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> Joker, 4th October 2019
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Chez Wombat
post Oct 22 2019, 04:13 PM
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I've watched this now and I enjoyed it. I don't think it was perfect or a patch on the Dark Knight trilogy but I think they did the character some justice. He is a truly twisted and complex villain so he deserved something troubling and gruesome as his back story.

Did they humanise him too much? Maybe, and they were definitely a few too many 'misunderstood hero' cliches in there and making pretty much everyone around him an arsehole, and there are some potentially problematic views of mental illness in the film, but I think it's a very relevant topic to see the different ways how monsters are formed that is still relevant to today's society. It's disturbing that you almost feel like rooting for him at some points, but I felt that was the point, to make you question who you're actually rooting for and it certainly made you think differently about the Waynes parents, even if I was a bit confused about the timeline, and the ending as well, but I guess he's escaped multiple times?.

So all in all, not perfect but very good and I wouldn't begrudge it a few oscar nominations (especially Phoenix, have to disagree with a few comments here as I thought he was really good throughout, no Heath Ledger, but still).
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Tafty³³³
post Oct 23 2019, 05:46 AM
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I feel like the "humanising" of him was done entirely on purpose. I feel like it was all a story in his head. He doesn't see himself as the bad guy and no one else understands him.



Potentially killing his mother (hence why he's in Arkham?) and the most of the stories are in his head/he's read stories and planted himself in them, which he thinks he is the good guy in this, up until the point where he's killed the guy that "gave" him the gun - who denied giving it him in a phone call to his boss after being fired and said that Arthur had tried to buy it off him and pretty much and then just before he kills him Arthur says he's not been taking his meds and feels "much better now".

In fact maybe everything that happened after it's revealed that the woman he was with (and potentially killed her and her daughter?) Wasn't actually his girlfriend was all real? I feel like he killed them, his mother, that guy in his apartment and potentially Bruce's parents with everything else all exaggerated in his head as he's speaking to the psychiatric nurse about it all and he's seen as the hero in his head etc..

There's just so much to unravel and think about. I wished they'd explored the mob mentality side of things more because my friend (who works in psychology) says that that does actually happen.

When we first see him talking to the psychiatrist the time is 11:11 and she asks him "do you understand why you're here?" To which the scene then cuts to the one of him banging his head on the door in the asylum at exactly the same time.

Edit: sorry if this don't make sense aha. I'm rubbish at explaining things lmao.
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Chez Wombat
post Oct 23 2019, 10:43 AM
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I didn't buy that theory at first as it felt like a copout, but the more I've been thinking about it, it does make a lot more sense that a lot of it is in his head. I'm not sure about all of it being imagined because in the flashback to the asylum scene, you see a clip of Bruce with his dead parents, so he must be somehow aware of that/him to imagine it. So I'm sure the clown riots actually happened as well as a few other scenes in the film

I think definitely some scenes are in his head, most likely all the parts where he's well thought of by people, worshipped and dancing on the car, as he clearly wants people to notice him but he doesn't get that, like the fantasy of his girlfriend or the first talk show scene. He may have just been arrested after shooting Murray as we see he is jumped (or he could well have died in that crash, it was never stated that he was the main Joker, he could've just inspired him), I feel the Murray scene could be real as he was only brought on to be laughed at, I have the most doubts about him meeting Thomas Wayne for the first time, as how the hell would he bypass all that security so easily and what are the chances of running into him?! laugh.gif

We'll never know entirely, but that's good as it definitely fits the Joker character having a 'multiple choice' back story, I certainly hope there's no sequel to ruin it!



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Popchartfreak
post Oct 28 2019, 07:12 PM
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Dark and sombre and throughly depressing movie. No doubt Phoenix is an Oscar-nominee cert, he IS the movie. The comics never filled in the background of The Joker, so this version takes quite a few liberties with established lore around The Batman - though if you see it as semi-delusional and not necessarily an accurate version of events it makes more sense.

Did I enjoy it? No. Was it a good film? Yes, but it seems a lot longer than it is. I wouldn't choose to sit through it again. All the bloody constant running and endless smoking is enough reason not to bother! As a wishy-washy liberal, I do agree that ignoring the plight of, and alienating, poor people is not just evil it makes for an unstable society which only makes matters worse for everyone, and we see examples of people rioting and taking to the streets all the time, now and in the past. The comedy of this situation is dark, very dark - The Joker is a mentally-disturbed serial killer who finds his only joy in life is chaos. The joke is on the sheep who are inspired by him unable to differentiate between someone who is trying to make things better and someone who is deliberately making things worse. There are no excuses, only self-delusion.

Sounds very familiar in 2019....
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DalekTurret32
post Nov 9 2019, 09:18 PM
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This was an amazing film. It adds a heart-wrenching sense of depth into the character of the Joker, by giving him a well-elaborated backstory, as well as establishing a dark incarnation of the DC supervillain, like with Heath Ledger's portrayal in The Dark Knight. I also really liked the way it tackled the broken society of Gotham. The part where Arthur Fleck (Joker) is on a talk show hosted by Murray Franklin and him being so broken from the state of society that he ends up killing his own idol is a really shocking scene, and it leads to a hugely dramatic ending (along with a recreation of the Thomas and Martha murder scene).
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roman
post Nov 18 2019, 09:04 PM
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i Loved this movie and i think Joaquin Phoenix will win the award of oscar next year!
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