Is religion relevant to the modern world?

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Is religion relevant to the modern world?

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vidcapper View member profile	6th September 2017, 06:37 AM Post #1
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792 Last year 53% of people described themselves as having "no religion", in a survey of 2,942 adults by the National Centre for Social Research. Among those aged between 18 and 25, the proportion was higher at 71%. The Bishop of Liverpool said God and the Church "remains relevant" and that saying "no religion was not the same as considered atheism". The figures, shown to BBC Radio 5 live, reveal a downward trend for religious belief in the UK. When the national centre's British Social Attitudes survey began in 1983, 31% of respondents said they had no religion. A random sample of adults were involved in the latest survey and they were asked whether they regarded themselves as belonging to a particular religion. Almost two in three 25 to 34 year olds said they were non-religious, while 75% of people aged 75 and over said they were religious. **************************** IMO it is less relevant than it has ever been - much of what used to be thought 'miraculous' can now be explained by science, and the idea of taking things on faith would not wash in any area other than religion. Also, many religious tenets, being thousands of years old, bear little resemblance to how we live today, and can even be counter-productive to living in a multi-cultural world. That's not to say religion has no place today, there just needs to be realism on how to practice it, mainly in terms of respecting laws of secular societies.


Brett-Butler View member profile	6th September 2017, 09:36 AM Post #2
Howdy, disco citizens Joined: 16 January 2010 Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455	Although as a practising Catholic I may be somewhat biased in answering this question, the answer to this is a definitive "Yes". Although at the moment the UK has more or less turned its back on religious belief, this is not the first time it has happened - despite the stereotype of people in the past being a pious lot, by early 1800s the amount of churchgoers in the UK plummeted. It wasn't until a major revival of faith that numbers started to rise again. Religious belief is something that goes in peaks and troughs through human history, so whilst at the moment it appears to be in a trough in the UK, I imagine that there will be some sort of upsurge within the next 30-40 years. And interestingly, on a global scale it looks like it is atheism and non-belief that is taking a hit, rather than belief. In Russia, the former atheistic state has completely turned around, with recent surveys suggesting the largest number of followers of religious belief since the time of the USSR (which has its own problems - I do have issues when a religion, even my own, finds itself too entwined with the government of a nation, like the Russian Orthodox is with the Russian government),the officially atheistic China has seen a massive surge in Christianity, even though joining a non-government sanctioned church is against the law there. I've seen numbers suggesting anywhere from 80-120 million followers, although given the secrecy surrounding being a Christian there, that number could be a lot more. I also expect that in the next 30 years we could see the stereotype of the typical priest being Irish changed to being Chinese, as due to the recently "relaxed" one-child policy in China, there are a lot more men then women of a certain age within China, and I imagine a lot of them are going to find their way into the priesthood, so look out for that in the future. And that is is before you consider the ongoing strength of Christianity in African nations. It would not surprise me if the next Pope is from Africa (my money's on Cardinal Sarah), and I firmly see the future of the church being in Africa, rather than the Anglo-European centric focus it's had for the last millennia. Religious belief still has a place in the world today. You just need to look for it, and most importantly, if you want to understand the world, you need to understand religion.


Envoirment View member profile	7th September 2017, 08:26 PM Post #3
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 21 November 2009 Posts: 8,553 User: 10,030	QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 6 2017, 10:36 AM) Religious belief is something that goes in peaks and troughs through human history, so whilst at the moment it appears to be in a trough in the UK, I imagine that there will be some sort of upsurge within the next 30-40 years. I can't really see an upsurge happening anytime soon in the UK. The more developed a country gets, the less religious it becomes generally speaking. I'd expect religious belief to continue to fall. QUOTE And interestingly, on a global scale it looks like it is atheism and non-belief that is taking a hit, rather than belief. Do you have any figures to back this up (as in figures to show atheism and non-belief falling)? From my understandning atheism and non-belief continues to grow. However predominantly Muslim and Christian countries in Africa and Asia have the highest fertility rates in the world. So their population increases are likely the reason for growth in Christianity and Islam outpacing growth in atheism & non=belief. QUOTE If you want to understand the world, you need to understand religion. I don't think that's true at all. If you replaced world with people, then yes I'd agree. To understand the world, science is the key and always has been, as has be proven countless times.


