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 Russia vs UK (Spies), 23 diplomats expelled |
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 Mar 21 2018, 11:45 PM
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#41
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 WINTER IS COMING
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 21 2018, 11:17 PM)  So the latest development is that New Scientist magazine (about as respected as publications come) are casting doubt on the official line. Bear in mind that May's statement referred to a substance "of a type developed in Russia". That falls short of saying that it was actually developed in Russia. Other questions raised elsewhere include the matter of how come none of the first responders seem to have been affected. There may, of course, be a perfectly good answer to that question so I don't see that as evidence of an anti-Russian conspiracy. However, it is reasonable to ask whether a Russian agent would have failed to do the job properly, i.e. make sure the target was killed. Evidence that it was a UK-sourced attack to discredit Russia without actually killing anyone? Probably not, but it does at least raise the possibility of a rogue former Russian agent being involved rather than a current one. Everyone is right to question the actions, but come off it here you are missing one key point - motive. Why would a rogue Russian agent decide to murder a dormant (by all accounts) ex-spy who has not been active for years and also his daughter. That does not make the Kremlin weaker. All the signs point to it being a targeted attack for both of them. Even if it is a Russian rogue agent, how do they get their hands on a deadly nerve agent? I mean come off it, this is just a conspiracy theory at its finest and like something out of Homeland. Isn't the line that the nerve was administered in their car? Killing British citizens would be like pretty much starting a World War so however it was administered there will have been no intentions to murder British civilians. Hence I suspect the policeman caught up is likely because he may have given mouth-to-mouth. There's been radio silence on the case for a few days now and I doubt many people know the full ins and outs bar those that need to. |
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Mar 22 2018, 12:07 AM
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#42
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
     
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The police officer never went anywhere near the two victims. The assumption is that he was contaminated at Skripal's house.
I accept that the evidence still suggests Kremlin involvement. The fact that it is being used as an excuse to expel suspected spies (and a few others) is nothing new. It has been happening for decades. Similarly, it is likely that at least some of the Britons expelled from Moscow are spies. I also accept that some questions cannot be answered either for genuine national security reasons or to avoid prejudicing any trial (even if a trial is unlikely to happen), However, that doesn't mean we should simply accept every word the government says on the matter. |
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Apr 3 2018, 04:18 PM
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#43
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BuzzJack Legend
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It seems that Porton Down haven't given the unequivocal "it was the Russians" verdict the government would have liked.
The theory about the substance being applied to Mr Skripal's door suggests the police now think that the perpetrator did indeed enter the country. What's the betting they decide it's one of the 23 Russians expelled and, therefore, out of the reach of the law? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43633694 |
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Apr 3 2018, 06:32 PM
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#44
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WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 45,596 User: 88
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 3 2018, 05:18 PM) It seems that Porton Down haven't given the unequivocal "it was the Russians" verdict the government would have liked. The theory about the substance being applied to Mr Skripal's door suggests the police now think that the perpetrator did indeed enter the country. What's the betting they decide it's one of the 23 Russians expelled and, therefore, out of the reach of the law? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43633694 It hardly says it was not the Russian state. It's just careful word manipulation from the Centre - the government obviously have other intelligence. |
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Apr 3 2018, 06:39 PM
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#45
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 #38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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Just like they did about the supposed WMDs in Iraq back in 2003 eh?
