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BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ University course funding

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 29 2019, 08:22 AM

Should the government subsidise university courses that are more likely to lead to well-paying work?

Posted by: Veles Shadow Oct 29 2019, 10:56 PM

All courses should be funded. Education up to 18 is funded. University used to be much better supported.

How do you quantify what's valuable anyway? Different degrees lead to different "high paying work" in different industries, all positions that need to be filled, and honours degrees have loads of general transferable academic skills allowing for general graduate jobs to spring up.

I suppose what you're implying means that STEM subjects get a free pass, the arts and humanities are yet again overlooked and people without a natural aptitude for STEM subjects and more of an interest in others are pushed towards STEM through financial incentive. There's then a saturation of graduates in said industries and more money is wasted when drop outs inevitably increase in those subjects.

Posted by: Wicked Wombat of the West Oct 29 2019, 11:15 PM

All university courses as a minimum teach key transferrable skills and develop experience that are suitable for most jobs out there and that includes arts and humanities subjects, even if it isn't related to what you study, it can still put you on the right pathway, my job isn't really related but I wouldn't have got it without my university qualifications, that's for sure. There is no reason we should be elitist about it. Yes, I have definitely seen courses that are pretty unrealistic and narrow in scope of a career, but we shouldn't berate those that choose this, as where else is an 18 year old with no experience going to go?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 29 2019, 11:22 PM

Education should be based on your ability to learn not your ability to pay. As much as I may seriously side eye people at Napier doing a degree in tourism or people on that Harry Potter studies course, education is a valuable thing and any opportunity to support people bettering themselves should be encouraged.

Thankfully, I grew up in a country where the government shares this view and I didn’t pay any fees to go to Uni. I’m the first person in my family, from either branch of it to graduate from University. I wouldn’t have been able to afford to go without the support of the Scottish Government of both Lib/Lab and SNP varieties.

Posted by: Tones and Iz Oct 29 2019, 11:33 PM

Rather, the solution should be to discourage employment positions from requiring a university degree and encourage vocational courses if we're going to try and solve the problem of degree inflation. And remove fees, all it is right now is a social mobility tax and a financial crash waiting to happen, and not one that other countries have signed up for.

And yes, non-STEM can be incredibly valuable. Depends on instituition but https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190401-why-worthless-humanities-degrees-may-set-you-up-for-lifethat humanities graduates are more likely to be strong in qualities that employers in general favour, critical thinking, creativity, persuasion, people management. Evaluation based on certain university courses is wrong, as studying any subject at a high level gives you different skills depending on the course's requirements.

and indeed, the really important thing about university is that you are learning. It should be an opportunity available to all, to make the population better educated.

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM

QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 29 2019, 10:56 PM) *
All courses should be funded. Education up to 18 is funded. University used to be much better supported.

How do you quantify what's valuable anyway? Different degrees lead to different "high paying work" in different industries, all positions that need to be filled, and honours degrees have loads of general transferable academic skills allowing for general graduate jobs to spring up.


Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen? w00t.gif

Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are!

Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin Oct 30 2019, 09:11 AM

If anything I feel kinda the opposite. Social science students whose courses cost maybe a grand p/a to run shouldn't be subsidising STEM students who will go on to make much higher salaries over the course of their working lives, and from the off too.

But as usual in this discussion there's a lot of conflation between uni courses that qualify one for A specific career and courses which give the skills to go down multiple paths. Something like sociology or philosophy levels up your information gathering & critical thinking skills above most e.g. STEM courses which one can then take forward to report writing and analysing, sales negotiations, diplomacy, company policy writing and all sorts of similar practical applications.

Again to use myself as an example I work in finance but was specifically hired because of my humanities and arts background because this role was known to involve a lot of presenting, internal sales and training of others - aspects of work which many of my colleagues from a pure maths/IT background have never had to hone and as a result are less proficient in, which slows down the business overall.

Posted by: mald487 Oct 30 2019, 12:05 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM) *
Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen? w00t.gif

Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are!


You really look at things in an over simplistic way.

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 30 2019, 01:53 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 30 2019, 12:05 PM) *
You really look at things in an over simplistic way.


I find broad statements help me to better cover the bases... wink.gif

Posted by: Veles Shadow Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM

No, they just ignore the nuance and make you sound ignorant.

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM) *
Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen? w00t.gif

Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are!
I studied Popular Music at university with an emphasis on music technology and marketing. It's a booming industry and as a recent graduate I've recently been picking up several interviews in said industry. But I suppose to you I've wasted my time because it's a degree in the arts. Ironic, considering your interest in the charts but I digress.

Why isn't Philosophy valuable to you anyway? The amount of critical thinking skills, writing skills and historical knowledge you'd gain would make a philosophy graduate eligible for a whole host of positions, particularly in academic, political or journalistic sectors. Just because the job position and career label isn't always exactly the same as the degree it doesn't mean that the skills aren't transferable or useful. All degrees require independent research, academic writing and critical thinking, and all honours degrees (so, pretty much all undergraduate degrees) require a dissertation.

People have to study what they're interested in, or they won't do well on their degree and it follows that they won't do well in their career if they're not interested in that either. Of course there are some degrees that make you go "why??" when it's tourism or whatever like Silas says but even they will usually have those transferable skills.

Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates?

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM

QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM) *
Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates?


I went to college, rather than Uni, as back in the 'dark ages' university was far less of an option.

Posted by: Tones and Iz Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM

Taking a 'plug and play' approach to degrees into jobs is very simplistic indeed. You will often find people go into graduate jobs unrelated to their degree, as in some industries, maybe the technical content of the job is such that it can be trained without the need for three years of further study in the subject, while the soft skills and other advantages gained from studying any rigorous degree for so long are much more valuable. Jupiter's post above is a brilliant example.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 30 2019, 02:55 PM

I can firmly second Jupiters post. I work in a big 4 accounting firm and most of our graduate intake didn’t actually study accounting at University. We take any degree. You’ve demonstrated valuable skills in completing that degree and it is those skills as well as your personal skills that make you valuable to us. We can teach you tax or audit or consulting etc but we can’t teach you critical thinking, research skills and much more.

Pretty much the only exception is Actuarial where you need a really narrow set of degrees because of the complexity of work involved

Posted by: mald487 Oct 30 2019, 04:40 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 01:53 PM) *
I find broad statements help me to better cover the bases... wink.gif


Yep..Broad, sweeping, often incorrect statements.

Posted by: mald487 Oct 30 2019, 04:42 PM

QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM) *
No, they just ignore the nuance and make you sound ignorant.I studied Popular Music at university with an emphasis on music technology and marketing. It's a booming industry and as a recent graduate I've recently been picking up several interviews in said industry. But I suppose to you I've wasted my time because it's a degree in the arts. Ironic, considering your interest in the charts but I digress.

Why isn't Philosophy valuable to you anyway? The amount of critical thinking skills, writing skills and historical knowledge you'd gain would make a philosophy graduate eligible for a whole host of positions, particularly in academic, political or journalistic sectors. Just because the job position and career label isn't always exactly the same as the degree it doesn't mean that the skills aren't transferable or useful. All degrees require independent research, academic writing and critical thinking, and all honours degrees (so, pretty much all undergraduate degrees) require a dissertation.

