE BY THE EU FOR OUR BENEFIT FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS. The UK pays poorly for the level of skills needed. Why do you think the government is desperately trying to entice skilled non-EU people from Canada and New Zealand (for example) to do what we can't?

Pay peanuts you get chimps. Fact of life. It's going to cost a fortune to hire specialists in dozens of fields which will then need to be made permanent if we wish to trade with the rest of the world and meet their regulations on all sorts from air travel to agriculture, IT to customs, border-control to aerospace.

Just. not. going. to. be. done. in. 12 months. it's. impossible.

That's the sort of issues that the pea-brained morons in charge are trying to ignore as if it's going to go away by sticking their tiny little ego-stuffed heads into the sand.

Not gonna happen. Sorry. 12 months to wait and see.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 14 2017, 06:59 AM

A hypothetical 2nd referendum

What should be done differently a second time?

Different wording for the question?

[alternative wordings would be interesting]

Implicitly be stated as binding rather than advisory?

Anything else?

Posted by: Oliver Aug 14 2017, 07:29 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 9 2017, 12:18 PM) *
We know why *they* hate it, but they have never been more than 1-2% of the UK population, and the referendum was won by a larger margin than that.


Not to be pedantic Vidcapper but in terms of UK population, the referendum was won by 1.93%, so judging by your estimate it *could* have been "right-wing Hitler lovers" that swung the referendum. tongue.gif

Posted by: MoistSummerFruit Aug 14 2017, 07:43 AM

I *meant* that people can't deny they voted for Brexit after thr virulent social media posts, so they won't be able to do th VERY human thing of, I never supported Brexit!! once it all goes to shet.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 14 2017, 08:14 AM

A second referendum in an environment where the press are legally obligated to print the truth and misleading and manipulating lies are punished by a proper regulator would be interesting. As would the BBC actually calling out the leave sides bullshit instead of believing that impartiality means permitting half truths and outright lies to go unchallenged.

Would be a game changer to see Farage strapped to a polygraph the entire campaign.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 14 2017, 08:14 AM

QUOTE(Oliver @ Aug 14 2017, 08:29 AM) *
Not to be pedantic Vidcapper but in terms of UK population, the referendum was won by 1.93%, so judging by your estimate it *could* have been "right-wing Hitler lovers" that swung the referendum. tongue.gif


Ah, but you're assuming that if that they hadn't voted for Leave, they would have voted for Remain - a very unsafe assumption given their opinions on Foreigners!

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 14 2017, 08:43 AM

"Swinging" the referendum isn't the same as being a swing voter. If there was enough of them to fundamentally change the outcome, it doesn't matter that they were never going to vote any other way. It matters that they exist.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 14 2017, 01:30 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 14 2017, 09:43 AM) *
"Swinging" the referendum isn't the same as being a swing voter. If there was enough of them to fundamentally change the outcome, it doesn't matter that they were never going to vote any other way. It matters that they exist.


Ah, but the referendum was won by 3.86%, not 1.93% - so the loss of a hypothetical 2% extreme-right votes would still have Leave leading by 1.86% since they wouldn't have switch to Remain, as you yourself acknowleged.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 14 2017, 01:50 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 14 2017, 02:30 PM) *
Ah, but the referendum was won by 3.86%, not 1.93% - so the loss of a hypothetical 2% extreme-right votes would still have Leave leading by 1.86% since they wouldn't have switch to Remain, as you yourself acknowleged.

That's if you assume that those views are only held by around 2% of the voting population.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Aug 14 2017, 03:13 PM

In other EU related news, a former Daily Mail hack, James Chapman, has been trying to build up momentum for a new political party called "Democrats", which from what I can gather is a Macron-inspired centrist party which is avowedly pro-EU, which hopes to pick up support both from Remain-leaning Tories, as well as from Labour members unhappy about Corbyn's gung-ho attitude towards a hard Brexit. They're https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/democrat-party-may-be-launched-in-the-uk-to-fight-brexit.html, and despite them not technically existing as a political party yet, they've had some "success", so to speak, with one betting firm giving them https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/uk/uk-politics/next-general-election/225280407/odds of getting the most seats at the next general election (for comparison's sake, Ukip is currently as 250-1).

