BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ Brexit: auf wiedersehen.. ?
Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th October 2019, 10:25 PM
Continue that exciting Brexit chat here as we count down to the WA2.0 debate on Saturday.
Latest projection from the FT:
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 17th October 2019, 10:25 PM
Lib-Dem Norman Lamb, who is not standing at the next election, has said he'll back the deal.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 17th October 2019, 10:27 PM
What a joke! They votes against Mad May's 3x just to torpedo her and put one of their posh boys in charge instead! Atrocious deal.
If that joke of a deal passes, then not only are Labour turning the country into a PERMANENT Tory one party state for the next 20 years at least, but it will be far hardar to rejoin. Those Tory shetbags won't run a second referendum, no matter how bad it gets for the average man.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th October 2019, 10:28 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:25 PM)
Lib-Dem Norman Lamb, who is not standing at the next election, has said he'll back the deal.
Yes, he's included in the numbers up there. As are the 7 Labour MPs already confirmed to be backing the deal.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 17th October 2019, 10:30 PM
The most interesting thing about those projections - I've learned that Change UK is still going under a new name. No idea why they're still bothering though. Is the 1 Lib Dem MP in that projection the one who resigned the whip to vote for May's original deal, or someone else?
*edit* - oh, it's Sheepie.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th October 2019, 10:31 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:12 PM)
The Scots are annoying me on QT. "We didn't vote for this" Excuse me but Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and in 2016 the UK AS A WHOLE voted to Leave the EU. So tough.
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.
You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:16 PM)
The good news is: if this Tory shit passes, we can all move to an indeoendent Scotland. It's still the same island. The culture's basically the same. The cities and towns and countryside look familiar to anyone in the north east/ Cumbria, so it wouldn't even be that big of a change.
Except the accent and language is very different!
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:18 PM)
Last time the Scots wanted to stay in the UK and may still do next time.
Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 17th October 2019, 10:34 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 11:31 PM)
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.
You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue Except the accent and language is very different! Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England
I honestlt kept thinking I was hearing prople from me city when I was last in Scotland It sounded almost identical if I wasn't paying attention. Scotland's the best part of the country, excepr for Oxford and Cambridge, so remainers get to keep the best bit.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th October 2019, 10:36 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:34 PM)
I honestlt kept thinking I was hearing prople from me city when I was last in Scotland It sounded almost identical if I wasn't paying attention. Scotland's the best part of the country, excepr for Oxford and Cambridge, so remainers get to keep the best bit.
Get yourself a hearing test at specsavers Michael!! Not even Berwick-upon-Tweed has an accent close to the Scottish accents. Never mind the ones deeper into Geordieland!!
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 17th October 2019, 10:37 PM
Did that troll actually just say that?!
No one voted for this shit deal. Scotland, a COUNTRY, voted to remain. It was 2 v 2. The end. They are in the right. Go bonnie Scotland! Time for Caledonian Antisyzygy to come to an end. Time for independence, and all the polls are backing it already. Imagine after brexshit!
I'm just at how sneaky and slimy the Tories are, supporting one deal over a better one based on who is presenting it. Vile.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 17th October 2019, 10:43 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:37 PM)
I'm just at how sneaky and slimy the Tories are, supporting one deal over a better one based on who is presenting it. Vile.
Indeed, or how quickly they can just brush over this:
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 17th October 2019, 10:46 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 17 2019, 11:43 PM)
Indeed, or how quickly they can just brush over this:
If we had an actually non-biased media, things like him would never, ever get elected.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 17th October 2019, 10:47 PM
The silver lining to this absolute horror show is that the insanity of the VAT regime is going to provide a good decade of work for me and my colleagues in Indirect Tax Consulting.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 17th October 2019, 10:49 PM
Also, if I got PURGED from my party by a jumped up unelected beaurocrat through his useful idiot, I would do them NO favours with any votes. Tories are so weak!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 17th October 2019, 10:53 PM
Won't be posting tomorrow. You deserve a break from me. Am sure Michael can post for both of us.
Posted by: Steve201 18th October 2019, 12:21 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 11:31 PM)
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.
You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue Except the accent and language is very different! Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England
I agree with all you say but wasn't the referendum declared in 2013 (if DC won an election)? Before the Scottish referendum!?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2019, 12:38 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Oct 18 2019, 01:21 AM)
I agree with all you say but wasn't the referendum declared in 2013 (if DC won an election)? Before the Scottish referendum!?
Yeah it was before and the SNP did make plenty of references to it but all the unionists denied it would happen, denied we’d ever leave, denied there could ever be a circumstance where Scotland voted remain and we left because of England. EU membership was one of the big big vote killers for Yes last time because the unionist line was parroted by the media (remembering all but the Sunday Herald was pro-No) and by the No campaign at every single opportunity. It was effective. There’s countless quotes and clips of “The only way to remove Scotland’s EU membership is to vote Yes”
And here we are. Fundamental change in circumstances and the electorate was lied to. We should get another say. Clearly Scotland and England want different futures, why tie each other down? Oh yeah! Our oil.
Posted by: Envoirment 18th October 2019, 02:02 AM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 17 2019, 11:25 PM)
Continue that exciting Brexit chat here as we count down to the WA2.0 debate on Saturday.
Latest projection from the FT:
How accurate is the FT? Given how close it looks, I doubt it gets through. Particularly as it assumes almost 100% of conservative MPs (independent or not) supporting it. Saturday is going to be a long day, but potentially game changing as well.
Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2019, 06:00 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 08:59 PM)
You’re less than a year away from a successful vote for Scotland repealing the Act of Union and re-establishing itself as an independent European nation
Aren't you jumping the gun a bit?
Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2019, 06:04 AM
Going back to Queef's idea of 3-1 country approval for brexit - should London also remain in because they voted strongly against Brexit - after all, its population is roughly the same as Scotland's?
Or for that matter, why not decide whether to Remain or Leave on an individual constituency basis?
Posted by: Tones and Iz 18th October 2019, 06:16 AM
Think about why people are making these suggestions. We’ve never had a vote before that forcibly stripped half the country of rights they would have rather kept. I think it’s really rather callous to laugh about it.
Freedom of movement is no joke, it’s so much better on expatriated workers than a long and stressful visa process. The EU arrangement we had was no joke, it was the best any country ever had. Once we leave and things turn out bad, it will be very unlikely we will ever get such a good deal back.
Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2019, 06:33 AM
QUOTE(Tones and Iz @ Oct 18 2019, 07:16 AM)
Think about why people are making these suggestions. We’ve never had a vote before that forcibly stripped half the country of rights they would have rather kept. I think it’s really rather callous to laugh about it.
We had a free & fair vote - would it have been any different for almost half the country to be forced to stay in an institution against their will?
Posted by: Tones and Iz 18th October 2019, 06:38 AM
They lose no rights by staying in.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 07:31 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 07:33 AM)
We had a free & fair vote - would it have been any different for almost half the country to be forced to stay in an institution against their will?
Leave campaigned on the idea that we would get the best ever deal and leaving would be easy. This deal is not it.
A slim win should not result in a hard Brexit. Would you have been happy if Remain won with 52% and then adopted the Euro and Schengen? Of course not. There has been no understanding or compromise for essentially half of the country. So, no, it’s not funny.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 07:35 AM
The deal, if it passes, will only do so due to fatigue.
Insane, really. The notion of getting it done and moving on is ridiculous when this deal all but confirms the Brexit conversation is here for years to come. It’s just the beginning.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 07:43 AM
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2019, 07:45 AM
Oh no everyone in the UK would continue to have amazing employment protections, world leading food and product safety standards and a charter of rights as protected by the ECHR. What a horrid thing to wake up to
Absolute f***ing melt
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2019, 07:47 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:43 AM)
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.
There’s a team of people at SNP HQ popping champagne over these quotes. The campaign materials are just writing themselves
Posted by: Steve201 18th October 2019, 08:02 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 18 2019, 01:38 AM)
Yeah it was before and the SNP did make plenty of references to it but all the unionists denied it would happen, denied we’d ever leave, denied there could ever be a circumstance where Scotland voted remain and we left because of England. EU membership was one of the big big vote killers for Yes last time because the unionist line was parroted by the media (remembering all but the Sunday Herald was pro-No) and by the No campaign at every single opportunity. It was effective. There’s countless quotes and clips of “The only way to remove Scotland’s EU membership is to vote Yes”
And here we are. Fundamental change in circumstances and the electorate was lied to. We should get another say. Clearly Scotland and England want different futures, why tie each other down? Oh yeah! Our oil.
Exactly, Ireland is the same but we knew the union was an unequal partnership more than 100 years ago, that's what famine and mass emigration do to your politics.
Posted by: Steve201 18th October 2019, 08:05 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 07:04 AM)
Going back to Queef's idea of 3-1 country approval for brexit - should London also remain in because they voted strongly against Brexit - after all, its population is roughly the same as Scotland's?
Or for that matter, why not decide whether to Remain or Leave on an individual constituency basis?
Surely Londons populations is many times more than Scotlands??
Posted by: Doctor Blind 18th October 2019, 08:08 AM
Posted by: vidcapper 18th October 2019, 08:59 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:31 AM)
Leave campaigned on the idea that we would get the best ever deal and leaving would be easy. This deal is not it.
So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 09:34 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:43 AM)
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.
I was about to post exactly the same thing - including the bit about how you couldn't make it up. Naturally, Raab won't put himself in a position where he might be asked some awkward questions about this statement. Similarly, the press won't highlight the utter hypocrisy of the man.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 09:45 AM
Susie Dent's word of the day is bayard. It is defined as someone with an unshakeable self-confidence that is rooted in ignorance. I wonder if she had anyone in mind.
Posted by: mald487 18th October 2019, 09:52 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 08:59 AM)
So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that.
Any sensible person/persons that were negotiating would have been open to compromise from the start rather than drawing lines in the sand and expecting a bloc of 27 to bend over and give the world to one outgoing member.
The f*** awful situation we are in now, and the even worse situation we may be in after tomorrow is entirely down to wreckless behaviour on our governments part. The opposite of sensible.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 10:20 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 09:59 AM)
So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that.
It's not sensible, and you know that.
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:31 AM)
A slim win should not result in a hard Brexit. Would you have been happy if Remain won with 52% and then adopted the Euro and Schengen?
Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin 18th October 2019, 10:26 AM
Brexiteers: you gain nothing but a sense of superiority.
Its the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
'Sovereignity!' 'Make our own laws!' these are all just buzzwords that mean f all. The UK is not self sufficient and the world operates under a global economy.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 10:29 AM
This doesn't stop no-deal.
I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal pass, and then the government wasting the next year negotiating a free trade agreement but failing (they take longer than a year even with a competent government) and defaulting us into no-deal in January 2021.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2019, 10:31 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Oct 18 2019, 09:05 AM)
Surely Londons populations is many times more than Scotlands??
8.2m vs 5.5m. So about 50% larger.
Scotland has the landmass to support sufficient food production, a truly scary % of the whole of the UKs fresh water supply, produces more power from wind than it can use (before we even think about Hydro, Biomass, Nuclear or fossil fuel) and billions in untapped black gold reserves. Population does not a country make.
As an independent nation, Scotland would be around the 115th most populous in the world. Next to Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Norway, New Zealand and a divided RoI. No one is suggesting these countries can’t be independent or support themselves and none of them (bar our siblings Norway) have the same level of natural resources that we do.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 11:00 AM
"We would be damaging the fabric of the Union with regulatory checks and even customs controls between Great Britain and Northern Ireland on top of those extra regulatory checks down the Irish Sea that are already envisaged in the withdrawal agreement"
Who said that? Someone remind me. Vidcapper, can you remember?
And no way is a brexshitter here defending COMPROMISE after screaming 52% is enough for a hard brexshit!! Lord irony just sweeps over their heads.
Posted by: Klaus 18th October 2019, 11:52 AM
So less than 5% of the deal has been renegotiated but, if it passes, of course we know who gets all the glory
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 12:00 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 18 2019, 12:52 PM)
So less than 5% of the deal has been renegotiated but, if it passes, of course we know who gets all the glory
Not quite a renegotiation either — he just said yes to what Theresa May had already turned down. But she was the weak one.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 12:11 PM
And yet people like common sense are falling over themselves to praise him He is easily the weakest prime minister we've ever had. Churchill? Pfft. He's one out. He's a Chamberlain, but much worse and far far more corrupt.
Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin 18th October 2019, 12:16 PM
Hes a man and if he's shitty so what. He validates people who are shitty.
He's the pinnacle of low effort winning and that's the kind of people he validates. Harsh but true.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 18th October 2019, 01:23 PM
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.
Will have to see if Labour imposes a 3-line whip to stop its northern MPs supporting the deal. It would be win/win-win for Corbyn if that's the case - if the deal fails, he'll get the credit. If it passes, then he gets to kick out those less loyal to him, plus he gets UK out of the EU, which we all know he secretly supports.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 01:31 PM
I just don't understand why they are supportong a worse deal just necause it's presented by an authoritarian man! Any Labou4 mp that votes for it needs to be kicked out immediately.
So say this failure of a surrender deal passes. Could Bojo then say other negotiations down the line have failed and default on a no deal, which is what his backers want?
Posted by: Brett-Butler 18th October 2019, 01:36 PM
I've been saying it since before the referendum and occasionally since then - people are not as rational as they believe themselves to be, and it doesn't take much to nudge someone in your direction. And if you think that you're completely free of irrational decision making, then you are a liar. I know I'm prone to it.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 18th October 2019, 01:39 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 02:23 PM)
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.
Of course the banter if it gets over the line by 1 vote will be that Norman Lamb, a Liberal Democrat, effectively provided that 1 vote.
Good luck Jo Swinson selling that on the doorstep.
Posted by: Envoirment 18th October 2019, 01:39 PM
How many of the independent conservatives are going to support the deal though? I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few abstains. From what I understand those labour members who have said they will vote for the deal are coming under pressure from the party to abstain instead. The vote tomorrow is going to be very interesting.
Hopefully a second referendum amendment will be attached to it.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 01:46 PM
Exactly. I seriously doubt all of them will vote for the deal after being PURGED Add a few of them to no, plus some Labour abstentions as they don't want to be barred from ever standing again, and there you have it. The best bet is this v remain in a confirmatory referendum.
That email from that clueless Labour mp above is just There were no plans for brexshit, and so a confirmatory referendum to check the deal IS what some people voted for, is 100% a necessity in a democracy. This is especially true because the little that WAS offered, a Norway deal, is not this.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 01:53 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 02:23 PM)
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.
Will have to see if Labour imposes a 3-line whip to stop its northern MPs supporting the deal. It would be win/win-win for Corbyn if that's the case - if the deal fails, he'll get the credit. If it passes, then he gets to kick out those less loyal to him, plus he gets UK out of the EU, which we all know he secretly supports.
She is wrong in her first paragraph, and that's without commenting on the missing apostrophe. Her duty is to act in the interests of her constituents. That is not the same as representing their views. If MPs were mere delegates, there wouldn't be much point on having them.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 01:57 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 18 2019, 02:46 PM)
Exactly. I seriously doubt all of them will vote for the deal after being PURGED Add a few of them to no, plus some Labour abstentions as they don't want to be barred from ever standing again, and there you have it. The best bet is this v remain in a confirmatory referendum.
That email from that clueless Labour mp above is just There were no plans for brexshit, and so a confirmatory referendum to check the deal IS what some people voted for, is 100% a necessity in a democracy. This is especially true because the little that WAS offered, a Norway deal, is not this.
Her point about there not being another referendum if Remain had won is particularly stupid. Remain voters implicitly voted for the status quo. Leave voters voted for a vague "something else". Under legislation passed by the coalition, any significant change in our relationship with the EU would be subject to a referendum. That would have included a government interpreting a Remain vote as a vote for "Hard Remain", i.e. joining the euro and Schengen.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 01:59 PM
Not to mention Farage screaming that a split decision win, specifically a 52/48 he mentioned, would "not be finished business".
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 02:07 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 02:36 PM)
I've been saying it since before the referendum and occasionally since then - people are not as rational as they believe themselves to be, and it doesn't take much to nudge someone in your direction. And if you think that you're completely free of irrational decision making, then you are a liar. I know I'm prone to it.
This is why hastily deciding something this important over a weekend, without proper scrutiny, is ridiculous. They're not even having a full day of debate.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 02:08 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 03:07 PM)
This is why hastily deciding something this important over a weekend, without proper scrutiny, is ridiculous. They're not even having a full day of debate.
This.
No proper debates, no scrutiny, just rammed through parliament. I really don't get why the opposition let a MINORIT GOVERNMENT do things like this when they have the numbers to rule from the opposition?
Posted by: Tones and Iz 18th October 2019, 02:13 PM
It would be alright if this deal passes subject to a confirmatory referendum. I know we don't go in for much with what we actually want these days, but it would make up for the unicorns and all manner of nonsense making up Brexit now Brexit has coalesced into reality.
It's also the only way, if it is going to happen, that I don't see us folding back into the EU at the next available opportunity. The narrative is there once it all goes to shit, we just need some finger-pointers to make it real. A successful Brexit on confirmatory vote would make it far harder for that narrative to exist.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 02:32 PM
Today's coverage sums up one of the worst things about journalism today. Nearly all of it is about whether the deal will get through. There is relatively little about the details of the deal and the question of whether it deserves to be passed. So, a lack of scrutiny by the media and a lack of time for MPs to do their job and hold the government to account. What a way to run a country.
Liberty fails in legal bid aimed at preventing no-deal Brexit
Court of appeal unanimously rejects request for urgent hearing before Commons vote
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 04:59 PM
Priti Patel having a trainwreck of an interview on LBC. Attempting to mislead that the withdrawal agreement is a trade agreement, not answering whether no-deal could happen by default next year, and so on. Terrible.
It's interesting how the full economic impact assessment, which exists, won't be published until after the vote.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 05:05 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 05:59 PM)
Priti Patel having a trainwreck of an interview on LBC. Attempting to mislead that the withdrawal agreement is a trade agreement, not answering whether no-deal could happen by default next year, and so on. Terrible.
It's interesting how the full economic impact assessment, which exists, won't be published until after the vote.
Yet another piece of subterfuge to add to the list. Can you imagine the headlines if a Labour government had tried even half of these tricks?
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 05:41 PM
We live under a Tory dictatorship with a one party state media.
Posted by: Kath 18th October 2019, 06:07 PM
Is anyone else here going on the march in London tomorrow? I'm setting of to my sister's in about half an hour as we're leaving at 5.30 tomorrow from Liverpool!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:18 PM
Macron ready to block further extension. He's fed up as everyone is.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:21 PM
IDS is against the deal and May is undecided still. Amber Rudd still 50/50 and will sleep on it apparently. 9 Labour MP's will definitely back it but thought this will not be enough.
Debate from 9.30 with vote rumoured to be 2.30pm.
EDIT. John McDonnell is furious with labour rebels who intend to vote for this deal.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:23 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Oct 18 2019, 07:07 PM)
Is anyone else here going on the march in London tomorrow? I'm setting of to my sister's in about half an hour as we're leaving at 5.30 tomorrow from Liverpool!
March for what exactly? Climate change?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:24 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 03:07 PM)
This is why hastily deciding something this important over a weekend, without proper scrutiny, is ridiculous. They're not even having a full day of debate.
Five hours is time enough. They've had 3 years to debate this. Has to end tomorrow. Even President Macron has had enough and don't blame him.
Posted by: Kath 18th October 2019, 06:27 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 18 2019, 07:23 PM)
March for what exactly? Climate change?
The March for Strippers Rights! I thought you of all people would have heard of it!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:31 PM
A lot of Labour will now abstain. Boris has reportedly made concessions to Labour MP's on workers rights to get this through with Corbyn personally phoning them telling them to vote it down.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:32 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Oct 18 2019, 07:27 PM)
The March for Strippers Rights! I thought you of all people would have heard of it!
I genuinely don't know if it's Brexit or climate change. If Brexit then it's all over. Macron to veto extension so we're out on 31st. Boris's deal or no deal.
Posted by: mald487 18th October 2019, 06:37 PM
We're not out on October 31st even if this shitty deal gets approved(which I have a sinking feeling it will).
Macron has been making these noises for months to appease his own people. He will fall in line with the rest of the EU27.
Again you are showing you understand nothing about this. Pleb.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 06:38 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 18 2019, 07:37 PM)
We're not out on October 31st even if this shitty deal gets approved(which I have a sinking feeling it will).
Macron has been making these noises for months to appease his own people. He will fall in line with the rest of the EU27.
