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 The Official Labour Foot-Shoot Thread, Mk II |
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 10th October 2023, 09:50 PM
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#1761
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 37,151 User: 3,272 
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Under-promise and over-deliver is a useful piece of advice for politicians. Johnson ignored that. He promised the Earth and delivered less than nothing.
If Labour win the election, one of Starmer's aims has to be to restore at least some faith in politicians. That means he has to follow the advice I cited above. If he over-promises and under-delivers, we are well and truly f*cked. |
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10th October 2023, 11:17 PM
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#1762
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 Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 47,331 User: 5,138
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 10 2023, 09:25 PM)  I found it pretty uninspiring and dull tbh, they aren't going to be able to do anything radical and therefore little fundamentally will actually change. But yeah, whatever - if it means we are rid of the Tories for a decade (hopefully more) I'm IN. It’s always the same in British politics isn’t it? The tories get away with being radical and the left has to comply and work within the strict boundaries they create! |
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11th October 2023, 09:29 PM
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#1763
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 #38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,271 User: 7,561
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 10 2023, 10:50 PM) Under-promise and over-deliver is a useful piece of advice for politicians. Johnson ignored that. He promised the Earth and delivered less than nothing. If Labour win the election, one of Starmer's aims has to be to restore at least some faith in politicians. That means he has to follow the advice I cited above. If he over-promises and under-delivers, we are well and truly f*cked. That was Ed Miliband's mantra! You're right, keeping expectations low can be a very clever tactic, but it's just not very inspiring. I would much prefer someone to be honest and say 'well we may not achieve all of these things but we will at least AIM towards them'. Starmer appears timid and defeatist, which is convenient for those who are resistent to change. In 1979 there was (like it or not) definitely a public appetite for the type of politics that Thatcher embodied following the Winter of Discontent, which marked the start of the 'neoliberal' economic era, just like the public mood following World War 2 in 1945 was for 'winning the peace' by creating a more fair and equal society. I believe that we have entered another turning point, but nobody yet has stepped up with the confidence and boldness to tap into that change. |
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14th October 2023, 03:03 PM
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#1764
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 21 November 2009
Posts: 8,873 User: 10,030
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 11 2023, 10:29 PM) That was Ed Miliband's mantra! You're right, keeping expectations low can be a very clever tactic, but it's just not very inspiring. I would much prefer someone to be honest and say 'well we may not achieve all of these things but we will at least AIM towards them'. Starmer appears timid and defeatist, which is convenient for those who are resistent to change. In 1979 there was (like it or not) definitely a public appetite for the type of politics that Thatcher embodied following the Winter of Discontent, which marked the start of the 'neoliberal' economic era, just like the public mood following World War 2 in 1945 was for 'winning the peace' by creating a more fair and equal society. I believe that we have entered another turning point, but nobody yet has stepped up with the confidence and boldness to tap into that change. In the current climate that is not a good tactic to get into power or to maintain it. People will hold you to those aims even if you have said you may not be able to achieve them. Media will have a field day as well "Labour fails yet another election promise" etc. even if promise isn't true. Whilst it would be nice to have a massive polticial swing with a charasmatic and motivated leader, I feel that the way Starmer is playing the game is the better option for getting into power. Coming across as the complete opposite of the messes we have seen, particularly Boris Johnson, will appeal more to voters than yet another "charlatan" or politican who promises big. As Suedehead2 has said, under-promise and over-deliver. We'll hopefully see things improve for many people during the first labour term which will set them up well for the 2nd election. The NHS in particular is something that will improve massively under a labour government IMO and will be a key factor to improving people's lives (decreasing wait times for treatment, better funding and staffing etc). This post has been edited by Envoirment: 14th October 2023, 03:03 PM |
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17th October 2023, 06:57 AM
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#1765
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 47,331 User: 5,138
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‘In the current climate’ is the main part of the point if this was a government who had done even a relatively good job against a Starmer Labour Party they would be neck and neck now it’s luck for Keir that we have had 13 years of this shit that he’s got a decent poll lead. Once again though my point would be why does the left always have to play within strict boundaries and let the right lead the agenda and be radicals?
