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Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 3 2020, 06:36 PM

A recontinuation of the Coronavirus/COVID-19 thread, for discussion of the pandemic from the news/political perspective.


An interesting story regarding the use of one of the alleged treatments for COVID-19 has emerged in the past few days. A few weeks ago, the World Health Organization halted the trial of hydroxychloroquine after a study came out published in reputable journals claimed that it led to a higher death rate. However, an investigation carried out hashttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine, after questions had been raised about the methodology used, and the company behind the study was found to be somewhat suspect (read the entire article. It's really eye-opening). The WHO have restarted the trial of the drug as a result.

Obviously I should state that so far there is no sustained medical evidence for hydroxychloroquine as a bona-fide treatment for COVID-19/Coronavirus (looking at you, Flumpy Carrot), but if it turns out that it is an effective treatment, and there ended up being a delay in people getting the proper treatment as result leading to further casualties, then a lot of people will have a lot of questions to answer.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 3 2020, 07:38 PM

The mass gatherings associated with the recent protests are almost certainly going to raise the R number. The UK government should therefore rethink its R number predictions and rethink the speed of its lockdown easing programme in light of the effect of the protests, so that the second wave does not overwhelm the NHS. Other countries should do the same. The protests also mean in general that countries should ideally be easing lockdown more slowly I think than they otherwise would have.

About the hydroxychloroquine, I saw a news report about the fact it is being used quite a bit in Turkey.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 3 2020, 07:52 PM

Very sad news that Chester zoo may go bust and never re-open. I can't see why zoos can't re-open with SD. Appparently they've been told they may never be allowed to re-open.

As the UK’s biggest and most popular charity zoo, we’ve tried to stay positive during this pandemic.
Our conservationists have continued to prevent extinction, our virtual days have cheered up the nation, and our learning resources have helped thousands of home-schooling families.

We wanted to remain a beacon of hope.
We really tried.

But now, as the government has ordered that we may have to stay closed indefinitely, it hurts us to say that this crisis has left us fighting for our future.

Not being able to open, despite being a huge outdoor site with all the necessary safety measures in place, is having a devastating impact on our much-loved zoo. We’re heading towards debt in excess of £24m by the end of 2020 – this will financially cripple us. We need to raise £1.6m each month to keep going.

Meanwhile, we’re having to sit back and watch as people are piling onto beaches and into public parks, where there is no way of controlling numbers, no way of guaranteeing people are socially distanced and no way of ensuring safety. We, can do all of this.

We look on as, from this week, private gardens open up, while our own 128 acres of gardens and 16km of pathways remain closed, and under enormous financial pressure.

We REFUSE to cut corners when it comes to caring for the animals
We REFUSE to give up on our fight to prevent extinction
And because of that, we’ve now reached the point where we desperately NEED YOUR HELP

We need you to SAVE OUR ZOO...

To donate go to www.justgiving.com/campaign/ChesterZooFuture

For anything else go to www.chesterzoo.org/saveourzoo

Posted by: The Snake Jun 3 2020, 08:13 PM

Not sure if I completely agree with the concept of zoos anyway tbh. I know some of it is valuable conservation work but most of the animals would probably be happier in the wild where they can roam over a large area than in an enclosure, even a large one.

I suppose they are good for the education of children though as mentioned in Chester Zoo's message as you quoted below.

I suppose they could let school groups visit zoos while still not being open to the public. That is one option....

Posted by: Rooney Jun 3 2020, 09:06 PM

Chester Zoo is only the start. They will have been in financial trouble before but the pandemic will have heightend the matter. Don't know how I feel about zoos either myself, but I have some fond memories of Chester Zoo.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 3 2020, 09:17 PM

This is such a joke.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 3 2020, 09:21 PM

Erm, so he wants them to return but also insists that they should go into quarantine for 14 days before they can do anything. And I don't suppose it's occurred to him that here may be other factors that drove them away in the first place. Utterly clueless.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 3 2020, 09:33 PM

Same cut of cloth of Rees-Mogg who wanted Parliment back so quickly, yet the irony is there might now be an outbreak amongst MPs again.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 3 2020, 10:14 PM

There was one MP who's already been told to self isolate after feeling unwell at the dispatch box today.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 3 2020, 11:10 PM

Posted by: Rooney Jun 3 2020, 11:45 PM

As awful as it sounds I don't think we can read too much in to the death statistics. While of course they are bad, each country has their own mechanism of reporting the data so it's like comparing apples and oranges. The R values and rates/levels of infections vs other countries are much more useful imo. It demonstrates how badly the Government have done don't get me wrong, but I also think the bigger issue is why we seem to be not following the same pattern.

For all intents and purposes we have largely followed the same trajectory as Italy and Spain, but for some reason while the death lowered at a steady pace in those two countries, the one in England seems to have levelled off completely and isn't budging. Admittedly I haven't seen too much recently from the press conferences, but even Vallace and Whitty can't provide an answer. We don't know how long the people have been positively tested for Covid-19 for example.

While we might be governed by a bunch of muppets our healthcare system is at least adequeate, so it doesn't seem to be lack of resource. Could be be have a population more susepticle to triggering harsh symptoms which you would be assume be linked to society e.g. greater obesity, larger BAME population, diabeties.

Posted by: Harve Jun 4 2020, 12:55 AM

From a distance, but having spoken with family and friends and listening to analysis on the excellent New Statesman podcast, it seems like that everything that was a rule in France was merely a guideline in Britain. Over a million €135 fines were issued here, but I don't think authorities in Britain have had that kind of power to enforce concrete rules. The rules weren't complicated - you could fit the rules onto a page, and indeed you had to print and sign this page everytime you left home as a reminder.

Even though lockdown enforcement is undoubtedly more lax in Britain, the ambiguity allowed police to make it up as they go along to some extent, leading to some clear cases of individual members of the police force overstepping their authority going viral. And no doubt the flipside is that many more cases of letting clear breaches of guidelines happen (that Westminster Bridge clapping for carers video, anyone?), most of which had no reason to be filmed. Loads of moralising on social media, too.

I don't want to automatically put 2+2 together as I have no idea of the effect of this in terms of epidemiology, but this is the main behavioural difference I see.

And then there's the easing of the lockdown. England will never also never have that absolutely glorious 11th May moment* that most of France and other countries had - the lockdown in England seems to be being eased by adding on niche exceptions on a weekly basis - reopening bloody garden centres or restarting horse racing only affects a minority but no doubt constant, seemingly arbitrary signals such as this encourages others to behave as they see fit, too. Reopening places of mass gathering such as schools before allowing friends to visit each other at home or launching your StopCovid tracing app smacks of forcing the the economy to restart (as necessary as it is!) over making decisions from a medical standpoint, or indeed implementing measures that help businesses and the wider economy work better remotely. And that's without mentioning the very guy that wrote the rules breaking them *with the virus* and there being no consequences at all.

It's just awful communication all round from a government that makes it up as it goes along and whose main concern is quashing uncomplimentary headlines rather than having a long term plan. Governing by focus group is ineffective.

*No second wave since then btw.

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As an aside, I don't know where you're getting the ethnic minority population claim from as most European countries haven't collected ethnicity statistics for decades.

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 4 2020, 07:41 AM

Final chapter? We can only hope but we're not even halfway thru the book!

Posted by: Popchartfreak Jun 4 2020, 07:48 AM

Not to worry, he's just offered visa-free temporary access to the UK for Hong Kong citizens cos he feels so sorry for them about to lose their agreed-rights as per M. Thatcher's abandonment and trust in China to stick to the agreement. All those fruits rotting on orchards aren't going to get picked on their own! Sorted.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 4 2020, 09:51 AM

After the farce of Tuesday's votes on Mogg's proposals, the government has performed a partial U-turn already. They will now allow MPs to vote electronically if they are unable to attend the Commons. However, they are not restoring the right of MPs to attend by video link, thereby leaving dozens of members unable to do their job properly. Yet another measure to add to the list of things that would have elicited a very different response from the press if it was a Labour government doing it.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 4 2020, 10:43 AM

I was keeping the subheading in line with other subheadings, which reference a movie based upon that number. This one was based upon Friday The 13th Part IV - The Final Chapter. Of course, as we all know about 10 movies later, it wasn’t.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 4 2020, 11:31 AM

As was also pointed out by the SNP, Holyrood (and I assume the other devolved admins) are continuing their hybrid approaches and voting takes 30 seconds. Not 45 minutes. Westminster is not fit for purpose

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 4 2020, 11:36 AM

I see. Those references totally flew over my head then

Posted by: The Snake Jun 4 2020, 12:11 PM

Steve, agree with the message of both protests of course but did you see the contrasts between the pictures of protests in Edinburgh and Belfast in terms of social distancing!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-52915537

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52917950

Very worrying for NI in terms of coronavirus spread

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 4 2020, 12:25 PM

I seen them, can understand why people want to protest but seems likely it'll lead to more cases but maybe we will be lucky!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 4 2020, 12:26 PM

For a party that loves to bang on about making state enterprises more efficient, the Tories remain wedded to the idea of retaining what must be the least efficient parliamentary voting system in the world.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 4 2020, 12:28 PM

This proposed reduction from 2m to 1m social distancing that is getting spoken about is very worrying. There have been some studies that show that even 2m sometimes isn't distant enough but its certianly a lot better than 1m I would have thought.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 4 2020, 12:32 PM

I honestly cannot think of another country with this sake archaic system. There’s no need for it. Yeah sure the old building is nice but turn it into a goddamn museum and let’s have a parliament fit for this millennium. Or even stay where you are but renovate to 21st century standards. The Reichstag is a modern parliamentary building in the shell of a historic one. Perfect model. We need a chamber where all members can sit and they should have desks equipped with microphones and voting buttons. Keep the benches If you must but we need microphones and voting buttons and space for all. Either expand it or cut the number of MPs.

The system is so outdated in so many ways. The dissolution of the UK will be good for all of us.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 4 2020, 12:39 PM

Perhaps it would be possible to put modern technology as you are stating into the Houses of Parliament without breaking the listed building regulations

As for the German building I thought it wasn't called the Reichstag any more but is called the Bundestag because of the understandable negative connotations of the word 'Reich'?

Posted by: The Snake Jun 4 2020, 12:41 PM

-

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 4 2020, 12:58 PM

The parliament itself is the Bundestag but the building is still known as the “Reichstagsgebäude” or most commonly “Reichstag” for short. Officially it’s called “Deutscher Bundestag - Plenarbereich Reichstagsgebäude” and no one, including the federal government has qualms about calling it the Reichstag and most maps pick it out as “Reichstagsgeb.”. The U-Bahn stop on the U55 (soon to be U5) calls it Bundestag only because the stop serves all of the federal buildings in the government quarter and is closer to the main offices of the actual Bundestag rather than the Reichstag building itself

The building wasn’t used by the Nazis and the word Reich actually means rich in German so is widely used to this day.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 4 2020, 02:11 PM

A nice horseshoe-shaped arrangement for the seating would also be a good idea. Too much of the UK system is based on an adversarial approach. We have a Commons chamber with two sides facing each other (with red lines to keep them two sword-lengths apart) and a judicial system which depends far too much on which side can afford a better lawyer.

In the meantime, Keir Starmer mentioned at PMQs yesterday a letter he had sent to Johnson offering some degree of cross-party cooperation. He had even flagged up the issue in an interview at the weekend as well as the fact that Johnson hadn't replied even though the letter was sent two weeks ago. Johnson's response was to say that there had been a telephone call between the two. He omitted to mention the fact that it was not a one-to-one conversation, but a conference call involving all party leaders and did not involve a discussion on cross-party cooperation. That reply shows exactly why all party leaders should be very wary of any invitation from Johnson without legally-binding guarantees.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 4 2020, 03:23 PM

That’s a great point! I’m also struggling to think of a similarly designed legislature, even the hyper partisan US is a horseshoe styled chamber.

I think the easier thing to do is just to assure that whatever Johnson said is an outright lie

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 4 2020, 05:21 PM

World-beating.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 4 2020, 05:54 PM

So when Johnson said that it would be launched within the next twelve days, he actually meant 3 1/2 months.

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jun 4 2020, 06:20 PM

In slightly better news, particularly for any Londoners here, Face coverings are going to made compulsory on public transport from 15th of June. About a sodding month late of course, but I've come to expect that...

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 4 2020, 06:42 PM

Why from 11 days time?!


Been mandatory or heavily recommended in countries Governed by people with functional brains for months

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 4 2020, 07:21 PM

Pointless imo. A) because usage is down by lots nowadays & B) because repeated 'evidence' suggests face masks are pretty ineffective anyway.

Not that I ever really need to take public transport anymore, even got myself a bike now. Never thought I'd see the day!

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jun 4 2020, 07:49 PM

They've emphasised face coverings though, so it can include your own scarf or bandanna etc. which is better as it's reusable, it may not stop it entirely but I know I'd rather have that in an enclosed space of a tube carriage than nothing (not that I'm gonna use the tube at all in the near future until I absolutely have to).

I have no idea why it's eleven days later lmao

Posted by: Rooney Jun 4 2020, 08:22 PM

I'd assume it's 11 days later because it gives everyone time to buy/make face coverings. I'd be raging if they implemented the rule tomorrow and they enforced fines if you didn't have a mask. Agreed it should have been done earlier (when they told people they should go back to work( but I don't see anything wrong with implementing it in 11 days time.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 4 2020, 08:35 PM

Easy error to make, he's only hooman!!1

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 4 2020, 10:57 PM

I think it's also when more people will be back to work with non essential shops opening from the 15th.

I really think it's not the worst idea but people need to know how to use masks and how to dispose of them or it's pointless as masks make people touch their face more and may also make people not socially distance or wash their hands as they think the mask is enough!

Posted by: Mart!n Jun 5 2020, 09:47 AM

I rather wear a scarf, people will throw masks onto the streets, I've already seen disposable gloves and masks been thrown around in public places, the streets will be littered with them.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 5 2020, 10:38 AM

Unfounded crap.

They’re mandatory in shops and on public transport throughout Germany and I’ve not seen any masks being abandoned on the ground. I’d say about 40% at least have reusable cloth masks now as well. No increase in litter here in the capital.




Also @ whoever said that shite about masks being useless. That’s crap. The science backs the use of masks. They reduce the volume of contaminates that you put out into the world and they also cut the volume of contaminates others breathe in. When both parties where a mask the chance of the virus spreading falls dramatically.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 5 2020, 12:21 PM

Exactement ! No one said masks protect you 100% but at least there's a barrier (or two if both people are wearing masks!) and that significantly lowers the chances of infection.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 5 2020, 01:00 PM

I am happy with this new regulation about the use of masks as while masks aren't perfect in stopping spread of coronavirus, its certainly better than people not wearing them I think. Unfortunately, there have been fears though that the wearing of masks regulations will be used to advance lockdown easing too quickly. Especially with this ridiculous and potentially dangerous talk about reducing social distancing from two meters to one meter.

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 5 2020, 02:40 PM

That 2m to 1m rule is a load of tosh anyway. That isn't going to change anyone's behaviour from what it currently is, it's simply just to speed up the process of allowing the hospitality industry to reopen.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 5 2020, 03:21 PM

Sky News saying that worryingly the R figure's crept above 1 in some areas of the UK today with the NW being the highest. Suppose those who said the lockdown was being lifted too soon will say we told you so.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 5 2020, 04:24 PM

It’s the speed at which it has been lifted that is the issue rather than the fact it’s being lifted. The government seem to have decided they can live with ~300 deaths a day as long as they can make money from it.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 5 2020, 05:33 PM

The R0 can be really volatile so just exercise some caution about the day to day changes.

The last 7 daily R0’s for the city/state Berlin has been: 0,36-1,41-1,66-1,95-1,32-0,85-0,62

Mental

Posted by: Harve Jun 5 2020, 05:36 PM

The Guardian headline right now is 'Face masks and coverings to be mandatory in English hospitals' and I'm just like 'they haven't been for the last 3 months???'

And on the subject of masks, my brother laughed at me when I told him we all had to wear one at work and seemingly there's an aversion to wearing them, probably for various masculinity-related reasons.

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 6 2020, 07:54 AM

I dislike them because they make my beard itch and are generally super-uncomfortable. A positive side is that they add an element of secrecy (couple the mask with sunglasses and headphones and ain't noone bothering you in the streets!)

On the super rare occasions I will take public transport I will have to ensure I've one to hand, which given how forgetful I am will probably catch me out until I institutionalise it as normal in my brain.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 7 2020, 12:17 PM

Those criticising the protests and saying ‘Now is not the time’ need to wake up and smell the coffee. There is very little likelihood of a vaccine in the next year, possibly ever. These social distancing rules and enforced mask wearing on public transport could well be in force for years to come. I feel like some people have yet to face up to the new reality of our lives for some time to come.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 7 2020, 12:23 PM

When was the last time there was a global pandemic, a global economic crash, a global social movement — all happening at the same time? This is a pivotal year in our history and not just a bump in the road. I do empathise and understand the concerns, but people thinking everything is going to go back to how it was after this are in for a rude awakening.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 7 2020, 12:34 PM

Some more revelations about the 'Cummings' incident:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/priti-patel-could-face-axe-22149571.amp

Every day I feel more and more like I'm living in a fascist dictatorship.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 7 2020, 12:57 PM

Yeah I suspected that, I am sure in one paper there was one Cabinet minister who was told to tweet support but they kept silent on the matter as Cummings did not care about their views, so why would he care if they tweeted support.

I know the election is a long way away but seeing how the polls have shifted quite quickly and there was definite widespread contempt in Tories, you'd feel that at least some of the more liberal Tories and even some backbenchers might be a little less supportive.

Posted by: Izzy Jun 7 2020, 02:05 PM

Agree, that's what I hope, although from what I've witnessed, outside of the odd tweet of dissatisfaction, most of the governing party seem very much like cronies at this point in time. The lack of calling out the narrative-shifting and truth-suppressing I've seen from this government is quite worrying.

