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| Automatic Reset chart rule change?, +50% change reduced to +25%? |
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 22nd July 2019, 10:04 AM
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#41
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 you never forget your first time...
Pronouns: he/him
Joined: 19 April 2011 Posts: 121,806 User: 13,530 
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QUOTE(Bristolmans @ Jul 22 2019, 11:02 AM)  I don't care if there are 10 sales a week, I want streaming removed from the sales chart. It is the worst thing that's ever happened to the charts and have made then redundant and insignificant It's not going to happen |
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22nd July 2019, 10:09 AM
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#42
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,298 User: 22,665 
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Im amazed at the comment, for me thats the most retrograde attitude
rule #1 of the charts is that they have to reflect how people consume music, if the majority of people stream, this has to be reflected in the charts... the worst thing would be a chart based on 10 asales thats like saying, in the next elections, lets not base who's president on the 60 million people that live here, let's base it on a subsample of 10 people... makes no sense... the most popular song in the Uk cannot be based on 10 people but on how people are consuming music I think it's a retrograde attitude tbh |
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22nd July 2019, 10:09 AM
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#43
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 23 June 2018
Posts: 9,511 User: 73,240
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Most of the airplay chart is just overplayed pop though, I don't see how that would help bring more variety in.
And of course, it means some songs that very few people actually like enough to buy or stream will be put in the chart simply because they're played heavily by radio stations. One of the best things about the chart for me is that it's not decided by radio. Sure, songs can get promoted a lot on radio or playlists but ultimately they won't do that well without the public's approval. |
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22nd July 2019, 10:29 AM
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#44
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New Entry
Joined: 22 November 2018
Posts: 20 User: 79,404
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How can anyone think that streams should be removed from the chart? Streaming is easily the best thing to happen to the industry. It's never been easier to discover new music legally. I have over 5,000 songs in my music library and there's no way I could afford to buy every single one of them - the only other option would've been illegal downloading. I still buy my absolute favourite music but that's just a personal preference, I doubt the majority of people do this.
It also tracks the actual popularity of a song over time - with a digital download the person could listen to it once but streaming reflects how popular #1 and Top 10 hits stay over time and goes beyond the chart peak (i.e. songs peaking in the 20s that eventually go platinum vs top 10s which barely scrape silver or gold). Barely anyone buys music anymore, it hardly reflects the popularity of a song. If the new Kylie song is #1 on iTunes and gets a couple of thousand sales but can't even chart in the Spotify Top 200 (and audio streaming accounts for 2/3 of UK music market alone, with downloads ever decreasing) then clearly that song shouldn't be high in the singles chart. Streaming is the future and desperately clinging onto digital downloads won't make the rest of the U.K. market go back to them. The only thing the OCC have messed up is ACR. It's a ridiculous rule to implement after only 10 weeks. That's not long enough to start pushing a song out and it skews the popularity of the singles chart. So what if a song is still Top 10 on the chart after 20 weeks? That just displays how much of a mega hit it is. If they have to implement it at all, they should extend it to 20 weeks at the minimum. ACR is the only thing ruining the Singles Chart, not streams themselves. And it's such a shame because I believe the OCC have got streams perfectly in the albums chart. |
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22nd July 2019, 10:45 AM
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#45
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 November 2015
Posts: 33,298 User: 22,665
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in regards to your last sentence, Im the opposite, I think the occ has it ok-ish in singles but totally wrong in albums
right now they allow playlist tracks to count for the album charts and that doesn't make sense, if you have an album with 5-6 big hits placed in gazillions of playlists, you can easily get 2-3K per week from streams... but nobody is streaming the album, it's just cos of the songs on playlists... and that's the 2-3K per week that people like Clean Bandit or Rita Ora are getting every week, and thats fake album streams and fake album sales in the end... also think they ratio is too low, they should count only when people stream the album proper, not singles or playlists, and also then these album streams only count for the album charts, not both like now... as I said I also think the ratio is too low, right now you have to listen to an album 85 times to give it 1 streaming sale... it's ok for big pop names like Ed or Lewis or Ariana, but for instance for indie albums... it's impossible to get good streaming figures, I've streamed the new National album 2/3 times a week since it's out so I'd probably given it 0.1 sales maximum, and sure it's the same for many other fans, nobody streams a new album 10 times a day... back in the day you were buying it on CD and giving it 1 sale straight away, now you barely gonna give it 0.1 or 0.2 sales... |