People have to study what they're interested in, or they won't do well on their degree and it follows that they won't do well in their career if they're not interested in that either. Of course there are some degrees that make you go "why??" when it's tourism or whatever like Silas says but even they will usually have those transferable skills.

Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates?


Thank you. You've put this far more eloquently than I could have.

Posted by: Veles Shadow Oct 30 2019, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM) *
I went to college, rather than Uni, as back in the 'dark ages' university was far less of an option.
I mean that’s fair enough that you didn’t go, not everyone has to, and certainly it’s more common to go these days. But you are talking about things you clearly only have a limited knowledge of, seeing as you have no experience in the education system you’re assigning varying levels of value to.

I’m sure you’ve just been reading the news talking specifically about the value of STEM and it’s “common sense” that people should chase areas where there are seemingly more high paying jobs (though a saturation of workers will bring that value down) but there are so many industries for so many different lines of work, all valuable. The music industry is a huge part of lots of people’s lives, this website is based around it, politics are very relevant to everyone and where would we be without literature and history? Society can’t progress only in one area, even science often progresses through imagination and creative thought- science inspires art and art inspires science.

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 31 2019, 05:15 AM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 30 2019, 02:55 PM) *
Pretty much the only exception is Actuarial where you need a really narrow set of degrees because of the complexity of work involved


Doesn't that apply to the Law, too?

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 31 2019, 09:09 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 31 2019, 05:15 AM) *
Doesn't that apply to the Law, too?

Nope, 2:1 in any degree discipline is our firms entry requirements for legal. Sure a law degree probably helps in the same way an accounting degree helps if you come in one of our core streams but it’s not a requirement and quite a number of our graduate and apprenticeship intake have no education background in accounting

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 31 2019, 09:24 AM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 09:09 AM) *
Nope, 2:1 in any degree discipline is our firms entry requirements for legal. Sure a law degree probably helps in the same way an accounting degree helps if you come in one of our core streams but it’s not a requirement and quite a number of our graduate and apprenticeship intake have no education background in accounting


Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I'd prefer to hire someone with relevant experience, rather than a degree in an unrelated subject.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 31 2019, 10:43 AM

They’ve no work experience and at that level the little experience they have is irrelevant. I can teach someone basic accounting skills. I can’t teach them attitude and research skills and other things that university provides

Posted by: mald487 Oct 31 2019, 11:22 AM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 10:43 AM) *
They’ve no work experience and at that level the little experience they have is irrelevant. I can teach someone basic accounting skills. I can’t teach them attitude and research skills and other things that university provides


Exactly this. There is a reason why some professions will accept people with a variety of degrees. The degree itself quite doesn't often provide that much in the way of work experience, but what it does show is an attitude for work, dedication and application.

Posted by: vidcapper Oct 31 2019, 02:56 PM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 10:43 AM) *
They’ve no work experience and at that level the little experience they have is irrelevant. I can teach someone basic accounting skills. I can’t teach them attitude and research skills and other things that university provides


What, like inability to handle the *real world* unless they have 'safe spaces' to cower in, and how to abuse anyone who dares to question their liberal views? teresa.gif

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 31 2019, 03:13 PM

No. Things like critical thinking skills where they can question information put before them, uncover the sources and form an appropriate judgement based on a full set of facts. Given your post above, it’s a skill you could do with

Posted by: mald487 Oct 31 2019, 05:22 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 31 2019, 02:56 PM) *
What, like inability to handle the *real world* unless they have 'safe spaces' to cower in, and how to abuse anyone who dares to question their liberal views? teresa.gif


More assumptions and generalizations I see from somone who has limited knowledge in this area...and then you wonder why people struggle to take your views seriously. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin Oct 31 2019, 08:23 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 31 2019, 02:56 PM) *
What, like inability to handle the *real world* unless they have 'safe spaces' to cower in, and how to abuse anyone who dares to question their liberal views? teresa.gif


In my experience its right wingers and old people who want their safe spaces free of foreigners, gays, transgender people, those poorer than them, and basically anyone not exactly or near exactly like them with the same shared values and traditional approach. Except they don't just want a certain space, they want all the space they might want to occupy or visit to be like that.

Or does that not count because it's 'normal'?

Posted by: mald487 Oct 31 2019, 08:31 PM

QUOTE(TheJü-Pumpkin @ Oct 31 2019, 08:23 PM) *
In my experience its right wingers and old people who want their safe spaces free of foreigners, gays, transgender people, those poorer than them, and basically anyone not exactly or near exactly like them with the same shared values and traditional approach. Except they don't just want a certain space, they want all the space they might want to occupy or visit to be like that.

Or does that not count because it's 'normal'?



This.

"I can think and say what I want. I´m entitled to my opinion".

Yes, you absolutely are, and when your opinion is that I shouldn´t be allowed the same rights and privileges as you because I am different to you, then I have the right to call you out for being bigoted, hateful, homophobic etc.

It´s very simple.

Posted by: Wicked Wombat of the West Oct 31 2019, 09:12 PM

I thought it would take longer before you’d resort to right wing soundbites, congrats, you just forgot Snowflakes.

Also it’s a component of majority of degree courses in all areas to have work experience as part of their degree, and that includes non STEM subjects. What you get out of university is what you put in, a lot of employers will look at your attitudes and skills mainly over degree course titles. I know English Literature, Film Studies, Creative Writing and History graduates that are working in high paying financial roles (and creative roles exist, you've just gotta be persistent, university studies does at the very least show you what it's like).

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Oct 31 2019, 10:03 PM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 10:43 AM) *
They’ve no work experience and at that level the little experience they have is irrelevant. I can teach someone basic accounting skills. I can’t teach them attitude and research skills and other things that university provides



They could do a year in McDonalds first to get an idea of getting out of bed and going to work in a morning. biggrin.gif

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Oct 31 2019, 10:31 PM

And what would you know about that?

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Oct 31 2019, 10:40 PM

QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 10:31 PM) *
And what would you know about that?



The post was just tongue-in-cheek. Have you no sense of humour? biggrin.gif

Posted by: vidcapper Nov 1 2019, 06:26 AM

QUOTE(TheJü-Pumpkin @ Oct 31 2019, 08:23 PM) *
In my experience its right wingers and old people who want their safe spaces free of foreigners, gays, transgender people, those poorer than them, and basically anyone not exactly or near exactly like them with the same shared values and traditional approach. Except they don't just want a certain space, they want all the space they might want to occupy or visit to be like that.

Or does that not count because it's 'normal'?


That's a mass of stereotypes, which I thought lefties usually tried to avoid? unsure.gif

Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn Nov 1 2019, 04:00 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 31 2019, 10:03 PM) *
They could do a year in McDonalds first to get an idea of getting out of bed and going to work in a morning. biggrin.gif


This is the most painful irony.


Posted by: mald487 Nov 1 2019, 04:27 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 31 2019, 10:03 PM) *
They could do a year in McDonalds first to get an idea of getting out of bed and going to work in a morning. biggrin.gif



Well, then they would already be an infinitely more attractive prospective employee than YOU by actually having WORKED.

