The Official Labour Foot-Shoot Thread, Mk II

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The Official Labour Foot-Shoot Thread, Mk II

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Suedehead2 View member profile	21st September 2019, 11:23 AM Post #681
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,674 User: 3,272	QUOTE(Rooney @ Sep 21 2019, 11:48 AM) Michael - you are speaking absolute rubbish and being toally hypocritical. How was Watson attacking the party? By saying we should have a referendum before a general election? I think that is the view of many people. Or is it the fact he is actively trying to work with other parties to prevent a national crisis? It's utter bollocks. He wasn't even tried to be fired, he was actively going to be removed by people who are not elected and have no control over the party. If you think Watson is the reason for dropping in the polls then you really are lost in the romantisisation of grassroots socialism. Britian is not a socialist country waiting for a left wing leader to lead us to some sort of romanticised paradise. We are a complicated society of left and right wing opinions and a small Centrist Conversative middle ground. To get left wing policies in practice in a government you've got to compromise. I'll never fully understand the hate for Blair, so many people's lives changed for the better. He was not perfect, but who is. I think it's reasonable to say that a rather large proportion of voters have no idea who Tom Watson is.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	21st September 2019, 11:33 AM Post #682
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	QUOTE(blacksquare @ Sep 21 2019, 12:22 PM) Exactly this. People like to pretend they hate socialist policies and ideas purely because of the stigma attached to the word. It doesn't take much to imagine how the media or the right would portray the invention of the NHS in 2019 — impossible, radical, socialist. 100% THIS. Our extreme right media is utterly vile. It controls the narrative and it is right wing, pro business, pro rich, pro establishment. Corbyn played a blinder AGAIN!! He let the membership rage against a Tory-lite deeewply unpopular MP, but then stepped in and stopped it. This is thr OPPOSITE of Bojo and Cummings and the extreme right Tories. The media won't be able to make heads or tails of it!! They might just drop it entirely if they can't find a way to spin it to make Corbyn/ Labour look bad I imagine a quick, perfunctory report - oh, it failed (not mentioning it was Corbyn who stopped it xD ) and back to business tomorrow: i.e, ignore the nhs criticisms and ask what party does the man who highlighted the problems support? Labour? Oh, I guess his cririciisms are invalid. Now, let's go to a report where Tories attack Labour x.


Rooney View member profile	21st September 2019, 12:31 PM Post #683
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,601 User: 88	QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 21 2019, 12:33 PM) 100% THIS. Our extreme right media is utterly vile. It controls the narrative and it is right wing, pro business, pro rich, pro establishment. Corbyn played a blinder AGAIN!! He let the membership rage against a Tory-lite deeewply unpopular MP, but then stepped in and stopped it. This is thr OPPOSITE of Bojo and Cummings and the extreme right Tories. The media won't be able to make heads or tails of it!! They might just drop it entirely if they can't find a way to spin it to make Corbyn/ Labour look bad I imagine a quick, perfunctory report - oh, it failed (not mentioning it was Corbyn who stopped it xD ) and back to business tomorrow: i.e, ignore the nhs criticisms and ask what party does the man who highlighted the problems support? Labour? Oh, I guess his cririciisms are invalid. Now, let's go to a report where Tories attack Labour x. Honestly this is why I find the Corbynistas absolutely baffling. How is Watson deeply unpopular? The UK is not screaming for a socialist resolution. Yes voters might like socialist policies which is exactly my point I was trying to make before, you don't have a socialist leader deliver socialist policies, you need someone with is willing to compromise, lean on the Centre ground and then add the more left policies to the agenda. Corbyn as a leader is deeply unpopular, the polls tell us this time and time again. Why? because he lacks the consistency to attract the swing voter. You are right the media is very powerful and influences but that's just it isn't it, the media has already influenced the British public and it's why Labour under this current lesdership will never win a majority in a General Election in the short term.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	21st September 2019, 12:42 PM Post #684
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	Why? Because the right wing media has attacked every single day since he got elected. They are terrified of him. Ig they weren't, rhey wouldn't attack. Strange how when impartiality rules come into play he zooms up... He got the biggest increase of the vote since Attlee and got more votes than Blair. Sooo yeaaaah.


vidcapper View member profile	21st September 2019, 12:44 PM Post #685
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 21 2019, 11:58 AM) Not that. He attacked it and contradicted it on multiple, multiple occasions. And yet like Iz said, socialism is wildly popular and so are Corbyn's policies when stripped of their names. The only reason why the country is what it is? The extreme right media. They pushed the Overton window AND WILL KEEP PUSHING. What's right now will be left soon. How many GE defeats will it take before you realise you are not living in the real world?


