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 Should Scotland get an indyref2? |
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 Sep 3 2022, 10:54 PM
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#581
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 BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 21 February 2021
Posts: 3,543 User: 124,514 
 
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Oh I hate that idea of something is only valid if x% of the overall electorate vote for it rather than count the votes actually cast. It is fundamentally undemocratic because everyone has the right not to vote if they so wish. Would that be the first election in history the UK run with that stupid rule? Tories are running scared.
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Sep 4 2022, 07:01 AM
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#582
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 Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
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No the original devolution referendum in the 70s had a threshold (40% iirc) and it was fractionally short of that.
The aftermath of that is what lead to the election of thatcher. Trying to tilt the stage is a sign that you know you’ve lost the argument. But they’ve not even tried yet to make an argument!!! Independence for Scotland is when, not if. Demographics show support increasing to well over 70% among younger generations. This is inevitable, and the unionist establishment needs to accept that the final piece of the empire is going |
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Sep 4 2022, 09:17 AM
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#583
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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I don't have a problem with a threshold based on people who vote. If the EU referendum had been binding and had had a threshold applied, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.
However, a system whereby one side's voters (opponents of independence in this case) don't need to bother turning up is totally illegitimate. |
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Sep 6 2022, 09:21 PM
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#584
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,139 User: 5,138
 
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Good news for the people of Scotland today with Nicola Sturgeons cost of living package meaning there will be no evictions this winter and No rent increases!
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Sep 6 2022, 10:02 PM
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#585
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🙄
Joined: 14 February 2010
Posts: 53,654 User: 10,643
         
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she continues to slay
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Nov 24 2022, 02:06 PM
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#586
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,030 User: 18,639
   
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I don't understand how the Supreme Court ruled the way it did. Scotland entered voluntarily and has its own legal system... It should be able to leave voluntarily by ending the agreement on its end.
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Nov 24 2022, 07:02 PM
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#587
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BuzzJack Legend
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 18 March 2013 Posts: 34,750 User: 18,473
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I think the whole thing is rediculous but I feel that it's more or less a win win for sturgeon. Now it shows that Scotland is being held in the union by England and that it isn't voluntary as was originally proclaimed. This might get more people up and out thermir seats if they hadn't realised this already. As for your point though, it's ridiculous it's down to England to permit us to have a referendum in the first place.
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Nov 24 2022, 07:22 PM
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#588
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,030 User: 18,639
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Absolutely! A people held hostage outside of the EU by a neighbour.
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Nov 24 2022, 08:35 PM
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#589
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 BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 26 February 2021
Posts: 3,488 User: 124,683
 
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It’s a joke really
We’re talking about Scotland’s future here which people who live their have the right to decide But Westminster which isn’t even in Scotland don’t allow it? All their doing is buying more time, it’s going to happen eventually  |
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Dec 1 2022, 09:24 AM
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#590
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 WELCOME TO UTOPIA
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 17 June 2022 Posts: 3,937 User: 153,406
  