Again you are showing you understand nothing about this. Pleb.
BBC saying it'll be passed by 2 votes they believe. 4-6 week extension for the 27 Parliaments to approve deal. Out by Christmas.
Odds are 4-6 now that it passes.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 18th October 2019, 06:52 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 18 2019, 07:37 PM)
We're not out on October 31st even if this shitty deal gets approved(which I have a sinking feeling it will).
Macron has been making these noises for months to appease his own people. He will fall in line with the rest of the EU27.
Again you are showing you understand nothing about this. Pleb.
This. Merkel has said there will be another extension. Macron always talks tough for his home audience.
Finance impact assessments released after the vote, only a 5 hour debate, no time for proper scrutiny, absolute madness.
Posted by: blacksquare 18th October 2019, 07:03 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 18 2019, 07:24 PM)
Five hours is time enough. They've had 3 years to debate this. Has to end tomorrow. Even President Macron has had enough and don't blame him.
Again, you’re being disingenuous. They haven’t had three years to debate this agreement. An agreement this important, with potential ramifications for generations, shouldn’t be decided over a quick a debate without all the information. The economic assessment is being held until after the vote. Why?
I could go on, but you’re completely blind to reason.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 18th October 2019, 07:28 PM
QUOTE(Kath @ Oct 18 2019, 07:07 PM)
Is anyone else here going on the march in London tomorrow? I'm setting of to my sister's in about half an hour as we're leaving at 5.30 tomorrow from Liverpool!
I’m in London tomorrow, albeit for a wedding, so hopefully it doesn’t cause too much disruption.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 18th October 2019, 07:34 PM
IF this passes, it absolutely must pass with the Letwin amendment. We need that security that the government won’t get round the Benn law by holding a vote and then crashing us out on Halloween now the conditions of benn are met.
Letwin is sensible. This is a landmark piece of legislation, it’s democratic vandalism to throw it through without time to sufficiently understand the impact of it and what enabling legislation is required. Like our VAT law needs completely rewritten. That’s a good 15-18 months worth of work.
We need time to properly understand this agreement. Properly examine the laws and then give parliament a confirmatory vote. At the same time, this has to be ratified by the EU27. A technical extension until Jan 31st to enable ratification by EU27 and a proper examination by UK government with understanding by all 28 that extension ends once all 27 have ratified and once UK has ratified. I’m vehemently against this deal and Brexit in general tbh but this, this is the most sensible path if you genuinely want to leave with a deal
Posted by: Rooney 18th October 2019, 08:05 PM
Right now I think the Deal will pass. But still think there are a few twists and turns. Be interesting to see if there are any Tory rebels. I'm fairly certain there will be.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 08:11 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 08:28 PM)
I’m in London tomorrow, albeit for a wedding, so hopefully it doesn’t cause too much disruption.
I bet Kath will be up Big Ben.
Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin 18th October 2019, 08:38 PM
The hilarity of someone who doesn't work talking about workers' rights in the abstract as something that its a-ok for Boris to wilfully f*ck with.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 18th October 2019, 08:47 PM
QUOTE(TheJü-Pumpkin @ Oct 18 2019, 09:38 PM)
The hilarity of someone who doesn't work talking about workers' rights in the abstract as something that its a-ok for Boris to wilfully f*ck with.
My personal circumstances shouldn't come in to this. I am not out of work through choice.
Boris is promising individual Labour MP's tonight that workers rights will be fully protected.
Posted by: Suedehead2 18th October 2019, 08:55 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 18 2019, 09:47 PM)
My personal circumstances shouldn't come in to this. I am not out of work through choice.
Boris is promising individual Labour MP's tonight that workers rights will be fully protected.
And why, given his record, should anyone believe an assurance from that serial liar?
Posted by: mald487 18th October 2019, 11:06 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 18 2019, 08:47 PM)
Boris is promising...
Posted by: Tones and Iz 19th October 2019, 05:14 AM
Ah I do hope the march goes well.
Letwin is looking very important to avoid legal trickery. If the implications of it become clear early enough it may stop the ERG from supporting, and it looks like Johnson won’t have the likes of Hammond and Gauke plus some Labour rebels, without it.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 08:26 AM
BREAKING. No.10 says if Letwin amendment passes then they'll pull the Brexit bill before it's even voted on. It'll be re-introduced on Monday.
Posted by: blacksquare 19th October 2019, 09:08 AM
Well, a surprise. Norman Lamb will actually be voting against.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 09:21 AM
Just a reminder that more people cared about Strictly than Brexshit back in 16 pre referendum x Like, by a lot.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 10:35 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 19 2019, 10:08 AM)
Well, a surprise. Norman Lamb will actually be voting against.
At least that's one nightmare scenario averted.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 01:55 PM
So no vote on Boris's deal today, as Letwin's delaying tactic has worked. Another MP just trying to frustrate Brexit again.
Posted by: Rooney 19th October 2019, 01:57 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 02:55 PM)
So no vote on Boris's deal today, as Letwin's delaying tactic has worked. Another MP just trying to frustrate Brexit again.
You do realise that even if the Deal passes we would still be in the EU for at least another year?
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 19th October 2019, 01:59 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 18 2019, 09:47 PM)
Boris is promising individual Labour MP's tonight that workers rights will be fully protected.
The same Boris who promised to lie down in front of bulldozers at Heathrow Airport. More fool you for believing a single word he says.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:01 PM
Boris tells MP's he's not sending the letter. I wouldn't either if I'd got a perfectly good deal. If he does the EU should have the balls to refuse an extension.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:11 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Oct 19 2019, 02:57 PM)
You do realise that even if the Deal passes we would still be in the EU for at least another year?
Yes but only technically whilst the finer detail's being sorted out.
So the vote on Monday but will Boris be in jail?
EDIT. Cummings has just apparently told the BBC the government will not ask for a delay and any letter from parliament they will ask the EU to ignore as it hasn't come from the PM.
They are going to break the law. Looks like Bercow will have to send the letter, he has said he will when asked just now in HOC. Boris apparently relying on his belief that they wouldn't dare arrest the PM.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 02:26 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 02:55 PM)
So no vote on Boris's deal today, as Letwin's delaying tactic has worked. Another MP just trying to frustrate Brexit again.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand the concepts of advisory referendum and parliamentary democracy?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:28 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 03:26 PM)
Why is it so difficult for you to understand the concepts of advisory referendum and parliamentary democracy?
I understand that but Boris has got a perfectly good deal. I don't understand why they've postponed the vote until Monday. They could have still had it later today despite Letwin passing.
Sky speculating that they want to look carefully at which MP's voted for Letwin so they can try to twist a few more arms before Monday.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 02:32 PM
Perfectly and good are amongst the last two words anyone with more than one brain cell would use to describe this “deal”
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 02:34 PM
First thing Monday we’re back in action in the court in Scotland where BoJo made a cast iron promise to the Court of Session that he would fully comply with the Benn Act in letter and in spirit. I expect if no letter goes out tonight or if is a shoddy conjob then the Scottish Court will be, rightfully, quite pissed off
Posted by: Tones and Iz 19th October 2019, 02:36 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 02:28 PM)
I understand that but Boris has got a perfectly good deal. I don't understand why they've postponed the vote until Monday. They could have still had it later today despite Letwin passing.
Sky speculating that they want to look carefully at which MP's voted for Letwin so they can try to twist a few more arms before Monday.
The implication would be that there were some MPs (the ERG crazies) who were only planning to vote for the deal in bad faith so that they can get their no-deal on technicalities. With Letwin enacted there would be no reason for them to vote and as such the deal doesn't pass.
These would be the same crazies who frustrated the first deal. Not that either is a good deal in any sense of the imagination and it's far more commendable if we're talking about an MP who voted against/is planning to vote against both in order to protect their constituents.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:41 PM
Love this description of Bercow on DS "Bercow's still wittering on. He's like a huge infected boil on yer bum that you just can't get rid of" True. Absolutely true.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 02:43 PM
IT IS A f***ING NON BINDING REFERENDUM ON A SPLIT VTOE BASED ON LIES AND FALLACIES AND FANTASIES. IT HAS NO MANDATE. IT IS NOT SOVEREIGN. IT HAS NO, THAT IS ZERO ZILCH, BASIS IN LAW. LORD ALMIGHTY THIS TROLL!! Even ignoring it and I have to see its trolling quoted. The deal is also shit and Mad May's with a WORSE BORDER THAT BOJO THE CLOWN SAID HIMSELF NO PM COULD BE WRAK RNOUGH TO ACCEPT.
Posted by: T Boy 19th October 2019, 02:47 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:41 PM)
Love this description of Bercow on DS "Bercow's still wittering on. He's like a huge infected boil on yer bum that you just can't get rid of" True. Absolutely true.
That’s also an apt description of yourself.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 02:49 PM
Oh LORD. Ban that troll.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:49 PM
It was a non-binding referendum as you keep reminding me yet MP's voted for May to start proceeding by invoking A50. Two successive PM's have wanted to follow the will of the people.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:50 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
Oh LORD. Ban that troll.
Why is anyone who disagrees with you called names and a troll? You call Vidcapper a moron too now.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 02:54 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
It was a non-binding referendum as you keep reminding me yet MP's voted for May to start proceeding by invoking A50. Two successive PM's have wanted to follow the will of the people.
As you should know by now - after all, it's been stated here more than enough - MPs are obliged to vote for what they believe to be in the best interests of the country. If the deal before them is not, in their opinion, in the best interests of the country, they are duty-bound to vote against it.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 02:55 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:50 PM)
Why is anyone who disagrees with you called names and a troll? You call Vidcapper a moron too now.
Are there two of you? I'm sure someone with the same user name posted something insulting John Bercow just a few minutes ago.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 02:56 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 03:54 PM)
As you should know by now - after all, it's been stated here more than enough - MPs are obliged to vote for what they believe to be in the best interests of the country. If the deal before them is not, in their opinion, in the best interests of the country, they are duty-bound to vote against it.
This.
51% and 17 out of 65 million and 20% youth support does not werrl erf perperrl (a Nazi expression btw) make.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:57 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 03:55 PM)
Are there two of you? I'm sure someone with the same user name posted something insulting John Bercow just a few minutes ago.
No just one of me. I don't need socks to put my points across.
Posted by: vidcapper 19th October 2019, 02:57 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 03:54 PM)
As you should know by now - after all, it's been stated here more than enough - MPs are obliged to vote for what they believe to be in the best interests of the country. If the deal before them is not, in their opinion, in the best interests of the country, they are duty-bound to vote against it.
Then they suffer the consequences of pissing off Leave voters.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 02:59 PM
I Just had a thought. If the EU want this to pass then shouldn't the EU think it's best to refuse an extension? If it was the deal or no deal surely it would pass.
Hopefully Boris is on the phone to them all to point this out. Doesn't matter which one vetos it so long as they do. They could even announce before midnight that no letter is needed as there will be no extension as they've reached a perfectly good deal.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 03:00 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 03:57 PM)
Then they suffer the consequences of pissing off Leave voters.
If MPs want to avoid pissing off voters, they are in the wrong job.
Posted by: Tones and Iz 19th October 2019, 03:02 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 02:57 PM)
Then they suffer the consequences of pissing off Leave voters.
whose irritation is not worth making the country intentionally poorer. History will judge any who do so harshly.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:03 PM
QUOTE(Tones and Iz @ Oct 19 2019, 04:02 PM)
whose irritation is not worth making the country intentionally poorer. History will judge any who do so harshly.
History will also judge those who frustrate the will of the people when two successive PM's even recognised the need to implement it.
Posted by: vidcapper 19th October 2019, 03:04 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 04:00 PM)
If MPs want to avoid pissing off voters, they are in the wrong job.
Good point!
Seriously though, how many MP's are gonna put the country ahead of their jobs? Given what an unscrupulous bunch they are, not many I suspect!
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 03:04 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 03:57 PM)
Then they suffer the consequences of pissing off Leave voters.
Ooh dear! Let's quake in our boots at the threats of some right wing fascists on twitter and old people with zimmers.
Put the deal through nad piss off FAR YOUNGER FAR MORE NUMEROUS remainers. 1 million marchers v 20 people marching from Sunderland. 6 million petition vs 200k Brexshit one. Lolololol.
I guess we should appease fascists and do everything to please them in the face of their threats unlike um ANY OTHER TIME IN HISTORY EXCEPT THE WEAKEST MOMENTS UNDER CHAMBERLAIN?!
Posted by: vidcapper 19th October 2019, 03:06 PM
QUOTE(Tones and Iz @ Oct 19 2019, 04:02 PM)
whose irritation is not worth making the country intentionally poorer. History will judge any who do so harshly.
Based on what is no more than a *claim* by Remainers?
Posted by: Tones and Iz 19th October 2019, 03:07 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:03 PM)
History will also judge those who frustrate the will of the people when two successive PM's even recognised the need to implement it.
No, they won't. Historians aren't partisan, nor would they be so tunnel-visioned. The likely conclusion would be that it was a giant mistake to call the referendum in the first place.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:07 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 04:04 PM)
Put the deal through nad piss off FAR YOUNGER FAR MORE NUMEROUS remainers.
How many of those didn't bother to even vote in the referendum? Yes some weren't 18 but a lot were.
Posted by: blacksquare 19th October 2019, 03:08 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
It was a non-binding referendum as you keep reminding me yet MP's voted for May to start proceeding by invoking A50. Two successive PM's have wanted to follow the will of the people.
The will of the people has lost all meaning when half of the country doesn't want this. The will of the people would have been to negotiate a deal that at least resembled what was promised during the referendum.
The most extreme version of Brexit is not the will of the people.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 03:09 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 04:06 PM)
Based on what is no more than a *claim* by Remainers?
Based on statistics and experts. You should listen to them more than Tim who reads the daily mail x
And can people stop quoting the troll trolling with that Nazi phrase please? Thanks. Werrl errf perperrrrel.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:10 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 19 2019, 04:08 PM)
The will of the people has lost all meaning when half of the country doesn't want this. The will of the people would have been to negotiate a deal that at least resembled what was promised during the referendum.
The most extreme version of Brexit is not the will of the people.
Did you listen to Boris speaking at 9.40 am? He said it's a great deal. Jobs and industry will be protected. He has also promised that to worried MP's.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 03:12 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 04:04 PM)
Good point!
Seriously though, how many MP's are gonna put the country ahead of their jobs? Given what an unscrupulous bunch they are, not many I suspect!
Judging by the article in her name in today's i, not Nicky Morgan. I'm not sure whether she actually read the article which was clearly written by Dominic Cummings.
Posted by: Tones and Iz 19th October 2019, 03:14 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 03:06 PM)
Based on what is no more than a *claim* by Remainers?
The burden of proof should be on those wishing to make such a fundamental change. Yet we have seen no indications even remotely that any version of Brexit, much less anything like this current deal, will be an improvement, and prominent Brexiters have been silent on the matter or have made appeals to democracy instead of extolling the benefits of Brexit. If it were such a good proposition, surely some concrete economic signs would have emerged.
In fact the opposite has happened. Weak pound, sub-par deals talked up by non-EU trading partners, all projections to being a sick man of Europe and plaything of the Americans.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 03:21 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 04:10 PM)
Did you listen to Boris speaking at 9.40 am? He said it's a great deal. Jobs and industry will be protected. He has also promised that to worried MP's.
Why would I want to waste my time listening to a serial liar? Why do you believe everything he says given his record?
Posted by: Harve 19th October 2019, 03:23 PM
I'm too stressed by the whole thing to go into the maths of it, but I feel like the DUP open to now backing a referendum (!!!) could finally give such an amendment a majority in parliament?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:23 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 04:21 PM)
Why would I want to waste my time listening to a serial liar? Why do you believe everything he says given his record?
I don't believe everything as I believe he'll send the letter tonight whilst at the same time ringing them all asking them not to give us an extension.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 03:24 PM
I don’t understand how people are that stupid. I really really don’t understand. It’s clear and obvious he’s lying through his teeth. You just have to listen to him and what his fellow MOs are actually saying.
We’re going to be brought down by people with less brain cells than they’ve got GCSEs
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 03:25 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Oct 19 2019, 04:23 PM)
I'm too stressed by the whole thing to go into the maths of it, but I feel like the DUP open to now backing a referendum (!!!) could finally give such an amendment a majority in parliament?
Seems to me that the ERG overplayed their hand big time when it comes to the DUP and it’s going to bite them hard
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:26 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 19 2019, 04:24 PM)
I don’t understand how people are that stupid. I really really don’t understand. It’s clear and obvious he’s lying through his teeth. You just have to listen to him and what his fellow MOs are actually saying.
We’re going to be brought down by people with less brain cells than they’ve got GCSEs
I think it is very insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying all Brexiteers have no brain cells. Not just you, have heard lots of people calling us all names.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:27 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 19 2019, 04:25 PM)
Seems to me that the ERG overplayed their hand big time when it comes to the DUP and it’s going to bite them hard
Just 6 Labour MP's voted for Letwin and Sky saying that wouldn't be enough to pass it on Monday without the DUP, even with the whole of the ERG.
Sky saying the EU don't have to grant or deny an extension straight away. They may wait until after Monday's vote or even until 31st.
Posted by: Calum 19th October 2019, 03:34 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 04:26 PM)
I think it is very insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying all Brexiteers have no brain cells. Not just you, have heard lots of people calling us all names.
Insulting, maybe. Far from incorrect though.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:41 PM
Ugly scenes outside Parliament as Andrea Leadsom and JRM are surrounded by angry protestors. Both had to have a lot of police protection as they walked to their London bases.
Posted by: vidcapper 19th October 2019, 03:42 PM
QUOTE(Calum @ Oct 19 2019, 04:34 PM)
Insulting, maybe. Far from incorrect though.
Perhaps we should declare ourselves a 'protected minority' and have insults against Brexiters declared a 'hate crime'.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 03:43 PM
Well, you sure are thr minority.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:44 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 04:42 PM)
Perhaps we should declare ourselves a 'protected minority' and have insults against Brexiters declared a 'hate crime'.
Yes I think we should Vid.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 03:45 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 04:43 PM)
Well, you sure are thr minority.
Whispers 51 - 48
Posted by: Harve 19th October 2019, 04:12 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:27 PM)
Just 6 Labour MP's voted for Letwin and Sky saying that wouldn't be enough to pass it on Monday without the DUP, even with the whole of the ERG.
There are plenty of Labour MPs who voted for/abstained on Letwin's amendment but are also pro-deal: Sarah Champion, Emma Lewell-Buck, Melanie Onn, Graham Stringer, Gareth Snell etc. The numbers are certainly there for a deal whenever it's presented, but there's no parliamentary majority for it in the medium-long term: the likes of Bill Cash and Owen Paterson, who still actively want no deal once the transition period ends, aren't going to see eye-to-eye with Amber Rudd or Caroline Flint in the weeks and months to come. So that alone is dangerous.
Posted by: mald487 19th October 2019, 04:24 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 03:45 PM)
Whispers 51 - 48
Whispers nearly 4 years ago after buying bullshit lies from an illegally funded campaign.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 04:29 PM
Whispers: 27% of the population, 20% of the youth. Whispers: 2 of four nations. Whispers: no longer 51%. Whispers: minority.
Posted by: *Tim 19th October 2019, 04:40 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 03:42 PM)
Perhaps we should declare ourselves a 'protected minority' and have insults against Brexiters declared a 'hate crime'.
If you're a minority, wouldnt the will of the people be exactly the opposite of your will?
Glad we settled that
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 04:43 PM
QUOTE(*Tim @ Oct 19 2019, 05:40 PM)
If you're a minority, wouldnt the will of the people be exactly the opposite of your will?
Glad we settled that
Swish, swish, bish, another one in the basket, and another one and another one!
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 04:52 PM
Images of far right facist Bojo supporters doing Nazi salutes etc outside of parliament. Vile. Imagine being on the same side as them even inadvertently!
Posted by: blacksquare 19th October 2019, 05:02 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 04:41 PM)
Ugly scenes outside Parliament as Andrea Leadsom and JRM are surrounded by angry protestors. Both had to have a lot of police protection as they walked to their London bases.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 05:04 PM
Tories are to blame for this. Scourge of politics.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 06:07 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 06:04 PM)
Tories are to blame for this. Scourge of politics.
Well if Labour had had a half-decent Leader in 2017 they could have won the election.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 06:22 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 07:07 PM)
Well if Labour had had a half-decent Leader in 2017 they could have won the election.
If their leader had actually made himself visible in 2016 and campaigned as he did in 2017, Remain may well have won.
