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 Proud to be English? |
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 Jun 8 2018, 06:55 AM
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#21
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 Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,069 User: 3,474 
      
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My family is from Chester, on the border with Wales, and I’ve grown up with ridiculing of the welsh language (and a lack of love towards the welsh in general tbh).
Inventing the TV (Scotland tyvm) can never outweigh the crimes that the English Empire has committed across the world. Urgh honestly what kind of moron comes out with shit like this |
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Jun 8 2018, 07:34 AM
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#22
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jun 8 2018, 07:55 AM)  Inventing the TV (Scotland tyvm) can never outweigh the crimes that the English Empire has committed across the world. Urgh honestly what kind of moron comes out with shit like this The kind that hasn't been brainwashed by anti-British leftist propaganda? |
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Jun 8 2018, 07:37 AM
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#23
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,069 User: 3,474
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That isn’t actually a real thing. It’s not anti-British to acknowledge that the British Empire was actually quite shitty at times
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Jun 8 2018, 07:42 AM
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#24
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jun 8 2018, 08:37 AM) That isn’t actually a real thing. It’s not anti-British to acknowledge that the British Empire was actually quite shitty at times There a difference between *that*, and claiming it has done far more harm than good, though. |
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Jun 8 2018, 08:36 AM
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#25
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 06:44 AM) That seems like an exaggeration to me (the ridicule part) - how many such people can you actually name? It's more to do with history - for example, very many of the technologies we take for granted today were invented in Britain... https://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tec...ons-ever-548346 IMO our accomplishments far outweigh our mistakes. Except that basing your entire argument on technology is full of flaws - some of them were not English, coming with a vague idea about something 200 years before someone actually did it is not the same as inventing - it's an idea. Look at me, I've invented intergalactic travel! I think it will be based on wormhole crabs. (waits 300 years for someone to invent it and give me the credit) Claiming the industrial revolution as a great thing depends on your point of view. from the view of a planet being decimated by it, not so great. In terms of creating disease-ridden workshops for children, yeah also not so great. A slave labour force? tick. Such a simplistic way to judge "success"... My own arguments for England would be more social or artistic, large parts of which is also based on social observations of injustice. THAT is a far better argument: Shakespeare, Beatles, Dickens - and the actions then taken to create social justice, fairness and try to limit the damages of the industrial revolution to the planet. Like the NHS. |
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Jun 8 2018, 09:24 AM
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#26
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Jun 8 2018, 09:36 AM) Except that basing your entire argument on technology is full of flaws - some of them were not English, coming with a vague idea about something 200 years before someone actually did it is not the same as inventing - it's an idea. Look at me, I've invented intergalactic travel! I think it will be based on wormhole crabs. (waits 300 years for someone to invent it and give me the credit) Claiming the industrial revolution as a great thing depends on your point of view. from the view of a planet being decimated by it, not so great. In terms of creating disease-ridden workshops for children, yeah also not so great. A slave labour force? tick. Such a simplistic way to judge "success"... But those are 19th C conditions you are referring to, not 21st C, at least in this country, which is after all the subject of this thread. QUOTE My own arguments for England would be more social or artistic, large parts of which is also based on social observations of injustice. THAT is a far better argument: Shakespeare, Beatles, Dickens - and the actions then taken to create social justice, fairness and try to limit the damages of the industrial revolution to the planet. Like the NHS. But the technological & artistic factors are all intertwined anyway. |
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Jun 8 2018, 12:21 PM
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#27
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 Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 06:44 AM) That seems like an exaggeration to me (the ridicule part) - how many such people can you actually name? It's more to do with history - for example, very many of the technologies we take for granted today were invented in Britain... https://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tec...ons-ever-548346 IMO our accomplishments far outweigh our mistakes. Is this an actual post on Buzzjack?? The right wing is absolutely losing it, but support the Boris Johnsons et al of the world for long enough, and cognitive dissonance will take its toll. The reason for no English pride events is the same reason why there are no straight pride events. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to grasp? |
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Jun 8 2018, 01:09 PM
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#28
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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For one country’s history, we robbed a hundred others of theirs.
