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Posted by: Andr00w 19th September 2016, 06:51 PM

With a second independence referendum still very possible after the Brexit vote have your opinions changed since 2014?

This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and at the moment I just can't make my mind up After the Brexit result came in my gut reaction was to start supporting independence but all the issues from 2014 still exist along with the collapse in oil price.

Posted by: Andr00w 19th September 2016, 06:53 PM

Oops can someone edit the poll please? I've done it so you have to answer both questions

Posted by: Brett-Butler 19th September 2016, 07:25 PM

Fixed - added an N/A option in both.

Posted by: popchartfreak 19th September 2016, 07:49 PM

The referendum's being suggested are to do with the actual terms of the Brexit agreed, which is sensible, cos it gives total control to the Tories otherwise, with no MP votes at present permitted. Something so important needs confirmation. To assume that everyone who voted Leave holds the same views (even the 3 main Tory tits can't agree) is ridiculous or naive. I dont trust them one bit.

Posted by: Silas 19th September 2016, 09:01 PM

I'm still team Yes.

I'll pay more attention to the spending plans this time round as the Oil Price has reduced significantly, but as long as there is a strong set of nation building policies in there i'm happy to take on some debts in the early years. I also don't think the oil price will remain this low forever, the Arab states will at some point crack and reign in production to protect their finances (although if this issue brings down their cartel that'd be champion).

I've never been overly attached to currency, and actually wouldn't mind being obligated to adopt the Euro (Sweden are and just refuse to join the ERM which is the prerequisite for Euro adoption giving a de facto opt-out). The important thing for me is protecting my status as an EU citizen. I'm a huge fan of the 4 freedoms upon which the EU is founded, I think it makes life better for every European. Having that freedom of movement is important and I will do whatever I can to keep it.

The scaremongering about Spain vetoing our application is now a complete lie. The Spanish themselves have stopped making angry noises and are now sympathetic to our cause. Mainly because it's a very different set of circumstances to the succession of Catalonia as rUK is leaving the EU. The Germans support us because they want to show the EU is still strong and desirable. It also sends a shot across the bow of Eurosceptic nationalists that leaving the EU will break apart your country and cause irreparable damage.

Post EU-ref has really highlighted the differences between our nations. We have a plan, rUK don't. Hate crime has skyrocketed in rUK, no change in Scotland. (which is a minor f***ing miracle) The most startling thing about this is that the indy whitepaper was like 650 pages long and covered literally everything, and people tore it to bits. Not even 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the same level of scrutiny was aimed at the shitshow that was the Leave campaigns. EURef was a complete and utter farce from start to finish. Little England deserves the economic disaster that is coming it's way.

Posted by: Wizard's Sleeve 19th September 2016, 09:42 PM

Farce is the only word that can be applied to that nonsensical eU referendum. My god it should have been halted when an MP DIED over it and Nazi propaganda was unveiled.

Posted by: Harve 20th September 2016, 02:28 AM

Yes

Posted by: PeaceMob 20th September 2016, 10:52 AM

Posted by: Silas 20th September 2016, 03:00 PM

Thanks for that stunning response. Really. Just thanks. You've changed my life with just how life changing that response is

Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th September 2016, 07:22 PM

Even I'm PRO independence now - and could you annex any city in the UK that voted remain such as Exeter and London please? K thanks.

Posted by: popchartfreak 20th September 2016, 08:02 PM

Edinburgh looks kinda nice, wonder if there's any cheap flats...

Might be a nice castle going cheap in the next few years

Posted by: Suedehead2 20th September 2016, 08:19 PM

I looked at Edinburgh prices as soon as the EU referendum result was known. They are a bit on the high side compared with other Scottish cities

Posted by: popchartfreak 20th September 2016, 08:38 PM

Yeh as expected, ta, and doh! Wimbledon Martin's dad lives there near the sea, very picturesque. Mind you a poxy bedsit in Boscombe is pushing 100k here!

Posted by: Danny 20th September 2016, 09:29 PM

I think the SNP may have made a rare misstep by tying themselves so much to being pro-EU these last few months. According to the latest polls, although some 'No' voters from 2014 have switched over to a 'Yes' vote after the EU referendum, it's been cancelled out by a roughly equal number of 'Yes' voters going in the opposite direction. Rightly or wrongly, the perception that "Brussels" controls so much of what EU countries can do might well be undercutting one of the main arguments for Scottish independence (Scottish people making their own decisions about what to do with their country). Polls usually show SNP voters are surprisingly anti-immigration, too.

Posted by: Doctor Blind 20th September 2016, 09:45 PM

Yes, it really is a massive balls-up when you align yourself with the majority of public opinion ! 62 versus 38.

Posted by: Danny 20th September 2016, 10:12 PM

But a decent chunk of that 38% were former Scottish independence voters.

Posted by: Soy Adrián 21st September 2016, 06:19 AM

That's the gamble, I suppose. They may as well go for it as they're so untouchable at the moment in terms of elections.

Posted by: Silas 21st September 2016, 12:13 PM

Actually Danny there was a number of SNP voters who voted for Brexit, a sizeable chunk primarily because SNP supporters now make up about 50% of the country. The absolute majority of these voters will back independence. They want Scotland free of the UK and the EU.

You also have to remember that not all SNP voters are pro-Indy. While the majority are, there is a significant number who aren't. When I first voted SNP I was against independence.


The SNP has been conducting a massive survey recently to actually capture all of this and see who supported Yes, Bremain and who will support Yes2.

