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 EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June |
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 Feb 20 2016, 10:08 PM
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#21
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 DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
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QUOTE(Harve @ Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM)  At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU. Oh I can't lie, a part of me totally sympathises with this 
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Feb 20 2016, 11:17 PM
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#22
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,648 User: 3,272
     
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 10:08 PM) Oh I can't lie, a part of me totally sympathises with this It's hard not to sympathise with it. |
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Feb 21 2016, 01:15 AM
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#23
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 #38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
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QUOTE(Harve @ Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM) At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU. I'm torn between my identity as both a European and British person and the principle that the EU should be egalitarian with no special status membership (although of course the latter isn't entirely new). It's quite ironic that those who preach that the EU isn't a democratic organisation are indeed the biggest threat to the EU being fair. Obviously I can't see myself voting Leave, but I guess I share the sentiments that many people outside the UK feel and are at this point wondering, only half-jokingly, why they don't have a referendum as to whether the UK is allowed remain a member of the EU. In any case I feel as though the damage is already done. So now you know how Northern Ireland, Wales and England felt about the Scottish independence referendum (which incidentally had it gone ahead would have left Scotland with a massive hole in their finances - price of oil now less than a 1/3rd the value that was costed into the SNP independence budget). |
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Feb 21 2016, 03:57 PM
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#24
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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That puffed up wanker has gone for Out, I see.
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Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM
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#25
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 21 2016, 03:57 PM) That puffed up wanker has gone for Out, I see. Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does. Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to i) dithering; or ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions. |
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Feb 21 2016, 08:20 PM
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#26
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM) Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does. Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to i) dithering; or ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions. possibly he failed to understand the question until someone showed him pretty pictures which clarified what each meant... |
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Feb 24 2016, 02:08 PM
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#27
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 21 2016, 04:02 PM) Boris Johnson will be campaigning for Boris Johnson, as he always does. Perhaps the Tories who kept calling Gordon Brown indecisive could explain whether the ego's delay is due to i) dithering; or ii) weighing up which side best served his political ambitions. article in "i" today suggests firmly that it's the latter, being as he's brought up in Brussels, has family and family pensions from the EU, married a Belgian and has always publicly supported the EU (and reportedly in private). Either that or he's joining with farage in trying to get his wife chucked out of the country along with the 2 million Brits living in the EU being chucked out of those countries (no longer having a right to stay and all). Great, suddenly the UK will have 2 million returning countrymen to find houses for, jobs for, while all of our imports cost more and exports get taxed by our biggest market. The Out brigade seem to optimistically be under the illusion that we can negotiate new deals one by one. That will take years, and the likes of Norway have to pay through the nose to access the EU market while having no say. Johnson has been described by the former leftish-of-centre Tory MP Jerry Hayes as a "copper-bottomed, hypocritical little shit". He was the amusing chap who also said he couldn't support New Labour as they were "too right wing". I do enjoy his quotes, he seemed to get right up the noses of the establishment.  |
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Feb 24 2016, 03:48 PM
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#28
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Feb 24 2016, 02:08 PM) article in "i" today suggests firmly that it's the latter, being as he's brought up in Brussels, has family and family pensions from the EU, married a Belgian and has always publicly supported the EU (and reportedly in private). Either that or he's joining with farage in trying to get his wife chucked out of the country along with the 2 million Brits living in the EU being chucked out of those countries (no longer having a right to stay and all). Great, suddenly the UK will have 2 million returning countrymen to find houses for, jobs for, while all of our imports cost more and exports get taxed by our biggest market. The Out brigade seem to optimistically be under the illusion that we can negotiate new deals one by one. That will take years, and the likes of Norway have to pay through the nose to access the EU market while having no say. Johnson has been described by the former leftish-of-centre Tory MP Jerry Hayes as a "copper-bottomed, hypocritical little shit". He was the amusing chap who also said he couldn't support New Labour as they were "too right wing". I do enjoy his quotes, he seemed to get right up the noses of the establishment. Mondays headline in the Independent - Out For Himself - summed it up very well in just three words. Despite the fact that most of the press dutifully licked a certain part of Johnson's anatomy, one Tory MP tried to claim that he had been given a rough ride by the press since his latest publicity stunt. |
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Mar 10 2016, 01:40 PM
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#29
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BuzzJack Legend
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Been a while since anyone commented as various headlines front the rag pages. Latest is the Queen is quoted as being anti-EU. This smacks of desperation from the anti-EU brigade on the grounds that there are many many statistics and examples coming out from many quarters, largely fairly sane opinions, of what could be problems and the consequences with a Brexit. There are as yet no concrete or sane examples of why it would be good for the country to leave the EU, just lots of bitter quotes about pro-EU propaganda from those trying peddle Brexit propaganda. Sort of like a spoilt child not getting their way.
