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Posted by: LaJüpe 25th November 2019, 11:09 AM

Thought this might be an interesting thread given NI's recent prominence in UK politics and the recurrent attack line on Corbyn, while the Tories are literally allied with the DUP.

Posted by: Tones and Iz 25th November 2019, 11:39 AM

Not as informed as I could be. I know the historical background, the basic timeline of the Troubles, the terror attacks the IRA carried out at their height (car bombings). The current political situation I'm not quite sure how to parse - with conflict within living memory my guess is that there is more weight attributed to whether you are a unionist or nationalist in NI than other parts of the UK. So I always try to be careful when making comments on the value judgments of particularly Northern Irish parties - though as can be expected, I'm certainly no fan of the DUP.

I would say I'm as informed on the domestic politics of the Republic of Ireland as much as I am any other Western European country, which is to say I'd know the head of government and their position on the political spectrum but not much else (Varadkar, centre-right - incidentally the differences between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil somewhat escape me).

Posted by: Harve 25th November 2019, 11:46 AM

I can understand the differences between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil but what I don't understand is how they've remained the two main parties for so long after the Anglo-Irish treaty, and why the divide hasn't become a left and right one like it is in most democracies.

(I know that there's also Labour and Sinn Féin as other large-ish parties)

Posted by: Brett-Butler 25th November 2019, 07:21 PM

I know a little bit, given that I'm from Northern Ireland and my grandfather was Vice-President of Sinn Fein.

Posted by: LaJüpe 26th November 2019, 03:13 AM

I figured you might have quite a bit to say!

Didn't know that last bit tho that must be interesting as an influence?

Posted by: Steve201 26th November 2019, 08:15 AM

I'm from NI and did a MA in Irish Politics.

Posted by: Steve201 26th November 2019, 08:17 AM

Up until the 1970s it was basically an arguement about who was the most republican with Fianna Fáil normally being the clear winner. There after they mainly have been both populist parties usually having to go into coalition with a smaller party.

They both hate SF not because of any principle but because SF represent a threat to their control of the populist nationalist vote in the ROI.

Another big reason is that irelannd developed differently than the uk - its always been a rural democracy with few industrial areas making left right politics a bit more blurred and distinctive.

Posted by: vidcapper 26th November 2019, 08:31 AM

If/when Ireland is reunited, surely there will no longer be a role for SF anyway?

Posted by: Steve201 26th November 2019, 06:57 PM

There probably will depending on how smart they are politically - theres a lot of SF members in NI who are right wing in rural areas and Marxist in urban areas like Belfast where they are competing with PBP etc.

Depends how things work out and who gives the most brown paper envelopes

Posted by: Brett-Butler 26th November 2019, 10:17 PM

Definitely, I grew up with the stories about what happened to him in the 60s and 70s from my mum, and how Ian Paisley directly led to his business being destroyed and him being imprisoned (one of the reasons that I could never in a million years vote for the DUP). He'd left Sinn Fein by the time I was born (he objected to its absentionism, among other issues), and as a staunch Catholic he definitely would not have liked it in its current form, but remained fairly well known in republican circles, as well as being a dedicated advocate of the Irish language.

I guess that my interest in politics does come through him a little bit, although I'd never call myself a republican and have never been involved in any of that stuff myself - I'd say I'm more of an "apathetic nationalist" than anything else when it comes to the constitutional question of a United Ireland.

Posted by: Steve201 26th November 2019, 11:17 PM

Would he have had Aontu sympathies?

Posted by: Brett-Butler 26th November 2019, 11:26 PM

I believe he would (although he died 10 years before they were formed), although I don't know how he'd feel about their absentionist policy.

Posted by: Steve201 26th November 2019, 11:31 PM

So his attraction to SF was due to his life experience during the defining years of the troubles rather than being a doctrainaire republican I would guess?

Posted by: Brett-Butler 26th November 2019, 11:36 PM

I couldn't answer that for sure, but he was involved in Sinn Fein well before the Troubles began.

Posted by: Harve 10th December 2019, 07:38 AM

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/north-belfast-old-struggle-has-new-face-can-dup-hold

The New Statesman ran an article targeted directly at Brett-Butler.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 10th December 2019, 12:27 PM

I don’t think I’ve ever read an article so obviously meant to be for me before.

Posted by: Harve 10th December 2019, 07:05 PM

So who are you as an 'apathetic nationalist' voting for.