Posted by: Silas 21st September 2016, 12:16 PM

While many outside of Scotland still see the nationalists as a single issue party, the reality is that they've been in power for a long time here now and they are still receiving support because they've been doing a fairly decent job.

Posted by: Harve 21st September 2016, 08:10 PM

Right, SNP voters are all over the place, although their voters are still more pro-EU than the other main parties UK-wide (I concede that this may be down to their voters being Scottish). But for the SNP as a political party, hinting at being comfortable leaving the EU and the UK at the same time is completely unfeasible on so many levels if you cast your mind back to the 2014 referendum. Being rabidly pro-EU is the only option for a party. And besides, I wouldn't have joined them in the summer otherwise.

The SNP's level of support isn't enormously tied to monthly or annual variations in Yes/No voters. It's not a single issue party as Silas said; it's spent nigh-on a decade running a country.

Posted by: Silas 21st September 2016, 08:58 PM

Ya exactly. The demographics of all parties show that their voters are more pro-EU in general in Scotland, hence the 62% voting Bremain.


While there is a large number of Brexit supporters within the SNP it's still only around 32% of their voters, so the overwhelming majority is pro-EU. It's not as if their alienating their core base as I'd say the absolute majority of those 32% are yes voters who will vote yes again and hope to bring us out the EU in the future.


Welcome aboard Harve! I'm still registered to vote at home so I can keep voting for the SNP

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2016, 10:47 AM

Starting gun fired. Legislation published for consultation next week, vote will be before the UK leaves the EU and will be triggered if Scotland is taken out of the single market.

Posted by: Harve 13th October 2016, 11:17 AM

Spicy.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 11:40 AM

So once in a lifetime/generation is only 3 years according to Sturgeon and she has the nerve to say Brexiteers are divisive.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 11:52 AM

The goalposts have been moved a long way since the last vote. Scots were told that the only way to stay in the EU was to remain part of the UK. That is no longer the case so, as Scots voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, a second vote is entirely justified.

Posted by: Qassändra 13th October 2016, 12:06 PM

I mean, it's not as if leaving the EU doesn't represent an absolutely gargantuan re-envisioning of what it means economically to be part of the United Kingdom.

Anyway, best of luck to her.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 12:26 PM

So what you're saying is, if Scotland has this second referendum and votes to leave the UK then the Scottish people have decided they would rather be ruled by Brussels than by Westminster.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 12:29 PM

Nicola Sturgeon gonna need all the luck she can get because if this second referendum happens and she loses then we can safely say that's her political career and the SNP burnt to ashes.

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2016, 12:41 PM

A poll released this morning and conducted before the Tory conference indicates that 55% of Scotland wishes for a rerun of the independence referendum in the event of hard Brexit.

Polling is still showing the dominance of the political landscape by the SNP. Everyone, including chief hypocrite Ruth Davidson, is falling over themselves to call us divisive nationalists when in actuality it is the Tories and UKIPs divisive nationalism that has lead us to this crossroads.

Posted by: Qassändra 13th October 2016, 01:02 PM

And why not?

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 01:12 PM

In a word, No.

Posted by: richie 13th October 2016, 01:38 PM

No. We would have decided to remain in the European single market and to continue to welcome people from other countries to come and live here should they choose to. We would have to continue abiding by some EU laws, but would no longer have to endure the farcical situation where only 1 out of 59 of our representatives has a Parliamentary vote that counts.

Posted by: Qassändra 13th October 2016, 01:47 PM

I mean, that isn't really the definition of having a vote that 'doesn't count', particularly given the Tories don't have the most stable of majorities.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 02:00 PM

But Scotland would still be ruled by Brussels won't it, as for "abiding by some EU laws", don't you see, the eventual goal of EU bureaucrats is to create a federalised Europe which will reduce Scotland into a region of Europe with total power and control handed over to Brussels.

Posted by: Qassändra 13th October 2016, 02:39 PM

...no.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 03:08 PM

I think you need to read a bit more about how a federal state works. Try looking at Germnay. That's a federal state where the individual Länder have a lot of power with the central state having relatively limited powers. The whole idea was to reduce central government powers and devolve power down to the lowest practical level. Who wrote that constitution? We did.

Posted by: Taylor Jago 13th October 2016, 04:42 PM

For crying out loud, the EU is not a federal state, and that has never, and will never be its goal! The European Union's goal has always been to maintain peace in Europe, to create unity between countries, and to improve the facility of travel. It's helped things such as exchange programs for teenagers in France and Germany. And it's enabled those same teenagers to be able to travel across the continent without having to get a dozen different currencies and waste half their money on exchange ATMs! And it's enabled old people to escape mucky old Britain to live their retirement in the sunny Meditterrean coast!

The European Union has improved the lives of every single individual in this country, in some way or another, and it makes me so angry to see all these people calling it an federalist state and all that nonsense. It honestly makes me sick.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 04:46 PM

What are you talking about, the EU is nothing like Germany. Are you telling me that the EU is not interested in gaining more power and control over its member states?

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 04:57 PM

You said the EU wanted to be like a federal state. Germany is a federal state.

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2016, 04:59 PM

You're correct. It's nothing like Germany which is a federalised state, so why are you calling he EU a federalised state when it is not? The EU is a supranational entity that seeks to make it easier for Europeans to live, work, do business, travel and much more across the whole continent making us all more prosperous both financially and culturally. This kind of cooperation needs rules so that's what the EU does.

Sales tax legislation is harmonised across the EU making cross border trade in the single market easier.

