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> The lovely discussion of all things EU and/or Brexit, Part V
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T Boy
post Aug 9 2019, 01:15 PM
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I’m fed up of being told to respect the referendum. We’ve wasted 3 years on it with no good outcome looking likely whilst we’ve had bigger problems that have gone ignored. Isn’t that respecting it enough? It’s ok for the voters to have been wrong.

But the idea of crashing out with no deal after not having a say on that is so depressing.
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mald487
post Aug 9 2019, 01:19 PM
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Bollocks to Brexit
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Suedehead2
post Aug 9 2019, 01:43 PM
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For many Leave supporters, "respect the referendum result" is the only argument they have left. All the other arguments deployed in the campaign have now been exposed as the lies many of us knew they always were. Trying to compare the problems of leaving without a deal with the hardships of WWII shows just how desperate they are for reasons to go ahead. Naturally, they overlook the fact that we only finished paying off our WWII debt fairly recently. If leaving the EU costs even a small fraction of the cost of WWII, it will be a massive price to pay to get the blue passports we could have had all along.
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Harve
post Aug 9 2019, 02:33 PM
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With regards to respecting the referendum result, I spent a long time believing that trying to reverse the Brexit decision was a bad idea. Immediately after the referendum, there was a petition signed by 4.1 million people asking for a second referendum, but even amongst Remain voters, this was a minority view at the time. We became radicalised when things got truly chaotic after June 2017 (and got worse the government agreed to the backstop the following December, worse again post-Chequers, and then of course shit truly hit the fan once the withdrawal bill hit the House of Commons and March 2019 passed).

It was only after the government decided what exactly a narrow majority choosing to leave the EU actually meant (leaving the single market and customs union, seeking a Canada/Singapore-type relationship with the EU when our economic relationship with them is anything but, apparently), and Brexiteers coming up with ridiculous, dishonest concepts like 'BINO' - Brexit In Name Only, dismissing Leave campaigners such as Liam Fox for not being Brexity enough, etc., that it became clear to me that the mandate the referendum gave is worthless when the 52% can't even agree with each other, let alone attempt to get the 48% on board.

People talk about 'delivering Brexit' but I don't know what that is anymore. The main argument today seems to be a circular 'respect the will of the people' logic that May's meaningless 2017 'Brexit means Brexit' slogan prophesied. But there is no will of the people. I was disgusted by the racism that some parts of the Leave campaign showed in 2016, and of course the 'let's send £350 million a week to the NHS' is laughable, but at least those are tangible potential outcomes that voters might be tempted by.

That neither the referendum question, nor the campaigns that pushed for Leave explicitly specified the flavour of Brexit (and both sides have agreed at different times that the flavour of Brexit is really consequential!), or at worst promoted mutually exclusive outcomes, is an issue which I wish we could've overlooked, but the approach of the government(s) of the last three years has made that impossible. I'm fully aware that the second referendum campaign is made up entirely of Remainers but I still think that asking people again with clearly set out options on the table is the least damaging way out of the impasse.
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Kath
post Aug 9 2019, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Aug 9 2019, 01:19 PM) *
No easy solution, and of course I see Gormless Gove is already trying to pin the blame on the EU.


Gormless Gove will be prattling out whatever Boris has told him to say. Just as the Brexiters blamed the EU for austerity - now they'll be blamed for the 'no deal' that awaits us. I wish I had an exit plan that involved breathing! At 60 though my only exit plan is death which to be perfectly honest is preferable to being surrounded by a bunch of no-marks shouting 'Leave means Leave'.

I hear that just as The Donald still has plans for his wall - Mini-Donald has plans to build a 300 foot fan to rest on the white cliffs of Dover for when the shit hits!

We're doomed! Doomed I tell ya!
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Jüpiter👑
post Aug 9 2019, 05:30 PM
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There will be riots in the uk. I'm sureof it. It all sucks.

I'm considering getting outta here. But annoyed for my family that can't move & will be screwed. I honestly despair at the stupidity and selfishness of ignorant little Englanders. It's hilarious in a way because so much of their belief is faith that things won't or can't go badly because their jobs or their age has isolated them from all the shit that's already gone down over the last decade. Even pre Brexit vote we lived in a divided society where those older experience a whole different reality to those younger and lower class or even younger middle class, who no longer have any of the benefits and safeguards in their workplaces that the older folk took as givens. (Pay rises, extra paid overtime, contracts, progression, guaranteed hours - and all with cost of living well under 50% of your salary)

Honestly I'm horrified at English people's response to Johnson and co too, and May to an extent. This is serious, real life. The leaders of the country are visibly inept,liars, cheats, thieves and in Johnson's case, of low morals. The same country that eviscerates Meghan Markle for being mixed race is totally happy to have an adulterer living in number 10 with a much younger bit on the side while his wife and children live in another house. It's just insane the things the media and the general public are perfectly happy to try and not see to fool themselves that nothing bad could be going on.
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Rooney
post Aug 9 2019, 06:47 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49258852

Did anyone read this? All of the big supermarkets and FMCG companies are going through the agency because of the pricing problems it poses. Everyone can see No Deal is a f***ing terrible idea. There will be civil unrest and no doubt it will come from the likes who want No Deal so badly now. The exit strategy is pining the blame on the EU by the Tories so they can say they delivered Brexit and now we are being held to ransom by the EU. I can see it a mile off and it's exactly the sort of strategy Cummings would orchestrate. Honestly makes my blood boil that there are so many people who just don't know what the impact is going to be, what extra administration costs are going to come to businesses - all that's going to happen is they will cut jobs or increase increase the price for the consumer. Businesses exist to make money and keep the shareholders happy.

