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Minneapolis/Black Lives Matter, rioting and major upheaval

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Iz 🌟 View member profile	May 29 2020, 03:39 PM Post #21
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,409 User: 12,929	QUOTE(CXNDÆRELLA-12 @ May 29 2020, 03:29 PM) Have the rioters touched any historical sites in Minneapolis? I've just seen there has been a Native youth organisation burned that had historic photos in it See this stuff is unfortunate, and I wish it wouldn't happen, but the murder was worse and it is on the cops who killed him and every other cop who's killed a black person before. Meanwhile we also have attorneys out here saying that the video of Floyd being killed isn't enough evidence for criminal charges as if anything more was needed to prove that the people caught up in this have been failed by the state.


crazy chris View member profile	May 29 2020, 04:06 PM Post #22
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 22,001 User: 53	QUOTE(Izzy @ May 29 2020, 04:39 PM) Meanwhile we also have attorneys out here saying that the video of Floyd being killed isn't enough evidence for criminal charges as if anything more was needed to prove that the people caught up in this have been failed by the state. Yeah he says there's "other evidence to consider too" What else can there be to possibly mitigate that? It's as clear as day for the world to see. Trump's told the Mayor that if he doesn't quell the riots then he'll take charge and will stop them. By the way, his Tweet wasn't deleted but hidden so you've to click on it to see it. Can't be shared or re-Tweeted though.


Popchartfreak View member profile	May 29 2020, 04:32 PM Post #23
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	The police have been doing this since they were created, right back to slavery times. It's just that in the past there wasn;t mobile phones and the police were in control of the narrative, ganging together to make sure they don;t get convicted of stuff like this. It seems outrageous if you've never seen it before, but honestly this is same old same old - murders followed by rioting followed by troops shooting at the rioters. Back in the 60's/70's the troops were brought in for peaceful anti-war protests by students and they were gunned down. The 60's had riots, the 70's had riots, the 80's had riots, and so on. Peaceful protests are the only way, because then you have the moral ground. Soon as the rioters and shoplifters move in (at every opportunity) you lose the argument and give the establishment a Get Out Of Jail Free card. Martin Luther KIng knew this to be true, right up to his dying day, which is why he became the most dangerous Black man in the USA to the white supremacists. They couldnt portray him as a gun-toting radical and erase his message. Killing him made him a martyr, and then there's nothing at all you can do to silence him and his cause.


Iz 🌟 View member profile	May 29 2020, 04:50 PM Post #24
I'm a paragon so don't perceive me Joined: 3 February 2011 Posts: 37,409 User: 12,929	QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 29 2020, 04:32 PM) The police have been doing this since they were created, right back to slavery times. It's just that in the past there wasn;t mobile phones and the police were in control of the narrative, ganging together to make sure they don;t get convicted of stuff like this. It seems outrageous if you've never seen it before, but honestly this is same old same old - murders followed by rioting followed by troops shooting at the rioters. Back in the 60's/70's the troops were brought in for peaceful anti-war protests by students and they were gunned down. The 60's had riots, the 70's had riots, the 80's had riots, and so on. Peaceful protests are the only way, because then you have the moral ground. Soon as the rioters and shoplifters move in (at every opportunity) you lose the argument and give the establishment a Get Out Of Jail Free card. Martin Luther KIng knew this to be true, right up to his dying day, which is why he became the most dangerous Black man in the USA to the white supremacists. They couldnt portray him as a gun-toting radical and erase his message. Killing him made him a martyr, and then there's nothing at all you can do to silence him and his cause. I mean, the facts that the riots are continuous prove that racism is an ongoing issue in the culture of America and the peaceful protests haven't solved it yet either, on this I support whatever will ultimately lead to the least harm for the most number of people, I do not want a negative peace that will just lead to more acts like this in the future. Riots are the acts of the desperate, of those who have no other meaningful way of interacting with the system, and any country that lets them happen like this for so long is rotten to its core and needs massive structural change.


