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 The Middle East Today |
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 Jun 17 2013, 12:20 AM
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#41
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 DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480 
              
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QUOTE(Sandro Ranieri @ Jun 16 2013, 01:27 PM)  Lockerbie, the murder of WPC Fletcher, they have already happened, incidents where Gaddafi loyalists have caused terrorism on British soil, these happened while he was alive but for example the Lockerbie bombing was a revenge attack for America bombing Tripoli 2 years before Lockerbie. We weren't involved in the bombing of Tripoli by Reagan but were seen as Americas closest ally so double whammy, USA airliner blown up over British mainland, so we had associates of a mad dictator letting off bombs in revenge for attacking him so what is to say it won't happen again with Syria if we get involved in stuff that is not our business? I have 2 concerns with Assad being toppled. 1) Extremists taking control who want a conflict with Israel 2) UK being attacked by Syrian agents in revenge for bringing down Assad, you deny it will happen but Lockerbie showed it could You are able to distinguish between the actions of a regime and the actions of loyalists, right? Lockerbie, the Berlin discotheque bombings, the murder of WPC Fletcher -> actions ordered by the Gaddafi regime, not actions autonomously conducted by Gaddafi loyalists. There has never been an attack on the West by loyalist agents of a toppled non-hardline Islamist regime. Egypt and Libya have shown that 1 isn't really a given, given democracy will likely result if the rebels succeed as it has in Libya and Egypt (especially after the effort we'll have gone to to support the rebels - we wouldn't let democracy not be an option if we got involved. The only case where a rebellion like this has led to Islamist theocratic corruptions have been revolutions where the West didn't back the rebels, because hardline Islamism is more likely to prevail autonomously when we haven't invested in the outcome) and any country with sense knows Israel will thrash the hell out of them with American support. 2 has never happened. |
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Jul 27 2014, 07:21 PM
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#42
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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Probably should have an active thread to discuss current events...
Summary of the past couple of weeks: 
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Jul 27 2014, 07:25 PM
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#43
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
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If that were the case, then why does Hammas keep breaking ceasefires with more rockets?
Neither party is innocent here. |
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Jul 27 2014, 07:52 PM
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#44
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 WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 45,595 User: 88
 
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QUOTE(Michael! @ Jul 27 2014, 08:25 PM) If that were the case, then why does Hammas keep breaking ceasefires with more rockets? Neither party is innocent here. Reading between the lines, I think Hamas probably want Israel to keep firing rockets. Right now I don't believe that any of the attacks are actually killing any of the militants, it's just innocents. This looks great for Hamas, and awful for Israel. The more Israel attack, the more likely Western intervention is. Although I can't really see that happening, I think Israel are too important in the wider picture, and I'm not sure American really want to rest the resolve of their relationship on a major level. But the more it carries on, the more likely the West is going to have to make a decision. |
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Jul 27 2014, 08:05 PM
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#45
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Jul 27 2014, 08:52 PM) Reading between the lines, I think Hamas probably want Israel to keep firing rockets. Yep. A hideously malign organisation that have done more than any other to hurt ordinary Palestinians. |
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Jul 27 2014, 08:17 PM
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#46
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
   
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 27 2014, 09:05 PM) Yep. A hideously malign organisation that have done more than any other to hurt ordinary Palestinians. With the rather obvious exception of successive Israeli governments. The Palestinians have regularly made concessions only for Israel to ask for more. That attitude was directly responsible for the rise of Hamas. The only country in any position to try to resolve matters is the USA. Without their backing Israel would be finished. It's about time they used that power to get the Israeli government to engage with Palestinian representatives in good faith. At the moment that means having to talk to Hamas among others but that's life. After all, in order to bring some sort of peace to Northern Ireland, British governments had to talk to the IRA. |
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Jul 27 2014, 08:26 PM
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#47