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22nd July 2019, 10:58 AM
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#46
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 21 February 2008
Posts: 3,051 User: 5,457
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QUOTE(coi @ Jul 22 2019, 01:09 PM) Most of the airplay chart is just overplayed pop though, I don't see how that would help bring more variety in. And of course, it means some songs that very few people actually like enough to buy or stream will be put in the chart simply because they're played heavily by radio stations. One of the best things about the chart for me is that it's not decided by radio. Sure, songs can get promoted a lot on radio or playlists but ultimately they won't do that well without the public's approval. but also streaming playlists are manipulated by record labels same thing with radio playlists, so i dont see why you should count one and discount the other... |
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22nd July 2019, 11:02 AM
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#47
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 🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
Posts: 74,596 User: 11,746
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QUOTE(Bjork @ Jul 22 2019, 10:09 AM) thats like saying, in the next elections, lets not base who's president on the 60 million people that live here, let's base it on a subsample of 10 people... makes no sense... the most popular song in the Uk cannot be based on 10 people but on how people are consuming music I think it's a retrograde attitude tbh off topic but change president to PM and 10 to 160,000 and that is the current situation in the UK 
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22nd July 2019, 11:04 AM
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#48
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🔥🚀🔥
Joined: 30 August 2010
Posts: 74,596 User: 11,746
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QUOTE(Dark Horse @ Jul 22 2019, 10:58 AM) but also streaming playlists are manipulated by record labels same thing with radio playlists, so i dont see why you should count one and discount the other... as has been said, you cannot choose or skip songs on the radio. if you don’t like a song on hot hits uk you don’t have to listen to it. |
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22nd July 2019, 11:19 AM
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#49
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 Break the tension
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 89,016 User: 51
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QUOTE(Bjork @ Jul 22 2019, 10:57 AM) But with spotify playlists you can skip songs Unlike radio What purpose does that serve though, if a lot of people don't skip within 30 seconds? |
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22nd July 2019, 11:30 AM
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#50
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New Entry
Joined: 22 November 2018
Posts: 20 User: 79,404
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QUOTE(Bjork @ Jul 22 2019, 11:45 AM) in regards to your last sentence, Im the opposite, I think the occ has it ok-ish in singles but totally wrong in albums right now they allow playlist tracks to count for the album charts and that doesn't make sense, if you have an album with 5-6 big hits placed in gazillions of playlists, you can easily get 2-3K per week from streams... but nobody is streaming the album, it's just cos of the songs on playlists... and that's the 2-3K per week that people like Clean Bandit or Rita Ora are getting every week, and thats fake album streams and fake album sales in the end... also think they ratio is too low, they should count only when people stream the album proper, not singles or playlists, and also then these album streams only count for the album charts, not both like now... as I said I also think the ratio is too low, right now you have to listen to an album 85 times to give it 1 streaming sale... it's ok for big pop names like Ed or Lewis or Ariana, but for instance for indie albums... it's impossible to get good streaming figures, I've streamed the new National album 2/3 times a week since it's out so I'd probably given it 0.1 sales maximum, and sure it's the same for many other fans, nobody streams a new album 10 times a day... back in the day you were buying it on CD and giving it 1 sale straight away, now you barely gonna give it 0.1 or 0.2 sales... Yes, this is why they bring down the weighting of the 2 most streamed songs in line with the rest of the album (and they have it capped at the next 10 I think so albums like Chris Brown's can't get a big debut due to having 30+ tracks). This isn't the case in America where 1 stream from a single is equal to an album track and albums linger for months and years due to having 2 big hits. In the U.K. the album can't rely on 1 or 2 big hits to keep the album afloat, due to them streams being weighed down. An example of this is how Billie Eilish's new album "WWAFAWDWG" is currently having a lot more longevity on the album chart than Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" even although the latter produced 3 #1 hits. And the album chart clearly favours pure sales as a result of this, given that A Star Is Born OST and Jess Glynne's album are serving more longevity in the Top 10 than "thank u, next" too and the big hip-hop albums like Drake's Scorpion and Post Malone's BB&B (although they comfortably hang around the 30s for a long time which I suspect will be the same for thank u, next). |