Free movement of people and capital make it easier for European business to work across borders

The ban on roaming charges makes life easier for tourists and this who live along an international border

Co-operation on policing and intelligence mean that a criminal crossing a border is no barrier to justice or crime prevention



Any civil society needs rules. The EU is no different. All member states have an input into these rules and the rights to seek opt outs, something the uk made into an art form.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 05:02 PM

Germany is not the only federal state in the world, and it's obvious that the EU is not aspiring to be like the German state, more like the ex-Soviet Union. And you haven't answered my question about the EU taking more powers.

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2016, 05:04 PM

No it's an example of a federal state and guess what, you can pick any other and they work the f***ing same.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 05:10 PM

Prosperous, yeah try saying that to Greece and a LOT of young people in Italy and Spain having to cope with sky-high youth unemployment so rather than be able to work in their home country they have to migrate to the UK or Germany just to find any type of work for their self-respect.

Posted by: Silas 13th October 2016, 05:14 PM

These are not problems of the EU's making. It responded poorly to the Greek issue, but it was domestic policies and issues that lead to problems. For example: The Spanish banks lent money to the construction sector it shouldn't have and in the financial crisis the bubble burst and the Spanish State had to step in - that's the root of their issues.

Stop blaming the EU for every single thing that goes wrong in Europe. It's not faultless, but it's certainly not to blame for the absolute majority of things it is blamed for.

In fact, that they are able to migrate to other countries to work and provide for their families is an example of how the EU is actually effective. Instead of these people sitting on the Dole in Madrid, Naples, Seville or Rome they are able to find a job, pay tax in another member state (improving its economy and services) and then send money home to help their families which helps the economy in their home nation. Simple economics says that actually this is a huge positive of the EU and it's 4 freedoms.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 05:31 PM

^
Wow, that was an unbelievably simplistic reason as to why Greece, Spain, and Italy are so economically ruined and they're not even the only EU member states suffering under the EU. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and join the basket case of the EU then knock yourself out, at least it will give England a good laugh at their expense.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 07:50 PM

The EU only takes powers if the member states agree. Of course, if you want to cling to the idea that there is an army of bureaucrats in Brussels creating and enacting new rules without any input from member states, you are free to do so. Equally, I am free to give you the facts. The tragedy is that a momentous decision has been made by people ignorant of these facts.

Posted by: popchartfreak 13th October 2016, 07:57 PM

The EU didnt create the banking crisis. That is the root of all the current misery in Europe and the USA. That was created by stupid western politicians believing mega banks and the people who work for them had any other motive than getting rich, by hook or by crook, without giving a toss what it did to poor people the world over. The EU was complicit in going along with it, but as Ive explained time and again the roots of the banking crisis go back to Thatcher, her political loosening of the banking regulations, allowing mega banks that can destroy economies and allowing them to lend to people with no money and sell their crap on to other greedy mega banks. This was an invention of British bankers. If anyone is to blame, out of the whole wide world, it's the UK and the USA for inventing and pushing the whole corrupt system.

So the bamkers did it, and got away with it. And the rich people manipulated the stupid people by trying to blame foreigners for all the ills that they created. That's how it works in politics. That's how it's always worked throughout history. Check your history books. The history books for the early 21st century will say much the same thing. Foreigners are ALWAYS scapegoats in any major economic crisis or turndown. Always. We are all foreigners, or descendants of foreigners. This a fact.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th October 2016, 09:14 PM

Are you always this sanctimonious. You haven't given any facts at all, it's just your interpretation of what the EU is.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th October 2016, 09:23 PM

No, it is a simple, easily verifiable fact that EU laws are made with the consent of member states.

Posted by: skankhunt42 13th October 2016, 09:34 PM

The only liberal interperetations of the EU come from your Murdoch press.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 13th October 2016, 09:35 PM

You are more than welcome to bring facts to the table yourself. We are all waiting.


As many of the regular posters in the News/Politics forums are largely left-leaning, I'm always happy to see right-leaning posters contributing to this forum for viewpoint diversity, which I believe is important in our increasingly polarized times we live in. However, making spurious claims, then crying foul when called out on it, is not going to endear you to anyone. If you disagree with what Suedehead, or any other people debating in this forum, have to say, then by all means disagree. But please back it up with evidence, rather than ad hominem attacks.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 13th October 2016, 09:37 PM

You too, please.

Posted by: Qassändra 14th October 2016, 12:38 AM

And do you think they'd have been doing totally fine had they not been in the EU?

Posted by: skankhunt42 14th October 2016, 06:20 AM

Which of the headlines from the Murdoch press would you like? It spent the last 15 yeqrs at least attacking the EU...

Posted by: Harve 14th October 2016, 08:04 AM

The bogeyman that is the EU is not a single mass or the unified, gargantuan behemoth that you think it is. It's a complex organisation of 28 European countries, and many have very different memberships to others (Schengen, Eurozone, EU+EFTA etc.). It will be whatever these countries, together, want it to be.

It's true that some people want a federal Europe but the EU is a democracy which affords sovereignty to its members (see Brexit!) - I'm very confident that federalism will only happen if there's a clear will to do so given how many hoops there are to jump through to any further European integration and a cautious attitude to EU enlargement and EU integration has been pursued for a number of years now. It's not a case of 'power and control'.

Posted by: richie 14th October 2016, 11:02 AM

But the only members who really have any power in the Commons are those Tory backbenchers who may "rebel" and, while those inhabitants of the back benches have changed a bit since June, that's still the case. If they are reasonably united on something then they can push it through without any opposition. It's why I hate majority politics.

Of course, there is a flaw in my argument that the same happens in the Scottish Parliament where there is a huge majority for the SNP.