Got a big feeling there is going to be a massive power struggle come September.
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Klaus
post Aug 9 2019, 07:01 PM
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Ultimately it comes down to the stubbornness of the human race.

People would rather go down in flames than admit that they were wrong.
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Doctor Blind
post Aug 9 2019, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 9 2019, 07:47 PM) *
Got a big feeling there is going to be a massive power struggle come September.


Indeed, the Brexit Blog I read sums it up well:

QUOTE
The coming crisis

Whatever happens, it seems all but certain that the UK will experience an intensified political crisis and perhaps a full-blown constitutional crisis in September (or, conceivably, earlier if parliament were recalled, as discussed in this UCL Constitution Unit blog, though I doubt it) and it’s likely to be accompanied by a severe sterling crisis which is already incipient. That’s an alarming prospect in itself, but what is even more worrying is what comes afterwards, and I don’t think many commentators are giving enough attention to that.

There are several strands to consider. If no-deal Brexit goes ahead then, of course, there will be whatever economic disruptions and deprivations that will bring. But there will also, and partly because of that, be immediate and long-term issues about how the UK does settle its relationship with its nearest neighbour, biggest trading partner, and key international ally.

They won’t go away by virtue of no-deal Brexit, and will be made far more difficult to address by the acrimony of it. (I’ve seen a report, which unfortunately I did not keep a record of, and now can’t find to link to*, that the UK has already asked the EU how quickly post-no-deal talks could begin, and received a very frosty response).
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5 Silas Frøkner
post Aug 9 2019, 07:59 PM
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I read today that the first things on the agenda for the EU in post-brexit trade talks would be: 1 - The money the UK owes the EU for it's commitments. 2 - Citizens Rights. 3 - Irish Backstop


We will not get a trade deal without addressing these three things. This is a mess that is only solved by packing it all in and rescinding Article 50
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Harve
post Aug 9 2019, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 9 2019, 08:59 PM) *
I read today that the first things on the agenda for the EU in post-brexit trade talks would be: 1 - The money the UK owes the EU for it's commitments. 2 - Citizens Rights. 3 - Irish Backstop
We will not get a trade deal without addressing these three things. This is a mess that is only solved by packing it all in and rescinding Article 50

Post-no deal trade talks with the EU will essentially involve recreating the withdrawal agreement while the UK is in a desperate position of ultimate weakness.

Which makes you wonder what the point of No Deal is in the first place.
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5 Silas Frøkner
post Aug 9 2019, 09:06 PM
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Disaster capitalism magic.gif


Brexit has turned me into such a cynic
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Suedehead2
post Aug 9 2019, 09:16 PM
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Gove and co kept telling us in the referendum campaign that we would hold all the cards in negotiations. That, as Remain campaigners warned, has proved to be total fantasy. In a world with conscientious journalists, he and his cronies would be asked how leaving without a deal would increase our bargaining power.
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5 Silas Frøkner
post Aug 9 2019, 09:17 PM
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These people actually walk amongst us mellow.gif


f*** England, honestly. Let it rot. Anyone wanting to escape is welcome in Scotland. Kettle's on. If you come up before #Indyref2 you've to vote for Independence, that's all we ask
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dandy*
post Aug 9 2019, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE(Klaus @ Aug 9 2019, 08:01 PM) *
Ultimately it comes down to the stubbornness of the human race.

People would rather go down in flames than admit that they were wrong.


Whilst I do think this is true for some, it saddens me that many people actually think f*** all will happen and everything will magically be okay despite seemingly us being unable to even negotiate an acceptable deal.

Honestly people don't realise how much of our community and services are run by people with talent from outside of the UK. They can blindly think they are stealing their jobs or whatever but from my experience the UK applicants are largely shite by comparison.
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Envoirment
post Aug 10 2019, 12:49 AM
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The current negative economic news is a good thing in a way - I know multiple people actually taking note who voted leave and who are now actually worried about leaving... A couple even want to remain given the current political situation. If the continued bad news and negative consequences continue to build up over the next few months, I wouldn't be surprised if we see an increase in the amount of people wanting to remain. Hopefully a general election will be held with remain-backing parties benefitting the most and we get a second referendum.
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Harve
post Aug 10 2019, 07:39 AM
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Sterling reached its lowest value since 1985 against the dollar last night.
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Rooney
post Aug 10 2019, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE(Harve @ Aug 10 2019, 08:39 AM) *
Sterling reached its lowest value since 1985 against the dollar last night.


Don't worry our great British spirt will see us through an impeding self-made recession.
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Tawdry Hepburn
post Aug 10 2019, 09:54 AM
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It does feel like a lot of these people are intent on selfishly fucking everything up for us all just for the sake of being chained to some kind of colonial fantasy, and it makes me so mad.

And yes, I do very much include people like Chris in that.
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Jüpiter👑
post Aug 10 2019, 10:29 AM
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I don't know if any of you saw this but there was a Sky poll a while back that showed something like 30% of voters think 'No Deal Brexit' means to cancel the whole thing and keep the status quo.

I honestly think these buzzwords are a huge part of the problem. I mean, 'Brexit' itself sounds so much easier than 'the negotiation for the UK to leabe the European Union trading zone and rules', but the second one os what it actually is, while the first is just essentially a catchphrase.
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