Posted by: LexC 10th December 2019, 07:18 PM

I have the gist of the ~~situation~~ in Northern Ireland/The North of Ireland/The Six Counties but not super up on the exact timeline of everything that lead to the situation (although I know you could go back to the 12th century if you want to). Watching historical documentary "Derry Girls" a lot though, so I'm sure I'll totally be able to sit an A-Level on it before long.

Fun fact - my Grandfather was born in an IRA safehouse in the 1920s.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 10th December 2019, 08:00 PM

Haven't decided. "None of the Above" is still leading the way.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 11th December 2019, 12:58 AM

Ive said to you before Brett vote John!!

Imagine the feeling seeing Dodds face when he loses!!!

Posted by: Crazy Chris-tmas 11th December 2019, 09:28 AM

I know the basics about the troubles. My dad was from Southern Ireland so I'm half Irish, could get an Irish passport if I wanted. We were once in a pub in Dublin before we got the ferry home and exactly 7 days later it was bombed by the IRA.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 11th December 2019, 07:07 PM

You should really get a European passport then Chris

Posted by: Crazy Chris-tmas 11th December 2019, 07:50 PM

LOL. Stop stirring.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 12th December 2019, 12:00 AM

Liberty/freedom/equality!!

Posted by: December Dong 12th December 2019, 12:05 AM

I don't understand why Labour don't stand in NI?

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 12th December 2019, 12:17 AM

The party is organised here but they aren't allowed to stand for Westminster according to the nec.

They generally avoid the border issue which is a vote loser here.

The SDLP and SF both take the progressive social democrat position here.

Posted by: December Dong 12th December 2019, 12:21 AM

And is it the same for the Tories and Lib Dems?

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 12th December 2019, 12:30 AM

The Lib Dems aren't organised at all in NI but consider the Alliance apart as their sister party here. The tories organise and stand but barely get a few hundred votes in certain constituencies, the most in North Down or South Belfast.

Their views are taken up by the 2/3 unionist parties.

Indeed before the nationalist vs unionist arguement from the 1860s the nationalist or Catholics throughout the island were represented by the gladstonian liberals and the unionist Protestant people were represented by the Tory party. In the elections of the 1860/70s the political divide was liberal throughout the south and west while the north and east which is now NI were dominated by Tory mps( also a few tories in posh Dublin seats and the universities). Then this changed from 1870 onwards to unionist and nationalist nearly along exactly the same divide.

Posted by: Harve 12th December 2019, 12:32 AM

There is such a thing as the Northern Ireland Conservative Party but they're notionally independent from the GB party and they've not had much success. The Tories have historical ties with the UUP and, recently, the DUP.

Alliance are basically a sister party of the Lib Dems.

SDLP are pretty similar to Labour and would usually support a Labour government if necessary.

Posted by: December Dong 12th December 2019, 12:33 AM

So why is Labour not allowed to stand for parliament there, but it's okay for the Tories?

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 12th December 2019, 01:01 AM

It's to do with the Labour NEC not allowing it as they want to the SDLP to stand for their views. It's wrong tho!

Posted by: Harve 13th December 2019, 12:15 AM

Alliance are saying that they're close to the DUP in North Down! That would be significant.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 13th December 2019, 12:21 AM

Good news at last!

Posted by: Harve 13th December 2019, 10:31 PM

The election felt quite different for Northern Ireland as a whole. If I'm reading it right, there was less of the 'stop DUP/stop Sinn Féin' motivation that can sometimes take hold of both communities respectively, which in fact leads to large voteshares for both, such as in 2017.

People seemed to have turned against both of them and felt much less hesitant about voting for more moderate parties. Alliance and SDLP did very well (although Naomi Long in Belfast East didn't do too well when you compare elsewhere), the UUP less so. Even safe seats might be vaguely vulnerable next election: Alliance's growth at the DUP's expense in Lagan Valley was stunning.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 13th December 2019, 11:20 PM

Yeh I can see Stormont coming back in 2020 now...

Posted by: XmasIslandSnake 15th December 2019, 06:56 PM

Indeed our very own 'red wall' in NI (DUP is often represented on the map with the colour red) may soon be at risk of going the same way as the Labour one did. The massively increased Alliance vote was largely a anti-Brexit protest vote from some usually DUP voting unionists.

Posted by: ChristmaSteve201 15th December 2019, 07:56 PM

I would say a lot of them might stay with Alliance in future though, the dup have to look to move forward more progressively instead of he old bigoted mentality of the 1960s or they will lose their power and possibly country.