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| What do you consider to be a 'flop'? |
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 Aug 24 2019, 12:25 AM
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#21
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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No such thing in recent times I’d argue. Or at least much less than before. Streaming helps that, songs can gain legacies completely unrelated to their chart performance now.
It’s also a lot more complex than chart positions, how it does in all countries is more relevant than a low peak in one, and overall streaming numbers are way more indicative. |
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Aug 24 2019, 06:34 AM
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#22
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
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A lot of the time it's hard to tell because of no shortage of blurred lines. The case that always comes to mind for me is how Taylor Swift's "reputation" was obviously nowhere near as successful as its predecessor and the singles ("Delicate" aside) all had anchors attached to their chart runs, but it was still the #1 album of 2018 on Billboard so how can you file it?
 I think the best metric can work with is when artists/labels sweep it under the rug, effectively acknowledging that the reception was more muted and/or negative than anticipated. Like pretending a genuine statement you made was a joke after the fact, the phrase 'promo single' can do a lot of leg work. |
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Aug 24 2019, 12:25 PM
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#23
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
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QUOTE(Dircadirca @ Aug 24 2019, 07:34 AM)  A lot of the time it's hard to tell because of no shortage of blurred lines. The case that always comes to mind for me is how Taylor Swift's "reputation" was obviously nowhere near as successful as its predecessor and the singles ("Delicate" aside) all had anchors attached to their chart runs, but it was still the #1 album of 2018 on Billboard so how can you file it? I think the best metric can work with is when artists/labels sweep it under the rug, effectively acknowledging that the reception was more muted and/or negative than anticipated. Like pretending a genuine statement you made was a joke after the fact, the phrase 'promo single' can do a lot of leg work. I’d still call Reputation a flop, for her. Because it came after 1989. The best way to judge if something is a flop is to compare it to the last release. Obviously I’d kill for Britney to sell that much lol but it’s a massive decline which is pretty much the definition of a flop This post has been edited by No Sleeep: Aug 24 2019, 12:27 PM |
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Aug 24 2019, 12:41 PM
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#24
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you never forget your first time...
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QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Aug 24 2019, 01:25 PM) I’d still call Reputation a flop, for her. Because it came after 1989. The best way to judge if something is a flop is to compare it to the last release. Obviously I’d kill for Britney to sell that much lol but it’s a massive decline which is pretty much the definition of a flop I think this is where the distinction between flop and underperformance is necessary. reputation was not a flop by any means - it was a platinum selling album in the UK and still sold 1m+ in week 1 alone in the US (a rare achievement in the first place that's become even rarer with album sales going down). It was a big album, just not as big as 1989 and therefore could be seen as an underperformance. |
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Aug 24 2019, 12:45 PM
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#25
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 🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
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in most cases I’d say top 40 but it depends, many non top 40s obviously aren’t flops and some that do briefly make it can’t really be called hits either.
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Aug 24 2019, 01:26 PM
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#26
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BuzzJack Gold Member
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QUOTE(JosephAvery @ Aug 24 2019, 01:41 PM) I think this is where the distinction between flop and underperformance is necessary. reputation was not a flop by any means - it was a platinum selling album in the UK and still sold 1m+ in week 1 alone in the US (a rare achievement in the first place that's become even rarer with album sales going down). It was a big album, just not as big as 1989 and therefore could be seen as an underperformance. I don't think there's much of a difference though. It was absolutely the worst case scenario following from 1989, just because it still sold 100000x more than 99% of artists ever will doesn't mean it wasn't a flop. Selling less than 50% of what your previous album sold has got to be a flop |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:37 PM
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#27
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
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QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Aug 24 2019, 02:26 PM) I don't think there's much of a difference though. It was absolutely the worst case scenario following from 1989, just because it still sold 100000x more than 99% of artists ever will doesn't mean it wasn't a flop. Selling less than 50% of what your previous album sold has got to be a flop I really don't agree with that, I think there is a huge difference between an under-performance and a flop. How can the second best selling album in the world and the 1st in America in 2017 be a flop? Its ridiculous to even try and sell it as such, okay it never sold as much as her previous but it still shifted massive units and made a tonne of money, so it under-performed compared to her last. This post has been edited by Dmdr: Aug 24 2019, 03:23 PM |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:41 PM
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#28
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BuzzJack Gold Member
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QUOTE(Dmdr @ Aug 24 2019, 02:37 PM) I really don't agree with that, I think there is a huge difference between an under-performance and a flop. How can a the second best selling album in the world and the 1st in America in 2017 be a flop? Its ridiculous to even try and sell it as such, okay it never sold as much as her previous but it still shifted massive units and made a tonne of money, so it under-performed compared to her last. It's a flop for Taylor Swift's standards which are incredibly high, what is so hard to understand about that? Just like Erotica and Bedtime Stories were flops for Madonna |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:42 PM
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#29
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you never forget your first time...
