BuzzJack Music Forum _ News and Politics _ Should Scotland get an indyref2?
Posted by: vidcapper 15th January 2020, 06:32 PM
As above
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 06:45 PM
No. Not for at least another 10 years as they just one 6 years ago.
Posted by: blacksquare 15th January 2020, 07:02 PM
Yes.
Brexit was not a factor during the last referendum — clearly a massive change in circumstance, and one that is pertinent to the future of Scotland. Times are justifiably different. SNP also had a clear election manifesto and won. There is a mandate for it.
It's an issue for Scotland and the Scottish people to decide — not me.
Posted by: Wall 15th January 2020, 07:09 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 06:45 PM)
No. Not for at least another 10 years as they just one 6 years ago.
democracy at its finest
Posted by: Wall 15th January 2020, 07:10 PM
Every single voting station in Scotland votes to remain in the EU and now we have to leave. The SNP are getting so much of a majority these days too that another independence referendum needs to happen soon.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 07:11 PM
QUOTE(Wall @ Jan 15 2020, 07:10 PM)
Every single voting station in Scotland votes to remain in the EU and now we have to leave. The SNP are getting so much of a majority these days too that another independence referendum needs to happen soon.
Write to Boris then. He has the power to allow one but has said no.
Posted by: Harve 15th January 2020, 07:21 PM
Boris Johnson having the power to authorise an indyref or not rather than Scotland's own elected parliament is a reason in itself to vote to end the UK.
The first five words on their own are also a pretty good reason.
Like, I'm not sure how necessary I'd consider independence to be in a world where Scotland had the right to make this most fundamental decision. So yes, from my POV, the Tory approach (dare I make comparisons to Spain?) to this is very unsustainable.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 07:25 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Jan 15 2020, 07:21 PM)
Boris Johnson having the power to authorise an indyref or not rather than Scotland's own elected parliament is a reason in itself to vote to end the UK.
.
They voted to stay 6 years ago. I agree maybe another in the future but it's not long enough yet. I'd say 20 years is about right. Maybe a Labour government will allow one.
Posted by: Harve 15th January 2020, 07:31 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:25 PM)
They voted to stay 6 years ago. I agree maybe another in the future but it's not long enough yet. I'd say 20 years is about right. Maybe a Labour government will allow one.
What's it to you? When do you think the people of Essex should allow Quebec or Bougainville to decide on their future?
Posted by: Suedehead2 15th January 2020, 07:32 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 07:25 PM)
They voted to stay 6 years ago. I agree maybe another in the future but it's not long enough yet. I'd say 20 years is about right. Maybe a Labour government will allow one.
That stance would be justifiable if there had been no material change in circumstances since 2014. As nobody can seriously claim that to be the case, it is perfectly reasonable for the SNP to call for another vote.
Posted by: Wall 15th January 2020, 07:37 PM
The voting was very close but a lot of it was the promise that we would remain in the EU and a ton of false promises by Westminister!
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 15th January 2020, 07:42 PM
The people of Scotland have a right to determine their own future, regardless of what the voters view on that future is. Yes or No, the thing that should be common is the defence of Scotland’s right to self-determination and democracy. The current Westminster government is denying that right and denying democracy.
Additionally, the dictation of terms and “permission” from the alleged equal partner in this union is a demonstration of the need for independence.
Also, Chris and Vid your views have been noted and filed in the nearest waste disposal facility where they belong. Scotland doesn’t need your permission. The Scottish people have voted, repeatedly, for a second referendum and they are what matter. Not you
Posted by: Steve201 15th January 2020, 08:04 PM
Of course they should the Brexit debacle in 2016 has meant a huge constitutional change so there should be another vote if the snp hold the balance of power and had that as part of their manifesto.
The fact a UK PM which is nearly always invariably English is a ridiculous situation.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:07 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 15 2020, 07:32 PM)
That stance would be justifiable if there had been no material change in circumstances since 2014. As nobody can seriously claim that to be the case, it is perfectly reasonable for the SNP to call for another vote.
And in my opinion it's perfectly reasonable for the PM to refuse one.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 15th January 2020, 08:07 PM
It shouldn't be about being ALLOWED. Scotland is a country and should be able to say when the union is or isn't working for it. England would be able to for itself! Scotland should too.
"Additionally, the dictation of terms and “permission” from the alleged equal partner in this union is a demonstration of the need for independence. "
100% THIS!! We are supposed equal partners. Act like it.
Also, the EU referendum has changed everything. EVERYTHING. Remaining in the EU was a cornerstone of the union campaign. That has now gone, and so it's time for another vote. If Cameron knew he was going to call another EU ref , he should have told the Scottish. He didn't, and so the referendum was run under false pretences. It is void.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:10 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 15 2020, 07:42 PM)
Also, Chris and Vid your views have been noted and filed in the nearest waste disposal facility where they belong.
How rude. Maybe Vid should have stated that only Scots could vote and reply. Anyway I bet Boris has filed Nicola's letter in his shredder too.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 15th January 2020, 08:11 PM
I filed his begging letter into my bin after using it for the dog shoite. I know others around here filed it into their kitty litter trays
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:13 PM
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 15 2020, 08:11 PM)
I filed his begging letter into my bin after using it for the dog shoite. I know others around here filed it into their kitty litter trays
Nice to know that Michael.
Posted by: Harve 15th January 2020, 08:13 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 15 2020, 09:04 PM)
The fact a UK PM which is nearly always invariably English is a ridiculous situation.
I mean we have a growing body of evidence that suggests that a large portion of English voters just don't like Scottish politicians, nobody which side they're on.
Posted by: T Boy 15th January 2020, 08:15 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 07:25 PM)
They voted to stay 6 years ago. I agree maybe another in the future but it's not long enough yet. I'd say 20 years is about right. Maybe a Labour government will allow one.
This is a ridiculous post dripping with trolling intent.
Of course Scotland should get another referendum. It’s clear the nation don’t like where the ‘union’ is going. Utterly ridiculous for someone not Scottish and with no intention of ever visiting Scotland to say they can’t have another vote.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 15th January 2020, 08:15 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:13 PM)
Nice to know that Michael.
The non-scab north east and Scotland want nothing to do with him. We deserve independence votes. One for Scotland and one for the north to join Scotland if they'll have us.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:18 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Jan 15 2020, 08:15 PM)
This is a ridiculous post dripping with trolling intent.
Of course Scotland should get another referendum. It’s clear the nation don’t like where the ‘union’ is going. Utterly ridiculous for someone not Scottish and with no intention of ever visiting Scotland to say they can’t have another vote.
I don't control whether they can have one or not. Boris Johnson does. I agree they should have one but not just yet.
Posted by: T Boy 15th January 2020, 08:20 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:18 PM)
I don't control whether they can have one or not. Boris Johnson does. I agree they should have one but not just yet.
But why not yet? Give me a reason that isn’t ‘but they had one 6 years ago.’
I doubt that you can.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:24 PM
Why ask me? Write to Boris and ask him. He's the guy refusing one.
Has he ever actually given a reason? He must have replied to Nicola's letter by now.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 15th January 2020, 08:27 PM
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 15 2020, 09:15 PM)
The non-scab north east and Scotland want nothing to do with him. We deserve independence votes. One for Scotland and one for the north to join Scotland if they'll have us.
Soz but we don’t want you. Tory and Brexit. Big pass, however we will gladly take your giant Nissan factory. We’ve already got North East Scotland and the bloody borders. Don’t need North East England holding us back too
Posted by: T Boy 15th January 2020, 08:34 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:24 PM)
Why ask me? Write to Boris and ask him. He's the guy refusing one.
Has he ever actually given a reason? He must have replied to Nicola's letter by now.
Why am I having to write to the prime minister asking why you think they shouldn’t have another referendum for twenty years? You said that in this thread. Why can’t you ever back up anything you say? You just hide behind the prime minister all the time.
Posted by: Steve201 15th January 2020, 08:45 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:24 PM)
Why ask me? Write to Boris and ask him. He's the guy refusing one.
Has he ever actually given a reason? He must have replied to Nicola's letter by now.
Are you the spokesman for Johnson on the politics forum?? You recite him and say well that's what he said when challenged - that's trolling!
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:49 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Jan 15 2020, 08:34 PM)
Why am I having to write to the prime minister asking why you think they shouldn’t have another referendum for twenty years? You said that in this thread. Why can’t you ever back up anything you say? You just hide behind the prime minister all the time.
I just think it's not long enough since the last referendum. Some people want to keep having them until they get the result they want. What would you say if it was another vote to stay in the UK? Have another and another? They're expensive, cost millions!
Posted by: Crazy Chris 15th January 2020, 08:51 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 15 2020, 08:45 PM)
Are you the spokesman for Johnson on the politics forum?? You recite him and say well that's what he said when challenged - that's trolling!
Oh stop bullying me. Vid posed the question. He didn't even asked you to explain your answer.
Posted by: T Boy 15th January 2020, 08:55 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:49 PM)
I just think it's not long enough since the last referendum. Some people want to keep having them until they get the result they want. What would you say if it was another vote to stay in the UK? Have another and another? They're expensive, cost millions!
Yeah you’ve said that but then people have countered that point with the fact that the UK isn’t going to be the same as the one promised last time and you’ve just ignored the points as per.
Why do you think the people of Scotland should be forced to leave the EU they didn’t even vote to leave? And why would them having another on this be a bad thing given the changes in circumstance?
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 15th January 2020, 09:04 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 15 2020, 08:27 PM)
Soz but we don’t want you. Tory and Brexit. Big pass, however we will gladly take your giant Nissan factory. We’ve already got North East Scotland and the bloody borders. Don’t need North East England holding us back too
It's be for the north in general. I imagine Newcastle would join and Northumbria, but not Sland, Durham, the Lakes, etc. Newcastle would fit right in. Liverpool should be given a vote on being part of it too.
Posted by: Harve 15th January 2020, 09:15 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 09:18 PM)
I don't control whether they can have one or not. Boris Johnson does.
The ludicrous thing is that you do control it actually, because you, a voter in England, elects Scotland's government.
Posted by: Wall 15th January 2020, 09:27 PM
I’d happily take Newcastle but unfortunately despite being so close, it’s still England x
Posted by: *Tim 15th January 2020, 11:04 PM
#Sclosure!!!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 15th January 2020, 11:46 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Jan 15 2020, 07:02 PM)
Yes.
Brexit was not a factor during the last referendum — clearly a massive change in circumstance, and one that is pertinent to the future of Scotland. Times are justifiably different. SNP also had a clear election manifesto and won. There is a mandate for it.
It's an issue for Scotland and the Scottish people to decide — not me.
Exactly this.
I was against independence in 2014, now I am fully for it - with a view to moving to Scotland if it manages to go independent.
Posted by: Rooney 15th January 2020, 11:52 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Jan 15 2020, 11:46 PM)
Exactly this.
I was against independence in 2014, now I am fully for it - with a view to moving to Scotland if it manages to go independent.
There's no guarantee independence would work for them though, just like Brexit. It's just nationalism.
Anyway, I am a big lover of the collective Union and ideally would like the UK to stay together as we are more powerful in the world as a Union. But I think whether people like it or not there's going to be another referendum in the medium term and the current stance of the Tories will likely push the swing voters to voting for independence.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th January 2020, 12:02 AM
It's not quite the same though is it because the SNP and the majority of their supporters are strong advocates of the EU and they would use independence to apply to become a full member state.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 12:19 AM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Jan 15 2020, 11:52 PM)
There's no guarantee independence would work for them though, just like Brexit. It's just nationalism.
Anyway, I am a big lover of the collective Union and ideally would like the UK to stay together as we are more powerful in the world as a Union. But I think whether people like it or not there's going to be another referendum in the medium term and the current stance of the Tories will likely push the swing voters to voting for independence.
A one party state of vile tories and their disgusting policies does not work for us in the north.
Posted by: Jüpiter👑 16th January 2020, 01:55 AM
Absolutely yes.
Fascinated that we have as many as four no's!
But yes because absolutely everything about the Better Together campaign was quickly revealed to be outright lies to keep Scotland and Scottish people under the English heel, and the treatment of Scottish and really all non-English people within the UK in the last five years has been nothing short of abhorrent. It didn't have to be that way - English people in the government actively chose to split their citizens into first and second class. That's just uncomfortable and unhealthy for the long-term stability of a nation.
Posted by: Iz~ 16th January 2020, 03:24 AM
Yes, yes, absolutely yes.
I love the idea of the Union but only as much as all four countries in the Union also love the idea of it. If Scotland wants to leave they must be allowed to leave and circumstances have clearly changed since the last one.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 06:01 AM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 15 2020, 07:42 PM)
The people of Scotland have a right to determine their own future, regardless of what the voters view on that future is.
Also, Chris and Vid your views have been noted and filed in the nearest waste disposal facility where they belong. Scotland doesn’t need your permission. The Scottish people have voted, repeatedly, for a second referendum and they are what matter. Not you
1. Yet when *we* did so, via the Brexit Referendum that was somehow wrong?
2. That's a shame you think my (previously unexpressed in this thread) views should be binned, as you've just throw away my Yes note.
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 15 2020, 08:04 PM)
Of course they should the Brexit debacle in 2016 has meant a huge constitutional change so there should be another vote if the snp hold the balance of power and had that as part of their manifesto.
The fact a UK PM which is nearly always invariably English is a ridiculous situation.
Why didn't Gordon Brown grant a referendum when he was PM, then?
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 15 2020, 08:15 PM)
The non-scab north east and Scotland want nothing to do with him. We deserve independence votes. One for Scotland and one for the north to join Scotland if they'll have us.
You're now calling everywhere in England outside the NE 'scabs'? That's a bit extreme!
QUOTE(Harve @ Jan 15 2020, 09:15 PM)
The ludicrous thing is that you do control it actually, because you, a voter in England, elects Scotland's government.
I thought the SNP considered Holyrood to be Scotland's government?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 07:38 AM
QUOTE(Jüpiter👑 @ Jan 16 2020, 01:55 AM)
Absolutely yes.
Fascinated that we have as many as four no's!
Make that 5 now! People are entitled to their opinions, within the law, whether others like them or not. That's called living in a free country, Should we all vote yes to please everyone here?
Posted by: Steve201 16th January 2020, 08:22 AM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 15 2020, 08:51 PM)
Oh stop bullying me. Vid posed the question. He didn't even asked you to explain your answer.
How on earth is that bullying I am asking you to account for what your saying with more than 'that's what Boris said'!
Posted by: Steve201 16th January 2020, 08:23 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 06:01 AM)
1. Yet when *we* did so, via the Brexit Referendum that was somehow wrong?
2. That's a shame you think my (previously unexpressed in this thread) views should be binned, as you've just throw away my Yes note. Why didn't Gordon Brown grant a referendum when he was PM, then? You're now calling everywhere in England outside the NE 'scabs'? That's a bit extreme! I thought the SNP considered Holyrood to be Scotland's government?
It wasn't an issue when Brown was PM, the SNP only became the majority government in 2007 so had to show they could govern first.
Posted by: Iz~ 16th January 2020, 08:24 AM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 07:38 AM)
Make that 5 now! People are entitled to their opinions, within the law, whether others like them or not. That's called living in a free country, Should we all vote yes to please everyone here?
Defend your opinion.
Posted by: Jüpiter👑 16th January 2020, 08:47 AM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 07:38 AM)
Make that 5 now! People are entitled to their opinions, within the law, whether others like them or not. That's called living in a free country, Should we all vote yes to please everyone here?
I'm not surprised by some bc I know some of you are authoritarian which obviously informs your response, I just found interesting that besides the two of you who are defending/explaining your position there are a number of respondents too shy to. It made me wonder who they might be & whether their reasons for that belief are the same.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 08:56 AM
QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jan 16 2020, 08:24 AM)
Defend your opinion.
You want Chris to, without defending yours?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 09:00 AM
QUOTE(Jüpiter👑 @ Jan 16 2020, 08:47 AM)
I'm not surprised by some bc I know some of you are authoritarian which obviously informs your response, I just found interesting that besides the two of you who are defending/explaining your position there are a number of respondents too shy to. It made me wonder who they might be & whether their reasons for that belief are the same.
Probably too shy or scared to admit to voting no as they'll be virtually chased off the forum and it shouldn't be like that. You're a pariah here if you don't vote like the majority. Same in the Brexit referendum.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 09:19 AM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 09:00 AM)
Probably too shy or scared to admit to voting no as they'll be virtually chased off the forum and it shouldn't be like that. You're a pariah here if you don't vote like the majority. Same in the Brexit referendum.
That's a probable explanation as to why the Tories unexpectedly won the GE by as much as they did, too. People should never be shamed for/ashamed of, expressing their true opinions.
Posted by: Klaus 16th January 2020, 09:46 AM
There's expressing opinions and then there's just mindlessly repeating whatever Johnson or Trump says without any evaluation but instead stating you take it as truth because of their positions.
In particular, seeing no problem if one of them was going to carry out an act of genocide.
Posted by: Iz~ 16th January 2020, 09:56 AM
Daily reminder that being asked to defend and justify your opinions is not in any shape or form being 'chased off of the forum'. Why is it fair for the Scots to not have the right to self-determinate now circumstances have changed?
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 08:56 AM)
You want Chris to, without defending yours?
QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jan 16 2020, 03:24 AM)
Yes, yes, absolutely yes.
I love the idea of the Union but only as much as all four countries in the Union also love the idea of it. If Scotland wants to leave they must be allowed to leave and circumstances have clearly changed since the last one.
I did not say that, if you wish, go right ahead. I have never not defended my opinion when challenged upon it using this forum. Chris and you make it a daily habit.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 10:31 AM
QUOTE(Klaus @ Jan 16 2020, 09:46 AM)
There's expressing opinions and then there's just mindlessly repeating whatever Johnson or Trump says without any evaluation but instead stating you take it as truth because of their positions.
In particular, seeing no problem if one of them was going to carry out an act of genocide.
Are you replying to me or Chris, as my opinions are my own, and any agreement is just coincidence.
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 16th January 2020, 12:00 PM
Yes, of course. The appetite for one is undeniable and irrefutable, so why should it be denied?
I can’t exactly blame Scotland for not wanting to be tied to this festering sinkhole of a country, especially one so intent on catastrophic self-implosion.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 12:58 PM
QUOTE(Tawdry Hepburn @ Jan 16 2020, 12:00 PM)
Yes, of course. The appetite for one is undeniable and irrefutable, so why should it be denied?
I can’t exactly blame Scotland for not wanting to be tied to this festering sinkhole of a country, especially one so intent on catastrophic self-implosion.
From a cynical pov, the Tories should grant one ASAP. If the SNP win, it would give the Tories an almost permanent majority in the rest of the UK, If the SNP lost, they'd lose their main bargaining chip, and wee Jimmy krankee would surely have to go...
Posted by: blacksquare 16th January 2020, 01:08 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 08:56 AM)
You want Chris to, without defending yours?
Iz~ consistently presents arguments with reasoning and explanations. Chris, as this thread has proven again, mostly does not. These comments are as tiring as ever.
It shouldn't be difficult to explain your arguments.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 01:15 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Jan 16 2020, 01:08 PM)
Iz~ consistently presents arguments with reasoning and explanations. Chris, as this thread has proven again, mostly does not. These comments are as tiring as ever.
It shouldn't be difficult to explain your arguments.
In case you missed it, I voted the same way as most here, so those arguments have already been made...
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 02:02 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 06:01 AM)
1.
You're now calling everywhere in England outside the NE 'scabs'? That's a bit extreme!
Wrong. Just Scottish and northern Tories.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 02:19 PM
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 16 2020, 02:02 PM)
Wrong. Just Scottish and northern Tories.
You do realise Brown was a labour pm, right?
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 02:23 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 02:19 PM)
You do realise Brown was a labour pm, right?
And Scotland was far happier under Labour and with the direction the UK was going. The two countries have since massively diverged. Your point is irrelevant. The Tories keep using the spectre of Scotland "controlling" England to win, even though England controlling Scotland in a union of equals is seen as normal.
Posted by: vidcapper 16th January 2020, 02:45 PM
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 16 2020, 02:23 PM)
The Tories keep using the spectre of Scotland "controlling" England to win,
Another in your series of bizarre ideas about the Tories.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 02:54 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 16 2020, 02:45 PM)
Another in your series of bizarre ideas about the Tories.
"Coalition of Chaos"
Plus countless other attacks in the press and through soundbites/ interviews.
Posted by: januarysalesnake 16th January 2020, 02:55 PM
I would support an indyref2, circumstances have changed considerably because of Brexit so I don't think it is undemocratic to have another referendum there.
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 15 2020, 08:27 PM)
Soz but we don’t want you. Tory and Brexit. Big pass, however we will gladly take your giant Nissan factory. We’ve already got North East Scotland and the bloody borders. Don’t need North East England holding us back too
It's also worth remembering that as well as northern England, there is a possibility that some former Northern Ireland unionists, seeing that the Union is over, may want Northern Ireland to join with Scotland if Scotland becomes independent in a last ditch attempt to avoid a United Ireland which they are opposed to, but again I doubt Scottish nationalists would support such a move.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 04:32 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Jan 16 2020, 01:08 PM)
Iz~ consistently presents arguments with reasoning and explanations. Chris, as this thread has proven again, mostly does not. These comments are as tiring as ever.
It shouldn't be difficult to explain your arguments.
Oxford Dictionary definition of opinion. "A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."
It's just an individual viewpoint then. I don't really have another reason besides thinking that 6 years isn't a long enough gap between them. Satisfied now?
Why do I hate Dance Monkey when many others love it? I just do! I can't really explain why.
My cousin hates tuna with a passion but loves salmon and all other fish and seafood. When I asked him WHY he hates it, as I love it, he says he doesn't know, just does. Has everything in this world to have a reason?
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 04:36 PM
Common Sense has just stumbled across the philosophical question about free will and what makes us us We have no free will over what we like, as that is decided for us - but by what?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 04:40 PM
QUOTE(Auld Lang Peen @ Jan 16 2020, 04:36 PM)
Common Sense has just stumbled across the philosophical question about free will and what makes us us We have no free will over what we like, as that is decided for us - but by what?
Of course it's decided by us but it doesn't always have a reason.
No wonder new posters won't come in here if everything must be backed with a reason. It would put me off posting. Me and Vid get blamed for members not wantiing to post here but look more closely at yourselves.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 04:41 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 04:40 PM)
Of course it's decided by us but it doesn't always have a reason.
No wonder new posters won't come in here if everything must be backed with a reason. It would put me off posting. Me and Vid get blamed for members not wantiing to post here but look more closely at yourselves.
It's not and that's why we don't really have free will x
Posted by: T Boy 16th January 2020, 06:07 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 04:40 PM)
Of course it's decided by us but it doesn't always have a reason.
No wonder new posters won't come in here if everything must be backed with a reason. It would put me off posting. Me and Vid get blamed for members not wantiing to post here but look more closely at yourselves.
With all due respect, maybe should shouldn’t be posting in here. This particular area of the site is here for discussion and debate and you’ve admitted that your opinions are uninformed and that you don’t want to have to explain yourself. This means you’re in the wrong place. You can’t just come in here and parrot the same sentences and then get upset when people want to discuss it properly with you.
