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post Nov 25 2018, 02:38 AM
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I really wasnít too aware of what the new laws passed were until recently, but Iíve got interested in it despite the toxic debate on twitter (which is embarrassing from the blatant transphobic people to those who accuse anyone of even questioning the Self-ID laws of being a bigot) which Iím doing my best to stay away from!! this is a fab article on it:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/1698...lf-id-is-brave/

I think the principle of Self-ID, allowing trans people to feel more comfortable as the gender they want to be is good but their are concerns I have which when I spoke to people I knew about it, all of whom are very liberal share. One is sports teams, imo it is unfair that a self-ID trans woman is able to compete in certain womanís sport race/teams such as cycling for example, as they will have much more testosterone etc and that added to the advantage in sports like cycling that comes from a male body makes it unfair for cis women. There is a reason we have single-SEX sporting teams, not single gender. This is also unfair to trans men, as realistically theyíd always be behind cis men in sport. A second one isnt related so much to the act but more a general issue- when it comes to sexuality. A lot of people are saying online, not even in the twitter debate but in other places that itís somehow bigoted for say a lesbian not to want to date trans women. The vast majority of trans women havenít had genital surgery- which of course theyíre not obliged to and doesnít make them men. But when itís so likely that they havenít had that surgery, surely itís fair for lesbians to say itís unlikely they wouldnít want to date a trans women? As a gay male (I do consider myself gender neutral in my mind space and I truly believe the soul has no gender) although Iíve been with a woman(/person with vagina) before SEXUALLY I wouldnít want to again and if i was on a dating app for instance and the man had trans in his bio I probably would swipe right, because itís just awkward to ask Ďdo you have a penis?í

That said, people go way over the top with the concerns about this, some of the things about toilets and prisons the deluded TERFs say where they act like all trans people are predators are disgusting. and it annoys me that people use it as an excuse for pure bigotry. We need a proper debate on this, without bigots letting their prejudice fly free and without those shutting down any questioning as transphobia, as it undermines real transphobia. Sadly some Labour/SNP MPs seem to be doing just that.

What do you think of this issue? Is the toxicity on Twitter ruining what could be a good debate? Is it okay to question aspects of this policy?
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post Nov 25 2018, 12:16 PM
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This is always a difficult topic because it is largely outside our own experience. Most of us have experienced uncertainty over our sexuality, regardless of whether we now identify as straight, gay or anything else. For many people, therefore, it is relatively easy to be relaxed about people whose sexuality is different from their own.

By contrast, most of us have never had reason to question our gender. Most people are happy with the gender they were assigned at birth. That makes it more difficult to understand people who are uncomfortable with their gender. Similarly, most people don't really know anyone who has transitioned, is transitioning, or has even considered transitioning. As attitudes change, more of us will know someone who, at the very least, has considered transitioning. That, in turn, should help attitudes change further. The same thing happened with attitudes towards homosexuality; as more gay role were open about their sexuality, most people at the very least had casual acquaintances who were gay.

The issue of sport is a slightly difficult one. The case of athlete Caster Semenya illustrates this. She was born with female genitalia and has always considered herself to be a woman. However, she also has some masculine characteristics which may have helped her outperform other women. As attitudes towards transgender people change, sports authorities are likely to have to address this issue.
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post Nov 25 2018, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Nov 25 2018, 12:16 PM) *
The issue of sport is a slightly difficult one. The case of athlete Caster Semenya illustrates this. She was born with female genitalia and has always considered herself to be a woman. However, she also has some masculine characteristics which may have helped her outperform other women. As attitudes towards transgender people change, sports authorities are likely to have to address this issue.


Not to mention the old Soviet bloc 'female' athletes, so stuffed with hormones & steroids that some of their dodgy 'world records' still stand...
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post Apr 6 2019, 05:16 PM
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https://medium.com/@JonnnyBest/whats-gone-w...ll-1be30cffba9f

Please read this x
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LexC
post Apr 6 2019, 05:36 PM
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Hey Andrew, I read that but from what I read it does seem to be largely be entry level "Gender Critical" talking points like the "foistering penises on lesbians" and "gender identity is all based on offensive stereotypes" which I completely reject. The following video explains all of my subsequent thoughts better and more succinctly than I can.



