  |
 EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June |
| Track this thread - Email this thread - Print this thread - Download this thread - Subscribe to this forum |
 Nov 17 2017, 01:10 PM
Post
#1101
|
|
 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,793 User: 17,376 
  
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 17 2017, 10:12 AM)  I guess we'll just have to wait to see which of us can say 'told you so' then.  Either way though, I would hope that even the most ardent Remainers wouldn't want to see Britain fail to prosper after Brexit? well duuuuuuh! Why do you think we are so vocal? because we want a shitty third-rate country led by morons? It's precisely because we see the useless ill-prepared, lying bunch of billionaires and millionaires with agendas who are in control of the process that we are so concerned about what a crap job they are doing to take care of the future of the UK. We aren't fighting out of petulant childish notions of winning or losing, we are arguing to try and limit the inevitable damage as much as possible. Davy Davy is meanwhile trying as expected to blame the EU for not doing exactly what he wants them to do (and what he promised and assured us they would do) which is roll over and give us what we need. What we need and what we get are not necessarily going to be the same thing while idiots like him are in charge, blinded to reality. |
 |
 
|
|
Nov 17 2017, 03:35 PM
Post
#1102
|
|
 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 17 2017, 01:10 PM) well duuuuuuh! Why do you think we are so vocal? because we want a shitty third-rate country led by morons? It's precisely because we see the useless ill-prepared, lying bunch of billionaires and millionaires with agendas who are in control of the process that we are so concerned about what a crap job they are doing to take care of the future of the UK. We aren't fighting out of petulant childish notions of winning or losing, we are arguing to try and limit the inevitable damage as much as possible. Davy Davy is meanwhile trying as expected to blame the EU for not doing exactly what he wants them to do (and what he promised and assured us they would do) which is roll over and give us what we need. What we need and what we get are not necessarily going to be the same thing while idiots like him are in charge, blinded to reality. I don't see who else could do any better on our behalf though, given the EU's intransigence - insisting on a divorce bill they cannot even itemize, let alone justify. The last thing we need is an agreement which has us in virtually the same position as before 23/6, without even the limited influence we had before. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 17 2017, 03:46 PM
Post
#1103
|
|
 Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,007 User: 18,639
      
|
Before 1/2 and 1/2 of the nations voted in a non binding referendum and when they were not voting for a Hard Brexit? Take away the support of those not supporting Hard Brexit, take away the racist element, and what do you have??
Nowhere NEAR a 60 somethin majority and 3/4 of the nations. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 17 2017, 11:31 PM
Post
#1104
|
|
 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,647 User: 3,272
    