And don’t do the ‘you’re putting off new members’ thing. Many well seasoned debaters won’t come into this forum anymore precisely because of the posting behaviour of yours I’ve outlined above. It makes these threads feel like troll threads and is more likely to put off newer members.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 06:15 PM
Fine. Have it all to yourselves then. You don't like it when anyone has an opinion other than the majority. IE Brexiteer, against another Scottish referendum, fan of Trump.
I wouldn't mind but you asked for a reason and I gave it. They had one just six years ago. The SNP and Sturgeon are obsessed with Scottish independence as that's what their party stands for. Doesn't mean it would be good for Scotland. Like Brexit no-one really knows.
Won't post here anymore then.
Posted by: Suedehead2 16th January 2020, 06:30 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 06:15 PM)
Fine. Have it all to yourselves then. You don't like it when anyone has an opinion other than the majority. IE Brexiteer, against another Scottish referendum, fan of Trump.
I wouldn't mind but you asked for a reason and I gave it. They had one just six years ago. The SNP and Sturgeon are obsessed with Scottish independence as that's what their party stands for. Doesn't mean it would be good for Scotland. Like Brexit no-one really knows.
Won't post here anymore then.
But you haven't addressed the counter-arguments. That's the point. We want people with conflicting opinions, but we also want them to engage in discussion. That means responding when somebody challenges your argument.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 16th January 2020, 06:32 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jan 16 2020, 06:30 PM)
But you haven't addressed the counter-arguments. That's the point. We want people with conflicting opinions, but we also want them to engage in discussion. That means responding when somebody challenges your argument.
I have said because they had one 6 years ago. I know things have changed and we're leaving the EU but still doesn't seem long enough to me. Should be for the next generation to decide imo.
Has Boris ever said why he won't allow another? I'd be interested to know as Cameron allowed one.
Posted by: Calum 16th January 2020, 06:35 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 06:15 PM)
Doesn't mean it would be good for Scotland. Like Brexit no-one really knows.
We've got a far better idea of what an independent Scotland would look like than a post-Brexit Britain, considering the Scottish government actually took the time to produce a 650-page document outlining every aspect of life moving forward. Boris gives you nothing but soundbites, false promises, lies and deceit and that's somehow comparable to you?
Voted yes in the poll.
Posted by: Auld Lang Peen 16th January 2020, 06:38 PM
And Brexshit promised different shades and textures of brexshit to everyone. Apparently it's a hard one now, but at the time it was going to be soft.
Posted by: Suedehead2 16th January 2020, 06:42 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 16 2020, 06:32 PM)
I have said because they had one 6 years ago. I know things have changed and we're leaving the EU but still doesn't seem long enough to me. Should be for the next generation to decide imo.
Has Boris ever said why he won't allow another? I'd be interested to know as Cameron allowed one.
But one of the No campaign's strongest arguments was that voting No was the only way of being sure of staying in the EU. That is no longer the case. That is the key reason why a new vote is justified.
If Remain had won the referendum (or the government had the guts to admit that Leave only won by breaking the law and the leaving will be hugely damaging) then it would be a lot harder to justify a new vote barely five years after the last one.
Posted by: vidcapper 19th January 2020, 09:08 AM
Here's a Youtube video about an Independent Scotland joining the EU (admittedly it's quite old).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbYy0d1H6Q4
Posted by: *Tim 19th January 2020, 09:34 AM
Spain would've blocked Scotland joining if they became independent 5 years ago, given their troublrs with Catalunya and how it might affect the fight for indelendence. But now that the UK is leaving, Scotland joining wouldn't set a precedent for Catalunya joining the EU.
I'm not sure why Italy and Belgium are mentioned. Sure there's a north south devision in both nations, but in Italy they're not very strong and in Belgium a possible split would be agreed upon by both sides
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 19th January 2020, 12:17 PM
Spain has repeatedly said, on the record, that it would not block an independent Scotland joining the EU where independence is achieved through legal means. And that was the old right wing government.
Posted by: Steve201 19th January 2020, 12:28 PM
Where does the SNP go from here then? They seem stuck in position and Johnson knows this and the longer passes from now the less likely it'll happen as their support inevitably lessens as time moves on.
There really needs to be a clarification as to what should happen if one of the national legislators in Edinburgh, Belfast or Cardiff want a vote to break from the UK. In the GFA it was (purposely) left ambiguous so Westminster could take the lead and have a veto over it. Probably Sinn Feins biggest own goal of the GFA talks that a british(nearly always Tory) SOS will decide if 'conditions are preferable for a border poll'. Turkeys will never vote for Christmas after all.
Brexit is clearly a huge constitutional change which has (mainly) been pushed by English tories and so freedom should be given to campaign for a referendum in whatever National Assemblies want it.
There's 2 people bringing this to the courts in NI, a solicitor from County Down and victims campaigner Raymond McCord.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 31st January 2020, 10:06 AM
Should Scotland be an independent country? (YouGov, 22nd-27th January 2020):
Yes 51% (+7) No 49% (-7)
49 years and under: 65% Yes 35% No
Posted by: Harve 31st January 2020, 03:33 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 31 2020, 11:06 AM)
49 years and under: 65% Yes 35% No
Those young, naive 46-year-old students will come to their senses once they have some life experience.
Posted by: LMLou 31st January 2020, 03:36 PM
If more and more opinion polls start showing a clearer lead for pro-independence, it would be completely un-democratic to refuse a second referendum to take place. I personally would prefer to wait a little longer for a point where it seems fairly certain Yes would win, as if No wins again it'll be a huge embarrassment for the SNP.
Posted by: Forever European 31st January 2020, 03:43 PM
I think this confirms that Silas was reet and the UK will never rejoin the EU, as its constituent parts will instead. Englabd may never join again, or at least for 100 years or so, and may just relish in its misery and stubbornly continue as a us vassal state. Brexshitters selling our independence to the US and turning us into a vassal state is just delicious irony! We lost our independence. We now run around with a begging cap and exist as America's full vassal. This is what happens when you ignore your continent as a small country without autarchy, and cut every single trade deal you have, in a globalised world. We warned you!!
Scotland will not stick around for this. As Scotland and NI leave, the new UK will be even weaker and even more dependent on trade deal scraps from the big players around the table, and even more dependent on the USA.
Posted by: vidcapper 31st January 2020, 03:48 PM
QUOTE(Forever European @ Jan 31 2020, 03:43 PM)
I think this confirms that Silas was reet and the UK will never rejoin the EU, as its constituent parts will instead. Englabd may never join again, or at least for 100 years or so, and may just relish in its misery and stubbornly continue as a us vassal state. Brexshitters selling our independence to the US and turning us into a vassal state is just delicious irony! We lost our independence. We now run around with a begging cap and exist as America's full vassal. This is what happens when you ignore your continent as a small country without autarchy, and cut every single trade deal you have, in a globalised world. We warned you!!
Scotland will not stick around for this. As Scotland and NI leave, the new UK will be even weaker and even more dependent on trade deal scraps from the big players around the table, and even more dependent on the USA.
Since when did you start believing opinion polls - you didn't before the GE...
BTW, can't you try to make one post without the use of hyperbole?
Posted by: Forever European 31st January 2020, 03:55 PM
Opinion polls have always downplayed yes before now, so that is even more reason to believe them when they have a slight lead for it. It also matches the anecdotal evidence from Scotland about how massive the yes movement is now. You brexit lot have ended the UK. Congratulations. It's now inevitable that it will break up. Don't say we didn't warn you. We did. Many, many, many times.
Also, how will denying the English and Welsh people freedom of movement work well after Scotland goes indie? There will be a brand new border - and a particularly long one at that. It'll likely be a soft border too, which means that anyone who wants to visit England can do so via Scotland. Also, imagine the flood of remainers pouring into Scotland, further weakening England with another brain drain. What do you make of that?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 31st January 2020, 03:59 PM
QUOTE(LMLou @ Jan 31 2020, 03:36 PM)
If more and more opinion polls start showing a clearer lead for pro-independence, it would be completely un-democratic to refuse a second referendum to take place. I personally would prefer to wait a little longer for a point where it seems fairly certain Yes would win, as if No wins again it'll be a huge embarrassment for the SNP.
Exactly.
Posted by: vidcapper 31st January 2020, 04:19 PM
QUOTE(Forever European @ Jan 31 2020, 03:55 PM)
Opinion polls have always downplayed yes before now, so that is even more reason to believe them when they have a slight lead for it. It also matches the anecdotal evidence from Scotland about how massive the yes movement is now. You brexit lot have ended the UK. Congratulations. It's now inevitable that it will break up. Don't say we didn't warn you. We did. Many, many, many times.
Also, how will denying the English and Welsh people freedom of movement work well after Scotland goes indie? There will be a brand new border - and a particularly long one at that. It'll likely be a soft border too, which means that anyone who wants to visit England can do so via Scotland. Also, imagine the flood of remainers pouring into Scotland, further weakening England with another brain drain. What do you make of that?
What I make of it, is you doing your usual tactic of predicting the worst possible consequences, with little evidence other than your own opinions.
Posted by: Forever European 31st January 2020, 04:22 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 31 2020, 04:19 PM)
What I make of it, is you doing your usual tactic of predicting the worst possible consequences, with little evidence other than your own opinions.
Except for the fact that it is highly likely now. So what do you make of it?
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 06:10 PM
@Michael - our border with little England is actually quite short and there are very few actual crossing points. Compared to the intra-Ireland border it’s very easy to deal with
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 31 2020, 11:06 AM)
Should Scotland be an independent country? (YouGov, 22nd-27th January 2020):
Yes 51% (+7) No 49% (-7)
49 years and under: 65% Yes 35% No
For the coffin dodgers it’s 75% No. proving yet again the walking dead are holding back our country from those who will actually be alive long enough to live with the consequences.
By pure demographics alone, Scotland will vote to become independent within the next 10 years. The end of the UK is here.
Posted by: vidcapper 31st January 2020, 06:11 PM
QUOTE(Forever European @ Jan 31 2020, 04:22 PM)
Except for the fact that it is highly likely now. So what do you make of it?
Can you put a probability figure on your worst case scenario?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 31st January 2020, 06:13 PM
QUOTE(Forever European @ Jan 31 2020, 04:22 PM)
Except for the fact that it is highly likely now.
Says who?
Posted by: Crazy Chris 31st January 2020, 06:15 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 31 2020, 06:10 PM)
By pure demographics alone, Scotland will vote to become independent within the next 10 years. The end of the UK is here.
They can only vote yes if they get a vote though. It'll need a new PM as Boris adamant he's not going to allow one whilst he's in charge.
Posted by: Forever European 31st January 2020, 06:19 PM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Jan 31 2020, 06:15 PM)
They can only vote yes if they get a vote though. It'll need a new PM as Boris adamant he's not going to allow one whilst he's in charge.
We now live in a one party story state. Of course the wannabe dictator refuses more democracy!
I wouldn't be surprised if he gets rid of thr fixed terms act and calls a "brexshit celebratory election" whilst riding even higher. Gross.
Also, that's my average scenario. My worst case scenario is FAR worse.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 06:20 PM
Aye and he was adamant he’d die in a ditch rather than leave the EU on 31st January instead of 31st October and *checks notes* we leave on 31/1 and he isnae dead in a ditch. Get your head out his arse and wake up
Posted by: Crazy Chris 31st January 2020, 06:20 PM
Let's see what he says at 10pm then.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 07:02 PM
Gonna go ahead and guess that it’ll be nothing of any substance or use
Posted by: Steve201 31st January 2020, 10:33 PM
I DARE SNP MPS TO DO A SINN FEIN AND FOLLOW WORDS WITH DEEDS BY WALKING OUT OF WESTMINSTER!!!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 31st January 2020, 10:40 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 31 2020, 06:10 PM)
By pure demographics alone, Scotland will vote to become independent within the next 10 years. The end of the UK is here.
Indeed, and it is sad for me personally and not something that I particularly celebrate because I did used to believe in the union and the UK as a state.
No longer.
Posted by: Steve201 31st January 2020, 11:04 PM
The UK has always been a failed state for many Irish people.
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 11:24 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 31 2020, 11:33 PM)
I DARE SNP MPS TO DO A SINN FEIN AND FOLLOW WORDS WITH DEEDS BY WALKING OUT OF WESTMINSTER!!!
It leaves one Red Tory, 4 Orange Tories and 6 actual Tories as Scotland’s voice in the alleged union of equals. They get treated poorly but I hope they remain for every last second of Scotland imprisonment in this “union” and causing as much agro as they can in the meantime.
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Jan 31 2020, 11:40 PM)
Indeed, and it is sad for me personally and not something that I particularly celebrate because I did used to believe in the union and the UK as a state.
No longer.
I get where you’re coming from. 6 years ago I firmly believed in a DevoMax style solution that had the benefits of the UK, our continued EU membership and allowed Scotland more control to flourish. I now accept that only the South East of England can flourish in our union and these past 6 years have shown that Scotland and England want a different future. A substantial minority in England want the same future as the substantial majority in Scotland, and for them I am truly sorry. However, they will always be welcome in Scotland. Come on up, the kettles oan
Posted by: Steve201 31st January 2020, 11:28 PM
Always wondered what the difference between Scottish and Irish nationalism is? Maybe they are just different nations completely?!
Posted by: 5 Silas Frøkner 31st January 2020, 11:33 PM
being flippant, Scottish nationalism is a bit less shooty/bomby than Irish nationalism!
I think both countries have a fundamentally different relationship with England that drives the nationalist movements. For Ireland my understanding is that it was a more overt and systematic oppression but Scotland’s was more by stealth and was enabled by the upper echelons of Scottish Society. We almost oppressed ourselves - “the Scottish cringe” comes to mind - and wilfully participated until we realised the wool had been pulled over our eyes. Y’all fought from the start, as we initially did, but y’all never gave up and I respect that.
Posted by: Steve201 31st January 2020, 11:35 PM
Yeh seems to be more emotional than Scotland which has strong links with the crown whereas Ireland had its own system of governance before the plantations, a different culture and societal organisation which wasn't hugely dominated by the romans before the medieval era.
Posted by: Silas EU Later 1st February 2020, 01:38 PM
Unison has backed the holding of Indyref2 at a time selected by the democratically elected parliament of Scotland.
This is big.
Posted by: Wall 1st February 2020, 01:56 PM
Yasssss
The media are really trying to portray Scotland were celebrating Brexit with 20’people in George square but fail to mention the marches and protests of everywhere else
Posted by: Steve201 1st February 2020, 11:52 PM
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 1 2020, 01:38 PM)
Unison has backed the holding of Indyref2 at a time selected by the democratically elected parliament of Scotland.
This is big.
Good news, need to pressure the British government from all quarters of society.
Posted by: Steve201 1st February 2020, 11:54 PM
QUOTE(Wall @ Feb 1 2020, 01:56 PM)
Yasssss
The media are really trying to portray Scotland were celebrating Brexit with 20’people in George square but fail to mention the marches and protests of everywhere else
BBC 1 and channel 4 which I was watching it was the opposite they were trying to show the contrast between London & Edinburgh!
Posted by: vidcapper 2nd February 2020, 05:51 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 1 2020, 11:52 PM)
Good news, need to pressure the British government from all quarters of society.
Oh yes, I'm sure the tories will be impressed by the SNP's endorsement by an organisation that hates them...
Posted by: Silas EU Later 2nd February 2020, 09:35 AM
Been 34.5 hrs and the EU are already queuing up like “feel like pure shit, just want Scotland back”
Posted by: Steve201 2nd February 2020, 01:10 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 2 2020, 05:51 AM)
Oh yes, I'm sure the tories will be impressed by the SNP's endorsement by an organisation that hates them...
It doesn't matter the trade unions are still an important organisation in civil society and the Tory government works daily with them whether they like them or not. So it is an important endorsement.
Posted by: The S***e 2nd February 2020, 07:02 PM
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Jan 31 2020, 06:10 PM)
By pure demographics alone, Scotland will vote to become independent within the next 10 years.
Same with NI, demography is going towards nationalism too in many areas, the change of MP in North Belfast in the last election being a prime example (although there were other factors like anti-Brexitism there too)
QUOTE
Indeed, and it is sad for me personally and not something that I particularly celebrate because I did used to believe in the union and the UK as a state.
Same here, in NI there has been a growing sense of being 'Northern Irish' rather than 'British' or 'Irish' which appealed to me and I wanted Northern Ireland to remain as a sub-country.
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jan 31 2020, 11:28 PM)
Always wondered what the difference between Scottish and Irish nationalism is? Maybe they are just different nations completely?!
Well the SDLP are kind of equivalent to SNP for Irish nationalism - maybe a bit less radical. Sinn Fein would be more extreme nationalist than the SNP in terms of rhetoric, which is one of the reasons why they are defined as Irish republican rather than just Irish nationalist. Yes I know all Irish nationalists are 'technically' republican if they want a united Ireland but they don't all get defined as such.
So Irish nationalism and Scottish nationalism, its Irish republicanism which is different.
Posted by: Steve201 2nd February 2020, 08:23 PM
I would disagree. I think the snp are similar to SF in terms of their social and economic views. The sdlp are quite to the right on both counts now.
Just look at FF & FG they are republicans too. Think the point is that Ireland has developed differently to Scotland.
Posted by: Crazy Chris 2nd February 2020, 11:35 PM
Boris Johnson set to launch £5m anti-independence ad blitz for Scotland. Funded by taxpayers of course.
Mr Johnson hopes the taxpayer-funded ad campaign, reportedly set to launch around Valentine's Day, will convince voters in Scotland that they are better off remaining as part of the UK.
Adverts talking up the common benefits of remaining in the Union are expected to run for around a year, appearing in cinemas, as well as on TV, radio and digital platforms.
The campaign is set to coincide with the publication of a review by Conservative peer Lord Dunlop into new ways to strengthen the Union, established by former Prime Minister Theresa May.
According to the Sunday Times, the report is expected to recommend better visibility of the government in devolved regions, including senior ministers holding meetings in areas outside London.
But it will stop short of recommending a new 'Department for the Union'.
Meanwhile, a government source told the paper of real fears inside Number 10 over the potential disruption of a second referendum, saying: "There is a consensus in Downing Street that this is the one issue - perhaps after Brexit - that could derail Johnson's premiership."
It comes amid a claim there is real "empathy" for Nicola Sturgeon's ambitions to obtain full EU membership for Scotland among European leaders.
In an interview set to shown on the Andrew Marr show, former European Council president Donald Tusk said membership for an independent Scotland would not be guaranteed, but added he felt "very Scottish, especially after Brexit".
All 27 remaining EU member states would be required to accept any prospective application from an independent Scotland, but Spain and Belgium could block the plans over concerns about independence movements in their own countries.
Pressed on the prospect of Scotland's future relationship with the bloc, the former senior EU leader said he wanted to "respect the internal debate in the United Kingdom".
Posted by: Crazy Chris 2nd February 2020, 11:40 PM
Criticism tonight from all opposition parties that Boris should be stopped from wasting public money like on this and the Brexit ads launched when he became pm. Who can realistically stop him though?
Love the bit about seeing more of ministers outside London. Boris's public appearances outside London during the election campaign, ie in Yorkshire, didn't go down too well. May have the opposite effect actually.
Could we see the full UK Cabinet actually meeting in Scotland? Well they went to Sunderland on Friday so nearly there!!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 2nd February 2020, 11:40 PM
I feel like with the Unison backing there is some momentum now building towards a referendum being held in perhaps 2022, certainly I expect the new Labour leader to endorse the people of Scotland the right to self determination, though obviously not to support independence. It will be interesting to see how this plays out but I expect any intervention by the Conservative party, Boris Johnson etc. will only push the dial further towards a yes vote - though I expect it is already inevitable.
So the argument that it is a waste of public money is pretty moot because I expect the SNP will welcome it!
Posted by: Forever European 3rd February 2020, 12:09 AM
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Feb 2 2020, 11:40 PM)
Criticism tonight from all opposition parties that Boris should be stopped from wasting public money like on this and the Brexit ads launched when he became pm. Who can realistically stop him though?
Love the bit about seeing more of ministers outside London. Boris's public appearances outside London during the election campaign, ie in Yorkshire, didn't go down too well. May have the opposite effect actually. Could we see the full UK Cabinet actually meeting in Scotland? Well they went to Sunderland on Friday so nearly there!!
Fuccking GROSS!! How DARE they flaunt their power in our faces up here?? Sunderland was hit so so hard by Thatcher. The north east communities had to support them so that they didn't starve to death!! They can f*** right off and get out the north east and leave Scotland well alone!
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd February 2020, 06:17 AM
Has anyone actually questioned why the UK should stay together? ISTM that if the Scots want to go, then we should let them. Let them stand on their own two feet if they can, but if not, don't expect the English to bail you out like we did after Darian.
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd February 2020, 06:55 AM
No doubt this will just be dismissed as 'Tory propaganda', but...
Nicola Sturgeon shamed as Dominic Raab exposes real reason for SNP independence obsession
Posted by: Silas EU Later 3rd February 2020, 07:10 AM
Dominic Raab was a prominent brexshiteer who didn’t know that we were an island and thus somewhat dependent on the smooth functioning of the Dover-Calais link. Second of all it’s the express. It’ll be “dismissed as Tory propaganda” because that’s what it is. The express is a work of fiction cover to cover
Posted by: vidcapper 3rd February 2020, 07:22 AM
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 3 2020, 07:10 AM)
Dominic Raab was a prominent brexshiteer who didn’t know that we were an island and thus somewhat dependent on the smooth functioning of the Dover-Calais link. Second of all it’s the express. It’ll be “dismissed as Tory propaganda” because that’s what it is. The express is a work of fiction cover to cover
On that basis, do you only trust the left-wing press to tell the truth then?
Posted by: Steve201 3rd February 2020, 08:08 AM
In this case most likely as the Express and Mail rarely talk about Scotland unless they need to attack something like independence so yes the propaganda attacks have started already.
Bit like the whole JC is a anti-Semite over the past 5 years. No doubt that won't be mentioned if Starmer becomes labour leader as we all know he will be in the pockets of the establishment.
Posted by: Silas EU Later 3rd February 2020, 08:12 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 3 2020, 08:22 AM)
On that basis, do you only trust the left-wing press to tell the truth then?
No I don’t trust any of the media to tell me things without bias, so I consume multiple viewpoints. What I don’t do is ever read the Express or the Mail. Both are hate filled works of fiction that aren’t good enough for use as loo roll
Posted by: Steve201 3rd February 2020, 09:39 PM
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 3 2020, 08:12 PM)
No I don’t trust any of the media to tell me things without bias, so I consume multiple viewpoints. What I don’t do is ever read the Express or the Mail. Both are hate filled works of fiction that aren’t good enough for use as loo roll
BRAVO!!
Posted by: Silas EU Later 3rd February 2020, 10:25 PM
Two Scottish Polls out today. First off was Survation showing a tiny yes lead of 50.2% vs 49.8%. Also showed 51% constituency vote for the SNP at Holyrood. Estimates put that on or around the magic number for a majority from the constituency seats alone (with 0 list seats).
