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BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ Brexit-y Things
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 08:14 AM
What happened to the Brexit thread?
Posted by: Brett-Butler 28th August 2019, 08:23 AM
For discussion of EU, Brexit and such. Posts that provoke my wrath will get spiked.
*edit* think I lost a few posts trying to move them in here. Apologies.
Posted by: Izzy 28th August 2019, 08:32 AM
So on the latest developments, dear god. Completely undemocratic. Remind everyone: The Leave campaign promised a deal. This is not what anyone voted for and anyone using it as such is a charlatan.
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 08:34 AM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Aug 28 2019, 09:23 AM)
*edit* think I lost a few posts trying to move them in here. Apologies.
Another referendum is undemocratic but this isn't?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 08:41 AM
Oh my god. So we'll have a far right dictator in all but name!
Posted by: T Boy 28th August 2019, 08:49 AM
This is genuinely quite upsetting news.
The British spirit will get us through though, I guess...
Posted by: Harve 28th August 2019, 08:56 AM
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/08/what-boris-johnsons-plan-prorogue-parliament-really-means
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th August 2019, 09:05 AM
I can’t see anything other than an election after Boris has framed it as him vs parliament and the EU. Short term gain for him at the cost of long term damage to our democracy
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 09:11 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 28 2019, 10:05 AM)
I can’t see anything other than an election after Boris has framed it as him vs parliament and the EU. Short term gain for him at the cost of long term damage to our democracy
It's likely.
Posted by: T Boy 28th August 2019, 09:13 AM
I actually feel sick.
Posted by: Trump2020 28th August 2019, 09:13 AM
Tweet from BBC's Nick Robinsin. "Hearing that the Queen could be asked to agree to prorogue parliament as early as today. She’s in Balmoral. Would be done by Order in Council. Only one source. Not confirmed. Watch this space"
Seems like Boris wants to do it before any court action stops him. 
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th August 2019, 09:31 AM
Too late then. Coz court action is already underway in Scotland.
And yes the Scottish court could stop it. It’s a UK court so it has jurisdiction over UK law
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 09:49 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 28 2019, 10:05 AM)
I can’t see anything other than an election after Boris has framed it as him vs parliament and the EU. Short term gain for him at the cost of long term damage to our democracy
Oh lord so this is unelected rich toff beaurocrat Dominick Cumming's plan.
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 10:13 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 10:49 AM)
Oh lord so this is unelected rich toff beaurocrat Dominick Cumming's plan.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 10:44 AM
This is what happens people when you vote for far right parties! We warned y'all back in 17 that the Tories were looking increasingly autocratic.
Hopefully this will finish off the Tories for good when it all hits the fan. I can see temain winning by over 60% when all's said and done. We'll have to adopt the euro and Scotland will leave, but the pound is already nearly on parity anyway. It won't be so different.
Posted by: Klaus 28th August 2019, 11:59 AM
Boris is the expert of political games
It’s actually disgusting to see it unfold and all go his way
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 11:59 AM
Well, the Fuhrer has now sought permission to prorogue parliament. Whatever you think on matters EU, this is an outrageous move and sets a dangerous precedent. It is an extreme example of a PM failing to apply the "that lot over there test". Before granting themselves new powers or using existing powers in a new way, a government should always ask themselves whether they are prepared to see the opposition (that lot over there) use the same powers. If they cannot answer with an unequivocal "Yes", they shouldn't go ahead themselves.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 12:56 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Aug 28 2019, 12:59 PM)
Boris is the expert of political games
It’s actually disgusting to see it unfold and all go his way
No, he can do what he eants as he is like Trump - a bumbling idiot. Mad May couldn't get away with following Cummings' disgusting plans, but Bojo can.
Posted by: vidcapper 28th August 2019, 01:16 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 09:41 AM)
Oh my god. So we'll have a far right dictator in all but name!
The Queen is a 'far-right dictator'?
Posted by: Izzy 28th August 2019, 01:20 PM
I’m fairly sure this happened in part (they may have been planning it anyway) because of the announcement yesterday that leaders among the opposition had agreed to go the legislation route to block no deal, and this completely nixes that.
Which is of course trampling on Parliamentary sovereignty and I expect to see massive outrage from the Brexiters because of it... oh wait.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 28th August 2019, 01:25 PM
Who knew the UK was this insane?
Well...all of your former colonies, tbh. The English are biting off more than they can chew this time though, happily alienating themselves from all potential allies while going around kicking up ruckus and starting disagreements.
What I continue to wonder is the deeper game, who benefits? On a macro level it looks like Russia with a side of China if they can destabilize the UK and US in one fell swoop - in terms of the dominance of English speaking culture and Western unity.
Posted by: coi 28th August 2019, 02:10 PM
The Queen has accepted the request to suspend Parliament.
Not really a surprise, but there we go.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 28th August 2019, 02:17 PM
QUOTE(coi @ Aug 28 2019, 03:10 PM)
The Queen has accepted the request to suspend Parliament.
Not really a surprise, but there we go.
A pity. I was hoping she would turn down the request, just so we could get the headline ‘Queen - The Show Must Go On’.
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 02:17 PM
Thank you Boris for being a leader for the UK, you are doing a fantastic job and delivering every single time.
Only 9 weeks until we're out of the disgusting EU project.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 28th August 2019, 02:24 PM
What about it is disgusting?
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 02:36 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Aug 28 2019, 03:24 PM)
What about it is disgusting?
I've moved on from arguing why I want the UK to leave the EU. It's finally happening and British democracy is being restored.
Don't be surprised when the Irish republic starts having the same conversation about why your country should also leave the EU.
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 02:38 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:36 PM)
I've moved on from arguing why I want the UK to leave the EU. It's finally happening and British democracy is being restored.
Don't be surprised when the Irish republic starts having the same conversation about why your country should also leave the EU.
How is British democracy being restored by proroguing parliament?
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 02:43 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Aug 28 2019, 03:38 PM)
How is British democracy being restored by proroguing parliament?
Parliament is being prorogued because of the Queen's speech.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 02:43 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:17 PM)
Thank you Boris for being a leader for the UK, you are doing a fantastic job and delivering every single time.
Only 9 weeks until we're out of the disgusting EU project.
How is ignoring the fact that we are a parliamentary democracy a sign of leadership? Will you be cheering from the rafters when a future PM uses this as a precedent to force through something you don't agree with?
Posted by: Trump2020 28th August 2019, 02:45 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:17 PM)
Thank you Boris for being a leader for the UK, you are doing a fantastic job and delivering every single time.
Only 9 weeks until we're out of the disgusting EU project.
Well said. Am not alone in my views here.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 02:46 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:43 PM)
Parliament is being prorogued because of the Queen's speech.
Rubbish. When parliament is prorogued in preparation for the opening of the next session, that usually lasts for just a few days. It should be obvious to anybody with any active brain cells that this is being done to usurp the will of parliament - something that would be described as a coup if it happened somewhere else.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 02:47 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 03:45 PM)
Well said. Am not alone in my views here.
So perhaps you could explain what is disgusting about the EU. We've been waiting for a long time for somebody to enlighten us.
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 02:48 PM
The EU are really coming across like a scorned lover now.
"you will not do it"
"you are nothing without me"
"you are making a big mistake"
I say to them, the UK is going to soar and we will NEVER look back.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 02:51 PM
HOW IS BRITISH DEMOCRACY BEING RESTORED?!
We have a far right government SUSPENDING PARLIAMENT. OMFG. IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF DEMOCRACY.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 02:51 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:48 PM)
The EU are really coming across like a scorned lover now.
"you will not do it"
"you are nothing without me"
"you are making a big mistake"
I say to them, the UK is going to soar and we will NEVER look back.
UK by itself wasn't doung so hot pre-EU
No empire now sorry.
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 02:55 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 03:51 PM)
UK by itself wasn't doung so hot pre-EU
No empire now sorry.
The UK doesn't need an empire to make a positive difference to the world, France and Germany are still living in the 20th century, they need to move into the 21st century and realise empires don't work anymore.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 02:57 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:43 PM)
Parliament is being prorogued because of the Queen's speech.
There is no new government sooo? The last time this happened it caysed civil war. You cannot suspend parliament like this or you suspend democracy. It's gross.
And yeah no. An island of 60 million or 2% of rhe world economy vs the largest trading bloc in the world, USA and China. Ho hmmm. Ho hmmm.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 02:59 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:48 PM)
The EU are really coming across like a scorned lover now.
"you will not do it"
"you are nothing without me"
"you are making a big mistake"
I say to them, the UK is going to soar and we will NEVER look back.
The EU is only too aware that leaving without a deal will damage the UK far more than it will damage the rest of the EU. This is rather like a juggernaut and a Robin Reliant charging towards each other, daring the other driver to blink first.
Posted by: *Tim 28th August 2019, 03:00 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 02:55 PM)
The UK doesn't need an empire to make a positive difference to the world, France and Germany are still living in the 20th century, they need to move into the 21st century and realise empires don't work anymore.
LMAO what is this logic :')
The EU is not an empire, babe. It is a collaboration of nations that all benefit from the powerbloc that is formed, even when it is not as evident as one might think.
I wish you all good luck on the that thing called World Market.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 03:03 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:55 PM)
The UK doesn't need an empire to make a positive difference to the world, France and Germany are still living in the 20th century, they need to move into the 21st century and realise empires don't work anymore.
Yet it is the UK with its isolationism and right wing governments and exceptionalism that is living in the past. Sorry.
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 03:04 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 28 2019, 03:59 PM)
The EU is only too aware that leaving without a deal will damage the UK far more than it will damage the rest of the EU. This is rather like a juggernaut and a Robin Reliant charging towards each other, daring the other driver to blink first.
No, the UK is not playing the EU's games, the British people have decided democratically to leave the EU and we want to go our own way. The EU can spin it however they want, I don't give a damn what they think.
For the first time in my life, I will be able to say that my country will no longer be inside the EU project and that makes me very, very excited about the UK's future.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 03:13 PM
51 v 48%. You will find any leave mandate is for a Norway-style model of remaining within the single market, as leave promised. At best. Two nations and the youth rejected brexshit. This is not democratic.
Posted by: *Tim 28th August 2019, 03:14 PM
I love how Brexiteers love to rave on about "the peoples will" but at the same time cheer on BoJo for suspending the parliament
Wasn't the parliament chosen by "the people"? I don't remember a majority of the UK voting for BoJo?
Posted by: vidcapper 28th August 2019, 03:16 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 04:13 PM)
51 v 48%. You will find any leave mandate is for a Norway-style model of remaining within the single market, as leave promised. At best. Two nations and the youth rejected brexshit. This is not democratic.
Except that your definition of 'democratic' is 'anything *I* agree with' with anything else being fascism...
Posted by: PeaceMob 28th August 2019, 03:16 PM
QUOTE(*Tim @ Aug 28 2019, 04:00 PM)
LMAO what is this logic :')
The EU is not an empire, babe. It is a collaboration of nations that all benefit from the powerbloc that is formed, even when it is not as evident as one might think.
I wish you all good luck on the that thing called World Market.
South Korea did, they went from being one of the poorest countries in the world after the Korean War to one of the richest. South Korea is one of the most pro free market countries in the world.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 03:17 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 28 2019, 04:16 PM)
Except that your definition of 'democratic' is 'anything *I* agree with' with anything else being fascism...
No. Just this whole brexshit debacle has been far from democratic and the uk system, and us for that matter, is designed to protect and return governments for the rich landed gentry?
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 03:18 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 28 2019, 03:46 PM)
Rubbish. When parliament is prorogued in preparation for the opening of the next session, that usually lasts for just a few days. It should be obvious to anybody with any active brain cells that this is being done to usurp the will of parliament - something that would be described as a coup if it happened somewhere else.
Exactly. We're so complacement — there would be riots elsewhere.
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 04:04 PM)
No, the UK is not playing the EU's games, the British people have decided democratically to leave the EU and we want to go our own way. The EU can spin it however they want, I don't give a damn what they think.
For the first time in my life, I will be able to say that my country will no longer be inside the EU project and that makes me very, very excited about the UK's future.
You can't pick and choose democracy. This is autocratic.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 03:22 PM
Democracy did not begin and end with one advisory referendum on one day. We have a right wing coup going on.
Not that our system with a right eing media constantly brainwashing people is democratic anyway. Liverpool had lower levels of Euroskeptisim than any other place. Why?! The Sun is banned there.
Posted by: *Tim 28th August 2019, 03:25 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:16 PM)
South Korea did, they went from being one of the poorest countries in the world after the Korean War to one of the richest. South Korea is one of the most pro free market countries in the world.
Can you really compare the UK to the South Korea though? Both have very different economies. Like what exactly does the UK have to offer one a worldwide scale?
Even now your import is 25% higher than your export, whereas South Korea has the opposite
Posted by: blacksquare 28th August 2019, 03:29 PM
QUOTE(*Tim @ Aug 28 2019, 04:14 PM)
I love how Brexiteers love to rave on about "the peoples will" but at the same time cheer on BoJo for suspending the parliament
Wasn't the parliament chosen by "the people"? I don't remember a majority of the UK voting for BoJo?
It's insane.
They have been screaming about parliamentary sovereignty but
this is completely fine.
Just imagine if Remain won with 52% and then went all-in — joining the Euro and so on. Would it be fine to suspend parliament then? Of course not.
Posted by: Izzy 28th August 2019, 03:30 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 28 2019, 03:16 PM)
Except that your definition of 'democratic' is 'anything *I* agree with' with anything else being fascism...
The definitions of Brexiter democracy seems to begin and end with one referendum that apparently supersedes the core principle of democracy on which our society is based, that of Parliament.
This is a coup and a horrific breach of parliamentary sovereignty and it is unbelievable that people are calling it anything but.
Posted by: Trump2020 28th August 2019, 03:35 PM
As has been pointed out on DS, people seem to be forgetting that Parliament has been prorogued before and we weren't leaving the EU then. It's nothing to do with Brexit but that a new session of Parliament will begin with a Queen's speech.
Posted by: Izzy 28th August 2019, 03:37 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 03:35 PM)
As has been pointed out on DS, people seem to be forgetting that Parliament has been prorogued before and we weren't leaving the EU then. It's nothing to do with Brexit but that a new session of Parliament will begin with a Queen's speech.
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 28 2019, 02:46 PM)
Rubbish. When parliament is prorogued in preparation for the opening of the next session, that usually lasts for just a few days. It should be obvious to anybody with any active brain cells that this is being done to usurp the will of parliament - something that would be described as a coup if it happened somewhere else.
Point this out back to them, there's a good chap.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 03:57 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 04:35 PM)
As has been pointed out on DS, people seem to be forgetting that Parliament has been prorogued before and we weren't leaving the EU then. It's nothing to do with Brexit but that a new session of Parliament will begin with a Queen's speech.
And as I pointed out earlier, parliament is normally suspended for a few days ahead of the Queen's Speech. It has never been suspended simply so that the government can ignore the will of parliament.
Posted by: Trump2020 28th August 2019, 04:17 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 28 2019, 04:57 PM)
And as I pointed out earlier, parliament is normally suspended for a few days ahead of the Queen's Speech. It has never been suspended simply so that the government can ignore the will of parliament.
I have seen many Tory MP's and ministers interviewed on College Green across from Parliament by Sky News this afternoon. All said it's got nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit but to precede a new session of Parliament. Would they all lie?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 04:19 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 05:17 PM)
I have seen many Tory MP's and ministers interviewed on College Green across from Parliament by Sky News this afternoon. All said it's got nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit but to precede a new session of Parliament. Would they all lie?
YES!
Posted by: Chez Wombat 28th August 2019, 04:25 PM
Because when have Tory MPs ever lied eh?
This is horrifying. Dictator like tactics here. I always knew Boris was a lot more smart than he put himself across as so I suppose something like this isn't that surprising. My only hope is this will have long term repercussions on both him and his party to make his reign relatively short.
Posted by: Izzy 28th August 2019, 04:26 PM
Chris. There's this concept in politics called 'spin'. Look it up and do yourself a favour.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 04:35 PM
They all get told what to say and repeat it. They are basically a hive repeating what the top brass, unelected Eton pm Bojo and unelected beaurocrat Cummings, told them to say. That's it.
Posted by: Harve 28th August 2019, 04:37 PM
Ruth Davidson is resigning as leader of the Scottish Tories.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 04:40 PM
Their poll numbers in Scotland will plummet even more now! Ba bye Bojo!
Posted by: Harve 28th August 2019, 04:47 PM
The likes of Edinburgh was indeed the only place in the whole of the UK where the Tories beat the Brexit Party in May's European elections. Scotland overall had the least bad result, thanks to the distinct brand of the Ruth Davidson party, which was able to keep soft Remainers on board in 2017 where Theresa May had failed in urban and suburban England. It will be tricky for them now, as there just aren't enough Unionist Leave voters around.
Posted by: Botchia 28th August 2019, 05:07 PM
Tbh I’m in shock that this is what this country has come to. We’re getting into Charles I territory in 2019 
Posted by: Brett-Butler 28th August 2019, 05:26 PM
This all makes me sad. It feels like the precursor to something even worse, and I don't think we have any way of returning to normalcy any time soon.
Posted by: Rooney 28th August 2019, 06:38 PM
Bloody hell can always count on the ardent Brexiteers to have a good laugh. As usual as clueless as ever. Leaving the "undemocratic EU" via the means of being undemocratic to our own bloody country. Hilarious. I'm still waiting on all these great deals everyone was promised in 2016.
Let's be honest what both sides of the coin are doing are fairly ridiculous, however the difference is one of them is democratic and the other is not. If Johnson is trying to force the EU's hand then fair enough, but it's way too risky in my opinion. I don't think they will budge. In the process of doing this he has likely ignited all of his opposition to find some common ground now. Probably a move to show the Brexiteers he is all about Brexit. I think a general election is a case of when and not if not, one is happening for sure. Even if Johnson wins over enough Labour leave voters and hoovers up the Brexit vote I am not sure that will be enough.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 06:45 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 05:17 PM)
I have seen many Tory MP's and ministers interviewed on College Green across from Parliament by Sky News this afternoon. All said it's got nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit but to precede a new session of Parliament. Would they all lie?
So you don't think they're just repeating the message given to them by unelected bureaucrat Dominic Cummings? I'm sure they will find your naivete most touching.
Posted by: Rooney 28th August 2019, 06:57 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 28 2019, 05:17 PM)
I have seen many Tory MP's and ministers interviewed on College Green across from Parliament by Sky News this afternoon. All said it's got nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit but to precede a new session of Parliament. Would they all lie?
I can't believe I missed this
Chris I like to see other view points, but if you believe this then sorry but you've well and truly had the wool pulled over your eyes
You'll be telling me Elvis is not dead next.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 28th August 2019, 07:18 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:36 PM)
I've moved on from arguing why I want the UK to leave the EU. It's finally happening and British democracy is being restored.
Don't be surprised when the Irish republic starts having the same conversation about why your country should also leave the EU.
Lmao
Yeah sure we will leave to join our bully Britain who pillaged, starved,
literally genocided and demonized our people for centuries with a smile on their face while telling their citizens we were troublemakers, and leave the EU that has helped us become wealthy and independent. That seems super likely!
Posted by: T Boy 28th August 2019, 07:23 PM
People going on about Britain being great without the EU are literally making us look like the worst nation in Europe.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 28th August 2019, 07:23 PM
The colonial Brexshitters are demanding Ireland leaves because the English told them to!
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th August 2019, 08:35 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Aug 28 2019, 05:37 PM)
Ruth Davidson is resigning as leader of the Scottish Tories.
This has made me happy to read. Good riddance to the c**t. She won’t be missed
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 28th August 2019, 08:37 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Aug 28 2019, 08:23 PM)
People going on about Britain being great without the EU are literally making us look like the worst nation in Europe.
It’s fast becoming apparent that we are and probably always have been
Posted by: T Boy 28th August 2019, 08:45 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 28 2019, 09:37 PM)
It’s fast becoming apparent that we are and probably always have been
But that hypocrisy, banging on about how great we are! It just makes us look so terrible and I like to keep faith that at least we’re not all like that but we’ll forever be judged by how awful our worst people are. Some examples of those people have been pointing themselves out throughout this thread.
Posted by: Rooney 28th August 2019, 08:53 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Aug 28 2019, 09:45 PM)
But that hypocrisy, banging on about how great we are! It just makes us look so terrible and I like to keep faith that at least we’re not all like that but we’ll forever be judged by how awful our worst people are. Some examples of those people have been pointing themselves out throughout this thread.
A big problem with the left/centre of the UK (well, maybe more specifically England) is that the nationalism/patriosism side is fully associated with the right-wing. I mean I suppose a lot of it comes back to the 80s with the National Front, but the reaction to Brexit is "oh we're all f***ed, let's get an Irish passport' rather than embracing nationalism and saying yes I am british, but I am also European. Weird, as I'm sure if you look across the rest of Europe (and certain quarters of the British Isles...) nationalism is claimed by both the right/left.
