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 Russia vs UK (Spies), 23 diplomats expelled |
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 Mar 15 2018, 12:48 PM
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#21
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,651 User: 3,272 
        
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Mar 15 2018, 10:38 AM)  Or : why did Corbyn himself seem defensive of the Russians in PMQ's? How should I know? I'm not Jeremy Corbyn. You could ask the same question of various (mostly Leave-supporting) people in the Tory party who have been less than willing to criticise Putin. Besides, what did he say that was "defensive of the Russians" rather than just trying to question the evidence? As I've said, questioning the PM is a major part of his job. There's a clue in the title. |
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Mar 15 2018, 01:29 PM
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#22
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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Or, words o support are just words. Trump has not implemented his own governments' instructions to bring in Russian sanctions so he's not going to do a thing for the UK. the idea is ludicrous. As for anyone else, still just words, we're leaving the EU, we have created our own Russian problem over the last 20 years getting into bed with them at every opportunity and turning a blind eye to corruption. Why on earth would other countries do anything concrete in support, other than a nice paragraph to quote in the right-wing press to make it seem like Britannia Rules.
One year from now nothing will have changed. Cynical me! Re Corbyn. Hiding behind demands to prove it was Russian nerve agents is effectively saying the Tories are liars and Russia might be telling the truth. That is wrong on so many levels and he can meet May to get briefed by the security forces if he needs enlightening. Once an apologist dick, always an apologist dick.... |
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Mar 16 2018, 08:57 AM
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#23
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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...and Corbyn proves he's an apologist if we had any doubt. Speaking as one who was also against the Iraq, Syria, and indeed Falklands War, and is able to claim just as much moral high ground, I have some questions:
1. Why do other countries feel the evidence is quite clear? 2. Why did Putin change the law in Russia making it legal to murder "traitors" abroad? 3. How did non-Russians get hold of Russian nerve gas? 4. If he doubts the British scientists skills then what exactly does he think caused the nerve agent reactions? 5. Why has Russia not protested and investigated the attempted murder of a Russian citizen who is NOT a spy? There is no law that says Russian citizens abroad are allowed to be murdered and the government not be bothered about it. Someone did it. Why are they not co-operating in trying to find out who tried to kill one of their own (Julia). 6. Why did Vlad The Impaler make recent statements to the Russian electorate that he would search out and kill former Russian "traitors" (as in anyone who stands up to his total control)? Why does Corbyn think was just electioneering, cos, you know, it's such a common theme in democracies? 7. Why are the FBI investigating interference and collaboration in American politics? Why is it most Western democracies think they have proof of meddling (hint: because they have proof of meddling)? 8. Why have there been 14 suspicious deaths in this country alone and dozens abroad of anyone who speaks up against Putin? Or are former spies? Or business enemies? 9. He's done it before. Or does Corbyn not accept the evidence against the 2006 murder which actually named the murderer who is now a Russian MP? 10. Why is Corbyn such a dick? PS if the point is to pardon Putin because mafia figures now run Russia and are able to obtain and control nerve agents, the end result is the same. Either Putin is guilty, or he's guilty of allowing the mafia to take control, and if they are in control of Russia then it's still a Russian government, just a mafia government. Apologist dick. |
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Mar 16 2018, 11:05 AM
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#24
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,651 User: 3,272
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As far as I am aware Corbyn has not denied Russian involvement. He accepts that that is the most likely explanation. He is perfectly entitled to ask for clarification and to do so in public. Of course some information has to be withheld just in case there is a trial, but that doesn't mean that next to nothing can be disclosed.
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Mar 16 2018, 01:39 PM
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#25
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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I agree he is entitled to ask for clarification, and it is his job. However, his logic is flawed. Presumably he was made aware early on of the reports that the nerve agents were placed in the suitcase of a Russian citizen prior to leaving Russia. The police officer came into contact with it at the home of the British spy. That leaves no doubt that it is a case of either:
1) Russian state attempted murder 2) Russian state incompetence in controlling substances that can be used for murder. If it's 2) then Russia has a duty to investigate the attempted murder of its own citizen and assist on the investigation not make blanket sarcastic denials. We are dealing with a criminal state out of control. Putin either is or isn't in control, but the Russian state is still responsible in either case, Corbyn is just splitting hairs. Or heirs as Putin appears to be irreplaceable without chaos resulting. End of the day, all they had to do was deny and then agree to co-operate in the investigation to find the truth. They didn't and haven't. |
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Mar 16 2018, 02:08 PM
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#26
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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Yes, I assume Corbyn has seen at least some of the information on Privy Council terms. However, he is still entitled to attempt to get as much of that information as is allowable into the public domain. It is surely better to do that by asking questions, and possibly getting told that it cannot be released for national security reasons or to avoid prejudicing any trial, than just to blurt it out himself?