I don’t consider individual achievements in either science or the arts to be tied to a country’s worth, so many take inspiration from multiple cultures - the exception is government patronage where that applies. You’re then left with political, a geopolitical force that condoned slavery and racist repression. I’m not proud of that. |
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Jun 8 2018, 01:30 PM
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#29
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 10:24 AM) But those are 19th C conditions you are referring to, not 21st C, at least in this country, which is after all the subject of this thread. But the technological & artistic factors are all intertwined anyway. Bullshit. You can't choose to ignore history and selectively choose a 10-year-window from your youth when your rose-tinted specs are in full-bloom, and then say I'm proud to be English circa 1965 to 1975, and sporadically since. You embrace the whole history of your nation and then work out why if the lies about everyone hating the British are due to it's racist, slavery, genocidal past, or because everyone moans about the Eurovision Song Contest failure to win for 20 years because we have a chip on our "Superego Daily-Mail pushed Great Britain is Godlike and the rest of the world is inferior" shoulders. Patriotism is frequently racism disguised. One can be quietly pleased that as a society we have grown out of a terrible history and accomplished an amount of fairness since we were destroyed economically by far-right flag-waving racist genocidal enslaving foreigners. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or even a Far-Right. I have even been allowed to have sex during my lifetime by this wonderful nation that considered me a criminal when I was born. England is not the best nor the worst country in the world, and if it so keen to brag about itself we'll see how well if does on it's own soon enough and how the other 3 parts of the United Kingdom feel they have been done by. Can't be that great if they want to bugger off. |
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Jun 8 2018, 01:30 PM
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#30
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Queef of Peace @ Jun 8 2018, 01:21 PM) The reason for no English pride events is the same reason why there are no straight pride events. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to grasp? It's not difficult to grasp - it's not that English people aren't proud of their country, but that they are intimidated into not expressing it. QUOTE(Iz @ Jun 8 2018, 02:09 PM) For one country’s history, we robbed a hundred others of theirs. So did the Romans, Mongols, Aztecs, and many many others - but those examples are conveniently forgotten by leftist iconoclasts. This post has been edited by vidcapper: Jun 8 2018, 01:31 PM |
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Jun 8 2018, 03:05 PM
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#31
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 02:30 PM) It's not difficult to grasp - it's not that English people aren't proud of their country, but that they are intimidated into not expressing it. So did the Romans, Mongols, Aztecs, and many many others - but those examples are conveniently forgotten by leftist iconoclasts. Re-read my post above where I gave a whole list of other nations that did the same and ended in etc etc as if this was a feature of all people since homo sapiens first grabbed a bit of wood and murdered someone to get their food. As I repeat to you endlessly justifying something on the grounds that someone else does it, does not and never will pass as an excuse in a court of law: "OK I DID kill my wife, but the bloke down the road killed his wife first!: "Oh that's different then NOT GUILTY!" Honestly, you seriously need to think about morality and your ongoing self-contradictions.... |
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Jun 8 2018, 03:12 PM
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#32
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Jun 8 2018, 04:05 PM) Honestly, you seriously need to think about morality and your ongoing self-contradictions.... My morality is not self-contradictory - it only seems that way because you are unable to understand it. |
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Jun 8 2018, 03:41 PM
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#33
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Radical Pink Troll
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 26,599 User: 177
 
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 06:44 AM) That seems like an exaggeration to me (the ridicule part) - how many such people can you actually name? It's more to do with history - for example, very many of the technologies we take for granted today were invented in Britain... https://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tec...ons-ever-548346 IMO our accomplishments far outweigh our mistakes. Given that I teach the Welsh language in a school literally metres from the Welsh/English border, I’d say I could probably name dozens. Again, I don’t see why people as a collective should feel proud of the achievements of an invdividual that lived many generations ago. We have some horrendous people in our society that contribute nothing and yet bang on about how proud they are as a nation because so and so who did something wonderful 100 years ago was British. And then we have non-Brits actually contributing to society and then being rewarded by having layabouts telling them to f*** off back to their own country. Is this really a place to be proud of? |
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Jun 8 2018, 04:32 PM
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#34