If people are proud to come from Yorkshire for example is that associated with the right-wing? Nope. If anything I'd say it's left that push that ground. Strange one. Weird that the a lot of the left seem to distance themselves where they are from in the UK. Not having this as a dig or anything to anyone- just pointing it out as I think this is part of the reason why the far-right idelogy has grown and seemingly blinded lots of general people.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th August 2019, 09:44 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 28 2019, 09:53 PM)
A big problem with the left/centre of the UK (well, maybe more specifically England) is that the nationalism/patriosism side is fully associated with the right-wing. I mean I suppose a lot of it comes back to the 80s with the National Front, but the reaction to Brexit is "oh we're all f***ed, let's get an Irish passport' rather than embracing nationalism and saying yes I am british, but I am also European. Weird, as I'm sure if you look across the rest of Europe (and certain quarters of the British Isles...) nationalism is claimed by both the right/left.
If people are proud to come from Yorkshire for example is that associated with the right-wing? Nope. If anything I'd say it's left that push that ground. Strange one. Weird that the a lot of the left seem to distance themselves where they are from in the UK. Not having this as a dig or anything to anyone- just pointing it out as I think this is part of the reason why the far-right idelogy has grown and seemingly blinded lots of general people.
That illustrates why this British / English / European thing is such a nonsense. Yes, many people from Yorkshire declare themselves to be Yorkshiremen (or women), but that doesn't stop them also being English and British. Why, then, do so many people insist that they are British but not European? A simple look at the map should tell them otherwise.
Posted by: Steve201 28th August 2019, 10:25 PM
QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Aug 28 2019, 03:55 PM)
The UK doesn't need an empire to make a positive difference to the world, France and Germany are still living in the 20th century, they need to move into the 21st century and realise empires don't work anymore.
Did you ever actually read the 20th century history between France & Germaby??
Posted by: Steve201 28th August 2019, 10:32 PM
QUOTE(Botchia @ Aug 28 2019, 06:07 PM)
Tbh I’m in shock that this is what this country has come to. We’re getting into Charles I territory in 2019
I did ask the question a year ago if this could lead to a civil war!
Posted by: Steve201 28th August 2019, 10:39 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 28 2019, 09:53 PM)
A big problem with the left/centre of the UK (well, maybe more specifically England) is that the nationalism/patriosism side is fully associated with the right-wing. I mean I suppose a lot of it comes back to the 80s with the National Front, but the reaction to Brexit is "oh we're all f***ed, let's get an Irish passport' rather than embracing nationalism and saying yes I am british, but I am also European. Weird, as I'm sure if you look across the rest of Europe (and certain quarters of the British Isles...) nationalism is claimed by both the right/left.
If people are proud to come from Yorkshire for example is that associated with the right-wing? Nope. If anything I'd say it's left that push that ground. Strange one. Weird that the a lot of the left seem to distance themselves where they are from in the UK. Not having this as a dig or anything to anyone- just pointing it out as I think this is part of the reason why the far-right idelogy has grown and seemingly blinded lots of general people.
It's because of the British history of colonialism which has always been claimed by the right since the 19th century and this in turn is the same people/parties that wanted to secure the union as the closest home empire eg opposition to Irish self government and in turn the same people who were anti-immigrant in the post Second World War period.
It's the same in NI politics - unionism and unionist areas are most sympathetic to Brexit and voices of the right of the tories or Britain First views.
Even in NI make up unionist areas are bed decked with union flags on lamp posts for much of the summer months around the 12th July and most new comers to the country mainly want to live in traditionally nationalist or 'mixed' areas as they are generally more welcoming due to the historic discrimination in these areas. Same with other Celtic nationalisms in Scotland and Wales.
Posted by: vidcapper 29th August 2019, 04:56 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 04:17 PM)
No. Just this whole brexshit debacle has been far from democratic and the uk system, and us for that matter, is designed to protect and return governments for the rich landed gentry?
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Aug 28 2019, 04:22 PM)
Democracy did not begin and end with one advisory referendum on one day. We have a right wing coup going on.
Not that our system with a right eing media constantly brainwashing people is democratic anyway.
It's statements like these that leave you with little credibility here.
Posted by: Izzy 29th August 2019, 05:31 AM
Not really, he's right if a little forceful and reckless with his language. Right-wing newspapers ARE relentless propaganda machines with consistent factual reporting errors that ensnare people with no critical thinking skills into believing their view of the world and the only people who will benefit from a no-deal Brexit ARE elites with stakes outside the country.
Posted by: vidcapper 29th August 2019, 05:40 AM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Aug 29 2019, 06:31 AM)
Not really, he's right if a little forceful and reckless with his language. Right-wing newspapers ARE relentless propaganda machines with consistent factual reporting errors that ensnare people with no critical thinking skills into believing their view of the world and the only people who will benefit from a no-deal Brexit ARE elites with stakes outside the country.
I don't thinks it's fair to try & blame *only* right-wing newspapers for being 'propaganda machines' - IMO the Guardian is just as guilty from the opposite side.
Posted by: Izzy 29th August 2019, 06:01 AM
I figured you'd mention that so I pre-emptively went and did a fact-check on https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/, a site that seems unbiased and demonstrates its methodology.
On accuracy of reporting:
Right-wing: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-express/ (mixed), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/(mixed), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/ (questionable), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-times-of-london/(high), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-sun/(mixed, pretty generous but okay)
Times is fair.
For left-wing: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/(high), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-independent/(high, surprisingly), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mirror/(mixed)
No questionable sources on the left side unless I've missed something.
But what seems most damning is https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/guardian-trusted-sun-least-trusted-online-news-brand-pamco-reveals/1492881which finds Guardian, Independent and the i the most trusted newspapers, and The Sun and MailOnline the least.
I don't know, I can't seem to find anything that would support the Guardian being untrustworthy in the slightest. Certainly they are left of center and use some loaded language but they don't report inaccurate statements that could be classed as propaganda, something most right-wing newspapers do.
Posted by: vidcapper 29th August 2019, 06:24 AM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Aug 29 2019, 07:01 AM)
I figured you'd mention that so I pre-emptively went and did a fact-check on https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/, a site that seems unbiased and demonstrates its methodology.
On accuracy of reporting:
Right-wing: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-express/ (mixed), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/(mixed), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/ (questionable), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-times-of-london/(high), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-sun/(mixed, pretty generous but okay)
Times is fair.
For left-wing: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/(high), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-independent/(high, surprisingly), https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mirror/(mixed)
No questionable sources on the left side unless I've missed something.
The fact that it describes The *Independant* as left-leaning gives me pause, though...
QUOTE
But what seems most damning is https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/guardian-trusted-sun-least-trusted-online-news-brand-pamco-reveals/1492881which finds Guardian, Independent and the i the most trusted newspapers, and The Sun and MailOnline the least.
Most/least trusted by whom though? Their readers? Their opponents?
In any case, I don't have a problem with people supporting a newspaper, whatever it's stance, as IMO newspapers are as least as much influenced by by their readers views, as they are driving them.
Obviously, people won't regularly read newspapers that have opposite views to them.
Posted by: Suedehead2 29th August 2019, 07:13 AM
There is a big difference between biased reporting and outright lies. Newspapers should also feel some sort of obligation at least to give some room to alternative points of view.
I cannot recall a single Guardian front page in the referendum campaign that could have been mistaken for a Remain campaign leaflet. OTOH, the front pages of the Mail and Express resembled Leave campaign leaflets on many occasions.
Posted by: blacksquare 29th August 2019, 09:25 AM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 28 2019, 09:53 PM)
A big problem with the left/centre of the UK (well, maybe more specifically England) is that the nationalism/patriosism side is fully associated with the right-wing. I mean I suppose a lot of it comes back to the 80s with the National Front, but the reaction to Brexit is "oh we're all f***ed, let's get an Irish passport' rather than embracing nationalism and saying yes I am british, but I am also European. Weird, as I'm sure if you look across the rest of Europe (and certain quarters of the British Isles...) nationalism is claimed by both the right/left.
If people are proud to come from Yorkshire for example is that associated with the right-wing? Nope. If anything I'd say it's left that push that ground. Strange one. Weird that the a lot of the left seem to distance themselves where they are from in the UK. Not having this as a dig or anything to anyone- just pointing it out as I think this is part of the reason why the far-right idelogy has grown and seemingly blinded lots of general people.
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Aug 28 2019, 11:39 PM)
It's because of the British history of colonialism which has always been claimed by the right since the 19th century and this in turn is the same people
There has always been a strong link between the right and nationalism in the UK, and it has represented something especially nasty over the last few years. It's not difficult to understand why the left doesn't want to be associated with that.
I don't think the majority of the left are actually as unpatriotic as people think though — they're just not harkening back to the days of the empire. I'm proud to live in a country with the NHS, to have the freedoms that I have, etc. I just think we can do better.
Posted by: Izzy 29th August 2019, 09:26 AM
Anyway, I do hope that the significant proportion of Boris’ cabinet that spoke out against prorogation are planning to resign, because they are so honourable and are known for keeping their word (below https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/cwwurl/thursday_290516_megathread_et_tu_boris/eyggogw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app):
Amber Rudd: “We are not Stuart kings”
Matt Hancock: Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy and risks a general election. I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same
Sajid Javid: "You don't deliver democracy by trashing democracy - you can't just shut down parliament"
Michael Gove: “It would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy” - BBC's Marr show.
Andrea Leadsom: "No I don’t believe I would (support prorogation) and I don’t believe it would happen"
Nicky Morgan: “Proroguing Parliament is clearly a mad suggestion” - BBC Question Time
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 29th August 2019, 09:47 AM
Ach will they f***. If they had morals or principles they wouldn’t be a tory
Posted by: blacksquare 29th August 2019, 10:13 AM
Terrible.
Posted by: Steve201 29th August 2019, 05:42 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Aug 29 2019, 10:25 AM)
There has always been a strong link between the right and nationalism in the UK, and it has represented something especially nasty over the last few years. It's not difficult to understand why the left doesn't want to be associated with that.
I don't think the majority of the left are actually as unpatriotic as people think though — they're just not harkening back to the days of the empire. I'm proud to live in a country with the NHS, to have the freedoms that I have, etc. I just think we can do better.
The left uses it for good such as making it about equality and the state like SF/PC/SNP
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 29th August 2019, 09:18 PM
There needs to be a better way of distinguishing between Civic Nationalism and Blood & Soil Nationalism in day to day discourse. Fed up of people lumping all nationalist movements together. There is absolutely no similarities between the neo nazi Brexit party and the SNP and yet the Tories and their media pals are happy to lump both in the same nationalist basket. The latter welcomes migrants and the contributions they make, the former want to round them up and deport them or gleefully watch them drown in the channel when they attempt to come to our country while calling them cockroaches. Hardly similar
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 30th August 2019, 02:09 PM
Gordon Brown has said the EU is going to withdraw the deadline! His little coup will be for nothing if parliament comes back to an extended desdline
Posted by: Suedehead2 30th August 2019, 07:03 PM
Meanwhile, the current DExEU Secretary has tweeted about just-in-time supply chains and how important they are. He gives the impression that this is news to him, despite many people having been warning about the consequences of ending frictionless trade for many months. He wants to start talks now about how this can continue if we leave without a deal. He seems blissfully unaware that this seamless trade is part of the single market he wants to leave. Is there no end to this government's ignorance?
Posted by: Doctor Blind 30th August 2019, 07:09 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 30 2019, 08:03 PM)
Meanwhile, the current DExEU Secretary has tweeted about just-in-time supply chains and how important they are. He gives the impression that this is news to him, despite many people having been warning about the consequences of ending frictionless trade for many months. He wants to start talks now about how this can continue if we leave without a deal. He seems blissfully unaware that this seamless trade is part of the single market he wants to leave. Is there no end to this government's ignorance?
Not really a surprise to us, though it is shocking that these people have managed to get into these important roles despite being so ignorant.
British driving licences will no longer be sufficient on their own to drive in parts of Europe (crucially in France) in the event of a No Deal, I presume this would have been in one of David Davis' impact assessments, had he actually bothered to work on them.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 30th August 2019, 10:52 PM
So many things these dense dipshits haven’t even begun to thought about. This is just such a fundamentally stupid idea.
The manufacturers have been saying for 4 years that JiT manufacturing is dependent on single market and customs union membership. I just don’t get why anyone with a functioning brain would think that no deal is a good idea. 40 years of progress and integration ceases immediately with nothing to replace it. It’s the shit like reciprocal recognition of standards and qualifications that are unglamorous and would never make the side of a bus but make our country work that is gonna be the real killer come brexshit day.
I reckon I’ll probably need one for when I relocate to Germany in a few months so I’m getting an IDP. Will exchange my license immediately to try and get in before any transition arrangements end on the German side but the IDP will cover me to be safe in the interim. I feel for the haulage crews who are potentially gonna be stranded on the continent unable to drive if they’re unaware they need one
Posted by: Rooney 31st August 2019, 11:34 AM
If the EU remove the deadline date, then I truly believe the EU have outsmarted Boris Johnson. After the parliment trick was passed, I didn't think the EU would consider removing the 31st October deadline.
From all of what I am reading it's clear the Government is considering short term solutions and wondering how to win a General Election. Luckily most big scales businesses have considered the supply chain impact, but I can tell you it's truly at breaking point. A No Deal Brexit will inevitably lead to a lot of carnage and the Government's plan must surely have been to pin the blame on the EU to win the support at home- if the EU remove the deadline then it makes it harder for the emotional message to hit home.
Posted by: Suedehead2 31st August 2019, 12:38 PM
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 31st August 2019, 01:07 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 31 2019, 12:34 PM)
If the EU remove the deadline date, then I truly believe the EU have outsmarted Boris Johnson. After the parliment trick was passed, I didn't think the EU would consider removing the 31st October deadline.
From all of what I am reading it's clear the Government is considering short term solutions and wondering how to win a General Election. Luckily most big scales businesses have considered the supply chain impact, but I can tell you it's truly at breaking point. A No Deal Brexit will inevitably lead to a lot of carnage and the Government's plan must surely have been to pin the blame on the EU to win the support at home- if the EU remove the deadline then it makes it harder for the emotional message to hit home.
Trying to fight one on people v parliament. Lord knows they can't win one on likeability, honesty, policy or caring for the average person!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 31st August 2019, 01:10 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 31 2019, 01:38 PM)
Brexiters ... comments? Without the all PolitIcIAnS LiE defence you all love.
Posted by: vidcapper 31st August 2019, 01:56 PM
IN case anyone is wondering, I think Boris proroging parliament was OTT.
Posted by: Suedehead2 31st August 2019, 03:06 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 31 2019, 02:56 PM)
IN case anyone is wondering, I think Boris proroging parliament was OTT.
As I said earlier, one of the worst parts of it is that it sets a precedent. Even some Tory MPs seem to have worked that out.
Posted by: Trump2020 31st August 2019, 04:21 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 31 2019, 04:06 PM)
As I said earlier, one of the worst parts of it is that it sets a precedent. Even some Tory MPs seem to have worked that out.
How can it set a precedant when it's been done before? Even Major did it. Not for as long but he still did it.
Posted by: Suedehead2 31st August 2019, 04:30 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 31 2019, 05:21 PM)
How can it set a precedant when it's been done before? Even Major did it. Not for as long but he still did it.
It hasn't been done to frustrate the will of parliament. This sets a very dangerous precedent.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 31st August 2019, 06:01 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 31 2019, 05:21 PM)
How can it set a precedant when it's been done before? Even Major did it. Not for as long but he still did it.
Oh LORD.
Brainwashed.
Posted by: Harve 31st August 2019, 07:25 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 31 2019, 05:21 PM)
How can it set a precedant when it's been done before? Even Major did it. Not for as long but he still did it.
He did it right before an election, not to prevent parliament from making one of the most important decisions that it will ever take.
Posted by: Steve201 31st August 2019, 11:03 PM
That's the problem when you have no written constitution
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 31st August 2019, 11:34 PM
QUOTE(Trump2020 @ Aug 31 2019, 05:21 PM)
How can it set a precedant when it's been done before? Even Major did it. Not for as long but he still did it.
Longest since WW2.
Come on. Do the maths. If every political expert is telling you it's unconsritutional and unlrecedented, you should listen to them and not lying politicians. Btw, those same Tories said the SAME as the experts ... till Bojo the Tinpot Clown decided to suspend the parliament of the people.
Posted by: vidcapper 1st September 2019, 05:09 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 1 2019, 12:03 AM)
That's the problem when you have no written constitution
There's a difference between 'no written constitution' and no constitution at all, though - surely no-one here is foolish enough to believe the latter?
Posted by: Rooney 2nd September 2019, 07:21 PM
Anyone else think that Boris actually WANTS a general election? That's certainly the impression I get.
Clearly going for the PR orchestrated by Cummings. Definitely think it looks like an election is happening though...
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 2nd September 2019, 07:26 PM
He clearly wants one and will use this proeogue parliament business to purge the Tory rebels out the party and replace them with landed gentry yes men. He will have a people v parliament election narrative too and an I'll see brexshit through - he started it, he'll finish it line. He uses Trump's trick of what he says he doesn't want he wants and what he says he wants he doesn't.
Posted by: Rooney 2nd September 2019, 07:33 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 2 2019, 08:26 PM)
He clearly wants one and will use this proeogue parliament business to purge the Tory rebels out the party and replace them with landed gentry yes men. He will have a people v parliament election narrative too and an I'll see brexshit through - he started it, he'll finish it line. He uses Trump's trick of what he says he doesn't want he wants and what he says he wants he doesn't.
I think he wants one as I truly believe it is the only way to get us out of the EU for 31st October. I read the below in The Times earlier- very interesting. It's a risky strategy especially if the Remain side agree on a strategy to not stand in marginals. He's obviously working on winning the Brexit Vote, but for that to happen he's going to have to get in to bed with Farage and I think the point about a lot of moderate Conservatives then standing as Independents is a real possibility.
QUOTE
Now Downing Street is preparing for a general election, with a series of populist spending pledges. Mr Johnson seems to relish the prospect of a “people versus parliament” campaign but one cabinet minister acknowledges that it would be “incredibly risky” for him to go to the polls. Labour has made clear that it would not support an election if it meant the country crashing out on October 31 and so the Tories might still have the Brexit Party snapping at their heels.
If the prime minister forces all his candidates to back a “no deal” Brexit, dozens of moderates are considering standing as independent Conservatives, which would further split the Tory vote. Even ministers would find it difficult to sign up to such a pledge that would alienate the five million Conservative voters who supported Remain. With Ruth Davidson no longer leading the Scottish Tories, the Conservative Party could be wiped out in Scotland, while also losing seats to the Liberal Democrats in the south west of England.
According to one insider, Number 10 has been polling “culture war” issues, such as transgender rights, to see whether they can be weaponised against Labour in northern working-class constituencies but this would only reinforce the Tories’ reputation among metropolitan liberals as the “nasty party”. A former cabinet minister fears the Conservative Party could be destroyed. “The country is now divided along the lines of Leave or Remain, not left or right, and we could end up being smashed.”
This might not bother Mr Cummings, who has expressed his contempt for the Tories in the past, but it worries Tory politicians. One backbencher says that getting Conservative MPs to support an early general election “is the modern day political equivalent of the 1970s Jonestown mass suicide [in which cult followers took their own lives on the orders of their leader]” and more are coming to the conclusion that they would prefer a second referendum to resolve the Brexit crisis.
Posted by: TheSnake 2nd September 2019, 08:07 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 2 2019, 08:33 PM)
He's obviously working on winning the Brexit Vote, but for that to happen he's going to have to get in to bed with Farage and I think the point about a lot of moderate Conservatives then standing as Independents is a real possibility.
Its all about strategy. The Conservative leadership probably feel they have no choice but to go down the route they are taking to 'save' the party.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 2nd September 2019, 08:12 PM
Yes, he clearly wants a General Election - and because Corbyn has been droning on about it for the best part of 2 years, it's very likely he'll get it.
A high risk strategy, as the Maybot soon found out in June 2017.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 2nd September 2019, 08:15 PM
The Banter Era dictates that if Johnson calls a General Election, then Labour will win with near to a working majority with Comrade Corbyn as the new Prime Minister (regardless of what the opinion polls currently say, as I've mentioned before, they're only really worth looking at a few days before polling day), so Johnson should be careful what he wishes for.
Posted by: Rooney 2nd September 2019, 08:20 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Sep 2 2019, 09:12 PM)
Yes, he clearly wants a General Election - and because Corbyn has been droning on about it for the best part of 2 years, it's very likely he'll get it.
A high risk strategy, as the Maybot soon found out in June 2017.
It is as high risk as they come imo. I don't think the polls tell us anything really, but certainly to stop a majority the opposition need to work together for once and come to at least some sort of agreement in principal...