As I've said before, don't you wish Charles Kennedy hadn't been alone in questioning the evidence on Iraq's supposed WMD? |
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Mar 16 2018, 05:00 PM
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#27
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 16 2018, 02:08 PM) Yes, I assume Corbyn has seen at least some of the information on Privy Council terms. However, he is still entitled to attempt to get as much of that information as is allowable into the public domain. It is surely better to do that by asking questions, and possibly getting told that it cannot be released for national security reasons or to avoid prejudicing any trial, than just to blurt it out himself? As I've said before, don't you wish Charles Kennedy hadn't been alone in questioning the evidence on Iraq's supposed WMD? Yes I agree it is better, and oh God yes I wish Kennedy hadn't been alone. the man was a hero and he was invariably right on most issues and a moral beacon of light in a shady cavern. Corbyn made a poor initial response in wording, and then made it worse trying to explain. America, though, didn't muck about (under Obama of course) once evidence of interfering in US affairs came to light and Russia denied. Expelling diplomats is usually the minimal response. Escalating it is another thing entirely when they can make us freeze over winter.... |
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Mar 18 2018, 11:20 AM
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#28
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 WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
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Mar 18 2018, 11:38 AM
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#29
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 18 2018, 11:20 AM) No it has no shame, it's engaged in Fake News warfare on an industrial scale in attempt to destabilise the West and its mutual co-operation. Good to see Shami & McDonnell more or less repeat what I said a week ago. Happy to help.... |
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Mar 18 2018, 11:39 AM
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#30
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,062 User: 3,474
  
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f***ing Jesus.
Honestly, f*** them. it's time to grow a pair and start seizing assets and deporting oligarchs. They'll seize enough empty property to house the still homeless residents of Grenfell tower and then all the other homeless people of London and still have some left over for a few grace and favour pads |
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Mar 18 2018, 01:49 PM
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#31
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,651 User: 3,272
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The Russians have simply made an allegation that is all but impossible to disprove. To some extent that just replicates what the UK has done. However, the timing of the Russian allegation will lead most people to conclude that it is rubbish.
Therefore, we are left where we were earlier this week. Russian involvement remains the most likely explanation but the chances of it ever getting as far as an English court are slim. If we ignore the possibility of a UK government-sponsored murder to boost May's popularity (which I hope we can), the only plausible motive for UK government involvement is that Skripal was about to reveal some embarrassing information. That isn't impossible, but it does seem unlikely - albeit not yet as unlikely as the Diana and September 11 conspiracy theories. |
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Mar 18 2018, 01:55 PM
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#32
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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I think it is definitely time to put a stop to Russian crooks laundering their money through the UK property market - if May is serious about taking sanctions against the Russian government then she needs to do this now; yes it would likely crash UK property prices but that would actually be a good thing for the housing crisis in this country!
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Mar 18 2018, 04:45 PM
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#33
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 22,001 User: 53
 
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This has been blown up out of all proportion. All over a traitor spy. It'll be forgotten in a month anyway.
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Mar 18 2018, 05:06 PM
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#34
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WINTER IS COMING
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 45,595 User: 88
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QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Mar 18 2018, 04:45 PM) This has been blown up out of all proportion. All over a traitor spy. It'll be forgotten in a month anyway. I don't think this case will ever be forgotten, plus I don't think it's been blown out of proportion at all. A nerve agent has been distributed to kill one possibly two people and has practically destroyed Salisbury City for the time being. It's a reckless act of state sponsored terrorism whether it was by Putin or the Russia Mafia. |
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Mar 18 2018, 05:17 PM
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#35
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,062 User: 3,474
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A chemical weapon was used by a foreign state on our soil in an indiscriminate attack. You can't blow that out of proportion. It is straight up a massive violation of international and British law.