I will be surprised if this takes off beyond the initial momentum for several reasons. The main one being that an avowedly pro-EU party, the Lib Dems, barely made any gains in June when they ran on that platform. Secondly, the FPTP system would keep them from gaining any real seats, unless they were able to gain a few defections from current MPs (and if they did, the two that have been mentioned as possible turncoats, Heidi Allen & Anna Soubry, would go down like a lead balloon among quite a few people). And let's not forget what happened to the SDP. The other issue is that I'm not sure whether the name would get past the Electoral commission, as they may view the name "Democrats" as too generic, and possibly too similar to current UK parties, so I imagine a change of name may be in order before next month.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and Prime Minister Chapman could be elected in 2022, keeping the UK in the EU, and returning the Elgin Marbles to Greece (which is apparently one of their policy items).

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 14 2017, 04:46 PM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 14 2017, 02:50 PM) *
That's if you assume that those views are only held by around 2% of the voting population.


I've no reason to doubt that, since that's what extreme-right parties tend to get in general elections.

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 14 2017, 05:42 PM

re: a second referendum, there would be no point having one until people know what they firmly have in the way of a concrete Ex-EU deal on the table. At that point there would be no bullshit, it would be there in black & white, warts and all (including how much it is or isnt hurting/going to hurt the economy).

A second centre-party would only split the centre vote and the pro-EU vote - they would have to have the momentum (cough) to appear instantly electable for anyone to abandon the Tory/Labour axis as they are both so extreme compared to previous recent-ish incarnations no-one would risk letting the other side in by not voting for the party likely to keep the other one out.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Aug 14 2017, 08:48 PM

QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Aug 14 2017, 04:13 PM) *
In other EU related news, a former Daily Mail hack, James Chapman, has been trying to build up momentum for a new political party called "Democrats", which from what I can gather is a Macron-inspired centrist party which is avowedly pro-EU, which hopes to pick up support both from Remain-leaning Tories, as well as from Labour members unhappy about Corbyn's gung-ho attitude towards a hard Brexit. They're https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/democrat-party-may-be-launched-in-the-uk-to-fight-brexit.html, and despite them not technically existing as a political party yet, they've had some "success", so to speak, with one betting firm giving them https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/uk/uk-politics/next-general-election/225280407/odds of getting the most seats at the next general election (for comparison's sake, Ukip is currently as 250-1).

I will be surprised if this takes off beyond the initial momentum for several reasons. The main one being that an avowedly pro-EU party, the Lib Dems, barely made any gains in June when they ran on that platform. Secondly, the FPTP system would keep them from gaining any real seats, unless they were able to gain a few defections from current MPs (and if they did, the two that have been mentioned as possible turncoats, Heidi Allen & Anna Soubry, would go down like a lead balloon among quite a few people). And let's not forget what happened to the SDP. The other issue is that I'm not sure whether the name would get past the Electoral commission, as they may view the name "Democrats" as too generic, and possibly too similar to current UK parties, so I imagine a change of name may be in order before next month.


They'd get more votes by simply rebranding the Liberal Democrats as the following:


Posted by: vidcapper Aug 15 2017, 05:25 AM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 14 2017, 06:42 PM) *
re: a second referendum, there would be no point having one until people know what they firmly have in the way of a concrete Ex-EU deal on the table. At that point there would be no bullshit, it would be there in black & white, warts and all (including how much it is or isnt hurting/going to hurt the economy).


But a vote on the deal would be rather different from a simple in/out referendum.

If the question was 'Accept/Reject the deal?', that still leaves open as what a rejection would mean - stay in, or get out without a deal?

I can't see any wording with a 'default Remain' option getting past the Leavers in the HoC.


QUOTE
A second centre-party would only split the centre vote and the pro-EU vote - they would have to have the momentum (cough) to appear instantly electable for anyone to abandon the Tory/Labour axis as they are both so extreme compared to previous recent-ish incarnations no-one would risk letting the other side in by not voting for the party likely to keep the other one out.


A new centrist party along the lines suggested would be a total non-starter - the LD's already occupy that ground, and the last GE shows there's barely room for one party there, let alone two!