Field work for that one is a bit older, 20-22 Jan.
Second poll out today is from PanelBase with field work of 28-31 Jan and shows a similarly happy tale. A majority for the SNP at Holyrood and a majority Yes vote.
When stacked up in order of field work the polls are:
Anecdotal I know but all the questions I’ve got from friends and co-workers here (who know I’m from Scotland) is about when will Scotland become independent and rejoin the EU. No “well maybe they can apply” no “maybe you can get Indy” no “are you sure you want Indy”. It’s seen as a completely logical and rational thing for Scotland to become independent and rejoin the EU. They all think England has gone insane.
Then there’s also this
Get it done legally and we will be welcomed back with open arms
Posted by: Steve201 3rd February 2020, 11:00 PM
*Waits for Chris or Vid to declare 51% isn't enough for such major constitutional change to the UK*
Posted by: Limp Brexit 3rd February 2020, 11:27 PM
!!!
I believe brexshit has established that 51%is enough. I'm moving to Scotland!
Posted by: Wall 4th February 2020, 12:49 AM
Lmao, I just wish 55+ couldn’t vote.
Sounds savage but the elderly costed us independence and it wouldn’t really be affecting them, it’s the younger generation who’s getting f***ed over by the elderly votes due to media scare mongering.
Posted by: Wall 4th February 2020, 12:50 AM
Also I’m sure EU will be most happy to have us back and will take great delight in doing so especially as a fu to England.
Posted by: Calum 4th February 2020, 12:56 AM
A cap on the voting age for a second referendum would be most welcome. How many people in the 60+ demographic that voted in 2014 are actually still around? I'd be interested to hear those stats.
Posted by: vidcapper 4th February 2020, 06:17 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 3 2020, 08:08 AM)
Bit like the whole JC is a anti-Semite over the past 5 years. No doubt that won't be mentioned if Starmer becomes labour leader as we all know he will be in the pockets of the establishment.
I don't think it was that JC was seen as anti-Semitic, rather that he wasn't seen to deal with the issue.
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 3 2020, 08:12 PM)
No I don’t trust any of the media to tell me things without bias, so I consume multiple viewpoints. What I don’t do is ever read the Express or the Mail. Both are hate filled works of fiction that aren’t good enough for use as loo roll
I only ever read them online, so that would be rather expensive in computers.
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 3 2020, 11:00 PM)
*Waits for Chris or Vid to declare 51% isn't enough for such major constitutional change to the UK*
Don't hold your breath, then.
QUOTE(Limp Brexit @ Feb 3 2020, 11:27 PM)
!!!
I believe brexshit has established that 51%is enough. I'm moving to Scotland!
Another change in nickname, Michael?
QUOTE(Calum @ Feb 4 2020, 12:56 AM)
A cap on the voting age for a second referendum would be most welcome. How many people in the 60+ demographic that voted in 2014 are actually still around? I'd be interested to hear those stats.
I'd guess well over 90%, perhaps more like 95%.
But surely the arguments for Independence should be strong enough that you shouldn't have to rely on older people dying to achieve it?
Posted by: Steve201 4th February 2020, 10:55 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 4 2020, 06:17 AM)
I don't think it was that JC was seen as anti-Semitic, rather that he wasn't seen to deal with the issue. I only ever read them online, so that would be rather expensive in computers. Don't hold your breath, then. Another change in nickname, Michael? I'd guess well over 90%, perhaps more like 95%.
But surely the arguments for Independence should be strong enough that you shouldn't have to rely on older people dying to achieve it?
It's one and the same thing for most and the people accusing him of this know that.
Posted by: vidcapper 5th February 2020, 07:13 AM
So the SNP want Scotland want to be independent - fair enough.
So why can't Remainers understand Leavers desire to be free of the EU - it's just another form of independence...
Posted by: Crazy Chris 5th February 2020, 07:54 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 5 2020, 07:13 AM)
So the SNP want Scotland want to be independent - fair enough.
So why can't Remainers understand Leavers desire to be free of the EU - it's just another form of independence...
Excellent point. Hadn't thought of it that way.
Posted by: Silas EU Later 5th February 2020, 09:00 AM
Because that’s like comparing apples and meteorites.
You’ve also been told repeatedly how it’s different so youse can both lay off with your trolling. Ya boring.
Posted by: vidcapper 5th February 2020, 09:11 AM
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 5 2020, 09:00 AM)
Because that’s like comparing apples and meteorites.
You’ve also been told repeatedly how it’s different so youse can both lay off with your trolling. Ya boring.
Asking questions you genuinely want the answer to, is not trolling!
Posted by: Silas EU Later 5th February 2020, 09:14 AM
It is when they’ve already been asked and answered
Posted by: Silas EU Later 5th February 2020, 09:51 AM
The man responsible for orchestrating the infamous “Vow” at the Daily Record that was vitally important to the No campaign in the final days of the 2014 referendum is now the Malcom Tucker of the SNP.
Quite a fundamental 180 there
Posted by: vidcapper 5th February 2020, 10:11 AM
QUOTE(Silas EU Later @ Feb 5 2020, 09:14 AM)
It is when they’ve already been asked and answered
If that's your criterion, does that mean you will stop asking me to justify my Brexit vote?
I know you don't consider my answer valid, but that doesn't mean I *haven't* answered. This is not a digression, but an analogy.
Regards
Posted by: EU Boy Weeyals 5th February 2020, 06:06 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 5 2020, 10:11 AM)
If that's your criterion, does that mean you will stop asking me to justify my Brexit vote?
I know you don't consider my answer valid, but that doesn't mean I *haven't* answered. This is not a digression, but an analogy.
Regards
He said answered, not dodged.
Posted by: Steve201 5th February 2020, 11:05 PM
Great response from The SNP leader at PMQs today - Johnson tried to say the SNP were an inward party called the Scottish Nationalist Party when talking about the Brexit issue. The response was obvious we are not the Scottish NATIONALIST Party we are the Scottish NATIONAL party!! Brillant!!
Posted by: vidcapper 6th February 2020, 05:45 AM
QUOTE(EU Boy Weeyals @ Feb 5 2020, 06:06 PM)
He said answered, not dodged.
A predictable response.
Posted by: vidcapper 6th February 2020, 05:48 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 5 2020, 11:05 PM)
Great response from The SNP leader at PMQs today - Johnson tried to say the SNP were an inward party called the Scottish Nationalist Party when talking about the Brexit issue. The response was obvious we are not the Scottish NATIONALIST Party we are the Scottish NATIONAL party!! Brillant!!
Just semantics - they *act* nationalist though.
Posted by: *CENSORED* 6th February 2020, 09:53 AM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 6 2020, 08:45 AM)
A predictable response.
The irony.
Posted by: Steve201 6th February 2020, 02:41 PM
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 6 2020, 05:48 AM)
Just semantics - they *act* nationalist though.
But it's not semantics it's fact.
They represent the people of Scotland as opposed to the conservatives!!
Posted by: vidcapper 10th February 2020, 09:54 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 6 2020, 02:41 PM)
But it's not semantics it's fact.
They represent the people of Scotland as opposed to the conservatives!!
The Express has suggested that the SNP agreed to a Dec election due to fears that the forthcoming trial of Alex Salmond would reflect badly on the party.
Posted by: Silas EU Later 10th February 2020, 12:13 PM
The express has suggested it has no basis in fact for everything that appears in its paper below the date
Posted by: Wall🐠 10th April 2020, 03:23 PM
Should Scotland be allowed another referendum topic here in the Scotland forum
That’s got to be a record for Indy right? There was a 59% poll straight after the EU Ref but that had dodgy methodology iirc.
BRING IT ON
Posted by: Steve201 21st June 2020, 08:46 AM
The SNP HAS to get a poll before 2025 imo to make this happen, the tories of course will fight tooth and nail to stop it. After 2025 and it may be too late.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 21st June 2020, 08:50 AM
I made a prediction at the start of 2020 that by the end of this decade Scotland would be independent - I stand by that statement.
Posted by: Andrew. 21st June 2020, 09:02 AM
The only problem is, the Tories are adamant they won’t budge. The new Scottish secretary is particularly vile as well. Even if the SNP win a majority of the votes next year I just can’t see them giving us a referendum. It’s just so undemocratic and disgusting
As a passionate independence supporter, there is a part of me that worries if the Scottish people keep giving a second referendum mandate after mandate, and keep giving SNP manifestos which have a second referendum majorities of seats and possibly votes and the Tories are serious about not having a referendum for decades (the Scottish secretary said there wouldn’t be a referendum in Nicola Sturgeon’s lifetime) that there might end up being some sort of civil conflict. I’m talking decades down the line btw, and I’m not saying the UK government will go down the line of the Spain and beat up old grannies trying to vote but if democracy keeps being denied who knows what will happen.
Posted by: Quarantilas 21st June 2020, 09:18 AM
QUOTE(Andrew. @ Jun 21 2020, 10:39 AM)
That’s got to be a record for Indy right? There was a 59% poll straight after the EU Ref but that had dodgy methodology iirc.
BRING IT ON
It’s the highest % for Yes when don’t knows are included. Ever.
We’ve never hit the halfway mark with don’t knows before.
It feels like a tide is turning. Independence will come, especially when Dom realises it will be easier for them to gerrymander a win in 2024 without the Scottish seats. I was on FaceTime with my folks when they read the news and there was barely even a grumble from them
Posted by: Brett-Butler 21st June 2020, 09:25 AM
On a somewhat side note, it's interesting to note the differences between any call for a Referendum between Northern Ireland (for Irish reunification) and Scottish independence. For NI, there is specific legislation regarding any independence polls, which are to be held when the Secretary of State believes there is a majority in favour of it (noting that if such a referendum was to fail, it could not be held for another seven years), whilst I am not aware of any specific legislation regarding this for Scotland. I'd note however if it followed the NI model, then it wouldn't be able to be held until 19th September 2021 at the very earliest.
I do think that there will be an indyref before the end of the decade, and I think that if it isn't given to Scotland by decree of consent within the next few years then I can see major civil unrest within Scotland until Westminister acquiesces to one.
Posted by: Quarantilas 21st June 2020, 09:46 AM
Realistically mid-2022 is the earliest date we can get one. Corona writes off 2020 and then we have Holyrood elections early 2021 that will take precedence with the SNP probably going on an explicit mandate like “Vote SNP for Indyref2 so we can rebuild a better, fairer Scotland in the EU”. From then with legislative processes earliest we got is a good 12-15 months later.
I think depending on what London does, if there needs to be a court process we might be looking at 2024 instead
Posted by: Steve201 21st June 2020, 02:36 PM
Tories will only grant referendums they think they will win.
It was a major Own goal for SF to agree to let the British SOS decide on an order poll in Ireland.
Posted by: Envoirment 21st June 2020, 02:56 PM
I doubt there will be a poll under the current government. Especially given the current situation with Covid-19 and the potential economic fallout from it later this year (when the furlough scheme ends). I'm also interested to see how the campaign goes and the economic plan for an independent Scotland. The economic agrument revolving around oil is no longer valid given the big price drops and the liklihood of supressed oil prices long-term due to the increased investment in and competitiveness of green technologies.
Posted by: Quarantilas 21st June 2020, 05:18 PM
One thing the English always forget is that we don’t need oil. The reason that unionist press focus on it is to distract from the realities that Scotland has an abundance of other natural resources, namely green electric and water. Scotland produces more electricity than it consumes, England doesn’t produce enough. Scotland has the vast majority of the UKs fresh water supply.
England kinda sorta can’t function as a basic society without our water and our excess electric. Water is a public utility and revenue from supplying England doesn’t sit in the GERS figures. (Which do include shit like HS2, Crossrail and Trident. None of which Scotland wants, needs or derives benefit from but still pay for)
Posted by: Doctor Blind 5th July 2020, 02:42 PM
Support for Scottish Independence and the SNP grows to record highs:
Posted by: Andrew. 5th July 2020, 03:50 PM
Great news, but I don't just want independence to do well in the polls, I want to be able to see it happening and with the Tories and Labour (:')) firmly opposed to a referendum in all circumstances, even if the SNP win a majority of votes next year, how will it happen? It's no in Boris' interests to grant a Section 30 order, he's very much a yoon of the highest order and it wouldn't go down well with his party at all if he changed his mind. The SNP still haven't told us their 'Plan B' for a referendum if the Tories don't give us one.
Posted by: Suedehead2 5th July 2020, 04:12 PM
One option would be for the SNP to say that they would interpret a vote share above 50% in the Holyrood election as a mandate to go ahead and declare independence without a referendum. I don't think the devolution settlement made independence conditional on a referendum so it could end up in lengthy legal dispute.
Posted by: Rooney 5th July 2020, 08:29 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jul 5 2020, 05:12 PM)
One option would be for the SNP to say that they would interpret a vote share above 50% in the Holyrood election as a mandate to go ahead and declare independence without a referendum. I don't think the devolution settlement made independence conditional on a referendum so it could end up in lengthy legal dispute.
I don't think that's the right way to go and certainly if they did that, I don't think they will get another independence referendum. My thoughts are I think Scotland will get another independence referendum, but it is going to be 2023 or even 2024. I think you just have to be slightly realistic. At the end of the day it is in Wales/Norther Ireland and England's favour that the United Kingdom stays together, so of course they are not going to bend over backwards and grant an independence referendum when A) one was as recent as 5 years ago and B) it is likely they will lose. They will only grant one when they think they have a shot at winning or there is a lot of political pressure.
Personally I would love Scotland to stay part of the United Kingdom and I am sceptical about a lot of the SNP's forecasting but I also feel that the goalposts have changed since we left the EU so I am not against the idea and if they voted for independence I'd also wish them the best of luck and hope that a great relationship could be forged. But my fear is if we have the Tories in charge it would be a very bad break-up.
Posted by: Quarantilas 5th July 2020, 09:57 PM
Wow, a known tory that’s skeptical of centre-left party. We’re breaking new ground here.
UDI is not the way to go, it opens the door for Spain to veto EU membership (although as long as we remain on good terms with Norway and Iceland we could go EEA quite happily - I believe this is the interim step to take so we join EEA on Independence Day and get benefits while we negotiate our seat at the decision making table).
Has to be in a legally recognised format. It remains to be seen if Holyrood has the power to hold it legally without a section 30, but a court case under Scots Law is the plan B. Effectively we are trying to cancel an act of the Scottish Parliament, the current parliament is a continuation of the original parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland so is it right under Scots Constitutional law that we cannot annul one of our own laws. Would be an interesting case for sure regardless of what angle the took.
Ultimately, the Celtics all know that the unions days are numbered. 7 years between referendums is written into the GFA, given 2021 is an election year it’d be 2022 at earliest which puts us to 7,5-8 years so given thats a bigger gap than in GFA for a border poll it can be argued sufficient time has passed for a new poll.
My view remains that democracy has to prevail, and this would be a decisive vote for a pro-indie parliament. The mandate is already quadruple locked in, this would make the noise overwhelming. You can’t deny people the right to self-determination, it’s international law. The longer the denials the louder the noise. And am fed up of English folks talking about “allowing” us to have a ref. f*** off. We entered this union by voluntary consent, we can leave the same way. We alone have a right to determine how we are governed and we alone will decide when to hold a referendum on our future governance.
It’s ironic how much the English chat shite about our economics adding up or how England subsidises Scotland. Like if we are that much of a burden surely you want rid so you’ve more cash? Oh yeah. They’re telling y’all lies to hold the union together. England needs Scotland more than vice versa. Make all the threats you want but you quite literally cannot survive without Scotland. You need our excess electricity production and our fresh water. And that’s before we consider that GERS includes Scotland paying for HS2 and Crossrail and other massive projects with no Barnnet consequentials that we get zero benefits from. England has used the “economics don’t add up” argument for every former colony trying to break free. There are a lot of European countries that are a similar size to Scotland and are thriving on their own. Might there be some taxation vs public service decisions to be made? Sure but that’s what elections are for, and Scotland can vote to go in whatever direction it so chooses as an independent country.
Posted by: Andrew. 5th July 2020, 10:09 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Jul 5 2020, 10:57 PM)
] My view remains that democracy has to prevail, and this would be a decisive vote for a pro-indie parliament. The mandate is already quadruple locked in, this would make the noise overwhelming. You can’t deny people the right to self-determination, it’s international law. The longer the denials the louder the noise. And am fed up of English folks talking about “allowing” us to have a ref. f*** off. We entered this union by voluntary consent, we can leave the same way. We alone have a right to determine how we are governed and we alone will decide when to hold a referendum on our future governance.
I get that, but Westminster, whether it's the Tories or the opposition doesn't see it that way. We've had mandate after mandate since 2014 and that's been worth nothing to them.
Posted by: Rooney 5th July 2020, 11:42 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Jul 5 2020, 10:57 PM)
Wow, a known tory that’s skeptical of centre-left party. We’re breaking new ground here. UDI is not the way to go, it opens the door for Spain to veto EU membership (although as long as we remain on good terms with Norway and Iceland we could go EEA quite happily - I believe this is the interim step to take so we join EEA on Independence Day and get benefits while we negotiate our seat at the decision making table).
Has to be in a legally recognised format. It remains to be seen if Holyrood has the power to hold it legally without a section 30, but a court case under Scots Law is the plan B. Effectively we are trying to cancel an act of the Scottish Parliament, the current parliament is a continuation of the original parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland so is it right under Scots Constitutional law that we cannot annul one of our own laws. Would be an interesting case for sure regardless of what angle the took.
Ultimately, the Celtics all know that the unions days are numbered. 7 years between referendums is written into the GFA, given 2021 is an election year it’d be 2022 at earliest which puts us to 7,5-8 years so given thats a bigger gap than in GFA for a border poll it can be argued sufficient time has passed for a new poll. My view remains that democracy has to prevail, and this would be a decisive vote for a pro-indie parliament. The mandate is already quadruple locked in, this would make the noise overwhelming. You can’t deny people the right to self-determination, it’s international law. The longer the denials the louder the noise. And am fed up of English folks talking about “allowing” us to have a ref. f*** off. We entered this union by voluntary consent, we can leave the same way. We alone have a right to determine how we are governed and we alone will decide when to hold a referendum on our future governance.
It’s ironic how much the English chat shite about our economics adding up or how England subsidises Scotland. Like if we are that much of a burden surely you want rid so you’ve more cash? Oh yeah. They’re telling y’all lies to hold the union together. England needs Scotland more than vice versa. Make all the threats you want but you quite literally cannot survive without Scotland. You need our excess electricity production and our fresh water. And that’s before we consider that GERS includes Scotland paying for HS2 and Crossrail and other massive projects with no Barnnet consequentials that we get zero benefits from. England has used the “economics don’t add up” argument for every former colony trying to break free. There are a lot of European countries that are a similar size to Scotland and are thriving on their own. Might there be some taxation vs public service decisions to be made? Sure but that’s what elections are for, and Scotland can vote to go in whatever direction it so chooses as an independent country.
I am not a Tory. I have no political aligence to any party.
What you have to remember is it's this sort of brash attitude which puts people off independence from England. I have literally just said I support another referendum and I am sceptical of the economics. It doesn't mean I am right or that I am wrong, it means I am sceptical. There are plenty of people in Scotland who don't want to leave the United Kingdom as well don't forget. Perhaps after the next election that will change, but unless the SNP win a majority I think a referendum is unlikely. And guess what the likes of Crossrail and HS2 benefit pretty much nobody in Northern England at all, but guess what, we are paying for it as well.
I don't know much about the legal stuff, but I'm sure the original pitch for the referendum was pitched as a generational vote? Don't get me wrong I understand why a lot of people want another independence referendum, I completely get it. I certainly think there is a better opportunity to change the relationship and the reality is that we both need each other. My own personal view is the economic arguments are very opportunistic.
Posted by: Andrew. 6th July 2020, 02:19 AM
Also, while I’m glad the SNP are slaying the polls, I’m worried campaigners will get too complacent when it comes to next year. With Nic’s praised handling of COVID and Boris’ not so praised handling, of course this is going to be a great period for us. In August 2015 after we won 56 seats, nine months before the Holyrood election, a poll put the SNP on 62% and many others around that time were around 60%. In the end we got 47%. There’s plenty of time for things to change, and I’d be seriously impressed if we maintained 50% of the vote.
I say ‘we’ as I’m still a member of the SNP until at least February although I’m not nearly passionate and unequivocal as I used to be so 💁♀️
Posted by: Steve201 6th July 2020, 07:42 PM
Who said the majority of the North of Ireland wants to remain in the UK?? We have NEVER had the right to vote on that because the British SOS refuses to give us that mandate and so we have to cower like althe colony they force upon us with.....
Posted by: Doctor Blind 6th July 2020, 09:17 PM
The words of Professor John Curtis: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-curtice-voters-say-yes-to-snps-handling-of-covid-crisis-9r7bfw5xt
“Never before have the foundations of public support for the union looked so weak”
Ooft.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 7th July 2020, 07:57 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Jul 6 2020, 08:42 PM)
Who said the majority of the North of Ireland wants to remain in the UK?? We have NEVER had the right to vote on that because the British SOS refuses to give us that mandate and so we have to cower like althe colony they force upon us with.....
There was a vote on it once, in 1973 (admittedly long before either of us were born), with Remain winning 99% of the vote (due to a nationalist boycott).
Posted by: Steve201 7th July 2020, 09:38 PM
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Jul 7 2020, 08:57 PM)
There was a vote on it once, in 1973 (admittedly long before either of us were born), with Remain winning 99% of the vote (due to a nationalist boycott).
😂 I remember reading about this once when I was doing my master and laughed at the thought, sounds a bit like an NI general election between 1920-69!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 12th August 2020, 06:40 PM
The momentum is only going to go one way from now...
Bring it on!
Posted by: Steve201 12th August 2020, 07:20 PM
They'll never allow it if there's a chance of losing. Plus the English government dictates when one will happen.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 12th August 2020, 07:34 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Aug 12 2020, 08:20 PM)
They'll never allow it if there's a chance of losing. Plus the English government dictates when one will happen.
Which will in itself only further support for independence... I really do think it is inevitable before 2030. Frankly, I'm fed up with the UK and won't miss it being broken up. I agree though that a vote on a United Ireland is likely to take place first- but that looks like it'll go too.
Posted by: Quarantilas 12th August 2020, 07:38 PM
No such thing as an English government.
And yes this is really starting to gain sustainable momentum. Self-determination is a right enshrined in international law and something that the UK Gov screams about for Gibraltar and Falklands so has no legal moral or ethical grounds to prevent Scotland having the same right.
Posted by: Quarantilas 12th August 2020, 07:40 PM
My views on this subject are well documented.
Scotland has voted in its last Westminster election but it’s ok; we will swap that voting cycle for the European elections instead.
The end of the UK is the best thing for all of its constituent countries. NI is best served in a reunified Ireland. England is best served looking after its own interests as a third rate failed state. Wales can do as it pleases, but I believe it is better freed from England too.
Posted by: Rooney 12th August 2020, 08:01 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Aug 12 2020, 08:40 PM)
My views on this subject are well documented.