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22nd July 2019, 11:50 AM
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#51
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 8 March 2006
Posts: 675 User: 110
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QUOTE(aidan755 @ Jul 22 2019, 11:29 AM) "The only thing the OCC have messed up is ACR. It's a ridiculous rule to implement after only 10 weeks. That's not long enough to start pushing a song out and it skews the popularity of the singles chart. So what if a song is still Top 10 on the chart after 20 weeks? That just displays how much of a mega hit it is. " That's not really true though is it? I wonder how many 'mega' songs get streamed millions of times a week for 10 weeks plus, purely because they're in a very popular Spotify made playlist that is just played by the consumer just because it's the track directly after the newest Ed single etc. and the user hasn't cared to skip the track. In an ideal world, there would be a way to only include streamed tracks when you've actually clicked on a track and actually played/listen to said track? I've lost count on the amount of times I've listened to a song on Spotify which I've hated but because I've been busy, I haven't skipped said song. This post has been edited by Stewie: 22nd July 2019, 11:50 AM |
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22nd July 2019, 01:40 PM
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#52
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 4 April 2015
Posts: 7,831 User: 21,725
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ACR is certainly not the only thing ruining the charts at the moment, if anything the charts would be even more boring to follow without it. 2015 was the year when the chart really began to die and it's getting to the point where it could become extinct eventually.
There must be a small proportion of the UK who actually follows the official chart these days and I can bet that if you were to ask 20 random people what the current official number one is almost none of them would give the correct answer. |
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22nd July 2019, 01:50 PM
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#53
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BuzzJack Climber
Joined: 23 December 2017
Posts: 112 User: 55,727
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QUOTE(Houdini @ Jul 22 2019, 02:40 PM) ACR is certainly not the only thing ruining the charts at the moment, if anything the charts would be even more boring to follow without it. 2015 was the year when the chart really began to die and it's getting to the point where it could become extinct eventually. There must be a small proportion of the UK who actually follows the official chart these days and I can bet that if you were to ask 20 random people what the current official number one is almost none of them would give the correct answer. Totally agree. The charts are just like a book, works of fiction, they should put it in the category next to Harry Potter |
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22nd July 2019, 02:11 PM
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#54
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
Posts: 2,435 User: 22,008
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QUOTE(aidan755 @ Jul 22 2019, 11:29 AM) Barely anyone buys music anymore, it hardly reflects the popularity of a song. If the new Kylie song is #1 on iTunes and gets a couple of thousand sales but can't even chart in the Spotify Top 200 (and audio streaming accounts for 2/3 of UK music market alone, with downloads ever decreasing) then clearly that song shouldn't be high in the singles chart. Streaming is the future and desperately clinging onto digital downloads won't make the rest of the U.K. market go back to them. Streaming gives an extremely biased view of popularity. Kylie does great on sales and airplay but considering 26% of Spotify users are under 24 it’s not hard to see why she struggles there. That doesn’t mean she’s not popular, Dancing is a well known song that I think most people would be shocked only peaked at #38. Streaming is extremely flawed and the official chart shouldn’t be based so heavily on it. So yes, if people go out of their way to buy a song in this day and age because they love it so much, I think it should be rewarded for that. Why is that so offensive to some people? Do you think Into the Blue’s #12 peak means it’s a much more we’ll known song than Dancing? |
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22nd July 2019, 02:27 PM
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#55
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 22 December 2009
Posts: 30,371 User: 10,275
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Uhm young people have always been deciding what does well on charts in a large scale, haven't they?
