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| How can we tackle the power of playlists? |
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 8th January 2020, 02:56 PM
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#1
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364 
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ISTM they are slowing down the charts, and favouring some genres over others.
 Perhaps there could be a down-weighting of songs within playlists, as opposed to individual listens? |
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8th January 2020, 03:08 PM
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#2
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 20 January 2011 Posts: 5,907 User: 12,837
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 8 2020, 02:56 PM)  ISTM they are slowing down the charts, and favouring some genres over others. Perhaps there could be a down-weighting of songs within playlists, as opposed to individual listens? I would just be happy if we had a separate pop chart or mainstream chart where hip hop songs and old songs aren't included, similar to what the US does with the Mainstream Top 40. Especially since we already have an urban and dance chart. |
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8th January 2020, 03:22 PM
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#3
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 25 March 2007
Posts: 21,308 User: 3,155
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We never will - it’s a huge source of income to streaming providers that they will be keen to hang on to, as streaming grows so will the costs associated with being high up on a playlist and with companies like Spotify struggling to make a profit these are a welcome addition to their bottom line. I’m sure Amazon got more than just an ‘exclusive’ with the Ellie release for example...
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8th January 2020, 03:51 PM
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#4
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 20 January 2011 Posts: 5,907 User: 12,837
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I've personally been making my own combined chart where hip hop songs and old songs are weighed down (each song loses a tiny bit of sales for each week it spends on the chart outside of its first three weeks and songs that have spent 53+ weeks on the chart don't get any pts at all) and both the official and sales chart both have equal weight to their scores and honestly it's way more interesting to me and I love compiling it (did so for every week of last year actually). Here's what the last chart of 2019 looked like for example.
TW | OC Pos. | Sales Pos. | Wks | Song & Artist [Peak] 01 (02) (01) 07 Lewis Capaldi Before You Go [01] 02 (03) (05) 09 Dua Lipa Don't Start Now [01] 03 (05) (02) 22 Tones & I Dance Monkey [01] 04 (01) (03) 06 Stormzy Own It ft Ed Sheeran & Burna Boy [04] 05 (08) (06) 13 Endor Pump It Up [05] 06 (07) (13) 04 Harry Styles Adore You [03] 07 (06) (12) 08 Billie Eilish Everything I Wanted [03] 08 (21) (04) 15 Maroon 5 Memories [03] 09 (09) (10) 15 Jax Jones This Is Real ft Ella Henderson [06] 10 (11) (19) 05 The Weeknd Blinding Lights [05] 11 (04) (08) 08 Arizona Zervas Roxanne [11] 12 (10) (35) 11 Selena Gomez Lose You To Love Me [02] 13 (13) (33) 04 Camila Cabello My Oh My ft DaBaby [13] 14 (30) (11) 10 Tom Walker Better Half Of Me [10] 15 (19) (21) 07 Cast of "Frozen II" Into the Unknown [15] 16 (23) (09) 21 Regard Ride It [01] 17 (14) (49) 06 Trevor Daniel Falling [17] 18 (31) (15) 12 Meduza Lose Control ft Becky Hill & Goodboys [10] 19 (17) (38) 07 Harry Styles Watermelon Sugar [16] 20 (44) (22) 09 Sigala We Got Love ft Ella Henderson [20] 21 (18) (69) 12 Harry Styles Lights Up [03] 22 (35) (17) 11 Blackbear Hot Girl Bummer [22] 23 (24) (16) 38 Lewis Capaldi Bruises [08] 24 (32) (30) 17 Ed Sheeran South Of The Border ft Camila Cabello & Cardi B [04] 25 (36) (25) 18 Post Malone Circles [03] 26 (25) (99) 06 The Weeknd Heartless [12] 27 (41) (20) 24 Lizzo Good As Hell [04] 28 (46) (26) 25 Ed Sheeran Take Me Back To London ft Stormzy [01] 29 (54) (23) 27 Kygo & Whitney Houston Higher Love [01] 30 (62) (51) 06 Cast of "Frozen II" Show Yourself [25] 31 (28) (--) 06 Ellie Goulding River [03] 32 (47) (28) 28 Shawn Mendes & Camila Cabello Senorita [01] 33 (58) (42) 16 Riton & Oliver Heldens Turn Me On ft Vula [04] 34 (26) (14) 40 Billie Eilish Bad Guy [02] 35 (20) (54) 08 Young T & Bugsey Malone Don't Rush ft Headie One [35] 36 (56) (66) 09 Coldplay Orphans [10] 37 (12) (32) 24 Stormzy Vossi Bop [04] 38 (--) (34) 01 Why Don't We Chills [38] 39 (77) (47) 13 Niall Horan Nice To Meet Ya [08] 40 (--) (35) 03 Taylor Swift Beautiful Ghosts [40] Bold = New Peak Top 40 Official Songs Missing Out: (15) 132. Lewis Capaldi Someone You Loved (16) 056. Stormzy Audacity ft Headie One (22) 073. Darkoo & One Acen Gangsta (27) 066. Juice WRLD Lucid Dreams (29) 081. D-Block Europe No Cellular Site (33) 092. J HUS No Denying (34) 095. Fredo Netflix & Chill (37) 101. J HUS Must Be (38) 047. Lil Nas X Old Town Road (Remix) ft Billy Ray Cyrus (39) 100. Don Toliver No Idea (40) 099. Roddy Rich The Box This post has been edited by cantthinkofaname: 8th January 2020, 03:53 PM |
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8th January 2020, 04:25 PM
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#5
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,255 User: 22,665
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but we cannot punish a particular genre cos we don't like it
that's a very nazi-solution imagine if during britpop when the 5th single from Mansun's or Suede's album was going top 10, pop fans would have wanted songs with guitars to be removed from the charts |
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8th January 2020, 04:25 PM
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#6
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 🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
Posts: 74,572 User: 11,746
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why should hip hop songs be down weighted then, other than that you're clearly not a fan of them?