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 17 2017, 03:35 PM) I don't see who else could do any better on our behalf though, given the EU's intransigence - insisting on a divorce bill they cannot even itemize, let alone justify. The last thing we need is an agreement which has us in virtually the same position as before 23/6, without even the limited influence we had before. How many more times? The EU negotiators are working on behalf of 27 governments. Those governments have to get any deal passed by their national parliaments. Each of those governments will be up for re-election in the next few years. Put it another way. What would you have wanted the UK government to do if Scotland had voted for independence? |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 06:43 AM
Post
#1105
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Buttered Muffin @ Nov 17 2017, 03:46 PM) Before 1/2 and 1/2 of the nations voted in a non binding referendum and when they were not voting for a Hard Brexit? Take away the support of those not supporting Hard Brexit, take away the racist element, and what do you have?? Fantasy psephology?  QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 17 2017, 11:31 PM) How many more times? The EU negotiators are working on behalf of 27 governments. Those governments have to get any deal passed by their national parliaments. Each of those governments will be up for re-election in the next few years. Put it another way. What would you have wanted the UK government to do if Scotland had voted for independence? Your first point relates to one of reasons for disliking the EU. 'Too many cooks spoil the broth'. There is so much inertia in the EU's institutions that it is practically helpless in the face of rapidly changing circumstances. Re point 2 - England would gain significantly, as it would no longer be bound by the Barnett formula to subsidise Scotland. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 10:55 AM
Post
#1106
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,647 User: 3,272
|
That wasn't the question. The question is about whether you would have expected the government to put the interests of the remainder of the UK first.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 02:28 PM
Post
#1107
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 18 2017, 10:55 AM) That wasn't the question. The question is about whether you would have expected the government to put the interests of the remainder of the UK first. Yes. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 02:47 PM
Post
#1108
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,793 User: 17,376
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 17 2017, 03:35 PM) I don't see who else could do any better on our behalf though, given the EU's intransigence - insisting on a divorce bill they cannot even itemize, let alone justify. The last thing we need is an agreement which has us in virtually the same position as before 23/6, without even the limited influence we had before. They have an itemised bill. It comes to around 60billion. The argument from Divvy davy is that the UK agreement for future programmes to benefit the EU (including the UK) doesn't count anymore because we are leaving. Ireland also wants concrete written guarantees from the UK government, not vague vacuous promises that everything will be fine let's just get on with the trade talks before we commit to anything in writing. In other words, Davies is not prepared to make guarantees even this late in the day. What he SHOULD be asking himself, is... Is 40billion spread out over a long period of time that we have (apparently) committed towards during our membership going to come to more than having substantial trade barriers with our largest market by far for the forseeable future? If the answer is probably we will come out of it much worse off financially and economically over the long haul (and no-one in the rest of the world will trust UK guarantees on anything) then that's a bullet that has to be bitten and blaming the EU is pointless because it doesn't change hard reality (as we always said it would, and Leavers lied about). The Netherlands, BTW, are making arrangements now to have a hard Brexit border set up, at great expense - a helluva lotta trade between the EU and UK passes through them, and it will require a LOT of extra bureaucracy costs on industry. So all this BS about the EU caving in is just nonsense. As I keep hinting, the rich Tories actually WANT a hard Brexit because they think they will be able to go mad with power and rewrite the UK politically in their favour. What they don't understand is that they are going to harm the poorer ends of society and they will be absolutely crucified once it becomes apparent how much they deceived the electorate and took a wafer-thin referendum result and made it a mission statement that failed to address the well-being of the UK for decades to come. (NOTE: with Corbyn assistance, but he won't get the blame, they will) |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 03:16 PM
Post
#1109
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,647 User: 3,272
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 18 2017, 02:28 PM) Yes. Precisely. And the EU are doing exactly the same thing in prioritising their members' interests. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 03:25 PM
Post
#1110
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 18 2017, 03:16 PM) Precisely. And the EU are doing exactly the same thing in prioritising their members' interests. As I thought - a trick (or at least leading) question.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 03:26 PM
Post
#1111
|
|
|
Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,007 User: 18,639
|
And accept that Mad May does NOT have the mandate to force us ou of the EU, especially not for a Hard Brexit. No one voted for that.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 05:00 PM
Post
#1112
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,793 User: 17,376
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 18 2017, 03:25 PM) As I thought - a trick (or at least leading) question. You mean you didn't think it was just using logic to make a point? 
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 05:39 PM
Post
#1113
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,647 User: 3,272
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 18 2017, 03:25 PM) As I thought - a trick (or at least leading) question. It's not my fault if you failed to spot the massive neon sign saying "TRAP". |
|
|
|
|
Nov 18 2017, 07:55 PM
Post
#1114
|
|
|
Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,053 User: 3,474
  
