Fairytale Of New York 'f-word' debate

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Fairytale Of New York 'f-word' debate, split from Spotify thread

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Tafty³³³ View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:02 PM Post #21
I found the love, I found the love in me Pronouns: He/Him Joined: 13 December 2007 Posts: 87,452 User: 5,042	Tbf to the person who edited it, it shouldn't be. Ughhhh. I hate the song so much lmao.


365 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:05 PM Post #22
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 11 October 2013 Posts: 31,028 User: 19,931	QUOTE(mdh @ Dec 2 2018, 09:57 PM) You've edited your original post now, but your previous statement that Fairytale Of New York "shouldn't be a thing" altogether is definitely an over exaggeration. I didn’t change or delete anything, I just added a bit to the end because the thread has been split now and I thought it looked odd for people who didn’t know it was a flippant reply to think i opened a thread just to say that. Which indeed would have been a bit extra. My point still stands though!


Steve201 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:08 PM Post #23
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,157 User: 5,138	QUOTE(Wasabi. @ Dec 2 2018, 10:02 PM) This is indeed correct. But I do think people are generally a bit more clued in and socially aware now than 10 years ago. It’s easy to say that people are being ‘snowflakes’ or are ‘too easily offended’, but the fact is that ‘bich’ is censored as it’s a misogynistic, the N word because it’s a known racist word, ‘dye’ because it is offensive to lesbians so why should a word used and known mainly as a gay slur be allowed in the radio? I know it’s meant to be a ‘silly fun song’ but it doesn’t make sense when even ‘chains and whips’ isn’t allowed in Rihanna’s S&M, and that isn’t even offensive. ‘Faggot’ is a word that even still today is used to bully or taunt gay people, I had it a lot in high school, so for a lot of people it is indeed triggering to hear it so brazenly on the radio with straight people shouting along ‘you cheap lousy faggot’ - I did a quick poll on Twitter just now after this came up and these were the results: I’m not personally massively offended by it, my first post was a flippant (half joke) remark, but I still find it a very odd double standard and 100% see why others are offended. Yeh true about people being more clued in, esp living in NI where we are denied the rights of people in the rest of the uk and Ireland with respect to gay marriage so social rights are centre of a lot of debate now(and I'm not gay). But I'm not sure if generally social issues have developed massively in over 10 years maybe more over 30 years (apart from gay marriage). I do love FONY though as a song!


Defaze View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:17 PM Post #24
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 23 September 2012 Posts: 2,177 User: 17,608	Offensive, obviously. I'll never not cringe at the lyric. I've never even been the recipient of it, and I still find it an absolutely foul word. Not at all surprised at the (straight) users that are saying otherwise.


T Boy View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:32 PM Post #25
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,606 User: 177	If we end up censoring faggot we then should really censor $lt whilst we’re at it. I’m in favour of not censoring tbh. Yes, the term is offensive. Yes, it shouldn’t be used as a slur against gay people. However, in the context of the song, it clearly isn’t intended as a homophobic slur. The word $lt in this instance is far more offensive but very few people get offended by that word. But it all fits within the context of the song. They’re not nice words (and they never were, even 30 years ago, before the it’s-2018-and-we-all-know-better brigade show up) but the context of the song is a couple having an argument. They’re not going to be saying nice things. Heck, the only reason faggot is even used is because it rhymes with maggot. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think most people see this as a big deal at all. If it does bother you, you could probably ignore it particularly when you know it was never intended to give the offence some are taking.