If anyone can spot any examples that are being talked about with convincing reasons to leave the EU, and that will be of benefit to the vast majority of the people in the UK I'd be interested to see them. As far as I can see (so far) they tend to be: a) we can control our borders against low-paid Europeans coming over here (plenty of low-paid non-Europeans around though, so I don't really see the logic). By borders they mean those with an EU passport, though that won't stop EU people coming over for English Language schools, working for EU companies (those that don't pack up and move) or any foreign companies (ditto) or filling a gap in the workforce (eg farm workers and cleaners). Nigel Farage: I'm probably incorrectly paraphrasing here, but it seems to be "I don't want any foreigners coming over here (except for my wife and the rich ones)" Boris: as above: "Harrumph, cough waffle, I'm totally against, harrumph, mumble, anything that stops me, harrumph, becoming, mumble, Prime Minister" All posh rich Tories: "I'm utterly against anything that stops me getting richer (such as EU legislation that aims to protect low-paid workers and various right-wing legislation we have a much better chance of getting through while the opposition is a shambles" b) Everything will be milk and honey once we are free to trade with the rest of the world on our own terms (which, of course, we already can do) c) God Save The Queen, bloody foreigners, good old days, what, what, what, where's my monocle, bloody Poles taking all the jobs living on benefits, spongers, breeding like flies, stupid poor people, rich know what's best, I'm a bigot, I don't understand anything, I'm bitter and mad as hell about something and want someone to blame especially foreigners. I think that sums it up. NO actual statistics needed.... |
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Mar 10 2016, 06:56 PM
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#30
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 feminist icon
Pronouns: she/her
Joined: 21 April 2015 Posts: 25,350 User: 21,777 
      
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Mar 10 2016, 01:40 PM) If anyone can spot any examples that are being talked about with convincing reasons to leave the EU, and that will be of benefit to the vast majority of the people in the UK I'd be interested to see them. we've been discussing this today in politics! To clarify, I am pro-Europe but I can understand the actual case for exiting the EU, and there is of course a sensible case for it, even for our "younger generation!". HOWEVER, all I'm seeing in the media is pathetic attempts at scaremongering, I don't think I've had one article pop up which actually deals with the exit campaign in a sensible way. This is the first political event myself and most of my friends will be able to vote on, but at the moment it really saddens me how little most of my peers actually know about the EU. Many of them think it's as clear cut as "do we want foreigners (  ) or "do we want easy trade".
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Mar 10 2016, 07:36 PM
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#31
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BuzzJack Legend
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QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Mar 10 2016, 06:56 PM) we've been discussing this today in politics! To clarify, I am pro-Europe but I can understand the actual case for exiting the EU, and there is of course a sensible case for it, even for our "younger generation!". HOWEVER, all I'm seeing in the media is pathetic attempts at scaremongering, I don't think I've had one article pop up which actually deals with the exit campaign in a sensible way. This is the first political event myself and most of my friends will be able to vote on, but at the moment it really saddens me how little most of my peers actually know about the EU. Many of them think it's as clear cut as "do we want foreigners ( ) or "do we want easy trade".It's good it's being discussed, that's impressive and positive! I think there's a whole section of the population young and older that are so used to Boris Johnson's scandal-mongering EU lies (and they were all made up) about EU daft legislation headlining the Rags year after year that they have come to believe the rubbish. Sadly, if you say something enough people start repeating it as fact, and the very rich owners of the press are very good at ongoing campaigns against anything that affects their profits and power. Plus, a lot of people just switch off as soon as politics comes on and just find something more interesting to think about instead
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Mar 10 2016, 08:08 PM
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#32
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BuzzJack Legend
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The joke is that Iain Duncan Smith accused the In campaign of scaremongering, largely for committing the mortal sin of asking the Out campaign some questions and expecting answers. This is from a man whose party's election campaign last year spent two weeks doing little other than frightening people by warning about the possibility of the SNP playing a role in government. Just to add to his hypocrisy, he made this claim in an article in the Daily Mail. That would be the same Daily Mail that would struggle to fill a single page if they didn't have any scaremongering stories.
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Mar 10 2016, 08:24 PM
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#33
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 I Drink Wine
Joined: 12 April 2015
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Both campaigns are guilty of scaremongering, hyperbole, made up facts and generally operating a negative campaign. Why can't we have a sensible and POSITIVE campaign discussing the benefits of both being In and Out and way up which benefits Britain more? It's no wonder people don't care about politics when all the politicians do is bitch about each other and "warn" about how "dangerous" the other side is. It happened at the general election and it's happening again now.