D

Posted by: mald487 Nov 1 2019, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 1 2019, 06:26 AM) *
That's a mass of stereotypes, which I thought lefties usually tried to avoid? unsure.gif



Note the words "In my experience"

Posted by: mald487 Nov 1 2019, 04:32 PM

Funny how on one thread we have someone moaning about higher wages and better workers rights whose NEVER worked, and on another we have someone making snidey remarks about graduates and degrees when they didn´t go through the University system themselves.

It´s almost as if they have limited knowledge or experience on the perspective subjects and are merely basing their generalizations on stuff that they have heard thrown about on TV and in the media. teresa.gif teresa.gif

Posted by: vidcapper Nov 8 2019, 06:03 AM

Related article...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7662797/Analysis-shows-maths-level-adds-6-000-salary-compared-geography-biology.html

Why it pays to do maths A level: Analysis shows qualification adds £6,000 to a salary in just six years compared to geography or biology

Other high earning subjects include physics, computing and business studies
History A-level produces average salary of £19,400 or upper quartile £24,200
Sutton Trust said it hoped data would help pupils make more informed choices
Figures draw on tax data from those who took A-levels in 2010/11 were earning

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 9 2019, 10:37 PM

I think the system as it is with student loans and them having to pay it back is just fine and let them study what they want. Free university education which was in before loans was an unfair tax burden to those who don't go to uni and start work from school at 16 or 18 or go on apprenticeships. Those who want higher education should pay for it themselves gradually once they start work. It's fine as it is now. If they don't earn a lot then they'll never pay it back. I hear my daughter's friends say they''ll soon start paying it back but so what? They've been to uni.

I suddenly thought a few months after Rachel died about her student loan. Wondered if we'd have to pay it back so rang them and no it's written off in full upon death. Had to send them the death certificate though as anyone could try it on and get someone to ring and say they'd died.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 9 2019, 10:40 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 1 2019, 04:27 PM) *
Well, then they would already be an infinitely more attractive prospective employee than YOU by actually having WORKED.



I could get a job tomorrow if I was fit to work as it's not always what you know but who you know. Wife's employers would give me one they say.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 9 2019, 11:25 PM

Genuine non-snarky suggestion alert...maybe keeping yourself busy and your mind occupied with a job would help your mental state. You might even make friends out of it smile.gif

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 9 2019, 11:34 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 9 2019, 11:25 PM) *
Genuine non-snarky suggestion alert...maybe keeping yourself busy and your mind occupied with a job would help your mental state. You might even make friends out of it smile.gif



Are you a psychiatrist? If not then maybe don't try to diagnose someone you don't even know in real life. My Dr says I'm unfit for work so that's good enough for me.

Oh and I have no desire to have any friends. Don't need 'em and don't want 'em. They're more trouble than they're worth I found. Wanting to go out and me having to buy rounds. Cheaper to drink at home alone.

Oh and they borrow your CD's and return them scratched and call you mean if you won't lend them out. No thanks, am fine alone with my dog.

Posted by: Envoirment Nov 9 2019, 11:39 PM

University funding should be free. Especially for the future as there will likely be a lot more high-skilled jobs as automation wipes out a lot of low paid labour-based work. Heck even now there are huge amounts of high skilled jobs that are vacant, which is why immigration is so high. It would pay off big time in the long term, as university being free would encourage more to go. There are a lot of valuable skills you can gain which are universal amongst degrees. Critical thinking, time management, working in teams, working independently, adhering to deadlines etc. Unforutnately most governments prioritse the short-term and their party, which usually costs money over the long-term.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 9 2019, 11:42 PM

We can't afford for it to be free though. We've elderly people and mentally ill teenagers in hospitals and mental hospitals as there are no places for them in the community. Plus sick and disabled are being found fit for work and having their benefits stopped due to cutbacks. The country has to tighten it's belt. Student loans are fine. If they want further education after 18 then lend them the money and let them pay it back. It's common sense.

Posted by: Envoirment Nov 10 2019, 02:22 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 9 2019, 11:42 PM) *
We can't afford for it to be free though. We've elderly people and mentally ill teenagers in hospitals and mental hospitals as there are no places for them in the community. Plus sick and disabled are being found fit for work and having their benefits stopped due to cutbacks. The country has to tighten it's belt. Student loans are fine. If they want further education after 18 then lend them the money and let them pay it back. It's common sense.


We can afford it quite easily if the government wants to. Not to mention in the long-term it would be beneficial as you'd have more people in higher paid, higher skilled jobs which would increase tax revenue. The cutbacks to public services are due to the Conservatives' austerity over the last decade which hasn't worked out very well. One thing future governments are going to need to do is raise taxes regardless, likely both income tax, national insurance and stop the freeze on fuel duty.

The Brexit mess isn't making things any better either and Brexit itself, regardless of its form, will leave the government with less money for vital services/education etc. They've already spent £billions on no deal preparations and the uncertainty has caused growth to by lower than it otherwise would be.

There's no financial reason the government can't make university education free. I mean if they closed off shore tax loopholes and taxed the large corperations properly, particularly large digital companies (Amazon/Facebook/Google etc), that would more than pay for free university education.

Posted by: JüpaHulaHula Nov 10 2019, 02:50 AM

This is the same country that just spent 100 million pounds on an ad campaign that said 'Get ready for Brexit! Check this website!' which sent anyone who followed the link to an empty website that was under construction.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 08:36 AM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Nov 10 2019, 02:22 AM) *
There's no financial reason the government can't make university education free. I mean if they closed off shore tax loopholes and taxed the large corperations properly, particularly large digital companies (Amazon/Facebook/Google etc), that would more than pay for free university education.



Why should it be free though? Why shouldn't students have loans and pay back for their education when they start work? There choice to stay on in to further education. Seems fine to me. There's nothing for nothing in this world. That money can be used for other better services or housing or NHS.

Posted by: T Boy Nov 10 2019, 09:56 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 08:36 AM) *
Why should it be free though? Why shouldn't students have loans and pay back for their education when they start work? There choice to stay on in to further education. Seems fine to me. There's nothing for nothing in this world. That money can be used for other better services or housing or NHS.


That’s awfully rich considering that’s exactly what you’ve had for the past 40 years. You’re lacking empathy because you were never a student yourself (which actually, studying is something you could have been doing the last few decades considering you’re apparently unable to work) and besides even if your had gone to university at age 18, you wouldn’t have had tuition fees and your would have received a maintenance GRANT not loan which wouldn’t have had to have been paid back.

But I guess you’re right. Young people who have the audacity to want to better themselves should be in debt for years on end. Especially if they’re cheeky enough to want a further education when they don’t have the funds for it. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 10:50 AM

QUOTE(T Boy @ Nov 10 2019, 09:56 AM) *
But I guess you’re right. Young people who have the audacity to want to better themselves should be in debt for years on end. Especially if they’re cheeky enough to want a further education when they don’t have the funds for it. rolleyes.gif



It's not a huge debt though, a few thousand. Many people owe that much to loan sharks and the amount students will pay back will only be a tiny fraction of what they earn over a few years. I had this argument with Rachel's friends last time they came as one's started on a fairly high income for a new graduate so has to start paying back straight away.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 10:57 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 9 2019, 11:34 PM) *
Are you a psychiatrist? If not then maybe don't try to diagnose someone you don't even know in real life.