Oh. and if Labour had had a decent leader in 2017, there wouldn't have been an election.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 06:29 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 07:22 PM)
If their leader had actually made himself visible in 2016 and campaigned as he did in 2017, Remain may well have won.
I doubt it. I always thought leave would win. People were just sick of the floods of immigrants, especially in London and other big cities and also us being ruled by an iron fist by the EU.
I do think remain would win now though.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 06:33 PM
Only a few hours till we find out if weak n wobbly, disgrace of a politician, worst pm ever Bojo sends a letter or not. If he doesn't, we find out who the police REALLY work for.
Posted by: T Boy 19th October 2019, 06:40 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 07:29 PM)
I doubt it. I always thought leave would win. People were just sick of the floods of immigrants, especially in London and other big cities and also us being ruled by an iron fist by the EU.
I do think remain would win now though.
Is that because you’ve realised immigration figures won’t fall?
I always thought remain would win because this is just insane and has shown Britain up big time.
Posted by: blacksquare 19th October 2019, 06:46 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 07:29 PM)
I doubt it. I always thought leave would win. People were just sick of the floods of immigrants, especially in London and other big cities and also us being ruled by an iron fist by the EU.
That is false. https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-uk-major-cities-2842870-Jun2016/ (50.4%, so barely) whereas London, Manchester, and so on voted to remain.
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 07:29 PM)
I do think remain would win now though.
Why should the most extreme version of Brexit happen when you think remain would win now? Surely that should indicate something to you?
Posted by: mald487 19th October 2019, 06:50 PM
There's no point in putting those points to Chris. He won't answer them because he knows you're right.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 06:53 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 07:29 PM)
I doubt it. I always thought leave would win. People were just sick of the floods of immigrants, especially in London and other big cities and also us being ruled by an iron fist by the EU.
I do think remain would win now though.
Would you care to provide some examples of this iron fist? Given our veto, you might find it a little tricky.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 07:04 PM
Iron fist?! f*** sake. That troll man!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 07:11 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 19 2019, 07:40 PM)
Is that because you’ve realised immigration figures won’t fall?
I always thought remain would win because this is just insane and has shown Britain up big time.
They're falling already. Not enough people to pick the raspberries.
Posted by: T Boy 19th October 2019, 07:37 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 08:11 PM)
They're falling already. Not enough people to pick the raspberries.
Only because they probably feel unsafe in a country that feels like it’s getting increasingly xenophobic by the day.
Also this raspberry pickers you wanted out of the country may not have had to come here and do that job if lazy people draining the system like you could actually be bothered to do the job themselves.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 07:50 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 04:26 PM)
I think it is very insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying all Brexiteers have no brain cells. Not just you, have heard lots of people calling us all names.
Where did I say all brexiteers has no brain cells?
Although if the shoe fits
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 04:27 PM)
Just 6 Labour MP's voted for Letwin and Sky saying that wouldn't be enough to pass it on Monday without the DUP, even with the whole of the ERG. Sky saying the EU don't have to grant or deny an extension straight away. They may wait until after Monday's vote or even until 31st.
Count the DUP as permanently against y’all now. They’re even considering backing a people’s vote
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 19 2019, 04:42 PM)
Perhaps we should declare ourselves a 'protected minority' and have insults against Brexiters declared a 'hate crime'.
Minority? But I thought you said this was the will of the people?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 08:08 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 19 2019, 08:37 PM)
Only because they probably feel unsafe in a country that feels like it’s getting increasingly xenophobic by the day.
Also this raspberry pickers you wanted out of the country may not have had to come here and do that job if lazy people draining the system like you could actually be bothered to do the job themselves.
Pardon? I never wanted them out of the country at all?
Posted by: *Tim 19th October 2019, 08:14 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 08:08 PM)
Pardon? I never wanted them out of the country at all?
You wanted less immigrants. And who pick your beloved raspberries oh right, eastern european immigrants because they, as opposed to brits, don't feel above those jobs
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 08:41 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 09:08 PM)
Pardon? I never wanted them out of the country at all?
Except that you did. You explicitly voted for it and have mentioned repeatedly that immigration was your reason for voting for brexshit
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 08:44 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 19 2019, 09:41 PM)
Except that you did. You explicitly voted for it and have mentioned repeatedly that immigration was your reason for voting for brexshit
Yes it was and the reason given by everyone I know who voted out.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 08:46 PM
Then you explicitly voted for EU citizens to leave the country. Ergo, Tboys post about you has you nailed
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 08:59 PM
I don't know if any of you watched Boris being questioned by MP's this morning but he was asked if he can assure the house and the country that any trade deals in the future with other countries or with the EU will be as good as and on similar terms as we have now with the eu. He said yes of course they will be.
Posted by: Envoirment 19th October 2019, 09:05 PM
Boris sent the extension letter.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 09:06 PM
Weak piece of shit.
Lying down in front of bulldozers all over again. Our msm is complicit in obsessing over his lies and tresting it like a will they, won't they thing.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:08 PM
He has apparently sent two. The second one is unsigned and instead says "the big boys made me do it"
It's disgraceful if we get another extension. One MP has said we may be still discussing this in 5 years time.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 09:10 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 09:59 PM)
I don't know if any of you watched Boris being questioned by MP's this morning but he was asked if he can assure the house and the country that any trade deals in the future with other countries or with the EU will be as good as and on similar terms as we have now with the eu. He said yes of course they will be.
And how do you think he will manage to get a deal with the EU as good as the one we currently have. Just in case you've forgotten, that deal means tariff-free trade with seamless movement of goods between the UK and the rest of the EU. Methinks it might be a little tricky to match that deal.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:11 PM
From BBC news:
Boris Johnson will send a letter to the EU by 00:00 BST to request a Brexit delay - but he will not sign it, according to a Downing Street source.
The request will be accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, which will say he believes that a delay would be a mistake, the source said.
The PM was required by law to ask the EU for an extension to the 31 October deadline after losing a Commons vote.
It is expected Donald Tusk will now consult EU leaders about an extension.
The first letter from Downing Street to Mr Tusk, EU Council President, requests a delay to the Brexit process, to comply with the so-called Benn Act, passed last month by MPs.
A hard copy and email copy of the letter will be conveyed by Sir Tim Barrow, the UK's representative in Brussels.
But according to the senior Number 10 source, the prime minister will not sign the letter to Mr Tusk and it will be accompanied by two additional documents.
Posted by: Envoirment 19th October 2019, 09:12 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 09:59 PM)
I don't know if any of you watched Boris being questioned by MP's this morning but he was asked if he can assure the house and the country that any trade deals in the future with other countries or with the EU will be as good as and on similar terms as we have now with the eu. He said yes of course they will be.
Lying once again. The US want concessions regarding food standards and for their pharmaceutical companies to have better access to the NHS. Japan wants terms more favourable than they currently have with the EU. India wants large concessions for a trade deal, particularly regarding potential freedom of movement regarding students. Pretty much every country the EU has trade deals with want even better terms, given the terrible and desparate position the UK will be in - including Australia/New Zealand. The UK is going to be in a very vunerable position post-brexit unless a deal that keeps us in the single market/custom union with the EU occurs.
I mean just look at how badly brexit negotiations have gone so far. Trade negotiations are way more complicated than the withdrawal agreement with the EU and we'd have to do them with many, many countries in the event of no single market access/custom union with the EU.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 09:15 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 09:59 PM)
I don't know if any of you watched Boris being questioned by MP's this morning but he was asked if he can assure the house and the country that any trade deals in the future with other countries or with the EU will be as good as and on similar terms as we have now with the eu. He said yes of course they will be.
That’s outwith the scope of his competence. He has no control over what other countries will offer us and so this is nothing but a complete lie. Believing it says more about you than anything else
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 09:15 PM
Why is that troll repwating pro Bojo pro government propaganda? Who needs Russian bots when you have trolls like these?
A tiny little country without autarchy cannot get deals as good as an entire continent. Sigh.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 09:17 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:11 PM)
From BBC news:
Boris Johnson will send a letter to the EU by 00:00 BST to request a Brexit delay - but he will not sign it, according to a Downing Street source.
The request will be accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, which will say he believes that a delay would be a mistake, the source said.
The PM was required by law to ask the EU for an extension to the 31 October deadline after losing a Commons vote.
It is expected Donald Tusk will now consult EU leaders about an extension.
The first letter from Downing Street to Mr Tusk, EU Council President, requests a delay to the Brexit process, to comply with the so-called Benn Act, passed last month by MPs.
A hard copy and email copy of the letter will be conveyed by Sir Tim Barrow, the UK's representative in Brussels.
But according to the senior Number 10 source, the prime minister will not sign the letter to Mr Tusk and it will be accompanied by two additional documents.
I’m so excited to see him being arrested after being found in contempt of court
Of course if he doesn’t want the Scottish court breathing down his neck he could put a motion forward for the revocation of the Act of Union 1707
Posted by: Envoirment 19th October 2019, 09:18 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:08 PM)
It's disgraceful if we get another extension. One MP has said we may be still discussing this in 5 years time.
I don't think it's disgraceful at all. Talks were always going to be long and very complicated. An extension ensures the deal gets proper scrutiny and in the event of it getting accepted, will give enough time for legislation to be passed to ensure it is enacted upon and that we don't "accidentally" leave with a no-deal.
The EU are very likely to approve an extension, as they want to avoid a no deal at all costs. No matter what Macron says, he will likely agree to an extension. I mean if he was to refuse and be the cause of a no deal brexit, he certainly wouldn't be doing himself any favours as it would not only cause damage to the UK economy, but to the EU economy as well.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:19 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 19 2019, 10:17 PM)
I’m so excited to see him being arrested after being found in contempt of court
Of course if he doesn’t want the Scottish court breathing down his neck he could put a motion forward for the revocation of the Act of Union 1707
He's sent the letter. No-one said he had to sign it or not send a second one.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 09:27 PM
I hope the EU gives a year or two year extension, basically allowing for a Corbyn government to come in, negotiate a Norway style model and a that v remain ref.
Posted by: Envoirment 19th October 2019, 09:35 PM
A longer extension would be a good idea. I feel that we may end up with December 2020 as the next deadline, which is in line with the WA extension period. It would take ~6 months to set up and prepare a second referendum. If parties do agree to hold one that is. We'll still be a member of the EU until December 2020 if a deal gets through, perhaps even later (I believe the transition period can be extended by up to four years, so potentially December 2024).
The EU could quite easily pull the rug from under Boris though by agreeing to an indefinite extension - allowing the UK to remain a part of the EU for as long as it takes for Parliament to agree and get through the deal or to hold a second referendum/general election and revoke A50.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 09:42 PM
They should do that! No more deal or no deals - no time limit. In fact, I think they should change A50 to that after this mess. No deadlines.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:44 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 10:27 PM)
I hope the EU gives a year or two year extension, basically allowing for a Corbyn government to come in, negotiate a Norway style model and a that v remain ref.
Dream on. A Corbyn Government will never come in.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:45 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 19 2019, 10:27 PM)
I hope the EU gives a year or two year extension, basically allowing for a Corbyn government to come in, negotiate a Norway style model and a that v remain ref.
Sky saying rumours are that it'll be until Dec or Jan 31st. Time for the deal to be agreed by MP's and ratified by the EU27. Plenty of time that.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 09:52 PM
The EU should only grant an extension if the vote passes next week, to just tie up the loose ends. I bet they wait to decide until after the vote then if it passes give a short extension, maybe to the end of the year.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 09:58 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:45 PM)
Sky saying rumours are that it'll be until Dec or Jan 31st. Time for the deal to be agreed by MP's and ratified by the EU27. Plenty of time that.
I hope you will be urging Johnson to stick to his "do or die" promise.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 09:59 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:11 PM)
From BBC news:
Boris Johnson will send a letter to the EU by 00:00 BST to request a Brexit delay - but he will not sign it, according to a Downing Street source.
The request will be accompanied by a second letter, signed by Mr Johnson, which will say he believes that a delay would be a mistake, the source said.
The PM was required by law to ask the EU for an extension to the 31 October deadline after losing a Commons vote.
It is expected Donald Tusk will now consult EU leaders about an extension.
The first letter from Downing Street to Mr Tusk, EU Council President, requests a delay to the Brexit process, to comply with the so-called Benn Act, passed last month by MPs.
A hard copy and email copy of the letter will be conveyed by Sir Tim Barrow, the UK's representative in Brussels.
But according to the senior Number 10 source, the prime minister will not sign the letter to Mr Tusk and it will be accompanied by two additional documents.
Another childish stunt from the real Prime Minister, the unelected bureaucrat Dominic Cummings. Do you seriously think this will make MPs more likely to vote for the deal?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 10:01 PM
Extension until ratification of the deal by all parties is what the EU should offer. No ticking clock. It removes the possibility of a no deal cliff that would be damaging to all and then allows departure on date of UK ratification. Also allows for a ratification via a People’s Vote on our side without needing to request a further extension. Win wins all round really
Parliament can also VONC the c**t and get him out without a risk of an accidental no deal cliff
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:19 PM)
He's sent the letter. No-one said he had to sign it or not send a second one.
You do realise how sad and pathetic that looks right and that it’s all to pander to people like you?
Tusk has binned the garbage and has taken note of the extension request. Thank god someone in that room is acting like a grown up.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 10:06 PM
We have petulant manchild dictators treating with serious European politicians. It's embarrassing. Ban the troll already. We shouldn't have to read pro government hard right propaganda shite on here, through quotes or his shit posts.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 10:10 PM
While trying to formulate a response to the troll that didn’t, directly, insult him it appears that three of us have come to the same conclusion on what the EU should do. I really believe that’s the smart play
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 10:23 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 19 2019, 11:01 PM)
Extension until ratification of the deal by all parties is what the EU should offer. No ticking clock. It removes the possibility of a no deal cliff that would be damaging to all and then allows departure on date of UK ratification. Also allows for a ratification via a People’s Vote on our side without needing to request a further extension. Win wins all round really
We don't need a People's Vote. WE'VE HAD ONE. Why can't you remainers accept the result? More people voted leave than remain. Sometimes I think I'm debating with 4 year-lds here.Why not just accept it. If remain had one I wouldn't have been happy but would have accepted a democratic result. Boris doesn't want a second referendum and it's not thought there's a majority in Parliament for one either.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 10:27 PM
Of course the EU will keep granting extensions as they don't want us to leave because we put so much money in. They're frustrating Brexit just like remainers. Oh for one of the 27 to say enough's enough and have the balls to say no. I know it won't happen though as they're all cowards. Merkel's already said that when we leave Germany doesn't want to pay as much.
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th October 2019, 10:27 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 11:23 PM)
We don't need a People's Vote. WE'VE HAD ONE. Why can't you remainers accept the result? More people voted leave than remain. Sometimes I think I'm debating with 4 year-lds here.Why not just accept it. If remain had one I wouldn't have been happy but would have accepted a democratic result. Boris doesn't want a second referendum and it's not thought there's a majority in Parliament for one either.
We've told you dozens of times. First, the referendum was advisory. Second, it was on a vague, undefined concept. A second vote would be on an actual agreement. Third, the agreement bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything the Leave campaign called for. Which of those points can you still not understand?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 10:30 PM
We’re the only ones providing reasoned logical arguments but go off hun
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 10:34 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 19 2019, 11:27 PM)
We've told you dozens of times. First, the referendum was advisory. Second, it was on a vague, undefined concept. A second vote would be on an actual agreement. Third, the agreement bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything the Leave campaign called for. Which of those points can you still not understand?
It wasn't vague at all. What's vague about the question that was put before us? "Should we leave the EU or remain?"
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 19th October 2019, 10:46 PM
The EU really are pathetic. They know that Boris, the UK PM, doesn't want an extension so why don't they take that in to account and the fact that he's been forced to send a request for one and not grant us an extension.
Bit like a kid sending a birthday party invitation but telling the other kid in the playground. "I don't really want you but my parents said I had to invite you" Would you go?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th October 2019, 10:51 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 11:46 PM)
The EU really are pathetic. They know that Boris, the UK PM, doesn't want an extension so why don't they take that in to account and the fact that he's been forced to send a request for one and not grant us an extension. Bit like a kid sending a birthday party invitation but telling the other kid in the playground. "I don't really want you but my parents said I had to invite you" Would you go?
Time to put the cider down and go to bed
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 19th October 2019, 11:06 PM
My lord. He gets dumber by the post.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 12:16 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 19 2019, 10:34 PM)
It wasn't vague at all. What's vague about the question that was put before us? "Should we leave the EU or remain?"
SERIOUSLY?
Most people have no idea how the EU works or how it impacts our lives, both negatively and positively.
Johnson and his government are the patheic ones here, and trust me, YOU are the one acting like a four year old. You have NO IDEA how the world works . You treat the most serious post ww2 event this country has seen like a football game or BGT final, sitting at home, pissing tax payers money away and passing judgment on everybody!
Still you do this in full acknowledgement that it will piss people off because you are a troll.
Posted by: vidcapper 20th October 2019, 05:49 AM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 20 2019, 01:16 AM)
SERIOUSLY?
Most people have no idea how the EU works or how it impacts our lives, both negatively and positively.
That was what the referendum campaign was about.
To listen to Remainers now, you'd think they'd been banned from all promotion during the campaign...
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 08:04 AM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 20 2019, 01:16 AM)
Most people have no idea how the EU works or how it impacts our lives, both negatively and positively.
There you've said it. If it affects our lives NEGATIVELY at all then we shouldn't be in it despite the positives.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 08:28 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 09:04 AM)
There you've said it. If it affects our lives NEGATIVELY at all then we shouldn't be in it despite the positives.
Better get rid f governments then. After all, they also affect our lives negatively. While we’re at it, let’s abolish weather too.
Posted by: vidcapper 20th October 2019, 08:45 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 20 2019, 09:28 AM)
Better get rid f governments then. After all, they also affect our lives negatively. While we’re at it, let’s abolish weather too.
LOL!
Leave the nonsense to Queef...
Posted by: T Boy 20th October 2019, 08:50 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 09:04 AM)
There you've said it. If it affects our lives NEGATIVELY at all then we shouldn't be in it despite the positives.
You're affecting my life negatively right now but I haven’t asked you to leave.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 09:10 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:04 AM)
There you've said it. If it affects our lives NEGATIVELY at all then we shouldn't be in it despite the positives.
Ah! So your logic is we shouldn't do something if there are some downsides. Then surely we shouldn't leave then?
As it has been extensively demonstrated that leaving will impact our lives for the MOST PART negatively, and most people will be worse off OUT of the EU than they are IN!
So by using your logic I can conclude you would concede that leaving is a mistake.
Of course, you're not saying that are you? You're just contradicting yourself yet again for the 1,232,294th time.
Posted by: vidcapper 20th October 2019, 09:16 AM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 20 2019, 10:10 AM)
Ah! So your logic is we shouldn't do something if there are some downsides. Then surely we shouldn't leave then?
As it has been extensively demonstrated that leaving will impact our lives for the MOST PART negatively, and most people will be worse off OUT of the EU than they are IN!
This has not be demonstrated, only *suggested* by Project Fear.
Posted by: Harve 20th October 2019, 09:46 AM
Some Labour 'Brexit deliverers' have crossed the Rubicon now.
Arguing about delivering the result, their constituents' wishes and their electoral fortunes is one thing, but for centrist MPs to use anti-Euro/Troika arguments used by the radical left in Greece and Portugal in order to justify voting for a Boris Johnson Brexit is painful. Both Caroline Flint and Melanie Onn are anti-Corbyn Blairites, and why would they have campaigned for Remain if they believed this, or that the 'EU is responsible for the rise in zero-hours contracts and privatisation' all along? It's so dishonest.
These MPs are lauding Boris Johnson supposedly https://www.ft.com/content/5d817e54-f1df-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195 and basing their vote off this, but according to them, the EU's standards are terrible.
Posted by: Harve 20th October 2019, 09:50 AM
The majority of these Labour Brexit deliverers are based around me, in the North Midlands and Yorkshire, as the Brexit vote was very strong here. I live in a Tory-Labour marginal but I'll in effect spoil my vote and go for a no-hoper Green/Lib Dem in the next election (4.5% between them last time) if my Labour candidate is like this.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 09:54 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 20 2019, 10:16 AM)
This has not be demonstrated, only *suggested* by Project Fear.
No, the governments own assessments say this. Why is a government going ahead with something when their own assessments say it will damage the economy?
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 09:57 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 20 2019, 09:45 AM)
LOL!
Leave the nonsense to Queef...
