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 Do you prefer adversarial or cooperative politics? |
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 27th February 2018, 08:11 PM
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#21
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376 
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 27 2018, 03:02 PM)  Maybe that's true, but you only *hear* about it being done by one side. Must I quote Voltaire again?  For me, there's no incompatibility between condemning the actions they advocate, while accepting their right to say them. No, YOU only hear one side of it. As Suedey says, when you are involved in sane sources you see where the real demented people are, and they are far more often far right. Left-wing people dont as a rule murder politicians, advocate slavery and genocide, try to remove the vote from people and lie incessantly about everything. SOME lefties have intolerant attitudes or their own pet peeves which dont justify it - being liberal is not a heinous crime for a start, nor is being Jewish, a woman, or gay - but when you hear of a shooter having just murdered a bunch of schoolchildren you just KNOW he's going to be right-wing (and it's always a he, and invariably a white he). Facts you choose to ignore, as you always choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit your world-view. Voltaire. Quote Solitaire if you like. You can't fight for people's right to be allowed to say anything and then whinge about a selective few who you don't agree with while ignoring those that are truly truly pernicious. That's being hypocritical. |
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28th February 2018, 07:35 AM
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#22
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 27 2018, 06:58 PM) I suggest you branch out a little on social media. Just try looking at some of the things said about Dianne Abbott. At least the likes of Boris Johnson tend to be attacked for their opinions rather than their appearance. You're not seriously suggesting that any gaffes she makes should be ignored, because drawing attention to them would be racist?  QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Feb 27 2018, 07:06 PM) You only hear about one side because the mail only choses to report one side. How did I guess that you'd say something like that?  QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Feb 27 2018, 08:11 PM) No, YOU only hear one side of it. You too.  QUOTE As Suedey says, when you are involved in sane sources you see where the real demented people are, and they are far more often far right. Left-wing people dont as a rule murder politicians, advocate slavery and genocide, try to remove the vote from people and lie incessantly about everything. I resent the implication that I think it's OK for someone to 'go postal', as long as they are *right-wing* loons! SOME lefties have intolerant attitudes or their own pet peeves which dont justify it - being liberal is not a heinous crime for a start, nor is being Jewish, a woman, or gay - but when you hear of a shooter having just murdered a bunch of schoolchildren you just KNOW he's going to be right-wing (and it's always a he, and invariably a white he). Facts you choose to ignore, as you always choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit your world-view.  Do you honestly think that mass shootings don't appall me as much as they do you? QUOTE Voltaire. Quote Solitaire if you like. You can't fight for people's right to be allowed to say anything and then whinge about a selective few who you don't agree with while ignoring those that are truly truly pernicious. That's being hypocritical. From the context, I assume you have specific examples in mind? If so, would you mind listing them? |
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28th February 2018, 01:00 PM
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#23
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 28 2018, 07:35 AM) You're not seriously suggesting that any gaffes she makes should be ignored, because drawing attention to them would be racist? How did I guess that you'd say something like that? You too. I resent the implication that I think it's OK for someone to 'go postal', as long as they are *right-wing* loons! Do you honestly think that mass shootings don't appall me as much as they do you? From the context, I assume you have specific examples in mind? If so, would you mind listing them? 1. Nobody suggested that. 2. Because it's true. 3. I read widely and see what is being said widely, yuo admit you don't. Why are you surprised we pick up on that and comment accordingly? 4. There is no implication. I'm just stating facts so you stop making blase vague anti-left statements with no basis to them. Not calling you anything or saying you support or are involved in anything like it. Thought that was fairly clear, but if not, happy to confirm that here. That you choose not to publicly condemn all the many right-wing cases of injustice is a matter for you, but it undermines your credibility as a fair-minded observer of reality. 5. I'm not going to start repeating heinous twitter users and give them more publicity on here, but they exist if you want to go and search for them. Alternatively just follow Donald Trump, he has an endless supply of hateful, racist, callous lies on a daily basis. If you mean an example of you being selective, just read through your recent posts and then read through everyone's response to them. You do a lot of digs for trivial stuff, but don't post topics like: Is it right for the Ku Klux Klan to want all black people dead or enslaved? Obviously it would be a very short thread and pointless (the answer is No, no discussion required) and I've taken an extreme example, but you have a habit of not condemning far right actions. What one doesn't say sheds light on what one does say, and if people make assumptions you dont care for it's very easy to correct those wrong impressions with a single sentence amongst the many you type each day. Not difficult, and nothing to be ashamed of - except you seem to think it undermines your other arguments (which it doesn't, it strengthens them) to condemn a far-right loon for some views because he or she may also hold other views you agree with. It doesn't work like that.... |
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28th February 2018, 01:17 PM
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#24
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,419 User: 12,929                |
Agreed with everything you say John.