Baytree View member profile	7th September 2017, 08:48 PM Post #4
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 1 April 2006 Posts: 16,762 User: 334	I believe there is a central place for spirituality although the media and much of global politics are so negative and self obsessed. I think that traditional religions can be their own worst enemy by supposedly standing for inclusively while adhering to outdated rites and customs and whose members often shun others. I was baptised a Christian and joined the Church of Scotland of my own volition after I'd thought through what I really did believe in. I believe in the core message - love is greater than evil. I'm not a Marxist but I do believe in levelling the playing field, helping others on to the first rung of the ladder of opportunity and I respect others, no matter what race, religion, colour or nationality. I never cease to be amazed by the beauty of this world and feel my insignificance and yet feel closer to the universe, greater power, God...whatever. I also believe in the power of prayer and positivity.


Brett-Butler View member profile	7th September 2017, 08:55 PM Post #5
Howdy, disco citizens Joined: 16 January 2010 Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455	QUOTE(Envoirment @ Sep 7 2017, 09:26 PM) I can't really see an upsurge happening anytime soon in the UK. The more developed a country gets, the less religious it becomes generally speaking. I'd expect religious belief to continue to fall. That is not always the case - Russia & China being two big recent examples that would buck that trend. I do think there will be an upswing, although not in the short term, more likely in a few decades from now. (I seem to recall reading a recent survey showing that 18-24 year olds in the UK are slightly more religious than their 25-34 counterparts, but don't quote me on that, and it's might be within the margin of error anyway). QUOTE Do you have any figures to back this up (as in figures to show atheism and non-belief falling)? From my understandning atheism and non-belief continues to grow. However predominantly Muslim and Christian countries in Africa and Asia have the highest fertility rates in the world. So their population increases are likely the reason for growth in Christianity and Islam outpacing growth in atheism & non=belief. Here's a recent study from Pew suggesting that the amounts of unaffiliated (i.e not tied to a religion, which includes atheists, but not exclusively) is due to fall as a % of the population from 16% to 13% by 2050. Although it seems to suggest that raw numbers could increase, as a percentage it will fall quite significantly. QUOTE I don't think that's true at all. If you replaced world with people, then yes I'd agree. To understand the world, science is the key and always has been, as has be proven countless times. I don't judge science & religion to be mutually exclusive, and given that Christianity has been one of the largest catalysts for the expansion of science from the middle ages, neither does the Church.


Brett-Butler View member profile	7th September 2017, 09:02 PM Post #6
Howdy, disco citizens Joined: 16 January 2010 Posts: 12,775 User: 10,455	QUOTE(Baytree @ Sep 7 2017, 09:48 PM) I believe there is a central place for spirituality although the media and much of global politics are so negative and self obsessed. I think that traditional religions can be their own worst enemy by supposedly standing for inclusively while adhering to outdated rites and customs and whose members often shun others. I was baptised a Christian and joined the Church of Scotland of my own volition after I'd thought through what I really did believe in. I believe in the core message - love is greater than evil. I'm not a Marxist but I do believe in levelling the playing field, helping others on to the first rung of the ladder of opportunity and I respect others, no matter what race, religion, colour or nationality. I never cease to be amazed by the beauty of this world and feel my insignificance and yet feel closer to the universe, greater power, God...whatever. I also believe in the power of prayer and positivity. Out of interest, why did you decide that the Church of Scotland was the Christian denomination for you? I love hearing about how people who decide to come into Christianity (or come back into Christianity, in many cases) choose which church is right for you. And there's nothing "Marxist" about believing in helping to level the playing field, it's the backbone of Catholic social teaching and Christianity in general. Plus, Marx wasn't a big fan of the whole religion thing anyway.


