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| Should million-sellers include streaming? |
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 7th January 2015, 06:33 AM
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#1
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364 
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There seems to be disagreement on this, as songs that pass 1m thanks to streams seem to be considered illegitimate in some quarters.
This seems odd to me, as when downloads were first added, people seemed to have no problem in counting *them* towards overall totals, even though older songs didn't have the benefit of them on original release - just as is the case for older songs with streaming now. |
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7th January 2015, 07:03 AM
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#2
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 "Jayrusaleminians" - Umi.
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 4 April 2007 Posts: 41,456 User: 3,217
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I think the term "million sellers" should be updated somehow to reflect the fact that it's not purely all about sales anymore. Although you could argue that the definition of what a sale actually is nowadays has changed, considering how streaming data is being used for chart purposes.
When songs have passed 200k/400k/600k recently, they're still easily being regarded as having gone silver, gold and platinum respectively, even though they've not *sold* that amount to reach those certification levels. Therefore it's a bit odd that we're still being a bit "old fashioned" about million sellers and not yet recognising a song which has passed a million in the modern day sense. Only considering a song as being worthy of mentioning in terms of a million after it's sold a million is going to become more and more outdated as time passes, if streaming takes further precedence. It's all a problem with terminology and I think it just needs to be changed asap. We might get to the stage where no song reaches a million sales any more, but songs could more easily become "a million *insert word here*" thanks to streaming. I do think the OCC should continue to keep track of when a song has sold a million copies for the foreseeable future, but I think they (and we) should start thinking of songs that got there with sales + streaming as being a notable achievement too. |
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7th January 2015, 09:35 AM
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#3
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 February 2010
Posts: 25,010 User: 10,665
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I don't know. If million sellers continue to be sales only, there aren't going to be a whole lot in the future. Sales are still high enough that the biggest hits can sell a million, but in a few years it won't be happening.
On the other hand, if you include streaming, it'll be easier than ever for songs to get a million. |
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7th January 2015, 09:38 AM
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#4
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 Schlagerdrottningen
Joined: 23 August 2010
Posts: 31,877 User: 11,709
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Personally I don't think so, as the very name is 'sellers', BUT in the interest of the charts being reflective of what is popular I can accept it, provided we still get a sales only list at some point too.
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7th January 2015, 09:48 AM
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#5
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You can call me Manboy
Joined: 18 April 2006
Posts: 2,875 User: 488
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Your options seem to contradict the original question but no i dont think streams should count at all.
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7th January 2015, 10:08 AM
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#6
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 11 October 2013
Posts: 31,028 User: 19,931
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I don't really mind.
But I do think it's a bit messy and confusing that certifications include streams and million sellers don't. It's a bit annoying and they should just stick to one of the two and make it a bit more cohesive. |
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7th January 2015, 10:12 AM
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#7
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Former iconic poster with no consistent posting style
Pronouns: Don't take em seriously tbh
Joined: 20 June 2014 Posts: 20,582 User: 21,005 
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The clue is in the name, guys.
Million SELLERS. Songs that sell a million SALES.  Streaming does not sell, because you do not buy 
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7th January 2015, 10:15 AM
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#8
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,851 User: 17,376
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streaming is not "sales" it's an arbitrary definition of a sale which may change with time, which would mean the million sellers with streaming would also need messy alteration if it changes in the future (weighting of sales could go up or down). For the purposes of charts it doesnt really matter as there are separate streaming and sales charts with actual figures for both, and the combined chart is just a snapshot of how they view the ratio at a given moment (I personally think that 12% of the market for streaming is WAY over-weighted for the chart, but thats a different issue). As long as there continues to be a reasonable argument of what the weighting should be (which will be until the day downloads stop forever) there is no such fixed thing as a "sale" for streaming, so counting it for million-sellers would just mess up the whole list before too long.
Actual sales only! |
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7th January 2015, 10:41 AM
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#9
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 23 September 2011
Posts: 1,939 User: 14,963 
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I don't think streams should count on the chart at all but if they are going to include them as "sales" on the weekly charts they should be included in the overall sales of a song so yes streams should be included. Its a mess otherwise.