Posted by: Silas 14th October 2016, 11:07 AM

The SNP are two short of a majority in Holyrood. They can't pass shit without someone's support. Unless you count the Greens as the SNP too. Getting the bill through parliament will be a breeze given the Greens are pro-Indy so won't need unionists support

Posted by: Silas 14th October 2016, 11:09 AM

Previous parliament was a different story. It's where an elected upper chamber would be handy for Scotland.

Posted by: popchartfreak 14th October 2016, 12:03 PM

Not sanctimonious at all no, just stating the reality that doesn't involve made-up bent-banana Johnson/Murdoch rubbish. If any member state doesn't agree to any laws and regulations they don't get passed, same with new members and power of veto. As we shall shortly find out when we try to do a trade deal that the whole of the EU is happy with. The Americans recent attempt to do a trade deal on their own terms didn't actually pass, as I recall, which bodes very well for the UK.....

Feel free to single out any law you don't like (which May is turning into bulk UK law at the drop of a hat, the intent being to drop them one by one at a later date without Parliamentary approval, which overhauls the actual British Democratic Process - did any Leave voter indicate which laws they did and didnt like? I don't recall that being an issue, just vague generalisms about taking sovereignty, without actual instances given for the public to vote on). Feel free to comment on any helath & safety legislation you find offensive, or standards for purchasers of goods and services. It should be fairly easy to make a good case if you feel strongly about something following a bit of research....

Posted by: richie 17th October 2016, 10:15 AM

I didn't realise that - didn't pay enough attention in May then!

Posted by: richie 17th October 2016, 10:17 AM

Brexiters never seem to be able to name one, let alone single one out.

Posted by: Harve 26th October 2016, 08:11 PM

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/26/a-petition-has-been-started-to-throw-scotland-out-of-the-uk-6215998/?ito=twitter

Posted by: Silas 26th October 2016, 09:32 PM

I will register to vote in Salford just to vote Yes in that referendum #StillYes

Posted by: Silas 9th February 2017, 07:44 PM

New poll this week, first to be taken from after the "brexit means hard brexit" speech, has the split at 49/51 in favour of status quo. Will be interesting to see if this is another post brexit vote bump or if it's the start of a more permanent shift in opinion.


The Dec poll was 45.5/54.5, which was bang on trend, so new results are outwith the margin of error. Could still be an outlier or a repeat of the Record poll from end of June.

Posted by: Davidson 9th February 2017, 08:57 PM

I'm Scottish and I would still vote No every single time.

NEXT.

Posted by: Silas 9th February 2017, 09:06 PM

What makes you back the union so heavily?

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 11:55 AM

No longer "possible" Holyrood is going to vote on requesting a Section 30 from Westminster. The starting pistol just got fired

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 12:05 PM

Mad May has said they won't grant it and tbh with no opposition, and no chance of losing, she can do what she wants, as the budget showed :/

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 12:47 PM

Politically that's about as smart a plan as drinking a cup of cold sick. All the polls at the moment show it at 50/50 or 48/52 so a move like that from May would decisively tip the scales towards yes.

Posted by: Andrew. 13th March 2017, 12:58 PM

It's happening *.*

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 01:08 PM

It's what Spain does with Cataluña tbh. I think she will follow their example, using the last referendum as proofthe issue was solved for a 'generatiom'. Their concept of generation of courseis the biblical Kaine and Able one.

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 01:16 PM

Spain has a constitution to back it up on its no ref stance. The UK doesn't have a constitution and one has been granted previously which makes it tough to argue against doing on some form of constitutional grounds. Objection from May is likely to be on timing. She'll want post departure from the EU whereas Sturgeon wants time to try and stop Scotland leaving the EU at all

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 02:03 PM

I literally cannot see it happening, especially after Brexit referendum. Governments in UK only allow referendums they think they will win. They will keep saying it is expensive, settled for a generation, a 'distraction' from ... i sert Scottish problem here.

Posted by: Soy Adrián 13th March 2017, 02:30 PM

Even if it was held and won next year, would Scotland really be able to secede from the UK and join the EU in six months?

Catalonia also relevant for that, of course.

Posted by: Envoirment 13th March 2017, 03:41 PM

If it does get given the go ahead, it should be held after the brexit negotiations are done so people can see what type of deal (if any) they're going to get.

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 03:43 PM

6 months no. But that's what transitional arrangements are for. I doubt we will be out in 2 years so I foresee a transitional arrangement there so we don't have a nasty period of upheaval where we default to WTO rules for all our trade coz that would absolutely f*** us. Like the recession to end all recessions f*** us.


Catalonia is a unionist myth that y'all really need to stop clinging too. Spain has already said it would respect the result of any constitutionally valid referendum. Catalonia can not constitutionally secede from Spain so there's no precedent there. Also the UK is leaving the EU and the Scots are staying in. This is a totally different circumstance from a region breaking free and joining on its own alongside its former government. The 2014 referendum gave them precedence there but this doesn't. To really hammer it home the spainish government could champion the idea that Scotland is the successor state of the UK and thus automatically inherit its EU membership (not likely and not currently favoured by the EU Council) as that would leave no path for Catalonia to follow. The EU is the land of asterisks and opt outs it's not inconceivable for Scotlands entry to be done in a way that leaves no path for Catalonia to follow thus keeping Madrid chuffed.

Posted by: Soy Adrián 13th March 2017, 04:02 PM

Surely that's the only option that would be acceptable for all sides. The fact that you're saying it's 'not inconceivable' is hardly optimistic when it's that or bust.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 04:08 PM

Wow Nicola Sturgeon really f***ing hates England, I see it as a win/win situation, if Scotland leaves then the rest of the UK no longer have to see and hear from that ugly racist again and if they vote to stay then she's just destroyed her own and the SNP's political careers.

