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Steve201
post Nov 18 2020, 11:56 PM
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Sounds like the perfect social democratic Tory party of your dreams there Rooney!
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Steve201
post Nov 18 2020, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE(Sixth Sense @ Nov 18 2020, 05:36 PM) *
Good. The more Labour infighting before the next election the better the chance of the Tories winning again.


Read more history books, if it wasn’t for the Labour Party the country would be horrible!
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Rooney
post Nov 19 2020, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 18 2020, 11:56 PM) *
Sounds like the perfect social democratic Tory party of your dreams there Rooney!



Not really, I'd prefer it the Party could just realise the previous leadership made some huge errors of judgement and the new leadership is trying to address these issues and win back the public trust. Of course mistakes will be made along the way too. But the issue isn't going away. The idea that the Party can forget Corbyn is not true. But sooner or later I think Corbyn will probably resign, a few no hopers like Burgon will hopefully follow and then a few others will probably have to make a decision whether they want a career in the Labour Party or not and how to behave if they do.

But here's the problem, everyone who has some remotely moderate ideas is labelled a Tory by the Left when people should be working together to you know, actually beat the Tories!

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Steve201
post Nov 19 2020, 10:07 AM
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Youre first paragraph really answered my tongue in cheek point and the part about 'whether they want a career in the labour party' equally symbolises the mentality of centrists which in reality can be either tory or labour they are all the same with the same values.

Its like the end of Animal Farm - 'he looked in the window and man and pig, all were the same!'
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Iz 🌟
post Nov 19 2020, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Nov 19 2020, 12:45 AM) *
Not really, I'd prefer it the Party could just realise the previous leadership made some huge errors of judgement and the new leadership is trying to address these issues and win back the public trust. Of course mistakes will be made along the way too. But the issue isn't going away. The idea that the Party can forget Corbyn is not true. But sooner or later I think Corbyn will probably resign, a few no hopers like Burgon will hopefully follow and then a few others will probably have to make a decision whether they want a career in the Labour Party or not and how to behave if they do.

But here's the problem, everyone who has some remotely moderate ideas is labelled a Tory by the Left when people should be working together to you know, actually beat the Tories!


Everyone with remotely progressive ideas is labelled a idealistic socialist by the Centre (egged on by the right) when people should be working together to actually beat the Tories - applicable to the last 4 years, and the Centre didn't, splitting themselves off into FPBE types or even jumping ship to the Tories.

I mean, the Left in Britain is going through some stuff - in that there's an immense feeling of betrayal, most commentators are calling for them to purge their opinions from public life and they can't really move on from their figurehead (as much as most of them are ready to!) because his legacy is being tarnished in ways that seem more like ensuring his ideas don't come back than it is punishing him.

Of course, the goals are shared (at least right now), but with that, there must be room in the party for old figureheads like McDonnell and up and coming left MPs like Nadia Whittome to push left policy from the sidelines, stuff that young voters and less well-off voters can get excited about - or indeed the result of a possible Labour government will not change enough from the Tory status quo to stop the Tories getting back in after a term. If the Democrats in America can do it with Sanders and AOC (whose energy certainly helped the Democrat campaign), then the Labour Centre would be mad to purge every left figure from any position of relevance, yet at the moment they seem bent on doing just that.

the ones who hurt their cause by speaking up should maybe lie quiet true though
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Rooney
post Nov 19 2020, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 19 2020, 10:07 AM) *
Youre first paragraph really answered my tongue in cheek point and the part about 'whether they want a career in the labour party' equally symbolises the mentality of centrists which in reality can be either tory or labour they are all the same with the same values.

Its like the end of Animal Farm - 'he looked in the window and man and pig, all were the same!'


Yeah but this is precisely why people swing vote (which crucially decide the elections in most democratic states) as the Centre Left and Centre Right ultimately show simialr principles. Sure it's not great for radicalisation, but you have to have larger voter appeal if you want to win an election. And not live in an alternate reality. I'm not against differences, which is true but Corbyn did not have the best interests of the Labour Party throughout his 4 year Leadership spell at all times.

QUOTE(💀 Mori 💀 @ Nov 19 2020, 10:37 AM) *
Everyone with remotely progressive ideas is labelled a idealistic socialist by the Centre (egged on by the right) when people should be working together to actually beat the Tories - applicable to the last 4 years, and the Centre didn't, splitting themselves off into FPBE types or even jumping ship to the Tories.

I mean, the Left in Britain is going through some stuff - in that there's an immense feeling of betrayal, most commentators are calling for them to purge their opinions from public life and they can't really move on from their figurehead (as much as most of them are ready to!) because his legacy is being tarnished in ways that seem more like ensuring his ideas don't come back than it is punishing him.