There is nothing wrong with demonstrating the absurdity of someone else's argument.
The fact is that I don't like a lot of the restrictions central government imposes on local authorities. That doesn't mean I want Brighton & Hove to declare independence. Similarly, none of the (very minor) disadvantages of being in the EU are anywhere near enough to convince me that leaving it is a good idea.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 10:02 AM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 10:36 AM)
f*** off x All you do is talk shite and run from facts.
Vid doesn't swear and name-call and I don't either.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 10:07 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 20 2019, 09:16 AM)
This has not be demonstrated, only *suggested* by Project Fear.
Come now, you´re better than still trying to peddle this.
It´s been demonstrated by the governments own impact assessments.
If you leave a club, you will lose benefits of being in that club. That isn´t speculation. It will happen.
In in the case of UK, that will mean higher costs in many areas for many people who already don´t have much money left at the end of the month.
Labelling something that is likely to happen as Project Fear just because you don´t like it isn´t helpful to anybody.
Posted by: Tones and Iz 20th October 2019, 10:12 AM
The important thing that we shouldn't lose sight of here is that, away from all of the childish theatrics, Johnson did what he swore he would not do, he asked the EU for an extension. Materially, Tusk has accepted the main letter as a call for the extension, and that is all that matters. Johnson is a weak, weak Prime Minister who has been completely ineffectual at doing anything he set out to do.
also I think it's hilarious that vidcapper's still peddling the name Project Fear as though it were a shadowy Soros-funded propaganda machine hellbent at keeping the UK under the evil EU. Assessments are real things with real projections that exist, certified by experts. They all say it's not good for the country. And at this point in the procedure, everyone needs to be asking themselves, is Brexit really good for the country?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 10:24 AM
If it's not good for the country then why have both May and now Boris tried to get a deal to take us out? Could someone answer this please. Why would 2 successive PM's do something that would be bad for the country.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 10:29 AM
Looking at the result of the division on the Letwin amendment yesterday, and given the comments by some (former) Conservative MPs who backed it, I'd say that the Government DOES have the numbers to pass the Withdrawal Act 2.0.
Whether it will next week once the full impact assessments become available, as well as the potential for civil unrest that https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHQq3WYX4AEXXNM.jpg is by no means clear.
***Please also refrain from personal abuse, this is the final warning***
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 10:29 AM
I still low key cackle every time i see a brexiteer use project fear knowing that it started life in 2013 about Scotland losing its EU status. Given how much they hate Scottish nationalists, they sure are happy to pinch our slogans
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 10:34 AM
A backbench Labour MP, as yet unnamed, will most likely table an amendment to attach a second referendum requirement to Boris's deal. Starmer said this morning that Corbyn will probably have a 3 line whip for his MP's. Conservatives may three line-whip against it. Both DUP and SNP would vote for it. Starmer said the leadership would rather a backbencher table it than themselves.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 10:39 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 11:24 AM)
If it's not good for the country then why have both May and now Boris tried to get a deal to take us out? Could someone answer this please. Why would 2 successive PM's do something that would be bad for the country.
I answered this question in the previous thread.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 10:44 AM
QUOTE(Harve @ Oct 20 2019, 10:50 AM)
The majority of these Labour Brexit deliverers are based around me, in the North Midlands and Yorkshire, as the Brexit vote was very strong here. I live in a Tory-Labour marginal but I'll in effect spoil my vote and go for a no-hoper Green/Lib Dem in the next election (4.5% between them last time) if my Labour candidate is like this.
Not sure whether you are Bolsover or not, but Dennis Skinner has confirmed that he will be voting against.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 10:46 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 11:34 AM)
A backbench Labour MP, as yet unnamed, will most likely table an amendment to attach a second referendum requirement to Boris's deal. Starmer said this morning that Corbyn will probably have a 3 line whip for his MP's. Conservatives may three line-whip against it. Both DUP and SNP would vote for it. Starmer said the leadership would rather a backbencher table it than themselves.
The whole rainbow coalition is on board, so LibDems, Greens & Plaid will also support. They reckon there’s enough votes for this amendment to pass
What that then will do to the current majority for deal -2.0 is anyone’s guess
Posted by: T Boy 20th October 2019, 10:46 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 11:24 AM)
If it's not good for the country then why have both May and now Boris tried to get a deal to take us out? Could someone answer this please. Why would 2 successive PM's do something that would be bad for the country.
Because both cared more about staying in power than they did about Brexit. They overestimated the desire for it and are afraid of losing those votes from Brexiteers. You would have thought the last GE would have opened their eyes on this however.
They care not about the country but their own careers. May was able to resign because she knew history would look upon her successor less favourably than even her.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 10:48 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 20 2019, 11:46 AM)
The whole rainbow coalition is on board, so LibDems, Greens & Plaid will also support. They reckon there’s enough votes for this amendment to pass
What that then will do to the current majority for deal -2.0 is anyone’s guess
I think any 2nd ref. will require the DUP to be on board, but given how the Conservatives have treated them I wouldn't be surprised if they actually were. To them: the Union > Brexit.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 11:11 AM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 11:48 AM)
I think any 2nd ref. will require the DUP to be on board, but given how the Conservatives have treated them I wouldn't be surprised if they actually were. To them: the Union > Brexit.
Reports from last night were that the DUP were so apocalyptic with rage about being sold down the river by the ERG and Tories in general that they were working through making that pivot. Will be an interesting week ahead I reckon. Would be the first time they’re in tune with their wider electorate in a while
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 12:11 PM
The good thing is this v a second referendum and brexshit ends one way or the other.
In fact, I think Mad May's deal should be on the referendum too. We have two hard brexshit negotiated deals with the EU.
Posted by: Harve 20th October 2019, 12:55 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 10:44 AM)
Not sure whether you are Bolsover or not, but Dennis Skinner has confirmed that he will be voting against.
Staffordshire Moorlands! A bellwether seat since 1979, held by Karen Bradley right now, but was fairly comfortably Labour in the Blair era. The area voted 65% Leave but the Labour vote is majority Remain. I don't want to vote for a Labour MP if they'll turn out like Gareth Snell and Ruth Smeeth next door in Stoke.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 02:51 PM
A full UK-wide CU amendment (tabled by Ken Clarke in April, and just 3 votes short of a majority) might be the most likely outcome next week..
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:09 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 20 2019, 11:46 AM)
Because both cared more about staying in power than they did about Brexit. They overestimated the desire for it and are afraid of losing those votes from Brexiteers. You would have thought the last GE would have opened their eyes on this however.
They care not about the country but their own careers. May was able to resign because she knew history would look upon her successor less favourably than even her.
No they both really care about DEMOCRACY and getting the will of the people done. I've heard Boris say that in fact.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:11 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 03:51 PM)
A full UK-wide CU amendment (tabled by Ken Clarke in April, and just 3 votes short of a majority) might be the most likely outcome next week..
Yes a CU would be fine for me and guess many other Brexiteers too. Anything to get us out ASAP. Has the EU agreed to one though?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:14 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 01:11 PM)
The good thing is this v a second referendum and brexshit ends one way or the other.
In fact, I think Mad May's deal should be on the referendum too. We have two hard brexshit negotiated deals with the EU.
The referendum should be this deal or no deal and that way we implement the result of the first one but find out how we want to leave. As someone said on DS earlier, if remain win the second one do you then have the best of three? Why should the result of a second referendum trump the result of the first one?
Posted by: Rooney 20th October 2019, 03:18 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 03:51 PM)
A full UK-wide CU amendment (tabled by Ken Clarke in April, and just 3 votes short of a majority) might be the most likely outcome next week..
..which is what we should have gone for all along! Keeps everyone happy, delivers on the vote and even though we are in a worse position than pre-2016 it shuts everyone up. May's problem was she pandered to the ERG too much to try and keep the Party in line.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 03:27 PM
It doesn't keep everyone happy. That would be the single market that leave banged on about remaining in.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:30 PM
Sounds like a second referendum isn't wanted by MP's as the DUP now say they don't want one.
DUP Statement
The DUP wants to 'get Brexit done' but it must be a Brexit for the whole of the United Kingdom. Our position has been clear and it has been consistent.
"DUP MPs supported the Letwin amendment as the only avenue available to properly scrutinise the deal on offer and attempt to secure changes that could address some of the concerns we have.
"It was a situation that could have been easily avoided had the Prime Minister kept to words he penned to Jean-Claude Juncker just a matter of two weeks ago.
"The DUP does not seek a second referendum; merely implementation of the first.
"The people of the United Kingdom were asked whether the UK should leave the EU, not whether Great Britain should leave Northern Ireland behind. We want to leave as one nation. That remains our goal.
"If the Prime Minister remains willing to achieve that outcome he will find DUP MPs as willing partners in that project.“"
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:38 PM
The only thing about the DUP that I do admire is that they actually want to get Brexit done but on their terms. They don't want a second referendum.
Posted by: Envoirment 20th October 2019, 03:54 PM
So basically they're pushing for a soft brexit, which will likely be Customs Union/Single Market access. Freedom of movement and having to pay into the EU budget. What was the point of leaving if that happens?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 03:59 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 20 2019, 04:54 PM)
So basically they're pushing for a soft brexit, which will likely be Customs Union/Single Market access. Freedom of movement and having to pay into the EU budget. What was the point of leaving if that happens?
Why would we have to till pay in if we've left?
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 04:03 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 20 2019, 04:54 PM)
So basically they're pushing for a soft brexit, which will likely be Customs Union/Single Market access. Freedom of movement and having to pay into the EU budget. What was the point of leaving if that happens?
That is what they should have done all alomg
People who got brainwashed by the daily fail etc, we have two in here, won't tell the difference! It's just football for them. Let them think they've won amd let the rest of us carry on as normal. We'll be back in the EU as a full member with the euro soon enough.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 04:08 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 04:59 PM)
Why would we have to till pay in if we've left?
To get access to the single market. Just like Norway does.
Posted by: blacksquare 20th October 2019, 04:25 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 04:09 PM)
No they both really care about DEMOCRACY and getting the will of the people done. I've heard Boris say that in fact.
You still haven’t quite grasped the concept of democracy.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 04:36 PM
Sky speculating that if a CU amendment is tabled and passes then Boris's deal will likely be voted down as Brexiteer MP's don't want to remain the the single market as what would have been achieved? So we'd be back to square one! Still the best option as far as I can see is Boris's deal to be passed tomorrow with no amendments. WE NEED TO GET OUT ASAP.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 04:44 PM
Not sure why I can keep that post, but why? We need to stay in ASAP!!!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 04:47 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 05:44 PM)
Not sure why I can keep that post, but why? We need to stay in ASAP!!!
Have you taken me off ignore maybe?
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 04:49 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 03:59 PM)
Why would we have to till pay in if we've left?
To have access to the things the Silas mentioned? Just like Norway pays in even though it´s not a member.
Deary me Chris
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 04:51 PM
Michael Gove has just disclosed that the government’s Operation Yellowhammer contingency plan to handle a no-deal Brexit is being triggered by the PM in consultation with other senior ministers.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 04:53 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 20 2019, 05:49 PM)
To have access to the things the Silas mentioned? Just like Norway pays in even though it´s not a member.
Deary me Chris
Very unfair. What's the point of half a Brexit then? Neither in nor really out.
May as well just stay in and get ALL the benefits that I keep being told about.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 20th October 2019, 05:00 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 05:53 PM)
May as well just stay in and get ALL the benefits that I keep being told about.
This quote shall be immortalised.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 05:00 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 04:53 PM)
May as well just stay in and get ALL the benefits.
Now you´re getting it!
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 05:02 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 04:53 PM)
Very unfair.
What NOT getting things for free?
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 05:07 PM
He finally said something sensible? Wow. Let's stay x
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:13 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 06:07 PM)
He finally said something sensible? Wow. Let's stay x
I didn't say we should stay but coming half out and still paying in is a bit stupid. We need to make clean break or stay in.
Posted by: Harve 20th October 2019, 05:14 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 02:51 PM)
A full UK-wide CU amendment (tabled by Ken Clarke in April, and just 3 votes short of a majority) might be the most likely outcome next week..
Don't know if it's possible as last time, in the spring, the Lib Dems, TIG, Caroline Lucas and the most hardcore Labour pro-Europeans voted against anything that didn't involve a second referendum/revoke. See https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/apr/01/how-did-each-mp-vote-on-the-second-round-of-indicative-votes.
Just like the 'Spartans' who want No Deal realise that they have to vote for the withdrawal agreement that they still hate, else endanger Brexit, the Remainers have to realise that this could be their last chance to amend the withdrawal agreement as Johnson's withdrawal agreement is inevitable now that there is a majority for it.
The CU amendment wasn't voted on by May's cabinet in April, most of whom would vote it down this time. But if the Lib Dems and TIG are on board, there is probably still a majority.
Also a good few dozen Tory MPs voted for the CU amendment in the indicative votes, but I doubt many would now if it's whipped, especially since we know that the Withdrawal Agreement will just pass without amendments when presented later.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 05:18 PM
The best three options are revoke, 2nd ref, or the softest brexit possible whilst telling the leavers we left lol.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:22 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 06:18 PM)
The best three options are revoke, 2nd ref, or the softest brexit possible whilst telling the leavers we left lol.
No, Boris's deal is the best and will hopefully go through tomorrow or this week. Bercow may insist they debate the Queen's Speech tomorrow as planned.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 05:24 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 05:22 PM)
No, Boris's deal is the best.
Delusional.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 05:24 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 06:22 PM)
No, Boris's deal is the best and will hopefully go through tomorrow or this week. Bercow may insist they debate the Queen's Speech tomorrow as planned.
How is it better than May's deal? Johnson himself said that no government would accept a customs border between two parts of the UK. Why has that concept changed from unthinkable to "a great deal"?
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 05:25 PM
God sake.
The deal is worse than Mad May's shit deal and is one that they BOTH said no British pm could ever accept. It is a surrender deal. Bojo's deal couldn't be the best, as Mad May's was better, but still atrocious.
Posted by: mald487 20th October 2019, 05:26 PM
Chris´ hard on for Boris is permanent. No point in trying to make him see sense.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:27 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 20 2019, 06:24 PM)
How is it better than May's deal? Johnson himself said that no government would accept a customs border between two parts of the UK. Why has that concept changed from unthinkable to "a great deal"?
It's the best we have AT THE MOMENT.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:31 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 20 2019, 06:26 PM)
Chris´ hard on for Boris is permanent. No point in trying to make him see sense.
Oh don't bring such filth in to the debate. I really admire how he's got a deal against all the odds. I see Gina Miller's slagging it off and saying it's only very slightly different to May's and Boris is trying to trick MP's to pass it.
Posted by: T Boy 20th October 2019, 05:54 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 06:27 PM)
It's the best we have AT THE MOMENT.
But it isn’t. Revoke or second referendum are so much better. I don’t know why you’re so desperate to leave so quickly.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 05:55 PM
Sounds like the EU will extend Article 50 until February 2020 if the deal (e.g. all of the legislation, as per Letwin) is not agreed by the end of this week.
(Source: Sunday Times)
Crucially, that is not enough time for a second referendum.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:56 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 20 2019, 06:54 PM)
But it isn’t. Revoke or second referendum are so much better. I don’t know why you’re so desperate to leave so quickly.
As a firm Brexiteer of course I don't want Revoke and am against a second referendum as it may result in a remain win and A50 then revoked.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 05:58 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 06:55 PM)
Sounds like the EU will extend Article 50 until February 2020 if the deal (e.g. all of the legislation, as per Letwin) is not agreed by the end of this week.
(Source: Sunday Times)
Crucially, that is not enough time for a second referendum.
Good. A second referendum wouldn't get through anyway, according to Sky. Too many Labour against it, the DUP and many Tories too. They're very admirable in thinking the first one should be honoured.
Posted by: Envoirment 20th October 2019, 06:11 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 06:55 PM)
Sounds like the EU will extend Article 50 until February 2020 if the deal (e.g. all of the legislation, as per Letwin) is not agreed by the end of this week.
(Source: Sunday Times)
Crucially, that is not enough time for a second referendum.
In the event of a second referendum, I'm 100% sure the EU would allow another extension (A second referendum would take ~6 months of preparation/planning).
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 06:12 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 04:14 PM)
The referendum should be this deal or no deal and that way we implement the result of the first one but find out how we want to leave. As someone said on DS earlier, if remain win the second one do you then have the best of three? Why should the result of a second referendum trump the result of the first one?
It’s nothing to do with “trumping” the result of the first one. (Which was actually the second one so a people’s vote would be three of three if we want to go down that route of stupid arguments)
A people’s vote merely confirms that the deal that has been negotiated is something that leavers are happy with. It would be democracy in action because there was no plan, no manifesto, no clue for what happened on June 24th 2016 if we voted leave. Further to that, as previously mentioned every single mouthpiece for the leave campaign said we’d never leave the single market or customs union. Doing exactly that can’t be the “will of the people” if the people were explicitly told it’d never happen.
I keep harping on about 2014 but the difference is stark. We had a 700+ page manual on absolutely everything that would happen. From mundane shit like stamps to serious shit like EU and NATO membership. Every single voter knew exactly what they were voting for and exactly what would happen immediately after a yes vote and over the next 2 years. Brexit didn’t have this, there was no planning or organisation or thought beyond an abstract idea. That’s why it’s been so deeply damaging and why a second referendum now we know what Brexit looks like is the fair and democratic outcome
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 20 2019, 06:55 PM)
Sounds like the EU will extend Article 50 until February 2020 if the deal (e.g. all of the legislation, as per Letwin) is not agreed by the end of this week.
(Source: Sunday Times)
Crucially, that is not enough time for a second referendum.
I’d take Feb 2020 though. Quite happily. That’s enough time for Indyref2 so should be enough time for EURef2. Don’t need a lengthy campaign really seeing as it’s all the country has focused on since 2015
Edit - thanks to Environment above!! Forgot about the required passage of enabling legislation. It’s almost fully in place for Scotland but for EURef2 we’d need to start from scratch. So yeah not long enough. Sorry!
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 06:14 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 20 2019, 07:12 PM)
It’s nothing to do with “trumping” the result of the first one. (Which was actually the second one so a people’s vote would be three of three if we want to go down that route of stupid arguments)
A people’s vote merely confirms that the deal that has been negotiated is something that leavers are happy with. It would be democracy in action because there was no plan, no manifesto, no clue for what happened on June 24th 2016 if we voted leave. Further to that, as previously mentioned every single mouthpiece for the leave campaign said we’d never leave the single market or customs union. Doing exactly that can’t be the “will of the people” if the people were explicitly told it’d never happen.
I keep harping on about 2014 but the difference is stark. We had a 700+ page manual on absolutely everything that would happen. From mundane shit like stamps to serious shit like EU and NATO membership. Every single voter knew exactly what they were voting for and exactly what would happen immediately after a yes vote and over the next 2 years. Brexit didn’t have this, there was no planning or organisation or thought beyond an abstract idea. That’s why it’s been so deeply damaging and why a second referendum now we know what Brexit looks like is the fair and democratic outcome I’d take Feb 2020 though. Quite happily. That’s enough time for Indyref2 so should be enough time for EURef2. Don’t need a lengthy campaign really seeing as it’s all the country has focused on since 2015
THIS to everything!!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:17 PM
Look, call me a broken record if you like. Am taking the dog out so won't see your replies until later. We had a decisive vote in 2016 where the UK electorate voted to leave the EU. That must be honoured. Ex PM May said that and the current PM says that as well as many MP's. So we have the decision already made to leave the EU. Okay let's now define how we want to leave: Boris's deal, all the detail and fine print explained to the voters with no lies, or NO DEAL. Remain shouldn't come in to it as it was rejected by a million votes in 2016.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:19 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 20 2019, 07:14 PM)
THIS to everything!!
Except they say it takes 20 weeks to organise a referendum so Feb. 2020 isn't enough time.
Posted by: T Boy 20th October 2019, 06:31 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 07:17 PM)
Look, call me a broken record if you like. Am taking the dog out so won't see your replies until later. We had a decisive vote in 2016 where the UK electorate voted to leave the EU. That must be honoured. Ex PM May said that and the current PM says that as well as many MP's. So we have the decision already made to leave the EU. Okay let's now define how we want to leave: Boris's deal, all the detail and fine print explained to the voters with no lies, or NO DEAL. Remain shouldn't come in to it as it was rejected by a million votes in 2016.