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 27 2014, 09:17 PM) With the rather obvious exception of successive Israeli governments. The Palestinians have regularly made concessions only for Israel to ask for more. That attitude was directly responsible for the rise of Hamas. The only country in any position to try to resolve matters is the USA. Without their backing Israel would be finished. It's about time they used that power to get the Israeli government to engage with Palestinian representatives in good faith. At the moment that means having to talk to Hamas among others but that's life. After all, in order to bring some sort of peace to Northern Ireland, British governments had to talk to the IRA. An organisation that reacts to the one big opening towards the peace process (disengagement from Gaza) with more rocket attacks has no interest in peace. All that has done is secure the idea in the minds of Likudniks (who realistically would need to be on board with any peace process) that liberalisation with Palestine is counterproductive in terms of their safety. But then, Hamas are more interested in delegitimisation of Israel than peace and a two-state solution. |
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Jul 27 2014, 08:51 PM
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#48
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WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 45,595 User: 88
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 27 2014, 09:17 PM) With the rather obvious exception of successive Israeli governments. The Palestinians have regularly made concessions only for Israel to ask for more. That attitude was directly responsible for the rise of Hamas. The only country in any position to try to resolve matters is the USA. Without their backing Israel would be finished. It's about time they used that power to get the Israeli government to engage with Palestinian representatives in good faith. At the moment that means having to talk to Hamas among others but that's life. After all, in order to bring some sort of peace to Northern Ireland, British governments had to talk to the IRA. Isn't the major reason why the US are so reluctant to get involved because they're such an ally. They're practically the West's eyes in the Middle East, providing information about potential terrorist attacks etc. I'm not sure the USA would be willing to risk losing support of Israel, and potentially putting the country and severe risk. Obviously I'm sure there are many other reasons, and I'm not particularly glued up on the situation apart from both Israel and Hamas are at fault here. Sadly it's the innocents that are being affected her. Sure I read somewhere last night that the missing Israeli teenagers had nothing to do with Hamas too? Israel just used that as an excuse to attack. |
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Jul 27 2014, 09:01 PM
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#49
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 27 2014, 09:26 PM) An organisation that reacts to the one big opening towards the peace process (disengagement from Gaza) with more rocket attacks has no interest in peace. All that has done is secure the idea in the minds of Likudniks (who realistically would need to be on board with any peace process) that liberalisation with Palestine is counterproductive in terms of their safety. But then, Hamas are more interested in delegitimisation of Israel than peace and a two-state solution. What disengagement from Gaza? Israel controlled the supply of gas, electricity and water. Israel controlled the airspace. Israel controlled the coastline. That's a very odd idea of disengagement. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel must bear a lot of responsibility for their rise. Israel, reasonably enough, insisted the the PLO drop the part of its constitution that called for the destruction of Israel. The PLO eventually did that but that ended up bringing a solution no nearer. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that a new group calling for the destruction of Israel (Hamas) gained in strength. Israel and the US called for elections in the Palestinian territories. When Hamas won elections in 2006 the reaction of those two countries was along the lines of "Yes, we wanted you to have elections but only if you voted for our favoured candidates. You didn't so we won't talk to you any more". |
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Jul 27 2014, 09:06 PM
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#50
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Jul 27 2014, 09:51 PM) Isn't the major reason why the US are so reluctant to get involved because they're such an ally. They're practically the West's eyes in the Middle East, providing information about potential terrorist attacks etc. I'm not sure the USA would be willing to risk losing support of Israel, and potentially putting the country and severe risk. Obviously I'm sure there are many other reasons, and I'm not particularly glued up on the situation apart from both Israel and Hamas are at fault here. Sadly it's the innocents that are being affected her. Sure I read somewhere last night that the missing Israeli teenagers had nothing to do with Hamas too? Israel just used that as an excuse to attack. I haven't read that about the teenagers but it wouldn't surprise me. I have read that Israel knew from the very beginning that they were dead but I have seen no evidence to support that. Yes, Israel are, to some extent, the west's eyes in the region. However, perhaps the US could consider why the risk if terror attacks from that part of the world is considered to be so high. Perhaps the occupation of areas such as the Golan Heights (part of Syria) and the West Bank (Jordan) might have something to do with it. Maybe the building of settlements in the occupied territories (illegal under international law) could possibly be a factor. |
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Jul 28 2014, 12:26 AM
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#51