Guess we're either going to end up with No Deal or a 2nd Refendendum.. or a complete gridlock once again
Posted by: Botchia 2nd September 2019, 08:30 PM
This has been unbelievably orchestrated to create a Boris v the evil Parliament narrative for an election the government has wanted and been preparing for as soon as Boris was elected and as soon as he put together the most Hard Brexit Cabinet possible. It's been plainly clear with every decision and every move the government has made over the past month or so. He's been astute in always saying he didn't want an election so he could play the victim to impressionable voters who don't know any better when it looks like he's been forced into it by the evil democracy supporting MPs.
Sadly, Corbyn cannot play games like Boris and he's potentially been seriously outmanoeuvred into allowing a Tory majority at the election.
Posted by: Klaus 2nd September 2019, 08:50 PM
I’m loving Phillip Hammond being more outspoken in the last WEEK than his entire time as Chancellor
He’s just asked Johnson, in writing, his proposals for the changes to the Withdrawal Agreement and what progress he has made since his trip to Berlin
Posted by: Doctor Blind 2nd September 2019, 09:07 PM
Fiscal Phil has always been a total LEDGE, certainly a much better Chancellor than Gideon (George) Osborne.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 2nd September 2019, 09:12 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Sep 2 2019, 10:07 PM)
Fiscal Phil has always been a total LEDGE, certainly a much better Chancellor than Gideon (George) Osborne.
And he also has the benefit of looking like what Brett Anderson will look like 15 years from now.
Posted by: Botchia 2nd September 2019, 09:16 PM
Gideon feels like a lifetime ago now
At least he provided us with this iconic moment
Posted by: Rooney 2nd September 2019, 09:44 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Sep 2 2019, 09:50 PM)
I’m loving Phillip Hammond being more outspoken in the last WEEK than his entire time as Chancellor
He’s just asked Johnson, in writing, his proposals for the changes to the Withdrawal Agreement and what progress he has made since his trip to Berlin
No surprise really, I suspect he still feels very bitter about the way May was shafted by the likes of Boris Johnson. At the end of the day he's a moderate Conversative in a safe seat for him personally. At least he's using his position to good effect and obviously picking up on the fact that he is probably the Conversative with the least to lose and the biggest media profile.
Posted by: Steve201 2nd September 2019, 10:14 PM
Boris clearly wants an election and charlatan that he is he's happy with either outcome from it! He knows an election will divide the remain parties more than the tories if it's before a decision on Brexit.
Posted by: Common Sense 2nd September 2019, 10:47 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 2 2019, 08:21 PM)
Anyone else think that Boris actually WANTS a general election? That's certainly the impression I get.
Clearly going for the PR orchestrated by Cummings. Definitely think it looks like an election is happening though...
Yes but if he gets MP's to vote for an election surely he'll have to ask the EU for an extension? Or will we just still crash out in the middle of an election campaign. He's said today that we're leaving on 31st Oct come what may.
Posted by: Rooney 2nd September 2019, 11:16 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 2 2019, 11:47 PM)
Yes but if he gets MP's to vote for an election surely he'll have to ask the EU for an extension? Or will we just still crash out in the middle of an election campaign. He's said today that we're leaving on 31st Oct come what may.
Dunno how it's gonna work yet. To really avoid No Deal I think Labour need to avoid voting for a general election. Problem is I don't think there is any way Corbyn doesn't accept the challenge of an election. If Corbyn and his team are really smart I think they can move Number 10 in to a really difficult position. Surely you force the extension THEN the electiion...
Posted by: Common Sense 2nd September 2019, 11:22 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 3 2019, 12:16 AM)
Dunno how it's gonna work yet. To really avoid No Deal I think Labour need to avoid voting for a general election. Problem is I don't think there is any way Corbyn doesn't accept the challenge of an election. If Corbyn and his team are really smart I think they can move Number 10 in to a really difficult position. Surely you force the extension THEN the electiion...
Yes that's how I see it Rooney but the chance of an election may just be too tempting for Corbyn.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 07:13 AM
An October 14 election (a Monday) could increase the chances of crashing out without a deal. Corbyn has indicated that he would not support an election in those circumstances. Of course, he has indicated all sorts of contradictory things, so who knows?
If there is an election and it results in another hung parliament, things could be very messy - messier still if there is still a 31 October deadline. I wonder what Eton's teacher of "If you need to risk the future of the country to further your career, go for it" is doing now. Clearly two of his former pupils were listening carefully in that lesson.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 01:23 PM
Dominic Raab has now followed Gove in refusing to say whether the government would obey a law ordering it to seek an extension to Article 50 rather than taking us out of the EU without a deal. It has to be assumed that they have both done so with Johnson's approval. Anyone still deny that Johnson is acting like a dictator?
Posted by: blacksquare 3rd September 2019, 02:42 PM
Boris has just lost his majority.
Posted by: Izzy 3rd September 2019, 02:44 PM
Confirmed in a statement! Live in front of Boris. How satisfying *.*
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 02:47 PM
How DELICIOUS!
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd September 2019, 02:52 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 03:47 PM)
How DELICIOUS!
and foot-shooting - virtually no-one who crosses the floor survives the following GE.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 02:53 PM
But surely he had a majority of just one, so how did Lib Dems gain TWO MPs?
Posted by: Izzy 3rd September 2019, 02:55 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 02:53 PM)
But surely he had a majority of just one, so how did Lib Dems gain TWO MPs?
The new Breconshire Lib Dem MP, who wasn't sitting in Parliament before, I presume.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 3rd September 2019, 02:58 PM
I’m screaming
Posted by: PeteFromLeeds 3rd September 2019, 03:01 PM
Well thank goodness for that.
Posted by: blacksquare 3rd September 2019, 03:05 PM
Boris is rattled and absolutely floundering.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 03:09 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 03:52 PM)
and foot-shooting - virtually no-one who crosses the floor survives the following GE.
And? Maybe he has decided that the future of the country is more important than his career.
Posted by: blacksquare 3rd September 2019, 03:16 PM
Am I the only one who is at least a little shocked at just how bad Boris is at this?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 03:17 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 3 2019, 04:05 PM)
Boris is rattled and absolutely floundering.
Someone link these hilarious videos!!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 03:20 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 03:52 PM)
and foot-shooting - virtually no-one who crosses the floor survives the following GE.
You are SUCH a Tory!
"Ask not what I can do for my country, but what my country can do for my career and wallet!"
Posted by: Brett-Butler 3rd September 2019, 03:23 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 03:52 PM)
and foot-shooting - virtually no-one who crosses the floor survives the following GE.
Sir Winston Churchill of £5 note fame didn’t do too badly.
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd September 2019, 03:23 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 3 2019, 04:09 PM)
And? Maybe he has decided that the future of the country is more important than his career.
Funny how it's much easier for comfortably-off people to take a 'moral' stance...
On a side note -IMO if we remain in the EU, there won't be a country left to be proud of, just one tiny part of an US of Europe.
Posted by: Izzy 3rd September 2019, 03:30 PM
Boris is really quite unprepared. That half-hearted self-interruption to acknowledge Lee's crossing, it felt so bad. I really expected him to be better. He'll be nothing on a general election trail.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 03:32 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 04:23 PM)
Funny how it's much easier for comfortably-off people to take a 'moral' stance...
On a side note -IMO if we remain in the EU, there won't be a country left to be proud of, just one tiny part of an US of Europe.
Completely WROOOONG!!!!
Sounds like you're throwing your toys out of the pram?
If we get forced ot of the beautiful EU, we will be a vassal state to the ACTUAL United States of Trumplandia!
Posted by: Chez Wombat 3rd September 2019, 03:41 PM
Amazing, c'mon the Left lockdown *.*
Posted by: Bré 3rd September 2019, 03:46 PM
Oh today is going to be spicy.
I've all but given up hope of avoiding no deal Brexit but at least we can enjoy the political theatre on the way there! Phillip Lee crossing the floor in the middle of Boris' speech is just hilarious.
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 04:00 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 03:23 PM)
Funny how it's much easier for comfortably-off people to take a 'moral' stance...
On a side note -IMO if we remain in the EU, there won't be a country left to be proud of, just one tiny part of an US of Europe.
As opposed to what? Becoming a nation that looks inward, wallows in pointless nostalgia, turns its back on everybody and becomes Trumps bitch?
I know which one I would rather.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 04:04 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 04:23 PM)
Funny how it's much easier for comfortably-off people to take a 'moral' stance...
On a side note -IMO if we remain in the EU, there won't be a country left to be proud of, just one tiny part of an US of Europe.
You mean the people wealthy enough to know they won't be affected very much if the economy goes to pot after leaving without a deal?
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd September 2019, 04:13 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 04:32 PM)
Completely WROOOONG!!!!
Sounds like you're throwing your toys out of the pram?
If we get forced ot of the beautiful EU, we will be a vassal state to the ACTUAL United States of Trumplandia!
Given the choice, I'd prefer being part of the USA than the EU.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 04:17 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 05:13 PM)
Given the choice, I'd prefer being part of the USA than the EU.
Given the choice I’d like to be a millionaire rather than making other people rich who I work for.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 04:31 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 05:13 PM)
Given the choice, I'd prefer being part of the USA than the EU.
Well then let's put it to the vote! Btw, we are FAAAR FAAAR closer to Europe geographically, militarily and are historically and economically INTERTWINED with Europe. Sorry. You are after pink unicorns
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 04:48 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 04:13 PM)
Given the choice, I'd prefer being part of the USA than the EU.
Oh yes, privatized health care, eye watering student debt, rife nationalism(of the worse kind), draconian gun laws and the freedom to live work and travel in 27...oh wait scratch that last one.
Sounds swell.
I work with a number of Americans who have emigrated here(to Iceland) through marriage, specialist skills or whatever means they can. One of them is a girl who had a particularly nasty look term sickness. After initial treatment she was told it "probably" wouldn't come back but she should probably undergo after care and further treatment just to be sure.....she couldn't afford the treatment so she took her chances and just is hoping she'll be fine. Lovely Stuff
None of them have ANY intention of going back.
Posted by: Kath 3rd September 2019, 04:55 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 04:23 PM)
Funny how it's much easier for comfortably-off people to take a 'moral' stance...
On a side note -IMO if we remain in the EU, there won't be a country left to be proud of, just one tiny part of an US of Europe.
I'm assuming you'll be proud of us being America's bitch
Posted by: *Tim 3rd September 2019, 04:56 PM
I am thoroughly entertained
Posted by: Kath 3rd September 2019, 04:56 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 3 2019, 05:48 PM)
Oh yes, privatized health care, eye watering student debt, rife nationalism(of the worse kind), draconian gun laws and the freedom to live work and travel in 27...oh wait scratch that last one.
Sounds swell.
I work with a number of Americans who have emigrated here(to Iceland) through marriage, specialist skills or whatever means they can. One of them is a girl who had a particularly nasty look term sickness. After initial treatment she was told it "probably" wouldn't come back but she should probably undergo after care and further treatment just to be sure.....she couldn't afford the treatment so she took her chances and just is hoping she'll be fine. Lovely Stuff
None of them have ANY intention of going back.
Mald you make me incredibly envious! Any chance that Iceland would take in a woman (just turned sixty but still incredibly attractive - and with my own finances!)
Posted by: Brett-Butler 3rd September 2019, 05:00 PM
Looking at things from a very different angle on the Philip Lee defection, I think that one possible beneficiary of his leaving the Tories to join the Lib Dems is the Brexit Party. Let's not forget when Farage was in charge of Ukip, their 2015 party mantra was that the three major parties were all the same. Now that we have a situation where a previously loyal Conservative can cross the floor and join the Liberal Democrats, members of whom only a few months ago would have denounced him as "Tory scum" (if they were being polite), you better believe that he's going to use that to his advantage. I would not be surprised if he made the video of Lee crossing the floor a major centrepiece of BP's next Party Election Broadcast.
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 05:02 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 3 2019, 04:56 PM)
Mald you make me incredibly envious! Any chance that Iceland would take in a woman (just turned sixty but still incredibly attractive - and with my own finances!)
If you're from outside the EEA then you need a specialist skill. From inside then you simply need a European passport. So basically your options if you're British are try and get a company to hire you or come before October 31st
Your only other option is marriage. I can't help you with that as I am neither Iceland nor that way inclined!
That's just the reality I'm afraid. It's really quite difficult from outside of Europe. Though there are a few people who live here from various parts of the world so they must manage it somehow.
Posted by: Kath 3rd September 2019, 05:08 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 3 2019, 06:02 PM)
Your only other option is marriage. I can't help you with that as I am neither Iceland nor that way inclined!
Just my bloody luck!
Posted by: Kath 3rd September 2019, 05:10 PM
As a small sort of consolation - is there anyone else here apart from myself who hopes that that Jack Russell puppy that Bojo the Clown has cynically adopted - shits in every one of his slippers and shoes! I know its petty - but the vision is just too wonderful!
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 05:13 PM
QUOTE(Bré @ Sep 3 2019, 04:46 PM)
Oh today is going to be spicy.
I've all but given up hope of avoiding no deal Brexit but at least we can enjoy the political theatre on the way there! Phillip Lee crossing the floor in the middle of Boris' speech is just hilarious.
It's disgraceful. He should have more respect for the PM who is speaking.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 05:14 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 3 2019, 06:10 PM)
As a small sort of consolation - is there anyone else here apart from myself who hopes that that Jack Russell puppy that Bojo the Clown has cynically adopted - shits in every one of his slippers and shoes! I know its petty - but the vision is just too wonderful!
That puppy's so cute and it's his so goes with him when he leaves No.10 in 5 or 10 years' time.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 05:16 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 3 2019, 04:16 PM)
Am I the only one who is at least a little shocked at just how bad Boris is at this?
Not really
He's lied and cheated through life and even with the best education and tutors and support money could buy could only manage a crappy degree and was subsequently fired from his first job for telling outright lies.
His whole career he has fell upwards by resting on daddy's money and being a useful idiot for powerful friends. Really no different to Trump. If he didn't come from money and have a posh voice he'd be nothing. Here's hoping that's where he'll end up sometime.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 05:17 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 06:14 PM)
That puppy's so cute and it's his so goes with him when he leaves No.10 in 5 or 10 years' time.
An election ploy. Poor dog getting stuck with a landed gentry twat who only values the rich
Posted by: Kath 3rd September 2019, 05:17 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 06:14 PM)
That puppy's so cute and it's his so goes with him when he leaves No.10 in 5 or 10 years' time.
I'm sure Dominic Cummings suggested to Bojo that to get the Jack Russell that looked most like the one in Midsomer Murders would be a winning move! I wouldn't be surprised even if Bojo was allergic to dog hairs - but he's willing to put up with it for the photo opportunities cynical gobsh/te that he is!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 05:18 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 06:13 PM)
It's disgraceful. He should have more respect for the PM who is speaking.
It's BEAUTIFUL. LANDED GENTRY AND THEIR SYCOPHANT UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS SUFFERERS LIKE CHRIS OUT OF POWER FOREVER!!!
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 05:20 PM
The puppy is probably right at home with the other two whiny bitches squatting in number 10 currently.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 05:23 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 3 2019, 06:17 PM)
I'm sure Dominic Cummings suggested to Bojo that to get the Jack Russell that looked most like the one in Midsomer Murders would be a winning move! I wouldn't be surprised even if Bojo was allergic to dog hairs - but he's willing to put up with it for the photo opportunities cynical gobsh/te that he is!
Apparently it's getting on great with the cat.
I hope Boris is picking up the poo and training it go outside. Puppies are hard work until they get the message.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 05:28 PM
Aristocrat Eton buffoon, who got the puppy as a BEYOND OBVIOUS ELECTION PLOY to try and soften his evil Tory image, will not be doing any of that. Also they CAN say it gets on well with the cat, as 10 is bigger than Downing Street - or 11, which he probably went for as he is a megalomaniac and needs the biggest. There is ROOM.
Remember, this is the Tory elite aristocrat millionaire from Eton who was reportedly consulting with his election team about making TRANS RIGHTS an election issue to fight over to try and win some northern seats from Labour!! Trump probably told him about how he weaponised it in his election and how the Repukes always try to demonise some minority or another to get in.
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 05:32 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 05:13 PM)
It's disgraceful. He should have more respect for the PM who is speaking.
oh SOD OFF
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 05:39 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 3 2019, 06:32 PM)
oh SOD OFF
I won't. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. This is not North Korea.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 05:39 PM
Makes me wonder what Chris thought of Blair and Brown?
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 05:41 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 3 2019, 06:39 PM)
Makes me wonder what Chris thought of Blair and Brown?
I thought Blair was great. Don't know why he's hated so much.
Posted by: blacksquare 3rd September 2019, 05:42 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 3 2019, 06:16 PM)
Not really
He's lied and cheated through life and even with the best education and tutors and support money could buy could only manage a crappy degree and was subsequently fired from his first job for telling outright lies.
His whole career he has fell upwards by resting on daddy's money and being a useful idiot for powerful friends. Really no different to Trump. If he didn't come from money and have a posh voice he'd be nothing. Here's hoping that's where he'll end up sometime.
I didn't expect much, of course, but this was another level of terrible. He came undone within minutes. His entire persona really does only work when he is able to speak freely without opposition.
Posted by: Izzy 3rd September 2019, 05:42 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 05:39 PM)
I won't. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. This is not North Korea.
funny, because you're falling for distraction tactics (the dog) that North Korea would be embarrassed to use.
Gotta say, really impressed with Corbyn tonight, looked on fire against Johnson. No mandate, no morals and no majority
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 05:46 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 06:39 PM)
I won't. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. This is not North Korea.
Even if the landed gentry aristocrats and the one party state media would love it to be!
Posted by: blacksquare 3rd September 2019, 05:46 PM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 3 2019, 06:42 PM)
Gotta say, really impressed with Corbyn tonight, looked on fire against Johnson. No mandate, no morals and no majority
Same. Pleasantly surprised — it's been a long time since it felt like there was any real opposition. Boris was an absolute mess in comparison.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 06:12 PM
He's a pathetic little man. I look forward to seeing him humiliated further. Nothing better than seeing someone selfish and lazy get their comeuppance. At some point you have to blame the parents for not snapping him out of his me me me attitude as a child and letting him take it into his 50s.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 06:34 PM
I can't believe I am actually seeing Corbyn give a good speech.. I say this with gritted teeth.
Clearly been heavily briefed by the Unions with the impact of No Deal.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 06:57 PM
What speech?? Glad to see y'all FINALLY getting on the Corbyn train - especially Ronney, who supported the LANDED GENTEY ARISTOCRACY PARTY and MAD MAY over him!!!
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 07:02 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 07:57 PM)
What speech?? Glad to see y'all FINALLY getting on the Corbyn train - especially Ronney, who supported the LANDED GENTEY ARISTOCRACY PARTY and MAD MAY over him!!!
I still don't support Corbyn. I support Remain. He gave a good speech and I am glad he has finally realised Labour's place in trying to orchestrate a People's Vote.
If we go back to 2016 Corbyn could have got us out of this mess in the bloody first place.
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 07:08 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 05:39 PM)
I won't. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. This is not North Korea.
I'm sure certain parts of the Tory party would quite like it if it was though.
Not that that makes any difference to you of course. Your response as usual would be "Oh everything will be fine because my good friend Boris has said it will be."
Posted by: Brett-Butler 3rd September 2019, 07:56 PM
So if a General Election isn't called, we'll have a very well-hung parliament.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 08:00 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 3 2019, 08:56 PM)
So if a General Election isn't called, we'll have a very well-hung parliament.
I hope Corbyn doesn't give in to the temptation of an election so early. I think it would be close even if the whips tried to get it through.
An early election on October 14th plays right in to Johnson's hand. Let's concentrate on stopping No Deal.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 08:10 PM
Older members will remember Tony Blair being called a control freak by the Tories and their friends in the press. Very few MPs were deprived of the whip by Blair, so I don't know what that makes Johnson. Naturally, Johnson and his loudest cheerleaders happily voted against the government several times earlier this year and went unpunished.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 3rd September 2019, 08:15 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 3 2019, 09:10 PM)
Older members will remember Tony Blair being called a control freak by the Tories and their friends in the press. Very few MPs were deprived of the whip by Blair, so I don't know what that makes Johnson. Naturally, Johnson and his loudest cheerleaders happily voted against the government several times earlier this year and went unpunished.
I've been highly critical of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn & Momentum's threat to deselect any MPs that don't toe his narrow line, so I'm even more critical of Johnson taking things a step further.
Posted by: Suedehead2 3rd September 2019, 08:25 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 3 2019, 09:15 PM)
I've been highly critical of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn & Momentum's threat to deselect any MPs that don't toe his narrow line, so I'm even more critical of Johnson taking things a step further.
Far too many people want to turn both parties into a personality cult.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 09:07 PM
Let's hope the Government has defeated this. Rumours that if it's lost it Boris will have a vote for GE immediately, maybe tomorrow.