Oh certainly. 1990-2020 I think will be a future historical period now. The basics of the economic order will likely continue, but with America in chaos, China reemerging pretty well from the virus, mass social dissatisfaction in the West, I think we might be in for at least an international power shift if not a few drastic societal changes. It was coming anyway, but the virus exacerbated and brought to the fore a lot of the issues (wealth inequality, the insatiable demand for growth, consumerism, exploitation of the global South, climate change, some of which were only tangentially affected but remain thorns in our side) with our current system. How we go about responding to that in the next few years is very important.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 7 2020, 02:25 PM

Pritti Hopeless does not fit any recognisable definition of the word liberal.

Johnson / Cummings had a major reshuffle in February, following the one immediately after he became PM last July and another (fairly minor) one after the election in December. Perhaps Cummings will be sacking Johnson next month.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 7 2020, 03:20 PM

72 deaths today. I know figures are lower at the weekend but a long time since we had a figure under 100. When people hear that they'll definitely think lockdown's virtually over or there's no need for it now.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 7 2020, 03:54 PM

Scotland reported no Covid deaths in the last 24 hours. Great news.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 7 2020, 04:02 PM

I know she doesn't and honestly I would glad to see the back of her from the Cabinet. But they could easily replace them with someone equally as awful like Andrea Leadsome.

We'll see what a Cabinet reshuffle brings on a small level.

Posted by: Wall Jun 7 2020, 04:45 PM

Absolutely excellent, I know the weekend is always a bit lower but it’s great to see that for the first time since early March!

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 8 2020, 01:08 PM

Meanwhile in New Zealand:

22 deaths reported in total there through this global pandemic, the last infected person recovered today and there hasn't been a new case reported for 17 days.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/08/new-zealand-abandons-covid-19-restrictions-after-nation-declared-no-cases

The entire country will soon reopen with ZERO restrictions in force.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 8 2020, 01:22 PM

It's really positive and shows how forceful action at the start can help.

But it doesn't solve the problem that the country relies heavily on tourism and they have still their borders shut for the forseeable future (I'd expect this to be the case for their entire winter). Hopefully by August we will know a lot more whether this famed vaccine will be available for mass distribution.

Meanwhile in Florida & Arizona they are noticing increase in spikes since restrictions were heavily relaxed..

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 8 2020, 01:28 PM

I'm sure that they will soon be able to open up to tourism for many other countries that have crushed the curve: https://www.endcoronavirus.org/countries

Not the UK though, that remains in 'complete basket case' territory.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 8 2020, 01:37 PM

They might do, but they have no need to now with it being winter. The problem with New Zealand is, a bad outbreak would completely cripple their healthcare due to the setup of the country. I think they will tread very cautiously for a little while yet. Can only see them opening up to the South Pacific islands and Australia in the short term.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 8 2020, 03:54 PM

Whilst I’m sure New Zealand May struggle without tourism, I think they can be pretty happy with the result following a strategy that put lives first. They won’t suffer as badly as the UK who initially put the economy first and will now struggle to reopen the economy as quickly as other countries, no matter how hard England are trying. I’d much rather have had a dip in tourism than over 40,000 dead.

Posted by: Oliver Jun 8 2020, 04:42 PM

I’m a bit confused by that site, why would Costa Rica who look like they are heading for a second peak in that graph be classed as “winning”, whereas the UK who have had a slow but near constant downward trend be classed as “need to take action”?

And then you have the likes of Mali and Somalia which don’t even look to have reached a peak yet but are only classed as “nearly there”?? unsure:

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 8 2020, 04:55 PM

It's not to scale so the graphs sometimes look more alarming than they actually are. Costa Rica had 55 cases yesterday whereas UK had 1,205.

Posted by: mdh Jun 8 2020, 11:14 PM

The end coronavirus website unfortunately hasn’t updated for some time. I’m guessing that the UK would be in the “nearly there” category by now.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 9 2020, 10:34 AM

Just in case y'all don't know, the % of people over 65 who have died in the UK is 89%. Even higher than I would have estimated as a top bracket guess.

Only 35 people under 40 with no underlying conditions have died. Out of 40,000.

Posted by: Jack Jun 9 2020, 02:44 PM

Does anyone know when we will next get a briefing about lockdown rules etc? I have tried to look myself but there is nothing out there!

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 9 2020, 03:00 PM

Apparently it will be on Thursday 25 June - but you're right, completely confusing and not at all clear.

That is when they will make a go/no go decision on the Stage 3 reopening of the economy for 4 July:

Posted by: The Snake Jun 9 2020, 03:22 PM

Greece would have been the same, and they did very well to try and limit the first wave. They are now opening tourism again (a bit risky in itself though) but are not encouraging tourists from the UK which is right because the UK is still not low enough in terms of daily new cases.

Posted by: Jack Jun 9 2020, 05:10 PM

Thank you! Do we reckon they will allow people to visit others inside of that's the case then?

Posted by: Rooney Jun 9 2020, 05:17 PM

Doubtful just yet. My guess is in a couple of weeks they might let you meet un-socially distanced in small groups outside and potentially mix a household between two first.

Main thing imo to watch out for is the track and trace app launch. I think when that goes live that's when you will be allowed to meet people in households again

Posted by: Jack Jun 9 2020, 06:44 PM

I thought it was already live? Or was it just a trial?

I sound like I'm so out of the loop but I just find it all so inconsistent

Posted by: T Boy Jun 9 2020, 06:46 PM

So the government are now saying that the original plans for English primary schools to be full up and back to normal before the Summer holidays isn’t going to happen because-shock horror-it’s completely impractical right now. There aren’t enough classrooms or teachers to cover the social distancing guidelines.

I wonder if they could opt for the model Wales are using where students are only in part time and resume working from home. I had a meeting with my headteacher yesterday and it appears that most schools are looking at one year group in per day (2 for schools with 7 year groups.) I know it’s a pain for parents, especially those who cannot work from home but I can’t see what else can be done with a proper track and trace system in place.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 9 2020, 06:57 PM

There are rumblings on twitter that Germany offered the build of their own track and trace system to the UK for free as a gesture of goodwill, and the UK refused because the government (/Cummings) favoured giving a multimillion £ contract to a Vote Leave supporting firm to build their own version.

I wouldn't be surprised. Sounds par for the course.

Posted by: Klaus Jun 9 2020, 07:01 PM

It’s why I won’t be downloading any NHS app so long as it has been developed by any association with Cummings/Vote Leave. It’s a complete shame as I was extremely keen to, and I would in any other circumstance because it’s needed, but there’s no way of trusting them when they’re still continuing to play their underlying political games and data dissemination at a time of national crisis. A disgusting time to be opportunistic.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 9 2020, 07:05 PM

I hope not. That will definitely push the R rate above 1 I think.

The focus should just be just slowly reopening businesses and not easing social distancing even outside.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 9 2020, 07:58 PM

There's a trial and it's already "live" too, although not the track and trace like promised. The sceptics (including me) think it was launched as a distraction from the Cummings debacle.



Pretty sure it's been well debunked that Cummings' family aren't involved in the app. It's just the director shares the same surname which is an unfortunate coincidence.



Other countries have reduced social distancing outside. I think we will follow suite in a couple of weeks.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 9 2020, 08:03 PM

Interestingly, after summer Berlin and Brandenburg have both announced today that their schools will go back to completely normal with no social distancing. Nursery goes back to normal from Monday from Brandenburg and a week Monday for Berlin. Not sure about the other states as I got the news from our local broadcaster that covers the two states.

That seems to suggest they either think that a) kids aren’t super spreaders or b) rates of transmission are so low that normality is a risk we can afford.

Bars are open here now, opening hour restrictions are removed for establishments. We’re almost fully back to normal here aside from masks and limits on number of people in stores at once

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 9 2020, 08:05 PM

You definitely picked a good time to move to Germany - I get the impression that the summer here is going to be a complete write-off. : (

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 9 2020, 08:19 PM

In hindsight, I really did. We can leave the country to the EU/EEA/UK from Monday and have no need to self-isolate upon return. I’m so excited to get to travel home for a couple of weeks (even if I have to quarantine on arrival)


It’s not over, far from, but the Gov seems to have done fairly well and we’ve come through in a reasonable position compared to other countries, especially given how late our lockdown was.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 9 2020, 08:22 PM

Small shops are due to open up from Friday in Northern Ireland, and it looks like we'll be able to start having mass again from the end of the month (which might not be a big deal for most of you, but for me, is a blessed relief). We've now gone 3 days without a death from Coronavirus - the big one being today, as Sunday/Monday usually have lower numbers due to the weekend, so as long as the R rate doesn't creep up again without warning, it looks like our island is over the worst of it.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 9 2020, 08:26 PM

Do you know how many patients are still in ICU in NI?

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 9 2020, 08:31 PM

There are 53 in hospital with 9 in ICU, according to https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/ni-coronavirus-cases-breakdown-no-18388187.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 9 2020, 09:34 PM

Seems like once these cases are either discharged or unfort pass away we could be in a situation of startingnto control things but of course the cases in the south are important also as we live on a small Island.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 10 2020, 03:09 PM

Posted by: T Boy Jun 10 2020, 03:39 PM

Wasn’t that the same week we all asked why we weren’t getting a lockdown and everyone else was? The same week Boris told us to just keeping washing our hands, singing happy birthday twice and to take it on the chin?

So much blood on their hands.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 10 2020, 03:54 PM

Don't forget that it was rumoured at the time that Johnson's hand was forced when Pres. Macron threatened to close the border if the UK didn't act.

Posted by: The Snake Jun 10 2020, 03:58 PM

I admire your optimism but I am quite sure the R rate will rise again even in NI. Any second wave will be more in England I think though, because of restrictions being eased a bit more quickly than NI in general, a higher population density and there having been more non-socially distanced protests.

As for mass, they will have to socially distance mass and not allow too many people into a church at once.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 10 2020, 04:12 PM

It really is the perfect time for the inevitable no-deal Brexit.

Posted by: Andrew. Jun 10 2020, 04:16 PM

This needs to be retweeted everywhere

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 10 2020, 04:18 PM

I'm still confused by the UK lockdown start. What was the damn point in advising but not making it mandatory?

For the record, I started my lockdown as soon as they advised it, thinking everything would close.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 10 2020, 04:24 PM

If we have a no-deal Brexit it's going to be absolutely chaotic, said before that I work in the food industry. There will be genuine product shortages in the supply chain as most of the stockpiling people had been doing for a no-deal Brexit was used during Covid-19. And you just cannot produce the same tonnage with the measures in place. What already was a terrible decision, will be absolute catastrophic.

I've seen some of the shite they want businesses to implement and there's no chance it can be done.

Posted by: RabbitFurCoat Jun 10 2020, 05:27 PM

This is incredible really. Only a government containing this shower of shite could get Health and the economy so wrong.

Posted by: Jack Jun 10 2020, 05:35 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/10/support-bubble-plan-lets-single-parents-in-england-combine-households

It's saying here single people can join with multi households but then on BBC saying it's only single people living separately by themselves who would be able to combine households??

It's so infuriating that the media can't just report straight facts in times like this and the government can't just be crystal clear with information. It's not difficult ffs.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 10 2020, 05:50 PM

I would assume that the household that a single person household can mix with can be anything from an entire family to just another single person - but that you cannot include any other households within that bubble. So both apply, e.g. join with a household with multiple people in it, OR one other single person.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 10 2020, 05:50 PM

Seems to me that it's people living by themselves can now tack on to a household to create some form of bubble. Seems sensible to me for the next week at least.

I only caught bits of the conference, but pretty clear they won't advise anything until Track & Trace goes fully operational. I also got the opinion that is the Government goes down it's going to take professor Neil Ferguson with it.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 10 2020, 05:51 PM

It does take a special degree of incompetence to fail so badly.

Posted by: RabbitFurCoat Jun 10 2020, 05:53 PM

Yeah, I took it that I'd be able to join a bubble with my parents, but not if my brother also did with them.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 10 2020, 05:56 PM

I assume it'll all be restricted to outdoors anyway will it not?

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 10 2020, 06:02 PM

Nope - you can stay overnight and don't have to practice 'social distancing', i.e. you effectively would become tacked on to the household you choose to join together with.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 10 2020, 06:37 PM

It won’t affect me being in Wales but wouldn’t it mean that only one of me or my brother could stay with our parents because we’re both alone?

Again, it feels like Boris is rushing out ‘good news’ in an attempt to cover up everything else.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 10 2020, 07:03 PM

Not bad so basically you can join with a family member and hope that neither household gets it.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 11 2020, 02:26 PM

From 12 March, 11 days before Johnson finally did something.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 11 2020, 03:16 PM

Surely that comes down to a lot of the root cause is we have a Cabinet full of Junior Ministers, who have got jobs based on their ideology rather than their skills and experience.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 11 2020, 04:44 PM

The Cabinet is full of the pro-Brexit tories that Boris needed for what he thought would be his only job. The fact that they were inexperienced and useless didn’t come into it.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 11 2020, 05:13 PM

I don't think it's to do with the cabinet it's Sage who advised them differently to the WHO. I mean by the middle of March so many surrounding countries were in lockdown that the Uk people themselves started making their own decisions to protect their families.

It did likely come down to ideology when you have a Tory government who value private wealth over public health.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 11 2020, 05:31 PM

It’s appearing that SAGE did tell the Gov to lockdown before they did

Posted by: The Snake Jun 11 2020, 06:31 PM

Again I am probably in the minority here, but I don't think it should be introduced so soon. If people can meet their family outdoors as many times as they want socially distanced that's good enough without putting the low R rate under risk by allowing house visits.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 11 2020, 07:03 PM

*coughs*

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 12 2020, 02:57 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-chief-nurse-dominic-cummings-ruth-may-daily-briefing-downing-street-a9562741.html

Posted by: T Boy Jun 12 2020, 04:44 PM

My god they really think he is more important than anyone else, don’t they?

Posted by: Envoirment Jun 12 2020, 05:42 PM

The R number is rising slightly and is between 0.8-1.0 in England. It's 0.8-1.1 in the South West.

Given more shops are going to open from Monday, it looks like England's R number will pass 1 overall again.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 12 2020, 08:58 PM

The opening of shops is not likely to cause a significant impact at all and hasn’t in any other country that reopened shops.

The increase in R has been attributed to within hospitals particularly the outbreak at Wester Super Mare hospital staff. It was stated at the briefing today we are moving from community incidence, to over time more local, discrete, individual outbreaks, including in hospitals and other settings.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 12 2020, 09:17 PM

It's to be expected really though, the big problem going forward will be hospitals as we don't want another case where anyone going in to hospital picks up Covid.

It will be interesting to see how this is managed going forward as even the regions stated are not really geographically accurate. I suspect they will start locking down cities/areas rather than the whole of the South West. We need to tred pretty slowly and carefully as there's only one chance to crack this, there is no way we are going back in to a country wide lockdown again. I don't mean that's England specific, from what I've read, it seems every country is following that same motto too. Harsh reality, but suspect that's the case now.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 13 2020, 11:54 AM

https://www.endcoronavirus.org/countries

Congratulations to neighbouring IRELAND who now makes the 'Countries successfully beating Covid-19' list. Also shout out to Mongolia which has had ZERO deaths despite neighbouring China. Big respect!

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 13 2020, 12:32 PM

Some of the graphs on that seem a bit suspect - how come Paraguay have been classified as "Winning" even though their cases seem to have surged in the past week (as as a lot of South America, unfortunately). Also not sure why Kosovo are "Nearly There" when their cases now seem to be at their highest. Will take Ireland's victory for sure.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 13 2020, 12:43 PM

The actual numbers in Kosovo are very low so the graph is a bit meaningless.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 13 2020, 12:45 PM

There's no scale so some of them look a lot worse than they are. Paraguay had 24 new cases yesterday. Kosovo (at an average of 22 new cases/day) is an anomaly because it isn't recognised by Pointless as a country !

Posted by: *Tim Jun 13 2020, 12:52 PM

This graph seems to just look at daily cases right?
As a lot of countries that are "nearly there" seem to be doing a lot better than portrayed when you look at deaths and hospitalisatios

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 13 2020, 01:19 PM

But can that be trusted? Im not sure.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 13 2020, 01:23 PM

Yes.

https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/is-it-for-real-how-vietnam-and-mongolia-kept-their-covid-19-death-toll-at-zero/600388

Posted by: The Snake Jun 13 2020, 08:11 PM

Mongolia closed its border with China very early, plus it doesn't have that big a population of older people.

So according to this the US daily case numbers are starting to go down now a bit finally, so maybe they have peaked there now?

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 13 2020, 08:27 PM

It's very noticeable that the UK and US figures are falling far slower than they went up. Many other countries have a far more symmetrical curve.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 13 2020, 08:33 PM

They re-opened too quickly. Plenty of states are seeing rises again, as well as some even daily records

Posted by: Envoirment Jun 14 2020, 03:01 PM

It certainly hasn't peaked in the US. Over half of US states are recording increases in the number of cases. In particular, Florida, Texas & California. I wouldn't be surprised to see Florida become the next epicentre of the pandemic in the US - especially as the lockdown is being rolled back across the US. Which doesn't make any sense given the increase in cases.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 14 2020, 04:42 PM

Cases or deaths? As it's clear as mud lots of countries are fiddling their reporting figures (see Spain for a classic example). Meanwhile our death figures aren't entirely accurate from a daily perspective due to reporting and timing lags.

Posted by: Euphorique Jun 14 2020, 08:01 PM

Seems like South America is having huge issues atm

Posted by: Rooney Jun 14 2020, 09:11 PM

It's the current epicentre. It's very worrying especially when the gaps between rich and poor are vene bigger in Latin America compared to Western Europe. I don't know how Brazil get out of their current predicament. Not sure what the border situations are, but it does not look good. I think thw more worrying aspect of the problem in Brazil, as if the President has anyway he's gonna to start some form of Dictatorship again.

Posted by: mdh Jun 14 2020, 11:41 PM

Yes, glad someone else has picked up on the curious case of Spain. In all honesty, I don’t trust any country’s COVID figures - whether it’s the UK, Germany, Russia or whoever. Best to take it all with a pinch of salt as 90% of national leaders are tossers who’ll happily fiddle figures to paint themselves in a good light :,)

Posted by: Rooney Jun 15 2020, 09:25 AM

That's also part of the problem, it's difficult to compare like for like as there are so much many countries are hiding (and we probably have an extra 10,000-20,000 deaths that were Covid related as well). We tried to pull the wool over the eyes with figures too in the early days. It's useful as a guide but the data is also pretty useless when there is no clear and consistent reporting mechanism.