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Aug 15 2017, 06:52 AM

There's numerically more remainers than leavers in the HoC so default remain wording would be a breeze to get past. However it wouldn't happen because of May

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 15 2017, 08:51 AM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 15 2017, 07:52 AM) *
There's numerically more remainers than leavers in the HoC so default remain wording would be a breeze to get past. However it wouldn't happen because of May


There was a similar Remain majority in the HOC for the Article 50 vote, yet that passed by 498-114.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/01/article-50-debate-vote-bill-pmqs-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-ivan-rogers-to-give-evidence-to-mps-about-why-he-quit-as-uks-ambassador-to-eu-politics-live

The point you sidestep is that MP's are still very mindful of the number of Leavers around, so any attempt to scupper Brexit will go down very badly with such voters!

Posted by: popchartfreak Aug 15 2017, 12:10 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 15 2017, 06:25 AM) *
But a vote on the deal would be rather different from a simple in/out referendum.

If the question was 'Accept/Reject the deal?', that still leaves open as what a rejection would mean - stay in, or get out without a deal?

I can't see any wording with a 'default Remain' option getting past the Leavers in the HoC.
A new centrist party along the lines suggested would be a total non-starter - the LD's already occupy that ground, and the last GE shows there's barely room for one party there, let alone two!


1. Why would there be only 2 options? Surely it would be "stay in the EU" "leave the EU without a deal" "accept the deal and leave the EU" or "stay in the EU until a better deal is constructed". Life is complex, but I think we could cope with getting our tiny brains round the concept of 4 options rather than the blank slate in/out which caused the current situation - a divided nation.

2. Yes, that's what I said.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 15 2017, 01:12 PM

QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 15 2017, 01:10 PM) *
1. Why would there be only 2 options? Surely it would be "stay in the EU" "leave the EU without a deal" "accept the deal and leave the EU" or "stay in the EU until a better deal is constructed". Life is complex, but I think we could cope with getting our tiny brains round the concept of 4 options rather than the blank slate in/out which caused the current situation - a divided nation.

2. Yes, that's what I said.


But the trouble with 3 options is that none are likely to reach 50%, and that means none with have a decisive mandate.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Aug 15 2017, 03:36 PM

I suspect the Electoral Commission would reject the idea of effectively having s many as four options.

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 15 2017, 06:18 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 14 2017, 05:46 PM) *
I've no reason to doubt that, since that's what extreme-right parties tend to get in general elections.

I would wager on there being a small but not insignificant share of Tory voters (and UKIP ones, although that's becoming less relevant as their vote share shrinks) with similarly extreme views.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Aug 15 2017, 10:22 PM

We've finally got a hint of the sort of regulation Leavers want to scrap. David Davis has described as "mad" the decision, on health and safety grounds, not to subject people working on Big Ben to the sound of its chimes every 15 minutes. Maybe he would like to volunteer to subject himself to that noise every 15 minutes for the next four years.

Maybe he could start slowly and build up to the full four times an hour. To begin with, he should have the sound blasted out next to him whenever he is interviewed on radio and television. At least it would mean we wouldn't have to listen to his lies and obfuscation any more. I would be prepared to make an exception. I would quite like to hear what he thinks the residents of Grenfell Tower's attitude to health and safety regulations might be.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 16 2017, 06:51 AM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 15 2017, 07:18 PM) *
I would wager on there being a small but not insignificant share of Tory voters (and UKIP ones, although that's becoming less relevant as their vote share shrinks) with similarly extreme views.


Are you suggesting they would instead vote for the extreme-right under a more proportional voting system?

Posted by: Soy Adrián Aug 16 2017, 07:01 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 16 2017, 07:51 AM) *
Are you suggesting they would instead vote for the extreme-right under a more proportional voting system?

Not necessarily. Many probably wouldn't even accept that they had extreme views, let alone formally acknowledging it.

Posted by: vidcapper Aug 16 2017, 08:20 AM

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Aug 16 2017, 08:01 AM) *
Not necessarily. Many probably wouldn't even accept that they had extreme views, let alone formally acknowledging it.


That's the problem isn't it - what 'extreme views' means is very subjective, and varies over time, too.

Powered by Invision Power Board
© Invision Power Services