JackTheeStallion View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:41 PM Post #26
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 15 March 2006 Posts: 48,139 User: 223	QUOTE(T Boy @ Dec 2 2018, 10:32 PM) If we end up censoring faggot we then should really censor $lt whilst we’re at it. I’m in favour of not censoring tbh. Yes, the term is offensive. Yes, it shouldn’t be used as a slur against gay people. However, in the context of the song, it clearly isn’t intended as a homophobic slur. The word $lt in this instance is far more offensive but very few people get offended by that word. But it all fits within the context of the song. They’re not nice words (and they never were, even 30 years ago, before the it’s-2018-and-we-all-know-better brigade show up) but the context of the song is a couple having an argument. They’re not going to be saying nice things. Heck, the only reason faggot is even used is because it rhymes with maggot. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think most people see this as a big deal at all. If it does bother you, you could probably ignore it particularly when you know it was never intended to give the offence some are taking. I'm sorry but I think this is really weak. 'You could probably ignore it' - I have personally experienced straight lads chanting 'you cheap lousy faggot' and laughing about it, I'm pretty sure they are using it in the homophobic sense. There's plenty of paper thin excuses to be used, but I do actually find it triggering and I know a lot of other people do as well. It's not about being sensitive and fine to you if it's not a big deal, but it is to many people. I'm sure people would cope just FINE not hearing 'faggot' on the radio throughout the festive period personally. I also agree '$l*t' shouldn't be used either, I never understood why this (imo, frankly terrible) song got a free pass for such bullshit. It's a shame Radio 1 caved into the likes of Susan, 34, stay at home mum from Windsor who got angered by it. I think they should be more accommodating, censor that word, and to just ignore the straight people getting annoyed by it being censored, who are probably the same people who argue 'all lives matter' and 'why isn't there straight pride??' anyway.


iain View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:55 PM Post #27
BuzzJack Enthusiast Joined: 9 January 2007 Posts: 1,244 User: 2,478	QUOTE(T Boy @ Dec 2 2018, 10:32 PM) If we end up censoring faggot we then should really censor $lt whilst we’re at it. I’m in favour of not censoring tbh. Yes, the term is offensive. Yes, it shouldn’t be used as a slur against gay people. However, in the context of the song, it clearly isn’t intended as a homophobic slur. The word $lt in this instance is far more offensive but very few people get offended by that word. But it all fits within the context of the song. They’re not nice words (and they never were, even 30 years ago, before the it’s-2018-and-we-all-know-better brigade show up) but the context of the song is a couple having an argument. They’re not going to be saying nice things. Heck, the only reason faggot is even used is because it rhymes with maggot. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think most people see this as a big deal at all. If it does bother you, you could probably ignore it particularly when you know it was never intended to give the offence some are taking. Whether it was or wasn’t intended as a homophobic slur in the context of the song is debatable - when the song was written it was very much a common homophobic slur. The writers of the song were very much aware of the implications, even to the point where they changed it when singing it live in later years. If you’re not in favour of censoring, would you be in favour of hearing racial or antisemetic slurs on Radio 1 during the day, out of interest? The more pressing issue is how it’s perceived at the moment. I can tell you that when you’re a gay guy in a room with a bunch of straight people and they’re singing the lyrics with glee, they aren’t taking the word as anything other than a homophobic slur, which they’re now given licence to say, because, hey, it’s played on Radio 1 at 3pm on a Sunday. As a gay person, it’s exhausting having to continually explain why this word is offensive. But I’m over just “ignoring it”. This is 2018, there really is no excuse for people to pretend not to understand, or even acknowledge, how this word has been used to humiliate and degrade gay people over the last few decades. This post has been edited by iain: 2nd December 2018, 10:56 PM


P@ul View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:58 PM Post #28
BuzzJack Enthusiast Joined: 25 March 2014 Posts: 766 User: 20,742	In response to the first post about how straight people shouldn’t be using the term in a song. Would it be okay if a gay singer used it? Surely if you’re offended by a word, it shouldn’t matter who sings it? This post has been edited by P@ul: 2nd December 2018, 10:59 PM