Be interested to hear people's thoughts on the 2m rule- seems like the Chancellor and the back benchers are pushing for it to be reduced, but the Scientists want it kept at 2m for the time being. There have also been a few murmors of resignations from Vallance and Whitty if that's the case.

My view is I totally agree for the hospitality/leisure industry to become viable the 2m rule needs to be reduced. BUT I'd only support it if the scientists agreed. It's going to happen at some point, but I'd much rather the hospitality industry trial out a 3-4 week period at 2m and then cut it to 1.5/1m rather than deciding to implement on 4th July.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 15 2020, 12:01 PM

It’s always been 1,5m here!



The state authorities have quarantined an entire apartment block For 14 days over a corona outbreak. Our officials seem to have learned a few things from the SE Asian response and taking this tactic rather than locking down a whole district

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 15 2020, 03:44 PM

My view on 2 M is that it is there to ensure people stay at least 1 M apart because people generally underestimate how much space they are leaving between them, but I would imagine it makes sense - for the reasons you've mentioned Rooney- to relax the rules once we have a proper track & trace programme in place and we have mandatory face covering in enclosed public spaces.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 15 2020, 04:22 PM

I get the impression the Government is stalling, trying to keep the lobbyists happening with a review which will last "a few weeks" which conveniently gets us to 4th July. Looking at some of the shops today, the Government would be absolutely stupid to go-live in leisure/hospitality with 1m social distancing. I mean, you wouldn't put it past them but I don't think it will change at least for a couple of weeks after hospitality is allowed to re-open.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 16 2020, 03:24 PM

Germany launched its tracing app today. Do we have more details on when ours goes live here?

The empathy really radiated here — either way, we're unfortunately back up to 233 deaths reported today. Still, a further decline from last week, but quite the plateau.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 16 2020, 04:14 PM

Ugh I hate the war terminology constantly being used. We’re not winning anything. 41,969 deaths is not in any shape a victory.

I see Beijing have closed schools.

Posted by: Jack Jun 16 2020, 04:31 PM

I sadly think it's only a matter of time for a second wave and restrictions come into place again, possibly even stricter Hopefully not for a while though so we can enjoy the easing of the restrictions for however little amount of time that may be.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 16 2020, 04:45 PM

I can’t see our government wanting to lock us back down even if they need to.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 16 2020, 05:09 PM

There won't be a 2nd full lockdown across the country. If there is a 2nd wave, there will be a economy vs health trade-off and the economy will win. Another lockdown would cripple the country. Pretty much every country in the world has said they won't be locking down again. It's why we only have one chance at this and why we would tred pretty lightly imo.

Deaths are still high, but it's also a false narrative as a bulk of these will have been over the weekend. I'm not sure why after 3 months there are still reporting lags and deaths being found here and there from weeks gone by.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 16 2020, 10:02 PM

Is this the second wave that was coming after Easter, VE Day, end of May bank holiday and all the trips to the beach?

Posted by: *Tim Jun 16 2020, 10:06 PM

Nah, those kept the 1st wave afloat

Edit: Also it was a RISK of a spike in new cases, but it seems like the good weather is playing a role as the BLM protest in Amsterdam also didnt cause a lot of new infections, which was feared.

But we do not know enough yet to be 100% sure about how this virus spreads in whichever circumstances. Thats why every risk is a scare at the same time. Just look at the recent flare up in Beijing

Posted by: Harve Jun 16 2020, 10:18 PM

I don't think there will be a second wave (=exponential growth in cases as in March and April), for what it's worth. Unless you mean a second wave to be a prolonged first wave, which is what we're seeing now.

There will probably continue to be local clusters sprouting up in places but in the context of a slow, Europe-wide decline.

Posted by: Andrew. Jun 16 2020, 10:18 PM

I have...no words lmao

Posted by: Alex P Jun 16 2020, 11:35 PM

You have zero evidence to prove that is what specifically kept the first wave afloat,

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 16 2020, 11:50 PM

I don't think Tim was quite saying that - anyway, what do YOU think is the reason that the UK and the US have new case rates 10 X higher than most other western countries that have went through the peak of Covid-19 cases in late March?

Posted by: *Tim Jun 17 2020, 07:32 AM

It sure was a contributing factor amongst other things though. The platteau is there.

However I do think the UK was on the right side of the decline when things started loosening etc. You only have to look at the south of the US to see what happens when restrictions are loosened too quickly

Posted by: *Tim Jun 17 2020, 10:59 AM

Germany is likely to ban big events till the end of october according to the news. Mutti Merkel is discussing that amongst loosening other resteictions today

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 17 2020, 11:53 AM

Our app has been downloaded 6,5m times in a day as well!!

We have a big flare up in Berlin but like everywhere it seems to be connected to a particular event rather than widespread community transmission. The authorities aren’t too worried.


Not opposed to mass events continuing to be banned to be honest. Feels like a smart precaution at this time. Some outdoor events should be able to return though as the risk is significantly lower

Posted by: Rooney Jun 17 2020, 12:00 PM

Am I right in thinking most of the outbreaks across Western Europe have been predominately think to healthcare areas/ care homes post lockdown? And the odd big event, which can be tracked. Banning large events seems the most sensible, I would hope the UK would follow suit and continue to do so for the rest of 2020. Especially when we have new epicentres across India and Latin America.

It's why I'm starting to question the validity of the R0 number in the UK as there is such a low data set. In the city I live in we have had no new cases verified for 8 days now for example and I'm sure there are similar trends across the country in mid-size cities.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 17 2020, 12:50 PM

The code for the app is open source which means it can be copied and adapted by other countries free of charge. The UK, meanwhile, blunders on trying to create its own "world-beating" app.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 17 2020, 01:03 PM

The big outbreaks I know of in my neighbourhood are at a mink factory in NL, Coal mine in PL and about half a dozen meat processing factories across DE. Then within Germany there’s been quite a few linked to religious services, all Christian I believe. One apartment block in southern berlin has had a major outbreak, not wholly sure what it is linked to.

The R0 still has some value but when you’re on a low number of cases it is hyper volatile to small changes in infections


The app is also pretty gold standard when it comes to data privacy, given the Nazi and DDR regimes it really needed to be in order to get the trust of people here to download it. Many are saying they won’t for data privacy reasons still, even with the precautions.

Hopefully they roll it out on the international App Store and other countries use it

Posted by: Izzy Jun 17 2020, 01:18 PM

Always the big worry with these apps, that they will be used for data tracking. The ones in China are directly tied to the big payment methods which force real-name and mobile number attachments, but it's not like I was expecting anything less.

If the German one is good on privacy and open source, then the only two reasons I can think for governments who haven't got their own yet to not use it is either to save face or because they wish to avail themselves of an opportunity for data harvesting.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 17 2020, 01:23 PM

I have it and can confirm it’s data privacy credentials. I haven’t had to give any details to sign up. No email of phone number. It has no location tracking abilities and when it warns about a contact being positive it doesn’t when where or who - mainly because it doesn’t know the last two.

You can only mark yourself as sick with a QR code from your health authorities following a positive test, so no false positives

Posted by: Rooney Jun 17 2020, 02:51 PM

I didn't know there were so many big outbreaks, for me it just shows the benefit of a track and trace. It's naive across all countries to suspect there won't be any large outbreaks, but the key to it all is recognising if you are infected and then self isolating to stop the spread.

Totally agree about the R0 number as well, I think in the UK we are mainly OK. It does appear that some regions/areas seem to be badly affected more than others but the data that is shared does not allow us to make the assumption thoroughly.

Worrying for me is the growth of infection in India and Brazil in particular as I mentioned before. Seems like it has totally spiraled out of control, which is why I am all for the border restrictions/quarantine and possible air bridges with European countries in the short term at least. The news in Beijing is concerning as well as the symptoms appear to be different. But I have a hard time to believe what is coming out of China's mouth at the moment as it doesn't add up.

Posted by: Harve Jun 17 2020, 03:08 PM

I'm not sure I trust everything about China's data but I do believe some things that suggest they contained it better than many European countries are broadly true. Unlike, say, the UK, I believe the virus has been indeed mostly contained to one province, and unlike France, community transmission has been eradicated more decisively, which would make China's situation a lot better than what catastrophists were claiming in March (my colleague was talking about hundreds of thousands of deaths there).

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 17 2020, 03:12 PM

Air bridges with which countries? Most of the candidate countries have a lower infection rate than the UK which would make those countries wary of any agreement with the UK. The discussion about the possibility seems to be aimed at blaming "forrinaz" when those countries refuse any offer of an air bridge. The headlines "Europe says to Brits - we don't want you" are all too predictable.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 17 2020, 03:23 PM

Sweden is probably on offer.

I see the UK has seeded a new outbreak in New Zealand, doesn't it make you proud??

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 17 2020, 03:30 PM

And that was a crazy story indeed! Just goes to show even the most lauded governments can have one minor oversight and panic will ensue again. This will be just as tricky to manage from now as it was initially especially now borders are re-opening.

Posted by: Izzy Jun 17 2020, 03:43 PM

The recent outbreak in Beijing (cancelling flights, testing tens of thousands of people in the city in a matter of days) has made everybody quite nervy again from what I can tell. Whatever else you can say, they aren't lax at dealing with cases when they do show up. I fully expect that if I'd been to Beijing recently I'd have been asked to take a quarantine.

Public transport in particular is still very strictly controlled.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 17 2020, 04:27 PM

Well the countries which need tourism to survive would be pretty keen. I am not 100% sold on the idea, it works both ways as we need to protect ourselves and other nations and hope to keep our airlines from going completely bust. Spain and Portugal seem to be pushing the idea of air bridges pretty hard.

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 17 2020, 07:40 PM

Speaking of blunders...

Posted by: shadow2009 Jun 17 2020, 09:39 PM

I actually work as a contact tracer and have done for a month now...and we still haven't made any calls. It's not very encouraging.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 17 2020, 09:41 PM

It's just like the NHS volunteers back in March. They sign up lots of people to generate good headlines and then give them nothing to do.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 18 2020, 04:35 AM

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 18 2020, 06:55 AM

1,500 UK Paediatricians write to PM demanding that schools re-open now.

From Royal College Of Paediatricians.

Open letter from UK paediatricians about the return of children to schools

17 June 2020

"As paediatricians we are increasingly concerned by the continued absence of millions of children
from schools. This interruption is without precedent and risks scarring the life chances of a
generation of young people.
Clinically, most young people have been spared the worst effects of COVID-19 but the health and
social impact will be severe.
The brunt of the impact of COVID-19 is and will continue to be borne by children and families who
have the fewest resources and need the most support. The attainment gap was significant long
before the pandemic. Children from disadvantaged backgrounds are twice as likely to leave school
without national qualifications in English and maths compared with better off peers. Left unchecked,
COVID-19 will exacerbate existing problems and deepen structural social and health inequalities.
School is about much more than learning. It is a vital point of contact for public health services,
safeguarding and other initiatives. This includes access to mental health support, vaccinations,
special therapies, free school meals, physical activity and early years services that help children get
the best start in life. For many children and their families, these interventions are the difference
between surviving and thriving. In their absence our already frayed safety net cannot function, and
we risk failing a generation.
We recognise the efforts of school leaders, local authorities, teachers and other professionals, who
have worked tirelessly to facilitate learning for our children and young people. They deserve
decisive leadership from the top of government.
We note that plans have been published for children to begin returning to school in Scotland and
Wales. We call on the UK government and the Northern Ireland Executive to urgently publish clear
plans for getting children back to school; and for all UK governments to deliver recovery plans for
children and young people.
Without such action, the effects of COVID-19 will linger far beyond the pandemic itself and will limit
the life chances of children and young people for years to come.
Signed,
1,500 members of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health

Posted by: blacksquare Jun 18 2020, 01:14 PM

...All this time wasted. A recurring theme at this point.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 18 2020, 01:26 PM

Agreed it's time wasted, but we are not alone in being in that regard.

Seems a sensible decision if Track & Trace would not be live until Winter. It's clear from around the world we really need it to be live to help us move forward. Does all seem a great big mess, but I guess that's project management for us all in general.

Posted by: Andrew. Jun 18 2020, 01:28 PM

You actually couldn’t make it up God the sooner we get this so-called government rammed with ignorant and incompetent cretins out (2024 lol) the better x

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 18 2020, 02:01 PM

I hope they will be deducting all the tax Apple and Google have dodged from the fee. That should leave a fee of minus quite a lot.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 18 2020, 03:40 PM

It's not like anything important is impacted by this like... public health or the ENTIRE BASIS of our economy. I guess that's just the Tories for you in general.

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 18 2020, 04:04 PM

Hairdressers are due to open in Northern Ireland from 6th July, so I can finally get my accidental mullet seen to. Places of worship are likely to open from 29th June as well, and social distancing has been reduced to 1 metre in a classroom setting.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 18 2020, 04:21 PM

So what happens at the hairdressers then- are you and the hairdresser having to wear masks? I had mine cut outdoors by an illicit home operating hairdresser because to be honest it needed a cut in March!

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 18 2020, 05:14 PM

I’m not sure of the exact details yet, but I imagine that they will be by appointment to keep less people in the shop, and keeping a mask on , except briefly to get at the sideburns.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 18 2020, 09:33 PM

How many infection was there in the uk today?

There is a story by Victoria Mcadonald on the Ch4 news that there is a bad outbreak in a chicken factory in Wales of 58 cases. The factory reportedly serves M&S and KFC. There are smaller outbreaks in Leicester and part of Yorkshire according to contact tracers.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 18 2020, 10:22 PM

Heatwave next week with temperatures in the South up to maybe 33c or 90f. The virus doesn't like heat.

Posted by: Harve Jun 19 2020, 04:39 AM

Outbreaks are currently accelerating in parts of Brazil, Mexico, India and Arizona. Let's not post blatantly false info.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 19 2020, 08:27 AM

I tend to agree as well. I don't think weather has much affect at all on the virus, only that it likely does die quicker on outside surfaces.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 19 2020, 10:42 AM

The UK has now moved from Alert Level 4 to 3 which is promising.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 19 2020, 10:42 AM

Level 3 now.. even though we have already been there for a couple of weeks

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 19 2020, 11:24 AM

I believe we were in that made-up "transitioning phase" for the past few weeks rather than "officially" being level 3.

Posted by: mdh Jun 19 2020, 02:30 PM

Good to see us at level 3. Surprised but happy to see that this "second wave" that everyone on social media was so adamant would come hasn't happened yet. Hoorah.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 19 2020, 02:53 PM

There are some suggestions that Vitamin D helps as a protection against it. If so, we would expect fewer cases in the summer when more sunlight means we get more Vitamin D. It could also help to explain why BAME people seem to be more vulnerable as darker skinned people living in temperate climates (such as hours) tend to have lower levels of Vitamin D. That's all largely guesswork though.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 19 2020, 03:13 PM

Think this is what we can all get used to happening from here on. Outbreaks and localised containment measures

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 19 2020, 03:19 PM

It was in the news yesterday again that Vitamin D deficiency means you can get it worse but not particularly that you're of higher risk of catching it. I take a multi-vitamin every day and it has 200% of the recommended adult daily amount. Also people with blood group A can get it worse. C is the most common in the UK and we're both C.

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 19 2020, 03:19 PM

Well after the mass protests and those quarantine raves in Manchester or wherever it was I think it was fair to expect rises but hopefully the downwards trend continues.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 19 2020, 03:20 PM

Why is flu far more prevalent in Winter then?

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 19 2020, 03:34 PM

There appears to be a reasonably strong link between obesity/diabetes and deaths from Covid-19, and the Vitamin D link would also go some way to explain the difference in death rates between men and women (more men suffer from severe Vitamin D deficiency), and there is some compelling evidence to support it... however in both cases surely "stay at home" and limiting exercise to 1 hour a day were both counter-productive?

Posted by: T Boy Jun 19 2020, 03:39 PM

I really want to go to my gym again. I’m overweight and as much as I try, I’m not very good at home exercise and I was doing really well until lockdown started. Sometimes I do worry I’m more at risk as things are, especially since I’m back at work week after next.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 19 2020, 03:41 PM

I don't understand why everyone doesn't just take a multi-vitamin every day. They're not that expensive if you just buy the basic ones without added things like zinc and iron etc.and many people don't have a brilliant diet these days.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 19 2020, 03:58 PM

Does the UK use a different bloodgroup system? I've never heard of bloodgroup C, only A B AB and O

Yesterday saw the biggest worldwide increase yet, 150k


Because the flu and covid are 2 completely different virusses. Flu is a member of the Influenza family, whilst covid is a coronavirus. You cannot apply the logic of 1 virus to another. If that were the case HIV would be more prevalent in the winter as well.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 19 2020, 04:04 PM

They've moved our gym at work outside and kept it in use with social distancing and a thorough clean between each use- I imagine gyms will cautiously begin reopening from 4th July?

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 19 2020, 04:04 PM

OMG sorry, yes O.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 19 2020, 04:07 PM

O used to be called 'C'... many, MANY decades ago.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 19 2020, 04:09 PM

Yes it did. I am old.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 19 2020, 04:20 PM

I hope so. My gym have already emailed me their plans for social distancing and are just waiting for the go ahead. It’s been 3 months since my last swim

Posted by: *Tim Jun 19 2020, 04:23 PM

Oh well that makes sense!
I was thinking the UK had the tendency to want to be different with such things but this'd be overboard

Posted by: Dobbo Jun 19 2020, 04:23 PM

I'm keen to get back to gymming again (I quit my last one in August so it will nearly have been an entire year since going regularly ) but I can't help thinking it's gonna be near impossible as they'll be ridiculously popular as it is plus the max capacity won't be a high as previous.

Posted by: Harve Jun 19 2020, 04:50 PM

You are talking about two different viruses.

Posted by: Oliver Jun 19 2020, 06:27 PM

Yet another party next door, starting to get bored of ringing the police.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 19 2020, 08:05 PM

I think there is a lot of sense to that, certainly I would suspect that as September rolls round there may be advice to either take supplements or make sure we are eating our cereal every morning.

