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 EU/Brexit Discussion Thread II |
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 26th November 2017, 04:58 PM
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#41
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 #38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561 
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QUOTE(ChRiMbO LeG PiPe @ Nov 26 2017, 04:46 PM)  With the media pushing stories like 'enemy of the people', 'remoaners', 'will of the people' etc, remoaner has a far worse anti democratic element. Yes, and front pages like 'Crush The Saboteurs' from the Fail and 'The Brexit Mutineers' from the Telegraph which IMO unnecessarily incite hatred/harassment. Thankfully the influence of the print media is rapidly waning, as seen in the 2017 general election and the biggest increase in the Labour vote since Clement Attlee in 1945 in spite of a continued sustained onslaught on Corbyn. |
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26th November 2017, 05:04 PM
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#42
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,672 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 26 2017, 04:30 PM) Which is why I amended it before posting.  It's not like the insults are all one-way though : e.g. 'little Englander' ; 'xenophobe'; 'unintelligent (and less polite variations)' etc... Be that as it may, anti-EU feelings had been festering for 40 years, so you can hardly blame people for taking their 'once-in-a-lifetime' chance to express them democratically. Besides, referendum or not, the issue was not going to go away on its own. UKIP support was growing faster than the older generations were dropping dead... If I relied on the Wail or Distress for my information, I might not have been too keen on the EU. Thankfully, I prefer more reliable sources. |
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26th November 2017, 05:16 PM
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#43
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,829 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Nov 26 2017, 04:58 PM) Yes, and front pages like 'Crush The Saboteurs' from the Fail and 'The Brexit Mutineers' from the Telegraph which IMO unnecessarily incite hatred/harassment. Thankfully the influence of the print media is rapidly waning, as seen in the 2017 general election and the biggest increase in the Labour vote since Clement Attlee in 1945 in spite of a continued sustained onslaught on Corbyn. I agree with all you say except the final few words - I'd add "despite the right-wing press and less-right-wing press bringing up uncomfortable truths like, his basic anti-EU stance (fooling younger voters in the last general election who didn't have much alternative for the anti-Tory vote), his demonising of fellow-non-Momentum Labour party members, having spots on Russia Today, lots of lovely meetings over the years with Terrorist organisations, and oh yes a virtual career voting against his own party's policies and leaders of the Labour Party. Not to mention not explaining how he's going to pay for the social policies of which most of us approve while keeping a nuclear deterrent which he's never going to even threaten to use." An overlong addendum admittedly, but one which Labour Party supporters are amazingly quiet about, having been very very vocal in the pre-Corbyn days. I can only assume there is no disagreement on any issue in the party..... |
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26th November 2017, 05:24 PM
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#44
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561
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I would agree with what you've said, I am personally not a fan of Corbyn - but I did like the policies within the recent manifesto.
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27th November 2017, 06:41 AM
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#45
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(ChRiMbO LeG PiPe @ Nov 26 2017, 04:46 PM) With the media pushing stories like 'enemy of the people', 'remoaners', 'will of the people' etc, remoaner has a far worse anti democratic element. You seem to change your pseudonym more often than politicians change their policies.  QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Nov 26 2017, 04:58 PM) Yes, and front pages like 'Crush The Saboteurs' from the Fail and 'The Brexit Mutineers' from the Telegraph which IMO unnecessarily incite hatred/harassment. Thankfully the influence of the print media is rapidly waning, as seen in the 2017 general election and the biggest increase in the Labour vote since Clement Attlee in 1945 in spite of a continued sustained onslaught on Corbyn. You do realise that the only people who'd take headlines like the above seriously, will not be susceptible to pro-EU arguments of any kind? As for the increase in the Labour vote, that's unlikely to be sustainable through another election, as the fear of a Corbyn-led Labour gov't is likely to prevent many more Tories jumping ship. QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 26 2017, 05:04 PM) If I relied on the Wail or Distress for my information, I might not have been too keen on the EU. Thankfully, I prefer more reliable sources. AIUI, the Mail has about 4m readers, so how do you account for the other 13m Leavers? This post has been edited by vidcapper: 27th November 2017, 06:42 AM |
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27th November 2017, 08:18 AM
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#46
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 27 2017, 06:41 AM) AIUI, the Mail has about 4m readers, so how do you account for the other 13m Leavers? The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, Fox News, greed, stupidity and gullibility. I think that about covers it.... |
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27th November 2017, 09:55 AM
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#47
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 27 2017, 08:18 AM) The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, Fox News, greed, stupidity and gullibility. I think that about covers it.... You know what irritates me most about the whole Remain/Leave issue? It is the notion that *only* Remainers were capable of making a rational, informed choice on the issue, and that everyone else would realise how wonderful the EU is, if only it were explained the 'right' way...  |
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27th November 2017, 10:15 AM
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#48
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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I've been reading what Wiki has to say about the 1974 Referenda, and in many ways the campaigning tactics were very similar, especially in the negativity towards those who supported the 'no' position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdo...eferendum,_1975 |
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27th November 2017, 10:19 AM
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#49
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,672 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 27 2017, 10:15 AM) I've been reading what Wiki has to say about the 1974 Referenda, and in many ways the campaigning tactics were very similar, especially in the negativity towards those who supported the 'no' position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdo...eferendum,_1975 1) There was only one referendum. 2) It was in 1975. |
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27th November 2017, 10:44 AM
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#50
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 27 2017, 06:41 AM) You do realise that the only people who'd take headlines like the above seriously, will not be susceptible to pro-EU arguments of any kind? Yes, but the point I was trying to make was about how those headlines only encouraged and incited more hatred and aggression. |
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27th November 2017, 10:49 AM
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#51
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 27 2017, 10:19 AM) 1) There was only one referendum. 2) It was in 1975. OK, so I got the date slightly wrong, but I'm not in gov't so it doesn't matter. 