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post Apr 7 2019, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE(LexC @ Apr 6 2019, 06:36 PM) *
Hey Andrew, I read that but from what I read it does seem to be largely be entry level "Gender Critical" talking points like the "foistering penises on lesbians" and "gender identity is all based on offensive stereotypes" which I completely reject. The following video explains all of my subsequent thoughts better and more succinctly than I can.


Hey, thanks for replying! I donít have the time to watch that video right now but I will tomorrow. Responding to what you said, and foremost I respect anyoneís right to identify as whatever they like and Iíll always call/refer to a trans person by their preferred identify. The problem I have is that if the leading LGBT+ charity in this country which advises many organisations as well as the government is defining homosexuality as being attracted to the same gender rather than sex, surely that is Ďfoisteringí penises (for want of a better term) on lesbians and vice versa with vaginas on gay men, because we find them attractive as well now apparently. As I am a homosexual man I am attracted to the male SEX and trans men are not biological men (they identify as male so they are men, but not the male sex). Because of this Iíd be highly unlikely to go out with a trans man, but many would call that offensive. I find it homophobic that anyone could call a gay man ruling out going out with someone with a vagina (or a lesbian ruling out going out with someone with a penis) offensive.

As for the stereotypes, obviously Iím not trans and that part of it isnít what Iím concerned about so much as I know being trans is more than ĎI want to wear a dress therefore Iím this rather than thisí. I believe gender is a social construct which we should tear apart, and I worry that if people have to change their gender because theyíre effeminate or Ďbutchí then that kinda plays into these stereotypes (which arenít necessarily offensive) rather than helps to eradicate them. But thatís societyís problem for creating these rigid gender roles in the first place, not trans people at all.

I had a few concerns with the likes of sport etc before, as this topic being started shows but the treatment of Martina Navratilova after saying trans women shouldnít compete with cis women in professional sport made me look into the whole issue a lot more as it really angered me that someone whoís done so much for the LGBT+ community was removed as an advocate of a charity and faced a big backclash for saying people who were born male and therefore have a higher level of testosterone (yes trans women have to get their testosterone level down to a lower level before being eligible to compete, but that level is still 4x the average cis womenís), muscle mass and very likely height. Iím not sure what to think right now, Iím looking at some stonewall pages and articles with concerns about trans issues online and while I have all the concerns above having looked into it more Iíd say I support the principle of self-ID for example. Iím deliberately avoiding twitter etc- as Iím sure youíre aware the debate is toxic there.
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post Apr 7 2019, 09:40 AM
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Gay rights are covered by the Equality Act. Trans Rights are covered by the Equalities Act. One gives people the right to choice by sex, without being criticised for that choice. The other gives people the right to choose how they wish to be perceived and they are free to live how they wish without being criticised for that choice. If everyone respected everyone else's boundaries there would be no problem. Unfortunately some don't.

With respect to sports, there are biological advantages to having grown up male, that's why we have traditionally had sports for biological women and sports for biological men. The only alternative is just to have "sports" for all genders, which will essentially mean biological men win everything. Yes, I do have transitioning people in my extended family, yes I have Lesbians in my family, yes I have gay men in my family, yes I have straight men and women in my family. We get along fine as long as no-one mentions Brexit.
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post Apr 12 2019, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Apr 7 2019, 10:40 AM) *
Gay rights are covered by the Equality Act. Trans Rights are covered by the Equalities Act. One gives people the right to choice by sex, without being criticised for that choice. The other gives people the right to choose how they wish to be perceived and they are free to live how they wish without being criticised for that choice. If everyone respected everyone else's boundaries there would be no problem. Unfortunately some don't.

With respect to sports, there are biological advantages to having grown up male, that's why we have traditionally had sports for biological women and sports for biological men. The only alternative is just to have "sports" for all genders, which will essentially mean biological men win everything. Yes, I do have transitioning people in my extended family, yes I have Lesbians in my family, yes I have gay men in my family, yes I have straight men and women in my family. We get along fine as long as no-one mentions Brexit.