Personally I think it’s highly likely IF we do get a second wave it will come in the winter. But I would also be pretty surprised if we reached our peak seen over Easter. Just my thoughts of course and with no evidence but I think there would be less chance for the virus to spread like it did in March.

But while Europe seems to be over the worst of it, the virus growth across the rest of the world is worrying. I know we need aviation but the virus spread so much from international travel before. Quite simply imo we have to protect our borders as much as we can to limit the virus spreading. Clear we are not out of the mud yet but we are slowly getting there..

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 19 2020, 08:56 PM

You may we’ll be right about the winter. Unfortunately, the government (and other governments) are going to have to start thinking about the possibility of serious limits on what people can do at Christmas. It’s also why the disgraced former defence secretary’s commitment to have all children back in school in September is a hostage to fortune. Of course we all hope they will be, but why make such a firm promise when there are factors you can’t control?

Posted by: T Boy Jun 19 2020, 09:12 PM

It’s a reactionary response to criticism and they’ve been doing this about all issues the whole time. At least in Wales we’ll be trialling part time school in July, something that can be carried on in September if things don’t change. Hopefully by then social distancing will be a bit looser.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 19 2020, 09:17 PM

Indeed. That sums up this government’s approach in a nutshell. It’s all about short-term headlines.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 20 2020, 12:13 AM

55,000 new cases in Brazil today. I believe this is the one day peak above any other country now.

The US death rates seem to be consistently below 1,000 now. Interesting that cases have always been 20,000+ per day but deaths have steadily decreased. It would be good to know why in terms of whether the virus is weakening, whether medical staff are now better equipped and more knowledgeable on how to deal with the virus or whether the most vulnerable who would have been susceptible to the virus have already passed.

Posted by: Harve Jun 20 2020, 06:11 AM

The number of new cases falling more slowly than the number of deaths is probably because of a change in who is being tested. At the beginning of the epidemic, the testing capacity just wasn't there and a large proportion of tests were being performed on those being admitted to hospital, with more milder cases not being detected. Those being admitted to hospital are disproportionately older people at a greater risk of death, which will have artificially raised the death rate. Now that testing has been expanded, a greater proportion of all cases are detected, including those with mild forms of the disease.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 20 2020, 06:14 AM

There is some evidence to suggest that as the virus has gradually mutated it has developed weaker and less fatal strains - this is apparently quite normal.

I would imagine a combination of more comprehensive testing, slightly weaker strains of Covid-19 and a slightly reduced number of most vulnerable people in the population have all played a part in this. IFR (Infection Fatality Rate) has been roughly estimated at between 0.5% (NYC) and 0.7% but varies massively with age... e.g. in 40-49 year olds it is typically 0.04% and much lower below this, whereas in >70 year olds it rises very quickly above 1% to 1/10 90 year olds.

If you take an average IFR of 0.6% and assume that the Covid-19 infections were spread evenly then you could estimate that around 10 million people have been infected in the UK. (60,000 excess deaths / 0.6% IFR = Total Covid-19 infections)

The WHO originally estimated IFR at 3.4% - which IMO was just scaremongering!

Posted by: Harve Jun 20 2020, 06:43 AM

If we take NYC's fatality rate estimate and apply it to UK deaths then this would mean that over 8 000 000 people in Britain have had the virus (300 000 cases have been officially detected).

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 20 2020, 06:50 AM

I think the ONS study had estimates of around 6-8% of the population with antibodies, so that isn't far off - but probably can't assume that the infections have been evenly distributed, especially with the disastrous decision early on to discharge patients from hospital to care homes without proper testing in order to make capacity.

About 1/3, or 20K of excess deaths have been from care homes alone.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 20 2020, 07:34 AM

I wouldn't say it was scaremongering - the figures quoted supported the figure of 3.4%. However, I suspect the figures made no allowance for the number of asymptomatic cases, probably because they assumed the numbers were very low. There are now good reasons to believe there have been a lot of asymptomatic cases although we still have no real idea of how many.

Yes, it is quite normal for a virus to mutate to a less deadly strain. After all, for a virus to survive, it is not a good idea to kill a large number of hosts. if that mutation continues, we may get to a point where it is easier just to live with its continued existence. The only caveat to that is that we still don't know what the long-term effects are for people who have had it.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 20 2020, 08:02 AM

The asymptomatic rate isn't that great though, around 20% I think and mainly children or young adults, however I take your point. SAGE were estimating at or just below 1% for IFR but it is really difficult to come up with a useful estimate at the start of a pandemic which is why I was surprised they put that figure out there so quickly.

I suspect that the reason Italy was so badly affected initally was that it was quickly spread among the more highly susceptible older population (many <30s still live with older parents), conversely in Germany which has a similar age demographic to Italy it spread quickly among the healthy and younger population who are less likely to mix with older generations in the home.

Brazil is an interesting case.. clearly no such problems with Vitamin D nor an aging population and yet the 2nd highest death total in the world now.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 20 2020, 08:04 AM

You can blame a stupid president, no lockdown, a subpar health care system on the verge of collapsing for that

Posted by: Alex P Jun 20 2020, 09:36 AM

Reasons noted above and densely populated favelas.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 20 2020, 09:49 AM

The stats are interesting at the moment as Peru, Chile, Pakistan will over take all of the European countries within the next couple of weeks, other than the U.K., yet have really low death rates in comparison, I guess we have to assume these countries are not recording all deaths or there are other reasons why Europe has been more susceptible to high deaths.

.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 20 2020, 10:11 AM

A main part in that is that testing is more widely done than it was in Europe.

In the Netherlands +-900k people have antibodies, yet only 50k have tested positive due to the lack of test kits available at that time. I also am sceptical about the truth of the deaths as reports are coming in of covidpatients being noted as pneumonia in various countries but I donr think we'll ever find out

Posted by: Alex P Jun 20 2020, 10:41 AM

I had an antibody test and it was negative. Not convinced it is accurate as I had a lot of the symptoms including loss of taste and smell back in March. Given I was on the underground everyday back in early March I can’t think what else it would have been.

So either faulty test, anti bodies don’t last long or I never had it in the first place.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 20 2020, 11:06 AM

I think the WHO initial estimates are as good as is reasonable to expect given that they initially had data from an uncooperative and unreliable source. Unlike other countries, China isn’t including asymptomatic people in their headline count of virus cases which impacts the reliability of the initial IFR

Posted by: *Tim Jun 20 2020, 11:07 AM

The accuracy of serological tests are questionable right now, as they produce a fast result. Thankfully it only gives false negatives, not false positives so that's something I guess

Molecular testing would be more accurate but also a lot more expensive and time consuming

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jun 20 2020, 11:21 AM

A lot of the countries that are currently being hit are in the southern hemisphere ie it is their winter rather than our summer, so that could have an effect on cases. It will be worth keeping an eye on countries in the Southern Hemisphere that had handled their response to the outbreak reasonably well (New Zealand, Australia) to see if the changing of the seasons has any impact.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 20 2020, 11:27 AM

Interesting that you mention New Zealand.. the 2 women from the UK who arrived in the country this month and subsequently tested positive for Covid-19, well apparently they met up with friends and have generated over 400 contacts. So far a further 3 new Covid-19 positive cases have been traced from these contacts.

Oops.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 20 2020, 11:38 AM

New Zealand probably wish they hadn't opened up again.

I imagine the fact the Southern Hemisphere is in winter now only effects more southern nations as places like Brazil are near the equator and don't really have a winter so it would still be warm.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 20 2020, 02:02 PM

I don't think it's that New Zealand wish they didn't open, but it just shows how trying to show compassion has led to a potential small outbreak. They should have been tested before they were let loose.

I think the different deatha dn infection rates just highlight what I have been banging on about for weeks now, there is now standard across countries so Governments across the world can present the data how they like. Like take our country for example, don't they suspect that for 22 odd days we had over 1,000 deaths per day for Covid-19? Yet it you look at our figures it doesn't say that. It's still a useful metric to give a vastly reduced estimate I suppose, but I don't think it's useful to be comparing like for like against countries as it's painfully obvious the real situation is far worse across the world in terms of infected and deaths.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 20 2020, 09:46 PM

Do you have a source for this as the two new positive cases today were a couple who came back from India. I can’t find any information on other positives linked to these two women.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 20 2020, 10:14 PM

I think Doctor B or his source got confused. 3 new cases emerged in the quarantaine facilities but had no relation to the 2 sisters

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341500

It's quit obvious that the tests come back negative given the incubation time :')

Posted by: Envoirment Jun 21 2020, 12:28 AM

Brazil is a large country and the southern half can get somewhat chilly in winter. I believe the population density is higher in the southern half of the country as well. There's also the decrease in length of days, meaning less sun, during winter too. Although I doubt it'll have much of an effect.

Brazil's issues are likely more so due to the lack of a government response and their healthcare system being pushed beyond its limits. There are likely a lot of deaths happening which wouldn't have happened if proper medical treatment was given.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 21 2020, 08:49 AM

You're right, the 3 new cases were unrelated thankfully. They had met up with friends though, which they were advised against.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 22 2020, 06:27 PM

Some age analysis of new US infections


In Texas: Young adults driving the spike.
https://texastribune.org/2020/06/16/texas-coronavirus-spike-young-adults/…

In Arizona: COVID cases growing 2X faster among ages 20-44 than 65+.

In Florida: Median age of new COVID cases fell from 65 in March to 35 this week —>

https://twitter.com/dkthomp/status/1275061694604115968?s=21

I had mentioned a few posts back that the US death rate continues to drop despite cases accelerating and this is probably why.

Posted by: Jack Jun 23 2020, 12:09 PM

So lockdown is pretty much over now?

There is no need for them to relax the 2m rule when people are practically breathing down your neck as it is. I feel like it'll feel like it's completely normal from 4th July now.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 23 2020, 12:56 PM

Reducing it to ‘1 metre plus’ is, once again, Boris telling people what they want to hear and covering himself if it all goes tits up. It doesn’t mean anything.

I’m in Wales anyway, but how irritating all these things are opening up that I can literally wait for and yet you can’t go for a gym and swim.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 23 2020, 01:01 PM

The issue is there comes a point when you have to make a decision, the infection rate is really low and these industries will no longer exist. I'm still a fan of the 2m rule, but I'm also encouraged by the fact the science supports 1m and Labour aren't kicking off about it too.. so yes there is an element of risk involved and it's important that we mitigate the risk where possible, we also have to try and get back and running. Loads of people are going to lose their jobs regardless, I think where possible if we can we need to be supportive.

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jun 23 2020, 01:07 PM

Can't wait for the huge queues outside every pub, restaurant and store there is! Not gonna rush to those any time soon.

I am pleased barbers are open though, a mullet is not the best look for me!

Posted by: T Boy Jun 23 2020, 01:21 PM

I think you’ve misunderstood me. I have no issue with the reduction of 2 metres if that’s what the experts are saying and will happily live by that. My issue is that Boris has actually found a way to change it but not really change it at the same time so that he can be a hero but also avoid blame if something does go wrong. Classic Boris and I’m not here for it. Just commit to something.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 23 2020, 02:11 PM

I went out last weekend and everything was PACKED. Granted, only open air spaces got opened up so far but the amount of demand for cafes and bars currently is insane. It's almost impossible to find a table anywhere in the busy central areas even on Thursdays.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 23 2020, 02:21 PM

Isn't that just every politician going though? He has little wiggle room and the fact he had such a massive lead in polls which has now been dwarfed will have an impact. The good news is we have competent opposition party now who will hold the Government to account where they do get things wrong. I can only assume the leisure/hospitality business was going to completely fall flat without the 2m change. I think most businesses (especially local/smaller ones) will really struggle with the 1m rule as it is.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 23 2020, 03:24 PM

Boris isn’t just like any other politician. He’s the absolute worst there is.

And now I’m seeing reports of the daily briefing being scrapped altogether. That’s it, folks, it’s all over!

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 23 2020, 04:53 PM

Yes no more daily briefings after today.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 23 2020, 05:09 PM

I'm inclined to agree with them dropping the daily briefings - I don't think there is much more to cover (up) unless there were a significant development, and as I understand it they would then hold one.

Similarly the 2M rule is mainly there to ensure that people keep 'at least' 1M apart because people's perception of distance varies and somewhat overestimates the true distance, obviously relaxing the rule seems a little risky but if you remember the original guidance was 'where social distancing is not possible you should wear a facemask' so in restaurants and pubs I assume that is what will happen. The risk outside is actually very low, high UV, good ventilation, spread is unlikely so all the upset and anger about the protests (partly justified, but partly - from some - politically motivated reaction) was OTT. We've had 12 weeks of walking in close proximity touching fruit/veg and products in the supermarket in an enclosed space during a much higher commununity virus rate and people weren't that concerned about that.

It's a difficult decision, but the risk to the economy and subsequently lives of not opening up the economy, should it implode, far outweighs the risk of a second wave. Obviously a fully operational track & trace programme should be in place but this Government's speciality is fudge.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 23 2020, 05:48 PM

I know the briefings are pointless now but cancelling them the very day you announce all these things opening just feels like they’re dog whistling people into reckless behaviour. Some people will definitely believe it’s all over.

I dunno, maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve just had two days of intensive training to ensure I can teach following the guidelines so maybe I feel like what’s the point in all of that?

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 23 2020, 05:58 PM

Don't get me wrong the communication has been woeful.

I understand how you feel, like the Government is absolving itself of responsibility... maybe it is, it wouldn't surprise me. I don't understand why swimming pools and gyms aren't able to reopen, I still think you could reopen them but severely limit numbers, or move some of the equipment to larger rooms or even outdoor areas (where possible). Anyway I'm looking forward to being able to sit in the beer garden again, probably cause the weather to breakdown into constant rain though won't it ?! : (

Posted by: T Boy Jun 23 2020, 06:04 PM

I do agree with you with gyms and swimming pools. Yes, they are naturally very close contact, but I imagine most gyms have already worked out how to reopen safely. I would personally feel more comfortable going there than a pub.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 23 2020, 07:21 PM

Surely the issue with gyms will be more air conditioning based problems? I agree there are sensible solutions to the problem and I'd also feel better in a gym than a pub. But I don't know what gyms you guys go to but my gym is like a sauna without the air con on and I'm pretty sure in most guidelines for offices air conditioning is turned off.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 23 2020, 07:43 PM

So the county of Gutersloth in Germany is back in lockdown after 1500 people at a meet factory have spread the disease!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 23 2020, 08:58 PM

The point to remember with the distancing is that there are two main things driving the risk of being infected. The more significant one is whether the other person is carrying the virus or not.

Some estimates are that as many as one in 100 people were carrying the virus at its peak. The risk of catching it at two metres is estimated at 1.3%, meaning that the risk of catching it off a random individual was roughly one in 8,000. Now it is estimated that one in 1,000 (or more) are carrying it. If the risk of catching it at a distance of one metre is 2.6%, the overall risk becomes one in 40,000.

Cancelling the daily briefing is not a surprise. It means Johnson now only works one day per week which is pretty close to his ideal.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 23 2020, 09:01 PM

The EU is planning on continueing the travelban from the US, Brazil and Russia amongst others after july 1st

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 05:19 AM

They breached the federal limits for new cases in a 7 day period. So far still no real community transmission, just the factory itself. Track & trace is working and the “emergency brake” that Merkel agreed with the States has kicked in as expected

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 24 2020, 12:06 PM

They have put fences up round the community as the people in the factories may bring it back to their families. Think this is he future here too over the course of the summer.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 12:15 PM

Indeed they have. It has not been popular. Police have had a fair few things thrown at them. Problem being that Germany is very poor at providing information in languages that aren’t German and the folk locked down are migrant workers from Eastern Europe - and they lack the highly technical German required to fully understand the regulations. (As do I! Thankfully the city authorities in Berlin Reprints everything in English, Turkish, Russian and Arabic among others a couple of days later.)

I understand they’ve been hiring translators to help everyone understand the restrictions.


In other news, Scotland’s roadmap has been updated with a load of new

Posted by: mdh Jun 24 2020, 03:33 PM

650 new cases today. We’re fast catching up to the rest of Europe which is nice to see.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 03:48 PM

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 24 2020, 04:00 PM

Haha, second time he's got him with that. Boris really is a third rate politician, got to say it's great that we've actually now got someone in Opposition able to show him up for the incompetent dolt he truly is.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 04:50 PM

I think that's an insult to all the politicians who are bright enough to be described as third-rate.

Posted by: RabbitFurCoat Jun 24 2020, 05:43 PM

This is really encouraging considering up unto the weekend we'd never gone back below 1000 cases. It'd be interesting to know where they were likely picked up - no idea if this thing is kept, or attempted to.

I'm certainly confident that the risk of outdoor spread is very low now. The protests were a fortnight ago and we'd be seeing more infections now if they did have much impact.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 08:08 PM

As expected, in spite of the british media foaming at the mouth at an R0 of 2,88, the German authorities have found 0 confirmed cases in the community in Gütersloh with the outbreak that’s currently wrecking havoc on the National R0 being fully contained with no community spread so far.

Unlike the UK, there has been no bragging or grandstanding about being world beating. Just quietly getting on with it. And we have a functioning app and track and trace is exceedingly effective. Imagine what the UK gov could do if it put as much energy into execution as it did to mouthing off about how amazing they are!!!

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 08:10 PM

But you can't have a functioning app. Johnson said yesterday that no country did. Surely he wouldn't lie

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 08:23 PM

Not only is it functional, but our equivalent of BBC2 is trolling the sitting UK prime minister




Theres a reason I Call myself a Brexit refugee

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 08:37 PM

And, of course, we could adapt the software for use here without paying Germany a single penny.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 24 2020, 08:51 PM

And he repeated this lie at PMQs today too. So basically his reaction to Starmers forensic analysis is to bluster in a more ignorant and argumentative way.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 08:59 PM

If I remember rightly they open sourced all the code. The UK gov could copy/paste it and be up and running in days!!!

Europe’s leading hacker collective gave it a going over and their reaction was “ok yeah this is good”. If there’s one to steal, it’s possibly this one


Am I hallucinating or was the NHS app plan relying on self reporting?

