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EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June

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Suedehead2 View member profile	Mar 11 2016, 01:46 PM Post #41
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	I love the way they follow the words "in a further boost for the Leave campaign" with something about a person almost nobody has heard of. I'd also like to know whether Syed Kamall's idea of a "fair and balanced" immigration policy would have allowed his ancestors to come here.


Rooney View member profile	Mar 11 2016, 08:52 PM Post #42
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,597 User: 88	I think what worries me the most is a lot of older people will be swayed easily by Brexit once the campaigns step up. For me, a lot of pensioners are completely out of touch with how business works these days, and it's a completely different model to 15-20 years ago. Our economy would spiral massively if we left the EU. Not to mention the risk of jobs it would face. It's just bad for business in general. Very uncertain times ahead I think.


Popchartfreak View member profile	Mar 12 2016, 10:30 AM Post #43
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	a problem with older folks is always the "rose-tinted-spectacles" syndrome where they have glowing memories of when they were young and everything was fresh and new (forgetting the crappy stuff) and hanker for the good ol' days when things were better (for them). When I was young the older generation were always banging on about the good old days. These good old days were the Second World War period. I now have the pleasure of seeing people my own age rewriting their own personal history to create a magical fantasy land of milk and honey that never existed. It's called nostalgia, and we all have it for the good things we now miss, but I get very annoyed when people delude themselves with reality then and now (I don't suffer from rose-tinted-specs syndrome). Things are better for most people in 2016 than they were 40 years ago in almost every area, bar the environment. This is a fact. Things are not as good as they were 10 years ago, for quite a lot of people. This is also a fact. People wish to blame the EU for that rather than bankers and politicians and people taking stupid debt risks they couldn't afford. Yes we have more people incoming but there's also a couple of million UK outgoing, a low birth rate until immigration happened (and we need workers to provide taxes for the old people and those on benefits who can't or won't work). These are the sort of issues that need talking about sensibly and the Out brigade should be addressing the consequences of Brexit honestly (pro and con) rather than peddling vague nostalgic rose-tinted scare-mongering reality-distorting sound-bites.


Popchartfreak View member profile	Mar 12 2016, 02:10 PM Post #44
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	Michael Gove has just been sound-bited not denying he was the one that outed the Queen's hearsay opinions, just waffling on that he doesn't know where the Sun got "all" of it's facts for the story, and pleading that it's not important and that we should concentrate on the facts. Presumably whoever leaked the story felt that facts about the EU weren't required. Some sources report Michael Gove as a snivelling, hypocritical, talentless, policy-making disaster. I can't divulge where I got all of these hearsay opnions, but it's not important, it's far more important we have facts on why the EU is of benefit to the UK. I suggest listening to his own Tory leader if he's interested in learning more.


Popchartfreak View member profile	Mar 14 2016, 10:31 AM Post #45
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	Boris is ranting about Obama's anticipated opinions in support of the EU/UK. Waffling about the non-right of non-EU countries to not have an opinion about it (when it will affect them in some small or large way) shows a massive fear of expert opinion on the matter. We NEED to hear how the rest of the world view it in order to make a balanced decision about it. Boris, of course, didn't slag off his OUT pardner for putting words into the mouth of the Monarch, who may or may not have views on a topic that she is politically required not to publicly share. It's essential for our democracy (that he seems to think is so important and dear to him) that the Queen remain impartial. So, calling Obama hypocritical is a case of kettle calling frying pan.


Botchia View member profile	Apr 7 2016, 02:55 PM Post #46
I Drink Wine Joined: 12 April 2015 Posts: 10,484 User: 21,753	What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides.


Long Dong Silver View member profile	Apr 7 2016, 04:10 PM Post #47
Buffy/Charmed Joined: 18 April 2013 Posts: 44,036 User: 18,639	QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Mar 14 2016, 10:31 AM) Boris is ranting about Obama's anticipated opinions in support of the EU/UK. Waffling about the non-right of non-EU countries to not have an opinion about it (when it will affect them in some small or large way) shows a massive fear of expert opinion on the matter. We NEED to hear how the rest of the world view it in order to make a balanced decision about it. Boris, of course, didn't slag off his OUT pardner for putting words into the mouth of the Monarch, who may or may not have views on a topic that she is politically required not to publicly share. It's essential for our democracy (that he seems to think is so important and dear to him) that the Queen remain impartial. So, calling Obama hypocritical is a case of kettle calling frying pan. Also their greatest supporters are Murdoch owned media, an Australian, so that smacks of hypocrisy.