They are the most interested in new music and that will never change. This post has been edited by SKOB: 22nd July 2019, 02:27 PM |
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22nd July 2019, 02:31 PM
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#56
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 22 June 2015
Posts: 2,435 User: 22,008
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QUOTE(SKOB @ Jul 22 2019, 03:27 PM) Uhm young people have always been deciding what does well on charts in a large scale, haven't they? They are the most interested in new music and that will never change. I didn’t know young people were such big Peter Kay fans or Cliff Richard and Diana Ross fans in 1999? 
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22nd July 2019, 02:45 PM
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#57
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Pronouns: He/Him
Joined: 28 July 2013 Posts: 5,076 User: 19,614
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Thank you aidan for saying so much I wanted to but couldn't work up the energy to say, I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread.
QUOTE(Stewie @ Jul 22 2019, 07:50 PM) That's not really true though is it? I wonder how many 'mega' songs get streamed millions of times a week for 10 weeks plus, purely because they're in a very popular Spotify made playlist that is just played by the consumer just because it's the track directly after the newest Ed single etc. and the user hasn't cared to skip the track. Ironically most of these popular Spotify playlists do generally highlight songs when they're new and on SCR, it's when songs are old and on ACR that a higher proportion of their streams are driven by user made playlists and active seeking out. The chart rules inadvertedly emphasize these playlists even more than reality. |
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22nd July 2019, 02:59 PM
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#58
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 22 December 2009
Posts: 30,371 User: 10,275
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QUOTE(No Sleeep @ Jul 22 2019, 03:31 PM) I didn’t know young people were such big Peter Kay fans or Cliff Richard and Diana Ross fans in 1999? Everyone has a possibility to stream or buy a song though, young people just use that possibility. |
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22nd July 2019, 05:29 PM
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#59
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Radical Pink Troll
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 26,606 User: 177
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Young people have always heavily influenced the chart but there always was room for the older artists before streaming. I’m over it anyway as I don’t stream much and even if I did, most people wouldn’t be streaming the artists I like anyway. It’s not a problem at all.
The problem is when you come on to sites like this one who still treat the chart the same way they always did. Kylie is struggling to get hits in the streaming era so she’s deemed past it when actually she’s probably still quite popular amongst demographics who don’t stream. The fact she get talked about as much as she does proves there’s still interest in her so why should she be deemed a flop because she struggles to make the top 40? And older artists have been popular with young listeners in the past. Believe and Hung Up were not selling to the over 40s only. The key is hooking into what’s popular at the time which unfortunately right now seems to be music that doesn’t appeal to me. |
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22nd July 2019, 06:59 PM
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#60
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Let's Go Brandon
Joined: 6 April 2006
Posts: 22,647 User: 421
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QUOTE(aidan755 @ Jul 22 2019, 11:29 AM) How can anyone think that streams should be removed from the chart? Streaming is easily the best thing to happen to the industry. It's never been easier to discover new music legally. I have over 5,000 songs in my music library and there's no way I could afford to buy every single one of them - the only other option would've been illegal downloading. I still buy my absolute favourite music but that's just a personal preference, I doubt the majority of people do this. It also tracks the actual popularity of a song over time - with a digital download the person could listen to it once but streaming reflects how popular #1 and Top 10 hits stay over time and goes beyond the chart peak (i.e. songs peaking in the 20s that eventually go platinum vs top 10s which barely scrape silver or gold). Barely anyone buys music anymore, it hardly reflects the popularity of a song. If the new Kylie song is #1 on iTunes and gets a couple of thousand sales but can't even chart in the Spotify Top 200 (and audio streaming accounts for 2/3 of UK music market alone, with downloads ever decreasing) then clearly that song shouldn't be high in the singles chart. Streaming is the future and desperately clinging onto digital downloads won't make the rest of the U.K. market go back to them. Such a flawed argument. Older people buy music, their "streaming" is listening to their CD/download many times throughout the day - those "streams" arent counted towards the official chart. So if a young person uses Spotify to stream Drake all day, why should that count more than a person who purchases a Kylie song, and listens to that download all day? Streaming is ageist and it shows, no wonder older artists cant get a hit. Its just a mess because streaming will never mean a real sale anyway, so all of this "sale equivalent" is bullcaca. |
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