Posted by: Andrew. 13th March 2017, 04:10 PM

LOL. If you want to see racist people I'd suggest looking in the mirror.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 04:21 PM

Excuse me, are you going to back that up because that's bang out of order what you just said there.

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 04:28 PM

Buzzfeed News are quoting an EU source that says Scotland's entry into the EU is a 'slam dunk'. I'm 110% confident that we will get in, I'm just theorising on the actual way we will join. The Spaniards have been noticeably less hostile this time round and we have mountains of backing from Guy Verhofstadt and quite a number of people in the German government and at the top of their opposition parties.

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 04:30 PM

Wanting free trade with common wealth countries as they speak the same language rather than EU states?

Posted by: lotita 13th March 2017, 04:33 PM

yes because scotland will go independent then just cease to exist from the media :') if she lost another indyref (which i strongly doubt would happen, it'll be close if it is the case) then yes she'll probably resign, but i can't think it'll wreck the SNP, not now.

Posted by: Envoirment 13th March 2017, 04:33 PM

The EU have stated that Scotland would have to apply for membership once it becomes independant. Not sure how long or difficult of a process that would be for Scotland, but it could take a few years or longer to meet all the criteria. Scotland would more than likely have to join the Euro as well. In terms of Scotland's economy, I don't believe there's much of a case there for leaving the UK. Scotland exports a lot more to England/Wales/Northern Ireland than it does to the EU. Joining the Euro would likely make trading more expensive for Scotland with the rest of the UK (due to the £:Euro exchange rate). Not to mention oil prices are significantly lower than when the first independance referendum was held.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 04:41 PM

There would be no reason for her or Scotland to be in the UK media anymore if they leave the UK, for example I don't ever see the Republic of Ireland PM or President in the UK media.

Posted by: Oliver 13th March 2017, 04:44 PM

So you can call someone a racist and it's fine, but if someone calls you a racist you take the high ground and get offended?

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 04:53 PM

Daily Mail and pals will foam at the mouth over becoming a tiny marginal country and willplaaster an independent Scotland's every move over their pages for yeears.

It will also prove the 'fearmongering remoaners' right lol. It would be bye bye Britan and bye bye EU and bye bye world power status. Like we said. Oh andbye bye good evonomy.

Brexit - what a monumentally stupid and braindead decision.

Posted by: Suedehead2 13th March 2017, 06:31 PM

Scotland should be able to join the EU faster than most applicant members. They will have satisfied most of the requirements simply by being part of the UK.

Posted by: lotita 13th March 2017, 06:37 PM

i can't really see there being a referendum without a clear entry plan into the EU, so i'm sure Sturgeon will announce/negotiate that well in time for any kind of official announcement. personally i can see scotland being fast tracked in

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 06:45 PM

Hang on, calling someone a racist is not just about being offended, that's a massive slur and I'm still waiting for that person to back up what they said. And yes Nicola Sturgeon is a racist, she absolutely despises England and anything to do with us.

Posted by: Andrew. 13th March 2017, 06:47 PM

Just like you despise 'foreigners' then. (And she doesn't hate England, she just wants the decisions made in Scotland to be made by the people who live there).

Posted by: Steve201 13th March 2017, 07:09 PM

Yeooo!!!

Posted by: lotita 13th March 2017, 07:14 PM

Nicola Sturgeon is just not a racist :')

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 07:19 PM

Me despise foreigners? What a load of crap. I'm massively in favour of immigration to the UK but do I think it could be better controlled then yes, that's just common sense. Wanting your own country to have full control and knowledge over who is coming in and out of your country does NOT make you a racist, no-one ever accuses Japan or Australia of being racists for doing precisely that.
And yes, Sturgeon is a racist and she does hate England, just recently she refused to discipline an SNP head councillor for making a racist comment about English people. Also the London mayor Sadiq Khan has accused Sturgeon of stoking up anti-English racism.

Posted by: Brett-Butler 13th March 2017, 07:23 PM

I very much look forward to Scotland seceding from the United Kingdom, then take out the popcorn whilst enjoying the sight of the SNP in an independent Scotland dashing all the way to the right faster than you can say de Valera.

Posted by: Andrew. 13th March 2017, 07:29 PM

You enthusiastically support a man who has proposed muslim's being banned from coming into America. That's a funny way of being in favour of immigration I've read the comments by the SNP councillor and while they were a bit silly I see nothing against the people of England in them.

And Sadiq Khan's comments were ridiculous. It's a shame as he's always been someone I respected before.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 07:41 PM

Oh so if you support Trump then that automatically makes you a racist, what kind of logic is that, does that make all 62.9 million Americans that voted for Trump racists too. And no Trump hasn't banned Muslims from coming into the USA, he has temporarily suspended citizens from certain countries coming into the country whilst giving him time to sort out America's immigration laws. And why are you not criticising countries that PERMANENTLY ban Israeli people from entering their country, or are you just jumping on the 'let's hate anything Trump does' bandwagon.

Posted by: Andrew. 13th March 2017, 07:44 PM

Voting for Trump doesn't automatically make you racist but supporting some of Trump's individual policies (such as the Muslim ban) does imo, which you have.

Posted by: PeaceMob 13th March 2017, 07:52 PM

It's not a Muslim ban as you say, how can it be if people from countries like Indonesia and Pakistan are still able to enter the US. Seriously it's like you are brainwashed or something. Anyway like I said before, wanting full control and knowledge over who's coming in and out of your country does NOT make you a racist.