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Mar 10 2016, 08:34 PM
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#34
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feminist icon
Pronouns: she/her
Joined: 21 April 2015 Posts: 25,350 User: 21,777
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YES it's so annoying seeing people my age already so disillusioned by politics and our politicians, when in reality it's really such an exciting and ever changing topic. I really hoped this referendum would make other people in the sixth form more excited about politics, but people just don't seem to care
 Back in the general election, everybody only ever seemed to care about the new funny video of Miliband what had come out, no one ever discussed actual policy. This is probably a rant I need to save for another time/thread though Back to the EU, I'm still laughing over the Sun claiming to have witnessed a "bust up" between the Queen and Clegg 
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Mar 10 2016, 08:40 PM
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#35
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BuzzJack Legend
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The In side have every right to ask the Out side some pertinent questions. After all, the Outies are the ones advocating change. However, they should also concentrate on the positive side of being in the EU. They need to start listing the things the EU has given us. If they want to do it in a Python-style manner, that's fine.
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Mar 10 2016, 08:50 PM
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#36
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
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People talk about negative campaigning as if it's this awful thing with no redeeming attributes whatsoever. For all that everyone pisses on about 'Project Fear' in the Scottish referendum - well, were not all the claims screeched about as 'scaremongering' proven wildly accurate in the end? If something is going to make someone worse off and sticking with the status quo will leave them better off, that's a perfectly legitimate campaign to have. It's down to the other side to demonstrate why the fears are unfounded.
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Mar 10 2016, 09:20 PM
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#37
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BuzzJack Legend
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Which is why they have resorted to slagging off - there are few examples they can absolutely give where things would improve, so they don't even bother trying knowing they would look like laughing stocks. The BBC tried to do an impartial piece about science in the EU today (the UK has a net gain of 2billion a year for science from the EU) so they dragged out a scientist (no idea who he is or what he does) who thinks that leaving the UK would free up scientists to help the economy boom by allowing business to be free from red-tape. No actual example of this "red tape", nor how it stops investment in the UK, of course. Nor how not having red tape would magically create money from somewhere to put into new industry created by these new inventions that haven't yet been invented.
The words, straws, at and grasping spring to mind. That's a "scientist" for you (well at least one not agreeing with the Science Industry that gain billions from the EU, creates jobs for Brits and allows the UK to bring in EU scientists pretty easily and play a significant role in work for the mutual benefit of Mankind. Selfish bast*rds!) |
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Mar 10 2016, 09:23 PM
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#38
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#38BBE0 otherwise known as 'sky blue'
Joined: 27 October 2008
Posts: 16,168 User: 7,561
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Pre-sactly. Scotland would be bankrupt - we have already seen the capitulation of the property market in Aberdeen now that the funny oil money has run out, and that is WITH government intervention. UK government, not the Scottish btw.
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Mar 10 2016, 09:35 PM
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#39
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BuzzJack Legend
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We constantly hear people whinging about "red tape", but we rarely hear them being challenged to give an example. On the odd occasion somebody has tried to determine where these people get their figures from, they have to include, for example, the cost of a statutory holiday entitlement. I'm sure most people would consider that to be a right worth having rather than unnecessary red tape.
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Mar 11 2016, 01:13 PM
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#40
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 22,798 User: 17,376
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Boris is at it again:
BBC: Mayor of London Boris Johnson has said leaving the EU is a "win-win for all of us", urging those backing exit to "hold our nerve and vote for freedom". Speaking in a factory in Kent, Mr Johnson said the EU was an anachronism which "costs us a huge amount of money and subverts our democracy". He insisted there were no downsides from leaving the EU, joking the "only thing we have to fear is fear itself". This is highly emotional language: "freedom" "nerve" "subverts" and the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, quoting (rather stupidly) a very leftwing US President socially. That country was in a huge depression, this one risks going into a similar one (we havent recovered yet from the last one) thanks to idiots peddling bullshit like Johnson. Things will be perfectly fine for the rich, of course, no matter what, because they are rich and their money is most likely stacked safe in tax havens. We, the not-rich, have plenty to fear if the economy goes belly-up, just as we've had our way of life go downhill over the last decade thanks to the last lot of greedy rich tosspots. We are not shackled, we have greater freedoms in society than at any time in our history (trust those of us old enough to recall when we were persecuted based on who we fancy, or being the wrong colour, or wrong religion. In terms of cost, freedom isn't free. part 2... But in a further boost for the Leave campaign, the head of the Conservative group of MEPs in the European Parliament, Syed Kamall, has said he believes the UK "could forge a better life outside" the EU. Mr Kamall, who also heads the pan-European ECR group, said he believed a "fair and balanced" immigration policy was only possible outside the EU. the first quote is wishful thinking with no substance, the second is another way of saying "the right sort of immigrants". His party, of course, has appointed a governor from Canada, and Boris is singing the praises of Canadian foreign policy (which is with the EU, and which he wants to opt out of thinking the UK could get the same deal on its own - no it won't. The EU will not be co-operative, because to allow the UK to get off Scot-free would put the whole EU at risk if other nations thought they stood to gain from leaving and getting an improved deal). So, apparently Canadians are the ideal sort of immigrants that we want more of (unless we want to marry them of course, Mr Farage and Mr Johnson). Funny, Canada was a hugely popular destination for IMMIGRANTS! T. T. S. A W. (anagram). |
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