This post has been edited by steve201: 17th October 2023, 06:58 AM |
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17th October 2023, 07:29 AM
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#1766
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Pronouns: he/they
Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,851 User: 12,929            |
Potential rumblings about a lot of Labour councillors resigning over Starmer's unequivocable support for Israel to do whatever it wants, largely because it's seen as Islamophobia. Some have already come out and they do have a point. Going too far towards one side or the other as a serious political party is damn stupid, I thought that was the lesson Labour had taken. also hear that a Labour source has described this as 'shaking off the fleas' which is disgusting no matter where you stand on the conflict. |
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17th October 2023, 10:14 AM
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#1767
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 21 February 2021 Posts: 3,741 User: 124,514
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QUOTE(steve201 @ Oct 17 2023, 07:57 AM) ‘In the current climate’ is the main part of the point if this was a government who had done even a relatively good job against a Starmer Labour Party they would be neck and neck now it’s luck for Keir that we have had 13 years of this shit that he’s got a decent poll lead. Once again though my point would be why does the left always have to play within strict boundaries and let the right lead the agenda and be radicals? I'd say it's our hyper aggressive corrupt media - they were taken by surprise by the closeness of the 2017 General Election and they threw absolutely everything against Corbyn after 2017, smearing him as an anti semite, day after day painting him as an enemy of Britain. And that largely worked - helped by Brexit uncertainty and the absolute unfathomable popularity of Johnson in some areas of the country. But if any leader in the UK dares go left again they'll be attacked viciously by the press and now we're counting well funded social media campaigns. In a world run by capitalism, anyone who dares challenge will be destroyed. And the capitalist right has the resources to do this. This post has been edited by Smint: 17th October 2023, 10:16 AM |
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17th October 2023, 01:19 PM
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#1768
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Oct 17 2023, 08:29 AM) Potential rumblings about a lot of Labour councillors resigning over Starmer's unequivocable support for Israel to do whatever it wants, largely because it's seen as Islamophobia. Some have already come out and they do have a point. Going too far towards one side or the other as a serious political party is damn stupid, I thought that was the lesson Labour had taken. also hear that a Labour source has described this as 'shaking off the fleas' which is disgusting no matter where you stand on the conflict. I was going to say before the last quote they probably are glad and hope this is highlighted the media. |
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17th October 2023, 09:14 PM
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#1769
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 14 2023, 04:03 PM) In the current climate that is not a good tactic to get into power or to maintain it. People will hold you to those aims even if you have said you may not be able to achieve them. Media will have a field day as well "Labour fails yet another election promise" etc. even if promise isn't true. Whilst it would be nice to have a massive polticial swing with a charasmatic and motivated leader, I feel that the way Starmer is playing the game is the better option for getting into power. Coming across as the complete opposite of the messes we have seen, particularly Boris Johnson, will appeal more to voters than yet another "charlatan" or politican who promises big. As Suedehead2 has said, under-promise and over-deliver. We'll hopefully see things improve for many people during the first labour term which will set them up well for the 2nd election. The NHS in particular is something that will improve massively under a labour government IMO and will be a key factor to improving people's lives (decreasing wait times for treatment, better funding and staffing etc). At the time of the last Labour leadership campaign, I was fairly confident that Johnson wouldn't be PM by the time of the next election. However, I still wanted Starmer to win as a leader whose style was the opposite of Johnson's. |
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26th October 2023, 03:16 PM
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#1770
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
Posts: 12,830 User: 10,455
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The shadow foreign secretary Rachel Reeves is in hot water following an FT article that alleges that she plagiarised from a number of sources, including Wikipedia, for her book "The Women Who Made Modern Economics". In the Before Times, plagiarism of this type would be enough to derail a political career (which is the reason why Joe Biden became president in 2020, rather than in 1988). In this case, there'll be a few passive platitudes about mistakes being made, likely with a bit of whataboutery and "something something Tory press" thrown in, and it'll be forgotten come election time. It'll probably double sales of the book as well.