Posted by: Harve Jun 24 2020, 09:03 PM

I think my country is okay on the aggregate, and I think the relaxing of the lockdown in particular has been done in a very sensible way, but I'll admit that there's been a real cockup with the app - only 1.5 million people have the app still installed and fewer still are actively using it because it absolutely destroys your battery.

Until widespread app use can be guaranteed then low tech methods are probably more effective - exchanging contact information and time of entry/exit when going to a restaurant, hairdressers etc. Locally at least we also have quite detailed tracing where if there was case of the virus in a school, then only the cases's class would need to go into quatorzaine, rather than the entire school, because we track movement within the building from classroom to classroom and recreation is staggered.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 09:05 PM

Exactly. That's my point. They wouldn't need to do much more than make sure all the messages are displayed in English.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 09:07 PM

There was a time when lying in the Commons was treated as one of the worst things any politician could do.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 24 2020, 09:16 PM

Yeah the easing in France looks really well thought out and the traffic light by region looks like a great idea. How are the restrictions for you now?

The French app isn’t running on the Google/Apple platform is it? Hopefully they update the architecture to this model as it’s low battery but I guess the damage is already done.


Sounds like your school is well prepared and the plan thought through!! We’re also doing the old school leave your details method as well - if it ain’t broke!


It’s already fully bi-lingual with German and English!! More languages are enroute according to the RKI

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 24 2020, 09:27 PM

So all they need to do is make English the default language and do a quick check to make sure all the translation is OK. I’ll do that for £20,000.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 24 2020, 10:15 PM

I know and his face when Starmer took him up on his lies last week on child poverty figures was gold!

Posted by: mdh Jun 25 2020, 11:22 AM

The battles between Starmer and Johnson are so tiresome to watch. Always mouthing off instead of contributing something valid to the discussion, they're just as bad as each other.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 25 2020, 11:54 AM

I think you’ll find that one is significantly more bad than the other.

Posted by: Klaus Jun 25 2020, 11:54 AM

They’re really not. One is doing his job by trying to hold the Government to account, which is needed more than ever in times of a national emergency and the other doesn’t like the fact that his dream job should involve a great deal of scrutiny and tries to cover stuff up by spouting incorrect information.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 25 2020, 12:02 PM

Eh Starmer does add detail to the discussion whil Johnson blusters and literally lies, don't know how you can put Starmer in the same category tbh!

Posted by: mdh Jun 25 2020, 02:17 PM

I don’t particularly like either so I shan’t call one worse than the other - I wouldn’t trust either.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 25 2020, 03:53 PM

That’s fair enough, but the difference in their behaviour during PMQs clearly shows that one is worse for sure. That and the way the UK is being brought to its knees since December.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 25 2020, 06:44 PM

Coming from more of a Corbyn fan Starmer has grown on me but hope his campaigning is as good!

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 26 2020, 06:43 AM

Germany’s app is being rolled out onto a bunch of other European App stores! This will make it easier for foreign nationals in Germany to download the app - given the target country list I’m betting that’s the aim.

Apple App Store locations are a bitch to change so most migrants don’t bother. I still use my UK details primarily but also have set up a German account for various local apps I need

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 26 2020, 08:32 PM

I see a primary school head teacher has been suspended for allegedly "bringing the school in to disrepute" after saying in a radio interview that some of her staff have been "sat at home doing nothing during the crisis" Do you know what? I believe her. Yes, many have been doing the home schooling and some going in teaching those who's parents have to work but bet you some are skivving as she says. The truth often hurts. Well done to her for speaking out and shame on those who have suspended her.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/11 ... rce=pushly

"A HEADTEACHER has been suspended after she said some of her staff were "sat at home doing nothing" during the coronavirus lockdown.

Pauline Wood, head of Grange Park primary in Sunderland for 15 years, is being investigated for allegedly bringing the school into disrepute during a radio interview."

During the interview on BBC Radio Newcastle, the interviewer read out text messages from parents worried about the level of support schools in general were offering their kids during the Covid-19 crisis.

One suggested the idea all schools were working hard to help pupils was "simply wrong".

When asked for her opinion, Ms Wood replied: "Yes, some teachers have been in [schools], but many have not been in at any time. Safety is paramount, but don't make out teachers have all been working flat out."


She went on to say some teachers were working hard "coming up with the most imaginative, amazing things" but that others "sit at home doing nothing - I won't defend those people."

Asked if that included teachers at her school, she said: "Yes, I think it's time we talked about the elephant in the room."

Posted by: Rooney Jun 26 2020, 08:39 PM

Of course it is the case, just like in any organisation. Only when it is publically funded there is double the uproar. I'm a firm believe of keep your dirty laundary in your house, so while it may be true I don't know why you need to announce it. If people aren't pulling their weight discipline them internally or performance manage them out of the business.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 26 2020, 08:44 PM

I think she should be praised for daring to tell the truth and not suspended. There's rumoured to be a big campaign amongst the parents to get her re-instated ass she's apparently a popular head.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 26 2020, 09:06 PM

She's been appallingly unprofessional, particularly if she hasn't even spoken to the teachers she is accusing of not doing their job. After all, it is HER job to make sure her staff are performing satisfactorily.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 26 2020, 09:31 PM

There was a vote in the Commons yesterday on a proposal to ensure that all NHS staff were tested for Covid-19 weekly as a measure to help protect patients. Labour, Lib Dems and Plaid voted for it. The SNP appear not to have voted as it only applied to England and Wales. The Tories voted against so it won't be happening.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 26 2020, 09:40 PM

She brought this school up over 15 years from almost failing to being outstanding yet this is her reward. You couldn't make it up. Have emailed the Governors as have a lot of others to express my disgust at their decision.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 26 2020, 10:14 PM

If her teachers are sat at home doing nothing then she is an ineffective head. She apparently knows this and hasn’t done anything but bitch about it. I should have known you’d drag something like this in here.

I’ll tell you what I’ve been doing during lockdown: I have adapted all of my resources so that they can be accessed online. I have marked and given feedback on every single piece of work that I’ve received. I have gone against advice and delivered paper work to the homes of more than 20 children that don’t have access to technology. I have been covering shifts in the hub for key worker children. I have been in constant contact with parents and social workers for vulnerable children. I have had to decide GCSE results because exams were cancelled on a whim and I’ve had to back up all this with evidence that was sparse. I have mapped out schemes of work for the new curriculum for Wales. I have chased up parents of students who are completing no work, not that it made a difference. I have been in work all week this week preparing for students to return to school next week. I also worked through my Easter and May half term holidays.

None of this has been done before. Teachers were given two days to prepare for closure. And why shouldn’t they take a bit of time for themselves during all this, everyone else seems to be entitled to. Perhaps some of these teachers have had days where they’ve sat around doing nothing, I’ve had the odd one myself, but if it helps their mental health, isn’t that a good thing? I would have thought you of all people would have sympathy there.

So yeah, the woman is a shocking leader if she cannot motivate her staff and then proceeds to slag them off publicly. She should be ashamed.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 26 2020, 10:46 PM

Jeremy c**t called for it in the press and then voted against it 🤦🏼‍♂️

Yes, the SNP have a long standing policy of not voting at Westminster on any issues where Holyrood has control over that issue for Scotland, unless Barnnet Consequentials are at play. Fox hunting I believe has been the one exception to that and they didn’t even have the vote in the end!

Posted by: Harve Jun 26 2020, 10:58 PM

The SNP have generally been avoiding Westminster since remote voting was abolished and it all became a farce as Scotland is still in lockdown. They did come down this week to defeat the government on the abuse bill though.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 26 2020, 11:55 PM

Then you are a good teacher and full marks for all that you've done and are doing. That doesn't mean all teachers are as good as you though.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 27 2020, 04:48 AM

Maybe, just maybe Chris, those particular teachers are suffering from depression. Have you considered that, or is it only your own personal mental health that you care about ?

Here's some friendly advice: Stop reading the Sun.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 27 2020, 06:25 AM

You’ve still ignored the fact that she slagged off her staff to the press rather than addressing the issue herself. In other words, she didn’t do her job. Who would want to work for a boss like that?

Posted by: T Boy Jun 27 2020, 08:49 AM

It doesn’t make me a ‘good teacher’ because I’m only doing what the other teachers are doing. Teachers are constantly going the extra mile, working extra hours they’re not paid for and spending all their free time thinking about work, but people like you find it so easy to slag us all off. You’re so quick to defend yourself for sitting around doing nothing for forty years but you can’t even see it from someone else’s point of view. Some of these ‘lazy’ teachers will have families of their own to home school and vulnerable relatives to look after. And some days they might need some time out.

If they’re boasting about not doing much work (which actually, they may not have much to do because it’s very well known that lots of kids are not engaging with work and their parents don’t care either) the she is either not directing them properly or not respected enough by her staff for them to follow instructions. Either way, the problem lies with her. I’ve looked into her, she resigned at Christmas anyway and so was only working her notice. Blaming the staff for the reason she’s leaving. I reckon she’s an absolute nightmare to work for and given she won’t be around to pick up the pieces when schools return, maybe morale is low amongst her staff.

This pandemic has proven that schools and teachers are needed more than ever. No one has taken to online learning and thought ‘oh this would be a great replacement’. Many people out there have realised now that not just anyone can be a teacher. But unfortunately we’re still undervalued because most just see us as free childcare and for the first time in 100 years we’ve been unable to provide that full time. Unfortunately when all this is over I don’t see that changing.

Also lots of school support staff have been working constantly over this period too and they deserve recognition too.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 27 2020, 08:05 PM

From DS.

Bournemouth council leader said the reason the beaches had 250,000 visitors yesterday was because the Prime Minister "threw his hands up six weeks ago" and did not sack Dominic Cummings.

Bournemouth Council declared a major incident on Thursday as thousands of sun-seekers flocked to the coast and called on national intervention to help clear the crowds.

Prime Minister's instruction the previous day for seaside authorities was to "show some guts" and manage the beach-goers independently.

Council leader Vikki Slade, who had publicly condemned the behaviour, told LBC that Boris Johnson "decided to make it a free for all six weeks ago, threw his hands up and said not my problem mate, then he let [Dominic Cummings] do what he liked and the British public have said fine."

Ms Slade referred to the revelation that the PM's senior aide Dominic Cummings travelled from London to County Durham during the lockdown in a move which caused much controversy.
Ms Slade said it was at that point she noticed a change in mentality, "We noticed a significant difference in the behaviour of people after that incident where people have gone social distancing in their head doesn't apply anymore."

She told Eddie that Bournemouth has no problem managing numbers but managing the "absolutely unacceptable" behaviour yesterday, which included people defecating on the beach despite toilets being open and alcohol-fuelled anti-social behaviour.

Eddie countered that Mr Cummings can't be blamed for people defecating in the streets and Ms Slade agreed, putting that behaviour down to "a certain type of person" coming out of lockdown after three months of frustration.

She told Eddie people were dumping their cars in the middle of the road and "didn't care" about paying a penalty fine.

It was reportedly the same in Merseyside with thousands descending on to Formby beach.

Ms Slade was more optimistic about 4 July which will see pubs and restaurants reopen as people would not be able to take alcohol away from the proximity of the venue. This starkly contrasted scenes yesterday as people were bringing vast amounts of alcohol on to the sand.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 28 2020, 08:59 AM

All people are responsible for their own behaviour.

However, Cummings not getting sacked or made to apologise for breaking lockdown rules, coupled with the fact the government made him out to be an absolute hero ‘what any father would do’, will have lead people to believing that there really isn’t a consequence for breaking the rules.

Although I bet most of these people will have done what they did regardless-it’s good old fashioned ‘British common sense’.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 28 2020, 09:11 AM

Interesting article I read this morning:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8466561/amp/DOUGLAS-MURRAY-feels-like-Britain-suffering-mental-breakdown.html

It does feel like the months of lockdown and pressures that come with it is resulting in a large amount of the country being extremely restless and I can only see this getting worse as time goes on.

The young people doing a lot of these things are bored, out of work and out of focused education and the mental impact this is having on them is leading to this anger being taken out in various forms. I do question myself what young people are expected to do at this point when all of the things they live for at that age have been taken away.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 28 2020, 01:37 PM

Yet another throwaway piece from a tory who uses third-grade logic. BLM -> violence -> bad!!1 We need to unite and not focus on the bad things!!1 There was so much good done in the past!!1 *insert a couple of extreme cases of people attacking the police*

'dailymail' and 'interesting' do not belong in the same sentence.

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 02:32 PM

i was about to post something (i hope) was a really thoughtful and detailed piece about covid but we've got the one man culture war still going strong and totally taking over everything. it is s

he is the epitome of disrupter; there is no want to engage and contribute only rile and anger

how is he still a member? what does he bring other than a need to disrupt?

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 02:35 PM

like... why would you spend your time logging onto the internet and deliberately bating people? but how has he come to dominate this space and it be accepted?

its like doing hamster wheels with somebody that poisons the forum and totally shifts the narrative of the thread

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 02:39 PM

let's break it down; why do we go onto the internet? it is to express our views, live, learn, engage.

but this sad twat just comes onto this forum with only one intention: to disrupt.

to piss as many people as he can by saying inflammatory things that will garner a reaction

this forum would be a much better space without him as he sucks all of the life out what could be an engaging forum; he literally puts me off ever posting here

Posted by: Harve Jun 28 2020, 03:00 PM

Vidcapper has been banned no? And PeaceMob only comes on occasionally.

With the other two I don't think being deliberately inflammatory is their raison d'être, even if inflammatory is what they can be.

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 03:07 PM

harve, you believe chris comes onto this forum with good intentions? wants to engage and wants to contribute?

Posted by: Harve Jun 28 2020, 03:11 PM

While it doesn't help that he's so very often wrong and offensive, I don't think he puts much thought into what he's saying whereas Vidcapper knew full well what he was doing.

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 03:17 PM

he fully knows what he is doing!

just because he isn't 'as bad' as vidcapper doesn't make him anymore acceptable; the whole "lesser of two evils" thing...

hes a deliberate disruptor and for years has ruined this forum for people...he puts people off of posting here; i just don't understand the ethos of him containing to be here

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 28 2020, 03:42 PM

Can someone please explain to me what I have done wrong now. I have been on pre-mod now for weeks so every post has to be approved by a moderator before it appears. I can't see, having looked back, what I've said or posted wrong so please tell me Jakee seeing as you've stuck the knife in. Two Sun articles, about the teachers and Bournemouth which I thought were interesting but from now on I won't share any Sun articles at all. Your fault if you miss out on some news stories.

The teacher story was a bit contentious I admit but was in most papers and the TV news too. On the Sun site there were thousands of comments, some saying that she should have managed better as Suedy said and some agreeing that she shouldn't
have been suspended. I said here that I was in the latter group. Why aren't I allowed an OPINION one way or another? Hell even your hated Sun allowed either opinion.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 28 2020, 03:44 PM

Yes I do actually. I posted the news articles to generate some debate, heated maybe or maybe not. You won't see a new article posted from me again as this is all the thanks I get.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 28 2020, 03:50 PM

I don't think they were referring to you. I think the comments were about the DM article posted by Alex P.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 28 2020, 03:53 PM

Oh yeah, just read back and maybe you're right!

Posted by: Jαsє Jun 28 2020, 04:15 PM

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/coronavirus-sage-experts-warn-uk-22265593

A SAGE expert predicts a potential second wave in the UK from October/November

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 04:17 PM

we haven't even left the first wave!


but the nature of conronavurses; how they mutate and build means we are totally furqed

we should be gong for elimination yet we carry on backtofront

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 28 2020, 04:42 PM

How do you suggest we go for elimination though? Would that mean a longer or stricter lockdown and no shops or schools open all year? That would totally ruin the economy for many years and is totally unworkable. Look at how many people broke this lockdown. Look at the jobs forecast to be lost now when more people come off furlough. That's with 10-12 weeks' lockdown. If there's another big wave we'll just have to lock down again but no-one knows. I've seen experts saying there won't be one.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 28 2020, 05:46 PM

so which one is it?

Posted by: Rooney Jun 28 2020, 06:04 PM

Well the answer is nobody knows! Personally I find this whole "BUT THE SECOND WAVE" hyperbole very scaremongering from people. I can't also help put feel people are angling their word to the media so that they can look good in 4 months time and say "I told you so". It's clear we are on a knife-edge, but it's also clearly our economy has shrunk 30% and we are about to hit the worst unemployment levels seen for decades.

I suspect come the autumn months cases will rise again, but I also suspect the world thinks this as well. The problem we have is that if we don't get back to some form of normality our economy will completely crumble. When there is a rise in cases, you would hope the Government would learn from the mistakes of last time to be able to stop the same outcome that happened before in hospitals & care homes. At least with decent testing capacity now anyone who displays any types of symptoms can be isolated.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 28 2020, 06:54 PM

It's true that testing capacity doesn't seem to be a significant issue at the moment, but it is safe to assume that the number of people showing symptoms will increase substantially in the last few months of the year and into next year.

Posted by: jakee Jun 28 2020, 07:35 PM

the fundamentals of this virus have not shifted; as we are seeing in the sunbelt states in th US; you can try and be open but you did it do be done safely and effectively

its currently totally ineffective...we have a winter we need to go for and (fingers crossed) it won't be a lockdownn situation

Posted by: Codeiric Dairy Jun 28 2020, 08:18 PM

Lockdown should have been eased more slowly though I think, yes I understand why the shops are open now (with social distancing) to protect the economy but did they have to change social distancing guidance from 2m to 1m on top of this - its going to raise the R rate too much. If the change in distancing was just for the hospitality sector why didn't they just advise it in hospitality settings instead of everywhere?

Posted by: T Boy Jun 28 2020, 08:33 PM

It’s 1 metre plus. Now if there’s a spike and second wave, Boris can just say it’s everyone else’s fault because he never actually said 1 metre. I guess they think it would be step confusing too far to say it’s one distance in one place and a different one in another.