Do not get sh*tty with me. It was a genuine attempt to be nice. I know everybodys situation is different, but keeping myself busy and keeping my mind occupied helped me through the darkest period of my depression. No, I'm not a psychiatrist but the above was on the advice of MY Physciatrist and MY doctor, thank you very much.

Posted by: RabbitFurCoat Nov 10 2019, 10:58 AM

So many student debts must never get close to being repaid given the size of them, amount earning before starting being paid and interest, that they do seem pointless. I probably won't pay mine off and I graduated before the tuition fee hike so my debt is significantly smaller than people younger than me.

I was happy going to uni knowing it would cost be and aren't bothered by the money that leaves my salary each month, I'd be all for replacing them with a Graduate Tax - just seems to make far more sense to me.

Posted by: Tones and Iz Nov 10 2019, 10:59 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:50 AM) *
It's not a huge debt though, a few thousand. Many people owe that much to loan sharks and the amount students will pay back will only be a tiny fraction of what they earn over a few years. I had this argument with Rachel's friends last time they came as one's started on a fairly high income for a new graduate so has to start paying back straight away.


it is a huge debt. They will technically be in debt for the majority of their adult life. A debt they had to take on if they wanted to improve themselves and they were born past a certain cutoff point.

I used to be okay with it as 'just another tax' but the truth is it's a social mobility tax, that only the poorer will keep paying if they end up middingly successful. It is wrong and it should be wiped.

If society is going to make degrees a necessity for jobs then there needs to be a system by which all can access that.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 11:07 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 08:36 AM) *
Why should it be free though? Why shouldn't students have loans and pay back for their education when they start work? There choice to stay on in to further education. Seems fine to me. There's nothing for nothing in this world. That money can be used for other better services or housing or NHS.


Dedicating 3/4 years of your life to study is not something for nothing. We need people in higher education, doctors, lawyers, accountants.....various other degrees also that teach skills that can be applied to numerous jobs which are vital to society.

Its very easy and dare I say rich for you of all people to sit there and go on about "someehing for nothing".

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:14 AM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 10 2019, 10:57 AM) *
Do not get sh*tty with me. It was a genuine attempt to be nice. I know everybodys situation is different, but keeping myself busy and keeping my mind occupied helped me through the darkest period of my depression. No, I'm not a psychiatrist but the above was on the advice of MY Physciatrist and MY doctor, thank you very much.



Okay fine but everyone's different.

Posted by: T Boy Nov 10 2019, 01:49 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:50 AM) *
It's not a huge debt though, a few thousand. Many people owe that much to loan sharks and the amount students will pay back will only be a tiny fraction of what they earn over a few years. I had this argument with Rachel's friends last time they came as one's started on a fairly high income for a new graduate so has to start paying back straight away.


It’s a very substantial debt. In order to work in the job I wanted and am working in, I needed to do a degree and a PGCE so that was four years of fees and three of a maintenance loan (I was lucky to get a grant for my PGCE year and also lucky to have attended before the tuition fee hike and that I attended in Wales so the fees were subsidised by the Welsh government) and I have been working for over 8 years and am now earning over 40k a year but still, at 31, am a long way from clearing the debt. And I’ve even stated how lucky I was with a lot of it. Others, particularly those who have begun further education this decade, will have it much far worse than me and a lot are still waiting for a job that pays them enough to start paying it back. I found a job fairly quickly but that is not the norm.

There’ll be a lot of people who will never pay it back. My friend’s husband is in his mid 70s and actually began a masters because he knew he’d be dead before it all got paid back so who cares? So the whole thing as it is seems pretty pointless. I know I’ll pay mine off eventually but why should I have to when so many won’t? I don’t even think that the quality of the university experience is even worth all that money.

But since you don’t contribute ANYTHING AT ALL to the country, I’ll take whatever you say on this with a pinch of salt. Maybe if you one day decide to better yourself with further education, I might consider your opinion valid but you’ve done bugger all and paid nothing into our society for decades on end so I don’t see that happening any time soon.

Posted by: JüpaHulaHula Nov 10 2019, 01:55 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:50 AM) *
It's not a huge debt though, a few thousand. Many people owe that much to loan sharks and the amount students will pay back will only be a tiny fraction of what they earn over a few years. I had this argument with Rachel's friends last time they came as one's started on a fairly high income for a new graduate so has to start paying back straight away.


Its 50k.

Posted by: Oliver Nov 10 2019, 02:07 PM

University fees are completely pointless when barely anyone actually pays them back. I graduated 2012 with debts of £18,000; because of how much I earn and the disgusting interest rate on university loans I actually now owe closer to £19,000.

Fortunately after 25 years whatever I've not paid back will be wiped, but then it makes me think what the point of me paying £2 a month back is if it doesn't matter after 25 years? It doesn't effect my credit score in any way.

Posted by: Envoirment Nov 10 2019, 02:22 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:50 AM) *
It's not a huge debt though, a few thousand. Many people owe that much to loan sharks and the amount students will pay back will only be a tiny fraction of what they earn over a few years. I had this argument with Rachel's friends last time they came as one's started on a fairly high income for a new graduate so has to start paying back straight away.


Well that shows how much you pay attention to student loans. £9,000+/year for a minimum of 3 years (4 if you do a foundation year or a 4 year masters course). That's £27,000 minimum. Add on the ridiculous interest rates of 6.6%/month or whatever it is now and the debt easily increases into £40,000+. That's only the base student loan, not taking into account the extra money you can get loaned to help with living costs.

My student loan ended up being almost £50,000 once I got a job and started working. They charged ridiculous interest rates on it, so unless I'm earning huge amounts of money I will never pay it off. In fact most people will never pay off their student loan and the government will end up writing it off. So it begs the question, why charge for it in the first place if billions on student loans will get wiped? Plus when the loans get written off, it costs the government more due to the extremely high interest rates charged. So instead of them writing off £27,000 of my tuition fees, in 25 years when it comes to write it off that's going to end up being in the 6 figures quite easily I'd imagine unless things change.

If it was free, people would also have more disposable income to spend as they wouldn't have to pay anything back, which in turn would help the economy.




Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 02:50 PM

It´s a huge debt Chris. I was lucky to go to Uni the year before they tripled the fees, but both my sisters loans were in excess of 30,000. It will take them forever to pay it off and they are hard workers who do a lot of hours. One is a teacher and head of her department and the other is a midwife.

Once again, ranting on about something that you have no experience of based on something you´ve seen in the news or heard in the street.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 05:12 PM

QUOTE(T Boy @ Nov 10 2019, 01:49 PM) *
But since you don’t contribute ANYTHING AT ALL to the country, I’ll take whatever you say on this with a pinch of salt. Maybe if you one day decide to better yourself with further education, I might consider your opinion valid but you’ve done bugger all and paid nothing into our society for decades on end so I don’t see that happening any time soon.



I'll be 60 in January so I think further education for me would be a bit of a waste of time don't you?

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 05:14 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 10 2019, 02:50 PM) *
Once again, ranting on about something that you have no experience of based on something you´ve seen in the news or heard in the street.



I'm hardly ranting on as you put it. If people only discussed stuff that they have experience of there'd hardly be any discussion in this world. What about all the pub conversations going on every night? Not everyone has to experience something to discuss it.