Scotland has voted in its last Westminster election but it’s ok; we will swap that voting cycle for the European elections instead. The end of the UK is the best thing for all of its constituent countries. NI is best served in a reunified Ireland. England is best served looking after its own interests as a third rate failed state. Wales can do as it pleases, but I believe it is better freed from England too.
I don't know how you can call England a third world failed state! For our size we do remarkably well still. Our problem we is rely too much on importation, but I suppose this is half the grand design plan of the fabled Brexiteers. If Wales is ever freed from England it would collapse, the economies are way too intertwined, it's very different to Northern Ireland & Scotland.
I can't see a way Scotland is independent before 2024. That's not to say it won't happen, I just can't see it happening in that short a time frame, especially with the Tories in charge. I agree with Doctor Blind a vote on a Reunified Ireland would likely take part first. I certainly think that is on the cards within the next 10 years.
Posted by: Suedehead2 12th August 2020, 08:13 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Aug 12 2020, 08:40 PM)
My views on this subject are well documented.
Scotland has voted in its last Westminster election but it’s ok; we will swap that voting cycle for the European elections instead. The end of the UK is the best thing for all of its constituent countries. NI is best served in a reunified Ireland. England is best served looking after its own interests as a third rate failed state. Wales can do as it pleases, but I believe it is better freed from England too.
There are plenty of English people who despise Johnson and co so please don't try and suggest we are all the same. After all, I wouldn't suggest that all Scots feed exclusively on deep-fried Mars bars and have a vocabulary that extends no further than "Och aye, the noo".
Posted by: Quarantilas 12th August 2020, 08:19 PM
I call England that because of the systemic corruption and cronyism in the government, along with the collapsing public services and beginnings of a culture war.
I don’t believe wales would collapse. I agree, the economy is far more intertwined with England than Scotland is thanks to geography but that’s not to say it wouldn’t be possible for it to fight its own path. The bigger problem as I see it is the valleys and the legacy of unemployment and decline. Wales would face an uphill battle because it needs more investment to bring it up to where it should be, what I would argue to be a key reason the union is failing Wales. Inward investment is up, and Wales drifting towards Ireland and Scotland and back to the EU would make the border a very popular place for English frontier workers to benefit from EU citizenship. The tax take would shore up Wales finances nicely.
We will have to see what 2021 has in store for us, but as of right now there isn’t the same desire or clamour in NI as there is in Scotland. End of the transition might change that dramatically. I could see a position where both NI and SCO vote on the same day to end the union. Granted technically only Scotland would be voting to end the union as the union is the act of union 1707 between Scotland and England but technicalities eh
Posted by: Quarantilas 12th August 2020, 08:20 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Aug 12 2020, 10:13 PM)
There are plenty of English people who despise Johnson and co so please don't try and suggest we are all the same. After all, I wouldn't suggest that all Scots feed exclusively on deep-fried Mars bars and have a vocabulary that extends no further than "Och aye, the noo".
Didn’t suggest any such a thing tyvm
Posted by: J00psyMethyd 12th August 2020, 08:32 PM
England does strike me as a sick country now.
#NotAllEnglish of course, but there are so many people there whose lives seem ruled by anger, aggression, abuse of the less fortunate, blindness as to their place in the world and the real state of the world, and everyone's old friend, denial.
Yes, other countries have such people too - but not nearly half the population, and nearly half the population still swearing blind in the face of all reasonable evidence facts contrary to the evidence of their own eyes and ears nearly four years later.
Posted by: Harve 12th August 2020, 08:37 PM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Aug 12 2020, 08:40 PM)
The momentum is only going to go one way from now...
Bring it on!
79% Yes support amongst under 25s in that poll.
Lmao.
Posted by: Rooney 12th August 2020, 08:48 PM
QUOTE(J00psyMethyd @ Aug 12 2020, 09:32 PM)
England does strike me as a sick country now.
#NotAllEnglish of course, but there are so many people there whose lives seem ruled by anger, aggression, abuse of the less fortunate, blindness as to their place in the world and the real state of the world, and everyone's old friend, denial.
Yes, other countries have such people too - but not nearly half the population, and nearly half the population still swearing blind in the face of all reasonable evidence facts contrary to the evidence of their own eyes and ears nearly four years later.
I don't believe this to be true at all. You will find similar traits in a lot of other countries and in the main, it is a very, very small minority. A large part of the problem in England is the fascination with World War 2. Many of the baby boomers actually think they fought in the war. As a country unfortunately, especially in my entire lifetime a lot of our opinions on the world were given to us through Rupert Murdoch and only a few forms of media.
Posted by: Steve201 12th August 2020, 10:54 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Aug 12 2020, 08:38 PM)
No such thing as an English government. And yes this is really starting to gain sustainable momentum. Self-determination is a right enshrined in international law and something that the UK Gov screams about for Gibraltar and Falklands so has no legal moral or ethical grounds to prevent Scotland having the same right.
I used the word 'English government' on purpose to highlight what it stands for and is dominated by.
Posted by: Steve201 12th August 2020, 11:01 PM
People saying NI will be reunited with the rest of the island - I mean Im all for that as a republican but if there was any move for a border poll Im not sure what political forces that would unleash. There would be renewed paramilitary activity and potential civil war so Im not sure it will happen. There will be a natural reunification of the island at a undesignated date in the future when all people who remember the troubles fade from the scene and the north remains in the EU as is planned.
Heck I can see there being pickets by loyalists due to border in the irish sea next year.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 12th August 2020, 11:24 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Aug 13 2020, 12:01 AM)
People saying NI will be reunited with the rest of the island - I mean Im all for that as a republican but if there was any move for a border poll Im not sure what political forces that would unleash. There would be renewed paramilitary activity and potential civil war so Im not sure it will happen. There will be a natural reunification of the island at a undesignated date in the future when all people who remember the troubles fade from the scene and the north remains in the EU as is planned.
Heck I can see there being pickets by loyalists due to border in the irish sea next year.
Boris' ‘Oven Ready’ deal that he signed off on after his MASSIVE mandate from the British gammons has effectively made Northern Ireland separate to the rest of the UK, so yes, I can see that happening in the 2020s.
Posted by: J00psyMethyd 12th August 2020, 11:27 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 12 2020, 09:48 PM)
I don't believe this to be true at all. You will find similar traits in a lot of other countries and in the main, it is a very, very small minority. A large part of the problem in England is the fascination with World War 2. Many of the baby boomers actually think they fought in the war. As a country unfortunately, especially in my entire lifetime a lot of our opinions on the world were given to us through Rupert Murdoch and only a few forms of media.
But Rooney, over half of the population voted for Brexit. The Tories won an 80 seat majority on an empty, three word slogan manifesto veiledly just being about crushing the libs. Near half of the population still, in the face of all evidence otherwise, insist that Brexit will only be a good thing, that there's no way it can't be, that those questioning that narrative are traitors and just want to drag Britain down because they don't believe in the British people enough.
Those people that believe those things exist and walk among us - and exist in large enough numbers to sway policy and election results.
Posted by: Andrew. 12th August 2020, 11:35 PM
To be fair, right wing parties with nationalist rhetoric are doing well almost everywhere right? It's not a uniquely British problem, not like me to defend England lol but it's a Europe-wide problem.
QUOTE(Harve @ Aug 12 2020, 09:37 PM)
79% Yes support amongst under 25s in that poll.
Lmao.
I'm not complaining but that seems weird to me, as the mood amongst my peers is about 2/3 anti-Indy (pro EU as well though). I do live in a Seat that voted 64% No though so shrug
Posted by: Rooney 12th August 2020, 11:46 PM
QUOTE(J00psyMethyd @ Aug 13 2020, 12:27 AM)
But Rooney, over half of the population voted for Brexit. The Tories won an 80 seat majority on an empty, three word slogan manifesto veiledly just being about crushing the libs. Near half of the population still, in the face of all evidence otherwise, insist that Brexit will only be a good thing, that there's no way it can't be, that those questioning that narrative are traitors and just want to drag Britain down because they don't believe in the British people enough.
Those people that believe those things exist and walk among us - and exist in large enough numbers to sway policy and election results.
That doesn’t make England full of angry people though because we had an 80 seat Conservative majority. If the left side of the spectrum had bothered to work together in any shape possible they could have easily eaten in to that 80 seat majority. Brexit is an enigma because people had no idea what they were voting for. We won’t get in to that debate as it’s been done to death but if the vote was re-done in 2019, Remain would have won quite comfortably.
If lots of other European countries had a referendum you would begin to see the same fractions. We have swarms of the country and especially the North which has been abused over the best part of 30 years from both the Conservative and Labour Governments in favour of London. It’s why these replaces will be even more hard-hit after Covid-19 and why Conservatives are making gains in Red Wall seats. So much has been taken away from the towns and nothing has been replaced.
Brexit makes me sad as it has entirely changed our political structure for a generation, but the truth is it has been bubbling up for some time and unfortunately like most things, if you have money you can influence people to suit your financial and political gain.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 12th August 2020, 11:49 PM
Scottish Parliament poll, via YouGov, 6-10 August (changes since 24-27 April):
[FPTP] SNP 57% (+3) CON 20% (-3) LAB 14% (+2) LD 6% (-2)
[PR] SNP 47% (+3) CON 21% (-) LAB 14% (+2) GRN 6% (-2) LD 6% (-1)
[Seat estimate] SNP 74 (+4) CON 29 (-1) LAB 18 (+5) LD 5 (-1) GRN 3 (-7)
Scottish voting intention for UK Parliament elections, via YouGov, 6-10 August (changes since 24-27 April):
Going off on a tangent here but did you see the Survation poll that had a lead for Labour of 4 pts for everyone under 65, but a 46 pts lead for the Tories in the >65 category?!!
Posted by: Andrew. 12th August 2020, 11:51 PM
The increased support for indy is lovely, but I can't help but worry it's all meaningless. Bojo has no reason to budge on Section 30, his 80 seat majority only includes 6 Scottish seats. I know he has no principles but i can't see him wanting there to even be the possibility of him being known as the PM who ended the union (ironically half of Tory voters would vote for England to be independent :'))
Posted by: Rooney 13th August 2020, 12:04 AM
QUOTE(Andrew. @ Aug 13 2020, 12:51 AM)
The increased support for indy is lovely, but I can't help but worry it's all meaningless. Bojo has no reason to budge on Section 30, his 80 seat majority only includes 6 Scottish seats. I know he has no principles but i can't see him wanting there to even be the possibility of him being known as the PM who ended the union (ironically half of Tory voters would vote for England to be independent :'))
It just won’t happen under this current Conservative government. There will certainly be another one but you’ve seen how stubborn this Government can be. They’re not going to give Scotland a referendum so soon after a previous one. Few reasons, a few which I agree with and a few which I find illogical. I know there are many Scottish nationals on here who want another vote, but you’ve also got to think if you did gain independence under this current Government it would be the most painful breakup you could imagine. They’d do all sorts, probably some cheap trick with the Sterling.
I think what’s more likely is Labour offering a referendum on their manifesto for 2024 as a way to try and eat in to the Scottish Parliament votes.
Posted by: Steve201 13th August 2020, 12:36 AM
The thing is that's one thing that winds me up most, it's only 6 years since the last vote but the change since then has been generational in such a way that another vote is definately legitimate.
Posted by: Quarantilas 13th August 2020, 06:57 AM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Aug 13 2020, 01:49 AM)
Scottish Parliament poll, via YouGov, 6-10 August (changes since 24-27 April):
[FPTP] SNP 57% (+3) CON 20% (-3) LAB 14% (+2) LD 6% (-2)
[PR] SNP 47% (+3) CON 21% (-) LAB 14% (+2) GRN 6% (-2) LD 6% (-1)
[Seat estimate] SNP 74 (+4) CON 29 (-1) LAB 18 (+5) LD 5 (-1) GRN 3 (-7) Scottish voting intention for UK Parliament elections, via YouGov, 6-10 August (changes since 24-27 April):
58 seats. Going off on a tangent here but did you see the Survation poll that had a lead for Labour of 4 pts for everyone under 65, but a 46 pts lead for the Tories in the >65 category?!!
That Ian f***ing Murray seat. The mans like Teflon. 6% on the uk wide poll and that seat still stays red
Posted by: Rooney 13th August 2020, 08:27 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Aug 13 2020, 01:36 AM)
The thing is that's one thing that winds me up most, it's only 6 years since the last vote but the change since then has been generational in such a way that another vote is definately legitimate.
While I do not disagree with this, the problem is it sets a precedent for any referendums in the future. While I was in huge favour a 2nd Referendum for a vote, I do think there needs to be some agreement for any referendum going forward that there is period of X years where it is agreed there cannot be another.
Posted by: Suedehead2 13th August 2020, 09:01 AM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 13 2020, 09:27 AM)
While I do not disagree with this, the problem is it sets a precedent for any referendums in the future. While I was in huge favour a 2nd Referendum for a vote, I do think there needs to be some agreement for any referendum going forward that there is period of X years where it is agreed there cannot be another.
There is one in the Anglo-Irish agreement governing any poll on a united Ireland. From memory, it is seven years so Scotland will have passed that in just over a year's time. The UK government's justification for blocking a second independence referendum gets weaker by the day.
Posted by: Quarantilas 13th August 2020, 10:09 AM
Yes it is 7 years in the Good Friday Agreement. I believe this is what was judged to be a “political generation”.
Posted by: Steve201 13th August 2020, 04:50 PM
7 years isn't just a random figure political changes can happen at any pace such as 2 years after the first referendum so on both counts another referendum should happen sooner rather than later.
Posted by: Harve 13th August 2020, 10:26 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Aug 13 2020, 08:57 AM)
That Ian f***ing Murray seat. The mans like Teflon. 6% on the uk wide poll and that seat still stays red
Fascinated that Scottish Labour's one heartland is now.... Morningside.
Posted by: Steve201 2nd September 2020, 07:25 PM
So the SNP announced the programme for the Scottish government yesterday and although there were many priorities I've the next few years including the covid response the British media decided to play the conservative and unionist game by highlighting one point in particular regarding putting forth a debate for a second independence referendum.
Posted by: Quarantilas 2nd September 2020, 07:46 PM
Are you surprised? Unionist media only cares about upholding the failing british state and an #SNPBad narrative.
I can't wait for the date to be set and for us to smash May 2021 on the explicit platform of IndyRef2 on XYZ date.
Posted by: Steve201 2nd September 2020, 09:36 PM
Fingers crossed, seen Lord Finkelstein on Politics Live today trying to create a debate to change the eligibility criteria for any vote the snake!
Posted by: Quarantilas 2nd September 2020, 09:51 PM
Yeah Gove started that off a couple of weeks ago. They seem to have moved on from trying to stop it to trying to tilt the stage in their favour. The franchise is devolved to Scotland so they can say what they want but it'll be set as the same franchise as the last one. Thats the fairest way forwards and open to no challenges of vote rigging (which is what the tories are currently attempting)
They're scared shitless of the polling showing that it will actually happen this time.
Posted by: Harve 2nd September 2020, 10:00 PM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 2 2020, 09:25 PM)
So the SNP announced the programme for the Scottish government yesterday and although there were many priorities I've the next few years including the covid response the British media decided to play the conservative and unionist game by highlighting one point in particular regarding putting forth a debate for a second independence referendum.
I don't think the Tories will do a 2016-17-style Ruth Davidson campaign screeching 'NO 2 INDY REF 2' because they realise that there IS a majority appetite for one this time, and that regardless of what the campaign is like, they're not gonna beat the SNP and are fighting for a good second place (although it could be very good for squeezing any remaining Lib Dem and Unionist Labour vote).
If they did do that, then it'll look worse when indy ref 2 gets denied in 2021 because they will have explicitly lost on that question in the election. If they just choose not to acknowledge the SNP's independence commitments and do a 'but our public services' campaign, then it won't look so hypocritical when Boris Johnson denies the ref anyway despite losing/will help them skirt around the fact that Holyrood elections and the Scottish government have no say on constitutional issues, which of course is a reality that is a case against the union.
When polling was more ambiguous, there was a time when unionists actively promoted the union to shore up those still in favour of it, but now they just....pretend the thorny issue of majority independence sentiment just isn't there.
Posted by: Quarantilas 11th September 2020, 01:55 PM
These demographics 😱
That’s more polarised than Brexit. The union, like its supporters, both literally on life support
Posted by: Steve201 11th September 2020, 08:40 PM
It’s the 45-64 yo you have to convince
Posted by: Doctor Blind 19th September 2020, 10:43 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 11 2020, 09:40 PM)
It’s the 45-64 yo you have to convince
The polarisation between young/old is similar to the voting intention for parties - I can't help but think this will only continue as we head through the 2020s which does lead me to think that Scottish independence is inevitable (one way or the other) before 2030.
Posted by: Quarantilas 19th September 2020, 11:17 AM
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Sep 11 2020, 10:40 PM)
It’s the 45-64 yo you have to convince
Every age group is trending towards yes. The Scottish electorate is now a ticking time bomb. It’s going off sooner rather than later and Scotland will rise again as an independent nation
Posted by: Suedehead2 19th September 2020, 11:51 AM
The government are conveniently offering the SNP a way of ignoring any requirement to get permission from Westminster to hold a referendum by a clause in the latest EU Withdrawal legislation.
Posted by: Quarantilas 19th September 2020, 02:09 PM
Theyre trying to force judicial changes on Scotland as well against the treaty and act of union. They’re opening up a few different avenues for us to consider.
As I said to Michael the other day, I’ve still one eye on Spain and what they would consider heavily objectionable. Anything that happens must be watertight from a legal perspective or our primary short term goal, EU membership, won’t happen at anywhere near the speed it needs to
Posted by: Doctor Blind 16th October 2020, 07:37 AM
We've already discussed this in the opinion polling thread, but here is a short piece from Novara Media on the growing support for Scottish Independence.
Those splits in the Ipsos MORI poll voting yes for independence:
More tensions now with school meals, I really hope a referendum is incoming soon because Nicola is finally losing her shit
Posted by: Steve201 17th November 2020, 01:13 PM
Excellent work by Boris Johnson today following him saying that one of Tony Blair’s worst decisions was to introduce devolution to Scotland unveiling his (and most Tories) anti-devolutionist ideology.
Bring on the elections next year 😀
Posted by: Steve201 19th November 2020, 11:04 PM
Oh god keep talking Ian Murray and digging that hole for yourself walking into the trap Kristinan set on Ch4 news tonight by arguing against a second Scottish referendum while straight faced saying that he was righ to campaign for a second Eu ref in 2017 😂
Posted by: common sense 28th January 2021, 06:10 PM
Boris has said today that there will be no new independence referendum as they've had one and voted to remain in the UK.
Posted by: T Boy 28th January 2021, 06:11 PM
QUOTE(common sense @ Jan 28 2021, 06:10 PM)
Boris has said today that there will be no new independence referendum as they've had one and voted to remain in the UK.
Boris is just ignoring what the people want on his non essential virus spreading trip to a place where no one wants him.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 28th January 2021, 06:28 PM
I fully believe there will be another referendum within the next three years but I hope Boris remains in charge and makes a deal that if we vote no we can't vote again to anger more scots so we vote for yes!
scotland also announcing no increases in tax and are reducing student loan payments *.*
Posted by: steve201 28th January 2021, 06:32 PM
Johnson knows he has to hold it off as long as possible to have a chance.
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th January 2021, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(common sense @ Jan 28 2021, 07:10 PM)
Boris has said today that there will be no new independence referendum as they've had one and voted to remain in the UK.
Literally no one cares
Posted by: common sense 28th January 2021, 07:02 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Jan 28 2021, 06:58 PM)
Literally no one cares
I'm sure Nicola does.
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th January 2021, 07:06 PM
She doesn’t. She’s said many times on record she doesn’t care what Boris has to say on it because as Boris‘s wee pal Trump found out, you can only rail against the forces of democracy for so long before it runs you over
Posted by: Doctor Blind 28th January 2021, 11:09 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Jan 28 2021, 06:32 PM)
Johnson knows he has to hold it off as long as possible to have a chance.
That's what I never understood with Cameron opting to go for the EU referendum in June 2016.. he had until the end of 2017 in theory...
Anyway off-topic. Every time Boris Johnson goes to Scotland he drives support for independence up even futher, looking forward to seeing the polls next week.
Posted by: steve201 28th January 2021, 11:58 PM
The polls seem very polarised there’s many who are arch Indy 2 supporters but others not all traditional unionists who are very pro union now due to the question being the centre of everything in Scottish politics - a bit like NI. It might be hard to come back from that. I mean all local news in NI is dominated by the constitutional future of the state and its hyped up by the media including the bbc
Posted by: steve201 24th February 2021, 10:24 PM
Looks like the mainstream media are going to try their best to bring down Sturgeon over the next 12 months!
Posted by: Dill Doe 24th February 2021, 10:58 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Feb 24 2021, 10:24 PM)
Looks like the mainstream media are going to try their best to bring down Sturgeon over the next 12 months!
We live in a one party state where the media is just state propaganda. This is no surprise.
Posted by: Smint 24th February 2021, 11:05 PM
Agreed. Scotland needs to press on with independence to get away from the Tories and the foul corrupting media.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 24th February 2021, 11:59 PM
The media are absolutely shocking.
How Hancock had no mention of his court in any of the papers imagine if that was Nicola
Posted by: steve201 25th February 2021, 09:16 AM
Yeh the Spectator is really pushing the story which is no surprise given their unionist and establishmentarian views. They even tried to suggest on Politics Live yesterday that Scotland was a one party state yday and were being serious. Obviously the fact that the SNP have been democratically elected since 2007 didn’t come into the conversation
Posted by: Quarantilas 25th February 2021, 09:21 AM
Theres two parts to this as I see it. The first is that Salmonds ego has been damaged and he wants to take down Sturgeon in revenge. That she is both more popular than him and closer than he ever came to winning Indy also bruised his ego as he wants to be the one to take it over the line. His petty small mindedness is being used as a tool by the second part of this story. A desperate unionist media and hostile political establishment in Westminster that is hell bent on the destruction of the SNP and Holyrood as it stands in their way of a single party state where they can continue to exploit Scotland’s natural resources for their own gain and do away with anything that threatens their ideology.
Salmond and his supporters are being played like f***ing fiddles. They’re hopelessly out of their depth and their now doing serious harm to our cause. We are closer than ever to freedom and we cannot like this small man and his f***ing fragile ego destroy our progress and our future.
Posted by: Jacob 😮 25th February 2021, 04:07 PM
Yes (I understand why Scotland would want it) but if Scotland gets a 2nd indyref on grounds of the EU ref there should also be a 2nd EU ref. We get general elections every 5 years.
If Scotland does leave I'd start seriously considering emigrating because it would mean being stuck in permanent Tory hell.
Posted by: Smint 25th February 2021, 11:59 PM
Well Tony Blair won elections for Labour with such huge majorities he didn’t need the Scottish seats. And we’ve been living under Tory hell since 2010 with Scotland part of the union. My hope that if Scotland go for independence it will shake up the political system in rest of U.K. Can’t be any worse than now can it?
