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 The Middle East Today |
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 22nd July 2006, 11:05 AM
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#21
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 12,423 User: 7 
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I can't reply fully at the moment as have to go out shortly, I will reply fully later but with regards Lebanon Lebanon is in the pocket of the Syrians who along with Iran are the biggest threat to Israel in the region, the Syrians have missiles trained on Israel from the Golan Heights just ready to launch into Israeli cities, Syria sponsor Hamas and Hezbollah and use Lebanon for training camps for terrorists and provides accomodation for terrorists so Syria/Palestine/Lebanon are all working as one
I feel that Olmert has every right to flush out and destroy the terrorists on Lebanese soil, not long after Ariel Sharon's illness Olmert asked Lebanon to cease training camps and sheltering Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists and Lebanon did not listen and with the rocket attacks on Haifa that killed dozens of Israelis Olmert decided enough was enough and decided that if Lebanon did not sort out the terorists on its soil Israel would do it themselves which I think is the correct thing to do I will reply fully to the rest later but just wanted to clarify my position on the Lebanon issue |
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22nd July 2006, 11:12 AM
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#22
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 Always wear a clean pair of knickers, cos you never know when th
Joined: 12 March 2006
Posts: 18,586 User: 190
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 22 2006, 12:06 PM)  I can't reply fully at the moment as have to go out shortly, I will reply fully later but with regards Lebanon Lebanon is in the pocket of the Syrians  WRONG!!!! In case you missed it mate, Syrian troops were kicked out of Lebanon last year, and Syria were NOT very happy about that....... Even Bush and Blair dont see Lebanon as being a problem...... Can't believe you're falling for that Zionist tripe. The Govt in Lebanon has no dealings with Hizbollah, and Hizbollah itself does not take part in Govt, so bombing the c**p out of Beirut is gonna do nowt but cause havoc to ordinary Lebanese and destroys infrastructure which adversely affects the Lebanese Govt's ability to effectively run the country... |
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22nd July 2006, 01:47 PM
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#23
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im all clares!
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 16,421 User: 5
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not sure of the history of the area, but i thought palestine was a country/state in biblical times....
as for the jews being hated for a hundered years? (mentioned previous), they have been hated for thousands of years. historically the jews (with or without justification) have always seemed to rub up other nations the wrong way..... time to start asking why?...lol. |
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24th July 2006, 06:20 PM
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#24
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Always wear a clean pair of knickers, cos you never know when th
Joined: 12 March 2006
Posts: 18,586 User: 190
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QUOTE(mushymanrob @ Jul 22 2006, 02:48 PM) not sure of the history of the area, but i thought palestine was a country/state in biblical times.... as for the jews being hated for a hundered years? (mentioned previous), they have been hated for thousands of years. historically the jews (with or without justification) have always seemed to rub up other nations the wrong way..... time to start asking why?...lol. Well, there was the Persian Empire which ruled over the area known as Palestine for almost 400 years, but that was fellow Arabs, fellow Muslims, not outsiders and from all historical accounts the Persians allowed their satellite provinces a good deal of autonomy and freedom, certainly a hell of a lot more than Britain and France allowed its colonies.... The facts of this whole thing are that for decades the US (and UK as well..) has vetoed any and all resolutions passed by the UN which could censure or force Israel to change its ways, it's little wonder the Palestinians are pissed off and have totally run out of patience; the Palestinians feel - and with justification IMO - that the UN and the international scene in general, favours Israel no matter how many human rights abuses or war crimes it inflicts on the Arabs. If the UN and the international scene was seen to be punishing or exerting the same sort of economic and political sanctions it did on Iraq, Libya or South Africa, then I very much doubt you'd have event half the Islamic terrorist problem that exists now. By not punishing Israel in the same way we punished Islamic nations for perceived transgressions we have opened the door to the likes of Al Qaeda and Hamas to win spectacular propaganda coups. The West is seen as being hypocrits by the Islamists, and frankly, they have a point... The Zionist lobby is incredibly powerful in UK, European and US politics, they buy politicians, Senators, Congressmen and MPs, they can buy themselves seats in Parliament ("Lord Levy" being one very obvious recent example...) and they use this influence and power-brokering to lobby for Pro-Zionist causes... I dont really approve of suicide bombing or blowing up buses in Tel Aviv, but I sure as hell understand the frustration and anger that leads to it, and yes, Isreal has totally brought it on itself - you reap what you sow at the end of the day - Israel sowed decades of hatred and violence against the Arab people and made absolutely no attempt to treat their Arab neighbours as equals or even with any dignity or respect. Quite the opposite, they acted like the murdering Imperialist racist scum that they are and they expected the natives to actually be happy to be shat all over....  Personally, I hope someday Israel gets what's coming to it, the same way Britain got kicked out of India and Africa; the same way the French got kicked out of Algeria and Morocco... |
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24th July 2006, 06:25 PM