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 08:50 PM

*facepalm*

1 - reread the section of my post you quoted. It's clearly a hypothetical situation for what Spain could do to discourage Catalonia. Every EU statement is hypothetical until we actually vote yes.

As for the rest of your post. I'm just gonna use it to do a mass rebuttal of the Unionist press shite just so we're all on the same page before we start

2 - Scotland is currently part of an EU member state and thus applies all the various laws and regulations. There is no criteria too meet as it meets everyone of them already by BEING A MEMBERSTATE.

3 - Scotland and the alleged obligation to join the Euro. This particular unionist myth is so f***ing lazy because it takes 3 nano seconds to dispute. It is EU law to join the euro at some point however to do so you must meet criteria. One of these is being a member of the ERM for two years. This is over and above the economic criteria. To put off joining the euro forever you just don't join the ERM which is what Sweden have done. Or you could join the ERM and just not switch. The EU aren't hardliners over the Eurozone. About half the 2004 entrants have no plans to join the euro and the EU doesn't give a flying f***

4 - England trades more with Scotland than Scotland trades with England. We are Englands second largest export destination. rUK needs us for trade just as much as we need them. This isn't one sided. It's in both parties interests not to be f***ing idiots over the border.

5 - trade with rUK won't suddenly cease to be a thing. That's not how international trade works. This is common sense.

6 - If we were to join the Euro the pound is up the shitter so that means imports are cheap for us because of how exchange rates work it also makes trade with rEU more cost effective as we share a currency with hundreds of millions of people. If we move to Euro it's rUK that suffers with higher prices, not Scotland.

7 - You rely on us for Electricity. Literally. We overproduce massively every day and export to England because rUK doesn't have the capacity to cope without us.

8 - Oil is not the only thing our economic case is built on. There are many many many countries in Europe with a smaller or similar GDP that do just fine on their own. Or should I tell Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Croatia, Malta, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Slovakia et al that the economic case for their independence "just doesn't add up"?

9 - Oil prices are rising again. New technology means that previously unviable oil fields are being reconsidered.

I'm really fed up of the same parroted unionist bullshit. It takes seconds of constructive thought to tear the myths apart. On GDP measures Scotland is the wealthiest part of the UK outside of London. It's wealthier than many EU member states. There's your economic case. How an independent Scotland balances its books is up to the government of the day. To say it has no case economically is woeful economic illiteracy.

And I will track down and bitch slap anyone that quotes the GERS figures so hard they'll have flower of Scotland ringing in their ears for the next 50 years. Those numbers are so discredited it's unreal. They include trident and HS2 (which stops at Manchester) and funding for other uk schemes that don't touch Scotland and the costs of a variety of other policy decisions taken by Westminster that Holyrood would not follow (such as the bargain basement corporation tax rate). The true figure is around 7-8% rather than 15%. It's still not great but last time I checked rUK hasn't hit a deficit target for over a decade. Maybe your economic case for independence just doesn't add up 🤔


Also brexiteers using the same things against us that they used to build their argument for leaving the EU is hilarious
*breathes*

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 09:06 PM

A more reasonable PM could use this, and the worry of NI reunifying with Ireland and Welsh independence, to call off Brexit, stating that thr survival of the Union is more important than following a 52-48% vote out the EU. Alas, we have Mad May ...

Posted by: Qassändra 13th March 2017, 09:14 PM

The argument that Spain would veto Scotland because of Catalonia is one of my pet peeves when it comes to the independence debate - even before the EU referendum happened and changed everything. The idea that a nation that voted for independence through an approved referendum would be vetoed for EU membership because a nation doesn't want to give succour to an unapproved referendum makes no sense whatsoever.

The argument on successor status for Scotland is more shaky but I think it would be tremendously unlikely the EU wouldn't move heaven and earth for the PR win of a country seceding in large part to rejoin it.


Amazing! Trump apparently not racist but Sturgeon is! Incredible scenes!

Posted by: Qassändra 13th March 2017, 09:16 PM

Nah - Tories have already got that slot sewn up. The SNP would carry on talking left and governing centre, and the financial exodus from London to Edinburgh would give them more than enough leeway for a short while. What'll be more interesting is what the radical left in the SNP do once 'keep it steady till independence' isn't an excuse the party leadership can use anymore.

Posted by: Qassändra 13th March 2017, 09:27 PM

It depends on what you define 'just fine on their own' as. They exist, sure enough, but most Scots certainly won't be pleased with an outcome that leaves them with a worse standard of living, as is the case in the majority of those countries.

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 13th March 2017, 09:31 PM

Brexiteers voted to become a marginal country, so Scotland seceding and UK becoming a rump state and losing ita UN swcurity seat is on them. Well done.

Posted by: Envoirment 13th March 2017, 10:00 PM

1. Ye reread sorry about that.

2. But when it becomes independant it won't be a member state of the EU and will have to sort out things like its government amongst other things (don't get me wrong, all that stuff should be sorted out quite quickly given Scotland already has a lot of devolved powers). That might take a bit of time to do, then once that's sorted it'll have to apply to become a memberstate which can be a bit of a lengthy process. Although I agree it shouldn't take too long for Scotland to become a member. But it could still take a couple years or so to sort out.

3. Fair point, but Scotland will still have to come up with its own currency if it doesn't take on the Euro. I'm guessing a Scottish pound will suffice.
4. That's true and hope both sides manage to get that sorted out if Scotland does leave.