Long Dong Silver View member profile	21st September 2019, 12:49 PM Post #686
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 21 2019, 01:44 PM) How many GE defeats will it take before you realise you are not living in the real world? And yet Corbyn won Tory rotten borough seats for the first time in 100s of years and got more votes than Blair. I can't take Rooney (or you lol) seriously on this. You both supported Mad May, the worst prime minister eeeever, until Bojo, over Corbyn You are both listening to the media waaay too much and can't be taken seriously r.e socialism.


Iz 🌟 View member profile	21st September 2019, 01:03 PM Post #687
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,420 User: 12,929	Rooney's kind of agreeing with you Michael, the media are far too powerful on one side, we all know this. The point is that the left, rather than screeching about it, need to come up with counterpoints to win them back. Saying 'you're all brainwashed' isn't helpful in deradicalising people, disproving right-wing talking points is. Particularly with snappy slogans that the average voter can empathise with, is what the left needs to look at. Fight fire with fire, because they aren't going to change their tactics. Most important right now in the British political sphere is present a united front. Labour aren't doing that.


J00prstar View member profile	21st September 2019, 01:09 PM Post #688
there's nothing straight about plump Elvis Pronouns: they/any Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,144 User: 22,895	I also would like to hear examples of how left (or 'far-left' - because of course we have to have a Both Sides equivalence, amirite? ) policies and what they hope to achieve are as bad as far right ones? Because honestly, whenever this comes up I see it discussed by people who treat politics like a game, who don't actually have a vested interest in it, and who equate policies on the one side like removing rights from women, gay people and nonwhite people as equivalent to making those who can best afford it pay a bit more tax and have a little less unearned wealth to leave to their children. I think most people here are pretty clued up on politics so I hope for clarity on that. To me coming at it off the bat, there's really no close comparison between the negatives that come with one and the negatives that come with the other. My initial position is that it only really benefits those on the right, or the extreme right, to argue that their extreme views are equivalent to similar extremes on the opposite end - it makes them seem less radical and out on a limb on their own. --- (on a separate point re Corbyn and Labour, all the popularity polls in the world don't erase the fact that Corbyn's Labour won 40% of the electorate as a first choice last time the UK had an election, right?) This post has been edited by TheJüpreme: 21st September 2019, 01:11 PM


Long Dong Silver View member profile	21st September 2019, 01:13 PM Post #689
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	QUOTE(TheJüpreme @ Sep 21 2019, 02:09 PM) I also would like to hear examples of how left (or 'far-left' - because of course we have to have a Both Sides equivalence, amirite? ) policies and what they hope to achieve are as bad as far right ones? Because honestly, whenever this comes up I see it discussed by people who treat politics like a game, who don't actually have a vested interest in it, and who equate policies on the one side like removing rights from women, gay people and nonwhite people as equivalent to making those who can best afford it pay a bit more tax and have a little less unearned wealth to leave to their children. I think most people here are pretty clued up on politics so I hope for clarity on that. To me coming at it off the bat, there's really no close comparison between the negatives that come with one and the negatives that come with the other. My initial position is that it only really benefits those on the right, or the extreme right, to argue that their extreme views are equivalent to similar extremes on the opposite end - it makes them seem less radical and out on a limb on their own. --- (on a separate point re Corbyn and Labour, all the popularity polls in the world don't erase the fact that Corbyn's Labour won 40% of the electorate as a first choice last time the UK had an election, right?) 100% this. It's why right wing Vidcapper always tries to equate the two, when the far right is so so sooo much worse than the mdoerate left policies of Labour ever would be in his warped worldview anyway.