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7th January 2015, 10:52 AM
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#10
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Former iconic poster with no consistent posting style
Pronouns: Don't take em seriously tbh
Joined: 20 June 2014 Posts: 20,582 User: 21,005
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If they have it including streaming they will have to change the name...
Million what? 
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7th January 2015, 12:06 PM
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#11
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BuzzJack Regular
Joined: 27 December 2012
Posts: 293 User: 18,060
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Seems stupid to count them for weekly sales but not for overall sales
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7th January 2015, 12:10 PM
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#12
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 9 March 2006
Posts: 20,230 User: 140
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I voted no but if they are to be included a breakdown should be shown. For me million selling downloads aren't in the same league as million physical sellers either.
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7th January 2015, 01:03 PM
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#13
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BuzzJack Climber
Joined: 22 December 2013
Posts: 177 User: 20,299
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QUOTE(tgl92 @ Jan 7 2015, 12:06 PM)  Seems stupid to count them for weekly sales but not for overall sales It's stupid to count them for weekly sales too! Streaming is a listen to track which nobody owns. People listen to the million sellers all the time from the past. But those listened to where not recorded. What makes it worse for streaming is that you don't even have to listen to all the track, so the contribution could be to sales could be just a casual person listening to the song because it's popular, then finding out they don't like it! However if you fork out money for a record you probably do like it, hence why in the past people bought records in huge numbers and the term "a million seller" was born. It stood out from the rest of the records that were on sale and was a special achievement. However does this still apply to a million seller? The status of the million seller has been somewhat downgraded in the past few years since downloads came along. Since downloads are cheaper than the records prior to the introduction of the format. So a record that sold 1 million copies precisely. In the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's made more money than a download record selling the same. Also before downloads, records were deleted so a record selling a huge amount couldn't stay in the shops long and often the record company restricted sending copies out of the big sellers to open up the market for new tracks. This changed with the download market and records now continue to sell. This means that over a long time even a modest selling record in the day can still have the tag "million seller" applied to it. However streaming is even worse for paying out and so a 1 million stream of even allowed streams is as low or lower than the download, so the status of the term "million seller" become pointless. |
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7th January 2015, 01:21 PM
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#14
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 3 August 2006
Posts: 8,209 User: 1,031
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I think streams should be included as its a new trend in the way people are accessing music. Streaming figures are included in calculating the weekly sales positions on the charts and in doing so, the OCC use a sale calculation of 100 streams to 1 unit sale. So why not include them in calculating sales figures overall? People argue that if someone has streamed a song then they don't physically own the product but in streaming the track they have still paid a subscription fee in order to enable them to listen to the song.
This post has been edited by slowdown73: 7th January 2015, 01:22 PM |
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7th January 2015, 01:23 PM
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#15
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 9 March 2006
Posts: 20,230 User: 140
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QUOTE(Graham A @ Jan 7 2015, 01:03 PM) It's stupid to count them for weekly sales too! Streaming is a listen to track which nobody owns. People listen to the million sellers all the time from the past. But those listened to where not recorded. What makes it worse for streaming is that you don't even have to listen to all the track, so the contribution could be to sales could be just a casual person listening to the song because it's popular, then finding out they don't like it! However if you fork out money for a record you probably do like it, hence why in the past people bought records in huge numbers and the term "a million seller" was born. It stood out from the rest of the records that were on sale and was a special achievement. However does this still apply to a million seller? The status of the million seller has been somewhat downgraded in the past few years since downloads came along. Since downloads are cheaper than the records prior to the introduction of the format. So a record that sold 1 million copies precisely. In the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's made more money than a download record selling the same. Also before downloads, records were deleted so a record selling a huge amount couldn't stay in the shops long and often the record company restricted sending copies out of the big sellers to open up the market for new tracks. This changed with the download market and records now continue to sell. This means that over a long time even a modest selling record in the day can still have the tag "million seller" applied to it. However streaming is even worse for paying out and so a 1 million stream of even allowed streams is as low or lower than the download, so the status of the term "million seller" become pointless. Excellent post. I couldn't agree more. |
