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Jupiter9
post Jul 13 2006, 05:11 PM
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Ok. Here's a really serious topic. cry.gif

Hezbollah (sp?) are apparently set to transfer the kidnapped Israeli soldiers to Iran. I guess it's an understatement to say Israel will not take kindly to that.
Does anyone think this has the potential to really really escalate? ( as if things are not bad enough ohmy.gif )

Any solutions to diffuse this situation?
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Tim Barnes
post Jul 13 2006, 05:38 PM
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I think there should just be a war in the region between Israel and Palestine and other territories etc this tension has been building up for decades they should just sort out their problems once and for all, all this tit for tat stuff is just ridiculous really
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Tom Araya
post Jul 13 2006, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 13 2006, 06:39 PM) *

I think there should just be a war in the region between Israel and Palestine and other territories etc this tension has been building up for decades they should just sort out their problems once and for all, all this tit for tat stuff is just ridiculous really

Exactly, sometimes war is needed to find peace. It would clear the deck and settle things in my opinion.
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Mushymanrob
post Jul 14 2006, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 13 2006, 06:39 PM) *

I think there should just be a war in the region between Israel and Palestine and other territories etc this tension has been building up for decades they should just sort out their problems once and for all, all this tit for tat stuff is just ridiculous really



im very very bored of hearing about these people fighting, they will NEVER agree and live in peace, dispite their 'peaceful' religion.

so yes, i agree ozzy, just arm the mad bstds and let them kill eachother, but WITHOUT any interfereance from uncle sam... dry.gif who will naturaly back isreal as the usa is run by people of isreali extraction!


seriously though, this is a problem that dates back decades, the deep seated, inherant hatred of eachother is not going to be 'sorted', it cant be, it wont.

the main concern to me is that it could easily be the catalyst that starts ww3. muslim nations backing the palestinians, america and the west backing isreal. its another crusade, christian vs muslim, both sides have 'gods' support of course dry.gif
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 18 2006, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE(mushymanrob @ Jul 14 2006, 06:21 PM) *

im very very bored of hearing about these people fighting, they will NEVER agree and live in peace, dispite their 'peaceful' religion.

so yes, i agree ozzy, just arm the mad bstds and let them kill eachother, but WITHOUT any interfereance from uncle sam... dry.gif who will naturaly back isreal as the usa is run by people of isreali extraction!
seriously though, this is a problem that dates back decades, the deep seated, inherant hatred of eachother is not going to be 'sorted', it cant be, it wont.

the main concern to me is that it could easily be the catalyst that starts ww3. muslim nations backing the palestinians, america and the west backing isreal. its another crusade, christian vs muslim, both sides have 'gods' support of course dry.gif


You make some pretty good point there mate, but as far as I'm concerned the Zionists have caused nothing but trouble ever since they planted themselves there in the 1920s and actively sought to undermine the more controlled migration of Jews into Palestine from Europe that Britain and the French favoured... People seem to forget that it was Militant Zionists that started terrorism in the region, both against Arabs and against the British Mandate soldiers who were trying to protect Arabs in the 1940s...

When Britain and France were coerced to leave by the Americans (otherwise they'd've never gotten the much needed Marshall Plan aid...), the Zionists set about displacing the Palestinians off of their land in the most brutal fashion and basically making them refugees in their own country, forcing them to flee to Jordan, Syria, etc. This was effectively ethnic cleansing if you ask me.... In the 1970s, the UN itself declared that Zionism was another branch of Imperialism (which it is)...

The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers is just a feeble excuse (like the Gulf of Tonkin incident was an excuse for the US to plant itself in Vietnam) to attack and re-occupy South Lebanon, it's especially feeble when you take into account that Israel is illegally holding over 10,000 Arab prisoners - including women and children. The Israelis have no right to cry foul if their people are being kidnapped if you ask me... The Zionists have been planning this for years, ever since Hezbollah kicked them out six years ago. Hezbollah is situated in South Lebanon, and they play no part in Lebanese Govt policy-making, so what exactly is the justification for bombing Beirut, which is in the north of the country and is where the seat of Parliament is? The Lebanese Govt is Pro-West, I see absolutely no justification whatsoever for Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure and causing misery to the Lebanese people. All it will probably achieve is for Lebanese people who may not have been particularly sympathetic towards Hezbollah to just rally round them simply because their country is being attacked by an aggressive foreign power....

