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 Trump, IMPOTUS, The trial of the century |
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 1st February 2020, 09:15 AM
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#61
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272 
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I’m sure even now there are people charged with murder wondering whether they can prevent the prosecution calling any witnesses in their trial.
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1st February 2020, 09:20 AM
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#62
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929             |
QUOTE(tommie @ Feb 1 2020, 09:03 AM)  Let's be honest here - if it was the other way around the Democrats wouldn't be voting to impeach their President. It's the issue of going through two chambers where both have a majority in each. Politicans don't tend to be very pragmatic in general and will vote what'll help their cause best. Then you have the fact that the US is still hanging on to an outdated 230+ year old constitution like it's a religious text to help decide everything on. No, there's a lot you can criticise the Democratic party on but you'll rarely find them playing unfair, often to their detriment. In the reverse situation there would have been a lot more 'moderate' Democrats willing to hear witnesses, so they'd have heard those, and that would have convinced even more and likely remove, Democrats are still playing the game of gentleman's politics that saw Nixon resign and rightfully acquit Bill Clinton as his offense was so minor. Republicans have stopped doing that because they realise that tightly banding together under 'my side is right no question' creates a stronger voting bloc and an easier time of winning elections. Just look at how the recent Supreme Court nominees have been done to see how the parties are different. Obama nominated a milquetoast compromise candidate in Garland despite the Republicans saying they would not accept any Democratic nominee 'in an election year', and all Obama did in response was to create an ineffective shame counter. Then the instant the Republicans get into power, they confirm their candidate in double quick time and shove through a second on a timely retirement despite a highly publicised court case that cast great doubt on his (Kavanaugh) character. The Republicans know that holding control of the Supreme Court is politically valuable, so they don't waste time being weak about it, while the Democrats value appearing to have the high ground. I have no doubt that if a current Democratic President had done what Trump has done, there would have been enough Democrat Senators to voting to remove him. |
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1st February 2020, 09:28 AM
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#63
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
In fact the Democrats are so good at being manipulated by bad faith actors that I would think it highly likely that the next Democratic President (if a moderate) to suffer a scandal will resign 'to show the American people they are better than Trump', immediately before the next version of a Republican terror president wins at the ballot box.
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1st February 2020, 11:23 AM
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#64
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 BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 7 January 2009
Posts: 7,064 User: 8,073
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The point wasn't as to whose worse (though I think it's a bit of a mistake to think there's such a thing as "Honest Abe" politicians), but as the entire US system for handling this sort of thing is completely f***ed. As long as the President has majority in one of the chambers/houses the probability of them being impeached is basically miniscule barring an actual genocide. And that's not even get into the complete lack of procedure where they can deny basic things as getting to call witnesses at all - sure, at regular trials lawyers try to stop witnesses from testifying for various of legal reasons, but there's no such thing as completely stopping the prosecution from even calling them.
At the end of the day, the biggest issue for the US is that their constitution is 230+ years old and wasn't ever intended to handle issues in the 2020s, yet it's treated like a holy document that can't be changed despite most modern day countries who have one try to keep theirs up to date. |
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1st February 2020, 11:51 AM
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#65
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
I agree with you on the constitution point, it was never designed to handle people being more loyal to their party over the country. It does need to be altered to combat the backslide away from a democracy that this presidency has caused.
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1st February 2020, 02:05 PM
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#66
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 22,001 User: 53
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Has anyone heard of this. Some US political experts think that a President should not be impeached, even if he's done something wrong, if he believes he was right to do it or if he thought it was for the good of the country.
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1st February 2020, 02:07 PM
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#67
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 22,001 User: 53
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Feb 1 2020, 11:51 AM) I agree with you on the constitution point, it was never designed to handle people being more loyal to their party over the country. It does need to be altered to combat the backslide away from a democracy that this presidency has caused. The Dems just want to try and remove Trump this way as they don't think any of their candidates can do so at the ballot box in November. There you have it in a nutshell. |
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1st February 2020, 02:25 PM
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#68
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thanks for being a sarcy lil bitch
Joined: 25 September 2007
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QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Feb 1 2020, 05:05 PM) Has anyone heard of this. Some US political experts think that a President should not be impeached, even if he's done something wrong, if he believes he was right to do it or if he thought it was for the good of the country. President: omg i thought it was the right thing to dewww Everyone: okay go back to work don't kill anyone else lol This post has been edited by *CENSORED*: 1st February 2020, 02:25 PM |
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1st February 2020, 02:30 PM
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#69
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Radical Pink Troll
Joined: 11 March 2006
Posts: 26,607 User: 177
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The end justifies the means does it?