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 02:30 PM) So did the Romans, Mongols, Aztecs, and many many others - but those examples are conveniently forgotten by leftist iconoclasts. No, no, no. I'm sorry, you're wrong. Completely wrong. Conflating European colonialism with ancient imperial empires is so wrong I barely know where to begin. But let's start on what those respective empires actually did to those they conquered. Because of the differences and difficulties in communication ancient empires were very decentralised. The Romans were generally very lenient to their subjects, they were brutal sure, but the extremes that are reported, the sacks of Carthage and Corinth in 146 BC, the burning of Jerusalem in the 1st century, are those that are against the norm and occur when a group of people directly angered and threatened the Roman way of life. The general policy with Roman rule is that cultures kept their traditions and yet also became Romans. In the latter part of the Roman empire, important figures came from Spanish, Gallic, Greek, Croatian, Egyptian backgrounds, it was an empire based on merit, not an individual race, something that was not in play in its European 18th-19th century imitators. Yes there was slavery and immorality but you must account for the time they lived in, what culture would even be held accountable for Roman slavery now, considering it eventually fragmented and merged with migrators to form Frankish, Hispanic, Greek, Italian et al? The Roman Empire shaped all of Europe's histories, it is illogical to argue that it was bad or good because we cannot grasp what the world would be like if it did not exist because of the vast differences that would occur. It's not a good example. The Mongols were a brief terror that in the grand scheme of things barely had a chance to make a mark on history. Its successor states quickly merged into the culture of their areas and the only place where I'd say the Mongol conquests had a real lasting impact by an invading culture is Mughal India, an institution that also didn't intervene with local Indian societies, and their greatest achievements, like say, the Taj Mahal, are now cornerstones of Indian culture. The Aztecs never expanded beyond Mexico so I'm not sure which country's histories they're supposed to have robbed. European colonialism, that's the British, the French, the Spanish, the Dutch, all of them, what they did is they stripped the resources of their victim's countries, installed European governors to rule over what they saw as primitives, committed atrocities regularly to an extent that some places (e.g. the DR Congo) are still messed up to this day, and it's arguable that the entirety of Africa and much of Asia is the poverty-stricken world it is now because Europeans destroyed countries for the home nation's benefit, leaving them with no experience of proper rule or technological advances. The people of Western Europe can be proud of their country (if we keep away from the history and keep it grounded), but they should not be proud of their empires. |
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Jun 8 2018, 07:15 PM
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#35
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 8 2018, 04:12 PM) My morality is not self-contradictory - it only seems that way because you are unable to understand it. People who say "f*** off back to your own country" are not people I identify with anymore than you do. Nor do I intimidate anyone over anything, I accept everyone for what and who they are (my ire is reserved for politicians who lie and are hypocrites). I just peacefully, if strongly, disagree and give examples of why I disagree, bluntly but tactfully. Brexiters in particular soon learn not to bring it up if they don't wish to hear a few examples of why I'm right and they are invariably unable to give me a few examples of why they are right that don't involve racism, fantasy and a complete indifference to what it does to the economy. I'm quite experienced at chatting  You either agree with slavery, genocide and similar little tidbits or you don't. There is no "well you started it" as an excuse. You are the one that made that statement. The correct response is to say: "Yes I acknowledge England's egotistical, enslaving, conquering and damaging Empire, but we are beyond that now and enjoy a largely peaceful, largely fair, society, no thanks to Tories, largely, who only contribute to it when they're forced to by the electorate, rather than lead on it." Hope that helps next time it comes up. You're welcome. |
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Jun 8 2018, 09:13 PM
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#36
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Say that hiss with your chest, and...
Joined: 24 May 2016
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QUOTE(Iz @ Jun 8 2018, 05:32 PM) The people of Western Europe can be proud of their country (if we keep away from the history and keep it grounded), but they should not be proud of their empires. I suppose the Medieval era history before the colonial era in England and the rest of Western Europe is a source of more pride (although there was of course a lot of bad stuff too such as the Crusades). But yes the British Empire and other European colonial empires are definitely not something to be proud about. This post has been edited by Queef Of Peas: Jun 8 2018, 09:18 PM |
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Jun 8 2018, 09:20 PM
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#37
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,409 User: 12,929
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Not even that
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Jun 9 2018, 08:20 AM
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#38
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 3 September 2009
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QUOTE(Queef of Peace @ Jun 8 2018, 01:21 PM) Is this an actual post on Buzzjack?? The right wing is absolutely losing it, but support the Boris Johnsons et al of the world for long enough, and cognitive dissonance will take its toll. The reason for no English pride events is the same reason why there are no straight pride events. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to grasp? But we have St George's Day so we do have an English pride event |
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Jun 9 2018, 09:20 AM
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#39
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(ebae @ Jun 9 2018, 09:20 AM) But we have St George's Day so we do have an English pride event I suppose that could count... 
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Jun 9 2018, 10:24 AM
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#40
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Radical Pink Troll
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 26,599 User: 177
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QUOTE(ebae @ Jun 9 2018, 09:20 AM) But we have St George's Day so we do have an English pride event And exactly what does that entail? St David’s and St Patrick’s Day are well known events and are big parts of Welsh and Irish culture. Most English people don’t know when St George’s Day is. |
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