I understand the need to get the economy going and don’t discourage that at all. But over the last two days Scotland have had no cold deaths (3 days for this actually), Wales have had 7 and England have had over 200. It seems odd that England are reopening much faster than the other two with statistics like this.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 28 2020, 09:06 PM

"1m+" literally means "at least 1m". When everyone decided that 2m is the safe distance they meant 2m+ i.e. 2m is the minimum. I don't think they would have a case if they started to backtrack and blame the population.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 28 2020, 09:09 PM

I think they’d still give it a go.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 28 2020, 09:21 PM

No, the + refers to additional protection, i.e. masks, not facing each other etc.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 28 2020, 09:22 PM

This lot have no sense of shame so they would definitely give it a go.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 28 2020, 10:36 PM

The Ch4 news tonight reports that the Home Office is considering its first regional lockdown for the Leicester area which has seen a surge in over 3000 cases in the last 2 weeks.

Posted by: Alex P Jun 28 2020, 11:50 PM

Well of course they would have an issue on it many people on this forum can’t tolerate an opinion that is different from theirs and get all heated over an Internet forum

Posted by: Alex P Jun 28 2020, 11:52 PM

What are you even talking about ?

Posted by: Alex P Jun 28 2020, 11:56 PM

Ha yes probably was about me. The people on this thread are utterly delusional and live in a world where they can’t have differing opinions and get on their moral high ground about everything it is ridiculous.

And of course there is another second wave article in the last couple of posts, these people will be crying about a second wave that doesn’t come for the next ten years.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 29 2020, 12:02 AM

UK needs a traffic light situation instead of this insane will-they won't-they lockdown where what lockdown means is consistently in flux.

Meta: re the posting thing, I also don't understand why you would go out of your way to join a community only to then blanket criticize all of the people who are already longterm members.

Especially this one which is nominally a music forum!

Posted by: Rooney Jun 29 2020, 12:33 AM

Our lockdown is being eased at pretty much exactly the same rate as Spain and Italy. The 2m rule will be in practice everywhere except bars and resturaunts. I am a little uneasy about the changing of 1m+ in the leisure and hospiality sector, but clearly the government feel the sector will not survive unless changes are made.



Death rate is not a clear indicator, we have no idea where the deaths are coming from, when they occured. Lots of countries have stopped reporting it now. The important trigger is the rate of infection. Seemingly, holistically across England it is OK. Either way we are pretty fuked unless we move in to gear.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 29 2020, 01:05 AM

1m may as well be 0m. Brits are notoriously resistent to following rules.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jun 29 2020, 05:48 AM

Leicester’s elected mayor said otherwise yesterday morning. Once agin, it appears that the government has failed to consult with local leaders. Wales’ first minister says he hasn’t spoken to Johnson since the end of last month.

Posted by: T Boy Jun 29 2020, 06:16 AM

Actually, you’re usually the one that resorts to name calling when people have a different view to you. If you don’t like the ‘people in this thread’ then you know what you can do. That’s my last word on this.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 29 2020, 06:25 AM

I don’t understand where the changing the social distancing for the hospitality sector has come from within government. It remains firmly in place across the rest of the continent.

I was at a bar last week, it’s an open air one to be fair, but every table was spaced 1,5 metres they had a limited menu and it was strictly table service. The place was packed and everything ran smoothly! We had to leave contact details with the staff before the served us for track and trace purposes.

With the extra space it was actually quite pleasant

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 29 2020, 06:37 AM

Funny given the last time there was an argument you thought it was okay to throw childish insults and when it got heated you threw a tantrum and left.

Posted by: Rooney Jun 29 2020, 08:30 AM

Some countries have gone down to 1m too haven't they? Surely the changing tact is the WHO recommendations. I'd have gathered 2m for a period of 2 weeks and then moved to 1m, but they must have crunched their numbers and got feedback from the lobbying groups and decided they need to implement it. The problem in lots of Englosh cities is there is not the space to do open air, especially in the medieval cities/towns.

Hoping that the Government enforces the track and trace options for vars and restaurants, that's one thing we definitely do need.

Posted by: *Tim Jun 29 2020, 09:05 AM

I havent heard of any country doing so on the continsnt but that might just be me.
Belgium, Netherlands and Germany are all 1.5m for sure and I think France, Spain as well

Posted by: Rooney Jun 29 2020, 09:48 AM

BBC said France and Denmark are all 1m. Don't know whether that is country wide or just for hospitality/leisure.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 29 2020, 09:53 AM

I think a couple of countries started out at 1m. I don’t recall anyone dropping their distance down either but I could have missed it.

As Tim says a lot of Northern Europe is 1,5m and hospitality has been able to reopen here. Not sure what it’s like where you are Tim, but I noticed a lot of smaller spots or places that have high traffic like Ikea and Berlin Hauptbahnhof have kept seating areas largely closed. Was raging when I couldn’t get meatballs for tea when I hit up ikea last week!

Posted by: n'tAlice Jun 29 2020, 10:02 AM

no meatballs in ikea start rioting silas x

Posted by: *Tim Jun 29 2020, 11:05 AM

Ikea is a small place?! I mean their seating area is closed here too but I think that has more to do with them not being able to monitor the social distancing.

I've been to bars for the first time in forever and the measures were all taken care off. A lot of then got permission to expand their areas so they can seat more people. It was really nice to be out again

Posted by: Quarantilas Jun 29 2020, 11:35 AM

Sorry, meant ikea is a high traffic place. They have a lot of guests usually. The bistro thing at the end was open but no meatballs 😭

@Pav - lowkey was tempted.

Posted by: Harve Jun 29 2020, 12:12 PM

France is 1m now I think. At least that's how it is in school (but everyone wears masks).

On the other hand, I've been to markets and a beach bar/club where there isn't much distancing and little mask wearing. I can only hope that them being outside is the reason why we haven't seen a second wave yet, as indoor places tend to be much stricter. Like the difference hygiene protocol between Burger King and a café terrasse, or a supermarket and a market, is insane.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jun 29 2020, 08:18 PM

So Leicester has to stay in lockdown another two weeks, meaning that pubs, cafes and hairdressers can't now open until 18th. Most are furious according to The Sun

"Businesses affected expressed their anger about the decision to extend the lockdown.

Hairdresser Sandra May, 52, owner of DJ’s Groom Room & Sandra May’s Hair Studio, said: “I am absolutely furious and devastated.

“I’ve had so many calls from customers wanting to know what’s happening. We’re fully booked and they’ve just dropped us right in it.

“We’d taken the precautions with PPE and planned training for the staff, we were even doing our own track and tracing, we’ve sterilised everything - it’s cost a fortune.

“I’ve been following the rules but I’m opening on July 4 regardless. I’ve told all my clients.

“If they want to arrest all the hairdressers in Leicester they’ll have some prisoners with great hair.”

Posted by: Rooney Jun 29 2020, 08:38 PM

Well she is an idiot if it she does it. Part of me thinks the Leicester front is the Government making an example for the rest of England. But I also do think it is the right thing to do as well.

I might have read too much crap, but is it true that lots of the cases seem to be imported?

Posted by: Harve Jun 29 2020, 08:47 PM

From where? Loughborough? England has one of the worst, if not the worst, outbreaks per capita in the world, and the amount of travel isn't enough to explain recent cases, even if every single traveller carried the virus.

Posted by: Hadji Jun 29 2020, 08:54 PM

When they cut the distancing down to 1m on Saturday, what some people aren’t understanding about it is that it’s only for the businesses who cannot operate 2m apart. It will still be 2m for places like outdoors, cinemas, supermarkets and shopping centres where they can keep/operate 2m apart

Posted by: Rooney Jun 29 2020, 08:59 PM

As in a lot of the cases in Leicester are from people returning from Pakistan. It was in a couple of the broadsheets at the weekend. I don't know true it is or whether it is hyperbole but quite a few non-racist people seem to have picked up on it.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jun 29 2020, 09:21 PM

Iirc this was a false report. There were 30 cases; papers were claiming 50% of ALL infections.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 29 2020, 10:11 PM

In better news the UK 7-day moving average of new positive cases has fallen below 1,000 for the first time since the second day of the lockdown (25th March) with 974 cases, and there have been zero Covid-19 related deaths in Scotland for the past 4 days.

Posted by: Andrew. Jun 29 2020, 10:13 PM

It’s clear that the slower pace in Scotland is resulting in no deaths. Statistically you’d expect at least a small number of deaths. Well done Nic you’ve impressed me

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn Jun 29 2020, 10:52 PM

That really goes to show what can be achieved with competent leadership.

Posted by: jakee Jun 29 2020, 11:34 PM

from the weather vein you will become a cock

Posted by: Izzy Jun 30 2020, 04:27 AM

The Leicester lockdown is one of a few good moves made by English governance. The possibility of local lockdowns keep everyone alert in the way bullshit slogans do not, it allows for quick changes, and it sets a precedence for controlling the virus. If the country starts to move into that phase, the rest of it can get back to normal quicker.

Posted by: Steve201 Jun 30 2020, 08:27 PM

So Leicester is back in lockdown Alex

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jun 30 2020, 10:09 PM

Some good analysis from John Burn-Murdoch from the FT on the discrepencies between England/Wales Covid-19 positive test data.

tl;dr - Basically England isn't publishing Pillar 2 (commercial lab testing) results broken down by local authority which is accouting for 90% of new cases in Leicester. This data is not being routinely published in the public domain. In Wales it is.

Posted by: blacksquare Jul 1 2020, 10:54 AM

'The cost is around $3,200 per treatment of six doses, according to the US government statement.'

Jesus.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 1 2020, 10:58 AM

Well we already knew the US under trump don't give a damn about their so called allies unless they can take advantage of them

Posted by: Klaus Jul 1 2020, 11:05 AM

This is also crazy but sadly not surprising: “The drug, which was invented for Ebola but failed to work, is under patent to Gilead, which means no other company in wealthy countries can make it.”

There’s never a clear example than stuff like this when profit is literally put before people’s lives.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 1 2020, 04:19 PM

It doesn't bode well if a vaccine becomes available and the patent is not shared/manufactured accordingly. This is the problem with America under Trump seemingly want to enter a period of isolationism again.. there will be times it comes back to bite you on the arse.

Another day of companies announcing plans to cut jobs today, it's going to be a torrid few months for retail and hospitality especially.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 1 2020, 05:06 PM

By the time we get a vaccine, I imagine Trump will be out. Fingers crossed anyway.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 1 2020, 06:01 PM

How's that herd strategy going then ... ?

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 2 2020, 05:25 PM

Just seeing 52,000 new cases in America yday, anyone know what the English figure is?

Posted by: Oliver Jul 2 2020, 05:39 PM

829 yesterday for the UK according to Worldometers.

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 2 2020, 06:13 PM

Boris Johnson's Dad has travelled to Greece, despite advice to avoid travelling. Passengers can't fly from the UK to Greece currently either. Instead he circumvented this by flying to Greece from Bulgaria. Yet another dent in the PM/Government's message.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53266552

Posted by: T Boy Jul 2 2020, 06:45 PM

I can’t even be arsed to get outraged by stuff like that now, the energy has gone. I guess this is how they get away with it all.

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 2 2020, 09:26 PM

I wouldn't be outraged by that tbf I would say anyone really wanting to get to a country not in the recommended bracket will do this which shows the pointlessness of those type of rules.

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 2 2020, 09:27 PM

Thanks!

For one day? And those 829 will have bound to have spread it....you'd think figures would increase as there's a lot more contacts now with more things opening up.

Posted by: Harve Jul 2 2020, 10:19 PM

I'm actually quite pro-ending lockdown measures sooner in Britain and have been for a while, not least because I'll be there in 2.5 weeks and I don't wanna do a pointless quatorzaine on arrival but also:



Are you guys okay.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 2 2020, 10:35 PM

You’ve timed your trip better than I timed mine! I’ll be on day 14 before these air bridges even materialise


Germany’s low rate doesn’t surprise me if the rest of the country is like Berlin. In store compliance is excellence but the ubahn is dodgy enough for a PR campaign and out and about the numbers are negligible

My folks are wearing masks but I’d say they’re the exception rather than the rule

Posted by: n'tAlice Jul 2 2020, 11:08 PM

Oh, I'm seeing about 80% less people in masks now than during the lockdown. It's like everyone suddenly thinks it's all okay.

Posted by: Harve Jul 2 2020, 11:22 PM

Yeah to be fair that percentage will be outdated and it was always much lower on the street. But it's still compulsory in many indoor places and in the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty minimal measure to take that (hopefully) allows us to have a life fairly close to normal.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 3 2020, 09:19 AM

Air bridges in place for England from 10th July.

Other countries in the union TBC



Absolutely useless. Week later than briefed. Does heehaw good for me as if Scotland does it the same day I shave 24hrs off my quarantine 😑

Posted by: *Tim Jul 3 2020, 11:15 AM

According to sources The Netherlands, Portugal and Sweden are not on the list of 50+ countries that won't need quarantine when arriving in England

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 3 2020, 01:25 PM

Scottish Gov said the list changed as of this morning. It’s traffic light colour coded and because Scotland has already reduced the incidence to a quite low rate, they’re unlikely to let Orange countries in without quarantine and are likely to lift for green countries. All still to be confirmed as they only got the list today and have to review it in the light of a lower infection rate in Scotland than in England.


Scottish and Welsh govs launched a simultaneous attack on the UK Gov over this calling the decision making shambolic and taking aim over the UK gov trying to throw the devolved administrations under the bus for not just blindly agreeing to what Dom wanted

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 3 2020, 02:10 PM

With regard to masks - either everyone wears them or it's pointless.

You may stop YOURself potentially spreading it but if just 1 person is infected and not wearing a mask, well it's game over.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 3 2020, 02:44 PM

Traffic lights are so sensible! UK (England) should have adopted those from the start in order to make it clear to people.

The people going to the pubs from tomorrow absolutely baffle me to be honest. At least hold off a week to see if people start getting ill from going. The alkies will be the first people through the doors and will be uncontrollable in terms of keeping distance.

Posted by: Dobbo Jul 3 2020, 02:56 PM

Some ppl live for the pub, I can sympathise with them wanting to go asap, particularly if we don't know when the next lockdown will happen. Get in there whilst you can! As long as they're not overtly flouting the guidelines...

On the flipside, ppl have managed without the pub for over 3 months so surely an extra couple more weeks won't hurt.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 3 2020, 03:00 PM

I've started listening to the Grounded with Louis Theroux podcasts and him and Chris Dowd talked about people coming out of lockdown with almost a PTSD effect and feeling like you've lost a limb without losing one. I honestly think they hit the nail on the head for a lot of people, you're seeing people take rash decisions and choices because they feel like they have lost out and are almost making up for lost time.

I'm OK with going to a pub or resturaunt, but I'll give it a swerve this weekend. Staff need a soft opening to get used to the changes.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 3 2020, 03:19 PM

Sturgeon and Drakeford not holding back, and who can blame them?

I’m not opposed to pubs reopening safely but this weekend will likely be shambolic in English pubs. It’s just so foolish to reopen on a Saturday. Wales are reopening pubs on a Monday which feels a bit more sensible because people won’t go mad on the first night if they have to work the next day.

Wales is lifting travel restrictions on Monday which actually seems well timed as people in England will be too distracted by pubs to venture over the border to beauty spots for ‘exercise’.

Posted by: Klaus Jul 3 2020, 03:34 PM

Yeh, I’m fine with pubs reopening but opening up on a Saturday is idiotic. Hopefully, our expectations of it being similar to New Year’s Eve is wrong but I very much have my doubts! I know a lot of places are choosing to open at a later date however.

Posted by: Dobbo Jul 3 2020, 03:37 PM

I don't think it matters personally. Open them on Monday, the desperate crowd would still go head over heels regardless of it being a work night. I don't think they'll be that more rammed than they would be normally. Those who are exercising caution will use their own judgment and just not go.

Posted by: Izzy Jul 3 2020, 03:49 PM

I am of the opinion that announcing a big reopening at all is foolish, puts too much capacity on one day. I haven't seen anywhere else in the world do anything like it (with the exception of certain American states, Florida and Texas have had to reverse their own reopenings!), and the government will clearly just put the blame back on the public if there's a spike.

I mean:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53205720

I hope people remain sensible but from the arrangements I've heard of from looking around the net, seems like too many are preparing for a bumper night.

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 3 2020, 03:51 PM

I think the problem with pubs opening tomorrow is due to a few reasons.

#1. Pubs are opening at 6am.
#2. Tomorrow being dubbed as "Super Saturday", as if suddenly there are no more worries about Covid-19 and that everyone should go down the pub for a nice drink. Irresponsible.
#3. The British Public - you bet there will be many boozing it up tomorrow and being irresponsible. I would not be surprised to see A&E admissions increase a lot over this weekend.
#4. There's quite a lot of football on, which may bring out people in droves.

Not looking forward to what's going to happen tomorrow. I just hope I'm wrong and people are sensible about it. But we'll likely see pictures/videos of pubs being packed.

Posted by: Dobbo Jul 3 2020, 03:52 PM

Yeah I agree with that side, good old media hyping it up as a HUGE CELEBRATORY DAY

Plus as I mentioned there'll be a lot of folk maybe thinking another (possibly local) lockdown isn't too far away so will go hell for leather whilst the pubs are open to "get their fix"

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jul 3 2020, 04:01 PM

While I agree it would be busy whenever they opened, a Monday night is still nowhere near as busy as Saturday night and certainly not in the day when most are at work, whereas on Saturday, when everyone's off it could easily be busy all day especially with football on. A weekday opening when they're less busy could've at least allowed the businesses to adjust before the busiest period so they were ready for it. It's just so transparently prioritising the day that will give them the most moneyu.

The media hype I agree isn't helping either, I'm pretty certain the start will be a complete travesty and that's why I'm not going despite being asked. We can only hope the doubtless awful pictures that will circulate will lead to better regulations forming over the weeks.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 3 2020, 04:01 PM

Grant Shapps' criticism of the Scottish and Welsh administrations yesterday could be summarised as him having a go at them for not doing what they were told.

Posted by: Klaus Jul 3 2020, 04:25 PM

I agree with the rest of the points but this point is only if the pubs are licensed to which I doubt many outside of airports are

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 3 2020, 04:30 PM

Saw someone on twitter point out it might have been to prevent pubs with late licenses from opening at midnight for a couple of hours


Which would be unusually smart for the Gov

Edit: From PM Spokesman, so gov actually was unusually smart

Posted by: T Boy Jul 3 2020, 04:46 PM

Money is one reason English pubs are reopening on a Saturday. Another is so that they can have the big celebration and so that morons will hail Boris as their hero for giving the ‘people’ what they want.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 3 2020, 04:47 PM

Pubs are only opening at 6am, as Silas states which is because the Government are worried people will just open at 12.01am. I think the pubs that open are going to open at 6am will be very small, surely it's not cost effective at all..