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1st February 2020, 02:32 PM
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#70
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Feb 1 2020, 02:07 PM) The Dems just want to try and remove Trump this way as they don't think any of their candidates can do so at the ballot box in November. There you have it in a nutshell. Bit too simplistic of an explanation (as you are wont to do). The DNC top end undoubtedly thinks that putting up a moderate candidate like Biden will make the population 'see sense', as flawed as that obviously is, that's the liberal orthodoxy for you. Plus if this impeachment was a sham case, it involves their candidate to a potentially detrimental extent. I have no doubt that the allegations are real and they warrant a removal. In fact I would bet the DNC thinks that whatever candidate they put up they will beat Trump, unless it's the one candidate (Sanders) who's actually doing the best in head-to-heads against Trump because what does energy matter in a campaign, they'll focus on his supposed radical nature without realising that promising a departure from political wrangling and populism is actually becoming a vote winner. Their participation in the impeachment process I have no trouble believing is them thinking they're doing the best for democracy, at least they're trying. |
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1st February 2020, 04:56 PM
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#71
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Buffy/Charmed
Joined: 18 April 2013
Posts: 44,119 User: 18,639
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Trump has forever cheapened the presidency, and that stupid defence of, anything the president does is in thr national interest, is the worst "argument" I have ever heard. It is basically dictatorship spiel at this point. Democracy has been bought and gamed by oligarchs, and we have lost it.
He should have been removed over this, but we all knew - even common sense, as much as he tried not to admit it so he could pretend to be shocked - that this trial was a sham that would end up protecting a sham president. He is worse than Nixon. |
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1st February 2020, 05:24 PM
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#72
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Feb 1 2020, 02:07 PM) The Dems just want to try and remove Trump this way as they don't think any of their candidates can do so at the ballot box in November. There you have it in a nutshell. Whereas the Republicans' motivation from trying to remove Clinton for lying about a blow job was...? |
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1st February 2020, 05:35 PM
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#73
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 22,001 User: 53
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 1 2020, 05:24 PM) Whereas the Republicans' motivation from trying to remove Clinton for lying about a blow job was...? Clinton was impeached in 1998 during his second term so couldn't stand again in 2000. |
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1st February 2020, 05:55 PM
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#74
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Crazy Chris @ Feb 1 2020, 05:35 PM) Clinton was impeached in 1998 during his second term so couldn't stand again in 2000. I'm well aware of that. However, only someone completely deluded could claim that the move was not an attempt to do something they failed to do at the ballot box. |
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2nd February 2020, 01:03 PM
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#75
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272
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It is now being reported that Trump's lawyers have, over the last few months, contributed to the campaign funds of several Republican senators. We can, therefore, add bribing the jury to the list of things that are, apparently, acceptable in an impeachment trial.
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2nd February 2020, 01:13 PM
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#76
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Feb 1 2020, 07:30 AM) You want it done by an electoral college instead, perhaps?  Seriously though, if not by them, then who? I'm not sure but politicians just are partisan and create this type of situation and ridicule the situation. |
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2nd February 2020, 01:17 PM
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#77
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,679 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Steve201 @ Feb 2 2020, 01:13 PM) I'm not sure but politicians just are partisan and create this type of situation and ridicule the situation. The requirement for a two-thirds majority was clearly intended to guard against a purely partisan attempt to remove a president from office. However, it was also reliant on senators acting with integrity rather than simply adopting an attitude of "my president, right or wrong". The Republicans' refusal to listen to the evidence against Trump makes a mockery of the whole process. |
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2nd February 2020, 01:57 PM
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#78
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 2 2020, 01:17 PM) The requirement for a two-thirds majority was clearly intended to guard against a purely partisan attempt to remove a president from office. However, it was also reliant on senators acting with integrity rather than simply adopting an attitude of "my president, right or wrong". The Republicans' refusal to listen to the evidence against Trump makes a mockery of the whole process. Of course, even if they had, they might not have found him guilty. |
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2nd February 2020, 04:16 PM
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#79
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,422 User: 12,929 |
The prevailing attitude/excuse from the Republicans is more along the lines of 'yes he's probably guilty, but we don't believe it was an impeachable offense'.
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2nd February 2020, 05:38 PM
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#80
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 22,001 User: 53
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Feb 2 2020, 04:16 PM) The prevailing attitude/excuse from the Republicans is more along the lines of 'yes he's probably guilty, but we don't believe it was an impeachable offense'. They're probably right too. |
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