Posted by: T Boy Nov 10 2019, 05:49 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 05:12 PM) *
I'll be 60 in January so I think further education for me would be a bit of a waste of time don't you?


Education is never a waste of time. In fact, people look forward to reaching retirement age because they will have more time to follow these interests. Like I said, I know a man in his 70s that has begun because why not? Learning shouldn’t just be about getting a job at the end of it, that’s such a misconception we have in this country.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 05:59 PM

QUOTE(Envoirment @ Nov 10 2019, 02:22 PM) *
Well that shows how much you pay attention to student loans. £9,000+/year for a minimum of 3 years (4 if you do a foundation year or a 4 year masters course). That's £27,000 minimum. Add on the ridiculous interest rates of 6.6%/month or whatever it is now and the debt easily increases into £40,000+. That's only the base student loan, not taking into account the extra money you can get loaned to help with living costs.



I do know the amounts as my daughter had it all to pay back but it was all written off as she died. Didn't realise the interest rates though. Actually thought it was interest free.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 08:15 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 05:14 PM) *
I'm hardly ranting on as you put it. If people only discussed stuff that they have experience of there'd hardly be any discussion in this world. What about all the pub conversations going on every night? Not everyone has to experience something to discuss it.


Of course you can have opinion and discuss whatever you want, but don´t be surprised when people who have had direct experience of something and know how it works struggle to give your view much credibility.

Don´t be taken aback when somebody has 30K debt to their name and you´re there saying "oh its not much money", that they may feel a bit y´know.....miffed?

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 08:17 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 05:12 PM) *
I'll be 60 in January so I think further education for me would be a bit of a waste of time don't you?



Um no...??? Never to old for opening your mind up to new ideas and spreading your horizons.

You might find it does you some good.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 08:22 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 10 2019, 08:17 PM) *
Um no...??? Never to old for opening your mind up to new ideas and spreading your horizons.

You might find it does you some good.



I have no time for house-work and dog-walking. Is there a degree in chart hits of the 70's?

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 09:01 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 08:22 PM) *
I have no time.


I find that hard to believe.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 10 2019, 09:02 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 08:22 PM) *
Is there a degree in chart hits of the 70's?



I don´t know. It´s been some time since I completed mine. There will be plenty of music related degrees though.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Nov 10 2019, 10:14 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 9 2019, 11:42 PM) *
We can't afford for it to be free though. We've elderly people and mentally ill teenagers in hospitals and mental hospitals as there are no places for them in the community. Plus sick and disabled are being found fit for work and having their benefits stopped due to cutbacks. The country has to tighten it's belt. Student loans are fine. If they want further education after 18 then lend them the money and let them pay it back. It's common sense.

Theres f***ing thousands of nominations for title of your stupidest post but this one absolutely landslides it

We can afford it to be free. Most places in Europe cope just fine. Scotland copes just fine.

The country doesn’t need to tighten its belt, its not a household. The country tightening its belt covers every single damn thing you mention in sentences 2 and 3. Nothing else. Austerity is 100% solely to blame.

You could do with some further education. You might learn, finally, that Tory ideology and “things that are in the best interests of the country” displayed as a Venn diagram are two circles with quite a lot of blank space between them

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 10:56 PM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 10 2019, 09:02 PM) *
I don´t know. It´s been some time since I completed mine. There will be plenty of music related degrees though.



My niece's best friend's dad is a lecturer in popular music. A degree in pop music? rolleyes.gif Must be the most Mickey Mouse degree ever. Waste of funding and three years.

Posted by: Calum Nov 10 2019, 11:03 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:56 PM) *
My niece's best friend's dad is a lecturer in popular music. A degree in pop music? rolleyes.gif Must be the most Mickey Mouse degree ever. Waste of funding and three years.

Oh piss off. I'm assuming you think that 'waste of funding' should instead be poured into the DWP so you can get a few more cans of cider a week?

From taking a look just now at just one university's prospectus for a degree in popular music, students can study the likes of music journalism, music management, business leadership, ethics, music in film, while at the same time gaining actual experience by performing at live venues. On top of that, universities also work with music labels so through this so-called Mickey Mouse degree, someone could find themselves with some decent contacts in the industry when they graduate.

But of course, what a massive waste of money. drama.gif

Posted by: JüpaHulaHula Nov 10 2019, 11:14 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:56 PM) *
My niece's best friend's dad is a lecturer in popular music. A degree in pop music? rolleyes.gif Must be the most Mickey Mouse degree ever. Waste of funding and three years.


Clearly at least one person is employed in it...

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:15 PM

We don't live in North Korea Calum and I'm entitled to my opinion. May be different to yours but hey-ho. Do you want us all to act like robots and think exactly the same about everything? rolleyes.gif

Haven't interacted much with you here and have no wish to as your first two sentences are so rude. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:17 PM

QUOTE(JüpaHulaHula @ Nov 10 2019, 11:14 PM) *
Clearly at least one person is employed in it...



Yeah his taste in bands leaves a lot to be desired too. Have never heard of most of them. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Calum Nov 10 2019, 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:15 PM) *
We don't live in North Korea Calum and I'm entitled to my opinion. May be different to yours but hey -ho.

Ahh, when in doubt resort to the standard Chris response of: "you may be right, but I don't arm myself with any facts whatsoever or educate myself before I make flippant comments on things I have absolutely no idea about, so instead say that I'm entitled to an opinion and nothing else".

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Calum @ Nov 10 2019, 11:03 PM) *
Oh piss off. I'm assuming you think that 'waste of funding' should instead be poured into the DWP so you can get a few more cans of cider a week?



I would think most students drink far more alcohol than me in a week.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:22 PM

QUOTE(Calum @ Nov 10 2019, 11:20 PM) *
Ahh, when in doubt resort to the standard Chris response of: "you may be right, but I don't arm myself with any facts whatsoever or educate myself before I make flippant comments on things I have absolutely no idea about, so instead say that I'm entitled to an opinion and nothing else".



I do know a bit about students as my late daughter was one. I fail to see what's wrong with lending them the money and they pay it back gradually when they start work. Had this argument with my daughter's friends the other week and one girl left as she lost the argument. She said "I'm going Chris, before I say something about your lifestyle that I'll regret and wouldn't be fair to Rachel" rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Calum Nov 10 2019, 11:27 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:22 PM) *
I do know a bit about students as my late daughter was one.

I'm not talking about students though, am I? unsure.gif I'm talking about a degree in popular music. Do you read posts before trolling?

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:29 PM

QUOTE(Calum @ Nov 10 2019, 11:27 PM) *
I'm not talking about students though, am I? unsure.gif I'm talking about a degree in popular music. Do you read posts before trolling?



Yes I do. So what in your mind is a so-called Mickey Mouse degree then?

I thought my daughter took the wrong degree and told her so. Where would English Lit and Journalism have got her? She got a 2:1 but had no job 7 months later but some of her friends had them. It's all about Accounting or the Sciences these days.

Posted by: coi Nov 10 2019, 11:31 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:29 PM) *
Yes I do. So what in your mind is a so-called Mickey Mouse degree then?

I thought my daughter took the wrong degree and told her so. Where would English Lit and Journalism have got her? It's all about Accounting or the Sciences these days.