52% is hardly decisive. We have gained NEW INFORMATION since then that means we will be much worse off outside of the EU. We have 3 years worth of the voting population that never got a say the first time. It seems you only see this as winning or losing but to those of us with at least 10th of a brain, it’s not a game. It’s our lives and we should be able to have a say on this deal.
If people choose to leave even after all this, fine, but the union will break up and when Boris forces you into work, I don’t want to hear you complain. I know you have depression but your naive if you think that makes a difference to him.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:43 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 20 2019, 07:31 PM)
when Boris forces you into work, I don’t want to hear you complain. I know you have depression but your naive if you think that makes a difference to him.
Sorry but he doesn't have the final say. The DWP has tried to stop my disability benefits three times now and they've always been overruled on appeal. Even the "evil" Tories wouldn't dare deny us the right of appeal to a judicial tribunal headed by a judge.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 20th October 2019, 06:46 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 07:43 PM)
Sorry but he doesn't have the final say. The DWP has tried to stop my disability benefits three times now and they've always been overruled on appeal. Even the "evil" Tories wouldn't dare deny us the right of appeal to a judicial tribunal headed by a judge.
Yet you continually throw your support behind these people who WANT and are TRYING to do this to you. Where's the sense? Where's the logic?
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 06:48 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 06:31 PM)
Oh don't bring such filth in to the debate. I really admire how he's got a deal against all the odds. I see Gina Miller's slagging it off and saying it's only very slightly different to May's and Boris is trying to trick MP's to pass it.
What is to be admired when his deal is worse than the previous one? This is like a union leader negotiating a 5% pay increase which gets rejected by the members coming back with a new deal worth only a 3% rise and claiming a triumph.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:49 PM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Oct 20 2019, 07:46 PM)
Yet you continually throw your support behind these people who WANT and are TRYING to do this to you. Where's the sense? Where's the logic?
I think the Tory policy of weeding out scroungers is correct. There are thousands apparently pretending they have bad backs when they haven't. My parents knew one guy, bad back but was out sequence dancing every weekend. Yes they are making mistakes, my case is one, but we have a safety net of a second re-consideration by another DWP office first then a tribunal if that fails. If you're not faking illness or disability you have nothing to fear was said by one minister.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:49 PM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Oct 20 2019, 07:46 PM)
Yet you continually throw your support behind these people who WANT and are TRYING to do this to you. Where's the sense? Where's the logic?
I think the Tory policy of weeding out scroungers is correct. There are thousands apparently pretending they have bad backs when they haven't. Yes they are making mistakes, my case is one, but we have a safety net of a second re-consideration by another DWP office first then a tribunal. If you're not faking illness or disability you have nothing to fear was said by one minister.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 06:51 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 20 2019, 07:48 PM)
What is to be admired when his deal is worse than the previous one? This is like a union leader negotiating a 5% pay increase which gets rejected by the members coming back with a new deal worth only a 3% rise and claiming a triumph.
Well as Miller is a remainer obviously she'll rubbish his deal. She claims lawyers have agreed with her but won't name them. She says about 4 lines only are different to May's deal and that MP'S are about to be duped. She says that basically they'll be passing May's deal if they do this week.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 07:51 PM)
Well as Miller is a remainer obviously she'll rubbish his deal. She claims lawyers have agreed with her but won't name them. She says about 4 lines only are different to May's deal and that MP'S are about to be duped. She says that basically they'll be passing May's deal if they do this week.
So explain how it is better than May's deal then. Come on, I'm dying to hear.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:04 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 20 2019, 07:58 PM)
So explain how it is better than May's deal then. Come on, I'm dying to hear.
May not be better but hey we've moved on and something needs to happen now. Do we go on with extensions for 5 years, 10 years?
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 07:07 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:04 PM)
May not be better but hey we've moved on and something needs to happen now. Do we go on with extensions for 5 years, 10 years?
So why should MPs vote for a deal that is worse than the one they have already rejected? The whole idea is utterly ridiculous. And why are you praising the lying git who has "negotiated" this worse deal?
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 07:08 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:07 PM)
I am not trolling. I said that her receiving threats is awful and deplorable didn't I. If she hadn't started all this legal stuff though she wouldn't have received them would she? That's a fact.
And it is still a case of blaming the victim.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 07:08 PM
Why not? We have been perfectly happy as an EU member for DECADES. Ignore the press. Extend indefinitely.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 07:12 PM
IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE'S WILL. WE HAVE REPEATED THAT 100S OF TIMES. 100S OF TIMES. STOP TROLLING.
Posted by: Calum 20th October 2019, 07:13 PM
Obviously Chris won't be warned though, why would he be?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:13 PM
Wait a minute T Boy. You're saying no-one's actions should have consequences then. So if I go out now and murder someone and end up in jail people can't say he suffered the consequences.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:14 PM
QUOTE(Calum @ Oct 20 2019, 08:13 PM)
Obviously Chris won't be warned though, why would he be?
I have been warned in the past. I'm trying to debate here.
Posted by: T Boy 20th October 2019, 07:15 PM
You’re equating her actions to murder! This trolling knows no bounds!
She shouldn’t be punished for doing what she believes to be right, especially since it’s not illegal.
Posted by: Calum 20th October 2019, 07:18 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:14 PM)
I have been warned in the past. I'm trying to debate here.
Hardly. You're probably sitting chuckling to yourself while you come away with comments such as a politician doing her job while not pleasing some people means she has brought whatever happens to her on herself?
Absolutely disgusting.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:18 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 20 2019, 08:15 PM)
You’re equating her actions to murder! This trolling knows no bounds!
She shouldn’t be punished for doing what she believes to be right, especially since it’s not illegal.
No that was just an example and not a very good one I admit.
Oh sod it, am going to bed. Let the remainers win. Don't care any more. Won't be here long anyway with my health and the amount of unhealthy food and cider I'm consuming every week, close to 200 units.
You won't need to ban me as I'll be gone soon which is what I want and have done since my daughter died. Sorry folks won't bother you again. My GP said last week that she's worried I'll have a fatal heart attack and I told her I hope so.
Posted by: Botchia 20th October 2019, 07:20 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:00 PM)
Miller really needs to get a hobby, if anyone does, and stop meddling in the will of the people. I don't agree with the death threats she's received over the years and all the security she's had to install in her house, steel doors, bomb proof letter-box, panic alarms to nearest cop shop etc etc but she's brought it all on herself. Wonder if she thinks it's all been worth it. She's had messages saying she'd better look over shoulder for as long as she lives. I wouldn't like to live like that.
Wow...
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:23 PM
QUOTE(Calum @ Oct 20 2019, 08:18 PM)
Hardly. You're probably sitting chuckling to yourself while you come away with comments such as a politician doing her job while not pleasing some people means she has brought whatever happens to her on herself?
Absolutely disgusting.
She's not a politician. Is she an MP or Lady?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:24 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Oct 20 2019, 08:15 PM)
She shouldn’t be punished for doing what she believes to be right, especially since it’s not illegal.
Agree totally but you can see why people react to her the way they do as she's trying to frustrate Brexit.
Posted by: Calum 20th October 2019, 07:25 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:23 PM)
She's not a politician. Is she an MP or Lady?
I don't really care what she does for work (at least she can be arsed going out to work x). It doesn't make your comments any less vile.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 07:46 PM
Seems like the best chance of Boris getting his deal through was on Saturday. Could be far more difficult now if amendments are added. Has Boris made a huge mistake by not having the vote yesterday?
I am not blaming her Suedy. I have said the threats she has received, which I read about this weekend, absolutely terrible they are, what Brexiteers want to do to her. They think they're justified as she's trying to block the people's will though.
"You reap what you sow" were your words. That sounds very much like you're blaming her.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th October 2019, 08:10 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 20 2019, 08:14 PM)
I have been warned in the past. I'm trying to debate here.
No. You are trolling Chris. Either actually contribute to the debate or leave please.
You cannot seriously hold that opinion, I just won't think it of you.
Posted by: Envoirment 20th October 2019, 09:06 PM
Chris has been trolling for ages. He's even admitted it in one post before. http://www.buzzjack.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=225742&view=findpost&p=6348184 ("Bigger troll here than me").
I'm surprised he's lasted as long as he has on here. On most other boards he would've been gone ages ago.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 20th October 2019, 09:09 PM
All the other sites have banned him.
Posted by: Suedehead2 20th October 2019, 09:23 PM
Please stick to the subject in hand rather than second guessing the mods.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 09:56 PM
Hopefully that’s embedded ok. That’s a really good thread from Sky News’ political correspondent on what’s in store this week. I’ve read a fair few of his threads recently, does a good job of cutting through the spin and not parroting the government line
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 20th October 2019, 10:05 PM
Am sure I posted a link to Lewis Goodall's Twitter earlier this evening. It is a good Twitter thread and cuts through any bullcrap and just assesses the way forward now.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 20th October 2019, 11:01 PM
Aaah yes just clocked that now. Sorry Chris.
If you put the long string of numbers from the twitter URL into [] that have twitter in them like this:
CODE
[twitter]12345678900987654321[/twitter]
You’ll be able to embed the tweet itself and makes it a bit easier for us all not to miss it as sometimes links don’t display fully and are easily scrolled past
Posted by: Calum 21st October 2019, 10:46 AM
THIS WOMAN *.*
Posted by: blacksquare 21st October 2019, 10:48 AM
What a week this is going to be
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 21st October 2019, 11:30 AM
They are so so CORRUPT!
Also, Daily Hate is down 13% in print and 19% online!
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 02:28 PM
Unsurprisingly, the story about Mogg and Leadsom is now being questioned. It is being claimed that various high-profile Leave supporters such as Kate Hoey and Bill Cash walked out of parliament to jeers from Remain supporters but nothing more threatening than that. Other MPs left in cars with tinted windows. The fact that they feel the need to have tinted windows is, of course, highly regrettable.
Mogg and Leadsom, OTOH, left accompanied by a group of police officers. They were subjected to the same jeers that other MPs faced. No violence or threats, just jeers.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 02:44 PM
Bercow's refused to allow the vote on Boris's deal today. Had a go at Rees-Mogg too. Government is fuming.
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 02:53 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 03:44 PM)
Bercow's refused to allow the vote on Boris's deal today. Had a go at Rees-Mogg too. Government is fuming.
He is merely being consistent with his ruling earlier this year.
Perhaps once this shambles is over, people will begin to agree that a written constitution would be a good idea. Until that happens, we will continue to see Speakers forced to interpret the rules as best they can.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 02:56 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 21 2019, 03:53 PM)
He is merely being consistent with his ruling earlier this year.
Perhaps once this shambles is over, people will begin to agree that a written constitution would be a good idea. Until that happens, we will continue to see Speakers forced to interpret the rules as best they can.
The bill was debated on Saturday but wasn't VOTED ON and that's why the Government's calling his decision in to question. They say they're not asking for a full debate but just basically the vote.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 21st October 2019, 03:00 PM
Yes!! Has everyone seen? Bercrow has scuppered the evil deal and stopped the Machiavellian machinations of Bojo and puppet master in their tracks! Vile slimy government of hard right liars.
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 03:01 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 03:56 PM)
The bill was debated on Saturday but wasn't VOTED ON and that's why the Government's calling his decision in to question. They say they're not asking for a full debate but just basically the vote.
Which just proves my point. In the absence of written rules, a Speaker just has to interpret vague principles and precedent.
Posted by: Calum 21st October 2019, 03:07 PM
QUOTE
John Bercow replies to Mr Jenkin, saying that he can't count "the number of times I have granted urgent questions and emergency debates of people who were then called a Eurosceptic position, now called a Brexiteer position".
He continues: "I don't recall the honourable gentleman complaining that I was giving him too many opportunities to make his point.
"He's grumbling now because he doesn't like the judgment.
"I'm trying to do the right thing for the House as a whole."
give it to them Bercow *.*
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 03:12 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 21 2019, 04:01 PM)
Which just proves my point. In the absence of written rules, a Speaker just has to interpret vague principles and precedent.
Yes there should be set rules. As is being said now his rulings always seem to go against the Government whether he's intending that or not. There should be rules clearly defined for such matters so that it's not up to one man to decide.
Bercow says he's taken advice earlier from Parliamentary experts and believe his decision is right.
Posted by: Calum 21st October 2019, 03:31 PM
QUOTE
Speaking in the Commons, Mr Bercow said he came to the decision on the basis of a parliamentary convention dating back to 1604.
He cited Parliament's rulebook, Erskine May, which says a motion that is the same "in substance" as a previous one cannot be brought back to the Commons during the course of a single parliamentary session.
The Speaker also said the circumstances around the motion had not changed, so his ruling was "necessary... to ensure the sensible use of the House's time and proper respect for the decisions that it takes".
He's taken the most reasonable course of action and it's yet another setback for BoJo. Accept, move on, find another way to try and destroy the country x
Posted by: Mack. 21st October 2019, 03:40 PM
I'm surprised Mr Bercow is still the 'Speaker' to be honest.
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 03:43 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 04:12 PM)
Yes there should be set rules. As is being said now his rulings always seem to go against the Government whether he's intending that or not. There should be rules clearly defined for such matters so that it's not up to one man to decide.
Bercow says he's taken advice earlier from Parliamentary experts and believe his decision is right.
When he stood for the position (while Labour were in power) he said he would stand up for the rights of backbenchers even if it inconvenienced the government.
Posted by: blacksquare 21st October 2019, 03:46 PM
The media, and politicians, really need to do a better job of explaining exactly what is happening and how Brexit isn't suddenly finished with the passing of this deal
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 21st October 2019, 03:55 PM
Why would the one party state media do that? They are purposefully doing it to set it up as a big victory for the Etonian blustering aristocratic evil Tory turd.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 21st October 2019, 06:04 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 03:56 PM)
The bill was debated on Saturday but wasn't VOTED ON and that's why the Government's calling his decision in to question. They say they're not asking for a full debate but just basically the vote.
Actually. It was voted on. The amendment that was successfully voted through passed the resolution as amended. Which is that the house withholds consent until the legislation is published and debated. To do anything else is a shameless abandonment of basic democratic principles
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 21st October 2019, 06:06 PM
Did we all see today the joint letter from the Scottish & Welsh Governments about legislative consent motions and sufficient time to handle them and properly debate the legislation so please just be a grown up and sort the extension.
They also sent a signed letter to the EU, signed because they’re not children
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 21st October 2019, 06:16 PM
Sending two letters was cringeworthy and embarrassing. Bojo should resign. Not fit for office.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 07:47 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 21 2019, 07:16 PM)
Sending two letters was cringeworthy and embarrassing. Bojo should resign. Not fit for office.
I admit he can act a bit petulant and childish. I'm a bit like that. People say I never grew up and maybe he's the same. He's still a loveable rogue and buffoon though. As an MP said today, no-one can say his Premiership is boring as you don't know what he'll do next or what gaffe is coming.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 07:47 PM
DELETED. Double post again.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 21st October 2019, 08:00 PM
That's the danger of Boris, the perception of "nice, foolish Boris" when he's actually evil to the core and incredibly dangerous.
(Or I suppose would be if he had a working majority).
I agree with your other point though!
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 08:02 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 08:47 PM)
I admit he can act a bit petulant and childish. I'm a bit like that. People say I never grew up and maybe he's the same. He's still a loveable rogue and buffoon though. As an MP said today, no-one can say his Premiership is boring as you don't know what he'll do next or what gaffe is coming.
Those are not really the qualities I want to see in the PM at any time, let alone a time like this. Not that there is anything loveable about Johnson.
Posted by: Trick Or Queef! 21st October 2019, 08:06 PM
LOVABLE?!
HE IS VILE!!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 08:26 PM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Oct 21 2019, 09:00 PM)
That's the danger of Boris, the perception of "nice, foolish Boris" when he's actually evil to the core and incredibly dangerous.
I wouldn't go so far as to say he's evil. A bit foolish, childish and obstinate maybe and hates being beaten on anything. Rumours are that he has a nasty temper and F's and blinds and was ranting and raving about such as the DUP in No.10 the other day with staff getting a bit scared when he gets angry. Hate is a very strong word though. I'm sure he has some compassion as everyone has. If he was really evil I doubt he'd have got as far as he has in real life as it would show. Am not just defending him blindly anymore as Admin say I do, but he did win two Mayoral elections, was elected an MP twice, became Foreign Secretary, and elected party leader and PM by the Tory membership.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 08:39 PM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Oct 21 2019, 09:00 PM)
(Or I suppose would be if he had a working majority).
Which he could have after the next election. Latest polls predict a Tory majority of 50-60. Not a huge majority but okay.
Posted by: Kath 21st October 2019, 08:49 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 08:47 PM)
He's still a loveable rogue and buffoon though.
He is NOT a lovable rogue / buffoon - he is an irritating git!
Posted by: Suedehead2 21st October 2019, 09:07 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 09:26 PM)
I wouldn't go so far as to say he's evil. A bit foolish, childish and obstinate maybe and hates being beaten on anything. Rumours are that he has a nasty temper and F's and blinds and was ranting and raving about such as the DUP in No.10 the other day with staff getting a bit scared when he gets angry. Hate is a very strong word though. I'm sure he has some compassion as everyone has. If he was really evil I doubt he'd have got as far as he has in real life as it would show. Am not just defending him blindly anymore as Admin say I do, but he did win two Mayoral elections, was elected an MP twice, became Foreign Secretary, and elected party leader and PM by the Tory membership.
He started his second mayoral campaign as the clear favourite but only won by a whisker. He has only been elected as an MP in rock-solid Tory seats. Even there, he saw his majority slashed at the last election.
Gordon Brown had a reputation for being short-tempered and was crucified for it by the press. Funny how they ignore it when it comes to Johnson.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 09:25 PM
Okay folks here's the bill in full. All 109 pages. Will any MP wade through all that?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 10:56 PM
Sky say there's still a way that Boris, as PM with backing of the UK Cabinet, and that's crucial, could take us out on 31st with no deal, Benn Act or not. He could declare a State Of Emergency for the UK which would mean troops on the street, Parliament suspended and curfews. We'd just crash out then. The Brexit Sec. Stephen Barclay still saying tonight that we'll leave on 31st which now seems impossible.
Posted by: Rooney 21st October 2019, 11:01 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 21 2019, 11:56 PM)
Sky say there's still a way that Bori, as PM with backing of the UK Cabinet, and that's crucial, could take us out on 31st with no deal, Benn Act or not. He could declare a State Of Emergency for the UK which would mean troops on the street, Parliament suspended and curfews. We'd just crash out then.
There's more chance of you becoming Prime Minister Chris than that happening, let's be honest. That's straight out of Cumming's wet dream fantasasial nonsense.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 11:03 PM
I agree as he'd need a very good reason ie a war, to declare a State Of Emergency. Wouldn't put anything past Boris now though.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 21st October 2019, 11:09 PM
I’m sure that would survive a court challenge about as well as any of the other stunts he’s attempted. An affront to democracy and decency that that is what is being briefed to the press.
I hate to invoke Godwin’s law but this is all coming up Adolf. Absolutely terrifying to watch our country slide into this horrific place
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 21st October 2019, 11:14 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 12:09 AM)
I’m sure that would survive a court challenge about as well as any of the other stunts he’s attempted. An affront to democracy and decency that that is what is being briefed to the press.
I hate to invoke Godwin’s law but this is all coming up Adolf. Absolutely terrifying to watch our country slide into this horrific place
Would there even be any court sittings in the event of martial law though?. Everything apparently would grind to a halt.
Posted by: vidcapper 22nd October 2019, 04:47 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 12:09 AM)
I’m sure that would survive a court challenge about as well as any of the other stunts he’s attempted. An affront to democracy and decency that that is what is being briefed to the press.
I hate to invoke Godwin’s law but this is all coming up Adolf. Absolutely terrifying to watch our country slide into this horrific place
We wouldn't be doing so if parliament respected the referendum result...
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 08:15 AM
After publishing the Bill last night, the government gave MPs just three hours to table amendments. They are also still refusing to publish the economic assessments. Once again, they are doing an excellent job of demonstrating their contempt for due democratic process.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 08:24 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 09:15 AM)
After publishing the Bill last night, the government gave MPs just three hours to table amendments. They are also still refusing to publish the economic assessments. Once again, they are doing an excellent job of demonstrating their contempt for due democratic process.
As a Tory Brexiteer MP said on Sky News earlier when pushed to answer by Kay Burley, they can't say what will happen until Brexit happens. She said they're holding nothing back but it's like anything in life, no-one has a crystal ball.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 08:49 AM
A business doesn’t take action that will have significant consequences without assessing, as much as it can, the risks (particularly economic risks) that the action will bring.