Popchartfreak View member profile	Apr 7 2016, 06:07 PM Post #48
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	QUOTE(burbe @ Apr 7 2016, 03:55 PM) What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides. Well, depends who's financing what really. I would be more prepared to call the Stay campaign more fact-based than the hysterically dumb Out campaign which the tabloid press swallow wholesale and push (for their own political reasons) so it's right the government of the day should get it's own version of events out. Today, frinstance, the Outers are quoting EU/UK tit-for-tat agreed recharges of hospital bills in each as if it were proof of foreigners carrying out health tourism under the Health Card thingy which I always carry with me in Europe - free medical services in the EU (and Norway and other non-EU states!) for British tourists, as the EU country recharges the NHS, while the NHS recharges EU citizens' home country. Trouble is....they don't quite understand that the NHS forking out £250 million to other countries is to the benefit of British living abroad, while the rather less £50m we charge should show: a) UK citizens benefit when abroad, not the reverse b) EU citizens can be recharged, that's the EU agreement. So desperate for BS headlines they don't even carefully think about their own arguments. I'm not saying the NHS always recharge (not everyone will bother with the card cos they know they won't be refused admittance), but that's a management issue not the fault of the EU or the nursing staff. EU hospitals manage to recharge...


Suedehead2 View member profile	Apr 7 2016, 07:40 PM Post #49
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	The lies told by the Out campaign would be laughable if not for the fact that so many people seem to believe them. A couple weeks ago, the Mail led with a story about would-be immigrants found is the back of a lorry and claimed that it proved that we don't control our own borders. Of course, it actually proved the very opposite. It's because we control our own borders that it was possible to search the lorry. If the Mail want every incoming lorry to be searched, perhaps they could let us know what that will do to process as the transport cost suddenly goes up. Perhaps they could also tell us where all those lorries will be parked while waiting to be searched. Then there was the nonsense about crimes committed by EU immigrants who already had a criminal record. What they haven't explained is how such people will be kept out if we leave the EU. Are they suggesting that all EU citizens will have to apply for a visa before visiting the UK? In any event, member states are able to exclude people with a criminal record if it is deemed to be justified. It is unlikely that any court would insist that the UK (or any other EU country) should be forced to admit a convicted murderer or rapist. If we leave the EU, it may be more difficult to get the information needed to exclude such people. It certainly won't be any easier.


Steve201 View member profile	Apr 8 2016, 08:52 PM Post #50
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,140 User: 5,138	No will get substantial votes because unlike the Scottish ref the majority of media/newspapers want to leave against the majority of MPs wanting to stay(not always a good thing)! Hilarious how the Outers are disgusted at the gov propaganda because it's against their opinion whereas in Scotland in 2014 they happily encouraged it!


Qassändra View member profile	Apr 8 2016, 08:57 PM Post #51
DROTTNING! Joined: 15 April 2006 Posts: 63,953 User: 480	Is it the majority of newspapers? I count Express, Mail and The Sun for Out, against The Times, The Guardian, The Mirror and the I for In, with the Telegraph probably going for Out in the end. The unspoken bias of the BBC and Channel 4 will be for In.


Steve201 View member profile	Apr 8 2016, 09:00 PM Post #52
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,140 User: 5,138	I assumed The Times would be an Outer, didn't realise Murdoch would let them be In. I say the Telegraph will certainly be Out as well.


Suedehead2 View member profile	Apr 8 2016, 09:01 PM Post #53
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	Has the Times declared for In? You've left the Star off the list of papers for Out. If the Sun counts as a newspaper, so does the Star. The Telegraph has published some vaguely pro-membership stories, so there is still a chance they could surprise us. Even so, the two papers with the biggest readership are firmly on the Out side.