JackTheeStallion View member profile	2nd December 2018, 10:58 PM Post #29
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 15 March 2006 Posts: 48,139 User: 223	QUOTE(iain @ Dec 2 2018, 10:55 PM) Whether it was or wasn’t intended as a homophobic slur in the context of the song is debatable - when the song was written it was very much a common homophobic slur. The writers of the song were very much aware of the implications, even to the point where they changed it when singing it live in later years. If you’re not in favour of censoring, would you be in favour of hearing racial or antisemetic slurs on Radio 1 during the day, out of interest? The more pressing issue is how it’s perceived at the moment. I can tell you that when you’re a gay guy in a room with a bunch of straight people and they’re singing the lyrics with glee, they aren’t taking the word as anything other than a homophobic slur, which they’re now given licence to say, because, hey, it’s played on Radio 1 at 3pm on a Sunday. As a gay person, it’s exhausting having to continually explain why this word is offensive. But I’m over just “ignoring it”. This is 2018, there really is no excuse for people to pretend not to understand, or even acknowledge, how this word has been used to humiliate and degrade gay people over the last few decades. You articulated the point I wanted to make much better, thank you :')


sammy01 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:00 PM Post #30
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 16 November 2009 Posts: 7,603 User: 9,988	My biggest annoyance these days is how people just want to be offended by anything. It is a word in an old song, it's not a personal attack on whoever is listening so don't take it as one. It is like those who critise friends in 2018 for certain 'gay' humour, just get a thicker skin and realise things are of their time. I'm gay and don't give a toss but then I'm not looking to be offended.


JackTheeStallion View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:01 PM Post #31
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 15 March 2006 Posts: 48,139 User: 223	QUOTE(P@ul @ Dec 2 2018, 10:58 PM) In response to the first post about how straight people shoudlnt be using the term in a song. Would it be okay if a gay singer used it? Surely if you’re offended by a word, it shouldn’t matter who sings it? Well, yes. But personally I find it more offensive if a straight person said it than a gay person, similar to how a black person may find the n-word offensive if a white person were to use it, rather than a black person. Not quite as extreme but still, you get my point. I still would be offended if a gay person used it as an insult or used it at all really, I think it's a gross word.


Brightest Blue View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:02 PM Post #32
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 10 April 2016 Posts: 27,025 User: 23,155	QUOTE(Jack @ Dec 2 2018, 10:41 PM) I'm sorry but I think this is really weak. 'You could probably ignore it' - I have personally experienced straight lads chanting 'you cheap lousy faggot' and laughing about it, I'm pretty sure they are using it in the homophobic sense. There's plenty of paper thin excuses to be used, but I do actually find it triggering and I know a lot of other people do as well. It's not about being sensitive and fine to you if it's not a big deal, but it is to many people. I'm sure people would cope just FINE not hearing 'faggot' on the radio throughout the festive period personally. I also agree '$l*t' shouldn't be used either, I never understood why this (imo, frankly terrible) song got a free pass for such bullshit. It's a shame Radio 1 caved into the likes of Susan, 34, stay at home mum from Windsor who got angered by it. I think they should be more accommodating, censor that word, and to just ignore the straight people getting annoyed by it being censored, who are probably the same people who argue 'all lives matter' and 'why isn't there straight pride??' anyway. Completely agreed.


JackTheeStallion View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:02 PM Post #33
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 15 March 2006 Posts: 48,139 User: 223	QUOTE(sammy01 @ Dec 2 2018, 11:00 PM) My biggest annoyance these days is how people just want to be offended by anything. It is a word in an old song, it's not a personal attack on whoever is listening so don't take it as one. It is like those who critise friends in 2018 for certain 'gay' humour, just get a thicker skin and realise things are of their time. I'm gay and don't give a toss but then I'm not looking to be offended. I find it really offensive when people say things such as 'get a thicker skin' and 'people just want to be offended by anything' to make people's opinions / feelings not feel valid. Good for you if you're not offended, just have some empathy and decency that some people do - why does it matter to you if people get offended by the word 'faggot'?! I don't really understand.


iain View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:02 PM Post #34
BuzzJack Enthusiast Joined: 9 January 2007 Posts: 1,244 User: 2,478	QUOTE(Jack @ Dec 2 2018, 10:58 PM) You articulated the point I wanted to make much better, thank you :') Haha, it took me a while to compose my post and then when I posted it I saw that you had basically posted the same thing before me!