if anything hip hop songs are less reliant on playlist payola and more people are seeking those out rather than certain songs being propped up by Hot Hits UK (Lose Control and This Is Real, much as I love them, are clearly not as popular as Hot Hits would like you to believe (3rd and 7th on the playlist)) |
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8th January 2020, 04:29 PM
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#7
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🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
Posts: 74,572 User: 11,746
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personally I think the solution is if a user is just putting a curated playlist/Alexa on and listening passively (ie in order or shuffle with little/no skips) then those sales should be down-weighted somewhat.
if they're picking out a few songs from a playlist or playing their own playlist then it counts as normal. |
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8th January 2020, 04:37 PM
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#8
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,255 User: 22,665
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I'm also up for passively listening to playlists having a different ratio
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8th January 2020, 04:46 PM
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#9
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 20 January 2011 Posts: 5,907 User: 12,837
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lmao chill guys I never said I thought that hip hop songs should be downweighted, that would be a ridiculous thing to expect the OCC to implement. Just because I do it for my personal passion project doesn't mean I expect or want the OCC to follow suit lol (and for the record I only weigh them down on the streaming side and not on the sales only side). As I said in my first post I'd just be happy with a separate Mainstream/Pop Chart.
 But on that note male-fronted hip hop (and just male fronted songs in general) IS overrepresented but that's to do with society as a whole because still today male fronted songs have the advantage of being socially acceptable to be listened to by all genders while female fronted songs are generally (with a few exceptions) "not ok" for straight guys to listen to. This post has been edited by cantthinkofaname: 8th January 2020, 04:48 PM |
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8th January 2020, 04:56 PM
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#10
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 3,445 User: 366
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QUOTE(Bjork @ Jan 8 2020, 04:37 PM) I'm also up for passively listening to playlists having a different ratio What ratio would you suggest though? Plus would that just be curated playlists chosen by someone at Spotify (for example), or a playlist made by another Spotify user, or a playlist someone has made which they may want to listen to for an hour or two without constantly needing to choose the next track to listen to? I use all three ways of listening to Spotify as well as choosing individual tracks on an ad-hoc basis. |
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8th January 2020, 04:58 PM
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#11
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 28 July 2013 Posts: 5,076 User: 19,614
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If you think that some songs spend too long in the charts, unless you have never discovered a song through the charts, you are part of that problem. Popularity begets more popularity.
btw I cannot see passive playlisting be downweighted in the charts because it's not remotely in Spotify or any other service's best interest, they knowingly make these playlists so they can say they had a hand in making something big. I'd sooner expect them to pull the plug on providing their data at all than to do something like that. And also I think without their playlists the charts would slow down more. This post has been edited by Dircadirca: 8th January 2020, 05:01 PM |
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8th January 2020, 05:19 PM
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#12
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BuzzJack Regular
Joined: 12 September 2010
Posts: 452 User: 11,831
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I don't think playlists are the whole problem, it's how streaming is being counted in general. I think the fact we now have a chart governed by people listening to the same tracks over and over again is the problem.