Harve View member profile	Apr 8 2016, 09:11 PM Post #54
Cœur poids plume Joined: 3 November 2007 Posts: 18,129 User: 4,718	QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 8 2016, 10:01 PM) Has the Times declared for In? You've left the Star off the list of papers for Out. If the Sun counts as a newspaper, so does the Star. The Telegraph has published some vaguely pro-membership stories, so there is still a chance they could surprise us. Even so, the two papers with the biggest readership are firmly on the Out side. Indeed. Boris Johnson has given the EU plenty of praise in his Telegraph column. QUOTE The choice is really quite simple. In favour of staying, it is in Britain’s geo-strategic interests to be pretty intimately engaged in the doings of a continent that has a grim 20th-century history, and whose agonies have caused millions of Britons to lose their lives. History shows that they need us. Leaving would be widely read as a very negative signal for Europe. It would dismay some of our closest friends, not least the eastern Europeans for whom the EU has been a force for good: stability, openness, and prosperity. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...is-EU-deal.html


Andrew. View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 08:02 PM Post #55
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	If the UK voted out and Scotland had voted in would it necessarily be a good thing for the SNP? Polls have shown support for the 'yes' side is still lower than the 'no' (No has 47% in the most recent poll, yes 40% and the rest undecided) and the SNP can only have another referendum if there's substantial demand for one (although they'd probably push for one anyway) and if No won again even after a Brexit it would be quite damaging to the SNP.


Steve201 View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 08:44 PM Post #56
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,140 User: 5,138	Yeh it would be a big moment if the SNP called a second referendum which is strange that they've put themselves in a position where it may be called in two months if the No campaign wins in June.


Qassändra View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 09:09 PM Post #57
DROTTNING! Joined: 15 April 2006 Posts: 63,953 User: 480	I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable.


Doctor Blind View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 09:11 PM Post #58
#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue' Joined: 27 October 2008 Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561	QUOTE(burbe @ Apr 7 2016, 03:55 PM) What are people's thoughts on the government spending £9 million on their propaganda? It's a bit of a cheat since, as of next week, they'll only be allowed to spend £7 million on their campaign. How is this a fair campaign? If any leaflet were to be produced it should have been an unbiased set of facts made by an independent group (tbf that's probably hard to find) OR each a leaflet which argues both sides. I didn't get one (I did one that said 'EU: The Facts', that had very few of them and was produced by Vote Leave) The rhetoric of the entire campaign has been predictably driven by fear and scaremongering by both sides, and ultimately has driven my interest away from the debate. Basically the only reason we seem to be having this referendum in the first place is to settle some pathetic spat within the Conservative party that has little to do with bettering the lives of people in or out of Europe and essentially I just want it to go away. Anyway I still think the remain will get enough of the status-quo votes to secure a reasonable win, whatever the result however: the entire thing will mostly go down as a complete waste of time/money.


Doctor Blind View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 09:16 PM Post #59
#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue' Joined: 27 October 2008 Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561	QUOTE(Qassändra @ Apr 10 2016, 10:09 PM) I think support for independence might increase if we leave the EU though. Which would be deeply ironic in some ways, but fairly understandable. Good point - the whole we don't want to be ruled by Westminster mantra but perfectly happy to allow Brussels to have some control. I expect the SNP will be urging people to vote 'Leave' for this very reason. The cult of SNP is a weird one indeed.


Suedehead2 View member profile	Apr 10 2016, 09:27 PM Post #60
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 10 2016, 10:11 PM) I didn't get one (I did one that said 'EU: The Facts', that had very few of them and was produced by Vote Leave) The rhetoric of the entire campaign has been predictably driven by fear and scaremongering by both sides, and ultimately has driven my interest away from the debate. Basically the only reason we seem to be having this referendum in the first place is to settle some pathetic spat within the Conservative party that has little to do with bettering the lives of people in or out of Europe and essentially I just want it to go away. Anyway I still think the remain will get enough of the status-quo votes to secure a reasonable win, whatever the result however: the entire thing will mostly go down as a complete waste of time/money. That's exactly why we're having it. Unfortunately, that seems to be influencing the coverage of the whole debate, meaning we rarely hear from Labour and the lib Dems about why we should vote to stay in the EU. After all, the Tory Inners are hardly going to shout about the workers' rights that come from the EU. The biggest problem for the Tories is that, whatever the result, half of their parliamentary party will have lost the vote. That will stir up trouble within the party up to and well beyond their next leadership election. A referendum that was meant to settle the Europe question within the party may end up doing the very opposite.