5. Never said trading would cease to exist.

6. That assumes Scotland keeps the pound, which I highly doubt Scotland will. It'd have to create its own currency (Perhaps a Scottish pound, similar to other countries using their own version of the dollar). The £:Euro is much different to the £:$ as well because there's a lot of financial pressure on the Euro (in part due to what's happening in Italy/Greece and to a lesser extent Spain/Portugal). So there's definitely a big risk in taking on the Euro (perhaps more or less of a risk in a few years time though).

7. I don't think that'll be too much of an issue with the changes to electical infrastructre/demand falling in the UK. Although it could be something to help boost an independant Scotland's economy (charge a little less than other suppliers like France, but still charging more than you would've previously).

8. Never said it was, but a new viable economic plan would have to be devised. The SNP would need to raise taxes given the budget deficit and the fact they spend more per person on public services compared to the rest of the UK. That could prove unpopular and there may be slow economic growth at first (or worst-case a recession) once Scotland leaves.

9. Oil prices are actually falling once again. Despite curbs on oil production in a number of countries, Iran & Iraq are increasing supply and the US is having another Shale oil boom. In fact the US could cause prices to fall further with the Trump administartion getting rid of the EPA (less regulation, easier for companies to start drilling etc).

And what I meant by economic case was in regards to growth (as most are focused on sadly). I didn't mean the scottish economy would automatically collapse. Just that leaving the union would likely lead to less growth than staying for a time. But there's a lot of uncertainty still as things can change quite dramtically in a few years time. The deal with the EU may not be all that bad, which could weaken the case for an independant Scotland. But at the same time there'll be a lot of difficulties that'll need to be faced if Scotland does become independant. Either way I wish the best for Scotland whether it votes to leave or not. I'd hope that the referendum will be after a deal has been made (and accepted/rejected) rather than in the middle of all the negotiations. Thanks for your response as well Silas, much more substantial than the typical insult-ridden, sarcastic-infused conversations I see across other places in regards to indyref2

Posted by: Silas 13th March 2017, 10:26 PM

I'll respond properly when I land back home tomorrow (I'm just between flights now) but ta for the response you make a few decent points there

Posted by: common sense 13th March 2017, 11:01 PM

I hope May refuses them a second referendum. Better still though would be for them to have another and it's another vote to stay in the UK. Maybe motormouth Sturgeon will STFU then.

Posted by: Harve 14th March 2017, 02:07 AM

I actually think that the € could be very viable but I accept that it's toxic amongst the majority of voters in Scotland. Bear in mind that 6 countries have joined the eurozone since the financial crisis, and only one of them (Cyprus) has suffered major problems.

What's regrettable is that much of southern Europe's problems were avoidable. The Euro wasn't even the cause, but I admit that Eurozone membership under the imperfect setup of a currency union without a common fiscal policy enhanced these issues.

Regardless, Scotland isn't obliged to join the Euro.

Posted by: Silas 14th March 2017, 09:57 AM

On what grounds? You got your economically fatal little racist vote that resulted in the murder of an MP. Why shouldn't Scotland, a country that existed for 1000 years before the union, get the option to choose its own path of self determination?

Posted by: popchartfreak 14th March 2017, 07:42 PM

Scotland has just as much right to decide on it's future as England has in deciding to leave the EU, there is no difference. Pretending the UK has the right to leave the Union and Scotland doesn't have the right to leave another Union is self-delusion.

Everything has changed. I didn't support an indie Scotland while we were a United Kingdom, but we ain't united in any way now. The tragedy of Scotland leaving would be the Tory Right-wing will have free reign over poor people in England for the rest of our lives, at least until there's an actual rather than political uprising. The chances of any other party gaining power will depend on how big a cock-up Brexit turns out to be for the majority of people (as opposed to the poor who are screwed whatever happens). If by some miracle, the weapons-selling, morality-free Tories manage to bring in cash to the country quickly (other than from tax-evading Russian oligarchs and British Virgin Island tax dodgers which does nothing for the economy and general well-being) then things may be stable.

If it all falls apart, and it's obvious it has been a disaster that will take decades to recover from, then no amount of foreign billionaire propaganda and Tory lies will convince the younger generation's opinion that they were stitched up by a bunch of rich right-wing old people. Still, at least in a decade what's left of the UK could always apply again for the EU once the demographics change...

By then it will be the last refuge of democracy given the way the USA is going...

Gotta laugh though, eh? All the "Project Fear" "lies" are coming to pass one by one - and we still haven't even triggered Article 50!

Posted by: Envoirment 16th March 2017, 04:38 PM

The UK government is apparantly going to reject a second referendum before Brexit negotiations are complete (Nicola's Autumn 2018/Spring 2019 dates being rejected essentially).

Scottish independence: Referendum demand 'will be rejected'

The UK government is to reject calls for a Scottish independence referendum before Brexit after Theresa May said "now is not the time".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39293513

I feel that's fair. Better to see what sort of deal the UK will get with the EU when talks conclude in 2019 before voting for independance. It seems as though indyref2 will not granted until after the next general election though.

Posted by: bad gal lotita 17th March 2017, 12:12 PM

non surprising but also ridiculously stupid

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 17th March 2017, 02:07 PM

Called it!

Posted by: PeaceMob 17th March 2017, 02:36 PM

There won't be another referendum until at least 2023 and that's only IF the SNP win a majority in 2021 in the Scottish parliament. Theresa May has just outskilled Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, it wasn't that difficult though for the UK Prime Minister
However this also means another 4 years of endless ranting and "blaming the English" from the Scottish Nationalists for the next 4 years.