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26th October 2023, 07:28 PM
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#1771
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 6 September 2017
Posts: 12,993 User: 39,568
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Oct 17 2023, 08:29 AM) Potential rumblings about a lot of Labour councillors resigning over Starmer's unequivocable support for Israel to do whatever it wants, largely because it's seen as Islamophobia. Some have already come out and they do have a point. Going too far towards one side or the other as a serious political party is damn stupid, I thought that was the lesson Labour had taken. also hear that a Labour source has described this as 'shaking off the fleas' which is disgusting no matter where you stand on the conflict. It’s so sad. After corbyn got so much stick for supposedly being anti-Semitic Kier should be getting called out for Islamophobia |
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26th October 2023, 07:51 PM
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#1772
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 37,151 User: 3,272
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Starmer's original statement was, at best, clumsy. Whether he meant it or not, he gave the impression that he thought Israel could withhold essential supplies from Gaza. From an experienced lawyer, that would have been an extraordinary statement. His attempts to clarify his thoughts have also been rather clumsy. Given what happened under Cornyn, Starmer is understandably cautious, but he has to be clearer in stating that BOTH sides have committed many acts in breach of international law.
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11th November 2023, 09:25 AM
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#1773
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
Posts: 12,830 User: 10,455
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I'm not too sure what's worse about this Tweet - the fact that the Labour MP in question opposes the conversion of a house into flats for people with learning difficulties (even saying that it would lead to a rise of anti-social behavior!), but that she was so proud of doing so that she posted it ON HER OWN TWITTER/X FEED! If a Tory had done this, we would be hearing about the Nasty Party for weeks.
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11th November 2023, 10:57 AM
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#1774
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 there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,480 User: 22,895 
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The only good point it makes is about the lack of parking as property for people with additional care needs might need quite a lot, and/or carers coming and going a lot. The rest of it reads like crap from prejudiced people in the area or folk worried about their own house value! Especially if they'd rather have a disused building than a building thats being used.
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16th November 2023, 12:58 PM
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#1775
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Pronouns: he/they
Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,851 User: 12,929 |
Major rebellion for Starmer in 56 Labour MPs and a number of frontbenchers (who resigned over it), not just including the left of the party (e.g. one of the frontbenchers gone is Jess Phillips, very much a Labour right figure, but also representing a Birmingham constituency with a lot of Muslim voters and known to be fairly independently minded besides), have rebelled against Labour's position of not backing a ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza war.
Kind of mixed feelings about this, I get that for politicos the opposition party's stance on a foreign war isn't that impactful and won't actually do anything right now, but it's also a pretty clear signalling of moral intent and foreign policy of our assumed incoming government and we know that a lot of people feel strongly about this. I know I certainly wouldn't prefer a Labour government to be taking the same stance that the UK and USA governments are taking on the war. |
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16th November 2023, 01:20 PM
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#1776
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 21 February 2021 Posts: 3,741 User: 124,514
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I don't see why Labour aren't voting for a ceasefire - is it to keep in the good books of USA (not that they regard us as anything like equal), worried about antisemitism smears as per the Corbyn years or do they really think that the response is proportional or not?
Good so many resigned though. |
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16th November 2023, 02:45 PM
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#1777
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 47,331 User: 5,138
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I would imagine it’s the middle reason - the left generally support the Palestinian cause and that results in the ridiculous antisemitism smears come from the right to prevent debate and so this shows they are with the establishment on the issue so look like a prospective party of government.