365 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:03 PM Post #35
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 11 October 2013 Posts: 31,028 User: 19,931	Echoing what Jack said, iain’s post was fantastically worded. Sammy01’s post, as always, was tone-deaf.


Brightest Blue View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:03 PM Post #36
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 10 April 2016 Posts: 27,025 User: 23,155	QUOTE(sammy01 @ Dec 2 2018, 11:00 PM) My biggest annoyance these days is how people just want to be offended by anything. It is a word in an old song, it's not a personal attack on whoever is listening so don't take it as one. It is like those who critise friends in 2018 for certain 'gay' humour, just get a thicker skin and realise things are of their time. I'm gay and don't give a toss but then I'm not looking to be offended. That is offensive in itself EDIT: Jack beat me to it


Suedehead2 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:04 PM Post #37
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,676 User: 3,272	My favourite tweet of the day was the one suggesting that the line should be changed to "You scumbag you maggot, you taped over Taggart". As a gay man, I have never found that line offensive. It wasn't meant as a homophobic slur, it was just one of a stream of insults in the song.


Brett-Butler View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:06 PM Post #38
Howdy, disco citizens Joined: 16 January 2010 Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455	The funny thing about this controversy is that when the song was first released, it wasn't the "f" and "s" words that the media had a problem with, but "arse" - when The Pogues/Kirsty MacColl first performed it in Top of The Pops in 1987, it was this word that they were forced to change, whilst the other two went uncensored. Now you'd be surprised to hear the word arse censored for a radio version of a song, whereas the other two would not be considered appropriate in other circumstances. I always find the comparison between how this song is treated and another song that uses the same word, "Money For Nothing", interesting. In the later's case, the offending lyrics are almost always removed when they are played on radio, although in that case that song itself is over 7 minutes long, so the verse that uses the f-word can be removed without ruining the flow of the song whilst getting it down to a manageable length for the radio. It should be noted that Mark Knopfler no longer sings the original lines live, instead going for the less contentious "maggot". In both song's cases, I believe that the use of the word is appropriate given the context of the song - in "Money For Nothing" the song is sung from the perspective of a working-class white goods delivery man, whose not going to stick to using more polite language to refer to what he is seeing, and in "FONY", the offending word is used during a heated row between two bitter lovers, and as I'm sure we all know that when we are engaged in a bitter argument, we all use language that we would never, ever use in any other situation. As to whether it is appropriate for that language to be used on the radio, that's a question that I don't feel best placed to answer. I admit that when I'm singing along to the song, I can't bring myself to say that particular lyric, even though I have no qualms with listening to it. The last time there was a major attempt to censor that line, there was such a massive "Striesand Effect" that we ended up hearing the song, and the lyric, an awful lot more than we would have had the song been kept the same way that year (and in the years hence, I believe). If such an attempt was to be tried again this year, I imagine that the same thing would happen, because that's what human nature dictates what will happen.


sammy01 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:08 PM Post #39
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 16 November 2009 Posts: 7,603 User: 9,988	QUOTE(Jack @ Dec 2 2018, 11:02 PM) I find it really offensive when people say things such as 'get a thicker skin' and 'people just want to be offended by anything' to make people's opinions / feelings not feel valid. Good for you if you're not offended, just have some empathy and decency that some people do - why does it matter to you if people get offended by the word 'faggot'?! I don't really understand. Why does it matter if the word is in a decades old song? Are they saying it directly at you? Why do you feel you need to be offended on someone else behalf? If he happily accepts being called it in the song why do you need to be offended?


365 View member profile	2nd December 2018, 11:08 PM Post #40
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 11 October 2013 Posts: 31,028 User: 19,931	QUOTE(P@ul @ Dec 2 2018, 10:58 PM) In response to the first post about how straight people shouldn’t be using the term in a song. Would it be okay if a gay singer used it? Surely if you’re offended by a word, it shouldn’t matter who sings it? Gay people do use it, and no, it doesn’t offend me. There’s a big difference when it’s a group of straight lads chanting it as an insult. Like, a Black person typically wont be offended if they hear Jay Z use the N word, but if a white person says it, it is objectively racist.