I canít fathom how some (vile bully Rachel McKinnon for example) try and claim thereís no difference after testosterone treatment, and anyone who says otherwise is a transphobe. The treatment of Martina Navratilova by McKinnon and her bullies really bothered me, she might not have worded what she wanted to say correctly but her being labelled as prejudiced in anyway for saying biological men should not compete against biological women. Sharron Davies has explained it better though. The thing is, despite the media backlash against Martina etc, a fully-weighted poll revealed that only 1/7 of the population thought trans women should compete against cis women.

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post Apr 12 2019, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE(Andrew. @ Apr 12 2019, 02:21 PM) *
I canít fathom how some (vile bully Rachel McKinnon for example) try and claim thereís no difference after testosterone treatment, and anyone who says otherwise is a transphobe. The treatment of Martina Navratilova by McKinnon and her bullies really bothered me, she might not have worded what she wanted to say correctly but her being labelled as prejudiced in anyway for saying biological men should not compete against biological women. Sharron Davies has explained it better though. The thing is, despite the media backlash against Martina etc, a fully-weighted poll revealed that only 1/7 of the population thought trans women should compete against cis women.



Clearly there is an advantage. Biology shows there is. The fact that there is an obscurely small proportion of trans women vs numbers of biological women which is not being reflected in the proportion of podium positions of former male athletes who now compete as women despite being quite mediocre in terms of positions on the male rostrums, and take home nice cash prizes for doing so beating out biological females.

McKinnon likes to use the title "Dr." because it suggests gravitas. The title is for Philosophy and not Biology. Anyone can philosophise about anything and the viewpoint is equally valid because it's a title based on opinions and the opinions of others and is worthless in the factual real world.
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post Jul 31 2019, 01:59 AM
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I'm sure no one is looking for an update on this, but having read up on the issues from less partisan sources and educated myself, I'd say I have a better understanding about trans issues and would absolutely take back a few of my comments about dating a trans person and stereotypes etc.

I'm not saying their are zero valid concerns, but a lot of the concerns are (to me) misplaced. For example Single Sex Spaces being eradicated by the new gender act is a point often made by 'TERF' people who conveniently ignore that under the Equality Act 2010 trans people have (rightly) been able to, by law go to the bathroom etc of their choice. Another scare story is the 'cotton ceiling' that was actually raised on live British TV by Sonia Poulton. That's what really horrified me, as it's painting trans women as predatory and insinuating that women are being FORCED to date them, which simply isn't true.

I found that video you posted months back (after getting round to watching it lol) really useful and insightful thanks Lex x (I'd recommend it for anyone confused/trying to understand the issues better like me!)


This post has been edited by Andrew.: Jul 31 2019, 02:05 AM
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post Aug 1 2019, 03:21 PM
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obviously i can only speak to a certain extent here but a lot of trans people undergo hormone replacement therapy. it's one of the first steps trans people can take to transition physically meaning in terms of sports, a trans women is still going to have more estrogen than testosterone if they are taking hormomes in order to change which is the dominent one. we all have both anyway. it works the same way if a trans man is on testosterone. surely in the case of sports they'd take into consideration whether or not an athlete is undergoing hrt before deciding where they should compete.

the dating thing, i think its that its an area between being transphobic and just having a preference for a certain set of genitals can be blurred because there are people who say they won't date someone BECAUSE they are trans, lesbians that won't date a trans woman because they view her as "not a real woman". Like if you're uncomfortable having sex with someone with a penis then that's fine, it's just making sure people realise that's the reason i guess and it's not because its coming from a place of transphobia. I think the argument also comes from lesbians that wouldn't date a transman even though they could have a vagina, but then they're attracted to women, transmen are men full stop so i also can't blame them for that. I guess its just about choosing your words and making sure you're being respectful. Like anyone, trans people probably don't want to just be seen by their genitalia. Like i said though i can only speak on this to a certain extent, im cis gender but I'm also bisexual largely due to the fact I've never cared about what's going on between someones legs, I'd happily be with a trans man or trans women because it really does not matter to me. Sex shouldn't really be about the mechanics involved anyway, at least to me.
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post Aug 1 2019, 08:14 PM
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I do agree with that. I think making the blanket statement ‘I would not date a trans person’ offensive as it’s presuming what a trans person will look like/what genitalia they have. I’ve seen some trans men for example that I’d have no idea were trans if i hadn’t seen beforehand (not that how much you ‘pass’ has anything to do with how far you are into your transition/‘how trans’ you are of course).