Baytree View member profile	7th September 2017, 10:01 PM Post #7
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 1 April 2006 Posts: 16,762 User: 334	QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 7 2017, 10:02 PM) Out of interest, why did you decide that the Church of Scotland was the Christian denomination for you? I love hearing about how people who decide to come into Christianity (or come back into Christianity, in many cases) choose which church is right for you. And there's nothing "Marxist" about believing in helping to level the playing field, it's the backbone of Catholic social teaching and Christianity in general. Plus, Marx wasn't a big fan of the whole religion thing anyway. I was baptised as a baby in the Church of Scotland. I went to Sunday School there and also to little missions, Baptist and Methodist churches. In my early teens I wrestled with my doubts asking myself whether I was just pleasing family and friends. When I was sure of my faith, I worked out what kind of community I wanted to worship in. Tried the Church of the Good Shepherd (Anglican) and the aforementioned churches again. Preferred the stripped back simplicity and democracy of Presbyterianism and the Church of Scotland. Never considered Catholicism because of the Latin liturgy, although I had a Higher Latin at that time. I still dislike responses.


awardinary View member profile	7th September 2017, 10:10 PM Post #8
Here to play, here to stay Pronouns: he/him Joined: 8 February 2015 Posts: 20,238 User: 21,587	Some on here already know that I am also Christian, and I was baptised in 2003, at age 16, and by choice, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe in the Bible and try to live my life by what it says, and I attend weekly congregation meetings and engage in a form of public ministry to preach the message from the Bible. For more information visit jw.org. This post has been edited by ⓐⓦⓐⓡⓓⓘⓝⓐⓡⓨ: 7th September 2017, 10:10 PM


Qassändra View member profile	7th September 2017, 11:31 PM Post #9
DROTTNING! Joined: 15 April 2006 Posts: 63,953 User: 480	I take Attlee's line on this.


Andrew. View member profile	7th September 2017, 11:52 PM Post #10
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	QUOTE(ⓐⓦⓐⓡ^ @ Sep 7 2017, 11:10 PM) Some on here already know that I am also Christian, and I was baptised in 2003, at age 16, and by choice, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe in the Bible and try to live my life by what it says, and I attend weekly congregation meetings and engage in a form of public ministry to preach the message from the Bible. For more information visit jw.org. Hi, I just had a look at that website and it says that homosexuals or people with what they call 'same sex desires' should automatically kill those thoughts and instead change themselves with 'wholesome thoughts'. I'm just interested to hear your opinion on this?? When it comes to the topic, yes I do think so given a lot of people still trust in religion or turn to it, I've never been religious but I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of people on here who are on what it does for their life!


awardinary View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:08 AM Post #11
Here to play, here to stay Pronouns: he/him Joined: 8 February 2015 Posts: 20,238 User: 21,587	QUOTE(Andrew. @ Sep 8 2017, 12:52 AM) Hi, I just had a look at that website and it says that homosexuals or people with what they call 'same sex desires' should automatically kill those thoughts and instead change themselves with 'wholesome thoughts'. I'm just interested to hear your opinion on this?? Well not having had such feelings myself I can't attest to how difficult it must be for someone to do that, but I imagine not easy if it's something you've felt for a very long time. I don't know where it is you read it, and I'm not saying you didn't, but I'd be interested in seeing the context of what else was said on that matter as I can't personally say I know every single page on that site, I was merely sharing my religious beliefs with others as part of this thread. If you know me as a person by now then you'll know I've not made any bad remarks about anyone else's religion, race, gender, sexuality, ethnic origin or anything else, and I would never do that either.