Rooney View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:02 PM Post #25
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,597 User: 88	QUOTE(dhwe @ May 29 2020, 04:25 PM) I dunno if that's such an apples-to-apples comparison, we're talking about a state-sanctioned act of racial violence here. I would also argue that there isn't quite a moral equivalence between said act of racial violence and doing some property damage. I don't really want to argue the righteousness behind rioting when the whole point is that it all started with a morally bankrupt act of senseless violence. don't be surprised when the people act in kind. QUOTE(LMLou @ May 29 2020, 04:37 PM) To the people so outraged by the riots, what exactly is your answer to end , or at least bring a lot more attention to police brutality? Holding signs on the side of the street? Voting for Joe Biden? Like popchart says, when you srart rioting you lose the moral highground. The narrative focus sadly shifts and what does rioting achieve? I totally get the anger, but I am not sure what good rioting a Target store is going to do when they have nothing to do with what has happened? The old saying two wrongs don't make a right. It honestly baffles me that people are trying to justify destorying a Target store. Destroying the police station, yeah totally I get that. But it does more harm than good to the overall cause. I'm guessing a lot of people have short memories about the London riots. What started with a purpose just turned in to a shit load of opportunism with many local people caught coincidentally in the cross-fire.


Chez Wombat View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:18 PM Post #26
The owls are not what they seem Pronouns: He/him Joined: 11 July 2009 Posts: 37,107 User: 9,232	As much as I understand the reason for the riots, I do agree they can have a detrimental effect on the cause if they go too far. Just watch Fox News and the like now focus on how horrible it is that the 'thugs' attacking the department stores rather than focus on the police brutality that sparked this. Heck, Trump's already gone that angle and sadly, people will believe it.


dhwe View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:23 PM Post #27
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 20 November 2014 Posts: 2,588 User: 21,384	fwiw, it was a peaceful protest until they brought out the shields and the tear gas.


Envoirment View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:23 PM Post #28
BuzzJack Platinum Member Joined: 21 November 2009 Posts: 8,545 User: 10,030	The police officer responsible for the death has now been arrested. A step in the right direction for what has happened. But whether he gets charged is another story. Really heartbreaking to see what's been going on in the US. I'm especially bothered by the fact their own president tweeted something like "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" - just when I thought he couldn't get any lower. This post has been edited by Envoirment: May 29 2020, 05:23 PM


blacksquare View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:29 PM Post #29
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 25 July 2016 Posts: 4,364 User: 23,471	Of course, in an ideal world, peaceful protest would actually work. It started out as one! We're also acting like people haven't been kneeling for years — and then lost their jobs for it. Americans love to hark back to the constitution and mourn the country they've lost — like the entire history of America wasn't built on riots, enslavement and massacring. Change doesn't always come peacefully. Some people never had peace to begin with. I really do think it is important to understand what has led to this moment. Record unemployment, 100k dead from COVID, continued systemic racism (continuous murder) and injustice — people are desperate for change. They have nothing to lose at this point. Target can bounce back, property can be rebuilt — the lost loves of black men throughout the country cannot. I'm not going to condemn people desperate to live and survive in their country because they didn't go about things the way I would have prefered. Instead, my anger is going to be solely on the system, society and the government for allowing it to get to this point. This post has been edited by blacksquare: May 29 2020, 05:31 PM


Andrew. View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:31 PM Post #30
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	I agree that it would make more sense to destroy the actual police station rather than Target etc. But the way the system is structured right now suits the massive corporations like Target.


p a v View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:34 PM Post #31
thanks for being a sarcy lil bitch Joined: 25 September 2007 Posts: 79,270 User: 4,397	QUOTE(blacksquare @ May 29 2020, 08:29 PM) Of course, in an ideal world, peaceful protest would actually work. It started out as one! We're also acting like people haven't been kneeling for years — and then lost their jobs for it. Americans love to hark back to the constitution and mourn the country they've lost — like the entire history of America wasn't built on riots, enslavement and massacring. Change doesn't always come peacefully. Some people never had peace to begin with. I really do think it is important to understand what has led to this moment. Record unemployment, 100k dead from COVID, continued systemic racism (continuous murder) and injustice — people are desperate for change. They have nothing to lose at this point. Target can bounce back, property can be rebuilt — the lost loves of black men throughout the country cannot. I'm not going to condemn people desperate to live and survive in their country because they didn't go about things the way I would have prefered. Instead, my anger is going to be solely on the system, society and the government for allowing it to get to this point. Thank you for such a perfect summary. I completely agree.


Suedehead2 View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:34 PM Post #32
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	QUOTE(Envoirment @ May 29 2020, 06:23 PM) The police officer responsible for the death has now been arrested. A step in the right direction for what has happened. But whether he gets charged is another story. Really heartbreaking to see what's been going on in the US. I'm especially bothered by the fact their own president tweeted something like "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" - just when I thought he couldn't get any lower. There's another five months to go before the election. I'm sure he'll manage to go a good deal lower by then.