Posted by: Doctor Blind 26th February 2021, 12:35 AM
I think Scotland leaving the UK is inevitable by the end of the decade - Boris Johnson is the biggest gift ever to the nationalists, since he has taken over as PM support for independence has shown steady growth in the polls. His refusal to allow a referendum will only lead that to grow further, and furthermore the support is pretty solid across the age groups with a lead for independence in EVERY group under 65.
The union is finished.
Posted by: Jacob 😮 26th February 2021, 01:32 AM
QUOTE(Smint @ Feb 25 2021, 11:59 PM)
Well Tony Blair won elections for Labour with such huge majorities he didn’t need the Scottish seats. And we’ve been living under Tory hell since 2010 with Scotland part of the union. My hope that if Scotland go for independence it will shake up the political system in rest of U.K. Can’t be any worse than now can it?
True but
- Blair had to go neolib centre to do that- don't get me wrong, better but not ideal - Scotland is guaranteed to go mostly not Tory so they're always a safe bet in a potential coalition if nothing else. If it came to it I bet the SNP would form a coalition with Labour (or even Lib Dems, Green etc in addition if significant enough and they needed the extra seats). With Tories even winning Labour heartlands last election, with Scotland gone I just can't see it ever changing until the boomers are gone to put it bluntly. Not to mention if Scotland goes, Northern Ireland could follow. - I'm not so hopeful, I was too hopeful for the 2019 election and people were still up for more austerity, slow privatisation of the NHS and a vague (read: failed) plan for Brexit, setting our economy up for ruin. Even with the horrific handling of COVID, the rushing through parliament of the Brexit bill and the dire consequences (which will be covered up by COVID) I have no confidence whatsoever that we're going to see any change for the next 10-15 years, and Scotland leaving will only exacerbate the issue for the rest of the union and likely extend that period. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it. Labour is weak and won't even attack the government for the stupid shit they do. At least the SNP condemn the government when appropriate.
I just hope you're right about it shaking up politics across the rest of the union if it does happen but I expect Tory voters either won't care or will just be glad to see Nicola Sturgeon on their screens a little less. Like I can see why Scotland wants to be separate because they're so different politically these days- no prescription costs for NHS, no Tuition fees within Scotland etc.
Mind you Scotland is only good for the rest of the union politically as far as forming a government goes. Even if Scottish Labour recovered now (which they won't) when they did have power they still gifted the rest of the union (not including Scotland of course) with things like http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3432767.stm back in the day, in full knowledge that it wouldn't affect Scotland. The SNP are nationalists (obviously) so the devolved government and people who voted for them have an obvious separate identity and only care for their own interests, and I don't blame them given the state of Westminster.
Posted by: Smint 26th February 2021, 11:36 AM
Oh I quite agree that things are bad in England/Wales with previously called Labour heartlands switching blue primarily due to reasons of national and cultural identity and that deserves a whole new topic. But there is no reason that Scotland should stay to prop the rest of the country up - they need to do what is best for them as the Tory government in Westminster have made it clear that they are not regarded as a nation on equal footing with the other nations but more as a subservient region (ignoring the mandate for remaining in the EU and pursuing a virtual no deal Brexit is the clearest indication of that).
I do think that losing Scotland would be a huge blow and embarrassment for the Tories (let's not forget that the Tories have now set up a Union unit to try and save the union) and for the country's reputation. The rest of the UK estranged from the EU will be more and more isolated. Plus hopefully the rest of the UK will have to ask themselves why Scotland will want to leave us and may stir us out of the inertia. Although of course no guarantees of that.
Posted by: Rooney 26th February 2021, 06:42 PM
QUOTE(Smint @ Feb 26 2021, 11:36 AM)
Oh I quite agree that things are bad in England/Wales with previously called Labour heartlands switching blue primarily due to reasons of national and cultural identity and that deserves a whole new topic. But there is no reason that Scotland should stay to prop the rest of the country up - they need to do what is best for them as the Tory government in Westminster have made it clear that they are not regarded as a nation on equal footing with the other nations but more as a subservient region (ignoring the mandate for remaining in the EU and pursuing a virtual no deal Brexit is the clearest indication of that).
I do think that losing Scotland would be a huge blow and embarrassment for the Tories (let's not forget that the Tories have now set up a Union unit to try and save the union) and for the country's reputation. The rest of the UK estranged from the EU will be more and more isolated. Plus hopefully the rest of the UK will have to ask themselves why Scotland will want to leave us and may stir us out of the inertia. Although of course no guarantees of that.
Scotland shouldn't stay in the Union just so England can get a Labour Government. Labour have a lot of problems and lost the Centre ground to the Tories and more importantly, their heartlad identity to the Tories. I don't want to derail this thread as the direction of Labour always tends to go there, and usually revoles around Labour are not right-wing enough OR they are not left-wing enough They have to do something different than they did previously and not push the Centre to vote Tory. I really do feel there is the opportunity to do this whilst remaining some really key social policies. As much as people don't want to hear it, it is always the Labour-Tory floater voters that get a party over the line normally.
I think it is inevitable that the Union will finish within the next 10 years. But I also think the Tories are going to make it as difficult as possible to happen and when it likely does happen it will not be pretty in the short-medium term but longer term it would work for sure. I can't claim to know enough about the Salmon-Sturgeon events currently playing out in the media. I can't really see the logic from him in playing out a public battle with Sturgeon. Not really sure what his end-game is as I am sure he wants Scottish independence.
Posted by: Quarantilas 26th February 2021, 07:46 PM
This is his endgame
He cannot stand that HE won’t be the one to win Indy and so instead he is trying his level best to bring down the one person who is standing in his way of HIM being the person to deliver Indy. In spite of the fact that Sturgeon has come so close because people like her whereas even a majority of SNP voters think Salmond is a c**t.
We’re gonna stay chained to f***ing England all because his ego can’t handle a woman finishing the job for him
Posted by: Rooney 26th February 2021, 08:45 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 26 2021, 07:46 PM)
This is his endgame
He cannot stand that HE won’t be the one to win Indy and so instead he is trying his level best to bring down the one person who is standing in his way of HIM being the person to deliver Indy. In spite of the fact that Sturgeon has come so close because people like her whereas even a majority of SNP voters think Salmond is a c**t.
We’re gonna stay chained to f***ing England all because his ego can’t handle a woman finishing the job for him
That would make some sense. It does all seem really bizzare though from an Scottish Independence perspective as Sturgeon aside I don't think there is anyone else who is as good as her to deliver independence if she were forced to resign. And he is also not particularly popular either, which makes it even the more bizzare. I'm not close on anything at all so I can't proclaim to have any big opinion or insight but it just seems mad that Salmond is doing the Tories work for them.
Posted by: Harve 26th February 2021, 10:43 PM
The likes of The Spectator, TERFs, Jackie Baillie, Wings Over Scotland types, Murdo Fraser all clubbing together with Alex Salmond to bring down the mainstream SNP is just really funny. An unholy alliance of several varieties of awful that on paper should all hate each other.
Posted by: Quarantilas 26th February 2021, 11:00 PM
Some SNP MPs and MSPs are outing themselves as having absolute worm for brains over this.
So many supposed Indy supporters are being played for fools by unionists and an entire state/media enterprise geared towards crushing Scottish nationalism, culture and language
Posted by: Harve 26th February 2021, 11:17 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 27 2021, 01:00 AM)
Some SNP MPs and MSPs are outing themselves as having absolute worm for brains over this.
I don't know about MSPs but I checked the three* SNP MP backbenchers' Twitter likes and....yep.
*Having a shadow frontbench of 45 and a backbench of 3 is top-tier trolling.
Posted by: Coldman 26th February 2021, 11:25 PM
I do feel sorry for Alex Salmond as he was after all found innocent of the sexual assault accusations against him.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 27th February 2021, 12:57 PM
I’m positive Nicola will come through this and will look like a better leader after it all fails! The tories on social media have been relentless especially mp’s
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 27th February 2021, 12:59 PM
Today was Alex Salmond’s chance to provide proof of the conspiracy which has been alleged – and he did not do so. Instead, under oath, he explicitly conceded there was no such evidence against the First Minister"
Posted by: Doctor Blind 27th February 2021, 03:05 PM
QUOTE(Coldman @ Feb 26 2021, 11:25 PM)
I do feel sorry for Alex Salmond as he was after all found innocent of the sexual assault accusations against him.
How can you possibly feel sorry for him?
He may have been found not guilty of breaking the law, but he was still undoubtably a sex pest and a bully who abused his position of authority - repeatedly.
Posted by: Harve 27th February 2021, 05:46 PM
QUOTE(Coldman @ Feb 27 2021, 01:25 AM)
I do feel sorry for Alex Salmond as he was after all found innocent of the sexual assault accusations against him.
He was found not guilty of criminality for 12 cases, with the thirteenth being 'not proven'. These two outcomes are different to the accusations being false.
Posted by: steve201 27th February 2021, 10:00 PM
Anyone else not think it’s a joke Johnson gets away with taking the piss out of the SNP at PMQs by consistently calling them the Scottish Nationalist Party?
Posted by: common sense 27th February 2021, 10:07 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Feb 27 2021, 10:00 PM)
Anyone else not think it’s a joke Johnson gets away with taking the piss out of the SNP at PMQs by consistently calling them the Scottish Nationalist Party?
Erm, that's what the SNP is short for though so he's doing nothing wrong.
Posted by: Suedehead2 27th February 2021, 10:32 PM
QUOTE(common sense @ Feb 27 2021, 10:07 PM)
Erm, that's what the SNP is short for though so he's doing nothing wrong.
It isn't. It is the Scottish national Party. Therefore, he is doing something wrong. Again.
Posted by: T Boy 27th February 2021, 10:38 PM
But unfortunately he knows he can do whatever he likes and no one will hold him to account.
Posted by: Smint 27th February 2021, 10:44 PM
I hope so. According to the Telegraph Johnson is thinking of organising a Union boycott of a referendum but that will just make the Independence movement stronger and more determined.
Posted by: Dill Doe 27th February 2021, 10:46 PM
QUOTE(Smint @ Feb 27 2021, 10:44 PM)
I hope so. According to the Telegraph Johnson is thinking of organising a Union boycott of a referendum but that will just make the Independence movement stronger and more determined.
Ah, the Catalonia defence, I see. He eill then claim it wasn't legitimate as people boycotted it. Sigh. These tory plans are so asinine and transparent, and yet they get away with thrm time after time.
Posted by: Quarantilas 27th February 2021, 10:51 PM
QUOTE(common sense @ Feb 27 2021, 11:07 PM)
Erm, that's what the SNP is short for though so he's doing nothing wrong.
SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY
It is a deliberate and quite pathetic childish act by a grown ass adult.
That people can't even get the name correct of the only actual opposition at Westminster since 2015 and the literal party of Scottish Government since 2007 truly underscores our need to break free from a system that treats us as an inconvenience and like noisy unruly tenants who you hate but are happy to steal all their cash and resources.
Posted by: blacksquare 27th February 2021, 11:04 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Feb 27 2021, 11:38 PM)
But unfortunately he knows he can do whatever he likes and no one will hold him to account.
What are you talking about? Look at all the consequences Johnson faced when he unlawfully closed Parliament, or the consequences Hancock faced when he acted unlawfully (and refused to apologise) with those PPE contracts? Oh, and poor Priti Patel — she really did get thrown to the wolves when she broke the ministerial code and bullied her staff.
It's almost as if the rules don't apply to Westminster and Westminster alone.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 27th February 2021, 11:23 PM
Ruth Davidson is the worst
Posted by: Quarantilas 27th February 2021, 11:29 PM
QUOTE(TalkAboutWall @ Feb 28 2021, 12:23 AM)
Ruth Davidson is the worst
A sentence that is forever valid and needs not one shred of context
Posted by: steve201 28th February 2021, 12:18 AM
QUOTE(common sense @ Feb 27 2021, 10:07 PM)
Erm, that's what the SNP is short for though so he's doing nothing wrong.
Clueless as ever Nonsense!
Posted by: steve201 28th February 2021, 12:18 AM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 27 2021, 10:51 PM)
SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY
It is a deliberate and quite pathetic childish act by a grown ass adult. That people can't even get the name correct of the only actual opposition at Westminster since 2015 and the literal party of Scottish Government since 2007 truly underscores our need to break free from a system that treats us as an inconvenience and like noisy unruly tenants who you hate but are happy to steal all their cash and resources.
Why not set up your own republican government like the Irish did when no one listened to them in the English parliament ��
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th February 2021, 12:21 AM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Feb 28 2021, 01:18 AM)
Why not set up your own republican government like the Irish did when no one listened to them in the English parliament ��
Coz it’s not the early 1900‘s and Spain would 110% veto us trying to join the EU if we did that. Needs to be an above board ref in accordance with UK law so Madrid can sleep without worrying about it giving Catalonia any more ideas innit
Posted by: steve201 28th February 2021, 12:29 AM
Oh I know it was tongue in cheek
But in reality the rules are always put in place and then changed by those in power and that’s why Ireland did it at the time, as you say simpler times then though. I mean unionists and the tories at that time could threaten treason to go against democratic wishes of the Irish people by starting paramilitary armies to defend the union and yet we only ever talk about republicans being terrorists.
Posted by: Suedehead2 1st March 2021, 12:04 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Feb 27 2021, 10:51 PM)
SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY
It is a deliberate and quite pathetic childish act by a grown ass adult. That people can't even get the name correct of the only actual opposition at Westminster since 2015 and the literal party of Scottish Government since 2007 truly underscores our need to break free from a system that treats us as an inconvenience and like noisy unruly tenants who you hate but are happy to steal all their cash and resources.
As I said above, Johnson is wrong to misname the party at every opportunity. I would feel that the SNP's anger was more justified if Ian Blackford took the trouble to get the Lib Dems' name right.
Posted by: Quarantilas 1st March 2021, 12:20 PM
I haven’t heard or seen anything where Blackford has got the LD name incorrect.
Posted by: Suedehead2 1st March 2021, 12:24 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 1 2021, 12:20 PM)
I haven’t heard or seen anything where Blackford has got the LD name incorrect.
He regularly refers to "the Liberals" who are a totally separate party.
Posted by: Quarantilas 1st March 2021, 12:32 PM
I don’t think I would have even noticed that. It’s just a shortening. While I’d usually go LibDem, I’ve heard Liberals before so perhaps it is a Scottish thing. Can certainly think of worst things to call the LibDems than Liberals. At least that’s actually in your name. The difference between Liberal and Liberals is nothing but National and Nationalist is quite substantial
Posted by: Suedehead2 1st March 2021, 12:42 PM
The fact remains that he can't be bothered to get the name right. Besides, Lib Dems is two syllables while Liberals is three.
Posted by: steve201 1st March 2021, 01:28 PM
I’ve never heard him say that but if it annoys people then say it correctly. At least Simon is trying to keep the social Democrat flame alive amongst all the orange bookers around him in the party!
Posted by: Smint 1st March 2021, 08:03 PM
So anything about the vote of no confidence in Swinney worth worrying for people who want Independence to happen. It's annoying that Scottish Independence support is currently evens from big leads for Indie a couple of months back. Considering the Tories are gaining in the polls in the UK, it's turning more and more like a one party state.
Posted by: blacksquare 2nd March 2021, 09:34 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Feb 28 2021, 12:04 AM)
Look at all the consequences Johnson faced when he unlawfully closed Parliament, or the consequences Hancock faced when he acted unlawfully (and refused to apologise) with those PPE contracts? Oh, and poor Priti Patel — she really did get thrown to the wolves when she broke the ministerial code and bullied her staff.
It's almost as if the rules don't apply to Westminster and Westminster alone.
I'm a little shocked at how much the media are running with this story (Laura Kuenssberg's feed has almost exclusively been about it for over a week) after barely making any noise or moving on quickly with similar situations within Westminster. Not that it shouldn't be reported, or that there shouldn't be consequences if proven necessary, but the difference in coverage and the hypocrisy of it is quite something.
Is this actually the end of Sturgeon?
Posted by: Smint 2nd March 2021, 09:55 PM
I know and you have utterly diabolical papers like the Telegraph and Mail tut tutting at Sturgeon and asking her to resign when they never did a thing about the multitude of Tory sins. I just hope the Scottish see through this and don't make the good the enemy of the best. It's just with the vaccine and this the Tories are always so bloody lucky.
Posted by: steve201 3rd March 2021, 12:23 PM
SNP MP Patrick Grady called Johnson the leader of the British Nationalist Party at PMQs today 😂 great stuff!
Posted by: Quarantilas 3rd March 2021, 12:56 PM
Should have said English Nationalist Party, would have been fractionally more accurate I think
Posted by: steve201 3rd March 2021, 01:01 PM
Yeh having a go at the Scottish tories too I guess and the BNP aren’t thought too well of. good to see them giving some back.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 3rd March 2021, 03:52 PM
Tories are really dragging Nicola through the mud demanding to resign because they believe she's lied - the same people that broke rules during the elections, Hancock was in court for a much worse offence but this was never mentioned, the witch hunt for nicola right now is uncomfortable, Salmond is a smug dickhead, he acted inappropriate towards young females, two came forward and there's probably more. He's just annoyed that it's rightfully ruined his reputation / whatever reputation he had.
Posted by: JSG 3rd March 2021, 04:13 PM
I think Nicola handled herself well today and I believe that she'll be found innocent in the end and not asked to resign. I hope everyone sees through Salmond in the end. They literally have nothing on Nicola and resort to this to try and get her out. It's rediculous.
Posted by: Dill Doe 3rd March 2021, 04:20 PM
But the Tories lie ALLL the time!!! This is what the Tory One Party State's plan to end independence was all along:take down Nicola. If she has to resign over BEING ACCUSED OF LYING, then EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE LYING TORIES HAS TO GO! Otherwise, independence referendum and let Scotland decide its future without the poisonous English media or their Tory elite.
Posted by: Rooney 3rd March 2021, 04:44 PM
The Scottish Tories just basically see this as their own election campaign, why need to spend shitload of money when you can just watch the drama unfold. Personally I think it's wrong for them to call for Sturgeon to resign, this is why we have enquiries and why all politicians should be held to account. They are pretty serious allegations, but will be interesting to see what the enquiry finds.
Reading between the lines it does look as if the personal feud between Salmon and Sturgeon has spilled over. I think at the end of the day if you break the Ministerial code you should resign if you have any morals, but more and more politicians seem to be flaunting the code (across all parties) and just think they can get away with it. Salmond is a complete arse.
Posted by: Quarantilas 3rd March 2021, 04:52 PM
The unionist press and parties we’re always going to tray and go at this hard mainly because they absolutely must at all costs prevent a majority SNP gov in May. That’s is the only way they can then cling on to the fragile remains of the union. Everyone with an ounce of brains knows that if the SNP get a majority there is no stopping indyref2 at all and it will happen. No majority and the Tories will stand in the way claiming it’s not the will of the People Even tho all evidence says it intact is. Easier for them when the SNP aren’t in majority as in their maths they don’t see the Green Party.
Anything that can be weaponised to knock even a percent off the SNP vote will be used. They have politicised this process and they should all be deeply ashamed for that. Sturgeon is the only one here who seems to have actually mentioned the claimants and given a shit about them. This should be about improving the process for next time, not advancing the political ambitions of low life actual human scum who make me violently ill like Alex Cole-Hamilton (who literally screamed foul abuse at the SNP committee chair just last month!!!!! How quick the media dropped that) and Murdo Fraser.
Posted by: J00prstar 3rd March 2021, 07:25 PM
As I've seen elsewhere I think this may actually backfire, given that the ScotTory (posh, too) line has essentially been through the whole inquiry "but Nicola, why DIDN'T you lie for Salmond to try and cover up alleged crimes against women?" to which Sturgeon has replied calmly and somewhat incredulously.
If anything it makes the Tories look deranged and out of touch.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 3rd March 2021, 07:48 PM
I think it anything it’s helping generate more support for Nicola
Posted by: T Boy 3rd March 2021, 07:56 PM
https://imgbb.com/
Posted by: Quarantilas 3rd March 2021, 08:52 PM
Social media tonight of droves of people joining the SNP.
Honestly how any Scot in their right mind could support the Scottish Tories I don’t know
Posted by: Smint 3rd March 2021, 09:08 PM
That is perfect news. In a way I would think that even if SNP + Green is over 50% of votes and seats then that's enough even if the SNP don't manage it on their own as Scottish Green support Independence.
They could certainly pass motions to say they want a referendum and that'll be approved by the Scottish parliament.
Posted by: steve201 3rd March 2021, 09:22 PM
QUOTE(T Boy @ Mar 3 2021, 07:56 PM)
https://imgbb.com/
So true its embarressing.
The coverage by the Spectator really winds me up too, Andrew Neill and the likes sitting in their second homes in France spouting out unionist retoric!
Posted by: steve201 3rd March 2021, 09:24 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 3 2021, 08:52 PM)
Social media tonight of droves of people joining the SNP.
Honestly how any Scot in their right mind could support the Scottish Tories I don’t know
I would say the Tory vote has simply increased since the 2014 referendum as they stand as the only party that can defend the union and the polarisation caused by that, Labour and others just get lost in the shouting.
Posted by: Quarantilas 4th March 2021, 12:34 PM
Yesterday’s shambles can best be summed up by this short video clip
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 4th March 2021, 01:27 PM
Newspapers seem to be pro snp tbf
Posted by: blacksquare 4th March 2021, 04:18 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 2 2021, 10:34 PM)
I'm a little shocked at how much the media are running with this story (Laura Kuenssberg's feed has almost exclusively been about it for over a week) after barely making any noise or moving on quickly with similar situations within Westminster. Not that it shouldn't be reported, or that there shouldn't be consequences if proven necessary, but the difference in coverage and the hypocrisy of it is quite something.
Is this actually the end of Sturgeon?
Silly me.
Posted by: Dill Doe 4th March 2021, 04:34 PM
Looks like this has all blown up in the Tories' faces!! We can now only assume this wall-to-wall coverage and sttacks ftom the BBTory will become the noem r.e ALLEGATIONS of breaking the ministerial code, let alone it actually happening, from the government?
Posted by: Dill Doe 4th March 2021, 04:46 PM
Welsh support for independence up to 39%. It was between 2 - 5% under Blair's Labour. Brexshit: the gift that just keeps on giving. It is so ironic that Farage and the hard right wanted to break up the European Union, but the only union they imperilled was their own.
Posted by: Quarantilas 4th March 2021, 05:02 PM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 4 2021, 05:18 PM)
Silly me.
The SNP live tweet FMQs and that is barely the start of her absolute savage destruction of Ruth Davidson. I would love to see a video in full of it. Ruthie was DOA at ERI after FMQs
Great to see so many new members!
Posted by: Quarantilas 4th March 2021, 05:03 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Mar 4 2021, 05:46 PM)
Welsh support for independence up to 39%. Itw as between 2 - 5% unser Blair's Labour. Brexshit: the gift that just keeps on giving. It is so ironic that Farage and the hard right wanted to break up the European Union, but the only union they imperilled wss their own.
I believe historically it has been around 10% support for iCymru. Up to 39% is remarkable. Corona really is gonna be the end of the union
Posted by: J00prstar 4th March 2021, 05:08 PM
Deafening silence from the British media and English public/political commentariat about when Tory ministers are going to be subjected to 8 hours of independent questioning with the threat of deselection if anything suggesting guilt comes out, for every single questionably legal action they've taken in the past 12 months.