This post has been edited by steve201: 16th November 2023, 02:46 PM |
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16th November 2023, 08:17 PM
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#1778
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 WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
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QUOTE(Smint @ Nov 16 2023, 01:20 PM) I don't see why Labour aren't voting for a ceasefire - is it to keep in the good books of USA (not that they regard us as anything like equal), worried about antisemitism smears as per the Corbyn years or do they really think that the response is proportional or not? Good so many resigned though. It's politics. The story here is the SNP making an amendment that would embarrass Labour. From a political perspective, Labour have adopted the right stance based on their current position imo. Personally, if you believe you are a government in waiting, I think disagreeing with the stance the EU and US hold is the wrong move & there's nothing to be gained politically from this. From an ehtical and moral perspective? Yes, I get that and it is not the right one. There's no perfect position, but Labour have adopted the right one here. Jess Phillps has only resigned because she's been backed in to a corner by the SNP. |
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16th November 2023, 09:25 PM
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#1779
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Pronouns: he/they
Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,851 User: 12,929 |
QUOTE(Rooney @ Nov 16 2023, 08:17 PM) It's politics. The story here is the SNP making an amendment that would embarrass Labour. From a political perspective, Labour have adopted the right stance based on their current position imo. Personally, if you believe you are a government in waiting, I think disagreeing with the stance the EU and US hold is the wrong move & there's nothing to be gained politically from this. From an ehtical and moral perspective? Yes, I get that and it is not the right one. There's no perfect position, but Labour have adopted the right one here. Jess Phillps has only resigned because she's been backed in to a corner by the SNP. To be fair, the SNP's leader is very personally involved in this, I don't think embarassing Labour was his primary aim. I can also see why Starmer took this stance, it fits in exactly with his current strategy and there was too much to risk for not enough gain, though it's disappointing he couldn't find a middle ground that didn't result in him losing frontbenchers. However... Interestingly, polling data from the USA shows that Democratic voters are very strongly out of step with Democrat politicians' positions on Israel (and the Democrats have seen a shockingly huge decline in support among Muslim Americans particularly). Which I say, because you have to wonder if the same would be true for a Labour government dealing with this, because similar polling over here shows voters more in favour of ceasefire on the basis that it's the humanitarian response and not the geopolitical one, most voters not considering geopolitical concerns in foreign policy like this. I doubt it budges the polling needle on the whole too much because it'll be lower on the priorities list up against economy etc, but it's going to be a factor in 2024 elections unless there is a swift resolution and I do think that those who supported this war through tacit endorsement will not be judged well by history. |
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16th November 2023, 09:54 PM
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#1780
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WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 45,955 User: 88
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Nov 16 2023, 09:25 PM) To be fair, the SNP's leader is very personally involved in this, I don't think embarassing Labour was his primary aim. I can also see why Starmer took this stance, it fits in exactly with his current strategy and there was too much to risk for not enough gain, though it's disappointing he couldn't find a middle ground that didn't result in him losing frontbenchers. However... Interestingly, polling data from the USA shows that Democratic voters are very strongly out of step with Democrat politicians' positions on Israel (and the Democrats have seen a shockingly huge decline in support among Muslim Americans particularly). Which I say, because you have to wonder if the same would be true for a Labour government dealing with this, because similar polling over here shows voters more in favour of ceasefire on the basis that it's the humanitarian response and not the geopolitical one, most voters not considering geopolitical concerns in foreign policy like this. I doubt it budges the polling needle on the whole too much because it'll be lower on the priorities list up against economy etc, but it's going to be a factor in 2024 elections unless there is a swift resolution and I do think that those who supported this war through tacit endorsement will not be judged well by history. Yes, the leader is personally involved, but the SNP nor Labour set foreign policy. It's a political play at the King's Speech imo designed to cause political point scoring on a sensitive issue imo. I'm uneasy with the current approach Israel are taking and I think the barrage of bombing is inhumane, but Israel will argue they have no choice due to how Hamas have positioned themselves and not releasing hostages. There's no winners here. Then as a further side, it allows both sets of parties who are anti-semitic and islamaphobic to project their hate speech even to further press their ideology. Most of the West are seemingly taking the same position politically. I've no idea of the intelligence we have or the goings on, but I think within all these spheres there are enough intelligent people weighing up the lesser of the evils. Personally, I don't think the war will have any baring on a 2024 election, people will point to the Iraq War etc. of course but totally different in my opnion. The next big news event will happen and people will move on. |
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