I totally agree with the way some of the media are dubbing it "Super Saturday" - load of rubbish. I'm pretty sure pubs and bars aren't allowed to show sport nor are they allowed to play music. I could be wrong but I've seen it mentioned by a few people.

Isn't the more police than NYE comment made for Leicester? Again, I could be wrong but I read it as in they were on the streets in Leicester ahead of pubs either illegally re--opening or people trying to go to Nottingham etc.

Most of the big chain bars certainly in City Centres are having fixed amount of time people can be in bars, maximum amount of drinks, only a set number of drinks at any one time. I think the trouble is going to come from people expecting to walk in to a bar and expect to be served a pint in 10 seconds rather than 10 minutes or from your local pubs where there is less likely to follow the rules..

Posted by: Euphorique Jul 3 2020, 08:16 PM

People are actually courageous enough to go to pubs or even worse, night clubs?

Posted by: Dobbo Jul 3 2020, 08:20 PM

Night clubs I doubt will be opening for a good while still yet. Absolutely impossible to socially distance in those. But to pubs and restaurants, personally yes.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 3 2020, 08:47 PM

What annoys me is that the wearing of them on public transport isn't enforced properly. Some bus drivers aren't bothered but some won't let you on without one. Either it's the law or it's not. I had one on last Sat. but hardly anyone else on the bus did.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 3 2020, 09:26 PM

I thought you’d obtained a sick note meaning you get out of wearing one anyway, so why are you so bothered about enforcement?

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 3 2020, 09:39 PM

Well why should some wear them and not others? It's either the law or it isn't and if it is then it should be enforced. I wore on Sat as didn't receive my letter until Monday.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 08:45 AM

But if you can get out of it, why should others be enforced to wear one?

I generally believe anyone who goes on public transport without a mask is pretty selfish at this point whether it’s the law or not.

Posted by: Klaus Jul 4 2020, 01:07 PM

You’re a fan of complaining for stuff to happen that you don’t have to do yourself, aren’t you?

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 01:11 PM

Frankly, clubs not opening but pubs opening with the implicit understanding that rules will go out the window hours in feels like just another case of the gov shitting on young people.

Literally every release of restrictions so far has favoured what older people like or want to do while the rest of us just have to wait in line while still actually doing the work to keep society ticking over.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 4 2020, 01:15 PM

Seeing as you still post here, you seem to have survived wearing a mask. Why do you still need a letter and impose health risks on others?

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 01:39 PM

Posted by: n'tAlice Jul 4 2020, 03:45 PM

Rules don't apply to Karens.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 4 2020, 03:50 PM

I have panic attacks when very stressed and am scared I may have one whilst wearing one. Can hardly breathe and all my glasses are steamed up. Not a nice experience.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 4 2020, 03:51 PM

It would be impossible to have any kind of social distancing in a nightclub. Pubs are different and it is possible.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 04:06 PM

I’m struggling to get my head around this. In England you can now:

Visit family members and friends, even create a bubble
Go to non essential shops
Go to the pub
Get a haircut
Go to the cinema
Hold a house viewing
Have workmen/plumbers/electricians round
Visit garden centres
Eat out/get take aways
Take part in non contact sport
Exercise whenever you want and travel as far as you want to do so
And people will be able to travel to and from around 60 countries

Exactly how are all of those activities for older people? I guess I don’t know how you’re defining old and and young but these are things people 18+ all tend to do? Clubs and gyms are still closed (though plenty of older people do go to the gym) so I can see that argument but theatres are still closed which I imagine is a hotspot for older people. I guess I just don’t really separate activity with age. My parents are in their early 60s and only leave the house for walks so I don’t think they see the lifting of restrictions as favourable towards them (we’re in Wales anyway so the above doesn’t count for us.)

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 04:07 PM

And how do you know that all the people you see not wearing one don’t all feel the same as you? You can’t demand that people wear them because it’s the law and then make yourself an exception. It ain’t all about you.

Posted by: Slick Jul 4 2020, 04:13 PM

I just had a haircut I wore a mask, he wore a visor and he was taking tools out of bleach before using them. Altogether a bizarre experience.

Posted by: n'tAlice Jul 4 2020, 04:16 PM

There's a spray that makes your glasses avoid being steamed up if that's one of the excuses.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 4 2020, 04:17 PM

Saw how they were queuing at midnight at some salons. They've got bookings a month in advance at some.

I see Wetherspoons has put 10p on every drink and 20p on every meal/food item to try and make up some profits they've lost. They sent new menus out to them all over the past few days. Can't blame them really. I bet many pubs have done so.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 4 2020, 04:21 PM

All your glasses? How many pairs do you wear at the same time?

Posted by: Slick Jul 4 2020, 04:21 PM

I booked an appointment last week - I wouldn't have queued, but understand some people who would want to.

On the point of pubs putting their prices up, my barber has also put his prices up. I can't blame him either - it's a chance to recoup and I don't think people will mind paying a few pence more.

Posted by: Klaus Jul 4 2020, 04:25 PM

Yeh, I was thinking of even offering to pay more for my hair cut just to help them out. I believe they’re charging a tiny bit extra anyway to cover the cost of the PPE.

Posted by: Slick Jul 4 2020, 04:29 PM

I think that's very nice and thoughtful of you if you can afford to do so. My barber was talking about investing in a machine which will bleach his equipment for him - bet that won't be cheap!

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 04:38 PM

I don’t care how much Wetherspoons raises or lowers their prices. You’d have to have a heart of stone to go back there.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 4 2020, 04:43 PM

Yes, my local barber is doing the same. They are displaying a notice to explain why they have increased their prices.

Posted by: Oliver Jul 4 2020, 06:00 PM

Speak for yourself! I’d much rather be in a pub than a nightclub!

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 4 2020, 07:29 PM

Just enjoying a nice very cold pint can of cider, £1.20 from the off-licence. You can shove your pub prices of nearly £4 a pint around here for cider. No need to give my names, no women coming on to me or drunks and can watch TV too.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 07:35 PM

In order the relaxations were:

Stay in your house and enjoy the weather in your garden (disproportionately benefiting the retired and homeowners)
Go for drives (benefiting only drivers)
Garden centres can open (once again benefiting homeowners and people who like gardening)
And only then after months and months sport etc.

This disease does not affect everyone equally. It affects PRIMARILY older people. The rest of us have been forced to sacrifice everything we enjoy doing in order to protect older people, while still working during. Sometimes while working DIRECTLY to benefit older people.

I would like at the very least some gratitude and recognition, because you can be damn sure if it was an illness that only affected 30s and under the gov would not be pulling out all the stops like this and dangling carrots to try and keep the at risk portion of the population obeying the rules.

Fact is, if you came into this lockdown already retired and owning your home, the only thing that changed is that you were no longer - for your own safety - able to see in person friends and family or go shopping or to the pub. Really very little change compared to the situation of someone who lived in a shared house in city centre with no garden and was expected to keep working full-time during. In terms of the strain on mental health there is a HUGE gulf between the two sets of experiences, and yet the rhetoric from the government and even from certain ordinary folk is that ach well, we all made the same sacrifice and it was dangerous for us all. When that wasn't at all the case.

And its falsehoods like that that then cause certain people to go 'well, fvck it, I've done my bit long enough and got nothing for it, why not now break ALL the rules?'

Posted by: Andrew. Jul 4 2020, 07:39 PM

I’m sorry but you can’t make this blanket statement that it’s been all fine and dandy for older people compared to the young. In one way they’ve had it worse than us, because many have had to shield completely for months (while during the strictest period we could still go out once a day) AND they’re more likely to have lost peers and direct loved ones. This is coming off lowkey ageist if I’m honest.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 4 2020, 08:01 PM

Totally agree. Also the age group that uses Maccy D's and other takeaways and have deliveries via apps the most too is the under 40's I once read so hardly the older generations.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 4 2020, 08:09 PM

Yeah I also agree, I don't think any of the loosening of the rules have benefited old people directly? The worst people affected are those the ones who have to shield.

Lots of people own their own homes who are working and retired. And lots of people renting homes also have gardens too. Everyone has had to make sacrafices, some more than others but for the most part we have all had to do our bit - and the cost of it we will all be fuding through the increased prices for recreational goods and services. Most of which I'm sure we are happy to pay in the short term, but when we have a huge recession it's going to affect the lower-middle incomes again. The major way it will affect young people is through lack of jobs and more experienced candidates applying for the same roles.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 08:20 PM

I am making an observation about policy and demographics in the country. That is all.

I am not saying that I PERSONALLY feel these things.

Although I will say I don't understand the lack of outrage and frustration from so many. Like. I guess in a sense it's admirable to just keep keeping on while the gov rides roughshod over the population. The work does need done, but like... I really struggle with the fact that the ask has been from our employers to just keep working exactly as much as we used to, except minus any of the things that otherwise made our lives worth living. It's like they've been explicit about the fact that they want us to be profit-turning robots.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 4 2020, 08:36 PM

Yeah but I also don’t really understand your frustration as the Government have pretty much done exactly the same thing (with the odd differences) as the rest of the world? Not sure what you’re getting out here if I am honest as none of the issues you talk about are related to coronavirus.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 08:40 PM

It was off on a tangent following a previous comment. I've said my piece, if you wish we can close the book on it now.

The logical trail was:
Pubs open but clubs closed = gov disenfranchising young folk
>> Othr examples of having done so during the crisis
>> The fact that this was justified as a common sacrifice that everyone was making the same when actually it led to people in different economic circumstances actually experiencing two very different shades of lockdown.

This was then challenged as me personally being ageist, that old chestnut.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 08:40 PM

It is ridiculous to suggest the order of loosening restrictions was decided just to benefit older people though. I’ve disagreed with how soon restrictions have lifted and the specific day for opening pubs but generally they’ve been lifted in and order that is safe give or take a few things.

The garden thing disadvantaged some, yes, but you’ve always been allowed out for exercise no matter what your age. A lot of old people don’t have gardens either.
Driving is an odd thing to complain about. Drivers are any age from 17 up and many older people don’t drive, particularly very old people who use public transport.
Garden centres have a lot of open air space and it was the time of year people do gardening.
Sport was always going to come later because a lot of it is contact and some of it indoors.

I don’t think young people deserve any special gratitude they’re not getting already. Lots of elderly people in my community are very grateful when younger people shop for them. My parents have been so grateful for me dropping off prescriptions and shopping. My grandparents, who I can only go and see from Monday and haven’t seen their family since February and are in their mid 80s can’t speak more highly of the help they’ve had from younger people on their street.

Fact is this had been no picnic for anyone. Everyone has done their bit. If you think it’s been fine for older people just because their lives are like this anyway, we’ll then perhaps you should feel a bit of sympathy for them now knowing how their lives normally are. And perhaps it’s you who should be expressing gratitude that your ‘normal’ life is more exciting.

I’m afraid I do sort of agree with Andrew that it’s all coming off a bit ageist.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 08:46 PM

I'm not going to get drawn into this discussion because it feels like this is a trap to be sprung in order to make me into the bad guy.

If you guys don't want to acknowledge the gaps in our society, then that's fine. I can't force it.

I will say that I don't think it's ridiculous that the gov chose things to benefit older people when that is their day to day MO. Meaning, the Tory government, not the government in general as an insitution, before anyone takes that the wrong way.

As for not deserving any special gratitude...you realise that you're advocating for the gov to be able to make any demand of workers at any time while offering no kind of extra carrot whatsoever? In fact some workers have been expected to actually add to their workloads for LESS money. Why are people happy to accept that? In my eyes, that's the sign of a sick society with social contract in tatters.

Posted by: Calum Jul 4 2020, 08:49 PM

I really don't see how you can read so much into pubs being opened before nightclubs? There's a very clear difference between the two, to me at least. Yes, the demographics between the two may differ, but a pub is certainly a lot more manageable than a nightclub.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 08:51 PM

It was meant to be a flippant comment.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 08:53 PM

It’s not a trap, some of us are just struggling to see your point of view. At present it comes across like you have a chip on your shoulder about older generations. Saying you’re not going to discuss it further isn’t going to help us see your point of view. You know how critical 99% of us have been about the government and their handling of everything on here. I’m not sure if you’re suggesting clubs should have been open before people could drive/go to garden centres or anything because that just seems absurd to me.

Clubbing and going to the gym are not the only things young people live for. There are many things people could do during lockdown within their own homes to keep them occupied. Also if you’re complaining that young people had to work alongside this, then perhaps you could appreciate the fact that you still have a job throughout all this. I know I do. My colleague’s husband was furloughed and has now been let go. He’s 55 and will probably struggle to get another job following this.

I welcome you trying to explain this in any way you can, but refusing to speak of it won’t alter what I’m already left thinking, I’m afraid.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 4 2020, 09:00 PM

I can see why someone might think younger people have sacrificed a lot for the greater good, but it's hard to see how it could have been otherwise. The order in which things have reopened has been broadly logical although the government should have spent more time over the last three months thinking about the best way to get schools up and running again.

I think a lot of older people appreciate what individual younger people have done to help them. Whether that changes their perception of younger people in general remains to be seen.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 4 2020, 09:00 PM

I really don’t know what you’re getting at, I don’t think any of us in this thread are a fan of this Conservative government but most governments would have followed exactly the same pattern? Left and right wing governments across Europe have done exactly the same thing too.

Most frontline workers have had extra payments given to them during the first 12 weeks as a recognition for what they were doing in the private sector at least, which is perfectly fine and is only right. In any job you work people will try and squeeze costs with fantastic business cliches such as “fast and agile workplace”, “we need to do more with less” etc. etc.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 09:09 PM

I don't have an issue with older generations, to be clear.

I have an issue with the government falsely making out for months and months that everyone is experiencing the same lockdown when that is not the case. That when you are retired and have an assured income, and a house and a garden, your experience of a lockdown is much less trying than for the same person living in insecure accommodation and still expected to work full-time for the same or less pay.

Older folk can't help that the experience is different any more than younger folk can.

However, the fact is that in order to safeguard older folk, younger and poorer people and those in insecure work or living situation have made the biggest sacrifice. At no point has the government acknowledged this. At no point was an incentive offered to make that sacrifice a little easier on those workers, apart from the patronising 'clap for carers'.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 09:12 PM

Thank you! That was the point I was getting at.

There is a generational divide, politically in this country, in terms of who is voted for and who policies primarily serve. (a separate, but related issue to covid)

The fact that younger folk were now having to sacrifice to help elders could have been a great opportunity to mend that gap to an extent IF it was drawn attention to by the government or by the media. If the narrative had been one of 'millennials have been so responsible when push comes to shove' etc.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 4 2020, 09:19 PM

I guess where I’m not getting it is that I don’t feel like I need an incentive to do the right thing. Even before lockdown was imposed, I stopped visiting my parents as my mum is vulnerable. It was a big sacrifice to make but I guess my incentive to make it and carry on working in a school with members of other people’s families was knowing that I was giving my mum the best chance of being able to see me more times in the future.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 4 2020, 09:49 PM

Yes, I agree. I just think an incentive is in favour of worker's rights. In my view, NOT having any kind of incentive for an entire sea change of responsibilities and expectations is dangerous precedent to set - particularly for the UK with the context of a looming Brexit.

As a test run of what the public will accept, it doesn't smell great for the power dynamic between employees, employers and the gov who should be arbiting.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 5 2020, 07:32 AM

The scenes last night up and down the country were ridiculous but no different to any other Saturday night I suppose. Drunks inebriated in gutters, people hardly able to stand up, buying pints and pouring them all over themselves. Some arrests and some pubs closed on police advice. Busy again today apparently and getting busier.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 5 2020, 08:12 AM

I’d actually say I’ve existed pretty positively during lockdown. I’ve not been crying my eyes out over not being able to drink at the pub or behave irresponsibly. I initially used the time away from my workplace (whilst still working) to better my mental health. I’ve occupied myself with working, reading, catching up with TV and music. I’ve been in constant touch with family, friends and colleagues first through FaceTime and then socially distanced meetings in gardens. The only time I’ve gotten stressed and miserable is seeing people selfishly disregarding social distancing rules and not really caring about people dying. I’d say the pessimistic people in this thread are the ones who go out of their way to say they’ve got it worse than anyone else. That hasn’t been me.

I’m glad you had a great time, Alex P, but I hoped you stayed safe and stuck to the rules. It’s a little weird that you find the need to immediately come on here and attack me in a personal way yet again as soon as you’ve had a night out but you do you.

As for last night, I’m mainly seeing Soho as a place where the rules weren’t followed. I hope up and down England it was a different case and I’m sure people probably were sensible in a lot of places. Like Oliver said, hopefully being outside in Soho might help but I’d be devastated for my sister if London went back into lockdown.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 5 2020, 04:07 PM

On my estate, people clapped for the NHS every single Thursday for 10 weeks. Nothing right now.


Perhaps the mood of the nation has changed. I wonder why?

Posted by: mdh Jul 5 2020, 09:55 PM

I spent nearly the whole day/night in pubs yesterday in a town full of drinkers/the kind of people you'd expect to be getting up to this kind of thing, and honestly, I can say with quite a lot of confidence that the vast majority have been observant of the rules and acting safely. Quite sure that any spike in cases we do see will only be small.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 6 2020, 01:20 PM

No deaths recorded today in Wales for the first time since early March. I know it’s a Monday, but it’s still good to hear.

Posted by: Hadji Jul 6 2020, 09:45 PM

They tell us how many cases there have been in total in the UK but they won’t tell us how many cases there are at the moment (active cases)

Posted by: Rooney Jul 7 2020, 09:50 AM

Melbourne back in to lockdown..

I think as a lot of us already knew, the coronavirus is going to highlight workplaces/communities living well below government regulations and people below the poverty line. Even more concerning is a lot of the outbreaks appear to be connected to migrant workers too which is only going to fuel racial tensions.