Andrew. View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:12 AM Post #12
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	QUOTE(ⓐⓦⓐⓡ^ @ Sep 8 2017, 01:08 AM) Well not having had such feelings myself I can't attest to how difficult it must be for someone to do that, but I imagine not easy if it's something you've felt for a very long time. I don't know where it is you read it, and I'm not saying you didn't, but I'd be interested in seeing the context of what else was said on that matter as I can't personally say I know every single page on that site, I was merely sharing my religious beliefs with others as part of this thread. If you know me as a person by now then you'll know I've not made any bad remarks about anyone else's religion, race, gender, sexuality, ethnic origin or anything else, and I would never do that either. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/quest...-homosexuality/ Oh I know you haven't and I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all, attitudes to modern topics like abortion/sexuality in religion is something I'm weirdly interested in at the moment and as you're a religious person I was interested to hear your thoughts


awardinary View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:23 AM Post #13
Here to play, here to stay Pronouns: he/him Joined: 8 February 2015 Posts: 20,238 User: 21,587	QUOTE(Andrew. @ Sep 8 2017, 01:12 AM) https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/quest...-homosexuality/ Oh I know you haven't and I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all, attitudes to modern topics like abortion/sexuality in religion is something I'm weirdly interested in at the moment and as you're a religious person I was interested to hear your thoughts It's certainly thought-provoking isn't it. Do you think statistically there are more homosexuals today than ever before? I only ask as I wonder if culture or upbringing has much to do with it or if it is, as that article you shared, something someone is born with. I mean I really can't say as I don't know the answer, and have never felt homosexual urges as a person, but I can assure you I don't hate or dislike anyone who does feel that way, and that's the honest truth.


Andrew. View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:32 AM Post #14
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	QUOTE(ⓐⓦⓐⓡ^ @ Sep 8 2017, 01:23 AM) It's certainly thought-provoking isn't it. Do you think statistically there are more homosexuals today than ever before? I only ask as I wonder if culture or upbringing has much to do with it or if it is, as that article you shared, something someone is born with. I mean I really can't say as I don't know the answer, and have never felt homosexual urges as a person, but I can assure you I don't hate or dislike anyone who does feel that way, and that's the honest truth. I don't think so, honestly I think just as many people were born LGBTQIA+ in past decades/centuries but due to homophobia and intolerance and it being considered 'bad' to identify as LGBTQIA+ these people tried so hard to be straight and a lot are still pretending, and obviously conversion therapy has ruined people for life Obviously there are loads of people still in the closet in more tolerant countries like this one but not to the extent of before when you were literally given electric shocks if you were 'discovered'. Obviously there's work to do around the world and in parts of Africa/some other places you can literally be executed for loving someone of the same sex which f***ing terrifies me in 2017 but I live in a tolerant society which gives me some comfort at least I never thought you were!! I was just interested in your thoughts. (sorry for going so off topic there!!)


awardinary View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:38 AM Post #15
Here to play, here to stay Pronouns: he/him Joined: 8 February 2015 Posts: 20,238 User: 21,587	Yeah my fault, I guess I get a bit defensive expecting some backlash for my beliefs. I mean, I'm probably asking for trouble by talking about such a sensitive subject in a community like this one, so I'm just being very guarded thats all!


Liаm View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:50 AM Post #16
Brown cow, stunning! Joined: 7 December 2009 Posts: 67,174 User: 10,139	It's certainly not cultural, you just are gay, lesbian, trans whatever. Well put it this way you didt wake up one day and say "I'm going to be attracted to women" , you just were Plus it's more visible rather than more prevalent because you're actually "allowed" to be LGBTQ+now (in some cases, obviously sadly not everywhere), here for sure. 50 years ago you couldn't you'd just pretend to be straight so certainly the numbers will be higher now because of social acceptance not that there is more people like it.


vidcapper View member profile	8th September 2017, 05:29 AM Post #17
Paul Hyett Joined: 4 April 2006 Posts: 25,346 User: 364	QUOTE(ⓐⓦⓐⓡ^ @ Sep 8 2017, 01:23 AM) It's certainly thought-provoking isn't it. Do you think statistically there are more homosexuals today than ever before? I only ask as I wonder if culture or upbringing has much to do with it or if it is, as that article you shared, something someone is born with. I don't believe there are more now than ever before, it just seems that way because it's easier now to be open about it. Getting back to religion - the main problem is when factions use it selectively to pursue power, rather than enlightenment.