That said, perhaps removing chart playlists where the top songs will always get first dibs on being streamed and more likely to stay in front and the HH playlist on Spotify being completely changed every couple of weeks might help. I think there's more that could be done to promote new artists and songs that are trying to break through than there is currently. I would actually be intrigued to see how the charts would look if streaming was permanently capped once it had been streamed x amount of times on an individual basis, as i think that would remove a lot of deadweight in the charts if that were the case. This post has been edited by Supercell: 8th January 2020, 05:21 PM |
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8th January 2020, 05:30 PM
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#13
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,833 User: 17,376
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any record that hasn't been specifically chosen by the streamer, or added to a personal playlist, should be removed completely from the chart figures. Passive playlists should be ignored because they are basically the equivalent of a Now album or a Greatest Hits album, and if anything should feature in the album chart because the PLAYLIST has been chosen just the same as if an album has been chosen. No tracks featuring on album or playlist should qualify for the singles chart unless they are being played as chosen tracks by the streamer and not chosen as an album. They should qualify as ALBUM sales only otherwise. I mean, that's pretty much what is happening in the Urban landscape now anyway, and they make the album charts without a physical release even. That they MIGHT be multi-artist compilations (and therefore various artist chart rather than artist chart) is neither here nor there.
That'll sort it, and you won't need the stupid ACR and 3-tracks-rule anymore either as if they are performing as distinct tracks in their own right, away from the album/playlist, there's no reason why they shouldn't appear or have long chart runs, and they won't distort the stupid fake "sales" based on half of it being playlists and more popular streaming figures than were expected 5 years ago. No more than the biggest handful of tracks should reach the equivalent of a "million-seller" each year and play ratios should reflect that to allow it to fit into the annual chart average over decades. It just looks ridiculous and makes any comparison with previous eras pointless. Otherwise, just divide them into Paid Sales and Streamed and leave it at that. |
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8th January 2020, 05:41 PM
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#14
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 13 May 2018 Posts: 2,322 User: 72,030
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Playlist streams are never gonna be discounted, it's just something that needs to be accepted. Mainly cause why would Spotify and other platforms care about the UK official charts. All they want is too have as many song plays as possible and they get this through popular songs that people like being played through playlists. Also I doubt Spotify can even distinguish between playlist plays and a specific play and why would they care to anyway. I would be intrigued to see the impact a streaming cap would have but also don't see how it could be implemented.
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8th January 2020, 05:48 PM
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#15
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Why do today, what you can do tomorrow?
Joined: 7 November 2008
Posts: 10,467 User: 7,645
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What they should of done is worked out the average times a paid for single would get played and put that towards the streaming quota. So for example if I bought 'Dance Monkey on download but only ever played it a total of 50 times, then that's how many plays each account should count towards that single sale. Any further listens to that track would never again count towards the chart.
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8th January 2020, 06:07 PM
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#16
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New Entry
Joined: 22 November 2018
Posts: 20 User: 79,404
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People are so overdramatic over playlist streams it's a bit laughable. The solution to this would be to only count premium streams because users can still skip the tracks, but even the way it is with weighing free streams down is fine. Songs like Dance Monkey etc. are still huge hits and if you took them off playlists then they would still garner lots of streams. Lots of you are just mad the music you like isn't represented in the charts. Lots of songs on Hot Hits UK and Todays Top Hits still bomb on the charts.
I have a premium streaming subscription and I still put curates playlists on because I'm not sure what I'm wanting to listen to specifically and they're also a great way to discover new music. If I didn't like the song I was listening to then I would just skip it but my stream shouldn't be discounted simply because I'm listening from a curated playlist. |
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8th January 2020, 08:47 PM
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#17
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,255 User: 22,665
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but what we were saying earlier was not to remove or dosnweight playlists
only downright passive plays in playlists so it's ok if you check 4 songs, skip 5 songs, play track 26, then play track 55, that's perfectly fine problem is passive plays when people search for Christmas Hits then hits play and streams the whole playlist passively from start to finish without skipping a song |
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8th January 2020, 09:08 PM
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#18
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 you never forget your first time...
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 19 April 2011 Posts: 121,726 User: 13,530 
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But how can you prove it was passive? How do you know the listener wasn't actively listening to every song on that playlist?
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9th January 2020, 07:40 AM
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#19
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,255 User: 22,665
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I know it's not a perfect definition, far from it, but if you go listen to HH from start to song 70 in order and without skipping any song, thats the definition of passive listening
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9th January 2020, 10:45 AM
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#20
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New Entry
Joined: 9 January 2020
Posts: 1 User: 100,293
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QUOTE(Frenchie @ Jan 8 2020, 05:41 PM) Also I doubt Spotify can even distinguish between playlist plays and a specific play and why would they care to anyway. I have access to Spotify's Artist and Label Analytics portals and we have access to where streams have come from including Profile and Catalogue, Listener's Own Playlists and Library, Other Listener's Library, Spotify Algortihmic Playlists, Spotify Editorial Playlists and 'Other' (which is Radio normally). |
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