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 Possible second independence referendum |
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 Oct 13 2016, 05:02 PM
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#41
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 BuzzJack Enthusiast
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 13 2016, 05:57 PM)  You said the EU wanted to be like a federal state. Germany is a federal state. Germany is not the only federal state in the world, and it's obvious that the EU is not aspiring to be like the German state, more like the ex-Soviet Union. And you haven't answered my question about the EU taking more powers. This post has been edited by PeaceMob: Oct 13 2016, 05:03 PM |
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Oct 13 2016, 05:04 PM
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#42
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 Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,077 User: 3,474 
     
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No it's an example of a federal state and guess what, you can pick any other and they work the f***ing same.
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Oct 13 2016, 05:10 PM
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#43
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 4 November 2014
Posts: 527 User: 21,342
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QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 13 2016, 05:59 PM) You're correct. It's nothing like Germany which is a federalised state, so why are you calling he EU a federalised state when it is not? The EU is a supranational entity that seeks to make it easier for Europeans to live, work, do business, travel and much more across the whole continent making us all more prosperous both financially and culturally. This kind of cooperation needs rules so that's what the EU does. Sales tax legislation is harmonised across the EU making cross border trade in the single market easier. Free movement of people and capital make it easier for European business to work across borders The ban on roaming charges makes life easier for tourists and this who live along an international border Co-operation on policing and intelligence mean that a criminal crossing a border is no barrier to justice or crime prevention Any civil society needs rules. The EU is no different. All member states have an input into these rules and the rights to seek opt outs, something the uk made into an art form. Prosperous, yeah try saying that to Greece and a LOT of young people in Italy and Spain having to cope with sky-high youth unemployment so rather than be able to work in their home country they have to migrate to the UK or Germany just to find any type of work for their self-respect. This post has been edited by PeaceMob: Oct 13 2016, 05:12 PM |
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Oct 13 2016, 05:14 PM
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#44
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,077 User: 3,474
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These are not problems of the EU's making. It responded poorly to the Greek issue, but it was domestic policies and issues that lead to problems. For example: The Spanish banks lent money to the construction sector it shouldn't have and in the financial crisis the bubble burst and the Spanish State had to step in - that's the root of their issues.
Stop blaming the EU for every single thing that goes wrong in Europe. It's not faultless, but it's certainly not to blame for the absolute majority of things it is blamed for. In fact, that they are able to migrate to other countries to work and provide for their families is an example of how the EU is actually effective. Instead of these people sitting on the Dole in Madrid, Naples, Seville or Rome they are able to find a job, pay tax in another member state (improving its economy and services) and then send money home to help their families which helps the economy in their home nation. Simple economics says that actually this is a huge positive of the EU and it's 4 freedoms. |
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Oct 13 2016, 05:31 PM
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#45
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 4 November 2014
Posts: 527 User: 21,342
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^
Wow, that was an unbelievably simplistic reason as to why Greece, Spain, and Italy are so economically ruined and they're not even the only EU member states suffering under the EU. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and join the basket case of the EU then knock yourself out, at least it will give England a good laugh at their expense. |
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Oct 13 2016, 07:50 PM
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#46
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 06:02 PM) Germany is not the only federal state in the world, and it's obvious that the EU is not aspiring to be like the German state, more like the ex-Soviet Union. And you haven't answered my question about the EU taking more powers. The EU only takes powers if the member states agree. Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that there is an army of bureaucrats in Brussels creating and enacting new rules without any input from member states, you are free to do so. Equally, I am free to give you the facts. The tragedy is that a momentous decision has been made by people ignorant of these facts. |
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Oct 13 2016, 07:57 PM
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#47
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376
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The EU didnt create the banking crisis. That is the root of all the current misery in Europe and the USA. That was created by stupid western politicians believing mega banks and the people who work for them had any other motive than getting rich, by hook or by crook, without giving a toss what it did to poor people the world over. The EU was complicit in going along with it, but as Ive explained time and again the roots of the banking crisis go back to Thatcher, her political loosening of the banking regulations, allowing mega banks that can destroy economies and allowing them to lend to people with no money and sell their crap on to other greedy mega banks. This was an invention of British bankers. If anyone is to blame, out of the whole wide world, it's the UK and the USA for inventing and pushing the whole corrupt system.
So the bamkers did it, and got away with it. And the rich people manipulated the stupid people by trying to blame foreigners for all the ills that they created. That's how it works in politics. That's how it's always worked throughout history. Check your history books. The history books for the early 21st century will say much the same thing. Foreigners are ALWAYS scapegoats in any major economic crisis or turndown. Always. We are all foreigners, or descendants of foreigners. This a fact. |
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Oct 13 2016, 09:14 PM
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#48
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 4 November 2014
Posts: 527 User: 21,342
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 13 2016, 08:50 PM) The EU only takes powers if the member states agree. Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that there is an army of bureaucrats in Brussels creating and enacting new rules without any input from member states, you are free to do so. Equally, I am free to give you the facts. The tragedy is that a momentous decision has been made by people ignorant of these facts. Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is. |
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Oct 13 2016, 09:23 PM
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#49
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 10:14 PM) Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is. No, it is a simple, easily verifiable fact that EU laws are made with the consent of member states. |
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Oct 13 2016, 09:34 PM
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#50
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 09:14 PM) Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is. The only liberal interperetations of the EU come from your Murdoch press. |
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Oct 13 2016, 09:35 PM
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#51
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455
 