Journalism could get you into, I don't know, being a journalist?

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:34 PM

QUOTE(coi @ Nov 10 2019, 11:31 PM) *
Journalism could get you into, I don't know, being a journalist?


Yeah but very hard to get in to unless you know someone. Wife's employer's friend knows the boss at Sky News and Kay Burley but Rachel didn't want any favouritism. Her best friend did Maths at Oxford and has a good job now. Good pay and grumbles she's starting to pay her student loan straight away. Gave her a few verbal life lessons but she wasn't too impressed. They do say the truth often hurts. biggrin.gif

Posted by: coi Nov 10 2019, 11:35 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:34 PM) *
Yeah but very hard to9 get in to. Her best friend did Maths at Oxford and has a good job now. Good pay and grumbles she's starting to pay her student loan straight away. Gave her a few verbal life lessons but she wasn't too impressed.

It's not too difficult to get into, loads of local newspapers offer jobs in it for a start.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(coi @ Nov 10 2019, 11:35 PM) *
It's not too difficult to get into, loads of local newspapers offer jobs in it for a start.


Well we'll never know now, sadly. sad.gif She was taking a year off to travel. I told her she'd had 3 years off already at uni. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Calum Nov 10 2019, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:29 PM) *
Yes I do. So what in your mind is a so-called Mickey Mouse degree then?

I thought my daughter took the wrong degree and told her so. Where would English Lit and Journalism have got her? She got a 2:1 but had no job 7 months later but some of her friends had them. It's all about Accounting or the Sciences these days.

No degree is a "Mickey Mouse degree" - if somebody is out there at university actually learning, putting that into practice and getting what they want out of it, then they're doing a great deal better than anybody who sits at a computer all day feeding on Conservative propaganda, fake news and scotch eggs.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 10 2019, 11:38 PM

QUOTE(Calum @ Nov 10 2019, 11:37 PM) *
No degree is a "Mickey Mouse degree" - if somebody is out there at university actually learning, putting that into practice and getting what they want out of it, then they're doing a great deal better than anybody who sits at a computer all day feeding on Conservative propaganda, fake news and scotch eggs.



Yes I agree with all that. Scotch eggs aren't healthy at all. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Chez Wombat Nov 10 2019, 11:53 PM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:29 PM) *
Yes I do. So what in your mind is a so-called Mickey Mouse degree then?

I thought my daughter took the wrong degree and told her so. Where would English Lit and Journalism have got her? She got a 2:1 but had no job 7 months later but some of her friends had them. It's all about Accounting or the Sciences these days.


You're right, I really can't think of any job where reading and writing skills would be important, who even needs skills like that?

Was wondering how long it would take before 'Mickey Mouse degree' was mentioned *.* Classic.

Posted by: JüpaHulaHula Nov 11 2019, 01:31 AM

Imagine having all the time in the world to educate yourself and offer something to the world and instead spending the majority of your time online insulting people who have worked their arses off to gain skills to then go out into the world and do some good work while also paying their taxes to fund the services that others in society make use of. Imagine being so spiteful to jump straight to that without even using the resource at your fingertips to do some basic fact checking before jumping straight to the conclusion that all students must just be lazy, stupid drunks.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 11 2019, 01:40 AM

QUOTE(JüpaHulaHula @ Nov 11 2019, 01:31 AM) *
Imagine having all the time in the world to educate yourself and offer something to the world and instead spending the majority of your time online insulting people who have worked their arses off to gain skills to then go out into the world and do some good work while also paying their taxes to fund the services that others in society make use of. Imagine being so spiteful to jump straight to that without even using the resource at your fingertips to do some basic fact checking before jumping straight to the conclusion that all students must just be lazy, stupid drunks.


I know right? It sounds like someone we know. laugh.gif



Posted by: mald487 Nov 11 2019, 01:44 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:34 PM) *
Gave her a few verbal life lessons biggrin.gif


What life lessons could you possibly give someone? How to live off of other peoples hard earned money for 40 years and drown yourself in cider?

Your hardly an aspirational figure by any stretch of the imagination. Whatever comes out of your mouth should be taken with a pinch of salt at best.

Posted by: vidcapper Nov 11 2019, 05:58 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 08:22 PM) *
I have no time for house-work and dog-walking. Is there a degree in chart hits of the 70's?


I would be surprised, given the variety of bizarre degree courses out there... laugh.gif


QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Nov 10 2019, 10:14 PM) *
Theres f***ing thousands of nominations for title of your stupidest post but this one absolutely landslides it

We can afford it to be free. Most places in Europe cope just fine. Scotland copes just fine.


Err... you do realize that nothing is 'free' - it all has to be paid by taxpayers. rolleyes.gif Also, since that burden would inevitably fall mostly on those who've long since finished their education, and often didn't have equivalent opportunities when they were young, it's hardly surprising they'd resent the idea of paying for something they'd get no benefit from!

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 11 2019, 07:14 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 11 2019, 05:58 AM) *
I would be surprised, given the variety of bizarre degree courses out there... laugh.gif
Err... you do realize that nothing is 'free' - it all has to be paid by taxpayers. rolleyes.gif Also, since that burden would inevitably fall mostly on those who've long since finished their education, and often didn't have equivalent opportunities when they were young, it's hardly surprising they'd resent the idea of paying for something they'd get no benefit from!



Spot on Vid. As soon as I'd got in to bed last night I thought well it wouldn't be free like they're all saying but funded by the taxpayers!

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 11 2019, 07:17 AM

QUOTE(mald487 @ Nov 11 2019, 01:44 AM) *
What life lessons could you possibly give someone?
Your hardly an aspirational figure by any stretch of the imagination. Whatever comes out of your mouth should be taken with a pinch of salt at best.



I told her not to moan about having to start to pay her student loan back straight away but be glad she's got a good job straight after Uni on a high enough income to be starting paying it back.

Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner Nov 11 2019, 07:38 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 11 2019, 05:58 AM) *
Err... you do realize that nothing is 'free' - it all has to be paid by taxpayers. rolleyes.gif Also, since that burden would inevitably fall mostly on those who've long since finished their education, and often didn't have equivalent opportunities when they were young, it's hardly surprising they'd resent the idea of paying for something they'd get no benefit from!

No shit Sherlock. I put my “free at the point of use” degree in Accounting & Finance to good use and work in Tax for a Big4 firm. I have a fairly good grasp of how taxation works thanks.


Many who have long since finished had far better opportunities with bursaries and no tuition fees and no stealth graduate taxes either. Bitching and moaning about being asked not to pull the ladder up behind them is absolutely peak boomer.

“Free at the Point of use” education is important for social mobility. Year on year more and more people from the most deprived areas in Scotland have the opportunity to go to university. Our services based economy needs well educated graduates to keep growing and given that statistically a graduate earns more over their working life the investment is paid back to the public purse through increased tax take in the long run

It’s a similar concept to funding childcare. It’s expensive but it allows the parent (often the mother) to return to work when they otherwise would be unable to. The cash comes back through increased participation in the Labour market and thus taxation.

Posted by: Freddie Kruger Nov 11 2019, 08:02 AM

DELETED.