Nothing for Hancock wasting tax money on inadequate PPE.
Nothing for Boris forcing through an ill-fitting Brexit.
Nothing for Farage spreading harmful lies.
Nothing for Patel bullying staff in her office.
Posted by: TalkAboutWall 4th March 2021, 05:11 PM
YASSS
proud of nicola smashing this and coming through the hardship
Posted by: Suedehead2 4th March 2021, 05:34 PM
QUOTE(J00prstar @ Mar 4 2021, 05:08 PM)
Deafening silence from the British media and English public/political commentariat about when Tory ministers are going to be subjected to 8 hours of independent questioning with the threat of deselection if anything suggesting guilt comes out, for every single questionably legal action they've taken in the past 12 months.
Nothing for Hancock wasting tax money on inadequate PPE.
Nothing for Boris forcing through an ill-fitting Brexit.
Nothing for Farage spreading harmful lies.
Nothing for Patel bullying staff in her office.
Nothing for Jenrick illegally granting planning permission to a Tory donor.
Nothing for Williamson getting back into the Cabinet a few months after being sacked for being a security risk (and collecting a hefty severance payment on the way out of the door).
Nothing for Hancock giving a contract to his mate from the pub.
Nothing for Johnson unlawfully proroguing parliament.
Posted by: steve201 4th March 2021, 06:20 PM
EXACTLY I hope the average scottish(and English) voter can see through this charade.
Unfort the 40% Tory vote consistently makes me think the usual suspects don’t. Same who think Jeremy Corbyn is a raging antisemite
Posted by: Doctor Blind 5th March 2021, 12:20 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 4 2021, 04:18 PM)
She's a really impressive politician - very persuasive. I only wish we had someone like that to root for to uphold and fight for the Labour Party values & policies.
I guess it will be quite likely that she will have been found to have broken the ministerial code (which, if you're a Conservative is obviously fine by the way), I've not followed this closely but her strange forgetfulness over that meeting seems a little suspect. I don't however think she will go though. The argument from the SNP will be, we've got an election in May, let's 'put it to the people to decide'.
Posted by: Dill Doe 5th March 2021, 02:07 AM
The Tories break it every other week and are often in contempt of parliament!!
The implied message here is that the born to rule lot deserve power and can do what they want. The rest have to toe their landed elite line, or get out.
Posted by: steve201 5th March 2021, 08:45 AM
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Mar 5 2021, 12:20 AM)
She's a really impressive politician - very persuasive. I only wish we had someone like that to root for to uphold and fight for the Labour Party values & policies.
I guess it will be quite likely that she will have been found to have broken the ministerial code (which, if you're a Conservative is obviously fine by the way), I've not followed this closely but her strange forgetfulness over that meeting seems a little suspect. I don't however think she will go though. The argument from the SNP will be, we've got an election in May, let's 'put it to the people to decide'.
I do love seeing the face of a Tory who realises they have a great opponent!
Same faces as were sat opposite Blair in 1994-1997 era
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th March 2021, 10:59 PM
Papers are screaming about a new poll showing 52% wanting to remain part of the UK after the vitriolic campaign vs the SNP. This is just the narrative that they wanted.
Posted by: Smint 7th March 2021, 11:02 PM
I know. Wonder how much is vaccine related though as the alternative (that Sturgeon punished by a Westminster smear campaign) is depressing. But just one poll.
Posted by: steve201 7th March 2021, 11:16 PM
First poll since September last year is it not!
Posted by: Doctor Blind 7th March 2021, 11:35 PM
Let's put it to the test and hold a referendum then! If the British establishment are so confident of winning..
Posted by: Quarantilas 8th March 2021, 08:14 AM
The poll has dodgy methodology but the papers aren’t so keen to point that out as it doesn’t feed their agenda
It also made the BBC who have a policy of “not talking about individual polls”
The first thing to go to the gallows in iAlba is the British Media
Posted by: Dill Doe 8th March 2021, 04:23 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 8 2021, 09:14 AM)
The poll has dodgy methodology but the papers aren’t so keen to point that out as it doesn’t feed their agenda It also made the BBC who have a policy of “not talking about individual polls” The first thing to go to the gallows in iAlba is the British Media
I have said for YEARS that the BBConservative LOVES the Tories. It can barely contain its glee when it gets to attack Labour, or report a Tory winning an election. People on here are inally coming round to seeing what we've seen for years. The BBTory is really showing its bias with Scottish independence. How can anyone take it seriously as a news organisation again after all its bias? I think we have outgrown state news. Its domestic news should close I think. It is no longer fit for purpose and ram-packed with Tories.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 19th March 2021, 09:10 AM
Parliament has leaked (ironic) that 5-4 Nicola has mislead the parliament, she didn’t have much of a chance when a lot of parties had already made up their mind before it. Douglas Ross and Ruth Davidson are unbearable
Posted by: steve201 19th March 2021, 09:16 AM
Yeh its a huge establishment game to destroy her and the SNP in any way they can to stop independence.
Posted by: Quarantilas 19th March 2021, 09:23 AM
110%. It’s nothing but nasty politicking. The irony of a political witch-hunt aimed at „restoring the integrity of parliament“ leaking the report early and in highly selective parts should be lost on no one. I hope Salmond is happy with the knowledge that he’ll die now under Tory rule and that Holyrood will be dissolved before Scotland can restore its independence. All to protect his fragile wee ego
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 19th March 2021, 10:19 AM
I’m worried about the outcome next week now, I fully believe she can turn it around and still smash the elections and the good thing is she’s gaining in supporters more and more despite the media attempting to tarnish everything that she does.
Posted by: Dill Doe 19th March 2021, 10:46 AM
The BBC RUSHING to report on a leak too... Ehere was this focus on Tory incompetence, mismanagement, and breaking ministerial codes?
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 19th March 2021, 11:54 AM
I wonder if there will be an investigation on the leak? Nah
Posted by: steve201 19th March 2021, 01:35 PM
Yeh usual sources such as Andrew Neill and cohorts in the Spectator breaking it and talking non stop about it
Posted by: blacksquare 19th March 2021, 02:42 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 19 2021, 10:16 AM)
Yeh its a huge establishment game to destroy her and the SNP in any way they can to stop independence.
Posted by: Dill Doe 19th March 2021, 02:53 PM
I'd honestly support SNP over Keir Starmer's Tory Lite party :')
Posted by: blacksquare 19th March 2021, 03:04 PM
I do think Sturgeon is one of the most credible and competent leaders the UK has seen for a long time — it would be a shame for her to go down like this.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 19th March 2021, 03:38 PM
They’re just trying to ruin the next Scottish elections as much as possible to avoid a referendum
Posted by: Dill Doe 19th March 2021, 04:28 PM
Meanwhile, the Tory lot are completely BEFUDDLED when you suggest that it is all hypocrisy on a massive scale and thwt the Tories have done far worse. They are beyond clueless, say Tpries have never done anything wrong, and attack "commie Labour" instead. Sigh. Our radicalising hard right Tory fascist propaganda is doing its job.
Posted by: Quarantilas 19th March 2021, 06:11 PM
The British establishment aren’t even trying to hide it anymore. Anyone who is Indy minded and knowingly votes unionist or throws the greens their list vote is a f***ing moron
Posted by: steve201 19th March 2021, 06:16 PM
Would love to see independence happen even more now to see the faces on these scummy Tory bast*rds and their establishment cohorts. It was the same in Ireland they never give an inch without destroying everything in their path in anyway they can!
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 20th March 2021, 12:03 PM
Snp are growing in numbers too, I think she should let the next election do the talking, if snp bombs then she should resign but I think they are going to smash it and that’s why Tories and labour and the media are now trying to turn against her, Green Party seen to be supporting her
Posted by: Smint 20th March 2021, 12:37 PM
The most recent polling is showing SNP are short of an overall majority in May. When most of the media are doing all the Tories work, going to be tough. And the vaccine success will be hyped to high heaven. I do hope it's wrong though.
Posted by: Dill Doe 20th March 2021, 12:52 PM
The media ARE the Tories these days.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 20th March 2021, 01:02 PM
The media have been absolutely brutal but I think if she fights on she would gain a lot more respect, greens said they would be willing to work with SNP, I have no idea why tories are predicted to do so well but hopefully it's just scare mongering.
Posted by: Dill Doe 20th March 2021, 01:44 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ Mar 20 2021, 01:02 PM)
The media have been absolutely brutal but I think if she fights on she would gain a lot more respect, greens said they would be willing to work with SNP, I have no idea why tories are predicted to do so well but hopefully it's just scare mongering.
Remember, opinion polls are used to influence public opinion! In a one party state with the media dog-piling on Tory opposituon and praising the Tories, this is usually the result.
Posted by: steve201 20th March 2021, 05:20 PM
The tories know it would only take a small change to make the snp look like they lost the mandate hence the past few months. Reminds me a lot of the 2014 ref campaign when the English media saw the poll showing independence ahead in mid September all the supermarkets etc coming out with scare mongering at the unionists request
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 02:51 PM
Apparently Tories are planning to hold a no confidence vote on Wednesday if Nicola doesn't resign on Tuesday. Salmond is also going to release a statement on this on Wednesday too.
It's honestly disgusting the treatment showing here, I think it's the first time I've felt this passionate since the referendum, the polls are showing independence lead increasing too, it's just a shame that she could be forced out by the end of the week.
Posted by: Quarantilas 22nd March 2021, 03:00 PM
If the report clears her (not the biased committee one but the independent one) then I have a feeling that this will backfire spectacularly on the Tories and just Fire up the base. Actually tbh either way I have a feeling this will not end well for the Scottish Tories and Unionist Tories of various other shades which apparently seems to include a former SNP First Minister now (whos conduct i ain’t dignifying by naming him)
Posted by: Rooney 22nd March 2021, 03:13 PM
There hasn't actually been much said on the English media about this, at least not yet.
If any politician breaks the Ministerial Code as a matter of principle they should resign. However more and more, cross-party wide we are seeing politicians breaking the code but not resigning. More of a general point about politicians, but anyway in this context unless it's really, really bad then I suspect Sturgeon will hold her ground and ride the backlash out. It's been a proven tactic to work recently so I suspect no matter what party allegiance, MPs will do it as once the dust settles people find something else to vent their anger at.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 03:47 PM
The James Cameron report should be out fairly shortly too!
Posted by: Quarantilas 22nd March 2021, 04:04 PM
QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 22 2021, 04:13 PM)
There hasn't actually been much said on the English media about this, at least not yet.
If any politician breaks the Ministerial Code as a matter of principle they should resign. However more and more, cross-party wide we are seeing politicians breaking the code but not resigning. More of a general point about politicians, but anyway in this context unless it's really, really bad then I suspect Sturgeon will hold her ground and ride the backlash out. It's been a proven tactic to work recently so I suspect no matter what party allegiance, MPs will do it as once the dust settles people find something else to vent their anger at.
I’ve lost count of the number of Tories that have broken it since the 2019 election alone and yet all remain in post. And DRoss hasn’t called for a single one of them to resign. Same for Labour. As such every single hypocritical utterance should be viewed through this lens. But the media won’t do that because they, like Tories/Unionists (at this point in Scotland there is no difference. You’re either Green, SNP or a Tory c**t), have an agenda to push that involves keeping the unicorn in chains
Posted by: Smint 22nd March 2021, 04:39 PM
And she's cleared
Whether it's enough to put the SNP back in the position of getting a majority remains to be seen - I think the recent poll dip is vaccine related and this saga fell on party lines.
Posted by: blacksquare 22nd March 2021, 04:46 PM
Scottish Tories raging on Twitter in 3, 2, 1…
Posted by: steve201 22nd March 2021, 05:01 PM
🙌😍 Great news - hope this hits the tories in the arse now in the coming months!!!
Posted by: Rooney 22nd March 2021, 05:08 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 22 2021, 04:04 PM)
I’ve lost count of the number of Tories that have broken it since the 2019 election alone and yet all remain in post. And DRoss hasn’t called for a single one of them to resign. Same for Labour. As such every single hypocritical utterance should be viewed through this lens. But the media won’t do that because they, like Tories/Unionists (at this point in Scotland there is no difference. You’re either Green, SNP or a Tory c**t), have an agenda to push that involves keeping the unicorn in chains
That's because it's the whole "do as I say, not as I do" It does really wind me up a lot about politicians in the current climate, too many career focused politicians and not enough looking after the man in the street. But as soon as the man in the street comes on they get ridiculed (and before anyone has a go at me, Corbyn was not the man in the street!).
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 05:51 PM
The Greens are expected to support Nicola when Tories vote for no confidence!
Scottish Greens co-leader Patrick Harvie said his party would not support the Conservatives' vote of no confidence in the first minister.
“In lodging a vote of no confidence before this report was published, just as they called for the first minister's resignation before she even gave evidence to the parliamentary committee, the Tories have shown that they have no interest in establishing the truth," he said.
Mr Harvie said James Hamilton had clearly concluded that Nicola Sturgeon did not breach the ministerial code.
He said the independent report "retains credibility in this process, unlike the parliamentary committee which has repeatedly sabotaged its own authority and betrayed the trust of original complainers".
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 05:56 PM
Tories are completely going to self implode before the elections aren’t they. I wonder if the media will say Nicola is innocent then ?
Posted by: Quarantilas 22nd March 2021, 06:05 PM
The Schadenfreude I feel right now is off the f***ing Charts
This is the best possible outcome. It makes whatever the committee report and Salmond have to say extremely easy to paint as what they Are, partisan smears designed to attack and bring down a powerful woman. It’s hard to think of a bigger open goal the Tories could have scored with the leaks from the committee but then they go an call for a vote of no confidence on the back of a report they haven’t seen that says exactly the opposite of what they had decided it should say.
Absolute clownery. How can any right minded person look at the Scottish Tories and think „yup, that’s the Party for me“. Useless c**ts couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery with instructions and help from brewery staff
Posted by: steve201 22nd March 2021, 06:15 PM
QUOTE(Smint @ Mar 22 2021, 04:39 PM)
And she's cleared
Whether it's enough to put the SNP back in the position of getting a majority remains to be seen - I think the recent poll dip is vaccine related and this saga fell on party lines.
Yeh the tories won’t care as long as it effects them in the election and means they can argue against another referendum and put that to end. They are tories they don’t work on facts after all!
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 06:16 PM
Douglas Ross, Ruth Davidson and Salmon the trio of clowns!
Posted by: Quarantilas 22nd March 2021, 06:51 PM
Am f***in buzzing this stitch up has just utterly collapsed in on itself.
I feel for the complainants who have been utterly betrayed by the unionist members of that committee going on a witch hunt to bring down a powerful woman for the actions of her male predecessor.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 22nd March 2021, 06:56 PM
Her leadership during this
Posted by: Chez Wombat 22nd March 2021, 06:58 PM
I never suspected she was guilty, what a massive shitstorm over nothing, Sturgeon's not perfect, but she is still very competent. I'm hoping she can ride whatever 'backlash' remains and support for independence remains strong. I don't even fully get the whole thing, it's just so, so transparent that it's been taken advantage of by the Tories to attempt to keep Scotland and the Media have happily played along.
Posted by: steve201 22nd March 2021, 08:00 PM
Douglas Ross still asking for her head 🙄
Posted by: steve201 22nd March 2021, 08:02 PM
QUOTE(Chez Wombat @ Mar 22 2021, 06:58 PM)
I never suspected she was guilty, what a massive shitstorm over nothing, Sturgeon's not perfect, but she is still very competent. I'm hoping she can ride whatever 'backlash' remains and support for independence remains strong. I don't even fully get the whole thing, it's just so, so transparent that it's been taken advantage of by the Tories to attempt to keep Scotland and the Media have happily played along.
The Spectator and Andrew Neil (from his luxury villa second home in France) were the ones pushing this months ago! The mainstreams just followed like sheep.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 23rd March 2021, 09:15 AM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 22 2021, 08:00 PM)
Douglas Ross still asking for her head 🙄
I'm praying he loses his election
Posted by: Quarantilas 23rd March 2021, 10:11 AM
He will be top of the list for the North-East so will be guaranteed a seat and another political job he can half arse between being a flag waving bast*rd and a shite linesman
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 23rd March 2021, 04:47 PM
Not Lib Dem’s and labour now calling out Tories and refusing to vote in no confidence lmao
Posted by: Suedehead2 23rd March 2021, 04:57 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ Mar 23 2021, 04:47 PM)
Not Lib Dem’s and labour now calling out Tories and refusing to vote in no confidence lmao
I would have been horrified if the Lib Dems had backed the Tories on this.
Posted by: Quarantilas 23rd March 2021, 06:35 PM
Microphone status: Dropped
Posted by: Quarantilas 23rd March 2021, 06:46 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 23 2021, 05:57 PM)
I would have been horrified if the Lib Dems had backed the Tories on this.
Then you must be horrified by Willie Rennie and his 4 pals on an hourly basis.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 23rd March 2021, 07:00 PM
Lib Dem’s have been very Tory during all this!
Posted by: Tawdry Hepburn 23rd March 2021, 08:06 PM
Ruth Davidson's face the moment the no-confidence vote got defeated was PRICELESS.
Posted by: steve201 23rd March 2021, 08:52 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 23 2021, 04:57 PM)
I would have been horrified if the Lib Dems had backed the Tories on this.
Given their past in coalition governments they do quite a bit!
Posted by: blacksquare 23rd March 2021, 10:01 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 22 2021, 07:05 PM)
The Schadenfreude I feel right now is off the f***ing Charts
Absolute clownery. How can any right minded person look at the Scottish Tories and think „yup, that’s the Party for me“. Useless c**ts couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery with instructions and help from brewery staff
How I picture you after every post
Posted by: Suedehead2 23rd March 2021, 10:12 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 23 2021, 08:52 PM)
Given their past in coalition governments they do quite a bit!
You mean the Lab / Lib Dem coalition in the first Scottish parliament? Or the current one in Wales? Or perhaps you are getting confused between the Lib Dems and the SNP who worked with the Tories in their first term.
Posted by: steve201 23rd March 2021, 10:38 PM
Nope the coalition government in Westminster
Posted by: Quarantilas 24th March 2021, 09:35 AM
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 23 2021, 11:01 PM)
How I picture you after every post
🤣🤣🤣🤣
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 23 2021, 11:12 PM)
You mean the Lab / Lib Dem coalition in the first Scottish parliament? Or the current one in Wales? Or perhaps you are getting confused between the Lib Dems and the SNP who worked with the Tories in their first term.
In both the Salmond and Sturgeon minority administrations every single year each of the 4 opposition parties has been approached to discuss a budget deal. When in a minority administration you work with whoever has come to the table with a constructive and pragmatic approach so you can pass the budget and avoid an early election. Until 2021, neither of those words applied to the Liberal Democrats. Perhaps instead of trying some form of snide gotcha moment you should be asking yourself why didn’t the LibDems work with the SNP from 2007-2011 or 2017-2020? Why was it the SNP had no choice but to deal with the Tories in order to satisfy parliamentary arithmetic to pass the budget in 2007-2011?
And let’s not pretend that passing 4 budget bills is in anyway comparable to what the LibDems have done and continue to do in cahoots with the Tories.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 24th March 2021, 10:13 AM
daily record were the only paper that actually bothered to post sturgeon in a positive light and posted a photo of ruth and douglas and called them dumb and dumber
Posted by: Suedehead2 24th March 2021, 10:20 AM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 24 2021, 09:35 AM)
�������� In both the Salmond and Sturgeon minority administrations every single year each of the 4 opposition parties has been approached to discuss a budget deal. When in a minority administration you work with whoever has come to the table with a constructive and pragmatic approach so you can pass the budget and avoid an early election. Until 2021, neither of those words applied to the Liberal Democrats. Perhaps instead of trying some form of snide gotcha moment you should be asking yourself why didn’t the LibDems work with the SNP from 2007-2011 or 2017-2020? Why was it the SNP had no choice but to deal with the Tories in order to satisfy parliamentary arithmetic to pass the budget in 2007-2011? And let’s not pretend that passing 4 budget bills is in anyway comparable to what the LibDems have done and continue to do in cahoots with the Tories.
The Lib Dems are not currently doing anything in cahoots with the Tories other than in some local authorities. They are also working with Labour, Greens and, presumably the SNP in other local authorities.
Posted by: Dill Doe 24th March 2021, 11:40 AM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 24 2021, 11:20 AM)
The Lib Dems are not currently doing anything in cahoots with the Tories other than in some local authorities. They are also working with Labour, Greens and, presumably the SNP in other local authorities.
They RUSHED to support Bojo's election and attacked Labour at every moment they had and rejected a progressive alliance unless Labour dropped Corbyn, presumably to replace him with a neoliberal...
Posted by: Suedehead2 24th March 2021, 01:26 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Mar 24 2021, 11:40 AM)
They RUSHED to support Bojo's election and attacked Labour at every moment they had and rejected a progressive alliance unless Labour dropped Corbyn, presumably to replace him with a neoliberal...
Not that nonsense again. Johnson would have got his election even if the Lib Dems had voted against. Why is it so hard fo9r people to understand that. Of course, without the Lib Dem Fixed term Parliament Act, no vote would have been required. Johnson could have called an election as soon as he seized power.
The Lib Dems did NOT reject a progressive alliance. Such an alliance would have required the support of rebel Tories. It was always clear that none of them would have supported such an alliance led by Corbyn. That made the Lib Dems' veto of Corbyn irrelevant (and not really a veto at all). The Lib Dems and Greens offered to work with Labour in the election. Labour refused. Labour could have worked with the Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and rebel Tories to force a second referendum. They didn't.
Posted by: Quarantilas 24th March 2021, 01:35 PM
As overblown as the ego of the former LibDem leader from Bath was, it was Labour that blew apart any and all chances we had of preventing both brexshit and the majority administration of the clown. Ultimately the blame there lies with Corbyns ego and not the fact that Jo was/is/will always be nothing more than a Tory with an orange badge from bath parachuted into a Scottish seat that humiliatingly ejected her not once but twice. 💁🏼♂️
Posted by: steve201 24th March 2021, 01:38 PM
Yes the fixed term parliament act, the legislation that caused 2 non fixed term elections in the last 10 years! Truely effective!
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 24th March 2021, 06:36 PM
Salmond taking the government to court again, can he just f*** off.
Posted by: Quarantilas 24th March 2021, 07:27 PM
Honestly furious. He needs to f*** off.
Significantly he said he accepted both reports which means he’s now backtracked on the claim he made that Sturgeon had defo broken the code but that won’t be as widely or as prominently reported as the initial quote.
At this point I’m not sure id be surprised if it was confirmed he’d joined the Tory party
Posted by: Calum 24th March 2021, 07:59 PM
Why's he taking them to court now?
Posted by: steve201 26th March 2021, 02:20 PM
Alex Salmond starting a new Scottish Independence Party ‘Alba’??
Posted by: Rooney 26th March 2021, 02:24 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 26 2021, 02:20 PM)
Alex Salmond starting a new Scottish Independence Party ‘Alba’??