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#25
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 12,423 User: 7
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Palestine is not a nation or a country though, its not like Iraq invading Kuwait etc Palestine is not a country and is not recognised by the UN it is just a piece of land that some displaced nomadic arabs live on that has its own elected assembly
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24th July 2006, 06:31 PM
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#26
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Always wear a clean pair of knickers, cos you never know when th
Joined: 12 March 2006
Posts: 18,586 User: 190
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 24 2006, 07:26 PM) Palestine is not a nation or a country though, its not like Iraq invading Kuwait etc Palestine is not a country and is not recognised by the UN it is just a piece of land that some displaced nomadic arabs live on that has its own elected assembly And dont you think that's maybe the problem Craig...? The fact that the Palestinians do not have their own country and are being lorded over by a bunch of fukkin' outsiders who dont even attempt to understand their cultural heritage....? It's the same mistake we made in Ireland in the 20s, splitting up the country, divide and rule, all that bullsh!t, Cheers Mr Lloyd fukkin' George....  The Brits actually expected the Free Irish to be happy about being some bloody devolved parliament and not the free elected Irish Parliament of 1919... |
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24th July 2006, 06:48 PM
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#27
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 12,423 User: 7
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Its a while since I have done history Scott and I really should know being of Jewish extraction but am probably wrong but didn't Palestine only come about because the Romans (Hadrian
 annexed Jewish territory and expelled the Jews from the region so if I am correct then historically that land belongs to the jews in the same way as historically the Falklands belongs to Argentina etc I think the Roman emperor changed the name of that region from Judea to Syria Palestinia Plus didn't the Arabs reject the UN partition plan and attack Israel when Israel accepted the partition ? |
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25th July 2006, 07:28 AM
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#28
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im all clares!
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 16,421 User: 5
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 24 2006, 07:26 PM) Palestine is not a nation or a country though, its not like Iraq invading Kuwait etc Palestine is not a country and is not recognised by the UN it is just a piece of land that some displaced nomadic arabs live on that has its own elected assembly oh well in that case blow the buggers to bits then
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25th July 2006, 07:50 AM
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#29
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Always wear a clean pair of knickers, cos you never know when th
Joined: 12 March 2006
Posts: 18,586 User: 190
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QUOTE(Ozzy Osbourne @ Jul 24 2006, 07:49 PM) Plus didn't the Arabs reject the UN partition plan and attack Israel when Israel accepted the partition ? Why the hell should the Arabs have accepted partition when they got the sh!t end of the stick out of it? Of course the Israelis accepted it because it totally favoured them, gave them all the best land for developing and farming, etc and the Arabs just got crapped on and displaced off land which they had had for almost 2000 years. Anyway, it was the Brits and the French that did most of the carving up of land in the Middle East under the European Mandate that ran from the 20s to the late 40s.... And just because some bloody Roman general did a dirty on the Jews over 2000 years ago doesn't give these Imperialist Zionist b/astards the right to do the same thing under the caveat of incredibly dubious Biblical references regarding "the promised land" to the Palestininans 2000 years later mate... Or do two wrongs make a right in your world? You cant compare this issue to the sodding Falklands Craig, everyone there is a British citizen and can easily come home to the UK... |
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14th June 2013, 06:28 PM
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#30
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2014 Buzzjack Waste Of Sperm Champion
Joined: 3 February 2012
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Those of you that have Sky digital i would suggest that you watch Channel 4+1 at 8pm. There is an incredible documentary about a British man who became a Jihadist and fought in Syria.
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14th June 2013, 08:05 PM
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#31
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 2,198 User: 18,849
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What is going on in Syria is clearly dreadful but it is not our job to get involved, Iraq and Afghanistan has put us in the firing line for terrorism and Egypt and Libya 'liberation' have hardly been successes, extremists and tribes rule the roost now.
Even just supplying arms is going to cause us problems in years to come. Assad, unsavoury though he is is a better bet than having Al Qaeda and other extremists have control over the country. Hope Assad wins this conflict, not because I like him but the alternatives will make the region way more unstable. |
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15th June 2013, 06:03 PM
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#32
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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Libya and Egypt aren't ruled by extremists or tribes - get your facts straight. The people in charge of both countries are broadly moderate Islamist economic liberals - hardly extremist control (you may as well call Germany's Christian Democrats extremist), especially given the hardline Islamic parties didn't win the elections there. And given the governments were democratically elected, I'm not quite sure why you're adding apostrophes to liberation.