Posted by: dandy* 3rd September 2019, 09:15 PM
328 to 301! 
That was wider than I had expected!
Posted by: coi 3rd September 2019, 09:16 PM
Boris is going to table a motion to hold a general election then...
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:21 PM
Bojo defeated! 
No GE either!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 3rd September 2019, 09:22 PM
So SO satisfying to watch Boris SQUIRM. 1st PM to lose their 1st Commons vote since 1783.
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 09:24 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 09:21 PM)
No GE either!
Unfortunately that's still very likely isn't it?
Or have I misunderstood
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:24 PM
Remember Bojo and Hammond repeating 100 times that they didn't want a GE? Lying TURDS.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:24 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 3 2019, 10:24 PM)
Unfortunately that's still very likely isn't it?
Or have I misunderstood
Unlikely. Labour will block it.
Posted by: Chez Wombat 3rd September 2019, 09:35 PM
Not that a GE would be the best option right now, but I'm very pleased that the toerag didn't get his way and democracy came through tonight, feels nice to be positive about Brexit for once!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:39 PM
Chris will be cryin into his cider reet aboot now
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 09:42 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 10:39 PM)
Chris will be cryin into his cider reet aboot now
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow. Everyone who voted out has been made a fool of.
I just don't know what MP's want. They rejected May's deal and will probably reject no deal this week. Didn't the EU says tell us what you do want and get back to us. We're the laughing stock of Europe.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:44 PM
LMAO!!The right wing is so violent
Posted by: mald487 3rd September 2019, 09:46 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 09:42 PM)
We're the laughing stock of Europe.
Finally we agree on something.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 09:47 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow. Everyone who voted out has been made a fool of.
I just don't know what MP's want. They rejected May's deal and will probably reject no deal this week. Didn't the EU says tell us what you do want and get back to us. We're the laughing stock of Europe.
Leave campaigned for the Norway model. That v remain are the ONLY models with any sort of mandate.
Posted by: Mack. 3rd September 2019, 09:47 PM
Does any MP know what they are doing? The laughing stock of the world at the moment.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 3rd September 2019, 09:51 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow.
Sounds LEGIT.
Posted by: Klaus 3rd September 2019, 09:53 PM
Good to see Jacob visibly annoyed that he isn’t being given an easy pass to make money from the country’s turmoils, even with his new place in Cabinet.
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow. Everyone who voted out has been made a fool of.
So they’re going to kill people?
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 09:54 PM
Am not listening but someone on DS is and a caller said that. Some very very angry Brexiteers calling in tonight to radio talk shows.
Mogg's sure not happy tonight.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 3rd September 2019, 09:55 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:54 PM)
Am not listening but someone on DS is and a caller said that. Some very very angry Brexiteers calling in tonight to radio talk shows.
Yes, total LOONS Chris - probably best not to take what they say as representative of the public at large, even leave voters.
Posted by: T Boy 3rd September 2019, 09:56 PM
Yes, threatening to kill people will make everyone more sympathetic to the cause.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 09:57 PM
Nicholas Soames confirms that he, Ken Clarke and the other rebels will have the Whip removed by letter tomorrow.
Fancy Churchill's grandson and the Father of The House both losing the Tory Whip.
Posted by: dandy* 3rd September 2019, 09:59 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow. Everyone who voted out has been made a fool of.
If anything the voters and campaigners for Brexit have been made a fool of, yes, but largely because of the complete lack of a plan or even vague comprehension of how they were ever going to achieve what they wanted.
It’s like not receiving a Christmas present because you chose something that was always going to be way out of budget, no amount of stomping is going to actually get it. And just because you put it on your Santa list doesn’t mean you automatically should have it regardless.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 10:00 PM
QUOTE(dandy* @ Sep 3 2019, 10:59 PM)
If anything the voters and campaigners for Brexit have been made a fool of, yes, but largely because of the complete lack of a plan or even vague comprehension of how they were ever going to achieve what they wanted.
It’s like not receiving a Christmas present because you chose something that was always going to be way out of budget, no amount of stomping is going to actually get it. And just because you put it on your Santa list doesn’t mean you automatically should have it regardless
May got a reasonable deal. Not perfect, no but it was okay and should have passed. WE'D HAVE BEEN OUT NOW.
Posted by: T Boy 3rd September 2019, 10:03 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:00 PM)
May got a reasonable deal. Not perfect, no but it was okay and should have passed. WE'D HAVE BEEN OUT NOW.
Hmmm, and who was very instrumental in blocking that deal 3 TIMES?
Oh, I believe it was your dear friend, Boris....
No wonder tonight has been so delicious.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 10:06 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:00 PM)
May got a reasonable deal. Not perfect, no but it was okay and should have passed. WE'D HAVE BEEN OUT NOW.
Your lord Prime Minister voted against this.. several times!!!!!!!!! He is a knobhead.
The problem is there is no majority for anything. There is going to be a General Election but not when the Government was expecting it. Johnson has basically turned the Torie party in to the Brexit Party now. Don't see a way they win a majority again especially since they have probably lost Scotland.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 10:07 PM
Rory Stewart has just announced that he's not defending his seat at the next election.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 10:09 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 3 2019, 11:06 PM)
Your lord Prime Minister voted against this.. several times!!!!!!!!! He is a knobhead.
The problem is there is no majority for anything. There is going to be a General Election but not when the Government was expecting it. Johnson has basically turned the Torie party in to the Brexit Party now. Don't see a way they win a majority again especially since they have probably lost Scotland.
If they came to an agreement with the Brexit party they'd get a majority.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 10:10 PM
Mass riots are coming if the UK leaves the EU too.
Except then they will be of younger and able bodied people, not pensioners shaking their sticks and zimmer frames in fury at... something they know nothing about. "No, don't you see!" they cry, "we WANT food shortages and no medicine! Blitz spirit! Like my parents had to go through before I was born and were forever haunted by! THAT's what we want and what we voted for in 2016, even though at the time nothing like that was mentioned!"
Posted by: Doctor Blind 3rd September 2019, 10:13 PM
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 10:14 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 3 2019, 11:10 PM)
Mass riots are coming if the UK leaves the EU too.
Yes, maybe, by people who can't accept the result of a referendum.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 10:16 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:07 PM)
Rory Stewart has just announced that he's not defending his seat at the next election.
They do that they kill the Conservative Party.
Imagine being the Prime Minister to boot out Churchill's grandson out of the Tory Party. Gonna turn out a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 3rd September 2019, 10:19 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:14 PM)
Yes, maybe, by people who can't accept the result of a referendum.
Ooh, creepy.
Yes, imagine not accepting the result of a referendum run by lies and illegal dark money, that was only advisory in the first place!
Not to mention the fact that it was the second referendum anyway. Everyone that wanted to not be in the EU should have shut up and sat down after 1979, they lost, get over it!
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 10:26 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 3 2019, 11:19 PM)
Ooh, creepy.
Yes, imagine not accepting the result of a referendum run by lies and illegal dark money, that was only advisory in the first place!
Not to mention the fact that it was the second referendum anyway. Everyone that wanted to not be in the EU should have shut up and sat down after 1979, they lost, get over it!
Leave won.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 10:28 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 10:42 PM)
Well I've given up on us ever leaving the EU now. Callers to LBC are telling the Govt. to ready the body bags as mass riots are coming if no deal is blocked tomorrow. Everyone who voted out has been made a fool of.
I just don't know what MP's want. They rejected May's deal and will probably reject no deal this week. Didn't the EU says tell us what you do want and get back to us. We're the laughing stock of Europe.
Yes riots by brexshitters who can't accept the result of the referendum.
52 v 48 split decision, 2 v 2 nations split decision, 20% youth support on a long term devision, leave fined by breaking the law, leave using Nazi propaganda and lying about the NHS and STILL not getting above a minor "win", EU citizens not able to vote, under 18s not able to vote, with leave CAMPAIGNING FOR A NROWAY SINGLE MARKET MODEL AND THEN TURNING AROUND AND CLAIMING IT WAS NOD EAL ALL ALONG. IT. f***ING. WASN'T.
Soo yeah. THAT result. Remain won, you lost, get over it. We're cowering in our boots about the fascists we destroyed in the past MULTIPLE TIMES and old people on their zimmer frames
Posted by: Botchia 3rd September 2019, 10:29 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:07 PM)
Rory Stewart has just announced that he's not defending his seat at the next election.
He hasn't...in fact, he's done the opposite
Posted by: Rooney 3rd September 2019, 10:29 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:26 PM)
Leave won.
Leave won on the mandate of being able to secure great trade deals.
I’m fine with us leaving, just not with No Deal. It’s absolutely stupid. There is no way Johnson is ever getting a new deal with the EU when he can’t ecen pass legislation through his own country.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 10:31 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 3 2019, 11:16 PM)
They do that they kill the Conservative Party.
Imagine being the Prime Minister to boot out Churchill's grandson out of the Tory Party. Gonna turn out a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Turkeys voting for Christmas is people voting for the landed gentey Tory party in the first place
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 3rd September 2019, 10:32 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:26 PM)
Leave won.
It didn't.
Posted by: Common Sense 3rd September 2019, 11:21 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 11:32 PM)
It didn't.
Oh stop being so pedantic.
You know leave won. Haven't you heard that May's been negotiating our exit with the EU since 2017? Why would she do that if remain had won? Maybe you think if you say it enough times it'll come true. I do think if there's a second referendum Remain will win though.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 12:20 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 3 2019, 11:21 PM)
Oh stop being so pedantic.
You know leave won. Haven't you heard that May's been negotiating our exit with the EU since 2017? Why would she do that if remain had won? Maybe you think if you say it enough times it'll come true. I do think if there's a second referendum Remain will win though.
This pretty much sums it up for you doesn't it? "won" "lose". It's just a game.
Oh still waiting on your reply to what others have said about Boris blocking Mays "reasonable"(as you put it) deal 3 times and thus very much contributing to the mess we are in now.
I suspect you'll just slither away from replying to that one though because you know it's a valid point huh?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 12:36 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 12:21 AM)
Oh stop being so pedantic.
You know leave won. Haven't you heard that May's been negotiating our exit with the EU since 2017? Why would she do that if remain had won? Maybe you think if you say it enough times it'll come true. I do think if there's a second referendum Remain will win though.
Long term decision.
You need major votes for major change. The end.
Posted by: Izzy 4th September 2019, 01:04 AM
Minority government. Losing his first vote. Pushing on with unworkable and self-destructive policies. Deselecting any MP who stands against him. It's a train-wreck. Very well done to all of the Conservatives who stood up against Johnson for the good of the country.
Posted by: Klaus 4th September 2019, 06:12 AM
It’s seemingly a way to get rid of the rebels from his party and replace them with Brexiteers at the upcoming election. Whether it’ll be as smooth sailing as that, I’m not sure.
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 06:24 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 3 2019, 05:31 PM)
Well then let's put it to the vote! Btw, we are FAAAR FAAAR closer to Europe geographically, militarily and are historically and economically INTERTWINED with Europe. Sorry. You are after pink unicorns
We're a lot closer, geographically, to Washington than Hawaii is.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 07:02 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 07:24 AM)
We're a lot closer, geographically, to Washington than Hawaii is.
And its people have American nationality, not Hawaiian. I thought you wanted to be British, just like you are at the moment.
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 07:15 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 3 2019, 05:13 PM)
Given the choice, I'd prefer being part of the USA than the EU.
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 08:02 AM)
And its people have American nationality, not Hawaiian. I thought you wanted to be British, just like you are at the moment.
I do, but as you can see from what I've quoted above, I said I'd *prefer* the USA, to the EU - but that's a purely hypothetical situation anyway.
Posted by: blacksquare 4th September 2019, 07:26 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 08:15 AM)
I do, but as you can see from what I've quoted above, I said I'd *prefer* the USA, to the EU - but that's a purely hypothetical situation anyway.
Why would you prefer that?
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 07:30 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 4 2019, 08:26 AM)
Why would you prefer that?
Are you kidding me - after all my posts here you can't figure it out?
Posted by: blacksquare 4th September 2019, 07:38 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 08:30 AM)
Are you kidding me - after all my posts here you can't figure it out?
I’m not kidding — enlighten me.
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 07:45 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 4 2019, 08:38 AM)
I’m not kidding — enlighten me.
Well, being one of the few Brexit supporters here, I'm obviously not too keen on Britain being politically linked to Europe
- IMO the best way to put our economic interests first, is to only have *trading* links to Europe (as in the original Common Market), not social & political links.
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 08:13 AM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Sep 4 2019, 07:12 AM)
It’s seemingly a way to get rid of the rebels from his party and replace them with Brexiteers at the upcoming election. Whether it’ll be as smooth sailing as that, I’m not sure.
Yeah so it’s basically going to kill the Conservative Party. Sure they might be able to push through Brexit, but they have basically become the Brexit Party. In the same way nobody really wants a true left wing government (sorry Michael) nobody really wants a full on right-wing government. Expelling the party of moderates (and the few moderates that are career driven so scared to vote against their own personal views) is a ridiculous move.
Boris could be over as prime minister before he’s even started.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 4th September 2019, 08:26 AM
Days before first defeats in office:
Attlee: 1707
Churchill: 747
Wilson: 385
Heath: 675
Callaghan: 84
Thatcher: 1321
Major: 831
Blair: 2929
Brown: 672
Cameron: 574
May: 462
Johnson: 42
Lawl
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 08:35 AM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Sep 4 2019, 09:26 AM)
Days before first defeats in office:
Attlee: 1707
Churchill: 747
Wilson: 385
Heath: 675
Callaghan: 84
Thatcher: 1321
Major: 831
Blair: 2929
Brown: 672
Cameron: 574
May: 462
Johnson: 42
Lawl
Correlates best to the size of their majority, rather than their party affiliation or personality.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:22 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 08:45 AM)
Well, being one of the few Brexit supporters here, I'm obviously not too keen on Britain being politically linked to Europe
- IMO the best way to put our economic interests first, is to only have *trading* links to Europe (as in the original Common Market), not social & political links.
Lololol pink unicorns. The UK is intrinsically linked culturally and socially to Europe and always has been. Sorry. Next!
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 09:32 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 06:24 AM)
We're a lot closer, geographically, to Washington than Hawaii is.
What a basis for an argument.
We're infinitely closer to Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels, Madrid than we are to Washington OR Hawaii.
Posted by: vidcapper 4th September 2019, 09:37 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:22 AM)
Lololol pink unicorns. The UK is intrinsically linked culturally and socially to Europe and always has been. Sorry. Next!
'Always'? We've been at war with many European countries for much of the last 1000 years.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:52 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 10:37 AM)
'Always'? We've been at war with many European countries for much of the last 1000 years.
Ans been invaded. And invaded. Just look at our language - half romance, half Germanic, Old English developing through Old Norse snd then later French intoMiddle English! Social and cultural bonds run deep. Our economies are tied together. So is our past and so is our future - intrinsically linked. Sorry
Posted by: blacksquare 4th September 2019, 10:40 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 4 2019, 10:37 AM)
'Always'? We've been at war with many European countries for much of the last 1000 years.
What about the last 70+ years? What changed?
Posted by: blacksquare 4th September 2019, 11:45 AM
That was the best performance I have seen from Corbyn. Boris truly is an amateur.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 11:51 AM
Link??
Posted by: Izzy 4th September 2019, 11:57 AM
'much of the last 1000 years' is misleading. There were periods of relative war (Thirty Years/Napoleonic/World Wars) and relative peace created by new agreements in cooperation (Westphalia/Congress of Vienna/now what is that last one). Major wars would, speaking generally, only happen once the last horrific conflict was out of living memory. There were people in the Edwardian Indian Summer (a little nickname for that period as it was so peaceful for Britain) scoffing at the idea of war in Europe. It can happen again and one should be thankful that there is an organisation encouraging cross-cultural contact across a continent to make it less likely, and wish it every success.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 04:33 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 4 2019, 12:45 PM)
That was the best performance I have seen from Corbyn. Boris truly is an amateur.
I don't think either particularly stood out and watched it live. Was pretty even.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 04:50 PM
Johnson has been defeated again today. Has he won a vote yet?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 05:06 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 05:33 PM)
I don't think either particularly stood out and watched it live. Was pretty even.
Lolololol. It wasn't. You are so so so so soooo BIASED TOWARDS THE TORIES, doffing your cap to your masters, that if you think it was even, you can be 100% SURE Corbyn wiped the floor with thay blustering bumbling buffoon. And he did. Johnson was ATROCIOUS.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 05:19 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 05:06 PM)
Lolololol. It wasn't. You are so so so so soooo BIASED TOWARDS THE TORIES, doffing your cap to your masters, that if you think it was rven, you can be 100% SURE Corbyn wiped the floor with thay blustering bumbling buffoon. And he did. Johnson was ATROCIOUS.
I agree. I'm no big fan of Corbyn these days but he was collected, yet still passionate and raise very VERY good points, whilst still showing the frustration and anger that any opposition would be showing at this point. Johnson was flustered, rattled, dodged ALL of the questions Corbyn put to him and completely threw his toys out of the pram. He made Theresa May look half way competent.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 05:22 PM
Worst pm EVER. Cameron and Mad May found relieved and laughing.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 4th September 2019, 06:56 PM
Banter era stuff - Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement is back on the legislative agenda, seemingly by accident:
Posted by: Bré 4th September 2019, 06:58 PM
Apparently the government didn't provide tellers to count the no votes so the amendment went through automatically. I... am truly shocked that this is something that is even possible? That seems like something that could be used for some extremely nefarious purposes? (Arguably this is that already, although the WA will just be rejected again anyway so it's ultimately pointless).
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 4th September 2019, 07:08 PM
Well, quite!
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 07:23 PM
It's all a proper mess isn't it? May'd Deal might actually get through afterall.. with a backstop!!!
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 07:30 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 4 2019, 07:56 PM)
Banter era stuff - Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement is back on the legislative agenda, seemingly by accident:
So that's three votes he's lost. No wonder he wants to prorogue parliament - it's his best chance of avoiding beating May's record by the end of the month.
Posted by: Bré 4th September 2019, 07:45 PM
It seems he wanted this amendment to get through.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:13 PM
QUOTE(Bré @ Sep 4 2019, 08:45 PM)
It seems he wanted this amendment to get through.
It wouldn't be a surprise. The government used the same tactic under Theresa May; they failed to proved tellers to avoid the embarrassment of losing a real vote. They then just brushed it off and insisted it didn't matter.
I said a few years ago that Johnson would want to call an election almost immediately if he became PM due to a leadership change. It always seemed likely that he would want to get an election out of the way before too many people realised what an appalling individual he is. Let's hope he's already too late for that.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:24 PM
Sad evening for all us who voted for Brexit. I'll never ever vote in an election or referendum again. What's the point when the result is trampled on by MP's? We'll never leave now and it's not May or Boris's fault. I hope all you Remainers are satisfied and all your taxes go up steeply with the inflated amounts we'll have to pay the EU in years to come.
My wife voted OUT and hasn't paid much attention to the news since but can't understand why we're still in after 3 years. Told her it's angry remainers conspiring to keep us in.
Posted by: Klaus 4th September 2019, 08:26 PM
Not even worth dignifying that with a comment
Posted by: Miss Americana 4th September 2019, 08:27 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:24 PM)
I have never paid a penny tax in my life.
We know...
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:30 PM
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems, but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome. Let May's deal come back once more and get it passed or sack the lot of them. We're paying them almost 80k a year for this fiasco.
Posted by: Kath 4th September 2019, 08:31 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:30 PM)
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome.
Oh go and boil your head Chris!
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:31 PM
QUOTE(Miss Americana @ Sep 4 2019, 08:27 PM)
We know...
You beat me to it!
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:33 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 4 2019, 09:31 PM)
Oh go and boil your head Chris!
Tell me why you don't want to respect the result of the referendum. If remain had won I'd happily accept that outcome.
I feel so sorry for Boris. He's tried his best to get us out, as did May and been royally shafted by MP's.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:36 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 08:30 PM)
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems, but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome. Let May's deal come back once more and get it passed or sack the lot of them. We're paying them almost 80k a year for this fiasco.
So you´re upset? GOOD. Now you know how we have felt for the last THREE YEARS, having ACCEPTED the result(before you even go there with the whole "you lost" bollocks) but having to watch our inept government trying to divorce us from the EU in the most extreme way possible whilst claiming that 17.4 million voters are fine with no deal, demonstrating that they neither care nor have the best interests of the nation at heart.
Not a nice feeling is it?
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 08:37 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:24 PM)
Sad evening for all us who voted for Brexit.
I'll never ever vote in an election or referendum again. What's the point when the result is trampled on by MP's? We'll never leave now and it's not May or Boris's fault. I hope all you Remainers are satisfied and all your taxes go up steeply with the inflated amounts we'll have to pay the EU in years to come.
My wife voted OUT and hasn't paid much attention to the news since but can't understand why we're still in after 3 years. Told her it's angry remainers conspiring to keep us in.