I wonder how much the Scottish Tories are paying him
I don't think he is a Unionist and I suspect the party will fall flat on its arse. But in an election where SNP need a majority, this is surely going to do more harm than good if they field candidates in marginal/swing seats.
Posted by: Quarantilas 26th March 2021, 02:29 PM
Ah so *this* was his ulterior motive behind his charade to the cameras at the committee.
As I’ve said all along, there was something going on and his ego was raging that Sturgeon is going to be the one to do it and he has to insert himself into the conversation again because of course he does. We would be better off as a country if he just crawled into his little hole and stayed there for the duration of the election.
This split in the SNP between the more Centre Right Salmond headed branch and the Centre Left Sturgeon branch was always coming but could he not have waited until we actually *win* Indy first
Posted by: Dill Doe 26th March 2021, 02:35 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 26 2021, 02:29 PM)
Ah so *this* was his ulterior motive behind his charade to the cameras at the committee. As I’ve said all along, there was something going on and his ego was raging that Sturgeon is going to be the one to do it and he has to insert himself into the conversation again because of course he does. We would be better off as a country if he just crawled into his little hole and stayed there for the duration of the election. This split in the SNP between the more Centre Right Salmond headed branch and the Centre Left Sturgeon branch was always coming but could he not have waited until we actually *win* Indy first
Seeing as he causes all this furore when Scotland is very close to independence, then I wouldn't be surprised if he is a Farage. Farage wanted a protracted, impossible to negotiate EU brexshit battle to make money. It's possible that Salmond actually just wants to use the Scottish indie cause now for money, and the only way to get that is if it fails and the movement has to keep going. Either that or he has a massive ego, possible narcissistic disorder where he HAS to be the one to deliver indie to Scotland, ooor he's gettin unionist moolah. Any of those wouldn't surprise me now.
Posted by: Quarantilas 26th March 2021, 02:55 PM
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised either. I hope he fails spectacularly
Posted by: steve201 26th March 2021, 03:02 PM
He def being paid or caught by the balls by some establishmentarian group desperate to split the independence movement - has to be!
Isn’t Salmond meant to be from the left of the SNP?
Posted by: Dill Doe 26th March 2021, 03:42 PM
It could be, but the Farage-style perma-movement, with Farage basically crying when Bojo pushed through Brexshit and demanding a new referendum lol, is also a possibility.
Posted by: Harve 26th March 2021, 08:33 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 26 2021, 05:02 PM)
Isn’t Salmond meant to be from the left of the SNP?
No, not really. Any splits don't fit neatly on a left-right axis, although many dissenters have some form of socially conservative grievance.
Posted by: steve201 26th March 2021, 09:13 PM
He was part of the left wing 79 group following the loss of devolution in that year when the Labour government fell!
Posted by: Iz 💀 28th March 2021, 04:18 AM
2 Alba MPs now with Neale Hanvey and Kenny MacAskill. I guess lots of people are having fun seeing the indy cause fight but I'm seeing remarkably little about what Alba stands for aside from 'we're like the SNP, but not the SNP', is that really going to make an impact on the Scottish elections when they're only on lists?
Feels like Change uk and the Brexit party melded
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th March 2021, 07:57 AM
Neither of them are losses.
Alba is openly courting the SNP Terfs so in terms of cleaning up the party, things are actually going well. So far their pitch is „were transphobic and disagree that a section 30 order is the way to go“ but that’s ok because the Scottish Tories haven’t had an electoral platform for 5 years. All they can muster is „no more divisive referendums“ ironically the only truly divisive ref of the past decade was theirs....
Unlike CUK the AMS system actually gives them a chance to knock the LibDems into a humiliating 6th place (coming 6th in a 5 party system to a party that was founded 6 weeks before the election? I would die of embarrassment) mainly for two reasons. Salmond still has name recognition. The SNP weirdly seems to have leaked some votes to the Tories in the NE and as he is less openly pro-EU that Sturgeon is, he will pull some votes from there. The second is that unlike with CUK or Reform (who currently have a collection of loose skin sittin in Holyrood that I cannot wait to be free of come mid May) the media is practically falling over themselves to give them space and legitimise them. That will be enough for them to pick up votes. Question really is if they pick up enough votes to be helpful rather than hurtful. Too few votes and it’s SNP list seats they take instead of dirty Tory scum. So if the media really hypes them they will be f***ing themselves big time by reducing the number of Tories they inflict on us
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 28th March 2021, 08:33 AM
the snp are actually happy that Kenny MacAskill has stepped down, he's also refusing to resign too.
I really hope Alba get 0 seats and i fully expect that to happen.
Posted by: steve201 28th March 2021, 10:55 AM
I’m still convinced Salmond has been given a Bung to split the independence movement - all this doesn’t happen by conincidence and the establishment will do anything to prevent another vote.
So what does Alba stand of other than independence?
Posted by: Envoirment 28th March 2021, 02:41 PM
Could Alba funnel enough support to open up seats to the likes of labour/conservatives? I hope not.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 28th March 2021, 07:16 PM
QUOTE(Envoirment @ Mar 28 2021, 03:41 PM)
Could Alba funnel enough support to open up seats to the likes of labour/conservatives? I hope not.
From my understanding of the Scottish voting system, Alba are more likely to funnel support away from Labour/Tories/Greens due to the way the voting system works in Scotland. As the SNP are likely to hoover up a lot of the individual constituency votes in the election (which runs on the 1st past the post system), it makes it harder for the party to then pick up seats on the List system, which used the d'Hondt system, which first takes into account seats one in FPTP before starting its reallocation. Alba are only standing on the lists, which mean that they are less likely to split the vote in the part of the vote the SNP are likely to do incredibly well in, so voting for the SNP in the list system is somewhat of a waste, hence what Alba are intending to do by encouraging indie supporters to vote for them in the list to try to get more pro-Independence MSPs in Holyrood.
Also, having now educated myself on the Scottish electoral system, I must say it is a rather silly, nonsensical system, particularly its constituency/list split. I very much prefer the STV form of PR as per Stormont/the Dail.
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th March 2021, 07:49 PM
We’re all actually quite happy with our AMS system thanks x
If they take Green seats then they hurt our cause and I don’t really see the point of replacing blue unionist Tories with blue nationalist Tories personally
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th March 2021, 08:01 PM
AMS has its merits (although I prefer STV) but Alba's tactics highlight a significant flaw. It is, of course, the system we imposed on (West) Germany when we wrote their constitution.
Posted by: Smint 28th March 2021, 09:27 PM
Worst thing would be if Salmond's lot hold the balance of power for an Indy majority you know he'd just love that and his price to cooperate with Sturgeon would be astronomical to match his ego.
Posted by: Harve 28th March 2021, 09:44 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 26 2021, 11:13 PM)
He was part of the left wing 79 group following the loss of devolution in that year when the Labour government fell!
I mean over 40 years ago Claire Fox was a communist and George Galloway was on the hard left but that clearly has means little when they're both Tory-aligned today.
Posted by: Smint 28th March 2021, 09:51 PM
Melanie Phillips used to be left wing and write for the New Statesman before she turned out to be an Islamophobic facist.
Posted by: Dill Doe 28th March 2021, 09:57 PM
QUOTE(Harve @ Mar 28 2021, 10:44 PM)
I mean over 40 years ago Claire Fox was a communist and George Galloway was on the hard left but that clearly has means little when they're both Tory-aligned today.
George Galloway is now a Tory?! Jesus CHRIST!! He always looked like a bit of an arse, so a perfect fit for that party, but he was always left
Posted by: steve201 28th March 2021, 10:01 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Mar 28 2021, 08:49 PM)
We’re all actually quite happy with our AMS system thanks x If they take Green seats then they hurt our cause and I don’t really see the point of replacing blue unionist Tories with blue nationalist Tories personally
If Scotland does become independent there will inevitably be ‘blue nationalists’ it’s what happens!
Posted by: steve201 28th March 2021, 10:02 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Mar 28 2021, 10:57 PM)
George Galloway is now a Tory?! Jesus CHRIST!! He always looked like a bit of an arse, so a perfect fit for that party, but he was always left
Yeh he’s just hard left anti European, certainly not a Tory!
Posted by: Quarantilas 29th March 2021, 06:44 AM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 29 2021, 12:01 AM)
If Scotland does become independent there will inevitably be ‘blue nationalists’ it’s what happens!
Naturally. I just don’t see the point in any Tory regardless of their constitutional stance
Posted by: Herbs 29th March 2021, 07:00 AM
I would say yes - purely due to the Brexit vote. Scotland had a majority remain vote and IndyRef1 was quite close
That being said, it’s a catch 22 due to the person who wants to push for this campaign (if I’ve understood correctly)
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 29th March 2021, 11:32 AM
Salmon wants to put circumstances with sturgeon behind them and they can move forward.
I hate him so much, my second vote will go to greens
Posted by: Suedehead2 29th March 2021, 03:18 PM
According to one of yesterday's papers, Salmond has an even worse approval rating in Scotland than Johnson.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 29th March 2021, 04:21 PM
Salmond has a worse approval rating in Scotland than Silas !
Posted by: steve201 2nd April 2021, 11:12 PM
A good report on the Ch4 News about Alba plans to take some ‘constituency seats’ away from Unionist parties in the elections in May. He could take seats away from the Greens though? What do people make of this and the technical MSP voting system?
Posted by: Harve 3rd April 2021, 07:29 AM
QUOTE(steve201 @ Mar 29 2021, 12:02 AM)
Yeh he’s just hard left anti European, certainly not a Tory!
He's stated that he's voting Tory in May.
Posted by: Quarantilas 3rd April 2021, 09:38 AM
Blog by a UK Gov economic advisor on how Scotland would be a thriving independent nation....that was swiftly deleted after the pro-Indy National found it. UK Gov now appear to be controlling what should be an independent academia. The March on to a fascist state continues
Posted by: Dill Doe 3rd April 2021, 11:52 AM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Apr 3 2021, 10:38 AM)
Blog by a UK Gov economic advisor on how Scotland would be a thriving independent nation....that was swiftly deleted after the pro-Indy National found it. UK Gov now appear to be controlling what should be an independent academia. The March on to a fascist state continues
The government is in cahoots with the police, media, and now, apparently, controls independent academia. This is fascism.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 8th April 2021, 03:29 PM
Snp majority looking likely according to polls oft
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 8th April 2021, 03:29 PM
Still shocking that Tories are fav to beat labour too
Posted by: Dill Doe 8th April 2021, 03:30 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ Apr 8 2021, 04:29 PM)
Snp majority looking likely according to polls oft
If only Tory propaganda had such short-lived effect on the English, too We'd have a Coebyn government by now!
Posted by: steve201 8th April 2021, 06:54 PM
Greens pushing near to Labours seat numbers too!
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 8th April 2021, 06:55 PM
i actually really like the new labour leader in scotland tbh
I'm here for Greens and Snp to sweep
Posted by: steve201 8th April 2021, 07:18 PM
Yeh he seems a good choice! Still can be as good as you like but if the snp have taken your clothes it’s a lone voice in the wilderness.
Posted by: Harve 11th April 2021, 12:11 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ Apr 8 2021, 05:29 PM)
Snp majority looking likely according to polls oft
I'm still not very optimistic and I think the polling averages are going to hide lots of unionist tactical voting under the surface for the constituencies. The projection for an https://i1.wp.com/ballotbox.scot/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Projection-070421.png tends to show 10 or less non-SNP constituency wins, against 14 in 2016, but I'm not sure how realistic this is.
Ballot Box's http://ballotbox.scot/sp21-ballot-box-battlegrounds-8-5 are quite interesting. When you look more closely at SNP-held constituencies such as Perthshire South, you can see how the SNP vote can go up a few percent on 2016 (as polling averages show) but get overtaken by the Tories benefitting from the Lib Dem and Labour vote getting squeezed.
And I think unionist Labour and Lib Dem voters - as well as Tories in, say, Lib Dem-held Edinburgh Western - will find it quite easy to get behind the main unionist challenger in an election about the union. It was the SNP who actually benefited from Labour and Lib Dem voters tactically voting in 2019, but that was a Brexit and Tory-opposition election. Those differences don't matter as much anymore, but the SNP vs. Labour position on the union is much more significant.
With fewer constituencies won, the SNP's list votes will start to matter more, especially in the North East, Mid & Fife and South Scotland. And yet the SNP's list vote is looking pretty uninspiring. Without sweeping constituencies, the 2-3% that Alba draw from them could indeed hurt here.
I was too pessimistic at the SNP's hopes in 2019 so let's hope I am here too. There will be a pro-indy majority regardless but I think certain sections of the media will portray a very convincing SNP plurality as not being a mandate for a referendum.
Posted by: Dill Doe 28th April 2021, 01:19 PM
Right, so I was all for Scotland going its own way when the polls showed clear majorities, with the people getting ignored by Westminster. However, 1 million Scots live in the rest of the UK, and they are "fiercely unionist", but they are denied a vote. Meanwhile, all Europeans in Scotland at the time of the referendum can vote, regardless of how long they have been in the country. Surely this is unfair? How can the referendum be democratic if the one million in other parts of the UK don't get a say in it? This is also true r.e brexshit and elections and people outside of thr UK for ten years not being able to vote. Surely the 1 million Scots elsewhere need to be brough in for the decision to be wholly democratic?
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th April 2021, 04:04 PM
The non-UK Scottish diaspora runs to the tens of millions, do you want us to give them a vote too? This is a change that impacts the people who *live* in Scotland and should be taken by the people who *live* there. The Scottish diaspora in rUK won’t lose the right to live there, they’re still going to be British after this and will have the option to claim their dual British/Scottish nationality should they chose. But they don’t live in Scotland and independence doesn’t impact their daily lives. It gives them a new passport if they want it. No one has ever suggested that Scotland leaves the CTA so they won’t need to deal with a border crossing to drive north. So the diaspora will see no difference to their daily lives.
So in that context, how is it democratic for a diaspora to decide the future day to day running of a country they chose to leave and who’s day to day governance they are wholly unimpacted by. They’re not voting in holyrood elections. They weren’t consulted when creating Holyrood or Cardiff Bay.
Anyone over 16 who lives in Scotland can vote at Holyrood regardless of how long they’ve been in the Country. They pay taxes and are impacted by the decisions Holyrood makes. That is democracy at its finest. Defranchising People who Are most impacted in favour of people who aren’t is anti-democratic Tory nonsense. Noting that you’re currently siding with only the Tories on this issue......
Just say you’re now a unionist and move on. It’s shorter.
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th April 2021, 04:08 PM
I live in Germany. Why should I get a vote at Holyrood or my council election where I’m not impacted by the result? (I don’t for the record)
Westminster, yes because they have power over the implementation of the EU WA and the actions of the UK gov to EU citizens in UK has reciprocated impacts on UK citizens in the EU. Also they have power to negotiate with EU on improving our rights here
Posted by: Dill Doe 28th April 2021, 04:31 PM
I'm not a unionist, but surely the diaspora deserves to keep their right to vote, particularly in generational referenda? I think it should be like the USA, where you never lose the right. I say that about EVERYTHING, including Brexshit. I see it as disenfranchisement to strip the vote from anyone.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th April 2021, 04:55 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Apr 28 2021, 05:31 PM)
I'm not a unionist, but surely the diaspora deserves to keep their right to vote, particularly in generational referenda? I think it should be like the USA, where you never lose the right. I say that about EVERYTHING, including Brexshit. I see it as disenfranchisement to strip the vote from anyone.
It is, though, rather harder to define who is Scottish. At the risk of incurring the wrath of some people here, Scottish doesn't really exist as an official nationality any more than English does.
Posted by: steve201 28th April 2021, 05:07 PM
Yeh it would open up a whole can of worms!
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th April 2021, 06:11 PM
How long do you live in Scotland to acquire voting rights. What if you’re English born, live in Scotland for a decade then go back to England? Are you now able to vote in Scotland for the next 75 years? What about folks like me who were born on an overseas military base? Our nationality is declared at birth, mine is English, does that mean I can never vote in Scotland? Even tho I grew up there and lived there for over 25 of my 31 years?
It’s a ridiculous and unworkable idea. Which is why in 2014 The franchise was defined as those living in Scotland and eligible to vote at Holyrood. It’s easily definable. No reason to change the parameters of the vote, unless you’re a unionists terrified of democracy and losing access to Scotland’s natural resources
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th April 2021, 06:16 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 28 2021, 06:55 PM)
It is, though, rather harder to define who is Scottish. At the risk of incurring the wrath of some people here, Scottish doesn't really exist as an official nationality any more than English does.
I agree. While I take the „we’re aw jock Tamsons bairns“ approach to being Scottish, there’s no legal definition we can use
Posted by: Dill Doe 28th April 2021, 07:12 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Apr 28 2021, 06:11 PM)
How long do you live in Scotland to acquire voting rights. What if you’re English born, live in Scotland for a decade then go back to England? Are you now able to vote in Scotland for the next 75 years? What about folks like me who were born on an overseas military base? Our nationality is declared at birth, mine is English, does that mean I can never vote in Scotland? Even tho I grew up there and lived there for over 25 of my 31 years?
It’s a ridiculous and unworkable idea. Which is why in 2014 The franchise was defined as those living in Scotland and eligible to vote at Holyrood. It’s easily definable. No reason to change the parameters of the vote, unless you’re a unionists terrified of democracy and losing access to Scotland’s natural resources
That is a good point, but I actually know a couple who were just away from Scotland for a few years before goin back, and they're back now, and they couldn't vote. They didn't say which way, and I didn't ask, but I know it was unfair. Surely those who have been on the Scottish electoral roll at ANY point, regardless of time frame, deserve the vote? That will cover the diaspora. Again, I say this about EVERYTHING. Check. I said the same about UK immigrants in the EU being unable to vote in elections or the brexshit poll. If I now say, oh, only people in the country at the time deserve a vote, then I am being a hypocrite. This is how the USA does it. It never removes the franchise. And on the Union, Scottish independence is inevitable after disastrous Tory governments, brexshit, and 80% indie support among 34s and under. I'm arguing about the franchise - which the UK is terrible with - not against indie, which will happen. The Tories broke the country.
Oh, I know the Tories argue this - I saw it in a Tory paper, which made me think about possible disenfranchisement. The difference is I argue the point - eternal franchise (and a massive overhaul if the electoral system plus booting out Tory donors running postal votes) - consistently for everything, even when NOT in my favour. Tories are just being opportunistic, and they clearly don't believe in the eternal franchise, or it wouldn't tun out after 10 years of living abroad. If it's impossible to manage this for THIS referendum, and it sounds like it might be because of people moving around between England and Scotland, then it isn't an issue, but we really should enjoy the unwavering RIGHT to vote, regardless of location or time away. Local elections are different, which is why, when we were in the EU, we could vote in local elections wherever we were based at the time.
Posted by: Suedehead2 28th April 2021, 07:38 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Apr 28 2021, 08:12 PM)
That is a good point, but I actually know a couple who were just away from Scotland for a few years before goin back, and they're back now, and they couldn't vote. They didn't say which way, and I didn't ask, but I know it was unfair. Surely those who have been on the Scottish electoral roll at ANY point, regardless of time frame, deserve the vote? That will cover the diaspora. Again, I say this about EVERYTHING. Check. I said the same about UK immigrants in the EU being unable to vote in elections or the brexshit poll. If I now say, oh, only people in the country at the time deserve a vote, then I am being a hypocrite. This is how the USA does it. It never removes the franchise. And on the Union, Scottish independence is inevitable after disastrous Tory governments, brexshit, and 80% indie support among 34s and under. I'm arguing about the franchise - which the UK is terrible with - not against indie, which will happen. The Tories broke the country.
Oh, I know the Tories argue this - I saw it in a Tory paper, which made me think about possible disenfranchisement. The difference is I argue the point - eternal franchise (and a massive overhaul if the electoral system plus booting out Tory donors running postal votes) - consistently for everything, even when NOT in my favour. Tories are just being opportunistic, and they clearly don't believe in the eternal franchise, or it wouldn't tun out after 10 years of living abroad. If it's impossible to manage this for THIS referendum, and it sounds like it might be because of people moving around between England and Scotland, then it isn't an issue, but we really should enjoy the unwavering RIGHT to vote, regardless of location or time away. Local elections are different, which is why, when we were in the EU, we could vote in local elections wherever we were based at the time.
But that would mean someone of my age who had lived in Scotland for a year would get the vote. That makes no sense to me.
Posted by: Quarantilas 28th April 2021, 08:25 PM
This has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this website. Eternal franchise is a horrific idea. I don’t live in Salford anymore, why on earth should I have a vote for Salford City Council or the Greater Manchester Mayor? That’s insane. How on earth do I vote from Berlin in these elections? Proxy? Postal? Who is paying for all the extra counters needed? Wont people have 16391629 voting opportunities now? I was on the electoral register at 3 addresses in Salford, is that three votes? What about when I was registered in Dundee? Can I now vote in NE Fife, Dundee West and Salford Quays & Ordsall? Or only one? If one how do you chose which one?
I could go on And on. This is completely unworkable and illogical
Posted by: steve201 28th April 2021, 10:09 PM
Just do what they do in NI and register everyone in Milltown Cemetary to vote for SF!! ��
Posted by: Dill Doe 28th April 2021, 11:15 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ Apr 28 2021, 09:25 PM)
This has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this website. Eternal franchise is a horrific idea. I don’t live in Salford anymore, why on earth should I have a vote for Salford City Council or the Greater Manchester Mayor? That’s insane. How on earth do I vote from Berlin in these elections? Proxy? Postal? Who is paying for all the extra counters needed? Wont people have 16391629 voting opportunities now? I was on the electoral register at 3 addresses in Salford, is that three votes? What about when I was registered in Dundee? Can I now vote in NE Fife, Dundee West and Salford Quays & Ordsall? Or only one? If one how do you chose which one?
I could go on And on. This is completely unworkable and illogical
It relates ONLY to referenda and general elections, not local.
Posted by: Quarantilas 29th April 2021, 07:19 AM
Then where do I vote? I named three constituencies in that post. So which do I vote in? Do I vote in all three? Isn’t me having three votes anti-democratic? If I can only vote in one, how do you check that and police that? If I can only vote in one how don’t chose? And if I chose where I’m living now why should I have rights in perpetuity to vote in the other two? Where does this insanity stop? My parents are both from the City of Chester, do I get ancestoral voting rights there? I have a lot of family in North Wales, do I now get a vote in referenda in Wales regarding the assembly and Welsh independence?
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 29th April 2021, 07:24 AM
So Silas is actually English
Posted by: steve201 29th April 2021, 07:43 AM
Next you’ll be telling me he’s a unionist 😂
Posted by: Quarantilas 29th April 2021, 09:35 AM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ Apr 29 2021, 09:24 AM)
So Silas is actually English
Technically, owing to a quirk of the military birth certificate, yes
QUOTE(steve201 @ Apr 29 2021, 09:43 AM)
Next you’ll be telling me he’s a unionist 😂
I was once upon a time. My conversion has been fully documented in this forum! In 2014 before the ref my preference was DevoMax!!! I voted Yes but have become more and more swayed since.