This statement of vid's, that it is only the left who instigate 'online trials', as if that means anything and right print and news media don't instigate their own far more dangerous and damning trials on a weekly basis, might have had a slim chance of making a point a few years ago. But not now. Twitter, some subreddits, 4chan, virtually anywhere where Trump supporters, Brexit supporters and anywhere else hang out in droves is filled with attacks on the 'unreasonable left' and laughing at the stupidity of 'liberals' (again forgetting that liberal generally means a much more centrist view than what they think). If anything it's the left who DON'T currently have the power to limit the spectrum of discussion. |
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28th February 2018, 03:05 PM
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#25
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Feb 28 2018, 01:00 PM) 1. Nobody suggested that. 2. Because it's true. 3. I read widely and see what is being said widely, yuo admit you don't. Why are you surprised we pick up on that and comment accordingly? 4. There is no implication. I'm just stating facts so you stop making blase vague anti-left statements with no basis to them. Not calling you anything or saying you support or are involved in anything like it. Thought that was fairly clear, but if not, happy to confirm that here. That you choose not to publicly condemn all the many right-wing cases of injustice is a matter for you, but it undermines your credibility as a fair-minded observer of reality. 5. I'm not going to start repeating heinous twitter users and give them more publicity on here, but they exist if you want to go and search for them. Alternatively just follow Donald Trump, he has an endless supply of hateful, racist, callous lies on a daily basis. If you mean an example of you being selective, just read through your recent posts and then read through everyone's response to them. You do a lot of digs for trivial stuff, but don't post topics like: Is it right for the Ku Klux Klan to want all black people dead or enslaved? Obviously it would be a very short thread and pointless (the answer is No, no discussion required) and I've taken an extreme example, but you have a habit of not condemning far right actions. What one doesn't say sheds light on what one does say, and if people make assumptions you dont care for it's very easy to correct those wrong impressions with a single sentence amongst the many you type each day. Not difficult, and nothing to be ashamed of - except you seem to think it undermines your other arguments (which it doesn't, it strengthens them) to condemn a far-right loon for some views because he or she may also hold other views you agree with. It doesn't work like that.... 1. Then how does one go about calling her out on gaffes *without* being accused of racism? 3. Yes, I mainly read the Mail, but you've surely seen me post URL's from the Guardian, and I read from other sources too - I just don't make an issue of them. It's that people automatically assume the worst of me unless I make a specific statement otherwise, that bugs me. I doubt anyone else here feels obliged to make such a statement every time they comment on a new issue, so why should that be required of me? |
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28th February 2018, 03:20 PM
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#26
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,670 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 28 2018, 03:05 PM) 1. Then how does one go about calling her out on gaffes *without* being accused of racism? 3. Yes, I mainly read the Mail, but you've surely seen me post URL's from the Guardian, and I read from other sources too - I just don't make an issue of them. It's that people automatically assume the worst of me unless I make a specific statement otherwise, that bugs me. I doubt anyone else here feels obliged to make such a statement every time they comment on a new issue, so why should that be required of me? If you actually read what I said, you will have noticed that I said that the likes of Johnson are criticised fro what they say and do. All too often, Dianne Abbott is not. She is frequently criticised for her appearance and not just her colour. As other threads here have made clear, her gaffes frequently get blown up out of all proortion while much bigger gaffes by other politicians are either ignored completely or laughed off. |
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28th February 2018, 03:34 PM
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#27
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 28 2018, 03:20 PM) If you actually read what I said, you will have noticed that I said that the likes of Johnson are criticised fro what they say and do. All too often, Dianne Abbott is not. She is frequently criticised for her appearance and not just her colour. But how often is that done by anyone other than far-right loonies on social media? Even the Mail wouldn't be as blatant as them! |
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28th February 2018, 04:03 PM
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#28
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,670 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 28 2018, 03:34 PM) But how often is that done by anyone other than far-right loonies on social media? Even the Mail wouldn't be as blatant as them! You said, and I quote "But only one side suffers 'trial by social media' when they voice their opinions.". I merely pointed out that your assertion was not true. I can also add that there are plenty of people on social media slamming Corbyn's latest EU speech. |
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28th February 2018, 04:38 PM
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#29
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 28 2018, 04:03 PM) You said, and I quote "But only one side suffers 'trial by social media' when they voice their opinions.". I merely pointed out that your assertion was not true. OK, you got me there - but I don't think it happens equally from both sides. |
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28th February 2018, 09:14 PM
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#30