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:30 PM)
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome.
Oh come on Chris, while there are plenty of people who want to stop Brexit there are plenty of people who know we need to deliver Brexit. I do not understand what the big issue is around offering a 2nd referendum which at least outlines some plausible options. Everything we knew in the original referendum is not what was delivered.
People want Brexit done- if we get Brexit done and leave does that sort out Brexit? Nope. For the next 12 months all that will be on the news will be the outcome of delivering Brexit. I can understand Brexiteers frutrations and I do sympathise a lot, but just wanting a pure idelogically no deal just to deliver Brexit is stupid. Many people who voted for the bill yesterday actually voted FOR the original Withdrawl Agreement, so it's nothing to do with stopping Brexit, it's all to do with not allowing us to destroy our encomy and take years and years to get it back together.
It is not there may be problems, there
will be problems. And major ones as someone who knows what a major business plan looks like...
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:38 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:36 PM)
So you´re upset? GOOD. Now you know how we have felt for the last THREE YEARS, having ACCEPTED the result(before you even go there with the whole "you lost" bollocks) but having to watch our inept government trying to divorce us from the EU in the most extreme way possible whilst claiming that 17.4 million voters are fine with no deal.
Not a nice feeling is it?
You've never accepted the result. Go and post as a Brexiteer on Mumsnet and see what happens. Have been abused no end there and told I need locking up in a mental asylum.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:39 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 4 2019, 09:37 PM)
Oh come on Chris, while there are plenty of people who want to stop Brexit there are plenty of people who know we need to deliver Brexit. I do not understand what the big issue is around offering a 2nd referendum which at least outlines some plausible options. Everything we knew in the original referendum is not what was delivered.
People want Brexit done- if we get Brexit done and leave does that sort out Brexit? Nope. For the next 12 months all that will be on the news will be the outcome of delivering Brexit. I can understand Brexiteers frutrations and I do sympathise a lot, but just wanting a pure idelogically no deal just to deliver Brexit is stupid. Many people who voted for the bill yesterday actually voted FOR the original Withdrawl Agreement, so it's nothing to do with stopping Brexit, it's all to do with not allowing us to destroy our encomy and take years and years to get it back together.
It is not there may be problems, there will be problems. And major ones as someone who knows what a major business plan looks like...
I don't mind a 2nd referendum although I fully think it would give a remain result.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:40 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:30 PM)
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems, but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome. Let May's deal come back once more and get it passed or sack the lot of them. We're paying them almost 80k a year for this fiasco.
You do realise that the price of those cans includes quite a lot of tax?
Oh, and how come you still haven't accepted that the referendum was only advisory? The result placed no obligations whatsoever on anybody.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:41 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 08:38 PM)
You've never accepted the result. Go and post as a Brexiteer on Mumsnet and see what happens. Have been abused no end there and told I need locking up in a mental asylum.
How dare you. I have ALWAYS accepted that we have to leave. What I ABSOLUTELY object to is the utterly reckless and damaging that way that our government are going about it, ruining small businesses(like my Dads), creating uncertainty and damaging lives and the welfare of people the process. So don´t put words in my mouth - THANK YOU.
Posted by: TheSnake 4th September 2019, 08:41 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:30 PM)
Sorry, am just upset and have had to buy 3 cans of K to drown my sorrows. I don't particularly want no deal, admit that there may be problems but it's just dragging on and on and on. I'll be dead without knowing the outcome.
Come on Chris, it's not worth worrying
that much about it. You just have to accept the way things are, that Brexit more likely than not, won't happen (or if it does happen it will be a Brexit in name only probably), because the negotiations with the EU just didn't work out and no deal is seen as too risky for most parliamentary MPs (and probably most people in the UK general public) to want to risk.
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 08:43 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:39 PM)
I don't mind a 2nd referendum although I fully think it would give a remain result.
It might do, it might not- who knows without a vote!
There was so many original lies told in the original campaign, I'm sure people from both sides have changed their tune. My main problem is No Deal, it's a terrible idea and don't let anyone ever tell you it's a good one.
Be interesting to see what happens next- I genuinely have no idea.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:43 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:41 PM)
How dare you. I have ALWAYS accepted that we have to leave. What I ABSOLUTELY object to is the utterly reckless and damaging that way that our government are going about it, ruining small businesses, creating uncertainty and damaging lives and the welfare of people the process. So don´t put words in my mouth - THANK YOU.
It's the EU that won't offer us a better deal though, admittedly because of May's red lines. I don't really want no deal but if that's how we have to leave then so be it. Doubt Boris or Cummings want no deal either. We don't really know what Corbyn wants. For an opposition to pass up an election chance is absurd.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:44 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:39 PM)
I don't mind a 2nd referendum although I fully think it would give a remain result.
So you accept that a majority of people now want to remain? Why, then, should the government go full steam ahead with an extreme form of Leave when most people would rather Remain?
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:45 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:44 PM)
So you accept that a majority of people now want to remain? Why, then, should the government go full steam ahead with an extreme form of Leave when most people would rather Remain?
Well because that was the result in 2016 and we haven't had a vote since.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:46 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:43 PM)
It's the EU that won't offer us a better deal though, admittedly because oy May's red lines. I don't really want no deal but if that's how we have to leave then so be it. Doubt Boris wants no deal.
Why should they offer us a better deal? It's not as if they voted to chuck us out. Besides, weren't we told that we would hold all the cards in the negotiations? How's that working out?
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:46 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 08:43 PM)
It's the EU that won't offer us a better deal though, admittedly because oy May's red lines. I don't really want no deal but if that's how we have to leave then so be it. Doubt Boris wants no deal.
Why should they? We chose to leave. They are absolutely not obligated to. If they offered us an amazing deal then countries across the block would be having referendums. They are going to act in the interest of their 27 remaining members. Why can´t leavers get their heads around this BASIC FACT.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:48 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:45 PM)
Well because that was the result in 2016 and we haven't had a vote since.
But wouldn't it be a good idea to check before going ahead with something so drastic? It's not as if the Leave campaign exactly provided anything resembling a detailed plan in the referendum. A narrow majority voted, in an advisory referendum, for an ill-defined concept. Now that we know more, why not see what the electorate want?
Posted by: TheSnake 4th September 2019, 08:49 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:43 PM)
Doubt Boris or Cummings want no deal either.
With Boris its Conservative Party strategy more than what he 'wants'. Of course he wants to keep the Conservative Party in power. He realises the only option is to go down this Hard Brexit route to try to, so he can reclaim support from the Brexit Party.
Posted by: Klaus 4th September 2019, 08:50 PM
Crazy that people think a second election since the vote is more democratic as we ‘need to sort this situation’ rather than another referendum. It’s essentially just rethrowing the dice and hoping the number you need comes up.
If there is a clear mandate for leave, a referendum would not be an issue.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:50 PM
I´m not actually sure a 2nd referendum IS a good idea. The atmosphere across the country would be hideously toxic, and there is of course every possibility that leave would triumph again.
Posted by: Chez Wombat 4th September 2019, 08:51 PM
People voted to leave the EU. It was never stated that we would leave without a deal and half the country wanted to stay in anyway. Leaving without a deal is not by any definition the widely desired outcome and it has rightfully and democratically been stopped.
I'm an ardent remainer but I will gladly accept the result if time is taken to ensure we get the best deal with minimum damage to the economy, honestly at this stage, I think that would work better than cancelling Brexit (though in an ideal world, yes I would like that x). I'm not keen on a second referendum either as I can't imagine the result would be much different.
Posted by: TheSnake 4th September 2019, 08:52 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:50 PM)
I´m not actually sure a 2nd referendum IS a good idea. The atmosphere across the country would be hideously toxic, and there is of course every possibility that leave would triumph again.
I would say there is very little chance Leave would win in a second referendum.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:52 PM
QUOTE(Chez Wombat @ Sep 4 2019, 08:51 PM)
I'm an ardent remainer but I will gladly accept the result if time is taken to ensure we get the best deal with minimum damage to the economy honestly at this stage, I think that would work better than cancelling Brexit and mass riots providing it's done right.
THANK YOU. THIS.
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 08:53 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:50 PM)
I´m not actually sure a 2nd referendum IS a good idea. The atmosphere across the country would be hideously toxic, and there is of course every possibility that leave would triumph again.
I don't think it matters at this stage.
Leave Brexit with No Deal - civil unrest (probably longer term) - probably from both sides when people realise they can't buy even simple medication
2nd Referendum - civil unrest (probably very short term)
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 08:53 PM
QUOTE(Chez Wombat @ Sep 4 2019, 09:51 PM)
People voted to leave to EU. It was never stated that we would leave without a deal and half the country wanted to stay in anyway. Leaving without a deal is not by any definition the widely desired outcome and it has rightfully and democratically been stopped.
I'm an ardent remainer but I will gladly accept the result if time is taken to ensure we get the best deal with minimum damage to the economy honestly at this stage, I think that would work better than cancelling Brexit as much as I'd like that.
But there is no form of leaving that won't cause economic damage. The thought of what will happen when millions of Leave voters realise that leaving is not the panacea they were led to believe it will be is positively frightening.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:55 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 4 2019, 08:53 PM)
I don't think it matters at this stage.
Leave Brexit with No Deal - civil unrest (probably longer term) - probably from both sides when people realise they can't buy even simple medication
2nd Referendum - civil unrest (probably very short term)
Fair point.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 08:57 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 08:53 PM)
But there is no form of leaving that won't cause economic damage. The thought of what will happen when millions of Leave voters realise that leaving is not the panacea they were led to believe it will be is positively frightening.
Frustratingly I think a lot of them will still lay the blame with the EU.
I find as a nation we tend to be incredibly stubborn and don´t like to admit when we are wrong, even in grim circumstances.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 08:59 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 09:40 PM)
Oh, and how come you still haven't accepted that the referendum was only advisory? The result placed no obligations whatsoever on anybody.
Was that made clear to the voters though? My OH says she never knew that and people I've told say they never knew that either.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:00 PM
QUOTE(TheSnake @ Sep 4 2019, 09:52 PM)
I would say there is very little chance Leave would win in a second referendum.
Agreed. Remain would get a very clear majority imo, more than 10 points.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:01 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:59 PM)
Was that made clear to the voters though? My OH says she never knew that and people I've told say they never knew that either.
That doesn't alter the fact that parliament voted to hold an advisory referendum. The fact that the Leave-supporting press all somehow forgot to report that doesn't make it less of a fact.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:02 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 4 2019, 09:53 PM)
I don't think it matters at this stage.
Leave Brexit with No Deal - civil unrest (probably longer term) - probably from both sides when people realise they can't buy even simple medication
2nd Referendum - civil unrest (probably very short term)
I very much doubt there'd be civil unrest with a no deal. I think there may be when a lot of Brexiteers see that we're not leaving and get angry and frustrated. Glad we don't live near a High St with a lot of shops.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:03 PM
Now we're having a proper debate without name calling. As it should be. Where's Kath?
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:04 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:00 PM)
Agreed. Remain would get a very clear majority imo, more than 10 points.
Which surely suggests that a sensible government would abandon the whole nonsense - possibly after holding a referendum to give them an excuse. Doesn't that make you wonder whether Johnson and his cronies might have another reason for wanting to leave?
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:05 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 10:01 PM)
That doesn't alter the fact that parliament voted to hold an advisory referendum. The fact that the Leave-supporting press all somehow forgot to report that doesn't make it less of a fact.
I agree. Should have maybe been printed in big letters on the top of each ballot form!
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:05 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:02 PM)
I very much doubt there'd be civil unrest with a no deal. I think there may be when a lot of Brexiteers see that we're not leaving and get angry and frustrated. Glad we don't live near a High St with a lot of shops.
If the government's own assessment of the impact of No Deal is even half correct, there is a very high risk of civil unrest.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:06 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 10:04 PM)
Which surely suggests that a sensible government would abandon the whole nonsense - possibly after holding a referendum to give them an excuse. Doesn't that make you wonder whether Johnson and his cronies might have another reason for wanting to leave?
Well they would abandon it if a 2nd vote was clearly for remain. Any Government would.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:07 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:05 PM)
I agree. Should have maybe been printed in big letters on the top of each ballot form!
I'm not sure the Electoral Commission would have accepted that but they may have accepted a reference to the advisory nature somewhere.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:07 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:24 PM)
Sad evening for all us who voted for Brexit.
I'll never ever vote in an election or referendum again. What's the point when the result is trampled on by MP's? We'll never leave now and it's not May or Boris's fault. I hope all you Remainers are satisfied and all your taxes go up steeply with the inflated amounts we'll have to pay the EU in years to come.
My wife voted OUT and hasn't paid much attention to the news since but can't understand why we're still in after 3 years. Told her it's angry remainers conspiring to keep us in.
Me wantz me bwexit waaaa
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:09 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:33 PM)
Tell me why you don't want to respect the result of the referendum. If remain had won I'd happily accept that outcome.
I feel so sorry for Boris. He's tried his best to get us out, as did May and been royally shafted by MP's.
51% 2 nations 20% youth support, or 28% of rhe population IS NOT ENOUGH FOR MAJOR LONG LASTING CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE!!!
Why don't you respect the result of the FIRST RRFERENDUM?? Why are you demanding we accept a second referendum to overturn it? The first referendum had 70%. A super majority. We won, you lost. Get over it. Why don't tou respect the result in Scotland and NI?
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:09 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:06 PM)
Well they would abandon it if a 2nd vote was clearly for remain. Any Government would.
That's the point. If they wanted to abandon it, they would hold another referendum in the expectation that Remain would win - probably by a higher margin than Leave's victory three years ago. Why, then are they still going ahead?
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 09:09 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:06 PM)
Well they would abandon it if a 2nd vote was clearly for remain. Any Government would.
DELETED: Suedehead pretty much asked Chris the same question as me. No need for me to parrot another poster.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:11 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:39 PM)
I don't mind a 2nd referendum although I fully think it would give a remain result.
So the will of the people is TO REMAIN.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:15 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:11 PM)
So the will of the people is TO REMAIN.
Well it may be now but wasn't in 2016.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:17 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:07 PM)
Me wantz me bwexit waaaa
Oh be quiet and debate as an adult as the rest of us are?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:17 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:15 PM)
Well it may be now but wasn't in 2016.
28% voted brexshit. It was a minority. Sorry
51% v 48, 2 nations v 2 nations, 20%. Again. That's just not enough.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:18 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:17 PM)
28% voted brexshit. It was a minority. Sorry
51% v 48, 2 nations v 2 nations, 20%. Again. That's just not enough.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:20 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:17 PM)
Oh be quiet and debate as an adult as the rest of us are?
Indeed. The last hour or two has seen a more measured discussion on this issue than we have seen for most of the last three years. Let's try and keep it that way.
Posted by: blacksquare 4th September 2019, 09:21 PM
I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen next. This is all so insane.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:21 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:17 PM)
Oh be quiet and debate as an adult as the rest of us are?
When your position is indefensible and just the equivalent of doffin your cap to the rich lords and masters of the manors and screaming about a brexshit you want because the papers told you you want it, there is no debate. Your position is laughable. A debate suggests equal sides.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:21 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 4 2019, 10:20 PM)
Indeed. The last hour or two has seen a more measured discussion on this issue than we have seen for most of the last three years. Let's try and keep it that way.
Yes I agree. Good intelligent debate and no name calling or abuse.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:22 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:21 PM)
When your position is indefensible and just the equivalent of doffin your cap to the rich lords and masters of the manors and screaming about a brexshit you want because the papers told you you want ot, there is no debate. Your position is laughable.
I have been open to discussion this last hour though and said maybe a 2nd referendum would clear the air.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:23 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 4 2019, 10:21 PM)
I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen next. This is all so insane.
Me neither. Wonder how Boris is sleeping at night.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:24 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:22 PM)
I have been open to discussion this last hour though and said maybe a 2nd referendum would clear the air.
Brexshit has destroyed the country. Thanks, Cameron and Murdoch! It will take a generation to heal.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:25 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:23 PM)
Me neither. Wonder how Boris is sleeping at night.
All that fat cat etonian CHARLATAN cares about is being pm. He doesn't give a shit.
Posted by: Envoirment 4th September 2019, 09:26 PM
It's quite hilarious that the same day they rolled out the election "propaganda" of ending austerity via the budget, Johnson loses a vote for an election. A good move by Labour - focusing on preventing a no deal first before having another GE.
There's only a few ways this mess will go, but thankfully a No Deal appears to be out of the question in the immediate future. The only thing that will really solve this is a second referendum. If remain win, Article 50 can be retracted. If leave win again, the government should approach brexit in a much more unified way and focus on leaving with the best deal/minimum damage possible - perhaps even asking for no deadline for that to be achieved. I can easily see brexit negotiations/trade negotiations lasting a decade or more unless the EU get fed up (not that they aren't already).
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:28 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:24 PM)
Brexshit has destroyed the country. Thanks, Cameron and Murdoch! It will take a generation to heal.
I would say most people don't really care that much about it and it won't be the decider of the next election. Someone on DS said that, a respected long-time poster and agree with him. Personality of the party leaders will be the decider more than policies. Some policies such as the economy, taxes, NHS etc may be important to some voters.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:29 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:25 PM)
All that fat cat etonian CHARLATAN cares about is being pm. He doesn't give a shit.
Would you want to be the shortest serving PM ever though? Could happen if he loses an autumn election.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 09:31 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 10:25 PM)
All that fat cat etonian CHARLATAN cares about is being pm. He doesn't give a shit.
Don't you like him?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:33 PM
Phillip Hammond declared the rnd of audterity TWICE before too Tories are the bighest liars in Europe.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 09:34 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:28 PM)
I would say most people don't really care that much about it and it won't be the decider of the next election. Someone on DS said that, a respected long-time poster and agree with him. Personality of the party leaders will be the decider more than policies. Some policies such as the economy, taxes, NHS etc may be important to some voters.
Then perhaps you'd be interested to know that the landed gentry party want to privatise the nhs?
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:35 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:28 PM)
I would say most people don't really care that much about it and it won't be the decider of the next election. Someone on DS said that, a respected long-time poster and agree with him. Personality of the party leaders will be the decider more than policies. Some policies such as the economy, taxes, NHS etc may be important to some voters.
Which is another reason why the last three years has been such a waste of time. Before Cameron suggested a referendum, EU membership was way down the list of priorities for most people. Yes, Farage and co. kept banging on about it, but most people didn't care either way. The referendum left a lot of Remain voters feeling pissed off with the near certainty that a lot of Leave voters would be equally pissed off when a Leave majority didn't deliver what they thought it would.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 09:36 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:29 PM)
Would you want to be the shortest serving PM ever though? Could happen if he loses an autumn election.
Well, he has always wanted a place in the history books
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 09:45 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:02 PM)
I very much doubt there'd be civil unrest with a no deal. I think there may be when a lot of Brexiteers see that we're not leaving and get angry and frustrated. Glad we don't live near a High St with a lot of shops.
There would be civil unrest. Lots of small businesses have not planned for the eventualties. Lots of the big food and beverage companies, especially ones that have confectionery as a major category don't have the warehouse space for extra stock as they are at full capacity ready for seasonal items. An extra 2 minutes of delays in Callis could lead to 17 miles of traffic. People stranded, waiting hours to get through border control. Unable to have access to basic medication such as paracetamol and that's without even thinking other kinds of life saving medicine. You can mitigate all the risk you want, but it does not stop it from happening.
If people are dying because they cannot get a flu jab or access to insulin (which plausibly could happen) then it will lead to unrest. People fighting in the shops over products. I mean nloody hell I'm sure it was only last year when KFC couldn't deliver chicken for a week and the whole country went nuts
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 10:05 PM
I still think Boris has something up his sleeve. Some DS posters, right at the end of his exchange with Corbyn tonight, heard him say "let's see what happens in the next few days" under his breath. The Attorney-General was seen entering No.10 late tonight after darkness. Maybe Boris has another ace card to still play.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 4th September 2019, 10:07 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:02 PM)
I very much doubt there'd be civil unrest with a no deal. I think there may be when a lot of Brexiteers see that we're not leaving and get angry and frustrated. Glad we don't live near a High St with a lot of shops.
Yeah, so little chance of civil unrest when the shops are empty of food, people are trying to stockpile loo roll and medicine and everyone in the country knows EXACTLY who is to blame.
What stops people committing crimes? What about when they have nothing left to lose?
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 10:10 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 4 2019, 11:07 PM)
Yeah, so little chance of civil unrest when the shops are empty of food, people are trying to stockpile loo roll and medicine and everyone in the country knows EXACTLY who is to blame.
What stops people committing crimes? What about when they have nothing left to lose?
How do you know shops would be empty? The supermarkets have had weeks to plan for this and huge warehouses to stockpile cans etc. Okay maybe a few exotic fruits and vag that hardle anyone buys may be in short supply but plenty of Heinz beans and Spam available.
