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A-Levels & GCSE results

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Rooney View member profile	16th August 2020, 10:02 PM Post #21
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,603 User: 88	QUOTE(Dan17F1 @ Aug 16 2020, 10:24 PM) Obviously the government of England and Wales have both made huge mistakes, but I was thinking earlier, if they did end up following Scotland and using teacher predictions, whilst it would have been far more fair for the kids in Year 13 and 11 this year, will employers for those year groups not see that those grades and not look at them as closely as they have just been ‘inflated’ as such by teachers? Or do employers not look as closely as that at the grades? A genuine question because I don’t know what employers do Depends what sort of job you're looking at. I don't tend to take much notice of them, certainly when you get past your early twenties employers don't look at your academic background unless you're working in a STEM field. Good grades certainly open a lot more doors.


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 08:20 AM Post #22
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	QUOTE(Dan17F1 @ Aug 16 2020, 10:24 PM) Obviously the government of England and Wales have both made huge mistakes, but I was thinking earlier, if they did end up following Scotland and using teacher predictions, whilst it would have been far more fair for the kids in Year 13 and 11 this year, will employers for those year groups not see that those grades and not look at them as closely as they have just been ‘inflated’ as such by teachers? Or do employers not look as closely as that at the grades? A genuine question because I don’t know what employers do The vast majority of those taking A Levels go on to university therefore most employers would be looking for a degree over the A Levels. There are also other factors in getting a job that employers will be looking for in addition to grades so I don’t think it’s too big an issue. I expect the algorithm actually inflated some people’s grades anyway given what we know about it but we’re not hearing those stories because who would complain about that? The issue is that it hasn’t been fair how the grades have been allocated. This year group already had so much taken away from them, why would it be unfair to let them have their predicted grades?


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 10:06 AM Post #23
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	Northern Ireland have announced that they’re just going with teacher predictions on Thursday. Come on England and Wales, you can do this.


Iz 🌟 View member profile	17th August 2020, 01:37 PM Post #24
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,420 User: 12,929	And now Wales is using teacher predictions. England forever the worst as usual. (though it seems they're planning an announcement on it later today so fingers crossed they're just slow)


Rooney View member profile	17th August 2020, 02:01 PM Post #25
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,603 User: 88	QUOTE(Iz~ @ Aug 17 2020, 02:37 PM) And now Wales is using teacher predictions. England forever the worst as usual. (though it seems they're planning an announcement on it later today so fingers crossed they're just slow) I suspect England will change as well. There is way too much political pressure on them. It's not going to go away either with the GCSE results on Thursday, which I suspect would create an even bigger storm. I've come round to the idea of using teacher predicted grades. My reasoning why I was a little bit iffy was not because they would show disproportionately or anything against other years, it was more some teachers will 100% mark their students up to make themselves look good which is unfair against teachers and pupils who are actively following the process. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is any set standardisation? But whatever way you look at it, some people gain an unfair advantage over others. And logically I think this is the most fair process which doesn't stupidly harm pupils who have have had their predicted grades marked 2-3 grades lower. That is just plain wrong.


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 02:01 PM Post #26
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	QUOTE(Iz~ @ Aug 17 2020, 02:37 PM) And now Wales is using teacher predictions. England forever the worst as usual. (though it seems they're planning an announcement on it later today so fingers crossed they're just slow) Surely England will follow suit. They just can’t be that awful.


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:02 PM Post #27
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	And the same has now been announced for England too. Thank goodness. The students must never forget this shambles though.


Iz 🌟 View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:31 PM Post #28
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,420 User: 12,929	Good stuff, though I worry it may be too late for some people to get their university places...


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:35 PM Post #29
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	QUOTE(Iz~ @ Aug 17 2020, 04:31 PM) Good stuff, though I worry it may be too late for some people to get their university places... If it is then the government need to come up with some sort of compensation for those that miss out.


Rooney View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:43 PM Post #30
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,603 User: 88	QUOTE(Iz~ @ Aug 17 2020, 04:31 PM) Good stuff, though I worry it may be too late for some people to get their university places... That's the biggie here, I know a lot of Red Brick unis have closed places and clearing is closed as well. Really does seem unfortunate.


Steve201 View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:56 PM Post #31
Shakin Stevens Joined: 29 December 2007 Posts: 46,157 User: 5,138	Are the standardising the gcse results just of A-Levels too?


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 03:58 PM Post #32
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	QUOTE(Steve201 @ Aug 17 2020, 04:56 PM) Are the standardising the gcse results just of A-Levels too? Everything is now going to be on teacher predictions. The headache is now that universities have already filled their places based on Thursday’s results.


HausofKubrick View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:06 PM Post #33
⬛ Joined: 17 February 2011 Posts: 56,215 User: 13,007	The correct decision has been made! More than anything, it shows the great power that protesting and raising your voice can have. Those unsure about the BLM protests etc - this is the impact that having your say can have! Universities need to similarly re-approach their admissions now (I do not envy the admission teams right now!). QUOTE(Rooney @ Aug 17 2020, 03:01 PM) I've come round to the idea of using teacher predicted grades. My reasoning why I was a little bit iffy was not because they would show disproportionately or anything against other years, it was more some teachers will 100% mark their students up to make themselves look good which is unfair against teachers and pupils who are actively following the process. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is any set standardisation? But whatever way you look at it, some people gain an unfair advantage over others. And logically I think this is the most fair process which doesn't stupidly harm pupils who have have had their predicted grades marked 2-3 grades lower. That is just plain wrong. This is a legitimate concern, and I am not for a second ignoring it, but this viewpoint is also a damaging way of looking at our education system. We should have full faith in our teachers and schools and belief that they are doing the best for their children. No one knows the children's abilities more than their teachers, not their parents, the children themselves and certainly not the government so in the event of not being able to sit the exams (the best case scenario, obviously), the next best option has to be teacher judgement. Only they know how the rest of the academic year will have played out in terms of the teaching given, how children learn best and potential outcomes based on a range of factors such as SEND, prior progress, internal exams etc. Schools should have robust and reliable ways of standardising and monitoring their in-house assessment, and these should be scrutinised by OFSTED, outside agencies and senior leaders in schools, so if that is all happening in (the majority/most/I would like to think all) schools then teacher judgement is for sure trust-worthy. We need to trust our schools are doing the best they can for the children, and trust that senior leaders and other agencies are doing the best to ensure assessment is legit, because if not, what hope do we have for the future of education.