I suspect a revolution may occur in Lebanon and that the sh!t may really hit the fan...

Oh, and by the way mate, we already had WW3 - the proxy wars in Latin America, Asia and Indo-China/Cambodia which ran from the late 50s to the 70s were the WW3. I've been watching a really fascinating series on C4 called "War of the World" in which this Historian is putting across some really fascinating and pretty sound theories on the so-called "Cold War"....
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prettyinpink
post Jul 18 2006, 01:41 PM
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lets not forget who wrote the bible(old testement) what the bible is full of, and why. so the fight over that land has been going on for a good long time - it won't go away.

I cannot see how it can be resolved, but I am sure if Iran gets it's nuclear stuff uptodate, there could be a permanent solution blink.gif
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Tom Araya
post Jul 18 2006, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(GRIMLY FIENDISH @ Jul 18 2006, 08:55 AM) *

Oh, and by the way mate, we already had WW3 - the proxy wars in Latin America, Asia and Indo-China/Cambodia which ran from the late 50s to the 70s were the WW3. I've been watching a really fascinating series on C4 called "War of the World" in which this Historian is putting across some really fascinating and pretty sound theories on the so-called "Cold War"....

i saw that last night, it was very interesting biggrin.gif
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 18 2006, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(prettyinpink @ Jul 18 2006, 02:42 PM) *

lets not forget who wrote the bible(old testement) what the bible is full of, and why. so the fight over that land has been going on for a good long time - it won't go away.



Yeah, The Old Testament - written by Ancient Israelis so stands to reason that all this "promised land" guff would favour them; and this is the basis or all the Zionist's fanatacism... dry.gif They're just as nutty as the Islamists....

When the Zionism movement started up in the late 19th Century it had honourable intentions in a similar vein to the US Black Civil Rights Movement and the NAACP in the 1950s and 60s, but somewhere, somehow, the religious nutters hijacked it and look at the sh!t's that occurred because of it....
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Mushymanrob
post Jul 18 2006, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE(GRIMLY FIENDISH @ Jul 18 2006, 06:42 PM) *

Yeah, The Old Testament - written by Ancient Israelis so stands to reason that all this "promised land" guff would favour them; and this is the basis or all the Zionist's fanatacism... dry.gif They're just as nutty as the Islamists....

When the Zionism movement started up in the late 19th Century it had honourable intentions in a similar vein to the US Black Civil Rights Movement and the NAACP in the 1950s and 60s, but somewhere, somehow, the religious nutters hijacked it and look at the sh!t's that occurred because of it....



the 'promised land' given to 'gods chosen people'...... hmmm..... smacks of trouble.
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 19 2006, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE(mushymanrob @ Jul 18 2006, 08:50 PM) *

the 'promised land' given to 'gods chosen people'...... hmmm..... smacks of trouble.


It's almost, well, ever-so slightly Nazi in its outlook really innit...? When you think about it I mean, Hitler went on about the Ayrians being the "Master Race", the Zionists go on about the Jews being "God's Chosen People". Jeeez, it's really quite frightening how similar these ideologies actually are in a way...

Quite a cruel irony innit...?

Oh dear, I'm gonna be accused of being Anti-Semitic now, aint I....? laugh.gif laugh.gif
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Danny
post Jul 19 2006, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE(GRIMLY FIENDISH @ Jul 19 2006, 07:35 PM) *

It's almost, well, ever-so slightly Nazi in its outlook really innit...? When you think about it I mean, Hitler went on about the Ayrians being the "Master Race", the Zionists go on about the Jews being "God's Chosen People". Jeeez, it's really quite frightening how similar these ideologies actually are in a way...