The alternatives to Assad will only make the region unstable if the hardline Islamists take control out of the various factions opposing him - by no means a certainty. Morally - given Assad is using sarin gas against his own people - I think the case for intervention is far too strong to ignore now. *cue wanky Stop The War Coalition-style 'neo-imperialism!' argument from someone or the other* |
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15th June 2013, 06:36 PM
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#33
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 13 May 2013
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QUOTE(Kanduälska @ Jun 15 2013, 07:03 PM) Libya and Egypt aren't ruled by extremists or tribes - get your facts straight. The people in charge of both countries are broadly moderate Islamist economic liberals - hardly extremist control (you may as well call Germany's Christian Democrats extremist), especially given the hardline Islamic parties didn't win the elections there. And given the governments were democratically elected, I'm not quite sure why you're adding apostrophes to liberation. The alternatives to Assad will only make the region unstable if the hardline Islamists take control out of the various factions opposing him - by no means a certainty. Morally - given Assad is using sarin gas against his own people - I think the case for intervention is far too strong to ignore now. *cue wanky Stop The War Coalition-style 'neo-imperialism!' argument from someone or the other* Egypt is ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood, if they are not extremists I would hate to see what your definition of extremist is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood if you think Egypt is a better and safer place with these wackos in charge whatever floats your boat but these guys are only marginally better than the taliban. Libya is hopelessly divided, remember the farce about Gadaffi's son and his arrest? one tribe refusing to hand him over to another, Libya is a very unstable place. Extremists get a foothold in Syria post Assad then god help the region, Al Qaeda or Hezbollah suddenly deciding to fire some of those missiles Syria has on the Golan Heights at Israel would cause severe problems, Assad unpleasant though he is is unlikely to attack Israel, the extremists would in a heartbeat. |
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15th June 2013, 06:59 PM
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#34
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2014 Buzzjack Waste Of Sperm Champion
Joined: 3 February 2012
Posts: 4,416 User: 16,230
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QUOTE(Stackin Them P @ Jun 14 2013, 07:28 PM) Those of you that have Sky digital i would suggest that you watch Channel 4+1 at 8pm. There is an incredible documentary about a British man who became a Jihadist and fought in Syria. This is the documentary i was talking about. It was on the Channel 4 news programme yesterday: |
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15th June 2013, 07:30 PM
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#35
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Sandro Ranieri @ Jun 15 2013, 07:36 PM) Egypt is ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood, if they are not extremists I would hate to see what your definition of extremist is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood if you think Egypt is a better and safer place with these wackos in charge whatever floats your boat but these guys are only marginally better than the taliban. Libya is hopelessly divided, remember the farce about Gadaffi's son and his arrest? one tribe refusing to hand him over to another, Libya is a very unstable place. Extremists get a foothold in Syria post Assad then god help the region, Al Qaeda or Hezbollah suddenly deciding to fire some of those missiles Syria has on the Golan Heights at Israel would cause severe problems, Assad unpleasant though he is is unlikely to attack Israel, the extremists would in a heartbeat. What, just like those so-called Egyptian 'extremists' have attacked Israel in a heartbeat? Oh. My idea of extremist would be the Salafist al-Nour Party. The Freedom and Justice Party - related to the Muslim Brotherhood, not the same thing as the Muslim Brotherhood (it's like saying the Labour Party and trade unions are one and the same - close links, but not quite) - has no massive truck with women's rights (though not exactly ideal on them, thinking a woman shouldn't run for President), the free market or Christians, and supports the Israeli peace treaty. Far more than just 'marginally better' than the Taliban. The best comparison between al-Nour and the Freedom and Justice Party would probably be the same relationship between UKIP and the Conservatives, except in Islamist terms. I think it says it all that Israel's relations with Egypt have by and large remained smooth since the transition. Unlike you, I prefer to base my assessment of Libyan politics on more than just one or two cherrypicked examples. Someone by the same token could've gone 'remember those riots the other year? That and that guy getting beheaded in the middle of a street, the UK must be a proper unstable mess at the moment' if they applied the same logic. It's not perfectly stable - find me many places that are two years after a wholesale revolution - but it's democratic and on the road towards modern liberal democracy rather than hardline Islamism as you imply. That's a damn sight better than the situation under Gaddafi. |
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15th June 2013, 07:46 PM
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#36
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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Do we even really know that Assad is using chemical weapons though? Didn't one of the top UN officials say a few weeks ago that she believed it was actually the opposition who was using them? And even if it was proven that the opposition winning would be "a good thing", it's still hard to see how anything the West could do would help them anyway. Any intervention still looks like it would be insanity.