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 10:15 PM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 4 2019, 11:07 PM)
Yeah, so little chance of civil unrest when the shops are empty of food, people are trying to stockpile loo roll and medicine and everyone in the country knows EXACTLY who is to blame.
What stops people committing crimes? What about when they have nothing left to lose?
We have already stockpiled loo roll, bleach, beans, soup, canned meat and fish, canned veg and fruit, coffee, teabags, evaporated milk, bottled water. Anyone sensible would also have done so, especially if they have a wholesalers card like we do for Costco and Makro.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 10:17 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:10 PM)
How do you know shops would be empty? The supermarkets have had weeks to plan for this and huge warehouses to stockpile cans etc. Okay maybe a few exotic fruits and vag that hardle anyone buys may be in short supply but plenty of Heinz beans and Spam available.
GROSS. NO ONE WANTS TO EAT SPAM AND HEINZ. PUT THAT ON THE SIDE OF A BUS. YOU CAN LIVE YOUR BLITZ SPIRIT FANTASIES ON AN ABANDONED ISLAND.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 10:18 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:15 PM)
We have already stockpiled loo roll, bleach, beans, soup, canned meat and fish, canned veg and fruit, coffee, teabags, evaporated milk, bottled water. Anyone sensible would also have done so, especially if they have a wholesalers card like we do for Costco and Makro.
Anyone sensible would see how utterly ABSURD no deal is. (It also has no mandate and neither does a hard brexshit bye.)
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 10:19 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 4 2019, 11:17 PM)
GROSS. NO ONE WANTS TO EAT SPAM AND HEINZ. PUT THAT ON THE SIDE OF A BUS. YOU CAN LIVE YOUR BLITZ SPIRIT FANTASIES ON AN ABANDONED ISLAND.
Baked beans are very good for you. Fibre and protein and you can buy low sugar and salt.
Posted by: Rooney 4th September 2019, 10:19 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:10 PM)
How do you know shops would be empty? The supermarkets have had weeks to plan for this and huge warehouses to stockpile cans etc. Okay maybe a few exotic fruits and vag that hardle anyone buys may be in short supply but plenty of Heinz beans and Spam available.
Chris, without wanting to sound like I am fixing a broken record, I work for a very large food and beverage industry player, so as such I have more knowledge than others. Lots of companies have huge warehouses but do you know what pretty much every big company is crying out for and has been crying out for for a long time? More warehouse space. There is a lack of available space available in the UK. AjAnd if you don't own it, do you know what is expensive to rent off an logistics firm? yep, warehouse space.
We are coming up to Christmas time, you start your Christmas strategy 18 months before Christmas. There are tons of seasonal items already in storage, Christmas is the biggest time of the year for the food and beverage manufactuing industry, a load of this extra space is already taken for seasonal stock and not everyday household items! Who supplies Tesco and Sainsburys with Heinz baked beans? Kraft. Do you know what warehouse space Kraft has available? This is the fantasy land that No Dealers have, I bet you not a clue of them have any idea how a supply chain works. To then produce extra tonnage you've got to work with the factories to produce the goods. But the lines can only work so fast as well- there are so many different variables at play here.
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th September 2019, 10:22 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:10 PM)
How do you know shops would be empty? The supermarkets have had weeks to plan for this and huge warehouses to stockpile cans etc. Okay maybe a few exotic fruits and vag that hardle anyone buys may be in short supply but plenty of Heinz beans and Spam available.
Warehouses are already being used to stockpile goods for Christmas. Besides, if government policy leads to retailers feeling the need for stockpiling, doesn't that suggest that government policy might possibly be wrong?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 10:24 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:19 PM)
Baked beans are very good for you. Fibre and protein and you can buy low sugar and salt.
Oh LORD.
Also thr UK is a TINY ISLAND. Where is this stockpiling going to happen? How will enough food be grown when there isn't enough space?
Posted by: Steve201 4th September 2019, 10:47 PM
On another note what a great speech by Tanmanjeet Dhesi in the commons today commenting about Johnsons rascist remarks about people who wear turbans - got a round of applause and he still wouldn't apologise!
Posted by: Common Sense 4th September 2019, 11:06 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 4 2019, 11:47 PM)
On another note what a great speech by Tanmanjeet Dhesi in the commons today commenting about Johnsons rascist remarks about people who wear turbans - got a round of applause and he still wouldn't apologise!
Who is Tanmanjet Dhesi? Have never heard of him!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 4th September 2019, 11:08 PM
I thought you said you watched PMQ? He was one of MANY who destroyed your Eton millionaire idol.
Posted by: mald487 4th September 2019, 11:43 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 10:10 PM)
Okay maybe a few exotic fruits and vag that hardle anyone buys may be in short supply but plenty of Heinz beans and Spam available.
I'm not to keen on vag anyway so no loss.
Posted by: Kath 5th September 2019, 06:31 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 09:33 PM)
Tell me why you don't want to respect the result of the referendum. If remain had won I'd happily accept that outcome.
I feel so sorry for Boris. He's tried his best to get us out, as did May and been royally shafted by MP's.
I didn't want us to leave the EU as I don't want us to be the 'sick man of Europe'. Having said that - I have nothing against us leaving and abiding by the will of circa 27% of the population - but NOT WITHOUT A DEAL!!!! That is what you mad-arsed Brexiteers don't understand!
Feel sorry for Boris if you like Chris - but he wouldn't piss on the likes of you if you were on fire!
Having said that - people like you Chris will always find a way around any system to get as much from the system as you possibly can for as little effort!
Can someone here tell me if there is still an ignore button on BJ - I cannot bear to look at all the trolling sh/te that Chris posts!
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 06:47 AM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 5 2019, 07:31 AM)
Can someone here tell me if there is still an ignore button on BJ - I cannot bear to look at all the trolling sh/te that Chris posts.
Don't think there is one.
Posted by: Izzy 5th September 2019, 07:08 AM
Edit Profile and head down to ‘Manage Ignored Users’ on the left, that’ll be what you’re looking for.
Posted by: vidcapper 5th September 2019, 09:19 AM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 5 2019, 08:08 AM)
Edit Profile and head down to ‘Manage Ignored Users’ on the left, that’ll be what you’re looking for.
It's a wonder posters here don't do that for all us Brexiters, to avoid the fact that not everyone loves the EU.
Seriously though, I think my chart sales threads save me from that fate...
Posted by: Izzy 5th September 2019, 09:24 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 4 2019, 11:45 AM)
That was the best performance I have seen from Corbyn. Boris truly is an amateur.
Interesting stat I've seen, Corbyn yesterday overtook Thatcher as the Leader of the Opposition with most defeats of the government, 41 to Thatcher's 40, both over a 4-year period. Helps to be against their ineptness but who's ineffective opposition now. I feel as if Campaign Corbyn is beginning to emerge, which will be good for any potential general.
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 4 2019, 10:47 PM)
On another note what a great speech by Tanmanjeet Dhesi in the commons today commenting about Johnsons rascist remarks about people who wear turbans - got a round of applause and he still wouldn't apologise!
Very much so, impressed by that speech and it just highlights what an awful person we have sitting in our highest political office. The last couple of days have been really illuminating I hope, for a good proportion of people.
incidentally, if anyone is a fan of gaming-esque shitposting AND politics (unusual combo but I am), there's now an unofficial https://www.twitch.tv/ukparliament, complete with irreverent memes and Bercow ORDAH emotes. Also a very easy way for me to find livestreams so I hope they don't crack down on it.
Posted by: mald487 5th September 2019, 09:32 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 4 2019, 11:06 PM)
Who is Tanmanjet Dhesi? Have never heard of him!
An MP who made a speech last night asking when Boris would apologize for some of the racist remarks he has made towards ethnic minorities(he HAS Chris...google is your friend).
Boris didn't apologize making himself look like a bigger prick than he already is.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 09:55 AM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 5 2019, 10:24 AM)
Interesting stat I've seen, Corbyn yesterday overtook Thatcher as the Leader of the Opposition with most defeats of the government, 41 to Thatcher's 40, both over a 4-year period. Helps to be against their ineptness but who's ineffective opposition now. I feel as if Campaign Corbyn is beginning to emerge, which will be good for any potential general.
Very much so, impressed by that speech and it just highlights what an awful person we have sitting in our highest political office. The last couple of days have been really illuminating I hope, for a good proportion of people.
incidentally, if anyone is a fan of gaming-esque shitposting AND politics (unusual combo but I am), there's now an unofficial https://www.twitch.tv/ukparliament, complete with irreverent memes and Bercow ORDAH emotes. Also a very easy way for me to find livestreams so I hope they don't crack down on it.
The media also laughed at Thatcher and called her unelectable. Ours did that with Corbyn, but then grew terrified and has attacked him with ridiculpus slanders and lies ever since.
Posted by: vidcapper 5th September 2019, 10:03 AM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 5 2019, 10:32 AM)
An MP who made a speech last night asking when Boris would apologize for some of the racist remarks he has made towards ethnic minorities(he HAS Chris...google is your friend).
At least those were actual racist remarks he complained about, rather than innocuous ones taken out of context/ones made in what should have been a private setting.
QUOTE
Boris didn't apologize making himself look like a bigger prick than he already is.
Something like 'I'm sorry for making you think I'm a bigger prick than you thought I was', perhaps?
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 10:29 AM
How do you spin that?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 10:31 AM
OH MY GOD.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 10:35 AM
The BBTory will havr a hard time makin this about Corbyn or spinning it positively! Maybe they'll run the angle of, a rebellious mp has gone, meaning Johnson can get a sycophant in. Yay go him! They might just conveniently ignore the fact that he is his brother.
Posted by: Suedehead2 5th September 2019, 10:37 AM
So the first minister to quit under Johnson is his own brother. How embarrassing.
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 10:39 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 5 2019, 11:37 AM)
So the first minister to quit under Johnson is his own brother. How embarrassing.
Delicious.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 10:44 AM
According to cnn the ratings for the parliament channel are rivalling that of Bake Off?! Trump would be proud. That's all he cares about.
"It was the biggest single-day audience for the channel -- which, for Americans, is something like the UK's answer to C-SPAN -- even competing with the popular (and, by contrast, highly soothing) baking show, the Great British Bake Off.
Many Britons were left torn about whether to watch "biscuit week" or see their government fall to pieces."
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 10:54 AM
Just read the BBTory article on it. The actual SPIN.
They kept it super short, referred to hin as a remainer and that he resigned under Mad May. They basically tried to paint it as him quitting due to being a remainer and over nothing else I called it! The BbTory's bias is SO TRANSPARENT. It's not fit for purpose. We shouldn't have a state propaganda channel.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 5th September 2019, 11:00 AM
I simply cannot handle this level of schadenfreude right now.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 11:06 AM
I assume we won't be hearing from the brexshit and johnson trolls today? They'll pop up on a better propaganda news day and just gloss right over this.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 5th September 2019, 11:12 AM
Also, tweet of the day:
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 11:17 AM
This is probably the end for the tinpot dictator wannabe! Well, purging so many Tories he is now a minority party, including WINSTON CHURCHILL'S GRANDSON AND KEN CLARK, was probably the end. But this is the end end! Closing streets and posting 1000s of police when he went to parliament to not see protestors probably didn't help either.
Posted by: mald487 5th September 2019, 11:27 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 5 2019, 10:03 AM)
At least those were actual racist remarks he complained about, rather than innocuous ones taken out of context/ones made in what should have been a private setting.
Something like 'I'm sorry for making you think I'm a bigger prick than you thought I was', perhaps?
Oh I am sorry. How unreasonable of me for thinking that somebody should apologize for making derogatory remarks about somebody.
Seriously.
Posted by: *Tim 5th September 2019, 01:11 PM
https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson/status/1169569887364243456
I have no idea how to embed a tweet but I can't at his own sister dragging BoJo as well :')
Posted by: vidcapper 5th September 2019, 02:16 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 5 2019, 12:06 PM)
I assume we won't be hearing from the brexshit and johnson trolls today? They'll pop up on a better propaganda news day and just gloss right over this.
The ones who voices are now ignored are all those who voted Yes to Brexit on 23/6/2016...
Posted by: vidcapper 5th September 2019, 02:18 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 5 2019, 12:27 PM)
Oh I am sorry. How unreasonable of me for thinking that somebody should apologize for making derogatory remarks about somebody.
Seriously.
But kicking someone when they are down is OK?
Posted by: Izzy 5th September 2019, 02:23 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 5 2019, 02:16 PM)
The ones who voices are now ignored are all those who voted Yes to Brexit on 23/6/2016...
This is so bloody rich.
Last I checked the government's official position was to call for the third election in 4 years while still having the objective of leaving the EU, dedicating the past and many years into the future to sort it.
Posted by: Izzy 5th September 2019, 02:26 PM
By the way, I still hold to my prediction that even if Britain officially leaves, by sometime around the 2030s, opinion will go towards rejoining, the EU will ask to join the eurozone/Schengen, we will accept, and congratulations Brexiters, you caused years of chaos for nothing, and lost us the pound and your precious borders in the process.
No one thinks of the long game.
Posted by: mald487 5th September 2019, 02:30 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 5 2019, 02:18 PM)
But kicking someone when they are down is OK?
Whose being kicked.down here? Johnson deserves everything he gets at the moment for what he's try to do to this country, and its not because he cares the referendum result, but for his own party and his own pockets.
Stop defending bigots! The "poor Boris" shit won't wash.
Posted by: Kath 5th September 2019, 02:41 PM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 5 2019, 08:08 AM)
Edit Profile and head down to ‘Manage Ignored Users’ on the left, that’ll be what you’re looking for.
Thanks Izzy - that worked a treat! I've even taken someone off ignore (who'd been hanging around in there for the last 7 years!!!)
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 02:43 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 5 2019, 03:16 PM)
The ones who voices are now ignored are all those who voted Yes to Brexit on 23/6/2016...
Leave campaigned for a Norway model. All the voices being ignored are the 40 million plus who DIDN'T vote for brexshit. Also a lot of those voters were VERY VERY OLD.
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 03:45 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Sep 5 2019, 03:41 PM)
Thanks Izzy - that worked a treat! I've even taken someone off ignore (who'd been hanging around in there for the last 7 years!!!)
It saddens me that Kath has put me on ignore.
I would never do that to anyone as I'm willing to hear all opinions.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 03:49 PM
You sent me a trolly pm and then blocked me before I could even reply?
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 03:50 PM
There are reports tonight from senior Conservative sources, and from LBC, saying that Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd is 'considering her position' and on the verge of resigning in protest at the expulsion of the 27 Tory rebel MPs. The reports are unconfirmed at this time.
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 03:51 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 5 2019, 04:49 PM)
You sent me a trolly pm and then blocked me before I could even reply?
I have never blocked you at all. Why should I? Try to send me a PM.
I sent you another yesterday saying that I am actually a bit worried about Trump's chances.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 03:53 PM
I cannot. You "chose not to be contacted by the board messenger", i.e blocked. Sooo can you comment about Kath?
Posted by: Izzy 5th September 2019, 03:59 PM
Guys, if we could keep the sniping about your ignore list paranoia to a minimum please, because it's distracting from the really quite interesting rumours about Rudd.
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 04:18 PM
What a vile man.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 04:19 PM
What a vile Tory toff!
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 04:24 PM
This speech by Boris is absolutely woeful. How can anyone follow this rambling?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 04:45 PM
He's skirting the election protocol. This is basically him campaigning
Also where did that Amber Rudd rumour spring from? I haven't seen it.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 04:49 PM
Also let's not forget one of the Tory arseholes - Javid - tried to blame Labour for the GLOBAL economic crisis AGAIN. This was when he was supposed to be setting out his plans. Instead he just attacked Labour. He was FAR FAR FAAAR more to blame, seeing as he was getting paid 2 mill at the time to trade junk stocks. Whoops.
Posted by: Rooney 5th September 2019, 05:38 PM
What the hell was that speech.. like a bad North Korean propaganda video.
He’s absolutely finished as PM before he’s even started.
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 06:39 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 5 2019, 06:38 PM)
What the hell was that speech.. like a bad North Korean propaganda video.
He’s absolutely finished as PM before he’s even started.
But he’s beloved!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 06:54 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 5 2019, 06:38 PM)
What the hell was that speech.. like a bad North Korean propaganda video.
He’s absolutely finished as PM before he’s even started.
THIS!!
Oh LORD at that please leave my town vid!!
Apparently the Trumpian Twit has said he would rather die in a ditch than not have a brexshit on Oct 31. Why that date in particular is another mystery. I assume this is like his threat to lie down in front of the Heathrow bulldozers. Instead, he went on holiday hurr hurr jolly good Eton show hurr. BBTory likes to forget that bit and repeat the lie that he vehemently fought against a 3rd runway. What a joke.
A quick reminder to the woe is Boris crowd: he and his staff reportedly discussed trying to use trans rights as a hedge issue in the north to win seats. Oh yes. But his dog! Focus on that instead!
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 07:47 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 5 2019, 04:53 PM)
I cannot. You "chose not to be contacted by the board messenger", i.e blocked. Sooo can you comment about Kath?
I definitely haven't blocked you so don't know why you're getting that message.
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 08:01 PM
Peter Oborne in the Mail saying he needs to sack Cummings immediately but won't.
"Boris is finished, if he gets an extension the Brexit Party will destroy him, if he crashes out his own party will destroy him.
He really has no option left but to resign and rumours are that he'll do that rather than seek an extension"
Posted by: Common Sense 5th September 2019, 08:19 PM
Could we see Boris throwing in the towel rather than seeking another A50 extension? Exciting times ahead.
This saga's not over yet folks.*Goes to buy popcorn*
Posted by: blacksquare 5th September 2019, 09:14 PM
What a week for Boris.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 09:27 PM
Omg is he going to resign you think Common Sense?! Wouldn't surprise me AT ALL.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 5th September 2019, 11:17 PM
Completely out of his depth! What a loser. People that grow up in bubbles...
Posted by: Rooney 5th September 2019, 11:23 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 5 2019, 09:19 PM)
Could we see Boris throwing in the towel rather than seeking another A50 extension? Exciting times ahead.
This saga's not over yet folks.*Goes to buy popcorn*
There are rumours that The Tories are going to submit a VoNC themselves
Cummings believes he is a superhero. Won the referendum through some good planning admittedly and tapping in to emotions with lies, but he thinks he is a genius. Boris has definitely placed way too much faith in him. If we don't leave on 31st October, the numbers look likely that The Tories will lose The Brexit vote. I just don't see how Johnson comes back from this, even if Brexit goes through. He has way too many idiots in his cabinet as well who aren't fit to look after pets never mind run the bloody country.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 5th September 2019, 11:27 PM
Cummings is from the north east, and so he knew what message to put out based on what he heard from the deprived areas, PLUS he got a LOT of practice with the regional assembly referendum here in 2004.
Lmao where are these rumours from?! That's what happens when you try to become a hard far right dictator and purge your mps
Posted by: vidcapper 6th September 2019, 04:52 AM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 6 2019, 12:23 AM)
There are rumours that The Tories are going to submit a VoNC themselves
That had occurred to me, too.
Maybe Boris himself could instigate it...
Posted by: Common Sense 6th September 2019, 06:36 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 5 2019, 10:27 PM)
Omg is he going to resign you think Common Sense?! Wouldn't surprise me AT ALL.
He says he'd rather die in a ditch than ask for or accept an extension so who knows what will happen. Some political commentators say he could just throw in the towel.
Posted by: PeteFromLeeds 6th September 2019, 08:29 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 5 2019, 10:14 PM)
What a week for Boris.
That's my hometown Thankfully I stayed in and avoided all the drama...
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 6th September 2019, 08:32 AM
That "die in a ditch" remark on the surface might seem like a ridiculous thing for our PM to say, but I think it could actually turn out to be a shockingly popular unifying proposal!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 01:18 PM
It's just him saying absolute crap for votes. He didn't lie down in front of Heathrow bulldozers either. He fled and hid from them on holiday instead.
The police chief is furious with Bojo the Clown copying Trump's hard man speeches by putting the police behind him as a prop. He said Bojo lied (surprised?), saying the speech was for police recruitment only. Instead it was an election speech. He politicised the police even more - and people already don't trust them! Especially after Hillsborough. More recently, just this week, they arrested Quakers protesting by worshipping in open. It is an offence to disrupt worship.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th September 2019, 04:23 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 6 2019, 07:36 AM)
He says he'd rather die in a ditch than ask for or accept an extension so who knows what will happen. Some political commentators say he could just throw in the towel.
The PM has to either accept the law and request an extension to Article 50 or resign.
If he resigns of course there may be an election called because no party or leader will command a majority.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 04:26 PM
If Bojo calls a VONC in HIMSELF, what would happen? Would it be a simple majority - say, everyone but him and his chronies abstain, and it's say 270 for a VONC, 40 against, the rest abstained. Would that be enough to kick the Tories out and cause a gen election? Of even if just 2 voted for it and 1 against?
Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th September 2019, 04:32 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 6 2019, 05:26 PM)
If Bojo calls a VONC in HIMSELF, what woulf happen? Would it be a simple majority - say, everyone but him and his chronies abstain, and it's say 270 for a VONC, 40 against, the rest abstained. Would that be enough to kick the Tories out and cause a gen election? Of even if just 2 voted for it and 1 against?
Yes, just a simple majority required - it's not unheard of for a Government to hold a confidence motion, think John Major used it in 1993 to get the Tories to back the Maastricht Treaty.
It would start a 14 day period where a new majority within the current parliament would be sought, and if that failed then a GE would be triggered. It's possible that this may be used to seek a GE but it gives the Opposition an opportunity to form a coalition of national unity government of course.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 04:38 PM
So that would put the opposition in the uncomfortable position of voting against it and possibly causing a GE, although I'm sure ALL parties plus conscious objector Tories expelled from the party would have the numbers for a national unity government, or voting FOR it to avoid him getting his election and therefore forcing through no deal through inaction.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th September 2019, 04:41 PM
It would be difficult for the Opposition parties to vote against a confidence motion - but yeah, they then have the rest of Monday (after the VoNC) to form their own government.
Think it would be an unlikely option for the Tories, but anything is possible !
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 04:44 PM
I really think they have the numbers to form a national unity governmemt anyway tbh! It would be a way out for Bojo the Clown. He's way out his depth. Cummings is getting drunk and screaming, his right wing trolls are attacking Corbyn with each meme worse than the last, frothing at the mouth that he destroyed a THIRD Tory pm, and their far right Trump strongman one at that. This way, he won't resign, but will be removed by the opposition. Saves face.
Posted by: TheSnake 6th September 2019, 07:00 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Sep 6 2019, 05:23 PM)
The PM has to either accept the law and request an extension to Article 50 or resign.
Well, if he still wants to honour his pledge to leave before the 31st October, he could always bring back the withdrawal agreement for another vote before 31st October with whatever tiny changes in language with regards to the backstop he can get from the EU! But I don't think that would be successful getting through Parliament again, and anyway it would split his party even more with some of the ERG being unhappy with it.
Posted by: Klaus 6th September 2019, 07:10 PM
So Boris’ handwritten note that showed he agreed to prorogue Parliament weeks before it was announced that was admitted to court as evidence was originally partially redacted.
It’s been revealed that the redacted phrase was ‘by girly swot Cameron’ so it should read: “Whole September session introduced by girly swot Cameron is a rigmarole introduced to show the public that MPs are earning their crust. I don't see anything especially shocking about this prorogation."
Considering redactions should only be for private or confidential information, it’s concerning that they attempted to redact to cover up potential criticism. It can set a dangerous precedent from an already open liar.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 07:17 PM
Girly swot?! My GOD someone tell this blustering oath that this isn't an Eton playground!
Posted by: Suedehead2 6th September 2019, 07:41 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Sep 6 2019, 08:10 PM)
So Boris’ handwritten note that showed he agreed to prorogue Parliament weeks before it was announced that was admitted to court as evidence was originally partially redacted.
It’s been revealed that the redacted phrase was ‘by girly swot Cameron’ so it should read: “Whole September session introduced by girly swot Cameron is a rigmarole introduced to show the public that MPs are earning their crust. I don't see anything especially shocking about this prorogation."
Considering redactions should
only be for private or confidential information, it’s concerning that they attempted to redact to cover up potential criticism. It can set a dangerous precedent from an already open liar.
That's another lie then. The short September session was introduced by the last Labour government, not Cameron. So he lied when he said he wasn't considering prorogation and couldn't be bothered to check his facts before having ago at his former pal.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 6th September 2019, 08:14 PM
"Girly swot"? He's masterclass orator. Wow.
Posted by: Common Sense 6th September 2019, 09:39 PM
According to a lawyer on Sky News today, the new law has changed nothing. Boris can just sit back and not revoke or request an extension and we still leave by default on 31st Oct. Wonder if the Attorney General told him that when he was seen in No10 the other night.
There are reports in at least one paper tomorrow that Boris is torn between asking for an extension or resigning though.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 6th September 2019, 11:02 PM
Then he'd be a dictator. The EU can then just remove the deadline.
Posted by: vidcapper 7th September 2019, 05:14 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 7 2019, 12:02 AM)
Then he'd be a dictator. The EU can then just remove the deadline.
So then they'd be the dictators, by your logic...
Posted by: Suedehead2 7th September 2019, 08:00 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 7 2019, 06:14 AM)
So then they'd be the dictators, by your logic...
No, because they wouldn’t be defying the law.
Posted by: Jester 7th September 2019, 08:53 AM
BJ can’t ignore the law, that would make him a criminal. Although that seems to be acceptable to some now.
Awful times.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 08:59 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 7 2019, 06:14 AM)
So then they'd be the dictators, by your logic...
By removing a time limit and allowing for more talks?? You high?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 7th September 2019, 10:13 AM
I’d love to see BoJo imprisoned for failing to ask for an extension. He should be in prison anyway for his dirty cheating lying campaign but our electoral laws carry as much weight as a wet sheet of one ply loo roll
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 10:27 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Sep 7 2019, 11:13 AM)
I’d love to see BoJo imprisoned for failing to ask for an extension. He should be in prison anyway for his dirty cheating lying campaign but our electoral laws carry as much weight as a wet sheet of one ply loo roll
This! I'm hoping he resigns in disgrace. He thinks he is some entitled, born to leave tinpot ruler, closing down streets when he goes to parliament, but he's not, no matter how much the right wing gutter press tey to make it so with North Korean propaganda style front pages.
Posted by: vidcapper 7th September 2019, 02:57 PM
Yet all this, and he's still got a 20% higher rating in a Survation 'Who would make the best PM' poll question.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 02:58 PM
Because we have a one party state propaganda machine, aka "media", that has attacked him constantly?
Posted by: Rooney 7th September 2019, 03:26 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 7 2019, 03:57 PM)
Yet all this, and he's still got a 20% higher rating in a Survation 'Who would make the best PM' poll question.
He's always going to have this though, especially riding off the wave of the new PM bounce.
Of course Corbyn will never be truly popular with the media nor with the general public. And this is a problem that Labour will face whilst Corbyn is at the helm.
Posted by: mald487 7th September 2019, 04:53 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 7 2019, 03:26 PM)
He's always going to have this though, especially riding off the wave of the new PM bounce.
Of course Corbyn will never be truly popular with the media nor with the general public. And this is a problem that Labour will face whilst Corbyn is at the helm.
This. Corbyn , for a lot of people is equally divisive for different reasons but that doesn't change the fact that Boris is a scumbag nor does it make him a good PM.
The options available at the moment are bleak and whilst I personally will continue to vote Labour I recognize that as long as Corbyn is at the helm they are unlikely to or are going to struggle to get into power
Posted by: Common Sense 7th September 2019, 06:26 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 7 2019, 05:53 PM)
This. Corbyn , for a lot of people is equally divisive for different reasons but that doesn't change the fact that Boris is a scumbag nor does it make him a good PM.
The options available at the moment are bleak and whilst I personally will continue to vote Labour I recognize that as long as Corbyn is at the helm they are unlikely to or are going to struggle to get into power
If Labour had a different leader they'd have a great chance at the next election. If Corbyn really cared about his party getting in to power he'd resign.
Posted by: mald487 7th September 2019, 07:03 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 7 2019, 06:26 PM)
If Labour had a different leader they'd have a great chance at the next election. If Corbyn really cared about his party getting in to power he'd resign.
I don´t know they they would get a majority under someone else(not for a few years anyway) but I think with the right person they would gain a lot of seats and have a VERY good chance at a coalition government.
We actually agree on something!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 07:27 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 7 2019, 07:26 PM)
If Labour had a different leader they'd have a great chance at the next election. If Corbyn really cared about his party getting in to power he'd resign.
Biggest vote share and biggest vote increase since Attlee? Won seats that had never voted anything but Tory, aka rotten boroughs? Soo yeaaah.
Posted by: Common Sense 7th September 2019, 07:28 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 7 2019, 08:03 PM)
I don´t know they they would get a majority under someone else(not for a few years anyway) but I think with the right person they would gain a lot of seats and have a VERY good chance at a coalition government.
We actually agree on something!
Wow we do. *Faints*
Posted by: Common Sense 7th September 2019, 07:29 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 7 2019, 08:27 PM)
Biggest vote share and biggest vote increase since Attlee? Won seats that had never voted anything but Tory, aka rotten boroughs? Soo yeaaah.
So if they did that and Corbyn's unpopular with a lot of voters, not all I admit, what would happen with a younger more dynamic leader?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 07:35 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 7 2019, 08:29 PM)
So if they did that and Corbyn's unpopular with a lot of voters, not all I admit, what would happen with a younger more dynamic leader?
Corbyn is the dynamic leader with politics of hope.
This is more than a leader. This is about real systematic change. That won't be getting put back in the bottle. We will neeever accept going from Corbyn to a suit and tie neoliberal ever again. Why do you think Murdoch's Sun etc attack him so much?! They're TERRIFIED.
Also your pms:
Welcome to your messenger
The following errors were found
This member has chosen not to be contactable by the board Messenger
This personal message has not been sent
Posted by: Common Sense 7th September 2019, 07:49 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 7 2019, 08:35 PM)
Also your pms:
Welcome to your messenger
The following errors were found
This member has chosen not to be contactable by the board Messenger
This personal message has not been sent
Yes just checked and you were blocked but didn't do it intentionally and have unblocked you now.
Posted by: mald487 7th September 2019, 08:05 PM
I appreciate Corbyns dedication to his stance and again, I personally WILL vote for him, but the only way I see a Labour government again is with someone different, leading them closer to the center ground. I just don´t see it happening with Corbyn unfortunately. There are a lot of people that are extremely angry and pissed off with the Tories(quite RIGHTLY too).
Boris and co are stitching us up ROTTEN, but unfortunately too many people are too blind or gullible to see this(that or they are well off financially and therefore don´t care) and therefore this country(England more so than anywhere else) is choc full of voters who will NEVER vote for Corbyn.
I´m not saying that I agree with it, I wish it wasn´t like that but that´s the reality.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 08:08 PM
That's what they said about Thatcher x
If our one party state media hadn't attacked and attacked, a terrified oligarchy, he would already be pm.
Posted by: mald487 7th September 2019, 08:10 PM
The media definitely has a lot to answer for.
The way they have thrown their toys out of the pram this week is embarrassing.
Posted by: Harve 7th September 2019, 08:15 PM
AMBER RUDD RESIGNING FROM CABINET AND THE TORY WHIP
Posted by: Klaus 7th September 2019, 08:18 PM
Big move considering the majority of her seat!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 08:26 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Sep 7 2019, 09:15 PM)
AMBER RUDD RESIGNING FROM CABINET AND THE TORY WHIP
!!!!
Well why not? She knows she's gone in the next election anyway. Saves face. The rest of the spineless toffs should do the same!
Posted by: Harve 7th September 2019, 08:28 PM
She is standing as an independent in the next election.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 7th September 2019, 08:42 PM
Lmaooo no chance of winning, but being in a marginal she has doomed the Tories in another seat!!
Posted by: Brett-Butler 7th September 2019, 08:44 PM
Something something *this is why we need proportional representation right now* something something.
Posted by: Suedehead2 7th September 2019, 09:04 PM
Thank goodness we haven't had to endure four years of chaos with Ed Miliband.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 7th September 2019, 09:32 PM
And now Angela Smith has joined the Lib Dems. I'm starting to think that Change UK should have just done that in the first place.
Posted by: dandy* 7th September 2019, 09:43 PM
Amber Rudd's resignation letter is quite powerful, she makes it clear that no real effort is being made to obtain a deal.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 7th September 2019, 10:44 PM
If the media backed off painting Corbyn as the devil we would see people's opinions being very different.
I even think tbh if he became PM the papers would change their tune, at least some of them. Would the BBC have to?? Then we would see how the bias went on the other foot.
Those that say if he resigned and a new leader came all would be different, are you forgetting Miliband? Brown? Both painted too as much worse than they were.
On that note. Pretty hilarious the antisemitism in Labour furore when you remember who the leader before Corbyn was. Ed Miliband, whose mother was a Jew - who is at least half Jewish. And who the other candidate, the second candidate voted by Labour members to be leader was - the second most popular ultimately - his brother, of exactly the same heritage. Someone's been telling porkies or trying to help us all forget that.
Posted by: vidcapper 8th September 2019, 04:57 AM
QUOTE(dandy* @ Sep 7 2019, 10:43 PM)
Amber Rudd's resignation letter is quite powerful, she makes it clear that no real effort is being made to obtain a deal.
Whereas massive effort is being expended to circumvent the referendum result...
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 8th September 2019, 05:11 AM
You mean the result of the glorified opinion poll that was only very narrowly won by breaking the law?
And how is preventing a catastrophic no deal circumventing the result when everyone connected with any form of leave campaign said that we would leave with a deal and we’d stay in the single market and the customs union 
Pretty hard to circumvent a set of moving goalposts.
Posted by: Izzy 8th September 2019, 05:23 AM
Bye bye Rudd. May this open the floodgates. But in seriousness, imagine if May did the same. You often see Rudd and May together, what if this is testing the waters for a severe One Nation/ERG split. Possibly political fan fiction but eh.
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 7 2019, 09:04 PM)
Thank goodness we haven't had to endure four years of chaos with Ed Miliband.
Can you just imagine if Labour had had to do a deal with the SNP though? The SNP could hold Labour to ransom on every vote, and they could even block major legislation, maybe even a government’s flagship policy. Thank god nothing like that’s happened in Parliament this year.
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 7 2019, 10:44 PM)
If the media backed off painting Corbyn as the devil we would see people's opinions being very different.
I even think tbh if he became PM the papers would change their tune, at least some of them. Would the BBC have to?? Then we would see how the bias went on the other foot.
Those that say if he resigned and a new leader came all would be different, are you forgetting Miliband? Brown? Both painted too as much worse than they were.
On that note. Pretty hilarious the antisemitism in Labour furore when you remember who the leader before Corbyn was. Ed Miliband, whose mother was a Jew - who is at least half Jewish. And who the other candidate, the second candidate voted by Labour members to be leader was - the second most popular ultimately - his brother, of exactly the same heritage. Someone's been telling porkies or trying to help us all forget that.
I pretty much completely agree. While he’s not perfect his policies and plan for Britain has always looked entirely reasonable and in stark contrast to the picture the media paints of him. He seems light years more statesmanlike than any of the shower of idiots in government the last few years.
Posted by: vidcapper 8th September 2019, 06:23 AM
QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 8 2019, 06:23 AM)
Can you just imagine if Labour had had to do a deal with the SNP though? The SNP could hold Labour to ransom on every vote, and they could even block major legislation, maybe even a government’s flagship policy.
At very least, they could force them to offer a new Independence vote.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 8th September 2019, 06:37 AM
What a tragedy that would be.
Posted by: Izzy 8th September 2019, 07:08 AM
Yeah the difference between that scenario and DUP reality is that I disagree with the SNP on very little up to and including independence at this point. If they want an escape route from this farce, let them have it.
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 07:11 AM
Boris is reportedly going to challenge the new no deal law in the Supreme Court as he's still determined to take us out with no deal on 31st October even if it means he goes to jail.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 8th September 2019, 07:22 AM
Don’t be a raging moron. Johnson will never go to prison, he’s far too invested in his own self interest to do that
Posted by: Suedehead2 8th September 2019, 07:35 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 8 2019, 05:57 AM)
Whereas massive effort is being expended to circumvent the referendum result...
Are you still struggling to tell the difference between breaking the law and deciding to disregard the result of an advisory referendum is impossible to implement without causing serious harm to the country?
Posted by: Suedehead2 8th September 2019, 07:37 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 8 2019, 08:11 AM)
Boris is reportedly going to challenge the new no deal law in the Supreme Court as he's still determined to take us out with no deal on 31st October even if it means he goes to jail.
Challenge it in what grounds?
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 07:45 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 8 2019, 08:37 AM)
Challenge it in what grounds?
No idea, just mentioned as one of his thoughts, on Sky News earlier.
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 07:56 AM
From BBC News.
The Conservative Party plans to stand a candidate against Speaker John Bercow for his role in allowing MPs to take control of the Commons agenda.
Business secretary Andrea Leadsom accused the Speaker in the Mail on Sunday of "flagrant abuse" of process.
Breaching convention, the party plans to oppose Mr Bercow in his Buckingham constituency at the next election.
Formerly a Tory, Mr Bercow gave up his party affiliation when he took on the impartial role.
As the highest authority in the House of Commons, the Speaker chairs MPs' debates.
In order to be impartial, the Speaker resigns from their party, and - while they still stand in general elections - they are usually unopposed by the main parties, and they do not campaign on political issues.
But Ms Leadsom - who has clashed with Mr Bercow in the past - said the Tories would ignore this convention and stand against him at the next election.
She said the role of the Speaker was to be "a politically impartial, independent umpire of proceedings" and to "protect the constitution and oversee the behaviour of the House".
"But last week, the current Speaker failed us," she said.
By allowing the use of Standing Order Number 24 - a procedure normally used to trigger emergency debates - to take over the Parliamentary timetable, Mr Bercow had not "just bent the rules, he has broken them", she said.
The move meant opposition and rebel MPs could pass a law blocking a no-deal Brexit, which the prime minister said undermined his Brexit strategy.
Ms Leadsom said allowing the opposition to control the agenda in this way "ignores the government's right to govern" and undermines democracy, prompting Mr Johnson's call for a general election.
"Bring it on, I say, and give us back an impartial speaker," she said.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 08:10 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Sep 8 2019, 08:22 AM)
Don’t be a raging moron. Johnson will never go to prison, he’s far too invested in his own self interest to do that
This. It's all bluster. If we had a responsible media, they would remind us of how he said the same about bulldozers and then fled the country.
Posted by: T Boy 8th September 2019, 08:43 AM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 8 2019, 08:11 AM)
Boris is reportedly going to challenge the new no deal law in the Supreme Court as he's still determined to take us out with no deal on 31st October even if it means he goes to jail.
So does this basically confirm what we already knew? That Boris wants no deal and isn’t interested in negotiating? This is what makes him an absolute monster.
Posted by: Klaus 8th September 2019, 09:25 AM
Exactly. For all the talk of renegotiating in all those hundreds of debates and interviews for becoming leader of the party, there has been zero attempts to try and renegotiate and come up with a workable solution to the backstop. The latter is because there is no workable solution. All attention has been focused on a no deal.
At least we know the economy will fall by ‘only’ 5.5% rather than 8% 🙃
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 09:33 AM
They aren't negotiating. This is an absolute farce. And people like Chris still believe they are trying to come with a deal, when the EU has said negotiations finished with Mad May in the first place
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 10:14 AM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Sep 8 2019, 09:43 AM)
So does this basically confirm what we already knew? That Boris wants no deal and isn’t interested in negotiating? This is what makes him an absolute monster.
It's all he's ever been interesting as it gets the crazies on side. The obvious problem with this current Cabinet (and further demonstrated with Leadsome's comments in the Mail) is that is it full of idiots, lunatics, overpromotions and people just out of touch with reality. Half of these people should be nowhere near Minister positions let alone in the Cabinet.
There's stuff today that Farage and Boris are about to get in to bed with each other. If that happens you kill off the Conservative Party longer term. Of course Farage is trying to trap the Tories, it's whether they fall for the trap, but just like I can't see Labour forming a Remain alliance, I can't see the Tories doing it either.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 8th September 2019, 10:17 AM
QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 7 2019, 11:44 PM)
On that note. Pretty hilarious the antisemitism in Labour furore when you remember who the leader before Corbyn was. Ed Miliband, whose mother was a Jew - who is at least half Jewish. And who the other candidate, the second candidate voted by Labour members to be leader was - the second most popular ultimately - his brother, of exactly the same heritage. Someone's been telling porkies or trying to help us all forget that.
That's a classic piece of misdirection there. Let's not forget that Jeremy Corbyn became leader due to the tens of thousands of people, many from the radical-left, who became members of the Labour Party for the sole purpose of voting for Jeremy Corbyn, and it is from these entryists that the anti-Semitism has largely come from. There were minor occurrences of anti-Semitism in the party well before Corbyn became leader, although these were usually minor, isolated incidents (including a few from Ken Livingstone whilst he was Mayor of London, which did cause controversy at the time). But with Corbyn and the influx of new members, the issue has become systemic, whether or not Corbyn is anti-Semitic himself, anti-Semites do seem to view him as a "fellow traveller", and so far the Labour Party has done a poor job of dealing with the issue head-on. It's a sad state of affair that Corbyn has received the support of bone-fide anti-Semites like Nick Griffin and former leader of the KKK David Duke due to them viewing him as such, and as far as I am aware he has yet to denounce their support.