Popchartfreak View member profile	8th September 2017, 12:02 PM Post #18
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,821 User: 17,376	religion as a personal act of faith will never go out of fashion, and in that context as aspirations to try to achieve that's fine. People who follow specific religions and insist that everyone else should be beholding to those beliefs, because they said so, is not fine. Freedom of choice. Choosing to do acts of good is laudable. People using religion as an excuse to force others to follow their own agenda is very wrong. Some of my greatest friends are very religious, and are genuinely nice people, but I personally don't have the ability to believe in something that isn't provable and is contradicted by other religions, which is why I would form part of the Non-religious percentage - just logically speaking. That isn't to say that something as inexplicable as the vastness and complexity of the whole universe can be said to have been an accident, pure physics, or a deliberate creation, it's too wondrous to be certain for me.


Envoirment View member profile	8th September 2017, 05:14 PM Post #19
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 21 November 2009 Posts: 8,553 User: 10,030	QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Sep 7 2017, 09:55 PM) That is not always the case - Russia & China being two big recent examples that would buck that trend. I do think there will be an upswing, although not in the short term, more likely in a few decades from now. (I seem to recall reading a recent survey showing that 18-24 year olds in the UK are slightly more religious than their 25-34 counterparts, but don't quote me on that, and it's might be within the margin of error anyway). Russia and China are very different to the UK though, with limited freedom of expression and such. Both those countries have "relaxed" a little over the years and so it's not surprising people finally being able to pick up religion. QUOTE Here's a recent study from Pew suggesting that the amounts of unaffiliated (i.e not tied to a religion, which includes atheists, but not exclusively) is due to fall as a % of the population from 16% to 13% by 2050. Although it seems to suggest that raw numbers could increase, as a percentage it will fall quite significantly. Seems that it's like I said previously about birth rates/religious countries population growth outpacing the growth of non religion/atheists. It'll be interesting to see how things will change once many African and Asian nations become more developed. The upswing in them now may turn into a downswing as we get to the end of the century. QUOTE I don't judge science & religion to be mutually exclusive, and given that Christianity has been one of the largest catalysts for the expansion of science from the middle ages, neither does the Church. Neither do I. I still stand by my point of science is the way to understand the world and not religion. Personally, I'm not religious and am an atheist. I see religion as a way for people to give them purpose in life and comfort for when they die. I believe when we die, there's no after life. It's essentially a black out to never awake again. Any impact we've had will then slowly diminish over time (unless you achieve very big things during your life) until we're forgotton or the human race ceases to exist. A lot of people aren't comfortable with that line of thought. Religion will aways be relevant in some sense. If we were to eliminate every religion currently around, new ones would emerge. It's human nature in a way. It's something to be done in your own time and of your own accord. However, religion shouldn't be relevant in governing a country and it should be separate from the state. Many countries still have large religious influences on their laws, with negative consequences towards homosexuality, women's rights and likely more. I hope that one day that will change.


Liаm View member profile	8th September 2017, 06:20 PM Post #20
Brown cow, stunning! Joined: 7 December 2009 Posts: 67,174 User: 10,139	As for religion - it's important if you ant it to be. I think that's the best way tbh, I don't like it being pushed on kids at school or whatever, I think religious education should be compulsory n schools so that people understand and tolerate religion more and can come to their own conclusions (same with politics, but that's not for this thread) about what they feel and believe and waht fits them later in life. For me science is my way of understanding the world, but I am not religious. Religion for me cant explain things, but I can see that some people like the comfort it brings and some people do have religion as a tight fit with their morals and it would feel fitting and natural for them. I think as said religion will always be there as a personal choice, there are so many paths to follow in so many different ways and people can guide themselves down whichever one is right for them at a certain point in their life. Whereas with science there's just the one truth and because it's proven only really a nutcase can say it's wrong, like flat earth conspiracists But I would never say religion is wrong either, apart from if it gets homophobic or racist or whatever, because that clashes with everything I believe in. It's a different way of looking at the world with the values and set of morals that it gives you and the guidance it offered, no one religion could fit everyone.