With regards to sport, I won’t pretend to be clued up on how estrogen etc works but I do think people saying ‘trans women will kill/take over women’s sport’ by the likes of Sharon Davies is unnecessary fear at best and deliberately transphobic given that trans athletes make up a very small number of the overall tally and from my understanding, the effects of having your testosterone levels reduced so severely would be quite harmful and would balance out the advantage gained from muscle mass. I think people (me included I guess until I looked further into it) would just look at pictures and see the trans women more built than the cis ones and just assume they were much stronger and had a massive advantage.


This post has been edited by Andrew.: Aug 1 2019, 08:17 PM
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post Aug 1 2019, 08:34 PM
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i mean taller cis women are gonna have an advantage than shorter cis women when it comes to some sports as well, does that mean we should only have people who are the same height competing against one another? i don't think muscle mass should be taken into consideration really as people can be more ripped than others regardless of whether they're cis or trans etc and if they're on hrt then surely it's gonna balance out in the long run. their bodies will have been through a lot already so it's not like taking hormones to transition is going to give them much of an advantage either. i think it's just an easy excuse for cis athletes to use if they're beaten by a trans person tbh. it's gonna be more harmful for a transgender athlete to be treated like their "birth gender" and as though their trans identity isn't valid than it is for a cis person to be up against a trans person imo
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post Aug 1 2019, 09:01 PM
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Yeah any advantage (if there is one, as you say all athletes can have advantages based on height etc) will be balanced out by the effects of losing so much testosterone, which trans women have to do to compete.

And yes if you put the trans person in the category of the gender they were born at birth it would not only be dehumanising but it would give them a big disadvantage.
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post Aug 2 2019, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE(linds @ Aug 1 2019, 09:34 PM) *
i mean taller cis women are gonna have an advantage than shorter cis women when it comes to some sports as well, does that mean we should only have people who are the same height competing against one another? i don't think muscle mass should be taken into consideration really as people can be more ripped than others regardless of whether they're cis or trans etc and if they're on hrt then surely it's gonna balance out in the long run. their bodies will have been through a lot already so it's not like taking hormones to transition is going to give them much of an advantage either. i think it's just an easy excuse for cis athletes to use if they're beaten by a trans person tbh. it's gonna be more harmful for a transgender athlete to be treated like their "birth gender" and as though their trans identity isn't valid than it is for a cis person to be up against a trans person imo


That's wrong. The fact is if a trans male, for example the UFC fighter who is, competes in the female division, then they will have certain physical advantages that come from developing as male, including bone structure and muscle mass. These are permanent. They do not change.
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post Aug 3 2019, 12:09 PM
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i dont follow sports at all so there's a lot i dont know regarding the rules that may or may not be in place for these kinds of circumstances but i dont believe all cis men are always going to have an advantage over trans men - yes of course there will be times where that is the case but surely theres cis men who are smaller/have less muscle mass or whatever that could be paired against a trans man so it's fairer? do they not categorise boxing by weight anyway? they wouldnt have a 7ft tall, 300lb ripped cis guy get in the ring with an average height, average weight, slightly muscular cis man either. i just think there are alternatives that could be done before deciding that a trans man should go against a woman. maybe there could be events that are open for anyone to compete in regardless of whether they're trans or cis.

at the end of the day though it's just another example of people wanting to draw more lines, make more rules to categorise people further as society just loves to do. i dont think it matters as much as people would have you believe, maybe some trans people are comfortable competing with their opposed gender but i just imagine a lot of them won't be and we should be accommodating to that. I just hate that even when we know trans men are real men and trans women are real women, its like people are always looking for exceptions like trans people are their chosen gender except when it comes to sports or except when it comes to dating or except when it comes to bathrooms which is what doesn't sit right with me.
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