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15th June 2013, 08:37 PM
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#37
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 2,198 User: 18,849
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QUOTE(Kanduälska @ Jun 15 2013, 08:30 PM) What, just like those so-called Egyptian 'extremists' have attacked Israel in a heartbeat? Oh. My idea of extremist would be the Salafist al-Nour Party. The Freedom and Justice Party - related to the Muslim Brotherhood, not the same thing as the Muslim Brotherhood (it's like saying the Labour Party and trade unions are one and the same - close links, but not quite) - has no massive truck with women's rights (though not exactly ideal on them, thinking a woman shouldn't run for President), the free market or Christians, and supports the Israeli peace treaty. Far more than just 'marginally better' than the Taliban. The best comparison between al-Nour and the Freedom and Justice Party would probably be the same relationship between UKIP and the Conservatives, except in Islamist terms. I think it says it all that Israel's relations with Egypt have by and large remained smooth since the transition. Unlike you, I prefer to base my assessment of Libyan politics on more than just one or two cherrypicked examples. Someone by the same token could've gone 'remember those riots the other year? That and that guy getting beheaded in the middle of a street, the UK must be a proper unstable mess at the moment' if they applied the same logic. It's not perfectly stable - find me many places that are two years after a wholesale revolution - but it's democratic and on the road towards modern liberal democracy rather than hardline Islamism as you imply. That's a damn sight better than the situation under Gaddafi. I am not an apologist for middle eastern dictators, shed no tears when Hussein and Gaddafi were executed or Mubarak arrested nor will I shed any if Assad is killed or arrested but ultimately it is not our business to get involved, we should let these nations sort their problems out themselves. We poke our nose into Syria then we are a sitting duck for homegrown extremists to attack us again. 7/7, 21/7, Glasgow, the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby were as a direct result of us getting involved in nations that are not our business and last thing we need is Assad loyalists letting off bombs in the UK. We should stay well out of Syria even as an arms supplier. |
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16th June 2013, 11:29 AM
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#38
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jun 15 2013, 08:46 PM) Do we even really know that Assad is using chemical weapons though? Didn't one of the top UN officials say a few weeks ago that she believed it was actually the opposition who was using them? And even if it was proven that the opposition winning would be "a good thing", it's still hard to see how anything the West could do would help them anyway. Any intervention still looks like it would be insanity. I'd broadly trust the French government on this one, given there's no clear reason why they would wish to intervene. In any case - need the obvious parallel with Libya of a no-fly zone (or even going further and deploying targeted air strikes on Syrian regime military installations) be cited as something we could obviously do to help? Sandro - make your mind up: are the extremist Islamists on the rebel side or the pro-Assad side? There's not really much of a record of loyalists to a regime launching a terror attack on any nation after that regime was toppled, or even the threat of it. (Hey, I suppose we should be keeping an eye open for those Gaddafi loyalists then, eh?) |
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16th June 2013, 12:27 PM
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#39
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 2,198 User: 18,849
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QUOTE(Kanduälska @ Jun 16 2013, 12:29 PM) I'd broadly trust the French government on this one, given there's no clear reason why they would wish to intervene. In any case - need the obvious parallel with Libya of a no-fly zone (or even going further and deploying targeted air strikes on Syrian regime military installations) be cited as something we could obviously do to help? Sandro - make your mind up: are the extremist Islamists on the rebel side or the pro-Assad side? There's not really much of a record of loyalists to a regime launching a terror attack on any nation after that regime was toppled, or even the threat of it. (Hey, I suppose we should be keeping an eye open for those Gaddafi loyalists then, eh?) Lockerbie, the murder of WPC Fletcher, they have already happened, incidents where Gaddafi loyalists have caused terrorism on British soil, these happened while he was alive but for example the Lockerbie bombing was a revenge attack for America bombing Tripoli 2 years before Lockerbie. We weren't involved in the bombing of Tripoli by Reagan but were seen as Americas closest ally so double whammy, USA airliner blown up over British mainland, so we had associates of a mad dictator letting off bombs in revenge for attacking him so what is to say it won't happen again with Syria if we get involved in stuff that is not our business? I have 2 concerns with Assad being toppled. 1) Extremists taking control who want a conflict with Israel 2) UK being attacked by Syrian agents in revenge for bringing down Assad, you deny it will happen but Lockerbie showed it could |
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16th June 2013, 07:11 PM
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#40
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,676 User: 3,272
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Ah yes, Lockerbie. The incident that was initially blamed on Syria until Assad père sided with the US over the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Then, in a move remarkably reminiscent of 1984, the blame suddenly switched to Libya and the Syrian connection was instantly forgotten.
As for the bombing of Tripoli by Reagan, the planes took off from the UK which required UK agreement. That fits my definition of being involved. |
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