I also don't find it "pretty hilarious" that prominent Jewish MPs and members of the Labour Party have been made to feel unwelcome in the party that they have made their home in due to being targeted for their religion/ethnicity, but I guess we must have very different opinions of what constitutes humour.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 10:21 AM
So what do you say about HALF of the anti semitism claims just being duplicates to make Labour look worse? What about those who report Labour for anti-semitism over criticism of Israel? The peoplr who joined he party to vote for Corbyn are just everyday people. They're not all hard left and the hard left is not anti-semetic anyway, though it is critical of the Israeli government. Who has been made to feel unwelcome? We would need actual polling data on that.
Labour has tackled the issue, as one instance is still one too many, and done everything it can though? Whilst Labour is making sure it tackles any futurw issues, what about the Tories? What are they doing about their anti semitisim and islamophobia. What's that - nothing at all? Oh.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 8th September 2019, 10:29 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 8 2019, 11:21 AM)
So what do you say about HALF of the anti semitism claims just being duplicates to make Labour look worse? What about those who report Labour for anti-semitism over criticism of Israel? The peoplr (sic) who joined he party to vote for Corbyn are just everyday people. They're not hard left and the hard left is not anti-semetic, though it is critical of the Israeli government.
Citations needed.
I am fully aware that criticism of Israel does not equate to anti-Semitism (indeed, many Jewish people and Israelis would be heavily critical of Israel since Benjamin Netenyahu became PM again). It's just that many of those that are are also horribly anti-Semitic as well.
Posted by: Suedehead2 8th September 2019, 10:48 AM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 8 2019, 11:14 AM)
It's all he's ever been interesting as it gets the crazies on side. The obvious problem with this current Cabinet (and further demonstrated with Leadsome's comments in the Mail) is that is it full of idiots, lunatics, overpromotions and people just out of touch with reality. Half of these people should be nowhere near Minister positions let alone in the Cabinet.
There's stuff today that Farage and Boris are about to get in to bed with each other. If that happens you kill off the Conservative Party longer term. Of course Farage is trying to trap the Tories, it's whether they fall for the trap, but just like I can't see Labour forming a Remain alliance, I can't see the Tories doing it either.
I wonder what the party chair, Notso Cleverley, thinks of that idea. He thought it was outrageous that the Greens and Plaid Cymru chose not to stand in the Brecon byelection. Surely he wouldn't be so hypocritical as to support a Tory pact with the Farage Fan Club?
Posted by: Klaus 8th September 2019, 11:02 AM
Farage has said that the Brexit party won’t stand against any Conservative MP who voted against May’s deal and will also vote against any future deal...
Incredibly short-sighted. It’s disgusting that the narrative is being rewritten into Remain v No Deal
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 11:08 AM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Sep 8 2019, 12:02 PM)
Farage has said that the Brexit party won’t stand against any Conservative MP who voted against May’s deal and will also vote against any future deal...
Incredibly short-sighted. It’s disgusting that the narrative is being rewritten into Remain v No Deal
Weird isn't it as there is probably enough electoral support to get Brexit done with the Brexit Party. But then what does the Conservative Party become? You purge the party of moderates and basically have a party that the sole motive is isolationism and being America's puppy. Surely it turns a large percentage of proper Conservatives off the party. He's affectively trying to force the Tories to come out and say they only support No Deal.
Posted by: mald487 8th September 2019, 12:39 PM
To be honest if those wanking themselves silly over no deal still believe that is current shower really have their best interests at heart then quite frankly they DESERVE no deal.
If anything a concerted effort should be made NOT to help them deal with any personal consequences that may arise for them as a result of a no deal Brexit.
You were warned, you stuck your fingers in your ears.
You wanted it, you've got it, now EAT it.
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 03:15 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 8 2019, 01:39 PM)
To be honest if those wanking themselves silly over no deal still believe that is current shower really have their best interests at heart then quite frankly they DESERVE no deal.
If anything a concerted effort should be made NOT to help them deal with any personal consequences that may arise for them as a result of a no deal Brexit.
You were warned, you stuck your fingers in your ears.
You wanted it, you've got it, now EAT it.
While I would love to rightly take the moral high ground, just allowing us to crash out without a deal is unlikely to happen now. If Johnson attempts what he the rumorus say he is doing then he's gone full on nut job, will likely at some point face a trial. I just feel there are too many smarter people on the side of No Deal now. Johnson doesn't want an extension because he knows that's him finished as PM.
I feel it's hard to blame people, people are easily manipulated to suit someone's agenda and then most of them are too stubborn to believe it when it's true. It's why Farage's message is so powerful to the Brexiteers. Was reading something earlier that it's likely fuel is going to be rationed in the event of a No Deal. So just like the good old days of the war
Just feel content that in the event of their being a No Deal Brexit there will be some good old fashioned anarchy across the Kingdom.
Posted by: TheJüpreme 8th September 2019, 04:10 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 8 2019, 11:17 AM)
That's a classic piece of misdirection there. Let's not forget that Jeremy Corbyn became leader due to the tens of thousands of people, many from the radical-left, who became members of the Labour Party for the sole purpose of voting for Jeremy Corbyn, and it is from these entryists that the anti-Semitism has largely come from. There were minor occurrences of anti-Semitism in the party well before Corbyn became leader, although these were usually minor, isolated incidents (including a few from Ken Livingstone whilst he was Mayor of London, which did cause controversy at the time). But with Corbyn and the influx of new members, the issue has become systemic, whether or not Corbyn is anti-Semitic himself, anti-Semites do seem to view him as a "fellow traveller", and so far the Labour Party has done a poor job of dealing with the issue head-on. It's a sad state of affair that Corbyn has received the support of bone-fide anti-Semites like Nick Griffin and former leader of the KKK David Duke due to them viewing him as such, and as far as I am aware he has yet to denounce their support.
I also don't find it "pretty hilarious" that prominent Jewish MPs and members of the Labour Party have been made to feel unwelcome in the party that they have made their home in due to being targeted for their religion/ethnicity, but I guess we must have very different opinions of what constitutes humour.
If only any of those claims had ever come with any evidence eh!
A hack documentary from the BBC, one MP crying wolf after the constituency she was parachuted into and didn't do any work in decided they weren't fans of her, and persistent conflation of antiZionism with regular antisemitism does not evidence make.
Before we even get to Jewish Policy Research documents written by actual British Jewish academics finding antisemitism at much higher levels in - shock horror - rightwing parties, the parties traditionally known for being intolerant of any kind of minority, than in the Labour party.
https://jpr.org.uk/publication?id=9993
What's hilarious is the level of gullibility people will willingly jump into in the hopes of finding some epithet to throw at leftwingers, to be able to gleefully PROVE that the rightwing and the leftwing are JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER instead of one being consistently on the right and one on the wrong side of history.
Posted by: vidcapper 8th September 2019, 04:16 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Sep 8 2019, 07:37 AM)
What a tragedy that would be.
For Labour, it would be shooting themselves in the foot if Scotland gained Independence - the loss of Scottish MP's would be a serious hit to their chances of winning a UK GE...
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 8 2019, 08:35 AM)
Are you still struggling to tell the difference between breaking the law and deciding to disregard the result of an advisory referendum is impossible to implement without causing serious harm to the country?
Whatever happened to 'This is your choice - we will implement what you decide'?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 8th September 2019, 04:22 PM
Ironically it’s Scotland’s Tory MPs that put may into power
Iirc it’s only once in like the last 100 years labour needed its Scottish MPs to govern. All other times they had enough from England and Wales. Yet another easily disproved soundbite from you. That’s an F. Try harder next time x
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 04:53 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 8 2019, 05:16 PM)
For Labour, it would be shooting themselves in the foot if Scotland gained Independence - the loss of Scottish MP's would be a serious hit to their chances of winning a UK GE...
Whatever happened to 'This is your choice - we will implement what you decide'?
The only party I think that would give the Union up right now is the current state of the Conversative Party and their sheer desperation to get Brexit through.
I don't think this current Labour government would enter in to a coalition pact with Scotland as obviously another referendum would be part of the pact. They'd surely just rule as a minority government.
Also Vidcapper, I really do understand you want Brexit done and I sympathise that it's not been implemented, but this reality of Brexit was not sold in 2016 and given the choice I am doubtful that people would have voted for it. The excuse of Brexiteers saying 'get it done cos it's what the people voted for' doesn't weigh very well with me. It creates a whole host of other problems and doesn't really solve any.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 04:55 PM
Let's also remind ourselves of how many old brexshitters died since then, so saying 17.4m, a minority anyway, is now totally disingenuous. And how many voted for a no deal when a Norway model was what was on offer anyway? And 45 million didn't vote for brexshit.
Posted by: Suedehead2 8th September 2019, 05:00 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 8 2019, 05:16 PM)
For Labour, it would be shooting themselves in the foot if Scotland gained Independence - the loss of Scottish MP's would be a serious hit to their chances of winning a UK GE...
Whatever happened to 'This is your choice - we will implement what you decide'?
How many more times? Parliament legislated for an advisory referendum. The notes with it stated very clearly that it placed no obligations on the government whatsoever. They ruled out any threshold precisely because it made no sense in an advisory referendum. A statement in a leaflet cannot overrule Parliament.
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 05:24 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 8 2019, 05:55 PM)
Let's also remind ourselves of how many old brexshitters died since then, so saying 17.4m, a minority anyway, is now totally disingenuous. And how many voted for a no deal when a Norway model was what was on offer anyway? And 45 million didn't vote for brexshit.
And just another timely reminder who so many prominent Brexiteers are so keen on us being out on October 31st..
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/a-reminder-of-all-the-brexiteers-who-appeared-in-the-paradise-papers-as-eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 05:24 PM
According to DS posters, LBC is quoting sources in Paris as saying France sees no point in the EU granting an extension "in the present circumstances" as the delay is just going on and on. Macron may veto any extension then but would be under immense pressure to capitulate by other members especially Ireland. Of course the circumstances would be different if a GE was called.
I can understand Macron's real frustration at all this as how many more extension's will we ask for?
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 05:28 PM
To quote a DS poster.
I agree with France on this. The government were told not to waste the six months, and they wasted it. Six weeks were wasted just confirming Johnson as leader. Then another six weeks on the MPs' summer holidays. Now 5 weeks to be spent with Parliament suspended. Whatever they might be planning to use the extra 3 months for, they could have done that in the 3 months to Oct 31; they still could do some of it.
Well said. We'd just waste the next 3 months too.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 05:30 PM
No, no. I think this is another blinder by Corbyn and the EU. France vetoes the 3 months extension, but ... the EU then offers a two year extension. Boom.
Posted by: Harve 8th September 2019, 05:32 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Sep 8 2019, 05:22 PM)
Ironically it’s Scotland’s Tory MPs that put may into power
Iirc it’s only once in like the last 100 years labour needed its Scottish MPs to govern. All other times they had enough from England and Wales. Yet another easily disproved soundbite from you. That’s an F. Try harder next time x
Scotland did influence the result in 2017 but in a way that may be counter-intuitive, given the 12 Tory gains: we
deprived the UK of a Tory majority, as 13 Tory MPs is still less than a quarter of Scottish MPs.
It's similar to the 2010 election in that there would have been an absolute Tory majority were it not for Scotland, instead of a coalition.
Posted by: Rooney 8th September 2019, 05:32 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 8 2019, 06:24 PM)
According to DS posters, LBC is quoting sources in Paris as saying France sees no point in the EU granting an extension "in the present circumstances" as the delay is just going on and on. Macron may veto any extension then but would be under immense pressure to capitulate by other members especially Ireland. Of course the circumstances would be different if a GE was called.
I can understand Macron's real frustration at all this as how many more extension's will we ask for?
Just ignore that Chris, it is Macron playing up to the French people. He is under a lot of domestic pressure. Do you really think he is going to be the one to trigger no deal, the impact that might have on the UK and on a fellow EU state Ireland? Absolutely no chance. The EU will grant us as many extensions as possible, as there is a real possibility we might not even leave. Johnson is the one wasting time.
As always, we would have left by now if the majority of the current Cabinet voted for the original negotiated deal.
Posted by: mald487 8th September 2019, 06:30 PM
They may grant as many extensions as possible, but I can totally understand France and other nations getting pissed off with us. Like...if you´re going go...or stop this nonsense.
Not saying that it´s that simple right now, but I get the view point.
Posted by: Klaus 8th September 2019, 06:41 PM
For as long as Boris/ERG are in power, they’ll just continue to run down the clock no matter ehen the deadline is
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 8th September 2019, 06:43 PM
You can open the door for the cat, but eventually you'll get annoyed just standing there holding it open.
Posted by: mald487 8th September 2019, 07:29 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 8 2019, 06:43 PM)
You can open the door for the cat, but eventually you'll get annoyed just standing there holding it open.
This is a great analogy
Posted by: mald487 8th September 2019, 07:32 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 8 2019, 05:28 PM)
To quote a DS poster.
I agree with France on this. The government were told not to waste the six months, and they wasted it. Six weeks were wasted just confirming Johnson as leader. Then another six weeks on the MPs' summer holidays. Now 5 weeks to be spent with Parliament suspended. Whatever they might be planning to use the extra 3 months for, they could have done that in the 3 months to Oct 31; they still could do some of it.
Well said. We'd just waste the next 3 months too.
What´s going on? That´s TWO things we agree(albeit this one partially) in a week!
What´s happening?
Posted by: Doctor Blind 8th September 2019, 07:36 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 8 2019, 06:24 PM)
According to DS posters, LBC is quoting sources in Paris as saying France sees no point in the EU granting an extension "in the present circumstances" as the delay is just going on and on. Macron may veto any extension then but would be under immense pressure to capitulate by other members especially Ireland. Of course the circumstances would be different if a GE was called.
I can understand Macron's real frustration at all this as how many more extension's will we ask for?
Nobody wants to be seen as the one to be blamed for a ‘No Deal’ outcome, that is why Macron caved in April and will likely do so again... there has been remarkable unity from the EU27.
Patience is running out however, understandably so.
Posted by: Common Sense 8th September 2019, 08:04 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Sep 8 2019, 08:32 PM)
What´s going on? That´s TWO things we agree(albeit this one partially) in a week!
What´s happening?
Maybe we are half-brothers.
Posted by: vidcapper 9th September 2019, 04:54 AM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 8 2019, 05:55 PM)
Let's also remind ourselves of how many old brexshitters died since then, so saying 17.4m, a minority anyway, is now totally disingenuous. And how many voted for a no deal when a Norway model was what was on offer anyway? And 45 million didn't vote for brexshit.
No vote result is revised on how many people have died or been added since it was held, so that is an irrelevance.
As for '45 million' not voting for it - that is a ridiculous number to quote, as it includes *everyone* including newborns!
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Sep 8 2019, 06:00 PM)
How many more times? Parliament legislated for an advisory referendum. The notes with it stated very clearly that it placed no obligations on the government whatsoever. They ruled out any threshold precisely because it made no sense in an advisory referendum. A statement in a leaflet cannot overrule Parliament.
But it sets a *moral* obligation to do what you promised, and in the eyes of the electorate, especially Leave voters, that is far stronger
than some legal technicality - and the population do not not easily forget such a betrayal!
Posted by: Steve201 9th September 2019, 02:12 PM
Every referendum has small print which states it can be advisory but then no referendum would mean anything. The PM at the time called it as a Once in a lifetime vote which will be followed into the statute books that's the fact now and even the LDs don't argue that they just refuse to acknowledge any Brexit at all - they are the authoritarian party in this case!
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 9th September 2019, 02:13 PM
WROOONG.
It was ADVISORY. Tories say a lot of dumb shit, but it doesn't supersede the law.
It was a 50 50 two nation split with little youth support and a lot of disenfranchised voters. It wasn't enough.
Posted by: Steve201 9th September 2019, 02:21 PM
Why do the pro remain politicians not argue this? Only ever heard that arguement in here!
Posted by: vidcapper 9th September 2019, 02:33 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 9 2019, 03:21 PM)
Why do the pro remain politicians not argue this? Only ever heard that arguement in here!
Because they don't want to admit that, legally, the Referendum wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 9th September 2019, 02:37 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 9 2019, 03:33 PM)
Because they don't want to admit that, legally, the Referendum wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
This.
Omg I am agreeing with vudcapper
Posted by: vidcapper 9th September 2019, 02:47 PM
QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 9 2019, 03:37 PM)
This.
Omg I am agreeing with vudcapper
We agreed on that Lana Del Rey album too, don't forget.
However, while the referendum may have technically been advisory, even the most ardent of Remainer MP's has had enough sense not to claim it can be ignored simply for that reason.
Posted by: Common Sense 9th September 2019, 03:16 PM
Speaker Bercow to stand down at next election or after Commons sitting on 31st October, whichever comes first.
Posted by: dandy* 9th September 2019, 09:08 PM
I appreciate my social circles are not representative but I know quite a few people who voted to leave. I’d say they are about 50/50 split on opinion, half feel betrayed by us not having left yet, the other half feel betrayed by the false promises and lack of information and wish they knew then what they know now.
Basically none of us are happy whether leave or remain!!! The whole thing is just beyond words as to the level of incompetence that has been displayed across the board.
Posted by: dandy* 9th September 2019, 09:12 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 9 2019, 03:47 PM)
We agreed on that Lana Del Rey album too, don't forget.
Obviously Lana’s new album >>>>> Brexit
Posted by: Common Sense 9th September 2019, 09:49 PM
I still think Boris and Cummings have something up their sleeves to take us out on 31st October. It was said on Westminster Hour on Radio 4 yesterday that Cummings has said "if people are surprised with what we've done so far, then they'll absolutely melt as what we have planned for the next few weeks" Let's hope they've thought of an ace card to get us out on Oct 31st as Boris promised.
Posted by: Rooney 9th September 2019, 09:55 PM
QUOTE(dandy* @ Sep 9 2019, 10:08 PM)
I appreciate my social circles are not representative but I know quite a few people who voted to leave. I’d say they are about 50/50 split on opinion, half feel betrayed by us not having left yet, the other half feel betrayed by the false promises and lack of information and wish they knew then what they know now.
Basically none of us are happy whether leave or remain!!! The whole thing is just beyond words as to the level of incompetence that has been displayed across the board.
Likewise I know a a fair few people who voted Remain who are throwing their hair out at the current political situation. Again I tried to tell them that while I agree you should have No Deal on the negotiating table, it's quite clear that Boris wants to take us out with No Deal.
As I said the current situation is so extreme unless the Tories get a majority in a GE, we're likely to come down to a People's Vote with May's Deal/No Deal vs Revoke.
Be very interesting to see these No Deal papers tomorrow...
Posted by: Rooney 9th September 2019, 09:59 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 9 2019, 10:49 PM)
I still think Boris and Cummings have something up their sleeves to take us out on 31st October. It was said on Westminster Hour on Radio 4 yesterday that Cummings has said "if people are surprised with what we've done so far, then they'll absolutely melt as what we have planned for the next few weeks" Let's hope they've thought of an ace card to get us out on Oct 31st as Boris promised.
Can't see how they get us out without breaking the law.
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 9th September 2019, 10:01 PM
QUOTE(dandy* @ Sep 9 2019, 10:12 PM)
Obviously Lana’s new album >>>>> Brexit
This!
Posted by: Common Sense 9th September 2019, 10:01 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 9 2019, 10:59 PM)
Can't see how they get us out without breaking the law.
Remember though, as was pointed out on TV today, the new law doesn't actually say no to no deal. All it does, which surprises me, is compel the PM to ask for an extension, in good faith. If he asks but it's blocked then he's complied with the law and we leave by default. What's to stop him asking a poorer member to veto it?
Wouldn't put anything past them at present.
Posted by: Rooney 9th September 2019, 10:08 PM
QUOTE(Common Sense @ Sep 9 2019, 11:01 PM)
Remember though, as was pointed out on TV today, the new law doesn't actually say no to no deal. All it does, which surprises me, is compel the PM to ask for an extension, in good faith. If he asks but it's blocked then he's complied with the law and we leave by default. What's to stop him asking a poorer member to veto it?
Wouldn't put anything past them at present.
So basically bribing a country like Poland to veto us? This is African dictator levels of mockery from a supposed democratic state! The EU votes in a block, if any power if going to veto it it will be Germany/France, but they won't because it is not in the interests of the EU to put another state at risk or be the cause of No Deal. The law states the governent either has to achieve a majority of No Deal (not going to happen), force a Deal through (could happen, tho I'd say highly unlikely at this stage) or ask for an extension.
Posted by: Common Sense 9th September 2019, 10:34 PM
Boris just spoken in the Commons and said again that he will not seek any extension. Seemed very angry and, dare I say it, a bit drunk. Maybe a glass too many with Varadkar?
Posted by: Algernon Monqueef 9th September 2019, 10:42 PM
Lmao him and Cummings need to GET THE f*** OUT OF PARLIAMENT AND 10 DOWNING STREET. WE DO NOT WANT DICTATORS.
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