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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QUOTE(Michael! @ Jul 27 2014, 08:25 PM) If that were the case, then why does Hammas keep breaking ceasefires with more rockets? Neither party is innocent here. That's right, but Israel is less innocent. You can't expect the Palestinians to just sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the Israelis to finally be nice enough to treat them decently. Sure, we in the west in our comfortable positions can see that Hamas firing rockets is not productive or fair to any innocent Israeli civilians who potentially could get caught in the crossfire (though, the Israeli defence systems are so sophisticated that their civilians very rarely die). But if you've lived in the Gaza Strip all your life, been treated like dirt by the Israeli government, had food and basic supplies deprived from you, had the Israeli army come and deliberately bomb your family and friends constantly (since the Israeli government always deliberately target civilian areas despite their "defending themselves" bullshit), you probably wouldn't be viewing the situation rationally and dispassionately - you'd be mad as hell and wanting to get "revenge", you wouldn't be thinking about the big picture. If I was in the shoes of a Palestinian, I'd probably be cheering Hamas on tbh (though a Lib Dem MP who made comments to that effect was condemned for "endorsing terrorism!!!!!111" this week by people who themselves were apologists for the Israeli military's terrorism and war crimes). |
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Jul 28 2014, 01:25 AM
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#52
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 27 2014, 10:01 PM) What disengagement from Gaza? Israel controlled the supply of gas, electricity and water. Israel controlled the airspace. Israel controlled the coastline. That's a very odd idea of disengagement. I'm no fan of Hamas but Israel must bear a lot of responsibility for their rise. Israel, reasonably enough, insisted the the PLO drop the part of its constitution that called for the destruction of Israel. The PLO eventually did that but that ended up bringing a solution no nearer. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that a new group calling for the destruction of Israel (Hamas) gained in strength. Israel and the US called for elections in the Palestinian territories. When Hamas won elections in 2006 the reaction of those two countries was along the lines of "Yes, we wanted you to have elections but only if you voted for our favoured candidates. You didn't so we won't talk to you any more". Don't get me wrong, Sharon has a lot of blame to bear for humiliating Fatah at every step and working to propagate a religiously based faction to negotiate with (which has backfired INSANELY), but the Gazan disengagement was a step in the right direction by any account. Reacting to that step in the right direction and that freedom with rockets is about as counterproductive a move possible if peace is the ultimate aim. As it very clearly isn't for Hamas - not when you fire rockets from hospitals and schools, or use the concrete that you've requested to build shelters to instead build tunnels into Israel with the intent of kidnapping and killing Israeli citizens. Hamas's actions at every step send the message to Israeli people that liberalisation in Palestine is something that endangers them - and who ultimately pressures the government's actions on these things? It's just a horrifying tragedy on all fronts. It could have been avoided if it weren't for Yigal fucking Amir or for Sharon not getting incapacitated just as he decided to use his influence to pursue peace. |
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Jul 28 2014, 01:27 AM
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#53
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jul 28 2014, 01:26 AM) If I was in the shoes of a Palestinian, I'd probably be cheering Hamas on tbh (though a Lib Dem MP who made comments to that effect was condemned for "endorsing terrorism!!!!!111" this week by people who themselves were apologists for the Israeli military's terrorism and war crimes). To be accurate, he said he'd fire rockets himself in that position. Which is quite literally endorsing terrorism. Did he think that rocket would've hit Netanyahu? |
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Jul 28 2014, 01:44 AM
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#54
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 02:27 AM) To be accurate, he said he'd fire rockets himself in that position. Which is quite literally endorsing terrorism. Did he think that rocket would've hit Netanyahu? I didn't interpret his comment to mean he himself approved of or would encourage Palestinians to fire rockets. I interpreted it to mean that, if he was in the Palestinians' position he would probably resort to it, which is slightly different. And how are Hamas's actions any more terrorism than the Israeli government/armed forces' actions? It's always hard to not be suspicious when people condemn Hamas's "terrorism" while simultaneously defending Israel, that underlying their argument is a (usually unconscious) belief that it's worse to kill white people than it is to kill "brown" people. This post has been edited by Danny: Jul 28 2014, 01:57 AM |
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Jul 28 2014, 02:48 AM
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#55
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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There's a difference between firing a rocket which hopes to hit civilians and firing a rocket at an area rockets are being fired from. It's just disgusting that a lot of the time those rockets are purposefully fired from places with a lot of civilians.