Posted by: T Boy Nov 11 2019, 05:53 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 11 2019, 05:58 AM) *
I would be surprised, given the variety of bizarre degree courses out there... laugh.gif
Err... you do realize that nothing is 'free' - it all has to be paid by taxpayers. rolleyes.gif Also, since that burden would inevitably fall mostly on those who've long since finished their education, and often didn't have equivalent opportunities when they were young, it's hardly surprising they'd resent the idea of paying for something they'd get no benefit from!


You still could benefit from it though, it’s never too late to learn. You and Chris seem to be pretty grumpy over the fact you didn’t go and quite jealous of people that have made use of the opportunity.

As it is, people your age were able to go to university without landing in thousands and thousand of pounds worth of debt.

Posted by: Envoirment Nov 11 2019, 06:22 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 11 2019, 05:58 AM) *
I would be surprised, given the variety of bizarre degree courses out there... laugh.gif
Err... you do realize that nothing is 'free' - it all has to be paid by taxpayers. rolleyes.gif Also, since that burden would inevitably fall mostly on those who've long since finished their education, and often didn't have equivalent opportunities when they were young, it's hardly surprising they'd resent the idea of paying for something they'd get no benefit from!


They would indirectly and directly benefit though. Making university education free will likely increase the amount of people that go into vital roles such as teachers, nurses, doctors etc. The NHS has a massive need of new nurses and doctors. Nurses in particular- the government cut the nursing bursary and the amount of people applying/training to be a nurse fell dramatically in the years to follow. There's also the sciences, in which those studying science subjects could go on to creating new treatments for various diseases, both human and animal. I believe there's also a shortage of vets in the UK - so those who have pets would benefit as it's likely more people would take up a veterinary degree. There are likely a lot of other examples I could give, but I'll leave it at that for now.

It would be beneficial for the future to have a highly educated work force as well, as automation and digitalisation become ever more prevalent.

Posted by: Jacob :O Nov 27 2019, 03:00 AM

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 10:56 PM) *
My niece's best friend's dad is a lecturer in popular music. A degree in pop music? rolleyes.gif Must be the most Mickey Mouse degree ever. Waste of funding and three years.
Can I just say because I only just saw this.

f*** you.

Posted by: Jacob :O Nov 27 2019, 03:57 AM

Oh in case it wasn't clear, I took Popular Music.

You wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds on the my degree, we wrote academic essays like any honours course (including a dissertation), learned how to better write, perform, record, produce, and market- not to mention the contacts we made while there. The music industry is huge, worth BILLIONS to the economy. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've recently graduated, had several interviews in my industry so the opportunities are there, I specialised in technology and marketing. For some reason if you take "Music" it's fine but the moment you specialise in anything relating to the modern industry (pop, technology, production) it's a complete waste of time to Daily Mail reading neanderthals.

If you'd like me to forward you any material please let me know because I'm dying to get your thoughts on my former reading material. rolleyes.gif

The absolute f***ing irony from a self professed charts/ music fan. It's doublethink, cognitive dissonance. On the one hand the industry has value to you and you clearly enjoy its output but on the other you think learning about it with the intention of working in it is an abject waste of time and money.

I'm sure you'll say "well you don't need a degree to work in the music industry", quite, but it's INCREDIBLY difficult to access it otherwise. If you do have one you're going to understand the industry 100x better, be far less likely to be taken advantage of (we dissected legal contracts for example), develop critical thinking skills among many other attributes that I simply don't have time to list. It will also put you far ahead of competitors on paper, you need a degree these days to be taken seriously in most areas of work.

It's unbelievable by the way, it feels like you just observe life, you don't DO anything. You don't participate or contribute to society in any way yet you cast judgement down on anyone trying to make something of themselves if they don't quite happen to fit your narrow 1970s world view, you just come across bitter.

Have some god damn humility, your opinion isn't inherently worth anything if it's backed up by nothing but your gut feeling. There's no evidence, nothing credible, just knee jerk reactions. You see the world as a binary, you've even said in this thread "This isn't North Korea, everyone else has the same opinions but me. I'm allowed to have my own opinions." as if you're the brave defender of 'your side' and everyone else is just part of the brainwashed authoritarian masses of 'the other side'.
Not everyone else is on the same page by the way, there CAN be more than two perspectives on every topic but that aside let's just be clear, you're barely putting forward opinions, just vague thoughts and parroted segments from things you've seen and heard. Lots of people do agree with you, you're not unique in being ignorant in any given topic. "A little learning is a dangerous thing." (Pope, 1711)

It's okay by the way to admit you don't have a lot of knowledge about something but pretending you do isn't impressive. That is why people are so strongly disagreeing with you, you don't put forward a serious argument, just usually a sarcastic comment or a half baked statement that can't be backed up.

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Nov 10 2019, 11:29 PM) *
I thought my daughter took the wrong degree and told her so. Where would English Lit and Journalism have got her? She got a 2:1 but had no job 7 months later but some of her friends had them. It's all about Accounting or the Sciences these days.
Took someone I know a year to get his first job after his Physics degree. Ended up being in a more Maths/ Coding based sector anyway.

Like I said early in this thread, transferable skills. If even English is a waste of time to you I really don't know if there's any hope for you.

Posted by: mald487 Nov 27 2019, 05:02 PM

QUOTE(Jacob :O @ Nov 27 2019, 03:57 AM) *
Oh in case it wasn't clear, I took Popular Music.

You wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds on the my degree, we wrote academic essays like any honours course (including a dissertation), learned how to better write, perform, record, produce, and market- not to mention the contacts we made while there. The music industry is huge, worth BILLIONS to the economy. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've recently graduated, had several interviews in my industry so the opportunities are there, I specialised in technology and marketing. For some reason if you take "Music" it's fine but the moment you specialise in anything relating to the modern industry (pop, technology, production) it's a complete waste of time to Daily Mail reading neanderthals.

If you'd like me to forward you any material please let me know because I'm dying to get your thoughts on my former reading material. rolleyes.gif

The absolute f***ing irony from a self professed charts/ music fan. It's doublethink, cognitive dissonance. On the one hand the industry has value to you and you clearly enjoy its output but on the other you think learning about it with the intention of working in it is an abject waste of time and money.

I'm sure you'll say "well you don't need a degree to work in the music industry", quite, but it's INCREDIBLY difficult to access it otherwise. If you do have one you're going to understand the industry 100x better, be far less likely to be taken advantage of (we dissected legal contracts for example), develop critical thinking skills among many other attributes that I simply don't have time to list. It will also put you far ahead of competitors on paper, you need a degree these days to be taken seriously in most areas of work.

It's unbelievable by the way, it feels like you just observe life, you don't DO anything. You don't participate or contribute to society in any way yet you cast judgement down on anyone trying to make something of themselves if they don't quite happen to fit your narrow 1970s world view, you just come across bitter.

