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 The lovely discussion of all things EU and/or Brexit, Part IV |
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 18th December 2018, 12:25 AM
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#661
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 Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,166 User: 5,138 
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Absolute joke May wants to wait until 14/1/19 to have the vote!
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18th December 2018, 06:23 AM
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#662
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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I hear that Tony Blair is calling for a 2nd referendum - perhaps we should have a 2nd go at the Chilcott inquiry too...
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18th December 2018, 08:18 AM
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#663
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 🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
Posts: 74,599 User: 11,746
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Tony Blair really needs to stay out of it. If he campaigns for a 2nd referendum, then it (almost) definitely won't happen.
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18th December 2018, 11:19 AM
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#664
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 17 2018, 06:24 AM)  Neither can they fly over us... Besides, if the EU were to act like this, motivated by petty spite, it would conform everything Brexiters claim about them! Its not "acting like this" its the uk being totally unprepared cos yknow LIARS MAKING PROMISES THEY CANT KEEP. Why do you think they have all bailed out and left May to take blame? Cos they lied and are trying to lie their way iut of taking the blame. Parliament is a mess because it was always going to be a mess when there is no clear cohesive achievable plan and you saying "its not up to me to fix it" is the same as johnson reesmogg davies and the other quitters saying the same pretending they have an answer when they dont. Nor does Corbyn, the only reality is yes to the deal or a referendum on not leaving or economic disaster. Any idiot can see that. |
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18th December 2018, 02:46 PM
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#665
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 18 2018, 11:19 AM) Parliament is a mess because it was always going to be a mess when there is no clear cohesive achievable plan and you saying "its not up to me to fix it" is the same as johnson reesmogg davies and the other quitters saying the same pretending they have an answer when they dont. Nor does Corbyn, the only reality is yes to the deal or a referendum on not leaving or economic disaster. Any idiot can see that. Question : Exactly *how* will another referendum 'fix it'? |
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18th December 2018, 07:42 PM
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#666
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,858 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 18 2018, 02:46 PM) Question : Exactly *how* will another referendum 'fix it'? We carry on as we did before the unholy mess and all bickering ends. We force mps to accept the deal and get in with years of trade deal sorting. The population accepts all the consequences and hardships from leaving with no deal and parliament works together to minimise the damage given those instructions. |
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18th December 2018, 10:47 PM
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#667
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,173 User: 7,561
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QUOTE Ministers are being told to prepare for a rise in suicide in the event of a chaotic no-deal Brexit, according to a leaked document seen by The Times. Officials say that in the event of Britain leaving the EU without a deal and on unfriendly terms, they must “create a strategy with other government departments — handling the negative impacts (eg homelessness, poverty and suicide).” This outcome is likely to cause unemployment and welfare spending to rise to levels last seen after the 2008-09 crash. The unemployment benefit bill could rise by almost £12 billion over three years. Quite remarkable that the government is even suggesting that No Deal is a possibility at this point- I accept that it is the default option but it really should be doing everything it can to prevent it IMO. |
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18th December 2018, 11:41 PM
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#668
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Dec 18 2018, 10:47 PM) Quite remarkable that the government is even suggesting that No Deal is a possibility at this point- I accept that it is the default option but it really should be doing everything it can to prevent it IMO. The plans for No Deal really are bonkers. We expect governments to prepare for unpredictable events such as a severe winter or a drought. We do not expect them to spend huge sums of money preparing for something they can prevent very easily. |
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18th December 2018, 11:46 PM
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#669
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 WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Dec 18 2018, 11:41 PM) The plans for No Deal really are bonkers. We expect governments to prepare for unpredictable events such as a severe winter or a drought. We do not expect them to spend huge sums of money preparing for something they can prevent very easily. This is my take too - what a complete and utter waste of public money. Part of me thinks this is a PR move to put pressure on MPs to back May’s deal. Everyone with sense knows No Deal is absolutely bonkers and there is no way it can go through. |
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19th December 2018, 06:19 AM
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#670
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 18 2018, 07:42 PM) We carry on as we did before the unholy mess and all bickering ends. Are you kidding me?!  Do you seriously think we Leavers will sit down and take it, given that you Remainers didn't? On a side issue, I doubt the EU would let us continue as if nothing had happened. Given their vindictive nature, they'd be looking to extract some serious concessions from us... |
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19th December 2018, 08:45 AM
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#671
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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Escalation of commitment is a helluva drug.
I believe however that the Leaver hardcore is much more of a minority than was apparent in the vote so it will end up similarly to before but without this issue taking away time from more important issues of government. Also, did you forget Vid, that the ECJ ruled that we could cancel Article 50 unilaterally, so with no permission from the EU needed? The EU will have no incentive to punish us if we stay in the club, it’s what they want. And this mess has been an excellent advertisement for the rest of their members to stay members. Poland or Hungary and most else making eurosceptic noises have gone very quiet, no one wants to embarrass themselves like Britain has now. Punishing Britain just wakes up the eurosceptics elsewhere. |
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19th December 2018, 10:48 AM
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#672
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Izzy Blizzard @ Dec 19 2018, 08:45 AM) Escalation of commitment is a helluva drug. I believe however that the Leaver hardcore is much more of a minority than was apparent in the vote so it will end up similarly to before but without this issue taking away time from more important issues of government. Also, did you forget Vid, that the ECJ ruled that we could cancel Article 50 unilaterally, so with no permission from the EU needed? The EU will have no incentive to punish us if we stay in the club, it’s what they want. But Leavers would have every incentive to punish politicians in those circumstances! QUOTE And this mess has been an excellent advertisement for the rest of their members to stay members. Poland or Hungary and most else making eurosceptic noises have gone very quiet, no one wants to embarrass themselves like Britain has now. Punishing Britain just wakes up the eurosceptics elsewhere. What a nice organisation the EU is - using intimidation as an incentive for Eurosceptics to keep quiet... 