You are so trusting of our intelligence services Rooney! |
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Apr 3 2018, 07:45 PM
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#46
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 3 2018, 07:39 PM) Just like they did about the supposed WMDs in Iraq back in 2003 eh? You are so trusting of our intelligence services Rooney! Difference being there is no real advantage, and plenty of disadvantages, to pinning this on the Russians, and no real alternative suspects, and at least a modicum of evidence (such as saying "I'm going to kill all Russian traitors in other countries, I promise, hand on heart", amongst other things) Iraq was not so much the intelligence services, as the choosing to believe unsubstantiated reports and willing to go to war on that. And the mad frenzy of Labour and Tory MP's willing to back up the excuse to let the Americans payback unfinished business and protect oil supplies. That said, oh yes, Iraq was actually murdering it's own citizens, small minor point, but sanctions were always going to be the real solution. Invasion is never a solution except where you are taking back what has been recently* invaded. (* historically recent, as within living memory of most of the invaded) |
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Apr 3 2018, 08:09 PM
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#47
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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Well Chilcot says it better than you or I could:
QUOTE Chilcot blames the intelligence community not just for passing on bogus information in the first place but failing to correct the prime minister when he toughened up the so-called intelligence. Chilcot says the intelligence community worked from the start on the misguided assumption that Saddam had WMDs, saying it was “ingrained” in their thinking. The intelligence agencies had a serious blind spot. “At no stage was the proposition that Iraq might no longer have chemical, biological or nuclear weapons or programmes identified and examined by either JIC [the Joint Intelligence Committee, the umbrella organisation representing all the intelligence agencies] or the policy community.” I agree that there are differences here but still remain sceptical, particularly given today's statement from the scientists at Porton Down. |
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Apr 3 2018, 08:20 PM
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#48
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WINTER IS COMING
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 3 2018, 07:39 PM) Just like they did about the supposed WMDs in Iraq back in 2003 eh? You are so trusting of our intelligence services Rooney! It's completely different. If the Russians didn't do it who did? |
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Apr 3 2018, 08:21 PM
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#49
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Apr 3 2018, 07:32 PM) It hardly says it was not the Russian state. It's just careful word manipulation from the Centre - the government obviously have other intelligence. Indeed not. The message is that there is no conclusive evidence to blame anyone. To be clear, the chances of some sort of Russian involvement remain very high. Whether that goes as far as the Kremlin is less certain. |
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Apr 3 2018, 08:56 PM
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#50
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Apr 3 2018, 09:20 PM) It's completely different. If the Russians didn't do it who did? Oh, so you're saying we should just take action on alleged state involvement even though we cannot be certain? Makes sense. |
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Apr 4 2018, 07:14 AM
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#51
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 3 2018, 09:09 PM) Well Chilcot says it better than you or I could: I agree that there are differences here but still remain sceptical, particularly given today's statement from the scientists at Porton Down. In which case why has Blair not used this as his Get Out Of Jail Free card, ditto Bush who also had US intelligence to go on, presumably not quite so ingrained in their thinking? "It wsn't us it was our shitty intelligence services" or was it a case of the political decision had already been made and the facts were requested to fit that decision. Granted we don't go to war, but in local government that happens all the time, and anyone who provides inconvenient alternative actual facts gets sacked. I wouldn't be shocked to hear Central Government operates in the same way.... End of the day, if you are going to war you had bloody better make sure of the facts*, and they didn't and I didn't support that war one iota. (*there were outside inspections going on but Bush n Blair decided to ignore them) |
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Apr 4 2018, 09:54 AM
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#52
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BuzzJack Legend
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A few weeks ago Boris Johnson stated that somebody at Porton Down had told him that they had firm evidence that Russia was responsible for the attack. Now Porton Down's head honcho has contradicted that. Could it be that Johnson was lying? Again.
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Apr 4 2018, 11:56 AM
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#53
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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I know I'd trust a Scientist over a politician!
