Printable version of thread

Posted by: December Dong Dec 16 2019, 08:46 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/lib-dems-tories-split-vote-labour?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2HH0GlMUyDb_K-5Q0bvTszfiURI8KsNgzokuDXHUSfwj9DKn9R5tmmMqc#Echobox=1576520065

According to this article, the Lib Dems just help the Tories to get into power and split the vote. They say the party should disband into Labour and be a small moderate influence. Do you agree?

I completely agree. The Lib Dems are a spoiler, and until the voting systen is reformed, they are just enabling the Tories. They should join Labour. Jo's attacks on Corbyn scuppered his chances. Together, they would have won.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 Dec 16 2019, 09:17 PM

I've said no because Labour has enough liberals in the party and it's been that way since the 1920s when boys from the centre chose labour rather than were from the labour traditions simply to acheive power.

It has to be said also not all liberals are close to labour many are closer to the tories. They simply have a different tradition and philosophy to labour.

Posted by: Botchia Dec 16 2019, 09:36 PM

That's simply not true. Labour and the Lib Dems happily co-existed in the Blair years.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 Dec 16 2019, 09:37 PM

So Brexit has simply highlighted and caused the country to move to the right?

Posted by: LexC Dec 16 2019, 10:13 PM

Liberalism and Socialism are two perfectly legitimate worldviews to have of the world and it's entirely right that they should be embodied in two separate political parties.

And it's wrong to assume that the second choice of a lot of Liberal Democrat voters is always Labour, it's just as likely to be the Conservatives depending on where somebody sits on the political spectrum.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Dec 16 2019, 10:23 PM

In short - no. They're still an important force on a local level (they've still got 1/8 of all councilors in Local Government), and they're still a social-liberal alternative for people who don't like Labour or the Greens. If anything, there should be a more diverse set of parties of the left (and the right) represented - it's just that FPTP means that it's more likely to go down to a 1-party system.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 Dec 16 2019, 11:57 PM

I would argue that half the LDs are of the Orange Book pro conservative kind.

Posted by: Holly and Izzy Dec 17 2019, 06:00 AM

Correct. Especially the latter, it often isn't appreciated how many Lib Dem voters would never countenance voting Labour for economic reasons - a liberal worldview is pretty staunchly capitalist if on the gentler side of it.

However I think it would be realistic for them, and the Greens, to be talking with other parties during this parliament (Labour) about how best to ensure greater representation in parliament for the broader progressive movement, they're mostly matched on social issues and their policies often line-up with each other. My hope would be that each party is identifying target seats now and working together with local party apparatus to ensure few clashes and electing Labour, Green and Liberal councils where each makes the most sense, and building a spirit of cooperation to make the so-called 'rainbow coalition' a more likely reality in 2024. What's left of the liberal Conservative movement will be fleeing to the Lib Dems if the government fails.

Posted by: vidsanta Dec 17 2019, 06:02 AM

The idea that they are just Labour-lite is flawed - in some seats they get close, or even win, where Labour alone would have zero chance - my home seat of Cheltenham is a prime example. Also, effectively disenfranchising the centre is *not* the way to go - politics is already too polarized!

Posted by: Envoirment Dec 17 2019, 02:18 PM

No, not at all. What an absurd question.

Also, it was Labour who turned down a pact with the Lib Dems/Greens/Plaid. If they had accepted, they might've come out of the election a bit better.

Posted by: Jacob Marley Dec 17 2019, 08:44 PM

Of course not. I'm a Lib Dem member, I know plenty of people who'd vote LD but never Labour and vice versa, what we NEED is PR. They picked up over 3 million votes and would've had 70+ seats if our system was anywhere near fair. Lib Dems aren't Labour and Labour aren't Lib Dem, they can't just merge just because both sets of voters would probably prefer anything to the Tories right now. They could probably work out a coalition with the right timing and right sets of leadership however.

LDs were winning by-elections and gathering momentum over the summer. Unfortunately Jo Swinson didn't do the party any favours, I think she had the best of intentions and was probably a good MP but was never the leader the LDs needed, really wishing Vince Cable had stayed on until the end of the year now. I voted for Ed Davey originally in the leader election too. Not all on her though, the media all but ignored the Lib Dems in head to head TV debates, killing their numbers in the polls.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 Dec 18 2019, 12:52 AM

Who do you want to be the new leader?