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Jul 28 2014, 07:57 AM
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#56
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 02:25 AM) Don't get me wrong, Sharon has a lot of blame to bear for humiliating Fatah at every step and working to propagate a religiously based faction to negotiate with (which has backfired INSANELY), but the Gazan disengagement was a step in the right direction by any account. Reacting to that step in the right direction and that freedom with rockets is about as counterproductive a move possible if peace is the ultimate aim. As it very clearly isn't for Hamas - not when you fire rockets from hospitals and schools, or use the concrete that you've requested to build shelters to instead build tunnels into Israel with the intent of kidnapping and killing Israeli citizens. Hamas's actions at every step send the message to Israeli people that liberalisation in Palestine is something that endangers them - and who ultimately pressures the government's actions on these things? It's just a horrifying tragedy on all fronts. It could have been avoided if it weren't for Yigal fucking Amir or for Sharon not getting incapacitated just as he decided to use his influence to pursue peace. Ah yes, the tunnels. Wouldn't it be simpler - and legal - just to block the tunnels at the Israeli end? |
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Jul 28 2014, 08:00 AM
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#57
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 03:48 AM) There's a difference between firing a rocket which hopes to hit civilians and firing a rocket at an area rockets are being fired from. It's just disgusting that a lot of the time those rockets are purposefully fired from places with a lot of civilians. Gaza is one of the most crowded places on the planet so there are a lot of civilians just about anywhere. Oh, and what about the Israeli Defence Forces? Where is their headquarters? It's rather close to a school and a medical centre. |
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Jul 28 2014, 11:58 AM
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#58
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376
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I don't support terrorism of any kind by any party, killing people who have nothing to do with a cause one way or the other just creates an ongoing series of terrorist attacks and entrenched mindsets.
That said, I have little sympathy for Israel for all of the reasons listed by Suedehead2. They could resolve some of the Hamas problem by at least trying to help their neighbours instead of treating them like potential enemies. The USA deserves a lot of blame, kowtowing to the enormously rich and powerful Jewish lobby in the States, which has inflence far beyond the 2% of the population it occupies might suggest. Hollywood for a start, forms part of the propaganda machine, look at World War Z for instance and the welcoming and prepared Israel state to it's Arab neighbours zombies. As if they'd be invited in, the very idea! This post has been edited by popchartfreak: Jul 28 2014, 11:58 AM |
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Jul 28 2014, 06:32 PM
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#59
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 28 2014, 08:57 AM) Ah yes, the tunnels. Wouldn't it be simpler - and legal - just to block the tunnels at the Israeli end? Which I presume is already being done. My point was more to illustrate that Hamas don't act in good faith at any step of the way during the peace process though, and this works to make peace even more unlikely. If you were an Israeli citizen, what reaction would you have if your government even tried to reach out a hand given Hamas are trying to exploit absolutely every concession they get from the Israelis? |
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Jul 28 2014, 07:32 PM
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#60
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 07:32 PM) Which I presume is already being done. My point was more to illustrate that Hamas don't act in good faith at any step of the way during the peace process though, and this works to make peace even more unlikely. If you were an Israeli citizen, what reaction would you have if your government even tried to reach out a hand given Hamas are trying to exploit absolutely every concession they get from the Israelis? If you were a Palestinian, what reaction would you have if a government was keeping you in a prison camp, not giving you basic resources, constantly wrecking your neighbourhoods and killing your friends and family? This post has been edited by Danny: Jul 28 2014, 07:37 PM |
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