Scientists biggest fear: their professional judgement being ridiculed by the scientific community, or being found to have lied about facts. That can be a career-killer. Politicians can lie with impunity, and do. And not even bother to admit it even when the photographic and video evidence is staring them in the face 50-feet high.... The substance either IS what they claimed it is, or similar to (and likely made by anyway) or it's nothing to do with it at all. If it's the latter then that opens up all sorts of questions about what it exactly is and where it's come from. Could it be a brand new substance? Still doesn't explain, though, why anyone other Russia is waging a campaign of death against enemies of the Russian State (which has already been ruled on by the UK and the now-Russian-MP culprit named 10 year ago, and no action taken), why Putin changed the law to make that "legal" and why he stated weeks ago that no enemy of the State was safe anywhere in the world, he would get them. And then blame the British government when it happens....or the scientists nearby....or claim it's fake news to distract from Brexit (it hasnt)...or refuse to co-operate in finding the "real" attempted killer of a Russian citizen who has done nothing wrong...or notice that if the British did it they did it badly, helping one victim to recover to tell her version of events, accidentally getting a policeman, and letting it happen in a public street. Pure propaganda from the Russian State and the Russian media. |
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Apr 4 2018, 05:30 PM
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#54
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 4 2018, 10:54 AM) A few weeks ago Boris Johnson stated that somebody at Porton Down had told him that they had firm evidence that Russia was responsible for the attack. Now Porton Down's head honcho has contradicted that. Could it be that Johnson was lying? Again. Not just that, but the Foreign & Commonwealth Office issued this statement on Twitter, which it has now come to light is a lie and contradicts this latest statement from Porton Down. It has since been deleted.  I don't doubt that the Russian state are likely to be behind this attack, but I do wonder what the motivation of our government to link the two without sufficient evidence is? |
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Apr 4 2018, 07:48 PM
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#55
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Apr 4 2018, 06:30 PM) I don't doubt that the Russian state are likely to be behind this attack, but I do wonder what the motivation of our government to link the two without sufficient evidence is? Oh nothing boosts flagging popularity like rallying the troops behind a foreign enemy, especially while it brings Labour into disrepute as a bonus. They didn't give a toss a year or two back when the same thing was going on (the British bloke suspiciously impaled on railings after warning Russians were out to murder him springs to mind) and they were miles ahead in the polls with all that lovely Russian dosh boosting the housing market and tax havens. Speculation only of course, I've no proof... |
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Apr 4 2018, 08:17 PM
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#56
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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A few things out of the report: It was likely a state-made sophisticated military-grade substance in the Novichok family. It was not from Porton Down. The government conclusion was based on this evidence plus information from other sources and it was not scientists job to speculate where it came from. *********** So, Russia leads a list of suspects with no others on it. I come back to my original statement that it was Russia with the smoking gun, which means Putin, or else he has totally lost control of the political system, in which case he is still to blame for allowing Russian weapons to fall into the hands of non-state activists and not admit it and try to stop it, or else he's a puppet figurehead, in which case it's still Russia but not Putin per se. His public statements and political actions rule out the latter, and he's done and said nothing to suggest it's option 2 (which would show he's weak and politically doomed), so..... |
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Apr 4 2018, 08:23 PM
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#57
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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Indeed, trouble is this incompetence by the government means that Putin gets to take the moral high ground. A total shambles as ever!
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Apr 7 2018, 01:17 PM
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#58
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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Big developments in the USA as they take actual hard action against Russia where it hurts: Putin's cash and access to it. Despite Trump (and with potentially more action if Putin retaliates) Congress has really done what the Tories haven't done at all - attack those megarich stashed offshore accounts. Chucking out diplomats is an old game of no consequences (see Yes Minister), but hitting where it hurts has consequences.
I never believed for a second the part-Russian-money-financed Tory Party would do anything to unravel the property and offshore accounts that allows oligarchs to get away with murder. Literally, it would appear. No, what they have done according to Private Eye is to announce that they will probably make public who is behind shady accounts in British territory bank accounts in 3 years time, to allow time to sort out their affairs and hide it elsewhere..... |
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Apr 7 2018, 01:24 PM
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#59
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Apr 7 2018, 02:17 PM) Big developments in the USA as they take actual hard action against Russia where it hurts: Putin's cash and access to it. Despite Trump (and with potentially more action if Putin retaliates) Congress has really done what the Tories haven't done at all - attack those megarich stashed offshore accounts. Chucking out diplomats is an old game of no consequences (see Yes Minister), but hitting where it hurts has consequences. I never believed for a second the part-Russian-money-financed Tory Party would do anything to unravel the property and offshore accounts that allows oligarchs to get away with murder. Literally, it would appear. No, what they have done according to Private Eye is to announce that they will probably make public who is behind shady accounts in British territory bank accounts in 3 years time, to allow time to sort out their affairs and hide it elsewhere..... If they stick to that timetable then we can expect the next election to happen within the next 2 1/2 years. |
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Apr 7 2018, 03:16 PM
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#60
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Apr 7 2018, 02:17 PM) Chucking out diplomats is an old game of no consequences (see Yes Minister), but hitting where it hurts has consequences. And here was me thinking that I am the only person on Buzzjack that is allowed to make Yes (Prime) Minister references  The relevant clip - |
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