Andrew. View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:14 PM Post #34
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	The right decision, teacher grades aren't always perfect but no other option was fair or viable. As a pupil who has the privilege of going to a very good state school (I deffo wouldn't have got awarded B in Maths if I came from a deprived area, I only got 39% in the prelim/mocks) what is worrying some of us is that the huge increase in pass rate (in Higher its gone up by something like 14%) will increase competition for university places and jobs and potentially cause employers to disregard results from this year. In a normal year my Higher grades alone would probably be enough to get me into Uni, one of my friends the same age as me is starting next month but now the advanced Highers are more important than ever.


T Boy View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:20 PM Post #35
Radical Pink Troll Joined: 11 March 2006 Posts: 26,605 User: 177	Completely agree with Bal here. Though some teachers may have over predicted to make themselves look good, it was down to the school to moderate this. I can only speak for my school but the Senior Leadership Team cross checked all the results. I know that some subjects were told their results were unrealistically high and asked to adjust-this is before the algorithm even came into it. I was told by the Head that the results I submitted were very accurate but that I might want to think about raising a couple of the D grades I submitted to C grades. I like to believe that all schools would have given the same scrutiny to their grades before submitting. And again, I can speak only for myself, but as someone who teaches the entire year group for a subject that many students dislike, I wouldn’t want to boost the results because a lot of the kids don’t deserve to be boosted. I even gave out a very small number of U grades because the child’s effort was non existent (if you’ve ever been in a Welsh class in an English medium school, you’d get it). The fact is teachers need to be trusted. It can be a thankless job but to be slapped in the face with mistrust only makes it worse. Thankfully I’m contented with the fact that a lot of really good students of mine will be very pleased come Thursday.


Chez Wombat View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:23 PM Post #36
The owls are not what they seem Pronouns: He/him Joined: 11 July 2009 Posts: 37,130 User: 9,232	Definitely the right decision, I really can't believe they for one minute thought that an algorithm that takes into account school reputation and directly favouring richer private schools wouldn't get backlash! God knows what will happen with university places though and how they'll manage the admin with all this, this mess is far from over. Feeling so sorry for the young people amongst all this.


Oliver View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:33 PM Post #37
Buzzjack's Finest Alcoholic. Joined: 19 November 2011 Posts: 10,365 User: 15,367	QUOTE(Chez Wombat @ Aug 17 2020, 05:23 PM) Definitely the right decision, I really can't believe they for one minute thought that an algorithm that takes into account school reputation and directly favouring richer private schools wouldn't get backlash! God knows what will happen with university places though and how they'll manage the admin with all this, this mess is far from over. Feeling so sorry for the young people amongst all this. That’s my thoughts, what is happening with students who benefitted by other students having lower grades and have been offered places, are they going to be taken away to be given back to students who now have the grades necessary?


Rooney View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:42 PM Post #38
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,603 User: 88	QUOTE(Oliver @ Aug 17 2020, 05:33 PM) That’s my thoughts, what is happening with students who benefitted by other students having lower grades and have been offered places, are they going to be taken away to be given back to students who now have the grades necessary? Nope, sounds like all those who benefited from the algorithm are keeping their grades (even if they were higher than predicted by the teachers). Bit of a joke, but I also don't think you can take them away from the kids. At least the same mess won't happen with GCSEs, but it certainly causes a whole host of issues for students and Universities for this year and next.


Silas View member profile	17th August 2020, 04:44 PM Post #39
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,087 User: 3,474	They removed the cap on places that was being enforced by the Education Secretary as well. So that Unis can actually take on more students. The little known/reported side of admissions is that Unis are strictly capped on the number of domestic students that they can take a lot of the time. Scotland caps the number of SAAS funded places (aka free places) available each year for example. The capacity of the University is then reached by a mix of internationals and the demand ceiling for the course/availability of qualified people to teach the course


Suedehead2 View member profile	17th August 2020, 05:21 PM Post #40
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,675 User: 3,272	It's the right decision in the end, but yet another u-turn by the government. Nobody (or, at least, nobody reasonable) could have expected the government to get everything right in these extraordinary circumstances, but it would be nice of they did so at least once. I note the disgraced former defence secretary Gavin Williamson hasn't resigned yet but I'm sure the Scottish Tories will want to be consistent and will be calling for him to go. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of teachers would have been thoroughly professional when assigning grades. The only caveat is that I suspect they will generally have given the student the benefit of the doubt if they thought they were on the cusp of two grades. That would explain why the number of high grades is rather high. The algorithm, though, was an insult to teachers' professionalism. When you see stories of students being marked down from a predicted BBB to EEE, that is just ridiculous. The next problem will, of course, be university places with one major problem being what students will do for a year if their place is deferred until next year. Jobs will be hard to come by and the options for travelling are strictly limited. It will also have a knock-on effect next year if a lot of places are already filled.