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27th November 2017, 10:51 AM
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#52
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Nov 27 2017, 10:44 AM) Yes, but the point I was trying to make was about how those headlines only encouraged and incited more hatred and aggression. Amongst those who were already inclined to it, or in people who would never have considered it before? |
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27th November 2017, 11:01 AM
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#53
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,170 User: 7,561
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Are you seriously trying to rationalise those headlines as ok because the people who threatened MPs were 'already inclined to it'. Seriously?!
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27th November 2017, 01:01 PM
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#54
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,829 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 27 2017, 09:55 AM) You know what irritates me most about the whole Remain/Leave issue? It is the notion that *only* Remainers were capable of making a rational, informed choice on the issue, and that everyone else would realise how wonderful the EU is, if only it were explained the 'right' way... 1. It's rational debate on the Remain side, because we are rational people 2. Jo Cox, and endless vitriol on the leave side which allowed such a thing to happen. 3. All those Leave referendum promises have already turned out to be lies. Still waiting for you to point out the successes as we go in endless circles. 4. The 1975 campaign was civil and well debated, that's why reasoned argument won the day amongst people who had living memory of the hell and misery of WW2, as opposed to people who had living memory of Dad's Army (chuckle gaffaw) and Hogan's Heroes (LOL). |
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27th November 2017, 02:58 PM
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#55
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Nov 27 2017, 11:01 AM) Are you seriously trying to rationalise those headlines as ok because the people who threatened MPs were 'already inclined to it'. Seriously?! I was not trying to rationalize anything - I was asking a question, the clue was in the question mark I used! QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 27 2017, 01:01 PM) 1. It's rational debate on the Remain side, because we are rational people 2. Jo Cox, and endless vitriol on the leave side which allowed such a thing to happen. 3. All those Leave referendum promises have already turned out to be lies. Still waiting for you to point out the successes as we go in endless circles. 4. The 1975 campaign was civil and well debated, that's why reasoned argument won the day amongst people who had living memory of the hell and misery of WW2, as opposed to people who had living memory of Dad's Army (chuckle gaffaw) and Hogan's Heroes (LOL). 1. Some aspects of Project Fear were about as rational as Chicken Little... does 'Emergency Budget' ring a bell? 2. Her murderer was an extreme-right loony, so it's impossible to rationalise his actions to blame Brexit. 3. Brexit hasn't happened yet, so how can you claim they have been *proven* wrong? 4. Unfortunately I've not seen a demographic breakdown of the 1975 vote, so I don't know which groups tended to vote no. |
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27th November 2017, 04:18 PM
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#56
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,672 User: 3,272
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You mean the emergency Budget that was averted by the Bank Of England spending billions of pounds?
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27th November 2017, 04:31 PM
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#57
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 27 2017, 04:18 PM) You mean the emergency Budget that was averted by the Bank Of England spending billions of pounds? I was talking of a threat *before* the election, not an action after. |
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27th November 2017, 06:24 PM
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#58
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Howdy, disco citizens
Joined: 16 January 2010
Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455
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I never expected a Labour MP to go full Trump, but Kate Hoey has said that after Brexit, there should be a big wall between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and get the Republic to pay for it.
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27th November 2017, 09:22 PM
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#59
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,829 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 27 2017, 02:58 PM) I was not trying to rationalize anything - I was asking a question, the clue was in the question mark I used! 1. Some aspects of Project Fear were about as rational as Chicken Little... does 'Emergency Budget' ring a bell? 2. Her murderer was an extreme-right loony, so it's impossible to rationalise his actions to blame Brexit. 3. Brexit hasn't happened yet, so how can you claim they have been *proven* wrong? 4. Unfortunately I've not seen a demographic breakdown of the 1975 vote, so I don't know which groups tended to vote no. 1. As I've explained ad infinitum the project Fear was a cameron/osbourne knee-jerk panic attack right at the end and wasnt part of the official campaign - because it worked so well in the Scotland campaign - feel free to slag them off all you like and I'll join in with the heavy boot. 2. No it isn't. The posters, the lies about millions of Turkish immigrants all inflamed hatred among already angry people and pushed them over the edge. Forgotten about the attacks on immigrants already? Thought so. Name a single Remainer going out and attacking anyone. Hint: You can't. 3. The lies they said about the EU falling over to keep our business, (havent even started to discuss it and 2 weeks to go to the deadline) the lies about 350m to the NHS (a central plank of the campaign). 2 billion in total is the fact. Industry, Economists, most MP's, most potential customers in the world, all say it's insane and going to be a disaster. Still, as long as you have hope on your side to blind you to reality, feel free to keep living in La La land that other countries are lining up to do business with us (clue: they aren't) 4. It was 42 years ago, work it out. That means of the people who voted then they must all be between 60 and dead. The dead ones will largely be the ones who didn't grow up on War films, Dads Army and nostalgia for a time that never existed. |
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28th November 2017, 06:17 AM
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#60
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Nov 27 2017, 09:22 PM) 3. The lies they said about the EU falling over to keep our business, (havent even started to discuss it and 2 weeks to go to the deadline) the lies about 350m to the NHS (a central plank of the campaign). 2 billion in total is the fact. Industry, Economists, most MP's, most potential customers in the world, all say it's insane and going to be a disaster. Like the American Revolution, perhaps?  |
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