This post has been edited by vidsanta: 19th December 2018, 10:49 AM |
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19th December 2018, 11:19 AM
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#673
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,858 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 19 2018, 06:19 AM) Are you kidding me?! Do you seriously think we Leavers will sit down and take it, given that you Remainers didn't? On a side issue, I doubt the EU would let us continue as if nothing had happened. Given their vindictive nature, they'd be looking to extract some serious concessions from us... This mess has nothing to do with remainers and we havent rioted in the street or done anything undemocratic. Just moaned about the lies, and you hve to put up with that just like we put up with brexit moanibg forDECADES. THE EU IS NOT VINDICTIVE. THEY HAVE OFFERED THE BEST DEAL THEY CAN WITHOUT DESTROYING THE CORNERSTONES OF THE EU AND DESTROYING THE EU ITSELF. I mean deluded much like all brexiters ignoring reality in favour of bitter lies and whatabouts when they caused the mess. No one else. They own it all. |
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19th December 2018, 11:27 AM
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#674
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,858 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 19 2018, 10:48 AM) But Leavers would have every incentive to punish politicians in those circumstances! What a nice organisation the EU is - using intimidation as an incentive for Eurosceptics to keep quiet... The reason both labour and tories are stuffed with the mess they have created is that both fear losing the leave voters if they back down. As long as both spout identical bullshit they can just blame voters in the referendum and remainers have no option but to keep voting the same party way. That underpins the whole selfish lot of em. Its nothing to do with the eu. Our governmwnt has agreed a deal with them. Neither party can admit its a shitshow disaster that even the ones who agreed the deal cant support it resigning like lemmings even when its they who failed to honour their promises. The eu has done what it said it would do and has never lied. Eurosceptics keeping quiet? Oxymoron! Theyve done nothing but whinge and badmouth the eu for decades. Including act illegally, lie, get rich iff slagging it off and creating chaos. |
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19th December 2018, 11:32 AM
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#675
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
I feel that the Leavers who wish for that to be the hill they die on are, again, a very vocal minority. If it is cancelled, the net political effect will be nil for the person who cancelled it (hero to remain, devil incarnate for leave, also let’s stop the black and white things it’s so tiring), and this form of political factionalism moves into the background somewhat f***ing finally. As before a Leave party will rise and continue campaigning with the occasional protest, not UKIP though, they are too far gone. Literally overthrowing the government is a fantasy. Calls for a third referendum are made occasionally, but no politician will run with it as a mandate for a long while. If Brexit goes through, similar story but flipped, and the worsening economic situation will hasten the calls for rejoining, some politician DOES run with it as a mandate and we rejoin the EU after a decade or two of instability.
The quickest way for this all to go away relatively speaking is the canceling. QUOTE(vidsanta @ Dec 19 2018, 10:48 AM) What a nice organisation the EU is - using intimidation as an incentive for Eurosceptics to keep quiet... Nah, we’ve done the intimidation ourselves. After seeing how much of a pig’s ear leaving is, eurosceptics aren’t looking to leave the EU, they’re doing the much more constructive ve thing of seeing how their issues with the org can be addressed from within. |
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19th December 2018, 09:02 PM
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#676
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,166 User: 5,138
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Great article on labour list today. What's more important democracy or economics?
https://labourlist.org/2018/12/labour-must-...her-referendum/ |
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19th December 2018, 10:42 PM
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#677
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,093 User: 3,474
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That’s a straw man argument.
A second vote is democracy in action, given the illegality of the leave campaigns conduct during the first EU referendum it would be undemokratisch to continue down this path |
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19th December 2018, 11:30 PM
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#678
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,166 User: 5,138
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I have to say I disagree I think it would cause more division than anything else.
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20th December 2018, 06:27 AM
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#679
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Dec 19 2018, 11:27 AM) The eu has done what it said it would do. So did a certain German leader between 1933-1945... QUOTE(Izzy Blizzard @ Dec 19 2018, 11:32 AM) I feel that the Leavers who wish for that to be the hill they die on are, again, a very vocal minority. If it is cancelled, the net political effect will be nil for the person who cancelled it (hero to remain, devil incarnate for leave, also let’s stop the black and white things it’s so tiring), and this form of political factionalism moves into the background somewhat f***ing finally. As before a Leave party will rise and continue campaigning with the occasional protest, not UKIP though, they are too far gone. Literally overthrowing the government is a fantasy. Calls for a third referendum are made occasionally, but no politician will run with it as a mandate for a long while. If Brexit goes through, similar story but flipped, and the worsening economic situation will hasten the calls for rejoining, some politician DOES run with it as a mandate and we rejoin the EU after a decade or two of instability. The quickest way for this all to go away relatively speaking is the canceling. I can assure you it will not - only 3rd world dictatorships cancel votes they don't like... |
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20th December 2018, 09:14 AM
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#680
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
...canceling through the mechanism of a referendum of course...
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