Quite a cruel irony innit...?

Oh dear, I'm gonna be accused of being Anti-Semitic now, aint I....? laugh.gif laugh.gif

Not at all - I'm part Jewish, and I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said.
I cannot get over how disgusting the Israelis are. It would be like us attacking Ireland and killing hundreds each time there was an IRA attack...
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Mushymanrob
post Jul 19 2006, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE(GRIMLY FIENDISH @ Jul 19 2006, 07:35 PM) *

It's almost, well, ever-so slightly Nazi in its outlook really innit...? When you think about it I mean, Hitler went on about the Ayrians being the "Master Race", the Zionists go on about the Jews being "God's Chosen People". Jeeez, it's really quite frightening how similar these ideologies actually are in a way...

Quite a cruel irony innit...?

Oh dear, I'm gonna be accused of being Anti-Semitic now, aint I....? laugh.gif laugh.gif



i know, there is a rather spooky parallel, but with the wests backing i guess it goes unnoticed. how could it be otherwise when the sentate and parliament have a large jewish reprisentation.
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 19 2006, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jul 19 2006, 09:18 PM) *

Not at all - I'm part Jewish, and I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said.
I cannot get over how disgusting the Israelis are. It would be like us attacking Ireland and killing hundreds each time there was an IRA attack...


Thanks for saying so mate. I think I tried very hard to distinguish between the ordinary Jewish people and the tiny minority of Zionist fanatics who have hijacked the whole issue (and it seems the Israeli Knesset) and claim to speak for all the Jews in the world....

A good point you made about the IRA as well, even Thatcher would never have been able to justify British fighter jets going on a bombing raid in Dublin or the Falls Road area of Belfast..

The Israelis are just a bunch of murdering fukkin' fascists who pretend that they're the "civilised" ones in the region (yeah, cos treating their own Arab population like third class citizens in their own country, going so far as to even denying them Israeli nationality or walling them into Arab ghettoes is really fukkin' civilised innit....? dry.gif ) , when in fact they're no better than the Iranians, Hezbollah or Hamas....
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Mushymanrob
post Jul 20 2006, 12:19 PM
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........ same with muslims or even christians. its the fanatics, the hard liners who offend straight thinking peoples.
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Consie
post Jul 21 2006, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE(mushymanrob @ Jul 19 2006, 03:41 PM) *

i know, there is a rather spooky parallel, but with the wests backing i guess it goes unnoticed. how could it be otherwise when the sentate and parliament have a large jewish reprisentation.


Interesting, can another Brit here confirm that there is a large Jewish presence in Parliament? I didn't know that. It's absolutely the sole reason that the US supports Israel (even its blatant terrorism)... despite the fact that there are more Arabs in the US, the Jewish people have a huge governmental presence, influence, and power.

In Chicago here there have been many protests. Sad how even in the West it's the Zionists marching pro-Israel and the Arabs marching pro-Islam.

Is there any more reason on earth that religion is ****ed up and only divides people and causes more violence and chaos than it prevents?
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Mushymanrob
post Jul 21 2006, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE(Consie @ Jul 21 2006, 05:40 AM) *

Interesting, can another Brit here confirm that there is a large Jewish presence in Parliament? I didn't know that. It's absolutely the sole reason that the US supports Israel (even its blatant terrorism)... despite the fact that there are more Arabs in the US, the Jewish people have a huge governmental presence, influence, and power.

In Chicago here there have been many protests. Sad how even in the West it's the Zionists marching pro-Israel and the Arabs marching pro-Islam.

Is there any more reason on earth that religion is ****ed up and only divides people and causes more violence and chaos than it prevents?



EXACTLY!.... smile.gif
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jakee
post Jul 22 2006, 03:21 AM
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Of course the routes of this whole problem goes back some 100 years. Jews have been the victim of persecution in Europe in various times throughout the 20th century, ultimatley accumilating in the creation of Israel which Britain especially plays a large part in the creation of. Of course history has re-written itself and Israel is right, Palestine is wrong. This the fundamental principles that news coverage bases itself upon here in the Uk even the neutral/left-leaning BBC positions itself in this way. Which is just another example of why the media is so difficult to trust for straight facts these days.