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QUOTE(Dmdr @ Aug 24 2019, 02:37 PM) I really don't agree with that, I think there is a huge difference between an under-performance and a flop. How can a the second best selling album in the world and the 1st in America in 2017 be a flop? Its ridiculous to even try and sell it as such, okay it never sold as much as her previous but it still shifted massive units and made a tonne of money, so it under-performed compared to her last. 100% agreed! It's also worth considering that albums as massive as 1989 are rare. It was her Teenage Dream moment, and even the biggest artists can't maintain their absolute peak stardom like that. Ed Sheeran's seeing a comedown from Divide with his current project, even Adele saw a comedown from 21 to 25 despite it still being absolutely massive! |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:48 PM
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#30
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
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QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Aug 24 2019, 02:41 PM) It's a flop for Taylor Swift's standards which are incredibly high, what is so hard to understand about that? Just like Erotica and Bedtime Stories were flops for Madonna No it under-performed for Taylor, it didn't flop. Another Leona example, sorry. Spirit - 3,000,000 -Huge seller but rare to sell so much. Echo - 750,000 - Under performed, more in line of what other big names sold. Glassheart - 90,000 - Flop Echo under-performed for Leona but still was a big seller and made a tonne of money, despite being out for only 6 weeks in 2009 it still was the 15th biggest seller in the UK. Glassheart flopped, it made a loss for the label. There is a difference. This post has been edited by Dmdr: Aug 24 2019, 01:49 PM |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:52 PM
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#31
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
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QUOTE(JosephAvery @ Aug 24 2019, 02:42 PM) 100% agreed! It's also worth considering that albums as massive as 1989 are rare. It was her Teenage Dream moment, and even the biggest artists can't maintain their absolute peak stardom like that. Ed Sheeran's seeing a comedown from Divide with his current project, even Adele saw a comedown from 21 to 25 despite it still being absolutely massive! And I agree the others underperformed but didn't flop, however Taylor didn't have any hit close to Hello or Dark Horse/Roar or I Don't Care with Reputation. LWYMMD debuted at #1 and disappeared. And I don't remember Adele or Katy selling less than 50% of Teenage Dream or 21. Taylor just kept building and building with every era so for her to release her lowest selling album ever after her biggest era ever... "underperformance" is a very kind word |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:52 PM
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#32
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
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QUOTE(Dmdr @ Aug 24 2019, 02:48 PM) No it under-performed for Taylor, it didn't flop. Another Leona example, sorry. Spirit - 3,000,000 -Huge seller but rare to sell so much. Echo - 750,000 - Under performed, more in line of what other big names sold. Glassheart - 90,000 - Flop Echo under-performed for Leona but still was a big seller and made a tonne of money, despite being out for only 6 weeks in 2009 it still was the 15th biggest seller in the UK. Glassheart flopped, it made a loss for the label. There is a difference. I'm pretty sure Echo was still labelled a flop at the time |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:58 PM
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#33
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 22 December 2009
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Based on this thread EVERYONE flops all the time as it seems there are only successes and flops on earth.
Wonder how anyone still has a record deal after all this flopping. This post has been edited by SKOB: Aug 24 2019, 01:59 PM |
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Aug 24 2019, 01:59 PM
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#34
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you never forget your first time...