Posted by: Slick Jul 7 2020, 09:52 AM

I am pleasantly surprised that pubs opening up again hasn't been the massive shitshow I expected. Are people actually being responsible? If so I am SHOOK.

Posted by: blacksquare Jul 7 2020, 10:27 AM

Well, this is kicking off today.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 7 2020, 10:35 AM

I think the danger is not in the short term, it is in a few weeks time where people get a bit bored of the novelty and just want normality back. There are similar patterns of behavior across the rest of Western Europe. But on a positive note, it does look as if pubs, bars and restaurants have really rose to the challenge and are making the environments as safe as can possibly be.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 7 2020, 10:39 AM

It's awful. I am OK with governments making mistakes (of which is clear they made many) - and which rightly they would get a roasting. But to blame the social sector is just plain wrong. Rightly he is getting pulled up on the remarks and I am sure Labour will pull him up too- but the problem is we have a temporary budget announcement tomorrow (and I'm sure some parts will get leaked tonight) to bury the news. More interestingly it will be good to see what members of his own Party think..

Posted by: blacksquare Jul 7 2020, 11:28 AM

What?

Posted by: *Tim Jul 7 2020, 12:15 PM

That sounds like a very.... UK thing to do

Posted by: Iz~ Jul 7 2020, 01:37 PM

How in a civilized society are necessary tests for deadly viruses not considered part of the public good but rather a taxable item?

Posted by: n'tAlice Jul 7 2020, 03:14 PM

Tampon tax anyone?

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 7 2020, 03:25 PM

This smacks of manipulation to me. Get HMRC to declare the tests a taxable benefit so that the Chancellor can make himself look good by declaring that it isn't.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 7 2020, 03:39 PM

The Brazilian president Bolsonaro has tested positive for corona.

When you do clownery

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jul 7 2020, 03:46 PM

Oh Karma, what a wonderful thing you are.

Posted by: blacksquare Jul 7 2020, 03:47 PM

I suspect the same as well — it's already happened multiple times this year.

Posted by: Envoirment Jul 7 2020, 03:53 PM

I very much hope not. I'm currently getting tested weekly where I work and would not want to see money out of my salary for doing so. Ridiculous.

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn Jul 7 2020, 04:00 PM

Jair Bolsonaro has tested positive.

I hope it finishes him off. 🤞

Posted by: n'tAlice Jul 7 2020, 04:03 PM

We've already been through this over here with our own PM. Unfortunately it didn't work :'(

Posted by: T Boy Jul 7 2020, 04:07 PM

It didn’t kill Boris but remember he’s a ‘fighter’ and had access to the ‘very best care’.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 7 2020, 04:15 PM

Well at least we can pray he develops some bad symptoms so he won't be able to claim this virus as a mild cough anymore. Of he gets away with mild symptoms, poor brazilians

Posted by: Rooney Jul 7 2020, 04:17 PM

I wouldn't want to wish misery upon him, but this is a clear case of karma biting him properly on the arse. Just the clear flouting of all the rules that he was above the virus.. I mean not even Trump is that stupid anymore. I can only hope it helps to stem to tide in Brazil, but I fear it won't.

Posted by: Iz~ Jul 7 2020, 04:19 PM

'i'm not sick! would a sick person look like this?'

I had a fiery loathing of Bolsonaro even before this but his hubris and poor example is no doubt a reason that Brazil has suffered so badly. In the words of Brazilian Twitter, #forcacorona.

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 7 2020, 05:57 PM

Reports on ITV News that people gave false addresses and phone numbers in pubs at the weekend. Some pubs didn't ask to see the phone but just gave out a form. Now they want to contact people after several out breaks, the numbers given don't exist. Suppose people object to giving their real details.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 7 2020, 06:51 PM

I’m not a wicked person, but for Brazil’s sake I really truly hope that evil f***er ends up in intensive care on a vent. Maybe then he will take this f***ing thing seriously when it almost kills him.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 7 2020, 07:05 PM

They should make it mandatory to show ID and note them down etc so they can track them better.

Don't wanna show your ID? Poor you, no drinks for you

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 7 2020, 07:13 PM

As far as I am aware, I think the idea is that all the people in a restaurant or pub where an infected person has been will be asked to self-isolate for 14 days. That applies even to people who haven't been anywhere near the infected person and they won't be able to get a test that lets them end their self-isolation after a few days. In that case, it is hardly surprising that a lot of people don't want to put themselves through that.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 7 2020, 07:37 PM

I don’t understand the selfishness. If you want to go to a bar so desperately then give the damn details. If not. Then shut the shit up and stay the f*** at home.



Gladly gave my details to the bar in Berlin I was at a fortnight ago. No call from them so I’m in the clear from that night out.

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 7 2020, 09:41 PM

I see the WHO are finding from studies that C19 is possibly an airbourne virus.

Posted by: Hadji Jul 7 2020, 10:28 PM

Of course it’s airborne. If it can travel in droplets from coughing, sneezing, spitting or talking, it’s classed as airborne

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 8 2020, 07:17 AM

Trump's withdrawing the US from the WHO, it was confirmed yesterday. He has formally informed them and Congress of this. There had been speculation that he may wait until after the November election.

According to USA today, Joe Biden will immediately re-join if he becomes President.


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/07/covid-19-trump-officially-withdraws-us-world-health-organization/5391909002/

Posted by: *Tim Jul 8 2020, 09:42 AM

There's a difference though.

Airborne means that it is also found in smaller droplets,which can longer on the air for hours. The 1.5m rule was based on the fact that it was only travelling by big droplets released durong coughing, sneezing, talking for a longer time etc.

It is not yet know if the viral load is big enough to cause an infection in the smaller droplets though

Posted by: Rooney Jul 8 2020, 08:21 PM

Surprised no-one's mentioned the stamp duty tax which will benefit homeowners and not first time buyers, but also the nationalised Taste Card

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 8 2020, 08:33 PM

I much prefer to Eat Out To Help Out

Posted by: Brett-Butler Jul 8 2020, 09:21 PM

Just bought a flat so was literally a week too late to take advantage of the stamp duty changes. I'm hoping that Subway is included in the 50% food discount.

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 8 2020, 09:24 PM

The thing with these gimmicks from the chancellor is that it's all well and good giving people 50% off but it's about whether people want to go out and are fearful still.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 8 2020, 10:02 PM

I'm a bit disappointed that the rumoured '£500 to spend in the local economy supporting small businesses' wasn't announced. Clearly the annoucement on VAT is welcome but I feel the proposal, including that on the £10 vouchers on meals on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, will just end up benefitting the larger businesses and chains and is ultimately more of a sticking plaster on what could be a really awful 12-18 months for the hospitality sector, likely to conclude with many smaller businesses going under and many redundancies even from larger ones. It also was clearly aimed at distracting from the absolutely massive £15bn being spent on PPE (over 7 times greater than this big annoucement)! As you've mentioned Steve this is all about confidence and feeling safe when dining out in public (eating out, as Twitter pointed out today has rather DIFFERENT conotantions), I'm not sure whether this or a more efficient Track & Trace programme in place would be more effective at that - but for me the latter would be much more reassuring.

Don't get me started on the props for the corrupt UK property market, clearly designed to maintain the overly inflated property prices and benefit land barons like Mr Desmond.

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 8 2020, 11:47 PM

Short term temporary VAT cuts are a waste of f***ing time. A lot of tax departments in big businesses will be absolutely furious at not only the cut itself but the short notice. Many won’t have been able to properly update their systems by next week.


I wouldn’t hold my breath for the rate cut to be passed on. Small cafes are likely to be under vat threshold anyway if they’re a single wee shop so don’t charge vat already. Other SMEs are more likely to keep prices the same, or increase them post COVID and pocket the change to help them recuperate their losses. Big chains most likely to pass on but I can foresee some not.



Germany has a similarly pointless but wider VAT rate cut that is just a wholesale slashing of both vat rates. Big electronic stores are passing savings on, as is Netflix and Vodafone. But my food shop is still the same price, eating out is still the same price. Makes no difference to the end consumer in reality.

Posted by: blacksquare Jul 9 2020, 11:59 AM

Things really are about to get rough — I'm not convinced the new jobs scheme is actually going to work. No comment on that meal voucher idea either.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 9 2020, 12:30 PM

It's only going to work for those industries that were a bit on a knife edge. The problem we have is the high street as we know it has been slowly dying for a good few years and the pandemic is just going to accelerate the change.

The economy is going to shrink 20% the effect will be felt pretty much across all industries (even the manufactures and supermarkets who operated during lockdown). Supermarkets are doing OK but online delivery is a loss making service so prices are inevitably going to have to rise. It's why if we have a second wave there is no way we are going in to a national lockdown, I don't think we would survive economically.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 9 2020, 01:25 PM

Welsh Government have announced today that schools will return full time as normal in September with no social distancing between the children.

I’m relieved in a way because I really wasn’t sure about the ‘blended learning’ approach that we’ve been preparing for and you just can’t beat teaching children who are right in front of you. I do hope though that by September I’ll be able to do other things like go swimming again.

Perhaps some parents might be grateful to the teachers from this point on but seeing comments in the media, I won’t hold my breath.

Posted by: J00psyMethyd Jul 9 2020, 01:56 PM

Country's a load of shite. Offering some minimum wage jobs for 6 months, what a pisstake.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Jul 9 2020, 03:03 PM

I can't help feeling that some companies that were gearing up to take on new staff and pay them above the minimum wage will now take the opportunity to employ them and pay them nothing for six months.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 10 2020, 10:48 AM

Interesting deep dive here into the UK Coronavirus response (or lack thereof): https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/health-coronavirus-britain-tracing/

It's pretty damning (unsurprisingly), but well worth a read. Especially interesting is how it reports that many believe the UK community spread was seeded heavily from wealthy middle class people skiing in Italy and returning to the UK after the half-term holidays...

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 10 2020, 11:54 AM

I think the lack of mass testing at the start was a scandal, hospital workers couldn't get tested but celebrities and the royals could (as I argued at the time about Prince Charles much to most BJs annoyance). But for me it highlighted the inequalities in British society these days.

Nicola Sturgeon announcing movement into phase 3 and making face covering mandatory on public transport and in all enclosed spaces e.g. Shops etc.

Highlighting autistic children and people with breathing issues as exceptions but even for them to give it a go as you can get used to it and it's an important thing to try.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 10 2020, 03:58 PM

Skiing has been a big factor in Belgium and The Netherlands as well. The Netherlands had carnaval as an extra acceleration shortly afterwards, which caused 1 area in particular to be hit hard

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 10 2020, 04:05 PM

Ditto for Germany. Skiing and then Karneval in NRW lead to the Heinsberg hotspot that was for a while the leading Corona area in Germany.

Skiers then infected others in clubs and bars and stuff.




My quarantine in the UK is now over so ventured out today. Aside from one woman at post office, mask compliance was actually really good. Pleasantly surprised to see. Some supermarkets using a face shield rather than a mask tho. Would be interested to see if that is actually as effective as a mask

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 10 2020, 06:39 PM

So basically rich people brought it in on the way back from skiing and it's the poor worst affected now!

Posted by: Quarantilas Jul 10 2020, 07:25 PM

Yeah that sums it up nicely! When Berlin had around 300 cases, one third of them could be traced back to a single person who’d been for a ski holiday, as I think I’ve said before, according to the state health authorities.

Insanely easy to transmit

Posted by: *Tim Jul 10 2020, 08:11 PM

Well I wouldn't really call skiers rich

Posted by: T Boy Jul 10 2020, 08:19 PM

Well, I can’t afford to go skiing...

Posted by: *Tim Jul 10 2020, 08:27 PM

That's a shame, it's a lot of fun!

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 10 2020, 08:51 PM

Not if you break a leg though....

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn Jul 10 2020, 09:40 PM

Middle-class people who sought those trips on the basis of cheap travel.

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 11 2020, 12:47 PM

I deliberately said that to spark the debate lol but I would def say the majority who go skiing are fairly well off and most who go skiing from Jan - March generally don't miss out on a summer holiday either from my own experience of people I know.

Posted by: Hadji Jul 12 2020, 04:32 PM

Michael Gove was saying earlier that he doesn’t want masks being made mandatory in shops. My response to that is that he can piss off

Posted by: Steve201 Jul 12 2020, 04:56 PM

Why on Earth would he say that? It goes against what the who say!

Posted by: Hadji Jul 12 2020, 05:03 PM

Because he’s an idiot who doesn’t want to wear a mask and theres also a lot of people who are vowing not to wear them saying it damages their lungs. I’d rather breathe through a mask than a ventilator

Posted by: T Boy Jul 12 2020, 05:06 PM

Because they’re just testing out public reactions to wearing masks before they actually make a decision on it. They’ve done it with literally everything they’ve decided since the pandemic begun. Boris wears a mask the day before Gove slaps ‘British Common Sense’ on it and they see what the reactions are and find out which is more popular. This is how the government works. They don’t lead us, we lead them. It’s a mess.

Posted by: Hadji Jul 12 2020, 05:10 PM

He was also calling for masks not to be made mandatory on public transport. If Boris decides to make masks mandatory in buildings, it will encourage more people to go to their local shop, supermarket or indoor shopping centre etc. instead of living in fear. People who are complaining about masks should see what it’s like in China. Over there, they even have to wear masks outdoors

Posted by: Klaus Jul 12 2020, 05:13 PM

confuse the message -> blame the people

Posted by: Chez Wombat Jul 12 2020, 05:17 PM

Yet another case of us being ridiculously slow despite clear scientific evidence pointing to the fact it will help us. The simple fact is no one is going to wear them unless they are mandatory, it is utterly pointless 'asking' them to wear them. I can count on two hands the number of people I saw wearing a mask when I went to the supermarket last week. Cases are going down here which is a positive, but precaution is still needed, well done to Gove for yet again showing that all this government thinks about is money.

Posted by: Hadji Jul 12 2020, 05:25 PM

I thought I’d try my local supermarket for the first time in a while. I only counted 3 people wearing masks, the ones who weren’t kept getting in my face. I was even on the verge of ramming my trolley into them for breaking distancing rules and trying to get in my face. This is why I prefer getting deliveries to save hassle. Where I live, cases are very low and I wanna keep it like that

Posted by: Rooney Jul 12 2020, 06:29 PM

I don't think the Government are trying to blur the message on purpose, I fully believe that the Cabinet are just at odds with themselves. Personally I am against making them mandatory in all enclosed public spaces, but if they are made mandatory I can live with that. I find the cotton re-usable ones really uncomfortable, but the proper PPE masks are absolutely fine. My own personal opinion is that it is probably too late to implement in England now, I think they missed the opportunity when the shops opened mid-June.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 12 2020, 07:52 PM

I get people might find them uncomfortable but we’re talking shops and public transport here, the hope is you would be inside either one for an extensive amount of time. And you can use scarves and bandanas too which would probably be more comfortable. I really can’t see how anyone can be against it.

When this is all over and it turns out masks are useless then no one would have lost anything in wearing one. If it turns out they’re very effective then not using one could be harmful to others.

What I’m trying to say is it wouldn’t hurt the government to make them mandatory. Unless they’re concerned about losing the selfish gammon vote.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 12 2020, 07:58 PM

It's pitifully weak communication from the government, absolutely inexcusable and it further cements the case for independence in Scotland because they just see the administration there doing a far better job.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 12 2020, 08:42 PM

The problem is though, why make it mandatory now when we've all been going to the supermarkets and shops for months? Are people going to be encouraged or discouraged to go shopping now (and this fuel the economy). It's all stuff which should have been done months ago, it's much harder to get the engagement here.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 12 2020, 08:49 PM

Belgium has done this yesterday and practically everyone wore a mask. A lot understand that it is needed to keep the virus at it's low platteau that it is at now. Sure it would've been better to announce it directly, but we keep discovering more about this virus every day. The airborne spread has only been confirmed like a week ago or so! Now would be THE time to announce it

Posted by: Crazy Chris Jul 12 2020, 08:54 PM

I agree 100% with Trump that whilst it may help to contain the virus it should still be up to each individual to decide and shouldn't be forced upon people. He does talk a lot of sense at times, if not always. Civil rights and not being told what to do by the Government. Here's the US leader agreeing with that viewpoint.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 12 2020, 09:01 PM

Oh don't get me wrong - I think if England got told to wear a mask, most would wear it. It's a hard rule to police 100% though as realistically if you don't wear a mask you're not going to get fined etc.

Posted by: *Tim Jul 12 2020, 09:03 PM

Around here you can't enter any stores if you don't wear a mask, you get offered one at the entrance and if you refuse we will call the police on ur ass and get you a €350 fine 🤷‍♂️

Posted by: T Boy Jul 12 2020, 09:16 PM

But that’s just it, we’re now being encouraged to go out all the time so masks would be ideal if we’re serious about keeping the virus at bay. Supermarkets aside, we were being told to stay at home months ago.

Better late than never I say.

Posted by: Rooney Jul 12 2020, 09:41 PM

But the bigger is people are stupid. The amount of times I've seen people not wear masks properly, constantly touch their face to adjust the mask etc. etc. even pick their nose whilst weating a mask- people feel safer, but then some of the basic hygiene rules go out of the window. I think the counter argument is people then take more risks if they are wearing a mask in Western society and the messaging about social distancing (which is a much more effective measure) gets blurred.

Posted by: T Boy Jul 12 2020, 09:52 PM

But we’re only talking about shops and public transport. If we had to take people’s stupidity into account for everything, we’d never get anything done. We definitely wouldn’t be able to hold elections. The government need to take a solid stance on this but won’t. They’re trying to preemptively shirk blame.

Posted by: Doctor Blind Jul 12 2020, 09:56 PM

..and yet the advice about public transport is perfectly clear. A lot of the high street shops around here, particularly the independent ones are impossible to socially distance within, I feel like it is a huge dereliction of duty to not protect staff in a sector of the economy that is going to be hard hit for the next 12-18 months. There is unlikely to be a vaccine and we are unlikely to eradicate it, so until it mutates into a much weaker strain we will have to get used to wearing masks a lot more.

The point about being more complacent is a valid one, and I think the case needs to be made that masks don't reduce YOUR risk but those around you (and indirectly yours if everyone wears one). It is an entirely selfless altruistic act not a selfish one to wear one, and it only succeeds with near 100% compliance.