|
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 18 2017, 02:47 PM) They have an itemised bill. It comes to around 60billion. The argument from Divvy davy is that the UK agreement for future programmes to benefit the EU (including the UK) doesn't count anymore because we are leaving. Ireland also wants concrete written guarantees from the UK government, not vague vacuous promises that everything will be fine let's just get on with the trade talks before we commit to anything in writing. In other words, Davies is not prepared to make guarantees even this late in the day. What he SHOULD be asking himself, is... Is 40billion spread out over a long period of time that we have (apparently) committed towards during our membership going to come to more than having substantial trade barriers with our largest market by far for the forseeable future? If the answer is probably we will come out of it much worse off financially and economically over the long haul (and no-one in the rest of the world will trust UK guarantees on anything) then that's a bullet that has to be bitten and blaming the EU is pointless because it doesn't change hard reality (as we always said it would, and Leavers lied about). The Netherlands, BTW, are making arrangements now to have a hard Brexit border set up, at great expense - a helluva lotta trade between the EU and UK passes through them, and it will require a LOT of extra bureaucracy costs on industry. So all this BS about the EU caving in is just nonsense. As I keep hinting, the rich Tories actually WANT a hard Brexit because they think they will be able to go mad with power and rewrite the UK politically in their favour. What they don't understand is that they are going to harm the poorer ends of society and they will be absolutely crucified once it becomes apparent how much they deceived the electorate and took a wafer-thin referendum result and made it a mission statement that failed to address the well-being of the UK for decades to come. (NOTE: with Corbyn assistance, but he won't get the blame, they will) Rotterdam are pure gunning to pick up the baton dropped by Southampton. They’ve sniffed blood and want to strip from British ports as much business as possible and damn right too. There’s pan-European business who use the UK as their EU port of entry now rapidly working out if they need to adjust their supply chain to involve Rotterdam instead. If we get driven over the cliff, a whole industry is at stake and we don’t have many of them left |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 07:22 AM
Post
#1115
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Buttered Muffin @ Nov 18 2017, 03:26 PM) And accept that Mad May does NOT have the mandate to force us ou of the EU, especially not for a Hard Brexit. No one voted for that. She *does* have a mandate to take us out of the EU - have you forgotten 23/6/16? As for a Hard Brexit - since the nature of the Brexit was not raised in the referendum, how come you believe you know the answer, when no-one else does? Either way though, if the EU continues to make zero concessions, it may force us into a hard brexit that will benefit neither side. QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 18 2017, 05:39 PM) It's not my fault if you failed to spot the massive neon sign saying "TRAP". Then it's fortunate that I did spot it. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 07:39 AM
Post
#1116
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
Facebook admits it was targeted by Russian trolls in run-up to Brexit referendum
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-50...ian-trolls.html ***************** Given that a majority of Brexit supporters are from the older generations, it seems odd to target social media media sites which are largely the domain of the young. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 09:14 AM
Post
#1117
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,793 User: 17,376
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 19 2017, 07:39 AM) Facebook admits it was targeted by Russian trolls in run-up to Brexit referendum http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-50...ian-trolls.html ***************** Given that a majority of Brexit supporters are from the older generations, it seems odd to target social media media sites which are largely the domain of the young. Makes perfect sense to target the younger, the older will already have made up their minds after being targeted for a 2 or 3 decades by The Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and The Sun - none of which younger people buy. The bigger point, is how much influence did it have on the final vote - it's been viewed as a trial run for the US presidential election, and worked beautifully in both cases from the POV of Russia. 2 fer 2. As I keep repeating ad nauseum, the Brexit campaigners DID NOT CLAIM THAT A HARD BREXIT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. They claimed the absolute reverse, and that the EU would give us concessions, and that we could stay in the single market or get a Norway-style deal, and it would all be wrapped up inside 2 years with no economic consequences. THAT'S what was claimed, go back and watch any broadcasts, any Tv shows and right-wing press propaganda and refresh your mind if you have trouble remembering events from 18 months ago. Nothing wrong with my memory of what Davies, Johnson, Gove, Fox & farage all claimed, and all lied about. If they didn't lie, then they are utterly useless at their jobs. One or the other. All those "Project Fear" statements coming true in spades.... |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 10:14 AM
Post
#1118
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 19 2017, 09:14 AM) Makes perfect sense to target the younger, the older will already have made up their minds after being targeted for a 2 or 3 decades by The Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and The Sun - none of which younger people buy. The bigger point, is how much influence did it have on the final vote - it's been viewed as a trial run for the US presidential election, and worked beautifully in both cases from the POV of Russia. 2 fer 2. Surely that depends on what you assume the Russians were trying to do? Either way, it's hard to imagine their influence being enough to change the overall result. QUOTE As I keep repeating ad nauseum, the Brexit campaigners DID NOT CLAIM THAT A HARD BREXIT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. They claimed the absolute reverse, and that the EU would give us concessions, and that we could stay in the single market or get a Norway-style deal, and it would all be wrapped up inside 2 years with no economic consequences. THAT'S what was claimed, go back and watch any broadcasts, any Tv shows and right-wing press propaganda and refresh your mind if you have trouble remembering events from 18 months ago. Nothing wrong with my memory of what Davies, Johnson, Gove, Fox & farage all claimed, and all lied about. If they didn't lie, then they are utterly useless at their jobs. One or the other. All those "Project Fear" statements coming true in spades.... ISTM what happened is that we merely underestimated how spiteful the EU would be over the loss of their 'magic money tree'. If we had not been a major net contributor, we'd have felt their boot up our ass on Jun 24th 2016! |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 10:25 AM
Post
#1119
|
|
|
BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,647 User: 3,272
|
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 19 2017, 10:14 AM) Surely that depends on what you assume the Russians were trying to do? Either way, it's hard to imagine their influence being enough to change the overall result. ISTM what happened is that we merely underestimated how spiteful the EU would be over the loss of their 'magic money tree'. If we had not been a major net contributor, we'd have felt their boot up our ass on Jun 24th 2016! IT IS NOT BEING SPITEFUL. IT IS WORKING IN THE INTERESTS OF ITS MEMBERS. Sorry for shouting, but the message just doesn't seem to be getting through. Why are you advocating cruelty to donkeys? |
|
|
|
|
Nov 19 2017, 11:28 AM
Post
#1120
|
|
|
Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
|
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 19 2017, 10:25 AM) IT IS NOT BEING SPITEFUL. IT IS WORKING IN THE INTERESTS OF ITS MEMBERS. Sorry for shouting, but the message just doesn't seem to be getting through. There's a difference between 'working for its members' and 'being as awkward as possible' though - unless they make some concessions, how can they expect us to reciprocate? QUOTE Why are you advocating cruelty to donkeys? What's with the non sequitur? |
|
|
|
|
| Time is now: 16th April 2024 - 09:21 AM |
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 BuzzJack.com
About | Contact | Advertise | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