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7th January 2015, 01:36 PM
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#16
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 3 August 2006
Posts: 8,209 User: 1,031
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QUOTE(Graham A @ Jan 7 2015, 01:03 PM)
It's stupid to count them for weekly sales too! Streaming is a listen to track which nobody owns. People listen to the million sellers all the time from the past. But those listened to where not recorded. What makes it worse for streaming is that you don't even have to listen to all the track, so the contribution could be to sales could be just a casual person listening to the song because it's popular, then finding out they don't like it! However if you fork out money for a record you probably do like it, hence why in the past people bought records in huge numbers and the term "a million seller" was born. It stood out from the rest of the records that were on sale and was a special achievement. However does this still apply to a million seller? The status of the million seller has been somewhat downgraded in the past few years since downloads came along. Since downloads are cheaper than the records prior to the introduction of the format. So a record that sold 1 million copies precisely. In the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's made more money than a download record selling the same. Also before downloads, records were deleted so a record selling a huge amount couldn't stay in the shops long and often the record company restricted sending copies out of the big sellers to open up the market for new tracks. This changed with the download market and records now continue to sell. This means that over a long time even a modest selling record in the day can still have the tag "million seller" applied to it. However streaming is even worse for paying out and so a 1 million stream of even allowed streams is as low or lower than the download, so the status of the term "million seller" become pointless. People still have to pay a subscription fee in order to listen to a track which is counted as streaming data and also the OCC use a much lower calculation of 100 streams per unit of sale which effectively reduces significantly the effect of possible bias in the charts caused by people just skipping through a track. Singles sales figures should also accurately reflect the way the charts are calculated and reflect changes in the way people access music whether it be downloading or streaming. This post has been edited by slowdown73: 7th January 2015, 01:37 PM |
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7th January 2015, 01:53 PM
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#17
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Baby Reindeer
Joined: 9 March 2008
Posts: 13,316 User: 5,567
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It should be sales only. Including streaming points basically invalidates the whole point of a million-seller.
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7th January 2015, 03:36 PM
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#18
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 you never forget your first time...
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 19 April 2011 Posts: 121,803 User: 13,530 
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Streaming should absolutely count IMO. It's obviously being seen as the way forward like downloads were, obviously they're quite different as you're not actually buying things with streaming but it still counts to the chart and it's quite confusing as the OCC are having one rule for this, and one rule for that, and it's hard to know what counts to what. I think the main list should include streams but a side list can be the sales-only million sellers.
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7th January 2015, 03:40 PM
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#19
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BuzzJack Idol
Joined: 8 December 2010
Posts: 50,985 User: 12,472
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QUOTE(Jay ジ @ Jan 7 2015, 07:03 AM) It's all a problem with terminology and I think it just needs to be changed asap. Precisely! It's annoying to see the amount of people saying "clue's in the name: million sellers" when all that needs doing is the terminology changing. I do agree that the OCC should keep us informed on how songs are selling and show us sales-only million sellers but if the chart is including sales and streams, then 100% this should be the same when it comes to "million chart unit sellers" or whatever they decide to change the name to. QUOTE(Eric_Blob @ Jan 7 2015, 09:35 AM) On the other hand, if you include streaming, it'll be easier than ever for songs to get a million. Not necessarily if sales keep going down - it won't be like it is at the moment where both sales and streams are doing well in 'x' years time. |
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7th January 2015, 04:37 PM
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#20
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,851 User: 17,376
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such support for streaming data!
Why not just have an all-time chart for streaming totals? It's pure, forever, nothing else can impact on it, and it's a level playing-field for all from 2014 to the end of streaming (presumably forever). Fave oldies will gradually go up the chart eventually. Why does nobody want this? Cos it's boring, that's why! Nobody cares how many times a record has been listened to, so why should they care if that is or isn't converted into "sales". Illogical...captain! 
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