Oliver View member profile	21st September 2019, 02:19 PM Post #690
Buzzjack's Finest Alcoholic. Joined: 19 November 2011 Posts: 10,365 User: 15,367	QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 21 2019, 01:42 PM) Why? Because the right wing media has attacked every single day since he got elected. They are terrified of him. Ig they weren't, rhey wouldn't attack. Strange how when impartiality rules come into play he zooms up... He got the biggest increase of the vote since Attlee and got more votes than Blair. Sooo yeaaaah. Corbyn got 12,878,460 votes at the 2017 election, Blair got 13,518,167 at the 1997 election.


vidcapper View member profile	22nd September 2019, 05:07 AM Post #691
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(Oliver @ Sep 21 2019, 03:19 PM) Corbyn got 12,878,460 votes at the 2017 election, Blair got 13,518,167 at the 1997 election. Technically, Corbyn got 40,086 votes (73.0%) in the 2017 GE, see Islington North. This post has been edited by vidcapper: 22nd September 2019, 05:08 AM


vidcapper View member profile	22nd September 2019, 05:17 AM Post #692
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 21 2019, 02:13 PM) 100% this. It's why right wing Vidcapper always tries to equate the two, when the far right is so so sooo much worse than the mdoerate left policies of Labour ever would be in his warped worldview anyway. You do remember that while Labour did get 40%, the Tories still beat them by 2.5%? The phrase 'far-right' is inappropriate in this context, as it implies the Tories to be fascist, which for all their faults, they are clearly not.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	22nd September 2019, 02:06 PM Post #693
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 22 2019, 06:17 AM) You do remember that while Labour did get 40%, the Tories still beat them by 2.5%? The phrase 'far-right' is inappropriate in this context, as it implies the Tories to be fascist, which for all their faults, they are clearly not. They suspended parliament, cut police funding allowing for violent fascist thugs to do what they want, fascist groups chant the name of Bojo, they use the media like in 1984, including the BBTory, and constantly lie. A rose by any other name... They got 40% after theworst EEEVER media and establishment blitz against the opposition party. It's a one party state media machine. Foe them to get 40% is incredible.


mald487 View member profile	22nd September 2019, 02:50 PM Post #694
BuzzJack Enthusiast Joined: 1 June 2013 Posts: 527 User: 19,091	QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 22 2019, 05:17 AM) You do remember that while Labour did get 40%, the Tories still beat them by 2.5%? The phrase 'far-right' is inappropriate in this context, as it implies the Tories to be fascist, which for all their faults, they are clearly not. The actions they have undertook in last few weeks would suggest that if not already far-right, they are at least well on their way. Suspension of Parliment to get through their wreckless version of Brexit that benefits them when the divorce agreement could have been settled in less extreme ways that would damage the nation considerably less is the definition of anti-democratic, no matter how much you try and twist it and play devils advocate. This post has been edited by mald487: 22nd September 2019, 02:54 PM


Long Dong Silver View member profile	22nd September 2019, 03:45 PM Post #695
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,089 User: 18,639	They are far right.


crazy chris View member profile	22nd September 2019, 09:09 PM Post #696
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 22,001 User: 53	So Labour will abolish ALL prescription charges. Good news.


vidcapper View member profile	23rd September 2019, 05:14 AM Post #697
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(Algernon Monqueef @ Sep 22 2019, 03:06 PM) They suspended parliament, cut police funding allowing for violent fascist thugs to do what they want, fascist groups chant the name of Bojo, they use the media like in 1984, including the BBTory, and constantly lie. A rose by any other name... They got 40% after theworst EEEVER media and establishment blitz against the opposition party. It's a one party state media machine. Foe them to get 40% is incredible. Then what does it say about a Labour leader who cannot take a lead in the polls despite this! [Answers not accepted : anything alluding to Big Brother control of the media by the Tories]


vidcapper View member profile	23rd September 2019, 06:02 AM Post #698
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	‘We will scrap Ofsted’: Labour makes radical election pledge https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/s...election-pledge 'Can't allow people to know schools in Labour areas failing, so we'll scrap the body that monitor them...'


Iz 🌟 View member profile	23rd September 2019, 06:35 AM Post #699
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,420 User: 12,929	or the current Ofsted system isn't fit for fair comparisons across all areas (not least because of all the stories you hear of teachers scrambling to be ready for inspection shows how it's failing as being a good barometer) and should be reformed at the very least. It's not like they're replacing it with nothing!


vidcapper View member profile	23rd September 2019, 07:55 AM Post #700
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(Izzy @ Sep 23 2019, 07:35 AM) or the current Ofsted system isn't fit for fair comparisons across all areas (not least because of all the stories you hear of teachers scrambling to be ready for inspection shows how it's failing as being a good barometer) and should be reformed at the very least. It's not like they're replacing it with nothing! Riiight - let's throw money at it, probably - that's Red Corbyn's answer to anything...