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I have lived in scotland for a while now, and i just don't get why independance will help Scotland.
1) It would cost Billions to join NATO and the EU putting Scotland in billions of national debt 2) Ms Sturgeon said that we would have an economy from our oil and gas exports, which is bad for the environment and will feed the wrath of climate change. 3) Ms sturgeon said that we would have our own currency (lies) if we were in the EU we would have to use the euro. 4) Breaking relations from some of the best countries in the world is not helpful. 5) Scotland would need to fund its own military. + many more reasons In all i am glad that the supreme court has denied Scotland from being independant as it is just not the logical way forward This post has been edited by Y'all Starlight: Dec 1 2022, 09:24 AM |
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Dec 1 2022, 09:26 AM
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#591
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,030 User: 18,639
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So you're glad a court, rather than the people, decide the democratic future of the people??
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Dec 1 2022, 09:34 AM
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#592
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WELCOME TO UTOPIA
Pronouns: he/him
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QUOTE(The Yettening @ Dec 1 2022, 09:26 AM)  So you're glad a court, rather than the people, decide the democratic future of the people?? No, but there are various examples of when you give power to people who aren't qualified in legal processing or have read any documents concering the downside of indepenance, and in doing that it all goes wrong. All that is seemed to be publicized about is why it is "great". If you actually read my post you would see what i mean. Thinking before someone takes action. I Believe people have a right to be informed of occurrings at parliaments and all discussions should be known about. People 100% have a right to vote, to speak and to be whoever they want but wasn't the last referendum a "Once in a generation" thing. I don't think that generation has been wiped out in 8 years. This post has been edited by Y'all Starlight: Dec 1 2022, 09:44 AM |
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Dec 1 2022, 10:41 AM
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#593
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,069 User: 3,474
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1 - Neither Sweden nor Finland have paid anything to join NATO. Also note that nato members include Albania and Romania, two of the poorest nations in Europe. It should be noted that no one has ever denied that it costs money to create a state. We have to build governmental agencies for things like the DVLA. The Scottish Welfare State already being partly independent does help matter though. As does the fact that healthcare and education and our legal system retained their independence throughout the 300 year union. But this isn’t a bad thing. This would drive growth in the Scottish economy. We would recruit staff for these agencies, any construction would cause economic growth. This isn’t let’s throw 5bn€ in a hole and walk away. The state doing this kind of investment, especially at a time where we are facing a recession, is actually a massive economic driver and leads to growth in the short and long term. Debt isn’t necessarily a bad thing
2 - Mr Salmond said that in 2014. Ms Sturgeon has actually been quite clear that the economic prospectus for Independence is not built upon Oil&Gas at all and it’s about using the sectors huge talent to make Scotland a green energy hub and world leader. 3 - What she has actually said is that we would use GBP initially and then aim to transition to a Scottish currency when economically possible. Moving to the Euro would be a question for the future. It is true that when you join the EU you are obligated to move to the Euro but no time scale is placed upon this. Sweden has not adopted the Euro and has no plans to. Of the post-2004 club, many are yet to join. Poland and Czechia for example have no published timelines for joining the Eurozone and Poland has explicitly said they will not do so until their GDP per capita is 80% of that of Germany. It is still possible for countries to set their own timelines and also that first membership of the ERM II is required for a minimum of two years. Scotland can achieve a defacto opt-out like Sweden by never joining this. Additionally, Scotland can negotiate an opt-out In membership negotiations. We would seek a Schengen opt-out to retain the CTA with rUK and IE for example. The EU is full of opt-outs and Scotland would have the ability to negotiate some of their own. 4 - ??? This is nonsensical at best. Independence gives scotland a seat at the top table and improves our relationships with other countries because we can do things in our name. Scotland would return to the European Union therefore dramatically improving relationships with the worlds largest market and be part of the trade and regulatory superpower. Scotland also has very good relationships with the US, Canada, NZ, the Nordic states and the Celtic states. Independence won’t change any of that. Scotlands relationship with Wales, Ireland or Northern Ireland will be unchanged and the only change with England is that Scotland would become a truly equal partner unable to be dictated to. If that is considered a damage to that relationship then that alone should demonstrate the imbalance of power in the Union and if England being unable to asset strip Scotland is on your „Indy bad, union good“ checklist that says a lot 5 - Do you genuinely think that we don’t currently pay for the UK military? It’s only a minority of taxes raised in Scotland that is returned via the block grant to Holyrood. So Scottish taxes already pay for a military so of course we can afford to maintain a military that is suitable for our needs. We just wouldn’t contribute to the costs of Trident (saving 8bn for Scottish tax payers) Finland is the same population as Scotland and have an excellent military. Many states smaller and equal in size to Scotland have strong militaries and have strong economies. Too wee too poor was said about Malta, they’ve never once considered returning to the empire. As the first of the new white papers noted, Scotland is actually lagging behind peer group independent nations as part of the UK. Independence would allow us to thrive economically. And never has a nation that has left the UK wanted to return. NZ, Malta, Ireland all had England as their largest trading partner before independence, all no longer do and their trading relationships have thrived since their independence forging new connections with other countries and no longer being required to prioritise and serve the whims of the English consumer. |
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Dec 5 2022, 05:23 PM
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#594
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BuzzJack Legend
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 18 March 2013 Posts: 34,750 User: 18,473
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QUOTE(Y @ Dec 1 2022, 09:34 AM) No, but there are various examples of when you give power to people who aren't qualified in legal processing or have read any documents concering the downside of indepenance, and in doing that it all goes wrong. All that is seemed to be publicized about is why it is "great". If you actually read my post you would see what i mean. Thinking before someone takes action. I Believe people have a right to be informed of occurrings at parliaments and all discussions should be known about. People 100% have a right to vote, to speak and to be whoever they want but wasn't the last referendum a "Once in a generation" thing. I don't think that generation has been wiped out in 8 years. Once in a generation or not, things have changed. We vitws to stay in the eu but we were taken out regardless because even though 62% of a Orland voted for that, England hold the overwhelming majority of people in the uk. Not only that but since the ruling by the supreme court, polls are starting to show Scotland wants the choice to vote. Repeating no to a nation entitled to vote on whatever it wants within reason is and has always been stupid. The fact that Westminster can have 3 prime ministers in one year without any sort of input from the public is alright but the fact that Scotland can't have another referendum after 8 years is rediculous. Totally makes so much sense. Democracy is the reason we have so many elections etc... Denying that vote would be anti-democratic and denying a vote to Scotland for its own future is anti-democratic regardless of the fact we had one, eight years ago! |
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