Have some god damn humility, your opinion isn't inherently worth anything if it's backed up by nothing but your gut feeling. There's no evidence, nothing credible, just knee jerk reactions. You see the world as a binary, you've even said in this thread "This isn't North Korea, everyone else has the same opinions but me. I'm allowed to have my own opinions." as if you're the brave defender of 'your side' and everyone else is just part of the brainwashed authoritarian masses of 'the other side'.
Not everyone else is on the same page by the way, there CAN be more than two perspectives on every topic but that aside let's just be clear, you're barely putting forward opinions, just vague thoughts and parroted segments from things you've seen and heard. Lots of people do agree with you, you're not unique in being ignorant in any given topic. "A little learning is a dangerous thing." (Pope, 1711)

It's okay by the way to admit you don't have a lot of knowledge about something but pretending you do isn't impressive. That is why people are so strongly disagreeing with you, you don't put forward a serious argument, just usually a sarcastic comment or a half baked statement that can't be backed up.
Took someone I know a year to get his first job after his Physics degree. Ended up being in a more Maths/ Coding based sector anyway.

Like I said early in this thread, transferable skills. If even English is a waste of time to you I really don't know if there's any hope for you.


yahoo.gif yahoo.gif yahoo.gif

Posted by: common sense Nov 28 2019, 07:16 PM

QUOTE(Jacob :O @ Nov 27 2019, 03:00 AM) *
Can I just say because I only just saw this.

f*** you.



LOL. Only just seen this. biggrin.gif

Posted by: common sense Nov 28 2019, 07:21 PM


I don't think English is a waste of time really. Sadly we'll never know what job my late daughter would get. sad.gif

I did upset my cousin once as she's an English teacher and I said I thought Shakespeare is very overrated. Well I do and can have my opinion.


Yes you hit the nail on the head. I am very bitter that I've had this depression all my adult life and had to scrape by on benefits and not realise my full potential. sad.gif

Posted by: common sense Nov 28 2019, 07:27 PM

QUOTE(Jacob :O @ Nov 27 2019, 03:57 AM) *
Like I said early in this thread, transferable skills. If even English is a waste of time to you I really don't know if there's any hope for you.



Well I'm almost 60 so doubt I'll ever work again.

Posted by: T Boy Nov 28 2019, 07:42 PM

QUOTE(common sense @ Nov 28 2019, 07:21 PM) *
I don't think English is a waste of time really. Sadly we'll never know what job my late daughter would get. sad.gif

I did upset my cousin once as she's an English teacher and I said I thought Shakespeare is very overrated. Well I do and can have my opinion.
Yes you hit the nail on the head. I am very bitter that I've had this depression all my adult life and had to scrape by on benefits and not realise my full potential. sad.gif


You haven’t had to do any of that because you could always have worked. Given the chance, it might have helped your depression.

Posted by: Suedehead2 Nov 28 2019, 08:47 PM

QUOTE(common sense @ Nov 28 2019, 07:21 PM) *
I don't think English is a waste of time really. Sadly we'll never know what job my late daughter would get. sad.gif

I did upset my cousin once as she's an English teacher and I said I thought Shakespeare is very overrated. Well I do and can have my opinion.

That just reinforces what other people have been saying. Let's face it, most of us didn't particularly enjoy studying Shakespeare at school. I certainly didn't. However, I have allowed myself to rethink my opinion over the ensuing 40+ years.

First, recognise the fact that Shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed, not pored over in a classroom. Then, start looking at culture in general. Look at how many phrases still in use today were invented by him. Look at the number of book titles that are phrases from Shakespeare. He must have been doing something right if that is still happening 400 years after he died.

Look at the number of film adaptations (either direct or indirect) of his plays. Look at how many people want to adapt them for different settings. Again, doesn't that suggest he might have been quite good at what he did?

Posted by: T Boy Nov 28 2019, 09:01 PM

QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 28 2019, 08:47 PM) *
That just reinforces what other people have been saying. Let's face it, most of us didn't particularly enjoy studying Shakespeare at school. I certainly didn't. However, I have allowed myself to rethink my opinion over the ensuing 40+ years.

First, recognise the fact that Shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed, not pored over in a classroom. Then, start looking at culture in general. Look at how many phrases still in use today were invented by him. Look at the number of book titles that are phrases from Shakespeare. He must have been doing something right if that is still happening 400 years after he died.

Look at the number of film adaptations (either direct or indirect) of his plays. Look at how many people want to adapt them for different settings. Again, doesn't that suggest he might have been quite good at what he did?


This is so important. I couldn’t have cared less about Shakespeare when studying in English but it really clicked with me after I performed in two Shakespeare plays myself and since then I’ve loved to go and watch his plays performed.

Posted by: Big Boobs Vjay! Nov 28 2019, 09:19 PM

Have you watched and read a good number? No? Have you looked at them in depth? Noo? Then your opinion is meaningless.

Posted by: common sense Nov 28 2019, 09:46 PM

QUOTE(Big Boobs Vjay! @ Nov 28 2019, 09:19 PM) *
Have you watched and read a good number? No? Have you looked at them in depth? Noo? Then your opinion is meaningless.



Fine. I bow to the superior knowledge of others. smile.gif

Posted by: Doctor Bitch Nov 29 2019, 01:10 AM

I firmly believe that all Further Education at University should be free (as it once was, and currently is in forward thinking countries like Germany) because ultimately it benefits the whole of society to have a highly skilled and educated workforce, with those who become students going on ultimately to deliver much more in benefits to the wider community than the cost to the state through subsidising their FE. Whilst the fees brought in by Labour in the late 1990s and increased by over 9 times since have not dissuaded large numbers of potential young students it has crippled the numbers of mature students and really hammered those in work who hoped to up-skill or just develop further in their current career- that is really damaging and may be what is driving the increasing skill shortages in the UK workforce. I believe that a good mix is paramount to a successful university and these universities also drive innovation through research advancing technology, ultimately benefiting wider the economy, as well as attracting global talent to the UK. I know that what we currently have in place is a defacto 'Graduate Tax' but debts are so huge now and interest rates extortionate that some graduates aren't paying anything back other than accrued interest and most of this massive escalating debt will be written off at some point, rendering the point of the fees NULL.

Posted by: vidcapper Nov 29 2019, 05:49 AM

QUOTE(common sense @ Nov 28 2019, 09:46 PM) *
Fine. I bow to the superior knowledge of others. smile.gif


A phrase I cannot imagine BBV ever saying. teresa.gif

Posted by: common sense Nov 29 2019, 04:33 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 29 2019, 05:49 AM) *
A phrase I cannot imagine BBV ever saying. teresa.gif



No me neither now I come to think of it. smile.gif

Posted by: T Boy Nov 29 2019, 06:11 PM

QUOTE(common sense @ Nov 28 2019, 09:46 PM) *
Fine. I bow to the superior knowledge of others. smile.gif


Finally!

Posted by: Big Boobs Vjay! Nov 29 2019, 08:03 PM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 29 2019, 05:49 AM) *
A phrase I cannot imagine BBV ever saying. teresa.gif


I don't agree with bowing and social hierarchies, but I have deferred to more knowledgeable people many times.

Posted by: vidcapper Nov 30 2019, 05:56 AM

QUOTE(Big Boobs Vjay! @ Nov 29 2019, 08:03 PM) *
I don't agree with bowing and social hierarchies, but I have deferred to more knowledgeable people many times.


Marx, Lenin, Stalin perhaps? teresa.gif

Posted by: common sense Nov 30 2019, 08:25 AM

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Nov 30 2019, 05:56 AM) *
Marx, Lenin, Stalin perhaps? teresa.gif



....You forgot Corbyn Vid. biggrin.gif

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