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Joined: 19 April 2011 Posts: 121,537 User: 13,530
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QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Aug 24 2019, 02:52 PM) And I agree the others underperformed but didn't flop, however Taylor didn't have any hit close to Hello or Dark Horse/Roar or I Don't Care with Reputation. LWYMMD debuted at #1 and disappeared. And I don't remember Adele or Katy selling less than 50% of Teenage Dream or 21. Taylor just kept building and building with every era so for her to release her lowest selling album ever after her biggest era ever... "underperformance" is a very kind word Look What You Made Me Do has sold over 700k. It wasn't her biggest hit ever but it was perfectly substantial. ...Ready For It? was a top 10 hit too, and while it didn't crack the top 40, Delicate showed impressive longevity considering how late it was in quite a messily-handled campaign. "Flop" suggests it didn't connect with the wider public at all, when reputation obviously did. It's also not her lowest selling album ever - it's comfortably outsold the self-titled debut and Speak Now. reputation is a platinum album as I said before, one of the biggest albums of 2017, accompanied by a record-breaking global stadium tour. I wish the rest of my favourite artists would have flops on this scale! |
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Aug 24 2019, 02:08 PM
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#35
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BuzzJack Gold Member
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QUOTE(JosephAvery @ Aug 24 2019, 02:59 PM) Look What You Made Me Do has sold over 700k. It wasn't her biggest hit ever but it was perfectly substantial. ...Ready For It? was a top 10 hit too, and while it didn't crack the top 40, Delicate showed impressive longevity considering how late it was in quite a messily-handled campaign. "Flop" suggests it didn't connect with the wider public at all, when reputation obviously did. It's also not her lowest selling album ever - it's comfortably outsold the self-titled debut and Speak Now. reputation is a platinum album as I said before, one of the biggest albums of 2017, accompanied by a record-breaking global stadium tour. I wish the rest of my favourite artists would have flops on this scale! Actually no, it hasn't outsold her debut or Speak Now, Reputation's sales are just under 5 million. You're not getting my point  It was a HUGE decline from 1989, which is the definition of a flop to me. In this context, yes, a platinum album is a flop. To go from selling 10 million and having 5 massive multi-platinum hits to selling not even 5 million and barely being able to scrape the top 10 is a flop. Yes, it's possible to have the biggest album of the year and still flop IN THIS CONTEXT
This post has been edited by No Sleeep: Aug 24 2019, 02:09 PM |
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Aug 24 2019, 02:11 PM
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#36
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 22 December 2009
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Also
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Aug 24 2019, 02:14 PM
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#37
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
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QUOTE(SKOB @ Aug 24 2019, 03:11 PM) Also A frontloaded chart run of 1-1-3-4-9-12-14-20-24-51-OUT is atrocious for a 2017 hit. It didn't connect with the public at all, of course she has a huge fanbase and a big gimmicky video that made it so huge at the beginning but it only spent 10 weeks in the top 75 so obviously the hype wasn't enough to sustain it |
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Aug 24 2019, 02:18 PM
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#38
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you never forget your first time...
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Joined: 19 April 2011 Posts: 121,537 User: 13,530
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^ it's worth noting that it went to ACR when it fell 24-51 then dropped out prematurely as a result of the 3 track rule. It wasn't a great run anyway but it was by no means bad and it's managed some great sales long-term.
QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Aug 24 2019, 03:08 PM) Actually no, it hasn't outsold her debut or Speak Now, Reputation's sales are just under 5 million. You're not getting my point It was a HUGE decline from 1989, which is the definition of a flop to me. In this context, yes, a platinum album is a flop. To go from selling 10 million and having 5 massive multi-platinum hits to selling not even 5 million and barely being able to scrape the top 10 is a flop. Yes, it's possible to have the biggest album of the year and still flop IN THIS CONTEXTOh you meant in the US, I was talking UK, my apologies. I am getting your point though, and I think you're missing the big picture. It's really not as clear cut as what you're saying and I don't think the biggest album of the year could EVER be a flop. This is why it's important to distinguish between flop and underperformance. An example of a flop in my eyes: 365 by Zedd & Katy Perry. Two big names, a commercial song and it scraped the top 40 here and was lucky to make the Hot 100 at all in the US. It never picked up after that. When a tag like "flop" is applied to something like 365, it really doesn't belong anywhere near reputation, which was an "underperformance" compared to its previous album. |
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Aug 24 2019, 03:16 PM
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#39
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Break the tension
Joined: 7 March 2006
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For the record, I really think Joseph is right about this one.
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Aug 24 2019, 04:53 PM
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#40
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"Jayrusaleminians" - Umi.
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I agree that it's down to context, i.e. how big the artist is. Top 40 or even Top 100 can feel like a great achievement for some artists, whereas others missing the Top 10/20 can feel like a bit of an under-performance (I say under-performance rather than flop, because that word feels too strong nowadays). I think in the main a Top 40 position can be viewed as being at least "pretty good going" nowadays. There's a lot of things I miss about 90s/00s music, but one thing I don't miss is that charting at #6 could be considered as flopping (poor Victoria Beckham!), and most big artists missing the Top 10 was treated as being really underwhelming. For new artists it could even be disastrous/career ending(!)
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