Silas View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:42 PM Post #33
Queen of Soon Joined: 24 May 2007 Posts: 74,077 User: 3,474	The United States, more so than most other western nations, was built on the backs of unpaid labour from slaves and this continues today in the form of modern slavery. Corporations like target exploit PoC and pay them hideously low wages, they’re a rightful target for anger. Sometimes violence is the only language that people understand. Peaceful protest doesn’t do shit, so why not try a riot. Think the MLK quotes from the previous page sum it up so well. Convenient that white Americans forget that their entire country was founded by a f***ing riot and the destruction of property. It’s vile but it’s far too easy for us in the UK to look down on the yanks as if we don’t have an issue. Our cops may not be armed but they’re still killing PoC in custody at alarming rates. May not be to the same scale but we still have our own problems to look and and sort out. As for the US. Jesus. They seem to attract a certain type of person into law enforcement but that’s the last person that should be a cop. They once did a tv show where us cops went to the Scottish police training academy to see Scottish methods. Scottish police were taught to de-escalate at every step but the US cops are the opposite, they’re taught escalating tactics which is how so often we end up where we are today. They escalate right up to death. But then again when you start by holding an unarmed person at gun point where do you go from there other than to the morgue?


Rooney View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:47 PM Post #34
WINTER IS COMING Joined: 7 March 2006 Posts: 45,597 User: 88	QUOTE(Andrew. @ May 29 2020, 06:31 PM) I agree that it would make more sense to destroy the actual police station rather than Target etc. But the way the system is structured right now suits the massive corporations like Target. What is this even meant to insinuate? Is there some link between racism and capitalism that I am unaware of? Genuinely curious. I'm sorry but anyone trying to justify rioting a bloody Target store is just ridiclous. Not only does it shift the narrative against the real problem here (racism in America) it's just plain wrong. Like always, and it's the same for the left and the right, people try to push their political agenda on to the story here. People lose sight of the problem- racism in America and are using the incident to make some bizzarre political agenda points.


LouisL View member profile	May 29 2020, 05:55 PM Post #35
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 28 September 2017 Posts: 3,964 User: 42,419	QUOTE(Rooney @ May 29 2020, 06:47 PM) What is this even meant to insinuate? Is there some link between racism and capitalism that I am unaware of? Genuinely curious. I'm sorry but anyone trying to justify rioting a bloody Target store is just ridiclous. Not only does it shift the narrative against the real problem here (racism in America) it's just plain wrong. Like always, and it's the same for the left and the right, people try to push their political agenda on to the story here. People lose sight of the problem- racism in America and are using the incident to make some bizzarre political agenda points. You're yet to make any sort of alternative suggestion though as to how protestors can ensure attention is being brought to the cause. If stealing from a massive supermarket chain is SO awful what else should they do? People are dying, being murdered by the police, is looting stores gonna stop that? NO, but its gonna keep the conversation going for a while and hopefully give America (and the world) some sort of wake up call


blacksquare View member profile	May 29 2020, 06:02 PM Post #36
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 25 July 2016 Posts: 4,364 User: 23,471	QUOTE(Rooney @ May 29 2020, 06:47 PM) What is this even meant to insinuate? Is there some link between racism and capitalism that I am unaware of? Genuinely curious. QUOTE(Quarantilas @ May 29 2020, 06:42 PM) The United States, more so than most other western nations, was built on the backs of unpaid labour from slaves and this continues today in the form of modern slavery. Corporations like target exploit PoC and pay them hideously low wages, they’re a rightful target for anger. QUOTE(Rooney @ May 29 2020, 06:47 PM) I'm sorry but anyone trying to justify rioting a bloody Target store is just ridiclous. Not only does it shift the narrative against the real problem here (racism in America) it's just plain wrong. Like always, and it's the same for the left and the right, people try to push their political agenda on to the story here. People lose sight of the problem- racism in America and are using the incident to make some bizzarre political agenda points. What is the politcal agenda being pushed here? It seems like you're completely missing the point. This goes beyond party politics, left or right — Minnesota has a Democratic governor, mayor, and council. People are desperate for change and don't want to die at the hands of the police anymore — they have tried to peacefully protest for years and they're at breaking point. Your disdain is misplaced. This post has been edited by blacksquare: May 29 2020, 06:05 PM


Andrew. View member profile	May 29 2020, 06:06 PM Post #37
is in hibernation Joined: 24 August 2014 Posts: 11,385 User: 21,161	QUOTE(Rooney @ May 29 2020, 06:47 PM) What is this even meant to insinuate? Is there some link between racism and capitalism that I am unaware of? Genuinely curious. I'm sorry but anyone trying to justify rioting a bloody Target store is just ridiclous. Not only does it shift the narrative against the real problem here (racism in America) it's just plain wrong. Like always, and it's the same for the left and the right, people try to push their political agenda on to the story here. People lose sight of the problem- racism in America and are using the incident to make some bizzarre political agenda points. I mean that the broken, Neo-liberal political system in the US that leads to these things benefits the big corporations. I'm not necessarily in favour of the riots/looting, but I care more about the victims getting justice than a company worth billions.