Of course, the goals are shared (at least right now), but with that, there must be room in the party for old figureheads like McDonnell and up and coming left MPs like Nadia Whittome to push left policy from the sidelines, stuff that young voters and less well-off voters can get excited about - or indeed the result of a possible Labour government will not change enough from the Tory status quo to stop the Tories getting back in after a term. If the Democrats in America can do it with Sanders and AOC (whose energy certainly helped the Democrat campaign), then the Labour Centre would be mad to purge every left figure from any position of relevance, yet at the moment they seem bent on doing just that.

the ones who hurt their cause by speaking up should maybe lie quiet true though


I'm all for some left-learning policies, I definitely think they are needed. I don't think it is Labour's idea to purge all left-learning figures, hell the Party is a left-wing party! The problem is, Corbyn is a backbencher. And his friends and associates claim to have the best interests of the "many" in their hearts, but they are just the same as everyone they seem to hate. And there are numerous examples of this from the likes of McClutskey, McDonnell etc. etc.

At the moment they are just purging people from the Party who don't have Labour's best interests in heart. You serve the party and themselves and their own personal idelogy. Corbyn is a problem for the Labour Party and one that is not going away as the guy cannot keep his mouth shut.
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Steve201
post Nov 19 2020, 05:37 PM
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I would hardly say he cannot keep his mouth shut he is one of the less in your face left wing types. I mean before 2015 most people or the average person had never heard of him.

This post has been edited by Steve201: Nov 19 2020, 06:21 PM
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Rooney
post Nov 19 2020, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 19 2020, 05:37 PM) *
I would hardly say he cannot keep his mouth shut he is one of the less in your face left wing types. I mean before 2015 most people or the average person had never heard of him.


It's not that he is always in the media as he is not, the problem is he does not have the tact to have a avoid questions or put out counter responses. The Tories knew how to wind him up and he would always bite back every time. Similarly the reason he was suspended from the Party is he came out and justified himself. I mean who asks the new Labour Leader a question in PM questions in their first session back?
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Rooney
post Nov 27 2020, 12:53 AM
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/n...ion-labour-whip

He can't even say sorry. Never ever been about the Labour Party, always about himself. He's retracted his comments but can't bring himself to say sorry. The guy is bizarre, it would have been so easy to get the whip back. Nope, it's all about himself. I genuinely think he believes he didn't become PM because of backstabbing MPs and the weaponising anti-semitism Jewish lobby.
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Iz 🌟
post Nov 27 2020, 03:09 AM
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He was suspended, the NEC let him back in. Starmer's withholding of the whip is double jeopardy.

Not best pleased with it dragging on but the way CLPs have been told not to discuss this on threat of suspension doesn't sit right either. Out of the 31 CLPs that have called for him to be reinstated, 17 voted for Starmer, so it's not entirely the hard left getting displeased by this divisiveness.

then again, popularly and on a broader trend than just this issue, the Labour Party is moving in the 'right direction' on a 55-40 basis, but for those on low income, that's a 40-55 basis. That does indicate a decent trend, but not the best it could be. Party is divided, it's moving away from the demographic that most needs its help, and it's not going to be fixed this way.
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Rooney
post Nov 27 2020, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE(💀 Mori 💀 @ Nov 27 2020, 03:09 AM) *
He was suspended, the NEC let him back in. Starmer's withholding of the whip is double jeopardy.

Not best pleased with it dragging on but the way CLPs have been told not to discuss this on threat of suspension doesn't sit right either. Out of the 31 CLPs that have called for him to be reinstated, 17 voted for Starmer, so it's not entirely the hard left getting displeased by this divisiveness.

then again, popularly and on a broader trend than just this issue, the Labour Party is moving in the 'right direction' on a 55-40 basis, but for those on low income, that's a 40-55 basis. That does indicate a decent trend, but not the best it could be. Party is divided, it's moving away from the demographic that most needs its help, and it's not going to be fixed this way.


Getting the whip back is easy - if he apologies (after he has retracted his comments) then it is done. Instead, he is taking the Labour Party to court because he says he agreed to say something about the EHRC report (the complete opposite of his previously stated views).

Unfortunately Corbyn's impact on Labour is like Trump's on America. Both are not going away. I could understand if either were actually good at their jobs, but both were barely even competent yet they were both shambolic and indept but have this indepth loyalty from the supporters. You are never going to get elected by just appealing to the
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Steve201
post Nov 27 2020, 10:14 PM
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Just admit the reality Rooney this isn’t about Corbyn for you or us it’s about ideology through and through.
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Rooney
post Nov 27 2020, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 27 2020, 10:14 PM) *
Just admit the reality Rooney this isn’t about Corbyn for you or us it’s about ideology through and through.


No, it's about Corbyn. I have nothing wrong with some left policies, the ones which are cost effective and have an impact on society. This is all about Corbyn, a man who is going to push us in to Tory rule for another 5 years despite the fact he is not even a Leader anymore.
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Steve201
post Nov 27 2020, 11:35 PM
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But your a Tory are you not?
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Rooney
post Nov 27 2020, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 27 2020, 11:35 PM) *
But your a Tory are you not?


I don't have any political affiliation, I've voted for 4 different parties depending on what I think suits myself and society best. Just because I have voted Tory before (under a completely different Leadership), does not make me a Tory.
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Steve201
post Nov 28 2020, 01:17 AM
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Fair enough I always remembered reading you favoured the Tory party!
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Anita Hanjaab
post Nov 28 2020, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Nov 28 2020, 02:17 AM) *
Fair enough I always remembered reading you favoured the Tory party!


Anyone who prefers Mad May to Corbyn is a Tory. Actions speak louder than words.
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