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Mar 18 2018, 08:24 PM
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#36
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Mar 18 2018, 04:45 PM) This has been blown up out of all proportion. All over a traitor spy. It'll be forgotten in a month anyway. No. All over a BRITISH spy. People who work for the UK are not traitors to the UK or anyone else, only to the Russian government. James Bond getting killed by Rosa Kleb? "Serves him right the traitor!" Nah. You possibly wouldnt feel the same if you were in hospital in critical condition if you'd popped round to Zizzi's in Salisbury, say. |
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Mar 18 2018, 08:35 PM
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#37
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Mar 18 2018, 01:49 PM) The Russians have simply made an allegation that is all but impossible to disprove. To some extent that just replicates what the UK has done. However, the timing of the Russian allegation will lead most people to conclude that it is rubbish. Therefore, we are left where we were earlier this week. Russian involvement remains the most likely explanation but the chances of it ever getting as far as an English court are slim. If we ignore the possibility of a UK government-sponsored murder to boost May's popularity (which I hope we can), the only plausible motive for UK government involvement is that Skripal was about to reveal some embarrassing information. That isn't impossible, but it does seem unlikely - albeit not yet as unlikely as the Diana and September 11 conspiracy theories. Given the suspicious multiple deaths of Russians in the UK over the last few years, that have passed with police nonchalance, one would assume that rather a lot of them seem to have embarrassing information, just like all those involved in the papers showing links to trump have all mysteriously passed on. This isn't just one isolated death, so either the UK government is bumping off Russian allies all over the world in a brilliantly inventive mix of methods to avoid embarrassing information coming out (and much as I loathe the Tories and would love it to be true just to effectively kill them off and Brexit to boot it takes conspiracy theories to the limit and beyond) or the man who has announced he intends to kill them all has done it. How John sees it: Bloke who's been dumped by his girlfriend for another bloke: "I'm going to kill her and all past girlfriends and future girlfriends who dump me and tell the new bf's my secrets" Puts it on the internet and posters what he intends to do. Girl is found dead in her new boyfriends flat with a knife in her back with her old boyfriends name & address on it, hand-carved by the old Romeo, and his fingerprints all over it. Bloke: "It wasn't me, it's the new boyfriend trying to frame me by using an exact copy of my knife and planting my fingerprints on it. Fake news!" |
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Mar 18 2018, 08:51 PM
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#38
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,651 User: 3,272
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OTOH, if I knew that somebody had had several people bumped off and I wanted a similar person out of the way, I would try and find a way of doing so that would see the finger pointed at the person who had done this before. That, of course, doesn't mean I think that is likely in this case.
The reality is that we are never likely to know anywhere near the full story. The suggestions are that the substance was planted in Moscow, meaning that the person responsible didn't need to set foot in the UK. Naturally, conspiracy theorists will find that terribly convenient. BTW, people might remember that the investigation into Litvinenko's killing was abandoned "in the interests of international relations". The Home Secretary who made that decision was someone called Theresa May. Anyone know what happened to her? |
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Mar 19 2018, 08:38 AM
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#39
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,811 User: 17,376
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seems to be a running theme in her political career to shut off investigations that don't help Tories and their rich fiends....
(PS I hope she has crossed the line  )
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Mar 21 2018, 11:17 PM
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#40
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,651 User: 3,272
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So the latest development is that New Scientist magazine (about as respected as publications come) are casting doubt on the official line. Bear in mind that May's statement referred to a substance "of a type developed in Russia". That falls short of saying that it was actually developed in Russia.
Other questions raised elsewhere include the matter of how come none of the first responders seem to have been affected. There may, of course, be a perfectly good answer to that question so I don't see that as evidence of an anti-Russian conspiracy. However, it is reasonable to ask whether a Russian agent would have failed to do the job properly, i.e. make sure the target was killed. Evidence that it was a UK-sourced attack to discredit Russia without actually killing anyone? Probably not, but it does at least raise the possibility of a rogue former Russian agent being involved rather than a current one. |
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