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 10:14 PM) Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is. You are more than welcome to bring facts to the table yourself. We are all waiting. As many of the regular posters in the News/Politics forums are largely left-leaning, I'm always happy to see right-leaning posters contributing to this forum for viewpoint diversity, which I believe is important in our increasingly polarized times we live in. However, making spurious claims, then crying foul when called out on it, is not going to endear you to anyone. If you disagree with what Suedehead, or any other people debating in this forum, have to say, then by all means disagree. But please back it up with evidence, rather than ad hominem attacks. |
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Oct 13 2016, 09:37 PM
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#52
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455
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QUOTE(skankhunt42 @ Oct 13 2016, 10:34 PM) The only liberal interperetations of the EU come from your Murdoch press. You too, please. |
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Oct 14 2016, 12:38 AM
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#53
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 06:10 PM) Prosperous, yeah try saying that to Greece and a LOT of young people in Italy and Spain having to cope with sky-high youth unemployment so rather than be able to work in their home country they have to migrate to the UK or Germany just to find any type of work for their self-respect. And do you think they'd have been doing totally fine had they not been in the EU? |
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Oct 14 2016, 06:20 AM
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#54
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,034 User: 18,639
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QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 13 2016, 09:37 PM) You too, please. Which of the headlines from the Murdoch press would you like? It spent the last 15 yeqrs at least attacking the EU... |
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Oct 14 2016, 08:04 AM
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#55
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Cur poids plume
Joined: 3 November 2007
Posts: 18,129 User: 4,718
   
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 05:46 PM) What are you talking about, the EU is nothing like Germany. Are you telling me that the EU is not interested in gaining more power and control over its member states? The bogeyman that is the EU is not a single mass or the unified, gargantuan behemoth that you think it is. It's a complex organisation of 28 European countries, and many have very different memberships to others (Schengen, Eurozone, EU+EFTA etc.). It will be whatever these countries, together, want it to be. It's true that some people want a federal Europe but the EU is a democracy which affords sovereignty to its members (see Brexit!) - I'm very confident that federalism will only happen if there's a clear will to do so given how many hoops there are to jump through to any further European integration and a cautious attitude to EU enlargement and EU integration has been pursued for a number of years now. It's not a case of 'power and control'. |
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Oct 14 2016, 11:02 AM
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#56
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Poet and Storyteller
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 6,753 User: 166
 
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Oct 13 2016, 02:47 PM) I mean, that isn't really the definition of having a vote that 'doesn't count', particularly given the Tories don't have the most stable of majorities. But the only members who really have any power in the Commons are those Tory backbenchers who may "rebel" and, while those inhabitants of the back benches have changed a bit since June, that's still the case. If they are reasonably united on something then they can push it through without any opposition. It's why I hate majority politics. Of course, there is a flaw in my argument that the same happens in the Scottish Parliament where there is a huge majority for the SNP. |
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Oct 14 2016, 11:07 AM
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#57
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,077 User: 3,474
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The SNP are two short of a majority in Holyrood. They can't pass shit without someone's support. Unless you count the Greens as the SNP too. Getting the bill through parliament will be a breeze given the Greens are pro-Indy so won't need unionists support
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Oct 14 2016, 11:09 AM
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#58
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,077 User: 3,474
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Previous parliament was a different story. It's where an elected upper chamber would be handy for Scotland.
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Oct 14 2016, 12:03 PM
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#59
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(PeaceMob @ Oct 13 2016, 10:14 PM) Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is. Not sanctimonious at all no, just stating the reality that doesn't involve made-up bent-banana Johnson/Murdoch rubbish. If any member state doesn't agree to any laws and regulations they don't get passed, same with new members and power of veto. As we shall shortly find out when we try to do a trade deal that the whole of the EU is happy with. The Americans recent attempt to do a trade deal on their own terms didn't actually pass, as I recall, which bodes very well for the UK..... Feel free to single out any law you don't like (which May is turning into bulk UK law at the drop of a hat, the intent being to drop them one by one at a later date without Parliamentary approval, which overhauls the actual British Democratic Process - did any Leave voter indicate which laws they did and didnt like? I don't recall that being an issue, just vague generalisms about taking sovereignty, without actual instances given for the public to vote on). Feel free to comment on any helath & safety legislation you find offensive, or standards for purchasers of goods and services. It should be fairly easy to make a good case if you feel strongly about something following a bit of research.... |
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Oct 17 2016, 10:15 AM
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#60
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Poet and Storyteller
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 6,753 User: 166
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QUOTE(Silas @ Oct 14 2016, 12:09 PM) Previous parliament was a different story. It's where an elected upper chamber would be handy for Scotland. I didn't realise that - didn't pay enough attention in May then! |
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