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 28 2018, 03:05 PM) 1. Then how does one go about calling her out on gaffes *without* being accused of racism? 3. Yes, I mainly read the Mail, but you've surely seen me post URL's from the Guardian, and I read from other sources too - I just don't make an issue of them. It's that people automatically assume the worst of me unless I make a specific statement otherwise, that bugs me. I doubt anyone else here feels obliged to make such a statement every time they comment on a new issue, so why should that be required of me? Because on most issues most people make statements in support of/or against just because it's wrong or right, not because it toes a party-line. Whether you like it or not your views frequently end up supporting the rights of people who advocate evil and not taking the side of those who are the victims of it. We know your views on free speech, you don't ever need to voice it again. Instead you can take that we hear your viewpoint, don't agree with it, and instead get on with condemning the opinions and actions of those people and take it as read that you will always have the proviso that "I support their right to say it". |
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1st March 2018, 07:05 AM
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#31
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Feb 28 2018, 09:14 PM) Because on most issues most people make statements in support of/or against just because it's wrong or right, not because it toes a party-line. Whether you like it or not your views frequently end up supporting the rights of people who advocate evil and not taking the side of those who are the victims of it. We know your views on free speech, you don't ever need to voice it again. Instead you can take that we hear your viewpoint, don't agree with it, and instead get on with condemning the opinions and actions of those people and take it as read that you will always have the proviso that "I support their right to say it". I have repeatedly condemned the actions of those advocate evil, but my sincerity on this always seems to be questioned.  What is the point of repeatedly demanding my assurances on this, if you're not going to believe me when I give them?
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1st March 2018, 12:39 PM
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#32
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Mar 1 2018, 07:05 AM) I have repeatedly condemned the actions of those advocate evil, but my sincerity on this always seems to be questioned. What is the point of repeatedly demanding my assurances on this, if you're not going to believe me when I give them? I do believe you. Just say it. If anyone has problems with your sincerity it's trolling.... Now I DO have problems with politicians paid by the NRA (hundreds of thousands of pounds) professing "thoughts and prayers" every time there's a massacre because that is insincere politics when they have the power to do something about it. You aren't paid by the NRA so there's no reason to believe you would be insincere. |
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1st March 2018, 03:26 PM
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#33
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Mar 1 2018, 12:39 PM) I do believe you. Just say it. If anyone has problems with your sincerity it's trolling.... Why would I say something I don't believe? [quote]Now I DO have problems with politicians paid by the NRA (hundreds of thousands of pounds) professing "thoughts and prayers" every time there's a massacre because that is insincere politics when they have the power to do something about it. You aren't paid by the NRA so there's no reason to believe you would be insincere. [/quote} On a side issue, wouldn't it be more practical to start a specific thread about gun control, rather than have the issue spill out over several, as it has started to do? |
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1st March 2018, 08:35 PM
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#34
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Mar 1 2018, 03:26 PM) Why would I say something I don't believe? On a side issue, wouldn't it be more practical to start a specific thread about gun control, rather than have the issue spill out over several, as it has started to do? You are just being contradictory for the sake of it now. You moan you dont condemn violence etc because no-one takes you seriously.I say I support your sincerity and suddenly you claim that will mean you saying something you dont believe. That leads me to conclude your reading skills are very poor or else youve just been making excuses and you really don't care after all. I can't win. I take your side and you miss the point entirely. Gun control is the number issue in the USA, so yes, it belongs in the Trump thread. |
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2nd March 2018, 06:52 AM
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#35
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Mar 1 2018, 08:35 PM) You are just being contradictory for the sake of it now. You moan you dont condemn violence etc because no-one takes you seriously.I say I support your sincerity and suddenly you claim that will mean you saying something you dont believe. That leads me to conclude your reading skills are very poor or else youve just been making excuses and you really don't care after all. I can't win. I take your side and you miss the point entirely. Gun control is the number issue in the USA, so yes, it belongs in the Trump thread. I never *intend* to be contradictory - if I appear to be, it is purely accidental. |
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2nd March 2018, 10:40 AM
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#36
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Mar 2 2018, 06:52 AM) I never *intend* to be contradictory - if I appear to be, it is purely accidental. perhaps a self-awareness course would help? |
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3rd March 2018, 06:33 AM
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#37
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Mar 2 2018, 10:40 AM) perhaps a self-awareness course would help? I am already self-aware. |
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