Posted by: steve201 29th April 2021, 09:42 AM
Independence down to 41% it’s lowest since 2019!
Posted by: Smint 29th April 2021, 02:42 PM
I'm guessing though that if the SNP+Green+Alba get an overall majority then Sturgeon can say she has a mandate for calling a referendum at the time of her choosing. Post vaccine bounce will be a good time.
Posted by: Harve 30th April 2021, 06:41 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ Apr 28 2021, 09:12 PM)
That is a good point, but I actually know a couple who were just away from Scotland for a few years before goin back, and they're back now, and they couldn't vote.
If you live in Scotland, then you can vote (except in Westminster and UK-wide referenda which are rather restrictive). Holyrood famously has one of the https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/msps-give-scots-prisoners-foreign-21541343, with all kinds of migrants eligible to vote, I think that's something to be immensely proud of. Did they explain why they're weren't able to vote?
The question of voting eligibility isn't simple. In an ideal world, I think you should be able to vote where you live, but since I can't vote in France yet, I'm going to continue voting in Britain. While Scots law has always been separate, it's further complicated by devolution being new - the need to distinguish between English and Scottish people honestly wasn't too important a few generations ago - and by a legal definition of Scottish not really being established.
The French assembly has constituencies specifically for people who live abroad - and I even remember Macron and other candidates going to London to campaign to migrants living there - which slightly resolves the complications of someone voting over local issues in the town where they grew up when they live in Moscow or something.
Posted by: Doctor Blind 1st May 2021, 02:19 AM
Went so well for him in 2019 didn't it...
Posted by: Quarantilas 1st May 2021, 09:01 AM
Bring it on. The man has already shown a fundamental lack of understanding of Scots Law regarding constitutional matters
Posted by: Suedehead2 2nd May 2021, 10:01 PM
Interesting that the Scottish Tory leader has said that Johnson should resign if he is found to have broken the ministerial code. He seems to be trying to maintain as much distance from the lying blob of flesh as possible.
Posted by: steve201 2nd May 2021, 10:10 PM
Which makes me dislike Ross even more tbh!
Posted by: Quarantilas 2nd May 2021, 10:58 PM
When he is found to have broken it, Ross will mysteriously vanish for like a week to 10 days and then never actually call for Boris to go. He called for Sturgeons head before the independent report was back, but hasn’t ever said a word about Pritti the bully Patel.
The mans a spineless rat who lacks the Moral character for election to Holyrood.
And that’s before we even look at his record on minority rights. A homophobic bigot who should shown the red card from politics and football and the rest of his 528372929152910 jobs
Posted by: steve201 5th May 2021, 05:09 PM
Looks like the SNP will fall short of a majority given recent polls, probably because the tories have focused on the threat of another referendum.
Posted by: Quarantilas 5th May 2021, 05:16 PM
Depends what polls you look at. They’re all over the joint at the Moment. SNP on 62-70 seats in the past 7 days depending on the pollster.
Posted by: steve201 5th May 2021, 05:37 PM
Need 65 to win!
Posted by: Smint 5th May 2021, 06:33 PM
Are you adding the Green and Alba to SNP because that would mean an overall Independence majority in all polls. In fact just SNP and Green meaning the nutters arent needed hopefully.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 5th May 2021, 06:43 PM
i've still not received any information on how to vote
Posted by: steve201 5th May 2021, 06:47 PM
Will that mean you can’t vote?
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 5th May 2021, 06:53 PM
i've already registered in the past but not had anything through door for this vote
Posted by: Harve 5th May 2021, 07:28 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 5 2021, 07:37 PM)
Need 65 to win!
They need, like, 45 seats to win. I think somewhere along the way, expectations management have been wildly distorted where getting 55-65 seats - an extremely solid first place with a pro-independence majority - will be seen as a disappointment and not a mandate for a referendum. This is partly because unionist parties aren't even pretending to be capable of winning and are simply jostling for second place, with messaging revolving around 'denying an SNP majority'.
Posted by: Rooney 5th May 2021, 07:43 PM
Surely even if there is a pro-independence majority, the big question then comes is does Nicola start her economic strategy? As not convinced the SNP actually know what they want to do with the currency dilemma.
Posted by: steve201 5th May 2021, 09:21 PM
You would think these things have been discussed at party level for years in terms of learning the lessons of the last referendum. They will of course have all the establishment and media against them again. Let’s hope the Queen isn’t purring at the result this time.
Posted by: Rooney 5th May 2021, 09:42 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 5 2021, 10:21 PM)
You would think these things have been discussed at party level for years in terms of learning the lessons of the last referendum. They will of course have all the establishment and media against them again. Let’s hope the Queen isn’t purring at the result this time.
There are lots of options, but I am not sure they have a plan. They don't ever answer the question. Or if they did have a concrete plan, it is different to some of the other Pro-Indy parties. Anyway, my point is this is less appealing in the aftermath of Covid as it's not going to be cheap to recover and create a Central Bank in the interim before being accepted for the Euro.
Posted by: Quarantilas 5th May 2021, 09:53 PM
Currency question has been settled. Scotland will transition to its own currency but continue to use GBP in the immediate aftermath of independence for continuity and stability. Personally I’d argue for a Pound Scots to be set up for Indy day, using our current bank notes and coins (gradually updated to ones that are distinct from rUK) and pegged at 1:1 with GBP for the first 3-5 years of independence before being allowed to free float.
Posted by: Rooney 5th May 2021, 10:45 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ May 5 2021, 10:53 PM)
Currency question has been settled. Scotland will transition to its own currency but continue to use GBP in the immediate aftermath of independence for continuity and stability. Personally I’d argue for a Pound Scots to be set up for Indy day, using our current bank notes and coins (gradually updated to ones that are distinct from rUK) and pegged at 1:1 with GBP for the first 3-5 years of independence before being allowed to free float.
That would involve setting up a Central Bank though would it not? Problem with using sterling as currency surely means there is no local lender and any borrowing is going to create a massive defecit (of which I can imagine there would be a lot). You don't have the backup of any form of central bank to help and lend either. I agree setting up a new local currency is probably the only option but that in itself poses loads of questions on borrowing and interest rates. Btw I am not using this as a massive go at Scottish Indepence btw, just that I suspect you will find yourself in a very similar situation to Brexit when people are confused why their interest rates go through the roof.
I just find it interesting that the SNP don't have a clear answer that is formulated out with steps.
Posted by: Suedehead2 6th May 2021, 05:20 AM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ May 5 2021, 07:53 PM)
i've already registered in the past but not had anything through door for this vote
As long as you are registered, you can vote - even if you haven’t got a polling card.
Posted by: steve201 6th May 2021, 09:06 PM
ICYMI: our final Scottish parliament forecast - as polls close:
Lovely pro Indy majority there if that's true. Humiliation of "Great" Britain can begin.
Posted by: steve201 6th May 2021, 09:24 PM
Labours showing holding up well.
The Tories will jump at the fact they didn’t get a majority - let the arguements Begin!
Posted by: Smint 6th May 2021, 09:25 PM
But Green are pro Indy so thats fine.
Posted by: steve201 6th May 2021, 09:26 PM
But you know that’ll be their line of attack. So the Greena take one off the SNP and 4 off the tories according to this?!
Posted by: Smint 6th May 2021, 09:29 PM
But they can pass a resolution in Scottish parliament to ask for a referendum. Who ever votes for it doesn't matter. Johnson will be refusing the will of the people. That will gift more votes for the Indie parties so all good. Shows the desire to leave reactionary England is more than one individual.
Posted by: J00prstar 6th May 2021, 09:39 PM
Cmon Greens! First time I changed my vote in a few years
Posted by: Suedehead2 6th May 2021, 09:42 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 6 2021, 10:24 PM)
Labours showing holding up well.
The Tories will jump at the fact they didn’t get a majority - let the arguements Begin!
Of course they will. They will attempt to gloss over the fact that (if this poll is correct), the SNP will have failed to get a majority under a system specifically designed to minimise the chances of any party getting a majority.
Posted by: steve201 6th May 2021, 10:51 PM
QUOTE(Smint @ May 6 2021, 10:29 PM)
But they can pass a resolution in Scottish parliament to ask for a referendum. Who ever votes for it doesn't matter. Johnson will be refusing the will of the people. That will gift more votes for the Indie parties so all good. Shows the desire to leave reactionary England is more than one individual.
Agreed!
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 09:24 AM
A maintenance of the 2016 seat level would be a remarkable result after 3 terms/14years in power. It’s gonna be close and the result won’t be known until deep into Saturday.
Notable there is still no attempt to even contemplate any possible change in government. Even the noise from every unionist party today is about trying to cling on to the seats they have thanks to unionist tactical voting (my parents did this in our seat) rather than trying to deny that today Scotland woke up and will continue to wake up for the next 5 years to an SNP government
Posted by: Gezza 7th May 2021, 09:51 AM
My only gripe with this is if it is an exact rerun of the 2014 referendum in terms of voting eligibility then as a Scot living in England I would have no vote ultimately on my own nationality. I was born in Scotland and lived there until I was a kid and all of my family are Scottish so whatever way you cut it I'm Scottish but I have no say. I get from an administrative point of view it's easier to just to limit it to just those who currently live in Scotland but it doesn't sit right with me.
I suppose if it were a win for the SNP I could apply for joint nationality but they better make that application free haha.
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 10:08 AM
QUOTE(Gezza @ May 7 2021, 10:51 AM)
My only gripe with this is if it is an exact rerun of the 2014 referendum in terms of voting eligibility then as a Scot living in England I would have no vote ultimately on my own nationality. I was born in Scotland and lived there until I was a kid and all of my family are Scottish so whatever way you cut it I'm Scottish but I have no say. I get from an administrative point of view it's easier to just to limit it to just those who currently live in Scotland but it doesn't sit right with me.
I suppose if it were a win for the SNP I could apply for joint nationality but they better make that application free haha.
This is what I'm saying!! I really believe in an eternal frachise ... but I aldo want Scotland to break free of eternal Tory rule...
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 10:08 AM
QUOTE(Gezza @ May 7 2021, 10:51 AM)
My only gripe with this is if it is an exact rerun of the 2014 referendum in terms of voting eligibility then as a Scot living in England I would have no vote ultimately on my own nationality. I was born in Scotland and lived there until I was a kid and all of my family are Scottish so whatever way you cut it I'm Scottish but I have no say. I get from an administrative point of view it's easier to just to limit it to just those who currently live in Scotland but it doesn't sit right with me.
I suppose if it were a win for the SNP I could apply for joint nationality but they better make that application free haha.
This is what I'm saying!! I really believe in an eternal frachise ... but I also want Scotland to break free of eternal Tory rule...
Posted by: Smint 7th May 2021, 10:17 AM
Nah, if you choose to move away then you shouldn't get a vote on the country you left. Plus would you expect a vote on your new country? I used to live in London but moved to Bristol - I don't expect a vote for both cities.
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 10:23 AM
I am referring to national elections and referenda. Local votes change with where you are living. America and France both do not strip the franchise.
Posted by: Smint 7th May 2021, 10:29 AM
I don't think it's fair though as it greatly increases the power for people who can afford to live away. Why on earth should one get a vote for a country they don't live in anymore?
Posted by: Gezza 7th May 2021, 10:52 AM
QUOTE(Smint @ May 7 2021, 11:17 AM)
Nah, if you choose to move away then you shouldn't get a vote on the country you left. Plus would you expect a vote on your new country? I used to live in London but moved to Bristol - I don't expect a vote for both cities.
Not quite the same I'm afraid. I didn't move countries. I was entirely within Britain at all times (holidays permitting). Also it doesn't follow established rules, even if i moved abroad I would still be eligible to vote in UK elections.
Posted by: Gezza 7th May 2021, 11:11 AM
QUOTE(Smint @ May 7 2021, 11:17 AM)
Nah, if you choose to move away then you shouldn't get a vote on the country you left. Plus would you expect a vote on your new country? I used to live in London but moved to Bristol - I don't expect a vote for both cities.
Sorry I didn't respond to your second point. It would depend on what happened to my status post independence. If I became Scottish then I would expect a vote in Scotland. If I remained British then no I wouldn't expect one. My point is we aren't there yet and furthermore I have no say on the question on something which is fundamental to me and my identity, ultimately it would change anyway if that's what the majority wanted in a referendum and I may not agree with that but at least I've participated in my own fate.
Posted by: Suedehead2 7th May 2021, 12:13 PM
The Lib Dems have won Orkney in the day's first result from Scotland.
STOP THE COUNT.
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 12:14 PM
This argument is so f***ing dumb your own logic defeats your point. If you didn’t move countries, which is what you say, then you’d be voting on a local issue and thus not entitled to a vote. Even if you did move countries, you’re still not entitled to a vote. The 2014 Indy ref wasn’t open to Scots abroad. Only those resident within Scotland at the Time + members of the military or civil service ordinarily resident in Scotland that were overseas on duty at the time were able to vote.
Honestly bored of unionists trying to alter the franchise to stack it in their favour because they can’t offer even a base level positive case for continued union. Indyref2 should be a rerun of 2014 with the same franchise. That’s democratic. If you don’t like no havin a vote, then move back to Scotland. Otherwise, you made your bed and can lie in it. (He says quite pointedly from Germany and thus outwith the franchise for indyref2)
As far as nationality goes, page 273 of the Indy white paper from the 2014 ref states that anyone born in Scotland and/or habitually resident at time of Indy would automatically become Scottish. How that holds into indyref2 is unknown but i can’t imagine this is an area of the white paper that would deviate
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 12:16 PM
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 7 2021, 02:13 PM)
The Lib Dems have won Orkney in the day's first result from Scotland.
STOP THE COUNT.
In other news; water is wet!
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 12:16 PM
Why do you keep thinking me staying true to my belief in eternal franchise = unionist? I'm really, really not. I think you should get a vote in the referendum, regardless of whether you are abroad at the time or not.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 12:17 PM
At least SNP gained 4.8% in votes in comparison to last time votes in Orkney!
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 12:20 PM
Aberdeen Donside: SNP Tories increase 8% ��
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 12:23 PM
Also, had everyone already retained our democratic RIGHT, with one million UK immigrants in Europe, we could have run the EU non-binding opinion poll extremely close - so close, in fact, that Mad May and Blojo would have been seen as even MORE outrageously authoritarian for forcing us into Brexshit Totalitus on a wafer-thin non-binding vote.
Posted by: Suedehead2 7th May 2021, 12:25 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ May 7 2021, 01:16 PM)
In other news; water is wet!
I didn't claim it was a surprise
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 12:29 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ May 7 2021, 01:20 PM)
Aberdeen Donside: SNP Tories increase 8% ��
That’s awful if it’s like that across the board!
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 12:36 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 7 2021, 01:29 PM)
That’s awful if it’s like that across the board!
Aberdeen voted No. They are less pro-indy.
Posted by: Smint 7th May 2021, 12:39 PM
Did the other unionist parties decrease though?- I despite the Tories but could see them increasing at expense of Labour as long as Indy vote goes up (and I know it's only one result)
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 12:40 PM
Pretty surprising they have an SNP MSP I guess, I’ll be honest I haven’t analysed the previous election results like I normally do. They do say on bbc that there may be tactical unionist voting.
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 12:53 PM
Clydebank an interesting vote there SNP win/hold the seat but Labour gaining 10% while SNP on slightly down 2% but what will that mean for the other old industrial seats where the votes are a lot closer.
Posted by: Smint 7th May 2021, 01:02 PM
Is it going to be at all possible to extrapolate list results from constituency figures at this stage? Not sure how this all works in practice.
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 01:10 PM
QUOTE(Smint @ May 7 2021, 02:39 PM)
Did the other unionist parties decrease though?- I despite the Tories but could see them increasing at expense of Labour as long as Indy vote goes up (and I know it's only one result)
Yes and no. Turn out is up everywhere which is good, nearly all the seats with the lowest turnout last time went nationalist. So higher turnout could be from tactical unionist voting as much as it is about new voters and an increase in SNP support. It’s quite tough to tell.
In the Western Isles a party that took nearly 10% of the vote last time didn’t stand and their votes are redistributed mainly among unionist parties. Some of this is repeated over Scotland. In Aberdeen on pure vote count, the SNP candidate won more votes than any candidate has ever done in that seat before. Share of the vote is down but actual number of votes is up.
QUOTE(Smint @ May 7 2021, 03:02 PM)
Is it going to be at all possible to extrapolate list results from constituency figures at this stage? Not sure how this all works in practice.
Not really. No real idea of what the list vote looks like. The Clydebank one showing some tactical unionist voting will be tough to see how that then unfolds on the list.
Most regions are only counting half the seats today. List will probably not be known fully until Sunday
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 01:27 PM
Which other candidate won 10% last time in that Western Isles seat?
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 01:30 PM
Big tory target, big Tory fail.
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 7 2021, 03:27 PM)
Which other candidate won 10% last time in that Western Isles seat?
One of the phobics. Think it was Scottish Family Party. The vote will mainly have gone to the other homophobic c**ts in the race, the Tories.
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 01:40 PM
So is it looking good? Scotland is worlds apart from the rest of the UK, which is enjoying a slide into serfdom, doffing its cap to the landed elite.
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 01:56 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ May 7 2021, 02:30 PM)
Big tory target, big Tory fail. One of the phobics. Think it was Scottish Family Party. The vote will mainly have gone to the other homophobic c**ts in the race, the Tories.
They are an all encompassing right wing party!
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 01:56 PM
Im clinging in hope that the SNP give me some ray of light today by gaining a majority or a majority with the Greens....
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 01:59 PM
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ May 7 2021, 03:40 PM)
So is it looking good? Scotland is worlds apart from the rest of the UK, which is enjoying a slide into serfdom, doffing its cap to the landed elite.
Theres no doubt the SNP has a landslide victory. Honestly not much to draw from this so far. Vote up in Dundee West, Aberdeen Donside & Orkney is good. Stronger island showing should get us a seat on the H&I list. Majority and vote up in Perthshire north which was such a big target for the Tories they stood serial election loser (like worse than Farage) Murdo Fraser in the seat hoping his tour de farce at the Salmond inquest would get him elected - that was a good result for the SNP.
Unionist tactical voting in Clydebank a concern but honestly a lot of marginals to come. These were fairly safe seats. Especially the two islands, Dundee and Clydebank. Even in Aberdeen our vote was over 50%, Perthshire north just under at 49,5%
Think a good 24 hrs away from knowing if we can add 2 seats to hit the magic 65
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 02:02 PM
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 7 2021, 03:56 PM)
Im clinging in hope that the SNP give me some ray of light today by gaining a majority or a majority with the Greens....
An Indy majority at this point is a certainty. No way it fails. If we lose a few constituencies then we pick up on the list. We only took like 48 constituency seats in 2011 after all - and that would come at hands of unionists rather than greens. Greens should come out with at least 7-9 probably as high as 11.
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 02:03 PM
I was worried Sturgeon and then the tories were talking up a second ref too much and it would back fire because many who vote for the SNP wont neccessarily vote yes in a ref!
Posted by: steve201 7th May 2021, 02:07 PM
Wow Buchan seat declared with another SNP hold but a 10% swing from SNP - Tory, lucky to hold. But its the most pro brexit seat in Scotland.
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 02:18 PM
Its also a Tory seat at WM at the moment.
It’s a huge failure by Ross to capture it, because the WM seat is the only Tory seat in Scotland where the vote increased in 2019. Not that that is how it’ll be reported by the Tory press
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 02:33 PM
First regional numbers I’ve seen. Looks like Alba is an embarrassing failure. The NE is their primary target. They ain’t getting shit on those numbers.
Posted by: Smint 7th May 2021, 02:38 PM
SNP winning a majority will be impressive as there would have been a strong narrative of UK vaccine rollout better than a EU one.
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 02:39 PM
I still wonder if they weren't a right wing honeypot, fed Tory money, to try and siphon off SNP votes, like the Brexshit Party was built to hurt Labour.
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 03:02 PM
Tories seem to be gaining a lot which is a bit sad but i guess a lot of it will be tactical voting
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 03:09 PM
First SNP target to declare is an SNP Gain! Well done East Lothian!! Their first nationalist MSP.
How that impacts the overall numbers remains to be seen thanks to the list, but every little helps in terms to heading to 65 on the constituencies.
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 03:12 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ May 7 2021, 05:02 PM)
Tories seem to be gaining a lot which is a bit sad but i guess a lot of it will be tactical voting
Wouldn’t be too sad. Vote is up in Coatbridge which would have been a labour target and sign of any labour surge. The Lib Dems have been seen off in the far north as well with Sutherland/Caithness/Ross staying yellow.
And the big Boss is comfortably returned an all. Even with unionist tactical voting. The dirty Nazi who tried it on with Nic yesterday only to get telt got 46 votes. One for each of her IQ points, how cute
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 03:24 PM
god dammit shetlands
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 03:25 PM
alex salmond doing an impressive job so far
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 03:57 PM
That shetland was so close is a miracle. Remarkable work by the local team to turn Shetland into a 2026 battleground
National embarrassment Willie Rennie being sadly returned in NE Fife is no shock when you see the absolute collapse of the Tory vote in his favour. When I was growing up, you used to vote LibDem to keep the Tories out. Now they gladly vote together. Sickening.
Posted by: Brett-Butler 7th May 2021, 03:57 PM
The Liberal Party candidate in Glasgow is having a normal one, I see -
As I've noted before, the Liberal Party should not be confused with the Liberal Democrat Party, because ofc.
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 04:42 PM
The fascists really are climbing out of thr woodwork with this hard right government winning :/
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 04:44 PM
SNP TOOK AYR FROM TORIES
Posted by: Ho-Lee Smokes 7th May 2021, 04:44 PM
SNP TOOK AYR FROM TORIES
Posted by: Harve 7th May 2021, 04:53 PM
QUOTE(Ho-Lee Smokes @ May 7 2021, 05:24 PM)
god dammit shetlands
Will probably be the biggest swing to the SNP this election. Quite a spectacular result, especially after the by-election there in 2019 was relatively disappointing after the SNP leadership spent the whole summer campaigning for it.
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 05:02 PM
I cheered wildly at the news of Ayr! Great result.
QUOTE(Dill Doe @ May 7 2021, 06:42 PM)
The fascists really are climbing out of thr woodwork with this hard right government winning :/
That lot got like 106 votes. The convicted felon Britain First Nazi got 46 and laughed at when the vote was read out. Nae place for them in Scotland. Which remains the only part of GB never to have fallen under Farages spell
Posted by: Quarantilas 7th May 2021, 05:09 PM
STV reporting the Tories are conceding in rooth the mooths seat *chefs kiss*
Posted by: Dill Doe 7th May 2021, 05:11 PM
QUOTE(Quarantilas @ May 7 2021, 06:02 PM)
I cheered wildly at the news of Ayr! Great result. That lot got like 106 votes. The convicted felon Britain First Nazi got 46 and laughed at when the vote was read out. Nae place for them in Scotland. Which remains the only part of GB never to have fallen under Farages spell
Can you imagine them doing Nazi salutes, or anywhere really, in counting stations even just 10 years ago?
We have no free will over what we like, as that is decided for us - but by what?
Well they went to Sunderland on Friday so nearly there!!