I simply see this as Israel exerting its might which is helped co-incidently through billions of dollars worth of loans from the US. No suprise that the US feels this conflict is acceptable, it stands to do very well from it a la early years of world war 2. Of course Roosevelt stepped in then on the basis of the oh-so predictable Pearl Harbour incident (another parellel to draw with the current conflict i.e. excuses to exert warfare).

As long as Israel, through its religious bckground is allowed special treatment (nuclear weapons, persecution of arabs etc) the region will continue to be unstable.

What will be interesting to watch will be if Syria and Iran become more involved. If they do in a mild way then the US will leave Israel to bomb etc independantly as it has Iraq/Afghanistan todeal with. IF and it is a big IF, israel struggles then i either see an oppurtunity for the first use of nuclear weapons since 1945 or American support. Neither of which are particularly probable but still possible all the less. This conflict certainly is far from through imo.
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 22 2006, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(Consie @ Jul 21 2006, 05:40 AM) *

Interesting, can another Brit here confirm that there is a large Jewish presence in Parliament? I didn't know that. It's absolutely the sole reason that the US supports Israel (even its blatant terrorism)... despite the fact that there are more Arabs in the US, the Jewish people have a huge governmental presence, influence, and power.

In Chicago here there have been many protests. Sad how even in the West it's the Zionists marching pro-Israel and the Arabs marching pro-Islam.

Is there any more reason on earth that religion is ****ed up and only divides people and causes more violence and chaos than it prevents?


The Jewish Lobby certainly has the ear of the movers and shakers in Govt. But it's more to do with Blair and co just going along with whatever the Yanks decide, even if that meant jumping off the bloody Tower Bridge, Blair and his other pro-Yank poodles would probably do it..... dry.gif

If an anti-Israel protest happened in London, I reckon you'd see a mixture of Muslims, Christians, Socialists/Leftists, many Jews who are against the Isreali Govt, and ordinary people, just like what happened with the Anti-Iraq war protests a few years ago. America is polarised into ethnic and racial groups in a way that UK is not... Despite the best efforts of the gutter press to drive a wedge between Muslim and non-Muslim peoples.....
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Tim Barnes
post Jul 22 2006, 10:30 AM
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Israel are acting in self defence, hundreds of rockets have been launched by Palestinians and Hezbollah into areas like Haifa killing dozens of Israeli civilians

Palestinians and Hezbollah TERRORISTS have a history of using human shields (usually women and children), say you are an Israeli field commander and intelligence points you to a building where the organiser of the rocket attacks is staying do you spare him on the grounds he might have human shields or do you raze the building to the ground thus reducing the security threat to Israel ??? there is no choice but to do the former even if it means wiping out the human shield

Just remember to yourself next time you hear of Israel killing 20 palestinian women and children that they were infact killing a terrorist but the terrorist had 20 women and children in the building being held hostage

I support Israel fully over this action

1) Palestine is not a nation, it is not recognised by the UN as a nation, it is simply a territory with a state assembly, bit like Wales or Scotland or something but Palestine is not a nation

2) The Palestinian people had the opportunity to elect the peace orientated Mahmoud Abbas in last years referendum but instead chose to elect Hamas a terrorist group that has in its mandate and philosophy the complete destruction of Israel and who over decades have been responsible for many terrorist atrocities against Israel and America, given the fact that the Palestinian people elected a terrorist organisation to represent them instead of Mahmoud Abbas they have every right to be treated as a terrorist state by Israel

3) Ariel Sharon's Roadmap To Peace which involved a pullout from Palestinian territory and the destruction of settlements on Palestinian soil was the biggest peacetime concession since the state of Israel was formed but how did the Palestinians greet that ? by blowing up buses killing innocent Israeli's, Sharon bent over backwards to help bring about peace and the Palestinians spat in their faces