Posted by: Qassändra 17th March 2017, 02:59 PM

Outskilled them...how? She's made the entire fate of the union contingent on the EU giving the UK a good deal. You're going to have to decide which enemy is actually an enemy at some point. It's not exactly going to be bloody difficult for the SNP to win a majority if there's a majority for Scottish independence by then, considering they won one at a time when there definitely wasn't and came a shade off getting another last year.

Posted by: PeaceMob 17th March 2017, 03:53 PM

The majority of the Scottish people do not want a second referendum so soon, Theresa May anticipated what Nicola Sturgeon would do and by refusing this referendum the PM knew that she would have the majority of Scotland backing her to refuse this referendum, that's why all this bluster from the SNP is just laughable, they look like a massive joke party. Now Theresa May has shown Scotland that a Conservative Prime Minster DOES listen to Scotland, and the SNP only represents themselves.

And no I don't see the EU as the enemy, not when the UK will be out of the EU soon and we will be mostly just a trading partner with it. The EU can go ahead with their federalisation of one European nation just as long as the UK is well away from that nonsense.

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 17th March 2017, 04:00 PM

The UK will be back in the EU soon enough. 80% of the younger generations want in. Wait.

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 17th March 2017, 04:00 PM

Or what's left of it.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th March 2017, 04:04 PM

Would you like to explain what you mean by federalisation? By my definition, the two classic examples of a federal state are the USA and Germany. The federal constitution of Germany was written by British lawyers with the specific aim of limiting the power of central government.

Posted by: common sense 17th March 2017, 04:13 PM

It's made that choice and the decision was to stay in the UK. They should at least wait a generation or at least 10 years for another vote. Sturgeon's just obsessed. No wonder she's got armed police protection now because of awful Twitter comments about her. Don't agree with those but she's annoying many people.

Posted by: PeaceMob 17th March 2017, 04:16 PM

The EU's aim is a federal state like the USA, that's why the euro currency was created and there is now talk of one European army replacing NATO. I'm totally against all of that, my nationality is British/English, not European (or whatever they'll call it).

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th March 2017, 04:22 PM

Are you aware of how much autonomy the American states have? The USA is a long way from being a centralised state.

Posted by: Peenus Fly Trap 17th March 2017, 04:31 PM

I am European. Not a Little Englander.

Posted by: popchartfreak 17th March 2017, 06:58 PM

May's argument is that Scotland can't vote until we know the terms of Brexit.

I'm happy to agree to this as long as the whole of the UK can have the same vote once we know all the terms of the agreement (or no agreement at all). David Davis is as thick as pig shit. He failed to answer almost all questions about preparing for Brexit, and it's his job to be prepared, he's had 9 months to work out what happens. (and 40 years)

Sadly, May seems to think a democratic vote won be a mere 4% means that they have permission to bypass Parliament, the british people (most of whom DIDNT vote for Brexit) and to cock up negotiations pursuing a hard brexit that wasn't on the ballot.

I'll also remind everyone that neither the PM nor her Chancellor had read their own Manifesto, before raising National Insurance, and then backing down when they upset their own interests. Talk about useless. I don't trust this shower to sort out organising a street market properly never mind complex subjects.

Talk about undemocratic, kettle calling the frying pan black arse. May's arse is blacker than anyone's, the hypocrite.

Posted by: Suedehead2 17th March 2017, 09:18 PM

May is clearly trying to demonstrate that she has been listening to the arguments against leaving the EU. Unfortunately, rather than drawing the obvious conclusion, she is simply deploying the same arguments against Scottish independence. After all, she was recently saying that Scotland would be mad to sever close ties with their closest trading partner. After all, what sort of idiot would do that?

Posted by: Silas 18th March 2017, 12:17 AM

*in a parliamentary system designed to prevent majorities. Support for independence doesn't equate with support for the SNP though there is a very high correlation. The Greens have seen a rise in popularity thanks to their pro-indy stance so there is majority support in Holyrood.


This is a miscalculation by May. To suggest it's a victory is woefully naive and shows that you have not one iota of understanding of Scotland, it's people nor Scottish politics.

Support for Indy is already at 50%. Support for May is much lower than in England. Much lower.

The Scottish intensely dislike being dictated to by anyone but especially by Tory PMs.

May makes the assumption that she will retain the support of the many who say "not pre-brexit" with this. This is a miscalculation. A majority support the right of the Scottish parliament to determine timing.

This is a complete political gift to Sturgeon as it gives the Indy campaign a great platform to campaign on until they get their vote and given some of the language used, 2 years of hearing May say that over and over while watching a Hard Brexit like a slow motion car crash will make the result very firmly for independence.

Also, a vast majority support the single market. Even many of Ruth's tories. So the hard brexit shows explicitly she doesn't care one f*** about Scotlands democratic nor political wishes so no one will read this as May listening to Scotland.

It's so absurd it's actually hilarious.

Posted by: bad gal lotita 18th March 2017, 12:33 AM

why do you feel so threatened by the idea of an european nationality/identity? federalism isn't some big scary thing, in fact imo it could make the EU more democratic. i'd personally be a supporter of moving towards a federal europe, not that i ever see it happening sadly.

Posted by: Suedehead2 18th March 2017, 11:48 PM

The words of Theresa May from April 2016, a little under a year ago. She is now claiming that the SNP are somehow being sneaky in trying to hold another referendum. So sneaky that even Mayhem had already spotted their tactics a year ago.

Posted by: popchartfreak 19th March 2017, 10:01 AM

I love it when one can throw a politicians words back at themselves, because the only response they can have is "cos I say so"....

Hypocrite May.