Action should not be taken until sight has been had of the estimate of the risks it will bring.
You can’t wonder into something blind and just ‘deal with it as it comes’.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 08:50 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 09:24 AM)
As a Tory Brexiteer MP said on Sky News earlier when pushed to answer by Kay Burley, they can't say what will happen until Brexit happens. She said they're holding nothing back but it's like anything in life, no-one has a crystal ball.
They are holding something back. They aren't publishing the economic assessments. They are also trying to get the Commons to pass one of the most important pieces of legislation in our lifetime (and I refer specifically to those of us who are near the end of our sixth decade) in just a few days.
Posted by: Harve 22nd October 2019, 09:43 AM
Stephen Bush's Morning Call is grim this morning:
QUOTE
Good morning. The government has published the Withdrawal Agreement Bill, giving MPs (and the rest of us) less than 24 hours to read it before voting begins. As such, while there may be some vital bits and pieces that I have missed, here's what look to me to be the bits that might cause the Bill to come unstuck:
1) The clauses confirming the continued primacy of EU law during the transition period - there is a meaningless section later down the bill designed to mollify any worried Brexiteers but it does not change the meaning of this part. However, if I were them I'd grin and bear it because....
2) There is nothing of substance in this bill to allow MPs to prevent a no-deal exit at the end of October 2020 and as written it does an excellent job of making the parliamentary manoeuvres that prevented a no-deal exit in March and October signficantly harder. Coupled to pre-existing mechanisms in the transition period agreed by Theresa May, to stop a no-deal exit at the end of next year, the UK would have to agree an extension with the EU in July of 2020 - and, because the EU enters a new budgetary period at the end of 2020, that would involve a huge financial commitment, something that Parliament cannot do without the co-operation of the executive.
3) The scant ability given to Parliament to scrutinise the free trade agreement negotiations. Ministers will be required to provide updates to Parliament, but that's it. Given the difficulty of of preventing a no deal Brexit, as it stands, if MPs vote this through unamended this will be the last meaningful vote they cast as far as the final shape of Brexit is concerned - it will be a choice between whatever Johnson negotiates or no deal.
4) The attempt to codify parts of the future declaration - the non-binding parts of the exit deal that cover the EU and UK's aspirations for the future relationship - which would put the UK on course for a low-alignment, low-trade, high regulatory divergence Brexit as envisaged by the Conservative party's most committed Brexiteers. (See? I said there was a good reason to just grin and bear the sections about the primacy of EU law during the transition.)
There are two votes to watch today: the first, the Bill's second reading (a bill gets its first reading when it is introduced into the House - second reading is the first time it is voted on and traditionally a time for MPs to indicate whether they broadly assent to the thrust of the Bill) which is likely to produce a majority unless something goes very wrong for the government.
It's the vote on the programme motion (the procedure which sets the amount of time put aside to scrutinise a bill) that is worth watching. The various problems MPs will have with the bill make it harder to justify voting for it to be debated on the government's timetable if you are a Labour rebel, not least because if you still hope to have a future within the Labour party, it's difficult enough to justify voting for Boris Johnson's Brexit deal, but doing so in a manner that means he achieves his 31 October deadline only compounds the offence.
But what may cause those Labour rebels to do it anyway is this: that these items of the bill, particularly that last part about enshrining the future relationship into law, look designed to produce a confrontation with Parliament. Despite having got a deal, the government looks like it is still desperately seeking dissolution-by-Parliament so that it can fight the 'Save Brexit' election it craves. Labour MPs might yet decide that denying them that is a price worth paying for voting through a very hard Brexit.
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd October 2019, 10:55 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 09:15 AM)
After publishing the Bill last night, the government gave MPs just three hours to table amendments. They are also still refusing to publish the economic assessments. Once again, they are doing an excellent job of demonstrating their contempt for due democratic process.
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd October 2019, 12:31 PM
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 21 2019, 04:55 PM)
Why would the one party state media do that? They are purposefully doing it to set it up as a big victory for the Etonian blustering aristocratic evil Tory turd.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/ is a great, and worrying, article on that
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 12:42 PM
And there we have it. We live in a proto-dictatorship following the Nazi propaganda strategy. They have their very own Ministry of Truth in no.10.
The BBTory is not challenging it in any way and just going along with it. Cameron put Tories in positions of power at the BBTory. They are very uncritical of the Tory message, but just watch how they interrupt Labour mps. Are people still going to call it unbiased?
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 12:51 PM
Note that Peter Oborne would probably threaten to sue anyone who accused him of being remotely left-wing. He is about as Tory as they come.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 12:53 PM
Omfg!! That is an important piece of information. If people on the right wing are saying the same as the left about how our media is now just pro government propaganda and cheerleaders, we have a serious, serious problem. I told you this before Bojo got into office and now it has got even worse. How is democracy supposed to work with a one party state media?
Posted by: Tones and Iz 22nd October 2019, 01:08 PM
Very good article. It's been worrying me for some time how eager the BBC and other news broadcasters, but especially the BBC, are so keen to parrot No 10 statements without question. Even if they don't agree, it's doing the government's PR for them.
I think the entire BBC political team could do with a shakeup.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 01:10 PM
They should sack all of them and replace the entire BBTory management that Cameron brought it.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 02:41 PM
Remember Dominic Raab's confession when he was in charge of DExEU that he didn't realise Dover-Calais was an important trade route? His successor Steve Barclay has finally put in his bid to be considered even dimmer than Raab. He told the Commons yesterday that the withdrawal agreement would not mean that companies would need to complete documentation to move goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Soon afterwards, he had to return and admit that he was wrong.
We also have Labour MPs saying they will vote for the deal while also admitting they haven't read it or read the government's Bill. Just as well it's not anything important, eh?
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 02:47 PM
Anyone who thought this government's arrogance had reached its limit needs to think again.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 02:59 PM
From BBC News
The government will abandon its Brexit bill if MPs vote down its three-day timetable to get it through Parliament.
Boris Johnson told MPs if the programme was rejected and the EU confirmed a delay to the 31 October exit, he would instead push for a general election.
The PM said Parliament had been "caught in a deadlock of its own making", and he would "in no way allow months more of this".
But opposition MPs called the threat to pull the bill "childish blackmail".
The Withdrawal Agreement Bill was published on Monday night and MPs are now debating it in the Commons.
They will vote at around 19:00 BST on the proposed timetable.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 03:01 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Oct 22 2019, 12:01 AM)
There's more chance of you becoming Prime Minister Chris than that happening, let's be honest.
I'd shake up this country if I was PM. Think I once posted my Manifesto on DS and got banned for it's contents.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 03:05 PM
The i newspaper mentioned a potential difficulty with a December election ,beyond the fact that it won't be popular with voters. Lots of venues which would normally be used as polling stations and for the count will have been booked for Christmas events months ago. In some places (such as villages) there will be no alternative venues available. Even the portacabins that are often used are more likely to be fully booked.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 03:16 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 04:05 PM)
The i newspaper mentioned a potential difficulty with a December election ,beyond the fact that it won't be popular with voters. Lots of venues which would normally be used as polling stations and for the count will have been booked for Christmas events months ago. In some places (such as villages) there will be no alternative venues available. Even the portacabins that are often used are more likely to be fully booked.
Yeah I posted about that at the weekend. Seems that December would be very difficult. Has there ever been a December election?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 03:20 PM
Boris's threat to pull the bill has worked on Oliver Letwin who was going to vote against tonight but now says he'll vote for it. Others may follow.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 03:27 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 04:20 PM)
Boris's threat to pull the bill has worked on Oliver Letwin who was going to vote against tonight but now says he'll vote for it. Others may follow.
Another spineless Tory.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 03:44 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 03:47 PM)
Anyone who thought this government's arrogance had reached its limit needs to think again.
What an absolute TWAT MEGA!! Oh mt GOD! People vote for that?! He obviouslt believes he is a king, born to rule. VILE.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 04:00 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 04:27 PM)
Another spineless Tory.
No he doesn't want the bill pulled completely.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 04:04 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 04:27 PM)
Another spineless Tory.
Spineless and weak
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 04:14 PM
Downing Street's parliamentary adviser said in the spring that the Withdrawal Bill should get about 20 days' debate in the Commons. Perhaps Johnson (and Letwin) could explain why three days is now sufficient.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 04:20 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 05:14 PM)
Downing Street's parliamentary adviser said in the spring that the Withdrawal Bill should get about 20 days' debate in the Commons. Perhaps Johnson (and Letwin) could explain why three days is now sufficient.
Well maybe, just maybe, and I know you lot here don't understand or want to accept this, they want to carry out the will of the electorate and get us out of the EU by 31st October.
Boris wants to keep his promise. Did anyone see the Express headline today? It included the figures "17.4 million"
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 04:23 PM
October 31 is an artificial date.
This is our future. It should be scrutinised effectively rather than rushed through and facing the consequences later when the poorest will be hit hardest.
We won't be out of the EU on October 31. There are transitional arrangements. This is just the start of the whole process of leaving.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 04:24 PM
If he wanted a deal, there's no need to pull it for no reason other than an artificial date. This is just a game to him and we are his pawns.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 04:28 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 22 2019, 05:24 PM)
If he wanted a deal, there's no need to pull it for no reason other than an artificial date. This is just a game to him and we are his pawns.
He'll pull it apparently because he's lost patience with Parliament and I don't blame him. A man can only be pushed too far before he snaps. He's done his best to get a reasonable deal for the country and even some Tory MP's in the debate that I'm listening to now, have said it's better than May's deal. MP's voted to invoke A50 and they've just played about ever since. They don't want a deal but don't want no deal.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 04:30 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:28 PM)
He'll pull it apparently because he's lost patience with Parliament and I don't blame him. He's done his best to get a reasonable deal for the country and even some Tory MP's in the debate that I'm listening to now, has said it's better than May's deal. MP's voted to invoke A50 and they've just played about ever since. They don't want a deal but don't want no deal.
Well if he's confident in his deal, he should be confident the bill holding up to scrutiny.
Are you aware of how Parliament works? It scrutinises legislation, that's its purpose. It has to scrutinise a bill that brings the biggest change to the UK for a long, long time.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 04:33 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 22 2019, 05:30 PM)
Well if he's confident in his deal, he should be confident the bill holding up to scrutiny.
Are you aware of how Parliament works? It scrutinises legislation, that's its purpose. It has to scrutinise a bill that brings the biggest change to the UK for a long, long time.
Yes I'm quite aware of how it works and Boris thinks that 3 days is ample time to debate this.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 04:34 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:33 PM)
Yes I'm quite aware of how it works and Boris thinks that 3 days is ample time to debate this.
He may think that but we don't live in a dictatorship.
Three days is not long enough for something that holds significant consequences that was only published last night.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 05:07 PM
NO TO BOJO'S DICTATOESHIP!! NO TO HIS NAZI PROPAGANDA LINE WERRL ERRF PERRRPLE!! NO TO THE LIE THAT 17.4 MILLION IS A MAJORITY OF THE COUNTEY OE THAT THE NUMBER IS STILL 17.4 MILLION!! NO TO THIS BREXSHIT FOR GHOSTS!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 05:25 PM
Haven't heard that before. BREXIT FOR GHOSTS.
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd October 2019, 05:28 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:20 PM)
Well maybe, just maybe, and I know you lot here don't understand or want to accept this, they want to carry out the will of the electorate and get us out of the EU by 31st October.
Boris wants to keep his promise. Did anyone see the Express headline today? It included the figures "17.4 million"
Well maybe, just maybe, you'll actually listen to what people are attempting to explain to you.
There is no 'will of the people' when the people are divided as ever. Leavers can't even agree on what they want. Nigel Farage, of all people, doesn't want this deal and would rather delay. The other half of the country is obviously not on board. It's not as simple as you like to pretend.
Focus groups show that people think this agreement is the end of Brexit — Brexit doesn't end on the 31 of October either way. 'Get Brexit Done' is purposefully misleading and there is a complete misunderstanding of the situation — it's simply the beginning of a transition period. This agreement isn't even as complex as future trade negotiations will be.
The entire premise of a confirmatory vote is that it would very decisively decide what the people actually want. There would be no room for interpretation. People are more informed. It's not democracy to force something through that such a large number of the country don't want — including leavers themselves. I would accept it if the people actually voted for this deal, but they haven't.
I know — it has been years (if the government had a more centrist approach from the beginning then this wouldn't be happening), but this bill has existed for just a few days. MPs only received it last night. There has been no economic assessment released. The most important decision for generations shouldn't be decided in less time than how to handle salmon in suspicious circumstances.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 05:37 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:20 PM)
Well maybe, just maybe, and I know you lot here don't understand or want to accept this, they want to carry out the will of the electorate and get us out of the EU by 31st October.
Boris wants to keep his promise. Did anyone see the Express headline today? It included the figures "17.4 million"
And maybe, just maybe, it would be a good idea to get it right.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 05:38 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:28 PM)
He'll pull it apparently because he's lost patience with Parliament and I don't blame him. A man can only be pushed too far before he snaps. He's done his best to get a reasonable deal for the country and even some Tory MP's in the debate that I'm listening to now, have said it's better than May's deal. MP's voted to invoke A50 and they've just played about ever since. They don't want a deal but don't want no deal.
That will be the parliament he wanted to close down for five weeks. Or do you mean a different parliament?
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 05:40 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 05:33 PM)
Yes I'm quite aware of how it works and Boris thinks that 3 days is ample time to debate this.
Of course he does, but so what? Parliament is sovereign, not the PM or his unelected bureaucrat sidekick.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 05:44 PM
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 22nd October 2019, 06:05 PM
Not even dignifying Chris’ verbal diarrhoea with a response. It’s not worth wasting the braincells
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 22 2019, 03:47 PM)
Anyone who thought this government's arrogance had reached its limit needs to think again.
Saw that very late last night and I’m still pure raging. Nicely sums up the tory attitude to Scotland. Bet that’s in the indie campaign party broadcast
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:07 PM
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:16 PM
Excellent majority for Boris. 329-299 Majority of 30.
Second vote now on the progress motion. In plain English they must vote for is the timing okay or too short. Fingers crossed they agree that it's okay. DUP abstaining on this.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 22nd October 2019, 06:21 PM
Sky says the DUP are voting it down. Shambles if they abstain the f***ing dinosaurs
3 days to debate this is a disgusting disgrace. Anyone who supports that decision should take a good long hard look at themselves
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 06:21 PM
Congrats he won a vote, quite the rarity for him. It shows he shouldn’t withdraw if if the timetable should be extended then.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:21 PM
Time to deselect and bar any Labour candidate from ever standing again who votes for this dictatorial shitshow.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:23 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 22 2019, 07:21 PM)
Time to deselect and bar any Labour candidate from ever standing again who votes for this dictatorial shitshow.
They want to get Brexit done and fulfil the will of the electorate. Country before themselves. They are to be admired.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:27 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 07:21 PM)
Sky says the DUP are voting it down. Shambles if they abstain the f***ing dinosaurs
3 days to debate this is a disgusting disgrace. Anyone who supports that decision should take a good long hard look at themselves
As one MP said, as the Bill's not that much different to May's, a lot of the detail's the same so they should have read it before now, months ago! No excuses really. They can stay up a couple of nights. I read a lot of it until 2am last night. Seems fine to me.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 06:28 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:27 PM)
As one MP said, as the Bill's not that much different to May's, a lot of the detail's the same so they should have read it before now, months ago! No excuses really. They can stay up a couple of nights. I read a lot of it until 2am last night. Seems fine to me.
There was never any legislation published for May.
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd October 2019, 06:34 PM
Thank god.
Posted by: Envoirment 22nd October 2019, 06:35 PM
Thank goodness that MPs rejected the timetable.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:35 PM
Shame. Delay again.
Boris preparing for a no deal outcome and pausing the passage of the bill.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:36 PM
Yes!!! GET THIS MAD DICTSTOR OUT
HIS DELA IS f***IN SHITE AND ALL ABOUT UNDOING WORKER PROTECTIONS AND GETTING A NO DEAL NEXT YEAR!!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:37 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 22 2019, 07:36 PM)
Yes!!! GET THIS MAD DICTSTOR OUT
HIS DELA IS f***IN SHITE AND ALL ABOUT UNDOING WORKER PROTECTIONS AND GETTING A NO DEAL NEXT YEAR!!
MP's just voted for the deal though Michael but they wanted longer to scrutinise the detail We're leaving eventually. Get over it.
Posted by: Liаm 22nd October 2019, 06:37 PM
Taxi for Boris
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 06:38 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:35 PM)
Shame. Delay again.
Boris preparing for a no deal outcome and pausing the passage of the bill.
Can you explain the rationale behind this (without using propoganda buzz words regurgitated from the Conservatives/Brexit party) when Johnson has just won his first vote where MPs backed the deal at the first stage.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:38 PM
QUOTE(Liаm @ Oct 22 2019, 07:37 PM)
Taxi for Boris
No, Prime Ministerial Jaguar. Something Commie Corbyn will never ever sit in.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:39 PM
QUOTE(Liаm @ Oct 22 2019, 07:37 PM)
Taxi for Boris
Taxi for Boris!!
Stop brexshit now!! The people want to remain x
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:39 PM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 22 2019, 07:38 PM)
Can you explain the rationale behind this (without using propoganda buzz words regurgitated from the Conservatives/Brexit party) when Johnson has just won his first vote where MPs backed the deal at the first stage.
He's paused the bill to no doubt try to persuade the EU not to give an extension.
I don't agree with him pausing it at all when they could be discussing it tomorrow. Bad mistake Boris lad. He's acting like a petulant child as the timetable went against what he wanted.
Posted by: Envoirment 22nd October 2019, 06:40 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:37 PM)
MP's just voted for the deal though Michael but they wanted longer to scrutinise the detail We're leaving eventually. Get over it.
Whilst voting for the deal is a first, that's only the first part of the process. If MPs find that after scrutinizing and amending the bill there are aspects of it they do not like, then they can reject the deal even if they have just voted for it now.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:41 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 22 2019, 07:40 PM)
Whilst voting for the deal is a first, that's only the first part of the process. If MPs find that after scrutinizing and amending the bill, that there are aspects of it they do not like, then they can reject the deal even if they have just voted for it now.
Yes I know that but it's a good start nevertheless.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:44 PM
Time for brexshit to end. Time to revoke and remain.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:45 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 22 2019, 07:44 PM)
Time for brexshit to end. Time to revoke and remain.
There's no majority amongst MP's to revoke Michael. We must leave eventually.
Posted by: Envoirment 22nd October 2019, 06:46 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:41 PM)
Yes I know that but it's a good start nevertheless.
This is just the Withdrawal Agreement though. You do realise negotiations on trade, security, fishing, education, immigration etc etc will have to go through this process. Trade talks are many times more complicated than what the WA is. Particularly if the government want to negotiate a UK-EU specific deal (if the UK doesn't opt for Customs Union/Single Market access ala Norway). We're likely in for a decade or more of talks with the EU once the WA is agreed upon and enrshrined in law - barring the revoking of Article 50.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:48 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 22 2019, 07:46 PM)
This is just the Withdrawal Agreement though. You do realise negotiations on trade, security, fishing, education, immigration etc etc will have to go through this process. Trade talks are many times more complicated than what the WA is. Particularly if the government want to negotiate a UK-EU specific deal (if the UK doesn't opt for Customs Union/Single Market access ala Norway). We're likely in for a decade or more of talks with the EU once the WA is agreed upon and enrshrined in law - barring the revoking of Article 50.
I do know all that. I just want us out. Don't care if it takes 20 years. In the meantime we'll get some great deals with other countries too. We'll end up with more trade deals than we can even fulfil.
Posted by: Rooney 22nd October 2019, 06:50 PM
This Deal is never getting through the current Parliment as when it's properly scrutinised most MPs will just see it as a backdoor to No Deal, especially under this current cabinet.
Posted by: Envoirment 22nd October 2019, 06:50 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:48 PM)
I do know all that. I just want us out. Don't care if it takes 20 years. In the meantime we'll get some great deals with other countries too. We'll end up with more trade deals than we can even fulfil.
Care to name those countries?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:54 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Oct 22 2019, 07:50 PM)
This Deal is never getting through the current Parliment as when it's properly scrutinised most MPs will just see it as a backdoor to No Deal, especially under this current cabinet.
Well then it'll be a GE and majority for Boris who'll campaign on the platform of being thwarted at every attempt to get out of the EU.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:54 PM
DOUBLE POST AGAIN.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:55 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Oct 22 2019, 07:50 PM)
Care to name those countries?