4) Palestinian schools teach Palestinian kids to refer to the Israeli's as pigs, a whole generation is bought up on the ethos that Israeli's are pigs, the Palestinian education system is anti semetic and breeds terrorism

Israel is merely defending itself against terrorists who want to destroy the nation
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GRIMLY FIENDISH
post Jul 22 2006, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 22 2006, 11:31 AM) *

Israel are acting in self defence, hundreds of rockets have been launched by Palestinians and Hezbollah into areas like Haifa killing dozens of Israeli civilians

Palestinians and Hezbollah TERRORISTS have a history of using human shields (usually women and children), say you are an Israeli field commander and intelligence points you to a building where the organiser of the rocket attacks is staying do you spare him on the grounds he might have human shields or do you raze the building to the ground thus reducing the security threat to Israel ??? there is no choice but to do the former even if it means wiping out the human shield

Just remember to yourself next time you hear of Israel killing 20 palestinian women and children that they were infact killing a terrorist but the terrorist had 20 women and children in the building being held hostage

I support Israel fully over this action

1) Palestine is not a nation, it is not recognised by the UN as a nation, it is simply a territory with a state assembly, bit like Wales or Scotland or something but Palestine is not a nation

2) The Palestinian people had the opportunity to elect the peace orientated Mahmoud Abbas in last years referendum but instead chose to elect Hamas a terrorist group that has in its mandate and philosophy the complete destruction of Israel and who over decades have been responsible for many terrorist atrocities against Israel and America, given the fact that the Palestinian people elected a terrorist organisation to represent them instead of Mahmoud Abbas they have every right to be treated as a terrorist state by Israel

3) Ariel Sharon's Roadmap To Peace which involved a pullout from Palestinian territory and the destruction of settlements on Palestinian soil was the biggest peacetime concession since the state of Israel was formed but how did the Palestinians greet that ? by blowing up buses killing innocent Israeli's, Sharon bent over backwards to help bring about peace and the Palestinians spat in their faces

4) Palestinian schools teach Palestinian kids to refer to the Israeli's as pigs, a whole generation is bought up on the ethos that Israeli's are pigs, the Palestinian education system is anti semetic and breeds terrorism

Israel is merely defending itself against terrorists who want to destroy the nation


And again, Craig, you defend Fascism.... Does it not occur to you that it's the Israelis that are the invaders on Arab soil and that they are merely defending themselves against a nation that has developed nuclear weapons illegally against every UN non-proliferation treaty....?

As far as I'm concerned the Palestinians are not acting any differently to the likes of William Wallace did against the English invaders or the Czech, French or Polish did against the Nazis. Or the Zapatistas, the Free Irish Army who defended their democratic constitution against the brutality of the "Black and Tans", the ANC who were represented the black majority against a brutal white minority regime, and countless other Freedom Fighting groups. So easy for people in the West in their arrogance to label the Palestinians as Terrorists simply because they didnt vote in the so-called 'right' way (in other words, the way that Bush and Blair wanted them to vote...)

And if we're gonna talk about body counts, let's just compare the amount of Palestinians and Arabs the Israelis have murdered over the years to the amount of Israelis the Palestinians have killed.. You wanna go there...?

And I notice you aint even mentioned one sodding word about Isreal's war-crimes against the sovereign state and democratically elected, Pro-West Govt of Lebanon, which has NOT declared war against Israel or given Israel permission to act on its soil.. What, even a Pro-Zionist cheerleader such as yourself cant even find an argument to back that play....?

Oh, and if we're gonna talk prisoners as a pathetic excuse for all this, let's talk about the 10,000 Arab prisoners (many of whom are women and children) that are being held ILLEGALLY and WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL in Israli prisons. Some of whom have been there for almost 25 fukkin' years!!! Just how patient do you expect people to be in the face of this sort of flagrant human rights abuse....? Hamas and Hezbollah have taken soldiers as prisoners in all cases, Israel have taken many ordinary people, who are not combatants....
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