Popchartfreak View member profile	May 29 2020, 06:59 PM Post #38
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 18 July 2012 Posts: 22,812 User: 17,376	Do some reading people. Peaceful protests have not been properly tried since the mass gatherings of the 60's which achieved change and improvement. Riots have been tried again and again and again and have never changed a single thing except firing up the white population and giving populist politicians more ammo to batter down the conversation. It's the same with gun control. Fed up with kids being murdered? Why not try rioting in the streets and violence, cos errrr that'll kill you argument dead in a second. Fed up with homophobia? Let's all riot!!! Violence, that'll change minds for sure. Errr no. No it won't. You want to change things? Elect a President willing to change laws so that the police are accountable, and laws that make it a crime to commit racism, and ban guns. That's what the UK did. We had riots too, over racism. Didn't change anything. A roots movement among the young, backed by pop stars and others, that eventually bought in a PM and party willing to change the law changed everything.


Suedehead2 View member profile	May 29 2020, 07:13 PM Post #39
BuzzJack Legend Joined: 13 April 2007 Posts: 36,655 User: 3,272	QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 29 2020, 07:59 PM) Do some reading people. Peaceful protests have not been properly tried since the mass gatherings of the 60's which achieved change and improvement. Riots have been tried again and again and again and have never changed a single thing except firing up the white population and giving populist politicians more ammo to batter down the conversation. It's the same with gun control. Fed up with kids being murdered? Why not try rioting in the streets and violence, cos errrr that'll kill you argument dead in a second. Fed up with homophobia? Let's all riot!!! Violence, that'll change minds for sure. Errr no. No it won't. You want to change things? Elect a President willing to change laws so that the police are accountable, and laws that make it a crime to commit racism, and ban guns. That's what the UK did. We had riots too, over racism. Didn't change anything. A roots movement among the young, backed by pop stars and others, that eventually bought in a PM and party willing to change the law changed everything. Exactly. This is an election year. There are a number of ways to play it. You could resort to violence, thereby inciting racist voters to vote for the incumbent, racist president. Alternatively, you could encourage ant-racists to register and vote the racist out. The turnout in a presidential election is generally barely over 50%. That leaves a lot of non-voters so get them to register and make sure they vote.


blacksquare View member profile	May 29 2020, 07:40 PM Post #40
BuzzJack Gold Member Joined: 25 July 2016 Posts: 4,364 User: 23,471	QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 29 2020, 07:59 PM) Do some reading people. Peaceful protests have not been properly tried since the mass gatherings of the 60's which achieved change and improvement. Riots have been tried again and again and again and have never changed a single thing except firing up the white population and giving populist politicians more ammo to batter down the conversation. It's the same with gun control. Fed up with kids being murdered? Why not try rioting in the streets and violence, cos errrr that'll kill you argument dead in a second. Fed up with homophobia? Let's all riot!!! Violence, that'll change minds for sure. Errr no. No it won't. You want to change things? Elect a President willing to change laws so that the police are accountable, and laws that make it a crime to commit racism, and ban guns. That's what the UK did. We had riots too, over racism. Didn't change anything. A roots movement among the young, backed by pop stars and others, that eventually bought in a PM and party willing to change the law changed everything. No need to be condescending. Look, I understand the rationality but Minnesota is a Democratic state. This does go beyond party politics and it's not just about Trump. Systemic and societal racism isn't going to be cured by electing a different President. This is years worth of anger and pain — I'm not going to ignore or condemn the countless American black voices right now because I think there is a smarter or more acceptable way to approach it. It doesn't take much to listen. Who knows — perhaps Joe Biden and his team are seeing this unfold and realise the significance of it. It's not worthless. QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 29 2020, 07:59 PM) Fed up with homophobia? Let's all riot!!! Violence, that'll change minds for sure. Errr no. No it won't. Are we just going to pretend that Stonewall didn't happen?