US, Canada, Japan, China etc etc.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 06:57 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Oct 22 2019, 07:50 PM)
This Deal is never getting through the current Parliment as when it's properly scrutinised most MPs will just see it as a backdoor to No Deal, especially under this current cabinet.
Fantastic news! That's basically what this atrocious, worse than Mad May's, deal is. I can only see a Labour/ coalition government and a second referendum OR a Norway model route out if this mess. Bojo the clown and Cummings aren't capable of a piss up at a brewery, even with the entirw media on side.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 06:57 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 22 2019, 07:57 PM)
Fantastic news!
That's just one poster's opinion Michael.
Posted by: Esmerelda 22nd October 2019, 07:24 PM
Labour MP Kate Hoey really is an oddball- voted against the deal but for the government timetable.
Posted by: Michael Myers 22nd October 2019, 07:29 PM
19 Labour rebels. 19 to kick out the party.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 22nd October 2019, 07:34 PM
Lots of rumblings from EU that they’ll comply with the Benn Act regardless of what Boris says. Lot of anger in the EU tonight at Boris for pausing the bill. Across Europe there is sympathy with what parli did tonight because they fully understand needing a proper chance to scrutinise legislation and go through the democratic process.
EU quite irritated but not with parliament is crucial. They’ll back an extension to allow parliament to get to work as it has indicated it wishes to
Posted by: Rooney 22nd October 2019, 07:55 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 08:34 PM)
Lots of rumblings from EU that they’ll comply with the Benn Act regardless of what Boris says. Lot of anger in the EU tonight at Boris for pausing the bill. Across Europe there is sympathy with what parli did tonight because they fully understand needing a proper chance to scrutinise legislation and go through the democratic process.
EU quite irritated but not with parliament is crucial. They’ll back an extension to allow parliament to get to work as it has indicated it wishes to
Well it's true though isn't it.. the October 31st deadline is purely a strategic movement for a general election. This is an absolutely monumental descision and giving people a few days and no economic risk assessment is just f***ing ridiculous. These people don't care about anyone that is voting for them. Basically pushing something through which is going to make us all poorer. Honestly, the naivety in some people is ridiculous. Their lives will be no different on November 1st regardless of what happens, there's no going to be a magic money tree which grows.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 08:01 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 08:34 PM)
Lots of rumblings from EU that they’ll comply with the Benn Act regardless of what Boris says. Lot of anger in the EU tonight at Boris for pausing the bill. Across Europe there is sympathy with what parli did tonight because they fully understand needing a proper chance to scrutinise legislation and go through the democratic process.
EU quite irritated but not with parliament is crucial. They’ll back an extension to allow parliament to get to work as it has indicated it wishes to
Two months to Dec.31st should be enough though?
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 08:57 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:55 PM)
US, Canada, Japan, China etc etc.
So. all those countries that are at best equal in size to the EU (the USA), but mostly weaker than the EU. In other words, the EU can negotiate with them from a position of strength. The UK, OTOH, are a piddly little island nation. Of course, if Scotland and/or Northern Ireland leave, it will be even more piddly.
Posted by: Botchia 22nd October 2019, 09:10 PM
General election incoming in early December then...
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 22nd October 2019, 09:24 PM
Macron said to be unhappy with Tusks proposal. Key word there being unhappy, implies he will be grumpy but go with it. They just spunked any political capital they had on vetoing opening formal membership processes for Albania and North Macedonia so don’t have anything to spend on trying to veto an extension
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 22nd October 2019, 09:26 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Oct 22 2019, 08:55 PM)
Well it's true though isn't it.. the October 31st deadline is purely a strategic movement for a general election. This is an absolutely monumental descision and giving people a few days and no economic risk assessment is just f***ing ridiculous. These people don't care about anyone that is voting for them. Basically pushing something through which is going to make us all poorer. Honestly, the naivety in some people is ridiculous. Their lives will be no different on November 1st regardless of what happens, there's no going to be a magic money tree which grows.
Completely agree Roo. The timetable suggests they had malicious intentions they didn’t want found out by a close examination
Posted by: Envoirment 22nd October 2019, 09:36 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 10:24 PM)
Macron said to be unhappy with Tusks proposal. Key word there being unhappy, implies he will be grumpy but go with it. They just spunked any political capital they had on vetoing opening formal membership processes for Albania and North Macedonia so don’t have anything to spend on trying to veto an extension
He's been unhappy at every extension request, but should approve. He and the rest of the EU know a no deal would be a very bad thing, especially given the EU & UK's current economic situations.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 22nd October 2019, 09:48 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 22 2019, 10:26 PM)
Completely agree Roo. The timetable suggests they had malicious intentions they didn’t want found out by a close examination
No they didn't. Boris wanted to implement the will of the British people to leave the EU and he should be commended for that. MP's are just standing in his way. Well bring on an election and a majority for Boris and he can do what he likes then.
Posted by: Klaus 22nd October 2019, 09:59 PM
Oh dear, you’ve reset into Tory propoganda puppet mode
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 07:39 PM)
He's paused the bill to no doubt try to persuade the EU not to give an extension.
I don't agree with him pausing it at all when they could be discussing it tomorrow. Bad mistake Boris lad. He's acting like a petulant child as the timetable went against what he wanted.
Posted by: Rooney 22nd October 2019, 09:59 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 10:48 PM)
No they didn't. Boris wanted to implement the will of the British people to leave the EU and he should be commended for that. MP's are just standing in his way. Well bring on an election and a majority for Boris and he can do what he likes then.
It is an MPs job to protect their constituents and the country. Making such a monumentous descison without reading the full impact and legislation is ridiculous. You wouldn't buy a house without knowing all the risks and variables. Many MPs voted for the Deal because they are worried about losing their cushy salaried job in their constituency. I've said it before, I can live with a Brexit, but pushing one through just because of the "will of the people" is utter bullshit. You don't make a descison this with generational consequences without knowing the full impact.
f*** these Tories, I think they will rightly find it difficult to het the majority they hope for.
Posted by: Suedehead2 22nd October 2019, 10:03 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 10:48 PM)
No they didn't. Boris wanted to implement the will of the British people to leave the EU and he should be commended for that. MP's are just standing in his way. Well bring on an election and a majority for Boris and he can do what he likes then.
Johnson promised to include protection of workers' rights in the Bill. There is nothing in there on that subject.
The Bill as it stands makes it very easy for the government to take us out of the EU without a deal despite it being against the will of parliament.
They can both be seen very easily as malicious intentions they were trying to slip past MPs. If those two things can be spotted fairly quickly, what other horrors are also contained in the Bill?
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd October 2019, 10:05 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 10:48 PM)
No they didn't. Boris wanted to implement the will of the British people to leave the EU and he should be commended for that. MP's are just standing in his way. Well bring on an election and a majority for Boris and he can do what he likes then.
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 22 2019, 06:28 PM)
There is no 'will of the people' when the people are divided as ever. Leavers can't even agree on what they want. Nigel Farage, of all people, doesn't want this deal and would rather delay. The other half of the country is obviously not on board. It's not as simple as you like to pretend.
Focus groups show that people think this agreement is the end of Brexit — Brexit doesn't end on the 31 of October either way. 'Get Brexit Done' is purposefully misleading and there is a complete misunderstanding of the situation — it's simply the beginning of a transition period. This agreement isn't even as complex as future trade negotiations will be.
The entire premise of a confirmatory vote is that it would very decisively decide what the people actually want. There would be no room for interpretation. People are more informed. It's not democracy to force something through that such a large number of the country don't want — including leavers themselves. I would accept it if the people actually voted for this deal, but they haven't.
I know — it has been years (if the government had a more centrist approach from the beginning then this wouldn't be happening), but this bill has existed for just a few days. MPs only received it last night. There has been no economic assessment released. The most important decision for generations shouldn't be decided in less time than how to handle salmon in suspicious circumstances.
I wish you would respond to points directed at you rather than ignoring. Constantly.
Posted by: *Tim 23rd October 2019, 07:53 AM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 22 2019, 06:55 PM)
US, Canada, Japan, China etc etc.
In what world will you get a great tradedeal with countries that are way bigger and have more influence on the worldwide stage. The UK will be desperate for trade deals and everyone knows it
Posted by: vidcapper 23rd October 2019, 08:32 AM
ISTM there *is* a majority for getting Brexit finished, one way or another, though!
BTW, has any Remainer *MP* suggested that the referendum result should simply be ignored, rather than just ordinary voters?
Posted by: Calum 23rd October 2019, 09:01 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 23 2019, 09:32 AM)
BTW, has any Remainer *MP* suggested that the referendum result should simply be ignored, rather than just ordinary voters?
It doesn't really matter what they think. Their job is to a) act in the interests of the nation (avoiding this shit show of a deal that Johnson has put before us, ruining our economy, etc) and b) act in the interests of their constituents (aka... potentially now remain in the EU or hold a second confirmatory referendum on a deal that actually holds up to scrutiny).
Posted by: Tones and Iz 23rd October 2019, 09:11 AM
It will not be finished by leaving. If there is a majority for finishing it then it must be abandoned.
Alternatively make it the central issue of the rest of our lives, doesn’t that sound fun?
Posted by: Wicked Wombat of the West 23rd October 2019, 10:25 AM
I mean it's not like there are any other important issues that need addressing over the next decade that will get flung to the wayside while we're dealing with all this shit, like idk, the ongoing climate crisis? I mean nothing major has happened YET so we should be fine right? Much better to focus on a three year old narrow, advisory referendum result to which most didn't even know what they were voting for, brilliant use of our time.
Posted by: blacksquare 23rd October 2019, 07:39 PM
Has there been a reason given for why the Lib Dems abstained?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 23rd October 2019, 08:16 PM
That's a coalition law isn't it? Swinson will have voted in favour of it in the first place.
Posted by: Suedehead2 23rd October 2019, 08:31 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 23 2019, 09:16 PM)
That's a coalition law isn't it? Swinson will have voted in favour of it in the first place.
Probably the worst piece of legislation introduced by the coalition. The Lib Dems managed to get some changes agreed, but not enough.
Posted by: blacksquare 23rd October 2019, 08:37 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 23 2019, 09:16 PM)
That's a coalition law isn't it? Swinson will have voted in favour of it in the first place.
Of course! That completely passed me by.
I expect Labour will use this in the GE then.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 23rd October 2019, 08:51 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 23 2019, 09:31 PM)
Probably the worst piece of legislation introduced by the coalition. The Lib Dems managed to get some changes agreed, but not enough.
I'd maybe argue some of their budgets were worse but that's because healthcare is a devolved issue so I'm mostly unimpacted by this. Interesting that this didn't get carved out as an EVEL vote
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 23 2019, 09:37 PM)
Of course! That completely passed me by.
I expect Labour will use this in the GE then.
Depending on any remain alliance, if i was them I would.
Posted by: TheJü-Pumpkin 23rd October 2019, 09:51 PM
Who needs a reason? Bc they're puffed up yellow Tories who want to be the kingmakers and are going party over country, and the typical 'centrist' tactic of 'being in the middle' but just HAPPENING to criticize the left more than the right. That Swinson is a nasty piece of work, wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.
Posted by: Michael Myers 23rd October 2019, 11:45 PM
THIS!!!
Posted by: vidcapper 24th October 2019, 04:56 AM
QUOTE(Calum @ Oct 23 2019, 10:01 AM)
It doesn't really matter what they think. Their job is to a) act in the interests of the nation (avoiding this shit show of a deal that Johnson has put before us, ruining our economy, etc) and b) act in the interests of their constituents (aka... potentially now remain in the EU or hold a second confirmatory referendum on a deal that actually holds up to scrutiny).
So you are avoiding agreeing that no MP has said openly that the referendum result should be ignored.
For all their faults, they realize that a democratic exercise of that size cannot be dismissed. Once you start ignoring the result of any democratic vote by the electorate, you are on a slippery slope towards dictatorship!
Posted by: Klaus 24th October 2019, 08:50 AM
Ignoring democracy is not allowing MPs to scrutinise a piece of legislation
Posted by: blacksquare 24th October 2019, 09:52 AM
QUOTE(Tones and Iz @ Oct 22 2019, 02:08 PM)
Very good article. It's been worrying me for some time how eager the BBC and other news broadcasters, but especially the BBC, are so keen to parrot No 10 statements without question. Even if they don't agree, it's doing the government's PR for them.
I think the entire BBC political team could do with a shakeup.
Interesting how there has been a slight change since that article...
Posted by: vidcapper 24th October 2019, 10:42 AM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 24 2019, 09:50 AM)
Ignoring democracy is not allowing MPs to scrutinise a piece of legislation
WTF have they been doing for the last 3 years, then?!
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 24th October 2019, 02:57 PM
How can they spend 3 years scrutinising a withdrawal bill that wasn’t published until 3 days ago?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 02:58 PM
From BBC News.
EU leaders are set to decide on Friday whether to grant the UK a three-month Brexit extension, the BBC's Europe editor Katya Adler says.
Most EU nations back it but France "is digging its heels in", she adds.
So there could be an emergency summit in Brussels on Monday to allow leaders to reach agreement face-to-face.
Boris Johnson insists the UK will leave the EU next week with or without a deal and he will seek a snap election if the EU grants an extension to January.
The prime minister was forced to send a letter to the EU requesting an extension, under legislation passed by MPs last month.
But he said he had told EU leaders his policy was still to leave on 31 October.
Commons Leader Jacob Rees-Mogg told MPs the government "does not want an extension" and was "making every preparation to leave on 31 October".
Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson's chief adviser, is reported to be urging ministers to abandon attempts to get the prime minister's Brexit deal through Parliament and go for a December election instead.
But some ministers - such as Northern Ireland Secretary Julian Smith - are understood to be urging the prime minister to make another attempt to get his deal through Parliament first.
Cabinet ministers are expected to meet at 15:00 BST to discuss the way forward.
French President Emmanuel Macron is concerned that a long extension could lead to more UK indecisiveness or an inconclusive general election, the BBC understands.
But if the EU approves the UK's request for a three-month extension, Mr Johnson would have to accept it, under the terms of the so-called Benn Act.
He would also have to accept any alternative duration suggested by EU leaders, unless MPs decide not to agree with it within two days.
Posted by: Michael Myers 24th October 2019, 03:09 PM
Rumours are that Bojo will abandon his shit deal and try to get a snap election instead voted through tonight!! All he wants is the hsrdest ecit or no deal.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:12 PM
Bring an election on. 5 more years for Boris and Corbyn back to his allotment.
Posted by: vidcapper 24th October 2019, 03:15 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 04:12 PM)
Bring an election on. 5 more years for Boris and Corbyn back to his allotment.
If Remainers think they can pin all the blame on the Tories if Brexit is blocked, they will be sorely mistaken!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:17 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 24 2019, 04:15 PM)
If Remainers think they can pin all the blame on the Tories if Brexit is blocked, they will be sorely mistaken!
My worry is the Brexit party taking vote from the Tories. Rumours that Farage will stand in Boris's constituency.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:18 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 24 2019, 04:09 PM)
Rumours are that Bojo will abandon his shit deal and try to get a snap election instead voted through tonight!! All he wants is the hsrdest ecit or no deal.
Boris meeting with his top-team now and what they've decided could be announce later.
Sources are saying that 10 Downing Street are asking the French to veto the extension and the French Ambassador has been seen going into No.10. This is a risky move by Cummings and Johnson as faced with the prospect of No Deal, Parliament could and should Revoke.
Posted by: Michael Myers 24th October 2019, 03:26 PM
STOP TROLLING. BOJO HATES YOU. HE BRINGS NO BENEFIT TO ANYONE BUT THE ULTRA RICH!!
YOU ARE SUPPORTING A ONE PARTY STATE MEDIA BY BELIEVING THEIR LIES!!
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:28 PM
QUOTE(Michael Myers @ Oct 24 2019, 04:26 PM)
STOP TROLLING. BOJO HATED YOU.
Am putting you on ignore. You're like a broken record.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:38 PM
Question Time BBC1 tonight.
On the panel: Norman Lamont, Richard Leonard MSP, Caroline Voaden MEP, Kate Andrews and Ken Loach.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 03:51 PM
LATEST. GE motion to be tabled by Government on Monday says Sky's Beth Rigby. Announcement later. Boris expects EU to grant extension.
Thursday 5th December rumoured as the date if Government wins.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 24th October 2019, 04:04 PM
QUOTE
PM putting down motion for a general election to be voted on on Monday, to take place on 12th December - No 10's gambit is that if Labour agrees, then they will timetable Brexit bill again with time for scrutiny until 6th November when they want to dissolve Parliament.
12th December Chris.
5th is too close to the NATO summit.
Posted by: Klaus 24th October 2019, 04:07 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 24 2019, 11:42 AM)
WTF have they been doing for the last 3 years, then?!
Waiting for legislation to be put in front of them to scrutinise
Posted by: Michael Myers 24th October 2019, 04:07 PM
Time to get the evil landed genety aristocratic party of corrupt conceited crooks who hate us out of office forever!! Bojo is a joke and the most shameful, weakest, sneakiest weaseliest pm in HISTORY!! He brings national shame. An unfit embarrassment.
OUT OUT OUT!!!
Posted by: Brett-Butler 24th October 2019, 04:09 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 04:38 PM)
Question Time BBC1 tonight.
On the panel: Norman Lamont, Richard Leonard MSP, Caroline Voaden MEP, Kate Andrews and Ken Loach.
Of "fisting" fame.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 04:09 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 24 2019, 05:04 PM)
12th December Chris.
5th is too close to the NATO summit.
I bow to your superior knowledge but Sky saying they've heard 5th. All nighter for me with lots of snacks and drinks.
By the way if Farage stands and fails to win his seat it'll be the 8th time. Wonder when he'll actually get the message.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 04:10 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 24 2019, 05:09 PM)
Of "fisting" fame.
He must be getting on a bit now.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 24th October 2019, 04:13 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 05:09 PM)
I bow to your superior knowledge but Sky saying they've heard 5th. All nighter for me with lots of snacks and drinks.
It was a tweet from Laura Kuenssberg.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 04:14 PM
Laura must know as she's been in No.10 this afternoon. It's thought she's recorded an interview with Boris.
Posted by: Michael Myers 24th October 2019, 04:14 PM
Urgh can you stop quoting him please? I have tp see his troll posts.
Shouldn't even bother, but: this isn't football. This isn't something for drerrnks and snerrrks. It is serious.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 24th October 2019, 04:18 PM
I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn will relish a General Election, as it will give him the opportunity on the campaign trail to take his favourite train all the way to Orkney.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 04:20 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 24 2019, 05:18 PM)
I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn will relish a General Election, as it will give him the opportunity on the campaign trail to take his favourite train all the way to Orkney.
Labour have to vote for it especially if the EU has given it's extension tomorrow. They'd look fools not to support it now.
Posted by: Suedehead2 24th October 2019, 04:31 PM
So Johnson continues to treat the Queen with contempt. Still, he treats the rest of us with contempt, so why should she be any different? Having got her to deliver a speech only last week, he now wants to bin that and drag her back again in the new year.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 04:36 PM
While I said above that the coalition legislation was awful, I'm not convinced that yet another reorganisation is the best solution. The sad fact is that none of the endless reorganisations (most of them under the so-called Conservative party) have been left in place long enough to determine whether they worked or not.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 05:33 PM
Many Labour MP's and the SNP saying they won't back an election as they suspect some kind of clever trap by Boris to then somehow refuse the extension and crash us out with no deal still on 31st.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 24th October 2019, 06:08 PM
SNP will back an election once the extension is secured. They have been unwaveringly clear in this regard
Posted by: Botchia 24th October 2019, 08:39 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 06:33 PM)
Many Labour MP's and the SNP saying they won't back an election as they suspect some kind of clever trap by Boris to then somehow refuse the extension and crash us out with no deal still on 31st.
Is it not going to be finalised by the time the motion is voted on?
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 24th October 2019, 08:46 PM
Latest: Boris Johnson's Govt has threatened to go on strike if Labour refuses a Dec 12 election on Monday. PM’s spokesman said: “Nothing will come before Parliament but the bare minimum. We will pursue a general election every day from then onwards, and do everything we can to get it”.
Posted by: Suedehead2 24th October 2019, 08:54 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 09:46 PM)
Latest: Boris Johnson's Govt has threatened to go on strike if Labour refuses a Dec 12 election on Monday. PM’s spokesman said: “Nothing will come before Parliament but the bare minimum. We will pursue a general election every day from then onwards, and do everything we can to get it”.
So they still haven't worked out that a sting of threats which come to naught won't be taken seriously? What happened to Johnson's threat to pull the withdrawal Bill if the timetable motion was defeated?
There is one simple fact that people should have worked out by now - JOHNSON IS A LIAR.
Posted by: Suedehead2 24th October 2019, 08:55 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 24 2019, 09:46 PM)
Latest: Boris Johnson's Govt has threatened to go on strike if Labour refuses a Dec 12 election on Monday. PM’s spokesman said: “Nothing will come before Parliament but the bare minimum. We will pursue a general election every day from then onwards, and do everything we can to get it”.
Oh, and I hope they won't go on strike until they have had a proper strike ballot conforming to the rules laid down by the Tory government.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 24th October 2019, 10:53 PM
I’m trying to work out how you’d tell the difference between a Boris government not on strike and a Boris government on strike. Is it the number of court cases they lose?
Posted by: Calum 25th October 2019, 02:19 AM
QUOTE
Violence against MPs is "worth it" if people get their way on Brexit, according to a majority of voters.
An academic survey by Cardiff University and the University of Edinburgh found a majority thought violence against members of Parliament could be a "price worth paying" if it meant their views prevailed.
The survey was based on polling by YouGov which found 71% of Leave voters in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales thought violence against MPs was a "price worth paying" for Brexit.
Those responding to the poll were also fine with seeing members of the public hurt. On both sides, people said protests in which some were "badly injured" would be a "price worth paying".
Among Leavers, it was 69% in England, 62% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.
f***ing hell
Posted by: vidcapper 25th October 2019, 04:55 AM
QUOTE Violence against MPs is "worth it" if people get their way on Brexit, according to a majority of voters.
An academic survey by Cardiff University and the University of Edinburgh found a majority thought violence against members of Parliament could be a "price worth paying" if it meant their views prevailed.
The survey was based on polling by YouGov which found 71% of Leave voters in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales thought violence against MPs was a "price worth paying" for Brexit.
Those responding to the poll were also fine with seeing members of the public hurt. On both sides, people said protests in which some were "badly injured" would be a "price worth paying".
Among Leavers, it was 69% in England, 62% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.
ISTM this is a clear sign of how voters are getting totally p1ssed-off at MP's shenanagins!
Posted by: Brett-Butler 25th October 2019, 09:33 AM
QUOTE(Calum @ Oct 25 2019, 03:19 AM)
Violence against MPs is "worth it" if people get their way on Brexit, according to a majority of voters.
An academic survey by Cardiff University and the University of Edinburgh found a majority thought violence against members of Parliament could be a "price worth paying" if it meant their views prevailed.
The survey was based on polling by YouGov which found 71% of Leave voters in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales thought violence against MPs was a "price worth paying" for Brexit.
Those responding to the poll were also fine with seeing members of the public hurt. On both sides, people said protests in which some were "badly injured" would be a "price worth paying".
Among Leavers, it was 69% in England, 62% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.
f***ing hell
I'll direct everyone to this https://twitter.com/Fellwolf/status/1187616084360384512, which suggests that the questions in the survey were so poorly designed as if they wanted this these results to come from the survey for the purpose of shocking headlines. And as always, the link to https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union and a reminder of Brett-Butler's Groovy Rule - If a source goes against your biases, question it. If it confirms your biases, question it MORE.
The good news is that now I can, once more, post "the video":
Posted by: vidcapper 25th October 2019, 09:56 AM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 25 2019, 10:33 AM)
I'll direct everyone to this https://twitter.com/Fellwolf/status/1187616084360384512, which suggests that the questions in the survey were so poorly designed as if they wanted this these results to come from the survey for the purpose of shocking headlines. And as always, the link to https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union and a reminder of Brett-Butler's Groovy Rule - If a source goes against your biases, question it. If it confirms your biases, question it MORE.
The surprising thing is that *both* the Guardian & Daily Mail covered it - normally that only happens to something like 'WW3 has started'.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 03:03 PM
The EU has said they will grant an extension but no decision will be made on length of it until next week. They're waiting to see if MP's vote for an election yet Corbyn wants to know the length of the extension before he decides how Labour will vote. So a stalemate really.
Posted by: Harve 25th October 2019, 04:16 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 25 2019, 09:33 AM)
I'll direct everyone to this https://twitter.com/Fellwolf/status/1187616084360384512, which suggests that the questions in the survey were so poorly designed as if they wanted this these results to come from the survey for the purpose of shocking headlines. And as always, the link to https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union and a reminder of Brett-Butler's Groovy Rule - If a source goes against your biases, question it. If it confirms your biases, question it MORE.
I think it was reported terribly by the Guardian with the removal of the word 'risk' etc., but I don't think the survey itself is too bad. It's true that more data could be useful to see what proportion of the ~50% of voters who believe violence is likely in case of X also believe that the risk of violence is worth it for X.
78% of Leave voters surveyed either actively want violence to happen or are fine with the risk. Even if every single person who believes there isn't actually a risk says that the 'risk' is worth it (contradictory answers, admittedly), that still leaves the majority of Leave voters who think violence could well happen believing that it's worth it.
Posted by: Doctor Sleep 25th October 2019, 04:29 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 04:03 PM)
The EU has said they will grant an extension but no decision will be made on length of it until next week. They're waiting to see if MP's vote for an election yet Corbyn wants to know the length of the extension before he decides how Labour will vote. So a stalemate really.
The PLP really don't want an election - they think if they can hold out until the EHRC report into anti-semitism in the Labour Party is due in January 2020 they might be able to get rid of Corbyn.
However, if you want to stop Brexit, the only real route to it is to hold a General Election.
That may sound a strange thing to say, given that Johnson himself is pushing for an election, now, weirdly, tying this giving more time to debate the WAB (not that much more, in fact). But - barring some very dramatic event - the only realistic route to remain now lies in a Labour administration – whether majority or minority – organizing another referendum (this would in turn entail yet another request to the EU for an extension).
The present parliament almost certainly isn’t going to vote, and legislate, for another referendum. On the other hand, if the WAB ever is debated by the present parliament then it is quite likely to end up passing. The Second Reading, after all, passed by 30 votes – allowing Johnson to make the wholly dishonest claim that his deal had been “passed” – and although many of those votes (it would only take 15) could peel away at Third Reading it looks plausible that it could squeak though. Even if it were heavily amended, most amendments (e.g. to seek a customs union) could easily be undone by a future government whereas, so long as it passed, then Brexit would have happened and there would be no way back. Also relevant here is that after 31 October there will be a new Speaker, who may well be less robust in defending the rights of parliament than John Bercow.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 04:36 PM
SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford being condemned on Twitter for this Tweet.
"People are not going to thank you for asking them to come out and vote in a general election when we're in the middle of winter."
The SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford says Boris Johnson's proposals for a December election are "barking mad."
People pointing out that most go to work, school and college in winter so why is this different?
Some saying "Brexiteers will walk the earth in blizzards to get Brexit done" LOL.
Posted by: Suedehead2 25th October 2019, 04:48 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 05:36 PM)
SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford being condemned on Twitter for this Tweet. "People are not going to thank you for asking them to come out and vote in a general election when we're in the middle of winter."
The SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford says Boris Johnson's proposals for a December election are "barking mad." People pointing out that most go to work, school and college in winter so why is this different?
Some saying "Brexiteers will walk the earth in blizzards to get Brexit done" LOL.
OK, here's a deal. A group of Leave supports (at least 1,000) can go to Siberia and go for a walk (at least ten miles) every time there is a blizzard for the next thirty years. In return, I'll accept us leaving the EU.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 05:20 PM
Just read this on Twitter. Made me laugh.
On a train pulling into Doncaster. A 4-yr-old just got up and said: "This is Yorkshire and if any of you are southern snobs who believe in cancelling our Brexit votes then don't bother getting off here." The whole carriage stood up and applauded!
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 05:25 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 05:20 PM)
Just read this on Twitter. Made me laugh. On a train pulling into Doncaster. A 4-yr-old just got up and said: "This is Yorkshire and if any of you are southern snobs who believe in cancelling our Brexit votes then don't bother getting off here." The whole carriage stood up and applauded!
How sweet, a whole carriage of people who don't know what the f*** it is they've voted for.
I'm so embarrassed to be British right now.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 05:28 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 25 2019, 06:25 PM)
How sweet, a whole carriage of people who don't know what the f*** it is they've voted for.
I'm so embarrassed to be British right now.
Oh I think they've a good idea. We're not all thick you know. We did consider the arguments.
Posted by: Suedehead2 25th October 2019, 05:36 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 06:28 PM)
Oh I think they've a good idea. We're not all thick you know. We did consider the arguments.
If Leave voters knew what they were voting for, why has the government still not worked it out? Which particular bit of the withdrawal agreement did you vote for?
Posted by: Klaus 25th October 2019, 05:40 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 06:20 PM)
Just read this on Twitter. Made me laugh. On a train pulling into Doncaster. A 4-yr-old just got up and said: "This is Yorkshire and if any of you are southern snobs who believe in cancelling our Brexit votes then don't bother getting off here." The whole carriage stood up and applauded!
A contender for Didn’t Happen of the Year Award
https://twitter.com/_dhotya?lang=en
Posted by: Doctor Sleep 25th October 2019, 05:41 PM
It should have read 'a personal with the equivalent mental age of 4 years old'.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 05:42 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 25 2019, 06:36 PM)
If Leave voters knew what they were voting for, why has the government still not worked it out? Which particular bit of the withdrawal agreement did you vote for?
The bit that says we're LEAVING THE EU.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 25th October 2019, 05:58 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 05:36 PM)
SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford being condemned on Twitter for this Tweet. "People are not going to thank you for asking them to come out and vote in a general election when we're in the middle of winter."
The SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford says Boris Johnson's proposals for a December election are "barking mad." People pointing out that most go to work, school and college in winter so why is this different?
Some saying "Brexiteers will walk the earth in blizzards to get Brexit done" LOL.
What’s the furthest north in the UK you’ve been?
I doubt it’s to his constituency way way way up north in the highlands where a lot of places don’t have street lights never mind phone coverage - here you’ve got 6.5hrs of daylight in the winter, that’s a lot of time at the polls in the pitch black. It also gets a hella lot of snow. So no, no one will thank the Tories for dragging us to an election in the middle of winter
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 06:08 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 25 2019, 06:58 PM)
What’s the furthest north in the UK you’ve been?
BARNSLEY.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 06:10 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 25 2019, 06:58 PM)
What’s the furthest north in the UK you’ve been?
I doubt it’s to his constituency way way way up north in the highlands where a lot of places don’t have street lights never mind phone coverage - here you’ve got 6.5hrs of daylight in the winter, that’s a lot of time at the polls in the pitch black. It also gets a hella lot of snow. So no, no one will thank the Tories for dragging us to an election in the middle of winter
Do you expect our busy hard-working PM to think of one constituency way up there when deciding when it's best to hold an election?
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 25th October 2019, 06:29 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 06:20 PM)
Just read this on Twitter. Made me laugh. On a train pulling into Doncaster. A 4-yr-old just got up and said: "This is Yorkshire and if any of you are southern snobs who believe in cancelling our Brexit votes then don't bother getting off here." The whole carriage stood up and applauded!
I'm applauding this person's vivid imagination!
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 06:43 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 05:28 PM)
Oh I think they've a good idea. We're not all thick you know. We did consider the arguments.
Tell me. How do you think your life will personally improve after Brexit?
Please avoid abstract meaningless slogans like "take back control" or "less immigrants from the EU".
I would like to hear how your life will ACTUALLY improve.
.....
I´m waiting.
Posted by: Suedehead2 25th October 2019, 07:02 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 06:42 PM)
The bit that says we're LEAVING THE EU.
And the most [predictable response of the year award goes to...
Please explain how any of it will make the UK a better p[lace to live. Not just Sun-headline slogans, some actual detail of how the agreement's provisions will improve our lives.
Posted by: Suedehead2 25th October 2019, 07:05 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 07:10 PM)
Do you expect our busy hard-working PM to think of one constituency way up there when deciding when it's best to hold an election?
Has Johnson resigned? I must have missed the bit where he was replaced with someone hard-working.
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 08:13 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 25 2019, 06:43 PM)
Tell me. How do you think your life will personally improve after Brexit?
Please avoid abstract meaningless slogans like "take back control" or "less immigrants from the EU".
I would like to hear how your life will ACTUALLY improve. .....
I´m waiting.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 08:33 PM
FRANCE READY TO BLOCK EXTENSION unless MP's pass deal or agree to an election.
From The Observer.
France is ready to send Britain crashing out of the European Union unless Labour and the Commons agree to a general election or ratify Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal. Macron may exercise France's veto.
Britain and the EU are nearing the brink of no-deal after President Macron today blocked an extension to Brexit and preparations began for an emergency summit on October 30.
A source close to the French president warned that a delay to Brexit beyond Thursday was “not a given” unless there was new political movement in Westminster to justify it.
“France wants a justified and proportionate extension. However, we have nothing of the sort so far,” an Élysée official said. “We must show the British that it is up to them to clarify the situation"
Go France. Send us out next Thursday and bye-bye.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 08:36 PM
I don't blame Macron at all. He's fed up as is everyone else. The will of the electorate must be done and we must leave. So MP's, which is it to be then, election or Boris's great deal? If neither the impasses goes on and that's what France doesn't want. We get to the end of the next extension then what?
Spoke to three guys today that I didn't even know were Brexiteers. Turns out they are and all are fed up to the back teeth with MP's, think Boris is a hero for trying to get us out and think we should just leave.
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 08:40 PM
Still waiting.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 08:41 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 25 2019, 09:40 PM)
Still waiting.
You're like Diana Ross was then.
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 08:48 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 08:41 PM)
You're like Diana Ross was then.
Yep, that´s it. Slither away as usual when asked a simple question
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 08:56 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 25 2019, 09:48 PM)
Yep, that´s it. Slither away as usual when asked a simple question
Why don't you or Suedehead or Michael or indeed any remainer here tell me what exactly we gain from the EU? As someone said on Twitter earlier, but can't get it to copy and paste, we pay billions a year for the privilege of them telling us what shape bananas we can sell and having open door immigration. Oh and we're so valuable to them that they're doing all they can to stop us leaving.
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 09:02 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 08:56 PM)
Why don't you or Suedehead or Michael or indeed any remainer here tell me what we gain from the EU? As someone said on Twitter earlier, but can't get it to copy and paste, we pay billions a year for the privilege of them telling us what shape bananas we can sell and having open door immigration.
I could say "nice try, answer my question first", but seeing as listing the benefits is such an easy task I´ll list a few off the top of my head(AGAIN):
A passport that allows us to live and work in 27 other countries without the need for visas or passports as well as holiday in those countries without having to cue for hours.
Immigrants who fill vital jobs that many British people don´t want to do(cleaners, nurses)
Much lower import tariffs on products such as food and vital medicines that would cost substantially more otherwise.
Funding that goes to some of the poorer less well off parts of the country(of course you never hear about that.)
I could go on, but that´s not the point. The point is you´re deflecting because you can´t answer my question.
Back to you Chris, how is your life going to be better after Brexit?
Posted by: Peentergeist 25th October 2019, 09:11 PM
Oh LORD
1. Bendy bananas is an EGREGIOUS f***IN LIE about the EU. NOT TRUE!!
2. WE GET MASSIVE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL BENEFITS FROM BEING IN!!! MASSIVE ECONOMIC BENEFITS.
3. Immigration is decided by the f***ing government, not the eu. They chose to not enforce borders. Tories.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 09:30 PM
QUOTE(Peentergeist @ Oct 25 2019, 10:11 PM)
2. WE GET MASSIVE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL BENEFITS FROM BEING IN!!! MASSIVE ECONOMIC BENEFITS.
Hi Michael. Well we should do as we pay so much in. All that money can be used for our pensioners, sick and disabled or NHS.
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 09:51 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 09:30 PM)
Hi Michael. Well we should do as we pay so much in. All that money can be used for our pensioners, sick and disabled or NHS.
Hi Chris. Can you give us some examples of how you think your life will be better when leave the EU?
Thanks.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 09:53 PM
QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 25 2019, 10:51 PM)
Hi Chris. Can you give us some examples of how you think your life will be better when leave the EU?
Thanks.
Hi. My life may not be better but at least we'll be paying less in and there won't be as much strain on our public services with less people coming in to the UK. We can control them more.
Posted by: Botchia 25th October 2019, 09:57 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 09:33 PM)
FRANCE READY TO BLOCK EXTENSION unless MP's pass deal or agree to an election. From The Observer.
France is ready to send Britain crashing out of the European Union unless Labour and the Commons agree to a general election or ratify Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal. Macron may exercise France's veto.
Britain and the EU are nearing the brink of no-deal after President Macron today blocked an extension to Brexit and preparations began for an emergency summit on October 30.
A source close to the French president warned that a delay to Brexit beyond Thursday was “not a given” unless there was new political movement in Westminster to justify it.
“France wants a justified and proportionate extension. However, we have nothing of the sort so far,” an Élysée official said. “We must show the British that it is up to them to clarify the situation" Go France. Send us out next Thursday and bye-bye.
This will never happen, sorry x
Posted by: mald487 25th October 2019, 09:58 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 09:53 PM)
Hi. My life may not be better but at least we'll be paying less in and there won't be as much strain on our public services with less people coming in to the UK. We can control them more.
There will not be less people coming to the UK. You´ve already had this explained to you.
Public services would be ran much better if they weren´t victim to unnecessary austerity.
Please tell me how life will be better for the average working class person?
Again, please try and avoid slogans and things that you have picked up from Sky News.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 10:01 PM
QUOTE(Botchia @ Oct 25 2019, 10:57 PM)
This will never happen, sorry x
Well with France's attitude now do you think they'll go on for years just giving us extensions because I don't.
Brexit has to be done sometime. The people voted for it. 17.4 million of us.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 10:16 PM
By the way, has the EU ever thought to themselves I wonder, why the UK public voted to leave. There must be reasons after all.
Posted by: Harve 25th October 2019, 10:23 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 10:16 PM)
By the way, has the EU ever thought to themselves I wonder, why the UK public voted to leave. There must be reasons after all.
No, I'm sure nobody in the EU has ever reflected on why half of one of its largest member states doesn't want to be part of it, or https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/General/index/general/doChangeLocale/locale/en/curEvent/General.index/.
Are you actually serious.
Posted by: Freddie Kruger 25th October 2019, 10:26 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Oct 25 2019, 11:23 PM)
No, I'm sure nobody in the EU has ever reflected on why half of one of its largest member states doesn't want to be part of it, or https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/General/index/general/doChangeLocale/locale/en/curEvent/General.index/.
Are you actually serious.
I mean if they tried to understand then they may realise what's inherently wrong with the EU and why other countries may want to leave in the future. It's like a marriage breaking down. Yes by all means grant the divorce but surely mediation is better to understand what's gone wrong?
Posted by: Suedehead2 25th October 2019, 10:29 PM
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 25 2019, 10:53 PM)
Hi. My life may not be better but at least we'll be paying less in and there won't be as much strain on our public services with less people coming in to the UK. We can control them more.
If the economy shrinks (as seems likely), there will be less money available for public services.
Tariff-free trade with the EU is hugely beneficial for the economy. We are on the brink of potentially throwing that away.
It is impossible to put a precise value on the benefit of free movement of goods within the EU, but it is massive. We might get a better idea of just how massive if we lose it.
Most people have got so used to the benefits of free movement of goods and people that they don't give it a thought. They think of it as normal. It isn't. There is no other major bloc of nations where goods can move freely across borders. However, such are the benefits of it that similar blocs are steadily being formed. Those blocs are less powerful economically than the EU, but are potentially more powerful than our piddly little island.
Note that these blocs also negotiate trade deals collectively. We won't be trying to do trade deals with individual countries; a lot of the time we will have to negotiate with a bloc of countries. We could probably get a decent deal with, say, Vietnam, if we negotiated with them alone. However, we won't because they are part of ASEAN and we will have to attempt to get a collective deal with all of its members.
It sounded almost identical if I wasn't paying attention. Scotland's the best part of the country, excepr for Oxford and Cambridge, so remainers get to keep the best bit.
We don't need a People's Vote. WE'VE HAD ONE. Why can't you remainers accept the result? More people voted leave than remain. Sometimes I think I'm debating with 4 year-lds here.Why not just accept it. If remain had one I wouldn't have been happy but would have accepted a democratic result. Boris doesn't want a second referendum and it's not thought there's a majority in Parliament for one either.
